Excuse me, sir, but, wtf am I?

[Thomas]

-takes a deep breath-
....AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!

-ahem- sorry bout that. But I'm going insane here.

I haven't been on CD for the longest time because I've been having crazy dysphoria problems coming from every direction and I really do NOT know what to do with myself. I thought time away from CD would help me on my path to understanding myself, but it hasn't, and perhaps has even made it worse.

Now before I drive you all insane with wondering what the problem is, I'll go ahead and explain.

I've already come to the realization that I do NOT want to be female. I've questioned this twenty times over and I'm pretty certain of this. But the problem at hand is... I'm not so sure I want to be male either? I don't know what's going on in my head, or what gender I'm supposed to be, and it's confusing beyond anything I've had to cope with before.

I remember when I used to cry... yes CRY (and I hardly ever do) over wishing I were a guy. I remember how ELATED I felt when I realized how much I was starting to look like a guy. And even now, when I look in the mirror and see myself as a guy, I feel confident, I feel stronger, I feel happy and... 'right'. I actually had an elderly guy call me "he" when talking to his dog about me. I was on top of the world with happiness and that huge boost in self-esteem. (Aside from my self-doubt about wondering if I'd heard him wrong and such)

It seems to me like there shouldn't be any issue here, that I'm happy being male, and that I shouldn't worry about it. But I'm so prone to questioning myself and over-analyzing everything... and it's made me so confused and torn. I really do not want to be forced to pick a gender. I don't like picking. gahhh Dx

When I think about it, I feel like a guy. I think like a guy. I feel comfortable as a guy. But there are some girly things from my past that pester me a often.

I guess the best way to describe myself is that of an effeminate guy. But I can't act feminine in this body, because then I just seem like a girl.

And then I stop and think about it and I go.. well... act feminine in what way? How can I act feminine? I don't understand shopping or makeup or the typical girly things. I never have, and when friends try to talk to me about them I get bored out of my mind. I don't understand... lol. Bear with me... this is confusing.

I know sexuality is completely unrelated to what gender I identify with, but I feel like maybe a small explanation on that subject might help show what I'm dealing with here.

I'm bisexual, but I have.. I guess, unusual tastes. I have a tendency to be attracted to really girly guys, and really guyish girls. And this messes with my head. A lot.

I love feminine guys, so I have a tendency to want to be like what I like and what I'm attracted to. But I also have a masculine side. And since I don't want to be female, the masculine girl thing is really not an option.

I have a very close friend who i've known for a couple years now. I tell him everything. But I find myself getting jealous of him a lot. He's extremely feminine, even to the point of putting bows in his long hair or crossdressing. He's not trans, he likes being a guy, but he enjoys being feminine... And I guess I'm jealous of his ability to act fem but still be a guy. I've told him this on several occasions. I feel like I so often have to over-compensate for my physical body by acting more masculine than I would like to be. Anything slightly girly that I do gets magnified tenfold and then appears ten times as girly, because the features of my physical body tend to overshadow everything I do. Sometimes I'll watch guys' body language. And I've noticed there are certain moves or stances that a guy can do but I can't, because hes a biological guy. So even if its slightly girly it still looks like a guy when he does it, but since im not a cisguy, if I do it it looks super girly. So I have to kindof compensate for my female-ness by being more of a guy then I should have to be.

Also: I'm getting really really sick of everyone thinking that I have to be all like TESTOSTERONE AND HARRY AND MUSCLES AND FARTS AND BURPS AND MANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN to be a guy inside.

But people only see what they see on the outside, they don't see what gender I am, they only see my sex. (Sex is what's between your legs, gender is what's between your ears! :D) And how can they... when I'm not even sure of myself?

And it does actually make me very uncomfortable to act girly. And sometimes even the thought of my physical body can make me so uncomfortable that it can take hours to feel okay again. Especially considering that I'm only out to my friends... and many still treat me like a girl and use the wrong pronouns and such. Sometimes I even feel required to "play the part" of a girl. Like for graduation, they had a very strict dresscode. Anyone who breaks said dresscode, would not be allowed to walk. And as much as I wanted to show up in the guy's attire, I was afraid that I would not be able to walk if I did, and since I wasn't (and still am not) "out" to everyone, I didn't want to have to explain myself or face the confused looks from my mother (even though she's often seen me in male dress clothes)

Actually... -sigh- I've given up on correcting people gender-wise. I think there are only a handful of people who actually use both my name AND the right gender pronouns. It's... rather upsetting, but I pretend like it doesn't bother me. I really got tired of how much I had to FIGHT to get people to call me the right thing. It's disheartening..

but I keep getting distracted. Back to me *NOT* knowing what gender I am.

Perhaps most of my issues come from being raised as a girl. When I was younger, I played with both boy and girl toys, and I kindof altered between being a tomboy and being a girly girl throughout my life. Kindof swinging between the two extremes, I guess. but even in my teen years (which are almost over! -le gasp-) there were signs of girlyness. Getting a pretty dress to the prom, dressing in gothic skirts and dresses and such... I don't know if this is relevant at all.. (and this is getting rather lengthy, I apologize. I'm just really confused and I don't know how to... put into words what i'm feeling)

I didn't realize I was a guy until I was like... sixteen? I guess. And I didn't come out about it until around eighteen. And I'm only nineteen now, and even more lost and confused than I was when I was discovering myself

I keep... getting pestered by girly things. Like, when I was younger I used to fantasize about my future wedding. That's one of the few girly things that kept reoccurring in my life. And right now, the thought of myself in a tux at a wedding sounds AMAZING. And I want that. But there are times when... i don't like that idea. there are times when the thought of that makes me feel... cheated. there are times when I want to be the bride, when I want the princess dress, when I want to be the center of attention and want it to be MY day. And that confuses me to no end. It shouldn't matter because I have no plans of marriage any time soon, but it's something that (stupidly) keeps bothering me. And there are things similar to this.. like I'll find a skirt in my closet that I used to be in love with.. and I'll find myself wishing I could wear it.

Perhaps most of this is fear. It's HARD to be trans, and it's scary! There will be days when I want to go on T more than anything in the world.. but it terrifies me so much that I can't act on it. And there are days where I consider surgery as a possible option for the future.. doing research and really wanting my body to be right. But there are days where thoughts like that are so horrifying that I want to run and hide from them.

And I like how I look now... only i don't like being so easilly seen as a girl. if my face was slightly more guyish it would be nice. cause i dont mind looking feminine as long as people can tell im a guy. I guess I worry that starting T will make me far more masculine than I really want. And on that note, I really want a chest. (another thing I get jealous of my friends about, being able to go shirtless and have a sexy chest) I don't like having... -cringe- boobs... at all. That's probably one of my MAIN problems with my body.. and gives me the most uncomfortable feelings about myself.

Any thought of a permenant change scares me though. And I feel trapped and confused, like I can't be who I wanna be, and like I'm being forced to make decisions that, in reality, no one but myself is making me do.

And as for the lower half of my body.. well. I don't even know what I want with that. there are days where I really want male parts. but usually I don't really like the male or the female parts, and I kindof wish I could have NO parts whatsoever. I'd rather not have a gender at all, but still somehow be able to have sexual pleasure. heh. Impossible, right?

and, admittedly, I'm scared of change. and I guess I'm also being a wimp cause I hate being trans and I hate how HARD it is.

but most of all, I hate being confused about myself. I just want to understand who I am and WHAT I am.. and it's just not getting any better...

You guys have always been such an amazing support system in the past... I don't know why I didn't come to you sooner. I think a part of me is ashamed... you all seem so sure of who you are. -sigh- anyway... any comments would be greatly appreciated

Thanks,

Thomas Michael Shrader
(I've always wanted to write that)

[7sisters]

Thomas, sending a hug your way, for now. I am just leaving the house for official work; will read this carefully later. I am glad you posted.

[DanielMacBride]

Hi Thomas,

Good to see you back on the board :) I can't give you the answer to your gender issues, but I can tell you that a very large percentage of the boys here who are so sure of who we are have also been through the whole process of questioning who we are and trying to figure out where we sit and how the hell to make it all fit into something workable. So you are not alone in that, it's pretty normal :) Feeling cheated is not unusual, either ;)

I remember right back at the start of my awareness of my gender issues, I went through a very similar thought process to yours, where I knew I wasn't fully female but didn't feel fully male at that point and didn't really know where the hell I sat - it took me a couple of months (and weekly therapy sessions with a very patient therapist who was clever enough to just sit back and give me the space to verbalise my thoughts and figure it out for myself) to work out who I am and what I needed to do, and that process has still been ongoing even though I am now almost 3 years into transition.

As it happened, when I did figure out the basics of my gender, I slid further and further towards male (lol) - but of course that may not be the case for everyone who goes through this process. What I do know though is that the boys on this board are some of the most supportive people I know, and aside from a therapist (which I strongly recommend if you can afford it at all), this board has been the biggest source of support, advice and friendship for me for the entire time I have been transitioning.

There are a few boys here who are in a similar position to you at the moment - hopefully some of them will come along and post here too :)

[Thomas]

Thanks so much. I was hoping that I wasn't that weird, cause I so often feel like I am.

And well... I do have a therapist, but I have yet to say anything to her about my gender issues. Why? Well I'm not comfortable talking about it really, and I feel as if I need to be firm in who I am before I talk to her about it, for fear that she will change my mind on stuff that I really should figure out for myself. Also, she's not... very bright, in my oppinion. I think she wouldn't understand what I'm feeling or thinking when I can barely explain it to myself, let alone to her. I've actually wanted to switch therapists because we're not that compatible, but I'm not able to, for long complicated reasons I won't go into. I will talk to her about it at some point... I have to. But we're already working on so many different issues at the moment, that I feel like throwing another huge one onto the plate is just going to make things more complicated. And... also gotta get up the guts to breach the subject. heh.

[TxKimberly]

Thomas,

The only consolation I can offer you is to assure you that you are not alone my friend. I think the majority of us probably have internal conflicts along these lines. On the flip side of the coin that you presented here, I feel whole and "right" when I present as female. There are times when I desperatly want to stay that way.
On the other hand, I want to be a a good husband and a good father and there ARE times when I enjoy being male.
I think that this sort of internal struggle is just part of the package.

[sandra-leigh]

If you doesn't feel right to you to pick a gender, then don't.

Seriously.

I was born apparently male and thought I was male until just a couple of years ago (age 47?), when I realized that I was sure I wasn't male (at least as is commonly understood), but that I also didn't feel that I was definitely a woman. I started gender therapy last fall; the therapist emphasized that I should not label myself and then act according to the label: that instead I should explore and find out what was right for me at this time. It might change, but that's normal; people keep changing.

It doesn't feel to me like I want to do SRS, but I do feel like I want to try "immersion" at some point.

To the extent that I have chosen, I have chosen "not male" -- but that doesn't mean the same thing as "female". There are androgynous people; "gender-queer" people; gender-f*ck; those who would actively work to break "the gender binary"; those who feel they are outside gender; the asexual; and a wide variety of others.

I've been many places in town (certainly everywhere around home) as a mixed-gender person, and the great majority of people treat me well. Nearly everyone still calls me "he" even when I'm in a dress (sigh) -- but on the other hand, a surprising number of people go out of their way to talk to me: in their way, welcoming me, accepting my female side. At present, the smiles and waves are more important to me than the pronouns.

[Kid Flash]

I agree with sandra-leigh, don't try and label yourself. If you think of yourself as a guy don't be ashamed to want to wear a skirt or have "girly" interests. Just try to be yourself.

I can actually relate to you A LOT because although I'm fine with being a girl, I'd also be fine with being perceived as or actually being a boy. I wouldn't care if I had to get my breasts taken out because they're really not important to me. If I got a penis, I honestly would be really weirded out but I think I'd get used to it. I like feminine and masculine things. And I have the exact same taste in people, I also really like guyish girls and girly guys. <3

I think you should get a better sense of self before doing anything that seems scary to you, wait it out, and when you're sure you want it (surgery, hormones, etc.) then go for it.

[Thomas]

Thomas,

The only consolation I can offer you is to assure you that you are not alone my friend. I think the majority of us probably have internal conflicts along these lines. On the flip side of the coin that you presented here, I feel whole and "right" when I present as female. There are times when I desperatly want to stay that way.
On the other hand, I want to be a a good husband and a good father and there ARE times when I enjoy being male.
I think that this sort of internal struggle is just part of the package.

I see. I guess I didn't realise how common it was for people to have this kindof struggle... I guess I'm still so uncertain about things that I have nothing to keep me from questioning myself all the time




If you doesn't feel right to you to pick a gender, then don't.


There are androgynous people; "gender-queer" people; gender-f*ck; those who would actively work to break "the gender binary"; those who feel they are outside gender; the asexual; and a wide variety of others.

I've thought about this.. but I don't understand much about it. I don't know enough to say if I fit any of those categories or not.

And, however, when people use the female pronoun it DOES bother me... sometimes a lot. And I don't know how else to avoid use of it unless I use the male alternative or... use some other gender-neutral pronoun, which would be even more difficult and confusing for myself or others to use.


I agree with sandra-leigh, don't try and label yourself. If you think of yourself as a guy don't be ashamed to want to wear a skirt or have "girly" interests. Just try to be yourself.


And I have the exact same taste in people, I also really like guyish girls and girly guys. <3
Your post made me laugh xD thank you, and honestly what you said there is what I'm really striving for. I really want to get to the point that I'm so confident in myself as a guy, that I can wear skirts or whatever and still be seen and feel like a guy. I'm not there yet.. and I wonder if I ever will be. but I think that's probably one of my ultimate goals.

[Tamara Croft]

I think you would get on with Ze very well, you kinda remind me of him, in his struggles etc...

I don't have any advice really, because I couldn't even imagine what you're going through. Ok, a small piece of advice, you are who you are, labels are for tins of beans :) You are a 'person', doesn't matter what sex/gender you are or can't decide... you're 19 years old, focus on being a 19 year old :D

[Sheila]

just sending you a :hugs: like Tamara I can no way know how you are feeling, but I do know how my partner reacts to this damn gender dysphoria when she is trying to be the male she needs to be on occasions, she struggles hun and she is 50, but her fem has only been back seriously for 3 years after a 28 year break.

Don't try to label you just be who you are on any given day/hour minute :hugs:

[Lex]

Wow. Seriously. It's like you walked into my brain, took my thoughts and wrote them down. Nearly everything you said is exactly how I feel. Except for the wedding stuff, because I'm not a huge fan of weddings and marraige. But everything else.

I certainly feel the same confusion, I swing from one thing to the other. As a kid I was a tomboy who didn't mind wearing dresses. At about fourteen I started presenting myself as male. At eighteen I got a breast reduction and slowly eased back into presenting myself as female, which is what I mostly do at the moment. But now I feel an almost overwhelming urge to present myself as male again. It's like every time I say, "At last, I know who I am," something else inside me decides that it's time to mess me up again by sending me in the other direction and confusing the hell out of me. It's frustrating because when I want to be male I know that I never really can be. Because I keep swinging between the two, changing my body to be male would be a bad idea. So when I want to be male it's really hard on my mind.

And coming back here after being away for so long, there are quite a few guys now on T and transitioning. And I know that that wouldn't really be an option for me but I still really, really want it.

When it comes to girly guys and guyish girls, I agree, those are definately the people I'm attracted to! I'm single at the moment and not looking for a relationship, but I'm worried that when I want one again that it will be really hard to find someone who can deal with my gender/s. With my last boyfriend, at first he was okay with me presenting as male. But we kept running into trouble with guys who'd want to pick fights with us for being gay. Because I didn't have facial hair at any point I could get us out of trouble by telling them I was a girl. So there was a point where my boyfriend didn't want to hold my hand in public. That was hard. And then when I started wearing skirts and dresses again, for the first time in years, he missed me looking like a guy and kept asking me to dress like one. Sigh.

So yeah. More or less, I feel exactly the same as you. Soulmate! :P

[Thomas]

I think you would get on with Ze very well, you kinda remind me of him, in his struggles etc...

:eek: It's so funny that you say that, because Ze was my first friend on here! Every time he would respond to my posts, it was as if we were the same person, I've even added him on messenger (though we don't talk much... probably my fault ><) I'm really looking forward to his reply to this, actually =P

just sending you a :hugs: like Tamara I can no way know how you are feeling, but I do know how my partner reacts to this damn gender dysphoria when she is trying to be the male she needs to be on occasions, she struggles hun and she is 50, but her fem has only been back seriously for 3 years after a 28 year break.

Don't try to label you just be who you are on any given day/hour minute :hugs:
Wow it's hard to think about struggling with something like this throughout my life. I just kindof want to know who I am... I hate feeling... lost, I guess. But thank you for the kind words. I've always been one to hate labels, yet somehow I just can't avoid giving myself them -sigh-



It's like every time I say, "At last, I know who I am," something else inside me decides that it's time to mess me up again by sending me in the other direction and confusing the hell out of me. It's frustrating because when I want to be male I know that I never really can be. Because I keep swinging between the two, changing my body to be male would be a bad idea. So when I want to be male it's really hard on my mind.

And coming back here after being away for so long, there are quite a few guys now on T and transitioning. And I know that that wouldn't really be an option for me but I still really, really want it.

I agree completely. I don't swing between extremes quite as much as you do anymore, but I did a lot in my younger years. Now I'm typically very male... but the feminine side is like an annoying mosquito bite that won't go away. I'll forget about it for a while, and then it'll start itching at me again, and I don't know quite how to satisfy that itch @_@; (haha, sorry if that metaphor was confusing... I think in metaphors)

But what you said about changing your body not being an option cause of the constant switching, and looking at other guys on T, I can relate to that a lot. I feel... afraid to make any permanent change, no matter how badly I want it, because I'm afraid that I'll regret it later on. And I guess it is upsetting to see other guys transitioning, because they all seem so sure of themselves... and I wish I could have that.

Thanks so much for your comments

[Kieron Andrew]

-takes a deep breath-
....AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!

-ahem- sorry bout that. But I'm going insane here.Take a deeper breathe :)...there are plenty of us here willing to listen and help...


I haven't been on CD for the longest time because I've been having crazy dysphoria problems coming from every direction and I really do NOT know what to do with myself. I thought time away from CD would help me on my path to understanding myself, but it hasn't, and perhaps has even made it worse.Well in that case, i am really glad you are back, because a place like this is really all about supporting you to sort out those crazy thoughts, so that you don't feel so alone


I've already come to the realization that I do NOT want to be female. I've questioned this twenty times over and I'm pretty certain of this. But the problem at hand is... I'm not so sure I want to be male either? I don't know what's going on in my head, or what gender I'm supposed to be, and it's confusing beyond anything I've had to cope with before.before i go into an indepth speel, can i ask you one question? Why do you have to be either? is it because society says so or because binary suggests there can only be black and white?, male and female?...blah stuff binary....if you feel and its seems you do, that you are somewhere in the middle, ie an inbetweeny, then thats who you are, if that feels comfortable then go for it...it doesn't mean you are any less trans than those of us that are one or the other....


I remember when I used to cry... yes CRY (and I hardly ever do) over wishing I were a guy. I remember how ELATED I felt when I realized how much I was starting to look like a guy. And even now, when I look in the mirror and see myself as a guy, I feel confident, I feel stronger, I feel happy and... 'right'. I actually had an elderly guy call me "he" when talking to his dog about me. I was on top of the world with happiness and that huge boost in self-esteem. (Aside from my self-doubt about wondering if I'd heard him wrong and such)feels good when it feels right doesn't it...and thats all that matters :), what you makes you feel good on any given day...


I really do not want to be forced to pick a gender. I don't like picking. gahhh Dx Then don't, you are Thomas end of...regardless of gender you are a person, that person is Thomas :)


When I think about it, I feel like a guy. I think like a guy. I feel comfortable as a guy. But there are some girly things from my past that pester me a often.

I guess the best way to describe myself is that of an effeminate guy. But I can't act feminine in this body, because then I just seem like a girl.

And then I stop and think about it and I go.. well... act feminine in what way? How can I act feminine? I don't understand shopping or makeup or the typical girly things. I never have, and when friends try to talk to me about them I get bored out of my mind. I don't understand... lol. Bear with me... this is confusing.
what in your mind is wrong with being an effeminate guy, plenty of them around, no?...lots of film stars, TV stars, music stars are effeminate males...and they are not necessarily gay


I'm bisexual, but I have.. I guess, unusual tastes. I have a tendency to be attracted to really girly guys, and really guyish girls. And this messes with my head. A lot.so you go for guys like you are, and more masculine woman, so? we all have our tastes...okay one example, a famous FtM Loren Cameron, he is masculine in looks beyond belief but when he speak is voice and mannerisms are quite effeminate....his partner is a bodybuilder too and is quite butch in her mannerisms...but Loren is the man in that relationship...


I love feminine guys, so I have a tendency to want to be like what I like and what I'm attracted to. But I also have a masculine side. And since I don't want to be female, the masculine girl thing is really not an option.seems to me you DO know who you are, you just don't want to conform to gender binary...so what, don't blame you!


I have a very close friend who i've known for a couple years now. I tell him everything. But I find myself getting jealous of him a lot. He's extremely feminine, even to the point of putting bows in his long hair or crossdressing. He's not trans, he likes being a guy, but he enjoys being feminine... And I guess I'm jealous of his ability to act fem but still be a guy. I've told him this on several occasions. I feel like I so often have to over-compensate for my physical body by acting more masculine than I would like to be. Anything slightly girly that I do gets magnified tenfold and then appears ten times as girly, because the features of my physical body tend to overshadow everything I do. Sometimes I'll watch guys' body language. And I've noticed there are certain moves or stances that a guy can do but I can't, because hes a biological guy. So even if its slightly girly it still looks like a guy when he does it, but since im not a cisguy, if I do it it looks super girly. So I have to kindof compensate for my female-ness by being more of a guy then I should have to be.Thomas, if you choose to transition, what your body looks like now, wont be no where near what it will look like then, i know its frustrating when you see other Genetic Males look and act the way you want to recognised, as male...but you will get there, it can happen for you :)


Also: I'm getting really really sick of everyone thinking that I have to be all like TESTOSTERONE AND HARRY AND MUSCLES AND FARTS AND BURPS AND MANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN to be a guy inside.i know its hard, but ignore those that conform to binary and their idea of what a man is....


But people only see what they see on the outside, they don't see what gender I am, they only see my sex. (Sex is what's between your legs, gender is what's between your ears! :D) And how can they... when I'm not even sure of myself?humans see what they want to see, what makes THEM comfortable, so that they don't have to question anything....


Actually... -sigh- I've given up on correcting people gender-wise. I think there are only a handful of people who actually use both my name AND the right gender pronouns. It's... rather upsetting, but I pretend like it doesn't bother me. I really got tired of how much I had to FIGHT to get people to call me the right thing. It's disheartening.. Don't give up, what might be a good idea is to type a mass letter to those that don't do as you have asked them to do, and explain to them the way it makes you feel, especially as you are out to them


I didn't realize I was a guy until I was like... sixteen? I guess. And I didn't come out about it until around eighteen. And I'm only nineteen now, and even more lost and confused than I was when I was discovering myselfyou are still very early on in your self discovery, don't give yourself such a hard time figuring it all out...take your time there is no rush...in the meantime, stick around here and talk about things that are troubling you, or just stick around and read some, either way we are here for you...


Perhaps most of this is fear. most probably...transitioning is scary to start with...but the more you transition the more you see there is nothing to worry about...if you want to talk to someone who has been on T a while there are a few of us around :), if you figure its not for you then its not the end of the world...


And as for the lower half of my body.. well. I don't even know what I want with that. there are days where I really want male parts. but usually I don't really like the male or the female parts, and I kindof wish I could have NO parts whatsoever. I'd rather not have a gender at all, but still somehow be able to have sexual pleasure. heh. Impossible, right? there is no way i will be having phallo, not every ftm opts for bottom surgery, not having a penis doesn't make you less of a man


I don't know why I didn't come to you sooner. I think a part of me is ashamed... Don't be ashamed, most of us have heard it all before :)


Thomas Michael Shrader
(I've always wanted to write that)Well thats who you are and you should be proud of your chosen name :)

[Thomas]

Oh my god, Kieron! Thank you so much for the long detailed response! It really made me happy to get so much feedback. Now for the replying part hehe.

I'm really glad I came back. You all have a tendency to make me feel so much more comfortable with myself. But honestly that's why I left. There were things that confused me, but I kindof ignored them because you all made me feel so confident and comfortable with the idea of being male. I had to break away from that for a while and do some self reflection to understand if male is what I truly am or not. However, I think the main hurdles of being honest with myself about my more effeminate half are over, and I'm back and ready to try to get some help tidying up all the confusion in my head. Bouncing thoughts off of you guys helps with the understanding myself part, and is often quite thought provoking.



before i go into an indepth speel, can i ask you one question? Why do you have to be either? is it because society says so or because binary suggests there can only be black and white?, male and female?...blah stuff binary....if you feel and its seems you do, that you are somewhere in the middle, ie an inbetweeny, then thats who you are, if that feels comfortable then go for it...it doesn't mean you are any less trans than those of us that are one or the other....

WELLLLLL.... I guess the thing I'm sitting on at the moment is that I don't know if I'm just a feminine guy or an "in-betweeney" as you put it. I know next to nothing about the bi-gender/genderfck/genderqueer/etc group of "inbetweeneys" and so its a bit harder to say if I fit any of the aforementioned categories when I'm not even entirely sure what they are! Not only that, but if I WERE an in-between person gender-wise... I wouldn't know what to do with myself. How would one "transition" into an in-between person? How would I explain to anyone that I'm "neither gender" or "both genders"? What pronouns would I ask them to call me? Gender-neutral ones? That just seems so awkward and uncomfortable (as if being trans isn't enough of that on its own) and I wouldn't know how to deal or act with that situation.



feels good when it feels right doesn't it...and thats all that matters :), what you makes you feel good on any given day...

It feels amazing. Days when I'm the most confident about how I look are the days I feel most like my true self, and with the highest self-esteem (even to the point of downright cockyness xD)



what in your mind is wrong with being an effeminate guy, plenty of them around, no?...lots of film stars, TV stars, music stars are effeminate males...and they are not necessarily gay
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! xD I love fem guys. But I guess the problem with it is that... in this body.. people are going to see me as less of a man if I'm feminine (regardless of weather or not it's true). I would like to say that I don't care what they think, but obviously I do if I'm trying so hard to pass. (if I didn't care at all, then I would just wear whatever the hell I wanted, and know I'm a guy inside, without worrying about if they saw me as male or female. but, alas, this is not the case) I feel like people who see me act more feminine wonder why I don't just stay female... Or worse, see me as an actual girl... heh.



humans see what they want to see, what makes THEM comfortable, so that they don't have to question anything....

Hmph, well personally, I'm not too fond of the human race! I dislike narrow-minded, judgmental, selfish, ignorant, oblivious people.. and yet somehow I'm always trying to get their approval... WHAT is wrong with me? Lol.



Don't give up, what might be a good idea is to type a mass letter to those that don't do as you have asked them to do, and explain to them the way it makes you feel, especially as you are out to them

That might be a good idea. But I guess I get embarrassed by it. I feel like I'm being rude and ruffling feathers unnecessarily. And believe me, I avoid drama like the plague, and the thought of seeming... unappreciative or controlling or complaining... doesn't sit well with me. I tend to quietly swallow a lot more things than I should take sitting down, but I don't really like the confrontation or to be the one everyone else has to accommodate. If that makes any sense.


you are still very early on in your self discovery, don't give yourself such a hard time figuring it all out...take your time there is no rush...in the meantime, stick around here and talk about things that are troubling you, or just stick around and read some, either way we are here for you...
I know! I'm a young'un xD. I think I'll take that advice actually, and calm down some... not pressure myself so much on the subject. I'll be starting college soon though.. and I guess I see that as kindof a clean slate thing. A chance to get everyone I encounter to call me the right pronouns and such. But if I haven't figured myself out by the time I start school... Well, that chance will be partially lost. But you're right, it really should not be that big of a rush, so I'm going to chill out a bit for now. I have time.


most probably...transitioning is scary to start with...but the more you transition the more you see there is nothing to worry about...if you want to talk to someone who has been on T a while there are a few of us around :), if you figure its not for you then its not the end of the world...
SPEAKING OF T! One of my main concerns about it is the huge amount of changes. Since I like being a feminine guy, I would only want a small amount of change, not an entire body reconstruction. Is there any way that they can give a smaller dosage of T or whatever so that I can be a more feminine guy? (Read: pretty boy) And if they did give a smaller dosage, would it still be enough to change my voice?


there is no way i will be having phallo, not every ftm opts for bottom surgery, not having a penis doesn't make you less of a man
I don't have a problem with the idea of having a penis, I just have a problem with the surgery idea... However, I do somewhat have a problem with having female parts. I have this repulsion with penetration... Even if it feels good, at the same time it like makes me nauseous? And yeah. Just not too fond of penetration at all. (sorry if this is TMI)


Well thats who you are and you should be proud of your chosen name :)
I think I enjoy my full name more than just my first name haha xD It's funny because my signature for my legal name is probably the worst signature I've ever seen in my life, but my signature for my chosen name is just magically amazing? (I make a fancy T sorta haha) Kinda cool how it works out that way. I actually got to sign a few year books with Thomas... and enjoyed it a little TOO much. So... cause it's fun, Imma do it again.

Thomas Michael Shrader

[Kieron Andrew]

However, I think the main hurdles of being honest with myself about my more effeminate half are over, and I'm back and ready to try to get some help tidying up all the confusion in my head. Bouncing thoughts off of you guys helps with the understanding myself part, and is often quite thought provoking.Thought provoking is a good thing, but don't let it over-run your thoughts :)...and thus making you confused again, concentrate on one of the issues and deal with that, then move to the next, kinda like a check list?


WELLLLLL.... I guess the thing I'm sitting on at the moment is that I don't know if I'm just a feminine guy or an "in-betweeney" as you put it. I know next to nothing about the bi-gender/genderf*ck/genderqueer/etc group of "inbetweeneys" and so its a bit harder to say if I fit any of the aforementioned categories when I'm not even entirely sure what they are! Not only that, but if I WERE an in-between person gender-wise... I wouldn't know what to do with myself. How would one "transition" into an in-between person? How would I explain to anyone that I'm "neither gender" or "both genders"? What pronouns would I ask them to call me? Gender-neutral ones? That just seems so awkward and uncomfortable (as if being trans isn't enough of that on its own) and I wouldn't know how to deal or act with that situation.Don't over-analyse this part too much, i was just wondering is all :)...as for pronouns if you did discover you felt more comfortable ID'ing inbetween genders, that doesn't mean you can't use he/his/him for your pronouns for others to use...there is no rule to that as far as i'm concerned pronouns are a personal choice


Hmph, well personally, I'm not too fond of the human race! I dislike narrow-minded, judgmental, selfish, ignorant, oblivious people.. and yet somehow I'm always trying to get their approval... WHAT is wrong with me? Lol.Unfortunately, it seems the human race strives on approval, and thats just how you've been conditioned from a young age, by family, friends and teachers...there is nothing wrong with you, you just want to please others...not a bad thing IMO


That might be a good idea. But I guess I get embarrassed by it. I feel like I'm being rude and ruffling feathers unnecessarily. And believe me, I avoid drama like the plague, and the thought of seeming... unappreciative or controlling or complaining... doesn't sit well with me. I tend to quietly swallow a lot more things than I should take sitting down, but I don't really like the confrontation or to be the one everyone else has to accommodate. If that makes any sense.if you really wanted take this approach i'm sure the boys and girls here could help you form a letter to your friends :)


I know! I'm a young'un xD. I think I'll take that advice actually, and calm down some... not pressure myself so much on the subject. I'll be starting college soon though.. and I guess I see that as kindof a clean slate thing. A chance to get everyone I encounter to call me the right pronouns and such. But if I haven't figured myself out by the time I start school... Well, that chance will be partially lost. But you're right, it really should not be that big of a rush, so I'm going to chill out a bit for now. I have time.College is a great time to start getting people to call you Thomas, and the pronouns you desire :) thats where i started...even if you haven't figured yourself out by then, i'd still go with college calling you what you feel most comfortable as


SPEAKING OF T! One of my main concerns about it is the huge amount of changes. Since I like being a feminine guy, I would only want a small amount of change, not an entire body reconstruction. Is there any way that they can give a smaller dosage of T or whatever so that I can be a more feminine guy? (Read: pretty boy) And if they did give a smaller dosage, would it still be enough to change my voice?if you wanted a low dose of T, i'm guessing the endo you end up with might be willing to work with you on this :), you could always research this :)


Just not too fond of penetration at all. (sorry if this is TMI) i hate penetration in the female area, but thats probably cos i ID as straight male, so you're not much different from alot of transguys who don't like it, however unusually i do like anally, but only from my female partner not from a male partner


I think I enjoy my full name more than just my first name haha xD It's funny because my signature for my legal name is probably the worst signature I've ever seen in my life, but my signature for my chosen name is just magically amazing? (I make a fancy T sorta haha) Kinda cool how it works out that way. I actually got to sign a few year books with Thomas... and enjoyed it a little TOO much. So... cause it's fun, Imma do it again.

Thomas Michael Shraderhehe, it's funny i am the same i like Kieron Andrew, better than i like just plain old Kieron...so i totally get where you are coming from with that...i even have it in full on my bank card because i like it that way lol

[sandra-leigh]

genderqueer (http://www.ftmguide.org/terminology.html): A person whose gender identity is neither male nor female, is between or beyond genders, or is some combination of genders.


Genderf*ck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender****): Genderf*ck can be an expression of gender identity or, paradoxically, a conspicuous refusal to express gender identity in any conventionally interpretable fashion, or to respect the gender expression of others. Genderf*ck uses parody and exaggeration to call attention to its transgression of gender roles, seeking to expose them as artificial, often by manipulating one's appearance to create gender dissonance or ambiguity in stark opposition of the gender binary. In this way, genderf*ck shares many characteristics with genderqueer, although they are two separate concepts.

Bi-gender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-gender): describes a tendency to move between feminine and masculine gender-typed behaviour depending on context, expressing a distinctly "en femme" persona and a distinctly "en homme" persona, feminine and masculine respectively.


Androgynous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyny): An androgyne in terms of gender identity, is a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical masculine and feminine gender roles of their society. They may also use the term ambigender to describe themselves. Many androgynes identify as being mentally "between" woman and man, or as entirely genderless. They may class themselves as non-gendered, genderneutral, agendered, between genders, intergendered, Bigendered, pangender or Gender fluid. They are technically of both genders. Genderqueer is often used to describe the category.

Two-Spirited (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit): A direct translation of the Ojibwe term, Niizh manidoowag, "two-spirited" or "two-spirit" is usually used to indicate a person whose body simultaneously houses a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit.

Trigender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigender): Similar to Bigender, Trigenderism is a gender identification or feeling that a person is moving between or among genders: masculine, feminine and a third gender (genderless, Third gender, neutrois, a mix of masculinity and femininity, or any other variety of Genderqueer identities). A Trigender transitions from one gender to another rigidly and completely depending on the mood of the individual or based on the situation. In contrast, someone who has a "fluid" gendered nature (see Gender fluid) and is Trigender is often a mix of two or more genders at any given time.

[Kieron Andrew]

Sandra thanks for that i was looking around for an informative list

[Andy66]

Thomas, you are neither alone, nor weird. No weirder than anyone else is, anyway. :heehee: A few random thoughts:

I've always been sort of in between genders too, but I couldn't quite put my finger on what was wrong until I found this site and started reading about other people's experiences.

When I was younger, finding a label that fit me seemed really important. Now, not so much. Someone (I think it was Alpha) mentioned the term "gender ambivalent." I really like that one. I never could pick a team, and honestly don't see why I should have to.

Sometimes the rules just don't apply to you, so you have to make up your own rules.

I am attracted to all different types of people for different reasons, but especially butch women and girly men.

People are constantly learning and evolving throughout their lives. Best not to do anything drastic or permanent until you are completely sure about it.

About the low dose T, I'm no expert but it seems that hormones affect people differently. One of my neighbors is a transman who looks completely, without a doubt male... until he opens his mouth. :sad: On the other hand, some of our guys say their voices got very deep. It's a crap shoot. :strugglin: There is a thread somewhere around here about deepening your voice without T. You should check it out.

[Thomas]

Yes thank you Sandra!

Hm it's something interesting I'll have to think about for a while. The concept of having multiple genders or no gender is a new and somewhat foreign thought process for me, and I'm not sure what my opinions are yet.

However, just going by my gut feeling, and thinking over the posts I've made here, as well as the conversations I've had with friends, I'm most likely just a feminine guy. I won't reject the genderqueer/etc idea just yet, but there seems to be a reoccurring theme of me being male.

I guess, in most circumstances, I don't have too much wavering issues with being male. But when it does happen, the dysphoria hits hard. I've noticed it comes up in one of two situations. One: I'm in a situation where I'm forced to either "play the part" of a girl because I'm not completely "out" yet, or I get treated as a girl by people who don't understand/don't accept/don't know about my gender preference. Or, Two: When I come across something from my past that I really liked but that was particularly girly. i.e. a punkish skirt I own, a really girly tv show I was obsessed with for the longest time (not to be mentioned here for the sake of my dignity!), or whatever else might happen to come up and bother me.

before I would just simply avoid such things, but I think it's best to face that half of me head on. The need for certain feminine things is like a little fix that I have to indulge in on rare occasions to feel better, and doesn't really distract from me being a guy (or a fem guy, for that matter) on a normal basis.

This thread has helped a lot. That understanding didn't exist when I wrote this, and I'm starting to feel a lot more comfortable with the idea of being a bit less manly than I've been striving to be. Thank you all so so much!

[Thomas]

I've always been sort of in between genders too, but I couldn't quite put my finger on what was wrong until I found this site and started reading about other people's experiences.
That's what's so great about this site, isn't it? Not only is it a chance to learn about things you've never been exposed to and be able to socialize with people like yourself, but they all strive to help each other better themselves and become happier people, too. I have never found a more loving and accepting group as this one. I don't think I have ever seen a single rude or hurtful comment on here. And that's rare for the internet now days =P


I am attracted to all different types of people for different reasons, but especially butch women and girly men.

That's so interesting. Several people have said that now. I really was not expecting this preference to be so common! I thought I was just an oddball. Haha xD


People are constantly learning and evolving throughout their lives. Best not to do anything drastic or permanent until you are completely sure about it.

Agreed. I can't say I've stayed the same from one year to the next at all for as long as I can remember.


About the low dose T, I'm no expert but it seems that hormones affect people differently. One of my neighbors is a transman who looks completely, without a doubt male... until he opens his mouth. :sad: On the other hand, some of our guys say their voices got very deep. It's a crap shoot. :strugglin: There is a thread somewhere around here about deepening your voice without T. You should check it out.
Ah, I think I do recall reading that thread. Did Ze make it?

And I wouldn't mind some changes to my appearance or body from T (given that I reach the point where I'm sure I'm ready for a more permanent change) But I like being a "pretty boy" of sorts, and I wouldn't want T to change me into an extremely butch, muscular, hairy guy. A little facial change, a little voice change, a little bit more hair, a little bit more muscle (like on my puny arms!) and such would be great for me, but I worry that the T will overdo it and then there will be no turning back :straightface: which seems like horror beyond horrors to me.

[Andy66]

Ah, I think I do recall reading that thread. Did Ze make it?
Yes. It's a sticky in one of the sections.
A little facial change, a little voice change, a little bit more hair, a little bit more muscle (like on my puny arms!) and such would be great for me
Your face will change a little bit, gradually as you get older. Or it could with T if you choose to go that route.

I've tried some of the suggestions on that voice changing thread, and they do work.

Can't really help you with hair.

I do a lot of lifting at work, and it helps some. I've been trying a high protein/low carb diet for about a month now to lose weight, and the additional protein seems to be making a significant difference in my muscle mass. It doesn't look like you need to lose weight, but you might want to read up on protein and weight training.

[sandra-leigh]

What was it I wrote a couple of weeks ago... something like: Being transgendered but not transsexual is like being lost without a road-map and not even knowing where you are trying to go. It can be scary. Most people would rather know where they are, even if it is not where they would prefer to be.

Re: not being recognized / appreciated for your chosen gender: Yes, at the very least it is disappointing. "Come on, people, if I'm in a dress and makeup, can't you at least call me ma'm sometimes?" To some people it is more than just disappointing: some people consider an outing to be a total failure and refuse to go out again for literally years if even one person refers to them by their birth gender. I'm not upset at being "read" relatively easily, but it hurts that even though I'm out so much, so obvious in public, that people rarely think to refer to me in my chosen gender or to ask about my preference.

Re: loving something girly: Thomas, to what extent are you getting upset because you do not match your expectation of what "male" is?

I read "The Female Brain" a few months ago, and talked to my gender therapist about it. I indicated that there were a lot of places in it where when I was reading about what females were like, I was saying to myself, "I don't feel like that" -- but at the same time, when they described what a male would feel like instead, I would say "Well, maybe a bit, but that doesn't really apply to me." My therapist told me bluntly that I should not pay much attention to the book, that it was at best a composite image taken to describe the image that the author had of what being female was about, and that there are a lot of women who don't match key points I had highlighted to her. She wasn't just speaking abstractly, either: she was a bit upset that I might think that I wasn't (at least partly) female.

It's a bit strange, really, that my gender therapist doesn't treat me as if she thinks that I am a woman (i.e., doesn't treat me as transsexual), but she does get ruffled if I raise the idea that I am "male". It's a bit inconsistent -- and yet I see a reflection of the same thing in a wide variety of people, especially women: they simultaneously see me as male and interact with me as if being at least as female as I am is the right thing for me, encouraging me to dress (and more). (I was going to expand on that a bit but I don't want to accidentally hijack the thread.)

The point ("and I do have one!") is that there is a wide variety of "male" and "female", and that it is possible to be an open mix. Especially at your age; the younger people I talk to often say that someone they know cross-dresses and that no-one their age minds.


I think you are being realistic to be concerned about the possibility of being treated as female if you wore a skirt. As G. Gordon Liddy is reported to have said, "The trick is not to mind."

[nikkijo]

thomas.. get out of my head..... your thoughs are mirroring mine... get out!!!! oh so not fair those thoughts were firewalled!!!!!:D:D:daydreaming:

[Thomas]

Sandra: You're not hijacking at all! I appreciate your views on the subject and hearing about your experiences. I guess you're right about the steriotypical male/female roles. I shouldn't try to fit myself to any mold that I or anyone else has created. it's just easier to set up a model for myself and say "this is what i need to accomplish so i can be more accepted and pass" but... you're right about people my age. they're a lot more accepting, and I should know that they'll accept me if I just be myself. It's not always easy knowing who myself is though =P

Also, I hope this isn't rude or anything, but when reading your post I realized you write very "female". I can't explain it really, but when I read it I hear a female voice in my head. I could never imagine a male using the same words. I just thought you'd like to know that =P

Nikkijo: well, so much for being an individual! i'm like Ze and I'm like Lex and now I'm like you! I joke =P it's good to know people can relate to me... I don't feel as different as I did when I was posting this

[nikkijo]

yea... there are alot of us who dont exactially line up with what others think we should... so we are all in the boat assentially with you ze and lex being stuck on the male side and me and others stuck on the female side of the fence..

[Ze]

:eek: It's so funny that you say that, because Ze was my first friend on here! Every time he would respond to my posts, it was as if we were the same person,

:D Dude, I am so freaking happy you're back!


I've even added him on messenger (though we don't talk much... probably my fault ><) I'm really looking forward to his reply to this, actually =P

My fault, too, actually...:o I'm not a big IM-er.

I just returned from my first big move to Boston, so I'm going to carefully read your OP and appropriately respond at a later point. :hugs: I need to get my bearings in the meantime.

[Thomas]

Woo! welcome back Ze! Missed ya buddy :)

And yeah.. I kindof wrote a novel xD so it's understandable that you'd wanna wait till you could focus on it better. Thanks for taking the time to drop a note. I actually saw you sign into messenger the other day, but when I went to say hi you were offline o-o bah.

[Ze]

Read your whole post and all the responses, and after reading all that, I'm ashamed to admit I have nothing more to add. :o Everybody's already said it all, and much better than I ever could have.

Tamara indeed pegged it, too; I definitely relate to what you're talking about. :hugs: It's all incredibly maddening. You think you know the answer, and then you think you don't; and yet while thinking that, you still think you do! :ft: I also really understand that "so exhausted you stop correcting people" thing. It happens so often that you just get worn. You care and it hurts, but you've mentally checked out for the day beyond your control. Like you said, disheartening.

I'm truly sorry I have nothing new or brilliant to add, but I still really do relate.

:bh:


I actually saw you sign into messenger the other day, but when I went to say hi you were offline o-o bah.

It's the ninja in me.

[Thomas]

Aw, shame =P I was looking forward to Ze's words of wisdom.

But its good to know you can relate. Makes me think maybe one day I can sort my brain out and start thinking about serious things like coming out to the family (eep. I wouldn't even CONSIDER that at this point. I haven't even told my own therapist o__o)

But yeah, gives me hope an stuff xD whenever someone says "I was just like you when I was your age" I mentally imagine myself becoming similar to them in the future. hah.

And I've realized that I don't know myself quite as well as I thought I did. Time to go on that mental journey of self-discovery once again. @_@ I really hope this cycle doesn't continue repeating itself... cause that's going to make me nuts!

But, as I told Kieron, I'm still young, and being young is all about learning and changing. So I guess now's a good time to figure this stuff out. -shrug-

[Ze]

That's definitely a good attitude to have. :) And I'd encourage you to come out to your therapist; especially since I've been in the same boat as you with coming out to the family, the therapist was one of my better decisions. :) Does s/he have any experience with gender identity at all?

[Thomas]

I haven't the slightest clue. She's kindof odd though.. I don't know how she'll react to it or even if she'll understand. There have been a few occasions where I thought I explained something very clearly and thoroughly, only to find out she had somehow completely misunderstood o_o; So I'm hesitant to breach the subject really.

[Ze]

Hmm...finding a good gender therapist might be key for you by this point. :) Start googling things like "gender therapist in [state]" and take it from there. That's how I got started, anyway. Sucks, but starting out is always the hardest. After that, you start making connections. :)

[Thomas]

Well actually I was going to transfer therapists before, but it turns out our insurance only covers the therapists at my doctor's office. and I already transfered once before... it's a pain to start over again. So I'm just going to have to deal with her for now. Mother doesn't even think I should go to therapy at all, but she's still paying for it, so I don't really want to press the issue.

[Ze]

You going to college at all right now? I found out (quite late in the game; d'oh!) that many colleges offer free therapy via licensed therapists and psychiatrists and work through the school. Miraculously, I actually found someone who was gender savvy in my own backwards, redneck, conservative college. :eek: So if that's an option, check that out. :) I myself have problems affording therapy (though I desperately need it); only major downside with going through the school is you have to fly solo when school's out. Summers are particularly rough, depending on how dependent you are on therapy. (I'm fairly dependent.)

[Thomas]

Hm that's interesting, I'll look into that. Just going to community college for now, transferring later (hopefully to a university in Japan o_o; If we can afford it. I'm nuts) So I'm not sure if a little community college will have any therapists on staff or not but it's worth checking out. And yeah.. summer might be tough. Hmm. I'll see what I can find out, thanks :)

[AnonyMouse]

Thomas, you are like my twin from another reality. I had almost the exact same identity crisis a few months ago... and I'm liable to end up in a community college until I can transfer. (Not to Japan, though. Just Oregon.)

For what it's worth, I eventually figured out that my problem wasn't that I didn't really feel male, but that I didn't live up to the standards of "manhood" that I perceived as coming from the heteronormative group. (I still don't really identify as a man - too many associated connotations.) I had to get my head around the fact that a guy could actually have feminine tendencies, like wearing girls' clothes occasionally, and stuff like that. After all, cisboys do it all the time and we don't force them to relinquish their male identity, so why can't anyone else?

Wearing girls' clothes on occasion doesn't make you cisgendered; it makes you a transvestite. Cisvestite? Dunno exactly, but it's nothing to be too worried about. It's just one of the ways you like to express yourself.

I've been through the same exact things, and it's very tempting for me to dish everything out so you can see exactly how much we've had in common, but I can sum it up with a quick: yeah, there's a lot of self-discovery involved. Androgyny may work for you or it may not. Don't try too hard to live up to any one label (I think someone said that already); take your feelings as they come and see where they lead you. And stuff.

Also, any time you're feeling introspective and need to sort stuff out, posting it is a good idea. Writing, as I've found, is the best way to sort your feelings into something coherent; it's also easier to write (to an audience or yourself) than it is to talk to someone in person. Plus you get a lot of people who show up to reassure you that you're not a total freak.