Evicted From Marshall Fields

[Julie]

This was taken from The Chicago Area Crossdresser's forum. It created a lot of activity, more than any post I've ever seen. I'm just wondering what the feelings of the members here is on this account.

I am simply in shock over the treatment I received at Marshall Field's State Street today.

While I was shopping around 11:00, in drab, a particular sales girl happened to be very nice towards me, asking if I needed any help, smiling nicely, being friendly, coming back to me a few times while I looked around, etc.

I'm at the point where I tend to think it is pretty obvious that, even in drab, people can tell by the way I shop, touch the clothes, etc, that I am shopping for myself. Today, I couldn't help but feel this sales girl knew and was just being helpful, so I asked her if I could try on the two skirts I was carrying. She smiled and said "OK".

After being in the fitting room for about a minute and a half, a different sales girl came into the fitting room area, (we'll call her the mean sales girl), knocked on the door and said "Sir.". I said "Yes". She then said, in a forceful mean tone, "This is a WOMEN'S (emphasis added) fitting room and you can't be in here".

Then the nice sales girl, who had evidently walked in with the mean girl, said, "I'm really sorry". I could tell in her voice she thought she had made some kind mistake, and was genuinely sorry.

At this point, standing there in a short skirt with two sales girls right outside the flimsy door, just inches away, one demanding I leave, I felt very vulnerable and all I could say was "OK.".

Then the mean sales girl began walking out, saying "I'm calling security".

At this point, terrified of what some security guard(s) might do, I got dressed and left as fast as I could. As I left the fitting room area, the nice sales girl was waiting outside and apologized again, saying "I'm sorry". She seemed to feel genuinely sorry for what had happened. The mean sales girl had left, obviously hell bent on her quest for security.

It is important to state that the fitting room area was your typical store arrangement, with separate "cubicles" and doors for privacy.

Has anyone had a similar situation? How did you respond? I feel that I want to complain, as, regardless of store policy, the mean girl could have been more humane, especially in light of having obtained permission from a sales girl. What good it will do, who knows?

I have actually tried on clothes and lingerie at several different stores recently, in drab, where the sales girls were nothing but helpful and had no problem with me trying on anything I wanted, often coming back to the fitting rooms and asking how everything fit. I guess I was getting used to the feeling of equality. Interestingly, I'm seeing more and more women going into dressing rooms with their husbands/boyfriends when they try on clothes.

I'm going to post this to a couple of other groups, to get as much feedback as possible.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and giving me your thoughts.


Here's my thoughts - First of all I applaud her for having the courage to ask the sales girl if she can try on the clothes rather than buying then, taking them home and trying them on there and have to return them because of fit. But once she committed to walking in that dressing room she should have prepared herself for a negative reaction. I would have expected, rather than been surprised by, someone objecting to me using the women's dressing room, particularly if dressed as a man. (Just for the record, the entire floor was the women's department and there were no changing rooms for men on this floor.)

Since she recieved permission from the first sales girl I believe she had the right to do so. I read many replies to this where the respondent expressed feelings of improper treatment or prejudice against crossdressers and wondered when society will accept us. My thoughts here are this person's actions, fleeing the store, constituted consciousness of guilt - she acted like she was doing something wrong when she fled the store. If she was upset by what happened she had every right to take her case to whatever employee would eventually settle this as a Field's employee gave her permission to use the women's dressing room. If you want respect and to be treated properly, don't act guilty by running away when things get dicey. I would have expected Fields to have settled this in a dignified way had she stayed to fight for her rights. Fleeing only confirmed the 'mean' sales girl's contentions that this was wrong. 0.02

[Jamie M]

I do see what you are saying , but I personally don't think she fled becasue she felt guilty , more like she was worried abut what security might do to her. To be honest I think that's a very reasonable reaction in the circumstances.

Of course in an ideal world she should have stayed and 'fought it out' but some of us just aren't built that way. I'd have to be in a really grouchy mood to stay and argue the toss even if I felt I was completely in the right.

I think it comes down to what alot of people have been saying recently. When you're out and about do you think for yourself there in the moment or do you try to advance the whole CD/TG cause. At the moment , I'm believe I'm in the same frame of mind as the OP. I'm happy to go out shopping drab and maybe not even care if someones realises but I'm not ready to be a martry for my sisters yet.

[NatalieBliss]

I agree with Julia. She did the right (and very brave) thing in asking first. It would be nice if everyone could feel safe in standing up for their personal choices, but I also am not willing to become a martyr for the cause. I don't want anyone to be either. In my humble opinion the best course to gaining acceptance is to be polite in the face of discrimintation and listen to the natural fight or flight response, as it often has better commonsense than the rest of you when your are passionate about a topic. Not that "in your face" is not appropiate at times or even often, but honestly with the way society see's us in general it is "in your face" engough to see a man who chooses to express his feminity in the manner many of us do.

[Jenny Beth]

No doubt she felt humiliated and wanted to get out of there as fast as she could. As for not making an issue about it with store management I suppose she, like many of us didn't want the exposure that could make the matter more public than it already was. If it were me I would have written the store a nasty letter about how I was treated and vowed never to shop there again which I'm sure she won't anyway. An interesting thought about this is how she mentioned several times how the "nice" salesgirl kept saying she was sorry. It seems to me she was concerned the salesgirl was somehow going to be in trouble for being helpful and I wouldn't be surprized if that bothered her more than being asked to leave.

[Priscilla1018]

I too would have written to the management and let them know what had happened,how I felt and that they will lose more than one cutomer since I would spread the word in the Transgender Society.I would not want to be a martyr for the cause but,sometimes you just have to stand uo and say that's wrong.If we hit them in the pocket book,they will take notice and possibly,some day,recognize us as a group that buys a lot of clothes and mean more profit for the store.
We need a cross dressers union,or National Organization that can fight for our rights.The biggest problem is how do we start?

[Sharon]

It's fine and admirable to stand up for what you feel is right, but how many of us would have the fortitude to actually do it? Like the writer of the piece, I too would have exited the store immediately, not willing to stand up for what I felt was my right, but also avoiding further embarrassment and being where I wasn't wanted.
While the author reacted instinctively and sought the refuge of non-confrontation, I really don't see what she would have accomplished by remaining in the store, at least in the immediate sense. Is there a Rosa Parks in the crossdressing community? And if there is, are there enough others who have the nerve to follow the lead, willing to sacrifice their anonymity, privacy, and dignity? That day may, or may not, ever arise, but I wonder how many of those who reacted so negatively to her piece would have actually done otherwise. Armchair activists are a dime-a-dozen.

edit -- for those of you who don't know who Rosa Parks is:
http://www.time.com/time/time100/heroes/profile/parks01.html

[susandrea]

This situation seems to me to be a "mini-version" of the current mind-set in the U.S.

There are some who are kind and gracious, relaxed and understanding (the nice salesgirl), then there are the frightened ignorant ones who automatically respond in a negative way (be nasty first and never bother asking questions later, like the mean sales girl), then there's the LAW, lurking in the background, and you don't know whether it will be for you or against you unless you hang around to find out.

Could go either way depending on the sensibilities of the security guard or policeman and his or her familiarity with the current laws in the state, which may or may not be on your side.

[ebony]

Well there are new laws that have passed for crossdresser and
TG's If I was you I would go and SUE the pants off those sons of Bi*$ches And just say it goes public that will set an example to make all the stores TG friendly they don't want to get sued.

SAVE THE WORLD JULIE SAVE THE WORLD

[susiej]

Julie Marie -- a member of the Chicago Area forum should e-mail a link to the thread to Marshal Fields' customer relations department. They deserve to know that they are getting violently negative publicity, in a market they may not be aware of. The e-mail could suggest that someone from the company join the forum and post an explanation, or even an apology. This would be good business for them, and the "right" thing to do.

Oh, and would I have "stood and fought" in this girl's situation? Not in a million, billion years :( ! If you think the security staff would be unpleasant, just imagine if they decided to call in the gentlemen of "Chicago's Finest"!

Hugs,
Susie

[Jen_TGCD]

In the past, I have worked at a large department store and, I'm well aware of stealth "floor walkers" and security. I'm also aware that many dressing rooms are monitored with video cameras. Shoplifting and employee theft has always been a problem and a great loss of revenue for these large stores. I'm also aware of the "pervs" that are cruising the women's department for ________ (you fill in the blank). I, also, understand many department stores realize that a large part of their customer base is Transgender related. May Company, here in Albuquerque, NM, has a dressing room in the Women's Department for their male clients!!! However, a guy shopping alone in any "women's" area is going to be noticed and stand out. Most stores don't care if you shop but, as far as dressing rooms and who uses them, is defined by strict store policy. It is helpful to know what that policy is BEFORE using the dressing rooms. Often, they will direct you to a nearby "male" dressing room or make some other arrangements.

Getting back to the topic, the "nice" clerk may have been breaking store policy... or... the Dept. Manager may have been exerting her own personal policies. We don't really know.

If that CD was ready and willing to make a stand, she should have immediately gone to the Administrative Offices and asked to see the Store Manager! The "cranky" floor manager is not the one to be dealing with. She had already displayed her lack of diplomacy and confronting her would only escalate into a bigger incident than is necessary. More than likely, there have been other complaints about her "attitude" and Management would probably be sympathetic to your treatment. In other words, take your complaints to the highest level of management that is possible when you feel you have been unfairly treated.

While I'm at it (don't you love long posts), AA's (armchair activists) actually can do a lot of good, yet remain anonymous, if they will, at least, write letters to the appropriate people. In the above case, if everyone that responded to the "Chicago" thread sent a letter to the CEO and the Publicity Director of Marshall Fields Corp. and sent copies to the Manager of the State Street store... you know that you are going to get some attention. No company wants "negative" publicity. Two or three letters may not make an impact... but 50 will!!!

[gender_blender]

I have had similar situations, but nothing involving security. First of all, I always ask either in dressed as male or female if I may try on the clothing I wish to purchase.

From my experience, it would seem that Victoria's Secret has rules that no men are allowed inside the dressing rooms. That is, of course, enforced only when they can tell I'm a guy.

From my experience, when I go to Deb's dressed as a guy, they (even my gay friend who works there) won't let me into the dressing room because they too have rules against guys being in there. However they have to let me in when I'm dressed as a female.

If the dressing rooms are as private as she states then perhaps she should have been shown the men's dressing room if for nothing more than to maintain the comfort of the women in the ladies' dressing room.
How does the "mean" sales girl know that the male customer's intentions are legitimate, especially without seeing that person?


Charlie

[Sigrid]

Getting back to the topic, the "nice" clerk may have been breaking store policy... or... the Dept. Manager may have been exerting her own personal policies. We don't really know.

True, but I have a hunch that, in a court of law, the shopper would prevail. He took reasonable steps to gain access to the fitting rooms... asking to use and receiving permission from a store representative (the "nice" salesgirl). I think regardless of her title... Manager, Sales Associate, whatever, if she's wearing the badge, her word can be taken as store policy. If she was wrong, that issue needs to be worked out between her and her employer.

If I were put in that situation, I'm sure I would have acted as she did... I'm not a very confrontational person. Regardless, I still think it may not be such a bad idea to leave the store, at least for several minutes just to cool down and regain ones composure and to think through what had just transpired. Then, if so inclined go back into the store and speak to the person in the highest level of management, as Jen suggests.

Personally, when I want to try on womans garments and given the choice, I will ask a sales rep if I can take them over to the men's dressing room. In my experience, that's never been a problem .

[brendalee70]

A similar experience happened to me at about 9 yrs ago. I was with my wife at a clothing store and she had tried on a nice black dress that zippered from the back and she called for me to go in with her and help her zip it up, when all of a sudden a seles girl came out of nowhere and she told me that I could not be in there with my wife. I then exited the dressing cubikle and waited outside. And since I work with the U.S. Federal Government (Law Enforcement) I was curious as to why? So, I asked the sales lady as to why? All she replied was that there is a law about having two people of different sexes in one dressing cubikle, but she did not quoeted me any 8 USC title, or even any Texas law title, she did not know much realy.

Let have a few days and I'll see what I can find out!
Love,
BrendaLee

[Wendy me]

well if a mastake was mad by the nice girl then the mean girl shurly should not be calling security as it was not ment to be something wrong ... i would just call and speak to the store manager and let them know that you were made to feel like you had done something wrong... and let them know that yes you shop there often and thought it was rund and not right.....

[susiej]

the "nice" clerk may have been breaking store policy... or... the Dept. Manager may have been exerting her own personal policies. We don't really know.

The central observation in this particular situation is that the "store", in the form of its collective staff, behaved inconsistently, first allowing the shopper to try on the skirt, then freaking out about a guy in the fitting rooms.

Those of us in management positions in our jobs have (hopefully) all gotten lectures about sexual harassment, and the doctrine of "hostile environment", which requires a firm to provide a safe and harrassment-free environment for all its employees and customers. It would be perfectly reasonable policy that the male shopper should not have been allowed in the women's fitting room for that reason. If so, the first clerk was too "nice", and perhaps uninformed about the policy (which would be a management failure -- she can't implement policy she doesn't know about).

My problem is with the manager's reaction. She asked the shopper to leave, he said "OK", and she still attempted to escalate the situation to store security. Perhaps she was frightened that the shopper would transform into Jack the Ripper when he came out of the booth. Or, maybe she was just a jerk (is "jerk" a androgynous term :) ?). This whole situation would have been avoided if she'd just told him, "sir, we're happy to sell you clothes, but we get in trouble with other customers to have you in the womens fitting rooms. Please come out as quickly as you can, and we'll find you another spot to try things on."

Hugs,
Susie

[Katrina]

...When I go to Deb's dressed as a guy, they (even my gay friend who works there) won't let me into the dressing room because they too have rules against guys being in there. However they have to let me in when I'm dressed as a female...
Charlie

Charlie,
I'm surprised that you are not allowed into the Deb's dressing rooms as a guy. That is the one store that I actually asked to go into the dressing rooms (in guy mode) and they didn't even bat an eyelash. I will say though that their dressing rooms were individual doors that opened out into the store so they were independent.

As for my thoughts on the situation, I feel that if the first sales lady allowed it, it becomes a training issue with the sales people. The "mean" sales lady, whether right or wrong with store policy, was wrong and should be banished to the depths of h3ll for trying to escalate it to security when the customer was obviously willing to abide by the contradictory store "policy". That said, I would have bolted as well and would not be shopping there anymore.

[Mx Justina]

In the past, I have worked at a large department store and, I'm well aware of stealth "floor walkers" and security. I'm also aware that many dressing rooms are monitored with video cameras. Shoplifting and employee theft has always been a problem and a great loss of revenue for these large stores. I'm also aware of the "pervs" that are cruising the women's department for ________ (you fill in the blank). I, also, understand many department stores realize that a large part of their customer base is Transgender related. May Company, here in Albuquerque, NM, has a dressing room in the Women's Department for their male clients!!! However, a guy shopping alone in any "women's" area is going to be noticed and stand out. Most stores don't care if you shop but, as far as dressing rooms and who uses them, is defined by strict store policy. It is helpful to know what that policy is BEFORE using the dressing rooms. Often, they will direct you to a nearby "male" dressing room or make some other arrangements.

Getting back to the topic, the "nice" clerk may have been breaking store policy... or... the Dept. Manager may have been exerting her own personal policies. We don't really know.

If that CD was ready and willing to make a stand, she should have immediately gone to the Administrative Offices and asked to see the Store Manager! The "cranky" floor manager is not the one to be dealing with. She had already displayed her lack of diplomacy and confronting her would only escalate into a bigger incident than is necessary. More than likely, there have been other complaints about her "attitude" and Management would probably be sympathetic to your treatment. In other words, take your complaints to the highest level of management that is possible when you feel you have been unfairly treated.

While I'm at it (don't you love long posts), AA's (armchair activists) actually can do a lot of good, yet remain anonymous, if they will, at least, write letters to the appropriate people. In the above case, if everyone that responded to the "Chicago" thread sent a letter to the CEO and the Publicity Director of Marshall Fields Corp. and sent copies to the Manager of the State Street store... you know that you are going to get some attention. No company wants "negative" publicity. Two or three letters may not make an impact... but 50 will!!!

Not a long post to me... In a practical, general way, those posted comments are what make most sense (IMO)... Out in the open is where the rubber meets the road...and whether it's a CD or TS...the cliche "knowlege is power" constantly applies... No one has to martyr themselves for the TG cause...just simply know yourself as throughly as possible, know your surrounding enviroment, and Know what will give you protection (legally and physically).

Complaint is the way to go (IMO) and strongly suggest the bad press potential (including internet).

J.

[Sweet Susan]

I don't feel it is worth it to make a stand in an unknown situtation. Calling security can go one of many ways. If she had stayed and duked it out with management and security, she would have had more than a good chance of being physically removed, arrested, or some such other negative consequence. What I'm about to say doesn't necessarily apply to everyone, but............ Quite frequently people who are hired as security guards don't always have what it takes to make an intelligent decision. We are talking about a low paying, low level job, and with that you don't always get top of the ladder thinkers. Department stores (and I've worked in one) have an incredible turn around in security personnel. Check the want ads. I think our hero in question did the right thing. Why risk the chance of having your name in the paper? Make a stand when it counts.

[Amanda Leigh]

my two cents is it just goes to show you how closed minded and pothetic that 3/4 of the public is like. its a shamed being that alot of cd's do shopping at Marshall Fields... I used to.

[Jasmine Marrie]

sorry to hear what happend to you.it happend once to me too and i was angry about it.people tend to treat us cd's differntly then others and this is wrong.

[parris james]

If she had stayed after she was asked to leave then she could be arrested for tresspassing, by the Police. Store security can only detain a person who has comitted a crime (i.e. shoplifting). So if she left when store security asked her to she could not be held nor would she be arrested by the Police. Its a shame that people can be so ignorent and treat others as if they are better then someone else. There truely is good and bad in all types of people.

[Phoebe Reece]

Way back in my college days in the late 1960's, I had a part time job at a large department store in Atlanta. That store, even then, had a policy concerning men (dressed as men) that wish to try on women's clothing. Sales personnel were instructed to politely have the customer try on the garment in the changing rooms in the men's clothing department, but were also otherwise to treat the customer with utmost respect and... make the sale. It could be that Marshall Fields has a similar policy that was being severely misinterpreted by the "mean" sales clerk. I would certainly contact the store manager or even more senior personnel in the Marshall Fields organization and relate the entire incident. My bet is that if upper management were to find out the full story, the "mean" sales clerk would very shortly be in the unemployment line. Department stores are in the business of selling merchandise. They can't do that by harrassing customers.

[Marianne]

I would have been perfectly polite about the whole thing.

I've only ever had a problem in a store once, and it was completely unrelated to transgenderism.

It was many many years back when I and my wife at the time went into a new supermarket that had just opened. We shopped, and at the checkout I started to write a check (The U.K. has check cards that work just like debit cards, if you present the check card with the check, its' a guaranteed payment). The cashier takes my check and check card, flips the check over and then tells me that I should have had it 'stamped' when I came into the store. I politely explained that I hadn't been there before, and hadn't seen a sign to that effect.

So, she calls security. The security guy comes over and after hearing the explanation, takes my arm and starts to walk away. I didn't move.

I said, very very quietly, something like "Take your hand off me, that's assault."

He let's go and I walk with him back to the customer service counter. I asked him "So, where's this sign?".

He points.

I say "Oh, that small sign 3/4 hidden behind that potted plant on the counter top?"

They stamp my check and the security guard 'escorts' me back to the checkout, then follows me out to the door. I sent the wife out with the cart and turned to him.

"So, you want to escort me to the managers office so I can file assault charges now, or are you following me for a reason?"

I did complain to the manager, and a week later when we went in there again, they had a much larger sign, and no potted plant in front of it.

----------

So, that said, the way to deal with this kind of situation is to attemtp to remain calm, remain polite, and NOT be intimidated. Knowing your rights helps.

Unfortunately, the TG situation is usually one of extreme embarassment, so much so that the 'panic' reaction sets in. There's no easy way to deal with this, and no amount of words on the internet are going to help.

However, the internet *does* help with 'educating' retailers (especially chain retailers), they *hate* bad publicity or any accusation of prejudicial treatment. Especially when there are federal and state laws that prevent them from exhibiting prejudicial treatment.

[Rachel_740]

I think she did the right thing in leaving the store, particularly if she was at all nervous (as I would have been in the circumstances). I also think the shop needs to sort it's policies out so all staff are trained in the same way, knowing the SHOPS feelings and this sort of embarassing situation (for customer and staff) isn't repeated. The sales assistants should be trained so if they have any personal hang-ups they don't show it.

It appears (in my experience here, in the UK) that if you are dressed in drabs it's frowned upon to try womens clothes on in store (although I've not heard of anyone trying womens clothes in the mens cubicles.

If you are dressed when you ask to try on (possibly subject to how busy they are) it doesn't seem to be a problem to go into the ladies cubicles to try clothes on. I phoned on store well over a year ago now and asked about it and they said it was ok as long as I was dressed and no other customenrs complained. I was in another store one day (before I transitioned) and asked to try something on and the assistant said she'd check the cubicles were free. I can't be 100% sure but I think she was checking that none of them were in use.

However, last time I was shopping, a couple of weeks ago the shop was very busy and as I was just coming out someone else was waiting for a cubicle. As I opened the curtain and walked out the assistant said to her (refering to me) 'this ladies just finished, you can use this cubicle'. Love it when I hear those sort of comments :thumbsup:

Anne

[Deidra Cowen]

I've used the fitting room at Lane Bryant while en femme but the clerk knew I was a male. I gotta admit what that girl went thru would freak me out too! :eek:

But I hope I would be brave enough to ask for the manager...thats a good idea in a situation like that.

[Julie]

I don't consider myself to be brave at all. I have avoided countless situations where there was even the slightest chance of either being read when dressed or being read as being CD when in drab. I'm talking about in everyday circumstances, not at places I know to be TG friendly.

In this situation I would have never asked anyone if I could try on the women's clothes I had picked out. For one, I would have been embarassed to be admitting to the sales personnel that this guy before them (me) was a crossdresser and two, I would have expected a 'No!' and three, if they had said yes I would have expected someone to loudly object. To me, that's anything but brave.

That being said, if I had the courage to ask and was granted permission and I chose to take advantage of that, I would have felt perfectly within my rights when using the changing room. If another employee came along and demanded I leave the dressing room I would have changed back to drab and walked out of the room as requested. I would have then explained to the second girl I had been given permission. If security had been called I would have stood up for my rights, not because I wanted to be a martyr for the cause but because I had done nothing wrong and am not about to run away as if I was guilty of some wrongdoing. I would do all this quietly and politely and would fully expect the matter to be seen as a misunderstanding, no harm, no foul.

If security got ugly I would have made sure they knew I was not going to stand for being mistreated. I would have asked for their names and whatever other ID's they had, asked to speak to the manager in charge and let them know I was completely within my rights as one of their employees granted me access to the women's dressing room.

I'm no martyr and I'm no activist but I do believe in standing up for my rights.

On another note, the responses in this thread told me we have little or no chance of receiving the level of acceptance and understanding we seem to universally desire. Too many of us are scared out of our wits that someone will see us dressed or find out we crossdress. If you are ashamed or embarassed of yourself, how will the general public to respond to you? They will treat you like you have something wrong with you because you taught them to.

It seems our society has done a pretty good job at brainwashing you that crossdressing is wrong. Until you truly believe anything to the contrary, to the point of not being embarassed or ashamed of who you are, don't plan on seeing mainstream public coming up to us and saying, "Gee, I was wrong about you. You really are a great bunch of people."

[jo_ann]

I'll never understand this.. Someone who's a true crossdresser (not some creepy lookin guy with a trenchcoat), has a legitimate reason for trying on women's clothes, not trying to get some quick thrill or use it as an excuse to peek over into other fitting rooms. It's a PC society that creates these situations "oh well if we let in the crossdressers we have to let every guy in here.. We can't be discriminatory at the airports".. well yeah. Crossdressers are probably your best customers idiots.. If we try something on and it doesn't quite fit right but fits pretty good, most likely we won't return it for a refund, we'll live with it. If we're treated really good at a store, guess what, we're not going to try somewhere else, we'll keep going back to that same store. Some sales people get it and some don't. I think there's just a mentality of some people that have old fashioned values and think that by outing us that we'll just go away.

[Jen_TGCD]

On another note, the responses in this thread told me we have little or no chance of receiving the level of acceptance and understanding we seem to universally desire. Too many of us are scared out of our wits that someone will see us dressed or find out we crossdress.

Hi, Julie ~

This, of course, is why the Transexual faction of the TG Community are leading the cause for more acceptance and legal rights. They are out and living as women and have more to gain if laws are passed to protect their rights. Most of them have already accepted the loss of family and friends and probably their employment... what else can they lose by actively speaking out against injustice and inequality of their lives.

CDs do not have to depend on being femme 24/7 so they are not as concerned with the issues of equality and bigotry... until they become a victim of it. (Like getting thrown out of Marshall Fields! ...or worse!!!)

[Gets up on soap box...] The TG activists have always known that CDs far outnumber TSs and would love to include them in lobbying for change... but they can't... because only a very few will let themselves be counted. Despite that, changes have been made to include Transgender and Gender Expression as non-discriminatory in many cities and states. You can also thank the Gay and Lesbian Community for including "Gender" in many of their Bills... because it affects them, as well. (The Gay effeminate man or the butch/masculine Lesbian are Gender Expression issues.)

So, yes, change will happen even if CDs remain hidden. However, the process could be accelerated if more would speak up or, at least, give support to those that are working for "your" rights and freedom.

[Gets off of soap box... ]

[Holly]

I'm a union activist so my take on this may be effected by my training in this area. I think that what the Marshall Field store did to this girl was absloutely unconscieonable! How DARE the "mean" salesperson treat any human being with such utter disrespect and disdain. The customer had every right to be where they were, given the fact that she had sought and recieved permission to be there. If an error had been made by the first salesgirl, the means to correct it should have been more humane and shopper friendly. I know that runing when confronted with the possibility of becoming involved with security is insinctive and natural, but as has been pointed out, unless management is made aware of these issues, sadly, they will never be dealt with. And the "mean" salesperson will be there another day to belittle and harass another sister.

On the grander scale, Julie Marie, something you said should resonate throughout our entire community...
On another note, the responses in this thread told me we have little or no chance of receiving the level of acceptance and understanding we seem to universally desire. Too many of us are scared out of our wits that someone will see us dressed or find out we crossdress. If you are ashamed or embarassed of yourself, how will the general public to respond to you? They will treat you like you have something wrong with you because you taught them to. If we don't start taking ourselves seriously and standing up for what is right, how can we possibly expect those outside our community to do so? I'm not suggesting that we all have to go out and look for a fight, but if someone throws one in our lap and we KNOW that we are right, we should be prepared to stand up.

[Holly]

Hi, Julie ~

This, of course, is why the Transexual faction of the TG Community are leading the cause for more acceptance and legal rights. They are out and living as women and have more to gain if laws are passed to protect their rights. Most of them have already accepted the loss of family and friends and probably their employment... what else can they lose by actively speaking out against injustice and inequality of their lives.

CDs do not have to depend on being femme 24/7 so they are not as concerned with the issues of equality and bigotry... until they become a victim of it. (Like getting thrown out of Marshall Fields! ...or worse!!!)

[Gets up on soap box...] The TG activists have always known that CDs far outnumber TSs and would love to include them in lobbying for change... but they can't... because only a very few will let themselves be counted. Despite that, changes have been made to include Transgender and Gender Expression as non-discriminatory in many cities and states. You can also thank the Gay and Lesbian Community for including "Gender" in many of their Bills... because it affects them, as well. (The Gay effeminate man or the butch/masculine Lesbian are Gender Expression issues.)

So, yes, change will happen even if CDs remain hidden. However, the process could be accelerated if more would speak up or, at least, give support to those that are working for "your" rights and freedom.

[Gets off of soap box... ]Jen,
:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Jodi]

I must disagree with Genderblender's post #11. She stated that VS has the policy of no men in the dressing room. I have been in the VS dressing room many times as a guy. My most recent was about three weeks ago to purchase two Ipex bras. Not only did I take in the Ipex to try on, but the SA brought me in another 5 styles to try while I was in there.

The only store that has ever informed me that they had a policy against men using the fitting rooms was an Ann Taylor Loft store in Cinncinatti, OH. At that store, I had three pairs of pants in my hand. When informed that I could not try them on, I just politely handed them to the manager, and said, "great pants. I'm sure I'd get all three pair if they fit". Thanks and walked out.

Jodi

[Noel Chimes]

After reading some of the comments, I would like to add my own 0.02 . For me it's hard enough to "pass", or even try to get out of the house. To acheive these goals mean a lot, and I applaud our sisters who have gone a step further into the sunlight. However we also realize that many parts of america (the land of the free) are still in the dark ages.( I wonder if a run-a-way slave felt this way).
Personally, I am quite comfortable having an opportunity to get out once in a while and be free to be who I choose to be. If someone happens to notice me, I am just a passing smile that they loose in the next minute (W.I.B.).
Follow your heart, and your common sense.
Hugs and kisses, Noel :love:

[Sharon]

On another note, the responses in this thread told me we have little or no chance of receiving the level of acceptance and understanding we seem to universally desire. Too many of us are scared out of our wits that someone will see us dressed or find out we crossdress. If you are ashamed or embarassed of yourself, how will the general public to respond to you? They will treat you like you have something wrong with you because you taught them to.

It seems our society has done a pretty good job at brainwashing you that crossdressing is wrong. Until you truly believe anything to the contrary, to the point of not being embarassed or ashamed of who you are, don't plan on seeing mainstream public coming up to us and saying, "Gee, I was wrong about you. You really are a great bunch of people."

And it's these reactions that I quite frankly expected to read in this thread. As I stated earlier, armchair activists are a dime-a-dozen. "I would have done this" or "I would have done that" are too easy to write, but another thing to actually do.
Personally, and just a bit irrelevantly, I have an easier time standing up for the rights of others, and have done so on many occasions (the issues of which are not necessary to share). But when it comes to standing up for my own rights as a TG customer at a retail establishment, not only do I consider the repercussions against myself, but I consider how my actions will affect my loved ones (as well as how my clients will react and, thus, my pocketbook).
I have a strong regard for doing what is right and standing up for my (and others) rights as a citizen, and if someone was brave enough to stand up for themselves and make this a media issue, then I would like to think I would stand beside that person and damn the consequences.
But, excepting for anonymous statements of bravery in this and other forums, I have as yet to hear of anyone publicly demanding fair access and treatment. As I said before, where is our Rosa Parks? And when "Rosa" finally appears, will there be others to back her up?

[Tamara Croft]

I must disagree with Genderblender's post #11. She stated that VS has the policy of no men in the dressing room. I have been in the VS dressing room many times as a guy. My most recent was about three weeks ago to purchase two Ipex bras. Not only did I take in the Ipex to try on, but the SA brought me in another 5 styles to try while I was in there.I can't agree or disagree with this statement, but perhaps you should ask one of our members 'hot chelsea' regarding VS... because apparently she works there enfemme :rolleyes:

Regarding the original post, I'd have to agree that the person did what only she though right at the time. I can only imagine how embarrased she must have felt knowing that the bitch sales girl was going to fetch security. I think a majority of people put in a confrontational situation like that would have ran out the shop rather than face whatever was coming. I don't agree with what that sales woman did and she had no right to go off like that. I would be writing a letter to the management regarding her behaviour.

[susandrea]

I must disagree with Genderblender's post #11. She stated that VS has the policy of no men in the dressing room. I have been in the VS dressing room many times as a guy. My most recent was about three weeks ago to purchase two Ipex bras. Not only did I take in the Ipex to try on, but the SA brought me in another 5 styles to try while I was in there.

The only store that has ever informed me that they had a policy against men using the fitting rooms was an Ann Taylor Loft store in Cinncinatti, OH. At that store, I had three pairs of pants in my hand. When informed that I could not try them on, I just politely handed them to the manager, and said, "great pants. I'm sure I'd get all three pair if they fit". Thanks and walked out.

Jodi

I once managed a store right next to a flagship Victoria's Secret, and the manager there told me that she was vigilant with her staff that ANY man in there buying merchandise was to be treated with the utmost respect and without any judgement. (I had asked her about crossdressers buying things there).

I never did ask her if they allowed men to try on things, but I may go ask her next time I go down there. When I find out, I'll let you know what she said. :thumbsup:

I also e-mailed VS and asked them exactly what their policy is, as I am curious.

[gender_blender]

I must disagree with Genderblender's post #11. She stated that VS has the policy of no men in the dressing room. I have been in the VS dressing room many times as a guy.

I was merely mentioning the experience of the occuarance as that was the theme of this discussion. It may not be a universal rule of Victoria's Secret, but I was a witness to this situation in a local Victoria's Secret store, but now I am rather curious as to what the chain-wide attitude is concerning transgendered customers.

Disagree all you like, it still happened.


Charlie

[girlintouch]

I think that some one in upper mangement should have been informed about what took place. We are assuming that the "mean girl" is in a superviser, and the "nice" is floor sales. I have een in upper mangment and had to deal with these issues before. Someone pointed out sexual hassment, well I think that is what happened there. All they have to do is make YOU feel uncomfertable, It does not matter what sexaul orintation you are. In any bussiness you have the right to refuse service, well service was beening giving by the nice sales girl, and the mean one had a big problem with him, personly, and made her piont very clear. The mean one tried to make matters worse by making a big public display. If I was her boss, I would have taking meassures wether it be a few days for work to think about her actions or fired her would have to due with store policy. Did you know that a federal court rule that if a man want to teated and appear to dress as a women he has full RIGHT to use the ladies changing and rest rooms wear they work. Here that link

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/aug/05081602.html

[Mandy Salamander]

an interesting idea Julie, try getting as many members of your Chicago group/forum together as possible for a shopping trip to Marshall Fields,, en masse,,, and see their reaction,,,, as you've said,, accepted standards will not change unless challenged...

[Jodi]

Charlie (genderblender), I'm sure the situation happened as you described. My point was that it must not be a national policy as I have used the VS fitting rooms many times. This includes three different VS stores where I have shopped. On several occasions, the manager set up the fitting room for me. My guess is that your situation was a local arbitrary decision made by one person.

Jodi

[Darlene.]

Well folks I have some different thoughts about this.

First: I don’t accept guilt trips from anyone, and cross-dressers get no different treatment from me in this area than from anyone else.

Second: Would it not have made sense to have phoned before going in and get the store policy on this kind of a situation? Then if the mean sales lady was wrong you would at least be armed.

Third: To have remained in the store and face security you would have no guarantee that the nice sales lady would have backed you up by saying she gave you permission. She might have been afraid that she would lose her job.

And fourth: I am a very confrontational person (when I need to be) but I would not have stayed in the store. I would have found a way to address it from outside the store and I would not have needed any ones help to do that. I would not ask for or accept anyone’s help.

And last: I would not attempt to get the mean sales lady fired.

[Fallen Angel]

fisrt of all julie never feel intimidated any where you shop! ive worked retail for years remember one thing you could spend your money any where but you have decided to do buisness there so have that kind of attitude! i would have gotten the store manager involved in this just because of the embarisment of it all. i go shoping for my self all the time so i went to the local mall to debs one of the sales clerks made a coment about me i didnt like so i went home changed and came back fully dressed went right back in there and got the manager involved it was good for me not so good for the sales clerk. im not so easy going!me i would have chalenged the clerk and who ever gave me the hard time. in retail the costumer is always right!!!!!!!!!!! id go back in fem mode and have the clerk that gave me a hard time have to wait on me thats after i spoke with the store manager or id call the store up ask to speak with the store manager tell he or she what happened and find out what there going to do about it and demand a formal im sorry

[Krystal Lee]

Julie,
In all my years of shopping and using the ladies fitting rooms I have only had two bad experiances like that. One was a Dillards in Denver where I had asked to try on some lingerie and recieved permission to do so. I was standing in the room wearing only a bra and cami, a girdle and stockings when the door opened and a "mean" lady said "this is a womens fitting area and you are not allowed in here"!

I was mortified too say the least as she was standing in the door holding it open and I was exposed totally to this woman, (had panties in hand because I had just taken them off getting ready to try on a garter belt) I replyed "you shoulden't be in here either". She then realized what the situation was and closed the door.

I hurriedly dressed and walked out of the fitting area and asked to speak to the manager. A different lady said she was the manager and told me I was not allowed into the fitting room area. I told her I had asked and recieved permission before going in and I had never been so embarassed in my life.

In the back ground I could hear the first girl telling someone she thought I had meant for a wife or girlfriend to use the room. Also I heard someone say the police had been called.

I asked for a discount on my purchase because of my embarassment and was told "we don't do that"!

I did go ahead and but the items because they were what I wanted, and as things were being bagged the police showed up. The manager talked to the officer and he followed me out of the store. He never said a word to me but had a smlie on his face that told me he was going to have a fine time telling this story.

Needless to say I don't shop in that store anymore. Their loss, as I spend way to much on the pretty things I like.

Sorry this was so long but the main thing is I guess I survived the situation and left the store with my head held high, blushing yes but held high.

In hind sight I wish I had demanded to see the store manager but I just wanted to get out of the store and have the whole thing over with. I did not then nor do I now feel I did anything wrong.

The other experiance was not nearly as involved and I will relate that story another time if anyone wants to hear it.

Keep shopping girls and from experiance I can tell you we won't die from embarresment.

Hugs Krystal.

[mchelle]

I have had similar situations, but nothing involving security. First of all, I always ask either in dressed as male or female if I may try on the clothing I wish to purchase.

From my experience, it would seem that Victoria's Secret has rules that no men are allowed inside the dressing rooms. That is, of course, enforced only when they can tell I'm a guy.

From my experience, when I go to Deb's dressed as a guy, they (even my gay friend who works there) won't let me into the dressing room because they too have rules against guys being in there. However they have to let me in when I'm dressed as a female.

If the dressing rooms are as private as she states then perhaps she should have been shown the men's dressing room if for nothing more than to maintain the comfort of the women in the ladies' dressing room.
How does the "mean" sales girl know that the male customer's intentions are legitimate, especially without seeing that person?


Charlie
i was just in Victorias secret this afternoon and got to use the dressing room. and i was a guy. only 1 time in past yr or so i was turned down from using the dressing room. so in 3 diff Victorias Secret i got to use the dressing room, and one she was very helpful and helped me try on a nightie.
i have also been allowed to try on skirts in 3 diff mall stores. and 3 times tried on things at Fredericks. i would think lots of stores would realize the revenue from crossdressers esp when business is down

[StephanieCD]

It's plain discrimination. Plain and simple. He should sue and ask the nice girl if she'd testify. Boy money is as good as girl money and, unless they provide an exclusive "mens" room as well then there was obviously no other place for him to try them on. Being kicked out with threats of security for wanting to ensure a fit is plain fear of the unknown - "oh no, a pervert's in there. what do we do!? I better cover my ass and get him out regardless of the hows or whys because I'm afraid of anything I don't understand"

A competant lawyer could get a large settlement or make a huge stand in court.


Boy money spends as well as girl money. Kiss my pretty little ass. I've imagined many times this same circumstance... sue the f***ers. Plain and simple. Unless, of course, the sign says "women only" - which I highly doubt.

[christy26cd1]

The lesson is, have the nice salesgirl go all the way up the chain before you go in. Fashion Bug in LV when i visited was wonderful.