Transsexualism: Illusion and Reality

[sandra-leigh]

A few minutes ago, I ran across a review (www.janushead.org/7-2/chiland.pdf) of Colette Chiland's 2003 "Transsexualism: Illusion and Reality". It looks like she got a bunch of things wrong, but I found the following part of the review to be of particular interest:


Chiland’s work with intersexed and transsexual people, both children and adults, reveals inconsistencies between what they say and how they
choose to live. For example, in Chiland’s experience, male to female transsexuals say they want to be women, yet they are never feminists; they do not seek equality with men in the workforce, fight for women’s rights to nurse children in public, or feel the need to convince their husbands to share in the
housework. Indeed, the women that these biological men seek reassignment surgery to become are caricatures of actual women. With few exceptions, the idealized women they imagine sport long flowing trusses over long flowing
dresses. In pre-surgery fantasies, these idealized Barbie-doll women await their husbands in the most conventional of home settings and live a life that biological women have been fighting for decades to escape.


In my case, my first conscious foreys into cross-dressing as a young teen grew out of feminism: hearing what things were like for women, I wanted to experience it more directly for myself so that I could better understand it. I couldn't become a woman (well, not then), but I could get the beginning of an approximation by wearing the clothes and seeing for myself how "confining" and "demeaning" pantyhose and dresses and so on were. Well that experiment backfired :heehee:

But the long flowing tresses over long flowing dresses... Urrr, ummm... "I resemble that remark". My preferred mode is not short and sexy but classical and tasteful (well, okay, so maybe some of my tights get a bit wild :D )

I can't imagine myself living a "conventional" female life... mind you I've usually had a rough time picturing myself living a conventional male life!

[kimdl93]

personally, I think ms Chiland's employing stereotypes of her own. As this site demonstrates, we include a full spectrum of individuals in terms of preferences and attitudes.

[Jenna Lynne]

I haven't read Chiland's book, so I don't know whether this reviewer is summing up her views well. Here's a question for you, though: How many genetic females do you know who are actively fighting for the right to nurse in public? Not many, I'll bet -- and in any case, that's hardly a right that would be of much concern to MtF's, except in solidarity with their sisters.

We know that TGs suffer huge job discrimination -- more than women suffer. We have enough trouble just taking care of ourselves without signing on to help others in their struggle. But I think most TGs would agree that in the end, it's all the same struggle, that any sort of job discrimination is to be fought against.

To the extent that TG women have fantasy views of femininity (and I'm sure that's true for some of us), it might help to think of a TG woman who is, let's say, in her 30s as being mentally equivalent to a 12-year-old girl. Twelve-year-old girls have some dreams about femininity too, I'm pretty sure. The TG woman has a lot less experience than a 30-year-old genetic woman in what it's really like to walk around in those heels. Plus, the TG woman is working to reprogram her brain to get rid of a bunch of nasty male habits that didn't work, so it's very natural to want to compensate by going a little overboard in the other direction.

Last but not least ... what's wrong with wanting to be a Barbie doll? Why is that seen as a negative thing? Gee, I don't know. If you don't like it, then just don't ask me where I go to buy my lingerie or pink scrunchies. Problem solved.

Thanks for posting this. Interesting topic!

*** Jenna ***

(Blogging about gender at jennawillow.wordpress.com)

[Nicole Erin]

The author of that book can cram it.
Just another case of "what makes a TRUE transsexual".
Some TS out there are insecure in their trannyness so they have to pick at other TS and be like, "if you really were..."

[sandra-leigh]

Here's a question for you, though: How many genetic females do you know who are actively fighting for the right to nurse in public? Not many, I'll bet

A surprisingly high number of GG's, actually. There was a considerable upset (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/154692/mothers_tell_myspace_breastfeeding.html) when MySpace banned pictures of breast-feeding in 2007.

Around here, if a store requests that a breastfeeding mother move out of sight or cover-up, and someone reports that to the newspaper, then it will make the community column, and the store will get royally roasted by both GG and GM. It isn't a mistake most stores care to make more than once -- the second occurrence will very likely gain them a protest group with signs.

I think I see more cross-dressers around than I see breast-feeding mothers (but then I'm not often at "family restaurants"), but the local women most definitely do not appreciate restrictions on breast feeding.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Wow...i just read the review...

i am lucky that i didnt choke on all the vomit..

[Elizabeth Ann]

I just read the review, and it continues to amaze me how people can assert opinion as absolute fact. It is all the more amazing when they are making these assertions in fields where they are supposed to be experts. I happen to have a PhD in an unrelated field of social science (economics), and I can tell you that nothing vitiates the value of professional opinion so much as being one.

Chiland appears to lump all transexuals into three large baskets, with most of them there because mommy put them there. I have no idea what the profession thinks of her, but I know that my therapist would call this Freudian nonsense. Nor does the reviewer come out well. I was astounded by her comment: "Indeed, there was only one aspect of her work with which I disagreed; that is, that all women experience penis envy. Perhaps this is true of all the participants in her research, but it is certainly not true for the hundreds of American colleagues, students, and clients with whom I have had this discussion over the years." In other words, go ahead and generalize about transexuals, but not women, where I might actually know something.

As to the original posting, I am not a transexual and I cannot talk intelligently about their motivations. For cross dressers, however, I cannot help but observe, from my own life and much reading of this forum and elsewhere, that the traditional male/female social power relationships have something to do with the attraction of cross dressing. There are abundant threads here about how many of us are submissive, or how dressing is an escape from male obligations, etc. Chiland tries to make this grotesque, but I think wanting the idealized traditional female role does play some part for some of us.

Please note that this is not an anti-feminist position. It is not their natural lot in life and women deserve better. Back when the movement was hot and still controversial, I once said to my wife that I could not understand why women were not more militant about this. She replied that I could not understand because I was not raised as a woman.

Liz

[Karen564]

I just read the review..not the entire book...but from what I read in the review, I can't relate to any of it...like it's so way off base in my case on many levels..
I've been interviewed before with a silly set of questions with a narrow choice of answers to choose from, that were written by who knows who, and found that very, very few could be answered accurately given the choices to pick from....yet they tell you that you HAVE to pick the closest one, even if it doesn't match your own personal experience.
So data from some of these researchers get off questionars are far from accurate.

[JulieK1980]

I just read the review..not the entire book...but from what I read in the review, I can't relate to any of it...like it's so way off base in my case on many levels..
I've been interviewed before with a silly set of questions with a narrow choice of answers to choose from, that were written by who knows who, and found that very, very few could be answered accurately given the choices to pick from....yet they tell you that you HAVE to pick the closest one, even if it doesn't match your own personal experience.
So data some of these researchers get off questionars are far from accurate.


I see those types of surveys quite often, and it seems a large number of them are pre-conceived to validate a theory, and lack any real subjectivity. They ask questions, and only have answers that will lead to the conclusion the author of the survey already believes. (whether its accurate or not) That's why I never buy into any statistics or polls, its too likely that they have biases built into them.

There appears to be a lot of narcissism in the author of that as well, and the "findings" appear to just be a way of self justification.:2c:

[Midnight Skye]

Intriguing. I must admit myself... I'm a bit out of touch and the comment "idealized Barbie-doll women await their husbands..." It certainly applies to some of my ways. But to generalize transgendered woman like that... its blindly overlooking most of the MTF population. How many MTF folks decide to transition at 40 or even older? I swear I read a statistic which indicates a significant number of MTF transition when they are 40-50, when the last of their testosterone slips off. Do these girls have that crazy view? No, they just want to be themselves.

Sigh... I find it really sad that this is what people are still publishing about us. Its so blind and misguided... where the heck do they do the research for this kind of thing?

[Myojine]

For example, in Chiland’s experience, male to female transsexuals say they want to be women, yet they are never feminists; they do not seek equality with men in the workforce, fight for women’s rights to nurse children in public, or feel the need to convince their husbands to share in the
housework. ar eyou kidding me?
i bitch and complain about how women are treated so unfairly
i bitch about how women cant be infanttry or combat MOS(artillery and stuff)
a woman shoudl damn well be able to nurse her child in public, thats a child for god sake!

In pre-surgery fantasies, these idealized Barbie-doll women await their husbands in the most conventional of home settings and live a life that biological women have been fighting for decades to escape.
i dont fantasize about what ill look like, i know im not going to be very pretty, and barbie can go shove it with her double F cup and size 000 waist,
Im a lesbien in progress and approve of the ittybittytittycommitee, +imma panty fiend, so miss trans expert can shove it
god i hate these people

[Frances]

Nothing will make you become a feminist faster than living full-time as a woman. As for the dresses and the hair, that is such a double standard and obvious cis-sexism. She is implying that it is okay for genetic women but not for trans-women. Genetic women can do it by birth right, but not "transformed men".

Plus, she is discounting trans lesbians, butch trans women, tomboy trans women. (They exist!) This is obviously not based on any wide-spread empirical study, but a few case studies chosen carefully to prove her pet theory.

I have been full-time for a year myself, and have only worn jeans so far!

Why is everyone so worried about our etiology. I would like some studies on why cisgendered people happen! Oh right, that is unquestionnable.

[Rianna Humble]

In Chiland’s experience, male to female transsexuals say they want to be women, yet they are never feminists; they do not seek equality with men in the workforce, fight for women’s rights to nurse children in public, or feel the need to convince their husbands to share in the housework.

My old self was already known as an ardent feminist, actively promoting equality between men and women. I admit he didn't fight for women's rights, he merely achieved them.

I have already been told by one GG feminist that she can't wait for me to help her organise our local women's action group.

So I guess, guilty as charged. :eek:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Karen, I so agree with you...everything in that review is totally opposite of my experience!!

She looked at some behaviours...JUDGED those behaviours, and then made up reasons for them!!!

One of the thing that haunts me(us?) is that over so many years I repressed myself, and i was ashamed...and other women became very mysterious and i put them on a pedastal..and i looked at it the only way i could...i focused on how women look...it was all i knew about women!!... i tried to make girlfriends, but i got teased mercilessly...so back to worshiping from afar...

i tried again, and everything became a "relationship", which made me very uncomfortable......back to a fantasy life...ugh...

i can't speak for anyone else, but this changes over time as you realize step by step what you doing as a woman and as you spend more time as a woman or in a woman's role...

a woman's life is a thing i could never learn until i just did it...but the "change" happens very slowly and i'll never get rid of all those idealized images i developed over many many years...

that little review gets me pissed off because its so seemingly credible to others and so totally wrong...
i don't think any of us, or anyone that knows us would be able to agree with what she said...

its like its totally made up...double standards and all..
its an attack...

[Beth-Lock]

A few minutes ago, I ran across a review (www.janushead.org/7-2/chiland.pdf) of Colette Chiland's 2003 "Transsexualism: Illusion and Reality". It looks like she got a bunch of things wrong, but I found the following part of the review to be of particular interest:
Originally Posted by Nadine Vaughan
Chiland’s work with intersexed and transsexual people, both children and adults, reveals inconsistencies between what they say and how they choose to live. For example, in Chiland’s experience, male to female transsexuals say they want to be women, yet they are never feminists .... Indeed, the women that these biological men seek reassignment surgery to become are caricatures of actual women. With few exceptions, the idealized women they imagine sport long flowing trusses over long flowing
dresses. In pre-surgery fantasies, these idealized Barbie-doll women await their husbands in the most conventional of home settings and live a life that biological women have been fighting for decades to escape.

In my case, my first conscious foreys into cross-dressing as a young teen grew out of feminism: hearing what things were like for women . . .

But the long flowing tresses over long flowing dresses... Urrr, ummm... "I resemble that remark".

It appears to me that there is some truth in the idea that MTF's want something of traditional femininity, otherwise why not just dress and wear your hair in sort of unisex way, and not have to cross into the difficult territory of cross-dressing or gender transition? I lived that way for some time, until I was ready to go further in exploring living out more of the particularities of the opposite gender. When I went to a lesbian dance, I discovered that lipstick lesbians sort of deplore the idea of most lesbians these days who try and look like guys, or adopt this in a stylistic way. So most MTF's are a sort of lipstick equivalent in the transgendered world. So what?
As for feminism, it is one of the things that has paved the way for more people becoming MTF transexuals, or certainly has made it a lot easier. So for us who have transitioned in these times, like the younger generation of GG's, we take it for granted and are not so strongly motivated to fight for feminist causes, because the hardest of the battles have been won. A little time living as a woman, then is likely to convince the MTF that the victory has been far from perfect, and from that position, we tend to become more feminist in our thinking, though not to eager to seek the limelight and fight about it, because we have been long conditioned to keep to the background when such matters are discussed, and leave it to GG's to be the final arbiters. If traditional, American feminism had been less hostile to men and their intervention, the effect of that sort of conditioning would not be as lingering as it seems to prove.

[hopingsecret]

I'm really glad I read that. Not too long ago I posted a reply that mirrored many of the sentiments in the review. One of the reasons I held such views and had such confusion about myself is that in all the documentries I saw on transgenderism, that's pretty much the image you get. MTFs more "femmy" than any gg you've ever seen and ftms more "butch" than most men. And this always made me doubt.

I like traditional "male" activites such as woodworking and lifting weights. I know there are gg women who like the same, but I was never presented with an image of or met a trans woman like that. Also I really don't want to change those aspects of myself. I want to be nicer, friendlier, and things like that, but I like my hobbies just fine.

But since coming here, reading and talking, actually seeing and hearing from many different tgs, haveing push back on my ideas and now reading and thinkg and reflecting on the review, I've really come to some deeper understanding.

"One might ask “why would a biological man, with all the societal benefits of being born male, choose a life that is often demeaned by men and that so many women find oppressive?” "

Ok, one, yes; there are societal benefits to being male. No doubt. But there are a lot of benefits to female as well. The genders are treated differently. That's a fact. In some instances it's better to be a man and others, it's better to be a woman. But this really puts transgenderism in the wrong light. Transgenderism isn't about societial benefits of one gender vs another. In fact I think the above statement reveals more about the reviewers own intenal biasis and prejudgices.

"So overwhelmed is he by his mother’s smothering delight in her small son’s delicate features and so strong is his need to escape the masculine burden that seems fraught with violence, competitiveness, and disapproval, that he imagines himself female; not female like his mother, but an idealized, more powerful, ultra-feminine version who can stand up to her."

So what about ftms? What, did daddy dolt over how butch his daughter looked? Yes, I admit, I do have family issues in connection with how I feel about my gender (as I discussed in a previous post) but I also had uncles who stepped in and tried to "man me up". So clearly this can't be the only factor. And once again, the almost exclusionary focus on mtfs belies a sort of female chauvanism in the review.

"This fine-tuning distinguishes those who become candidates for transsexual reassignment surgery from those who choose to live lives as homosexuals or marry and perhaps turn to transvestism."

Uh-huh. Did you get that line from Pat Robinson? Last time I checked Homosexuality wasn't a choice.

" . . .her thesis that psychological reasons are more important than biological ones."

Ok, I do kind of agree with this one. As I said before, my body is fine. I have all the parts I'm supposed to and all are in working order. It's in my head that I'm not happy with it. But if brain and body don't agree and the brain can't be changed, then that leaves only one option.

"Chiland asserts that individuals who make this life-changing surgical decision make it based less on what they want to become—their understanding is usually quite superficial—and more on their unequivocal experience of loathing toward the genitalia with which they were born."

Ah, no. I don't hate my gentials. As far as male junk goes, it's all ok. Nothings deformed or oozing and as the exsitence of my son attests, it all works as well, I just don't want it.

"Indeed, the women that these biological men seek reassignment surgery to become are caricatures of actual women. With few exceptions, the idealized women they imagine sport long flowing trusses over long flowing dresses. In pre-surgery fantasies, these idealized Barbie-doll women await their husbands in the most conventional of home settings and live a life that biological women have been fighting for decades to escape."

Once again; ahh - no. Do I want to be a beautiful woman?- sure. But what woman doesn't? How many little girls go to be at night praying to God to make them an ugly hag when they grow up. Also I'm not waiting for any man. I like women. I don't want to be a haus frau, just a frau.

And this is where it all starts to become clear. A fellow member told me to stop reaserching and just asked who I am and what I want. Well I know what I want. I want to be female. I want a vagina, uterus, and overies. I want to be a woman. That's who I am. That's what I came here to figure out and that's what I've come to accept.

Now if I could just figure out what next.:D

[Hope]

Ms. Chiland seems to be of the mistaken belief that "real" women are all feminists with short hair who want to nurse in public. Oh wait. Sounds like she hasn't looked around outside for quite a while. Oh what splendid variation her life lacks.

I think if you are going to try to pass off opinion as fact, or at the very least if you are going to stake your professional reputation on a BS theory, you should at least try to make your argument harder to poke holes in - you should make your affirmative statements internally valid... I mean... come on! Is she serious? I mean - you don't have to have a bloody Ph.D to realize her "theory" is full of holes, you don't even have to do research... you just have to have eyes and have been to the mall and be able to point out that "geeee... your theory doesn't seem to fit the data..." To quote James Earl Jones in "Field of Dreams:" "Go back to the 60's hippie, there is no place for you here!"

[sometimes_miss]

Nadine Vaughan wrote:
Chiland’s work with intersexed and transsexual people, both children and adults, reveals inconsistencies between what they say and how they choose to live. <snip> With few exceptions, the idealized women they imagine sport long flowing trusses over long flowing dresses. In pre-surgery fantasies, these idealized Barbie-doll women await their husbands in the most conventional of home settings and live a life that biological women have been fighting for decades to escape.
The problem with this concept is that Vaughan and I suppose Chiland both assume what some woman want, with what all women want. Women, like men, are a diverse group. There are plenty of women out there that want a traditional very distinct male female relationship, and don't necessarily want to take on all the male behavior and responsibilities. In fact, I'd wager that most women DO NOT want all the male responsibilities. A good example: After I lost my job and had to take one for less than half my previous pay, my wife, who also was one of those women who always complained about men having 'all the fun prerogitives' in life, was outside mowing the lawn. When the mower bogged down, she flipped it over without taking the electric key out, essentially making it ready to chop off her hand should the mower shift a bit and push the handle to the 'on' position. When I pulled her out of the way she got mad; I told her what she was doing was very dangerous and why. Then I explained that by being careless, we could easily lose our house, because one income wouldn't be enough for the mortgage, and she was now also responsible for being able for us to pay the mortgage. She said, 'So, if I wasn't able to work, we'd lose the house?'. I told her yes, now she was just as responsible as I was for our being able to keep our home. She was very upset at that idea, and said she wasn't comfortable with that. A whole lot of women want all the benefits of being a guy, with none of the responsibilities. Then they get the shock of their lives when faced with reality because it's something they never thought about. The day I got my draft card, my sister wasn't bothered; when my birthday turned up 43 in the lottery, THAT really shook her up, and then she told me she was glad she wasn't a guy, despite all her complaints of how limiting it was to be a girl when she was growing up (several of her classmates had died in Viet Nam). Oh; her birthday that year? #6. I told her that to really screw with her mind (hey, I was 19, she was 4 years older and treated me like crap my entire life, so I was just enjoying a little revenge).

So, just the same, I'm sure some transsexuals only see the up side of becoming a woman. But it certainly doesn't apply to all of them.

[busker]

Everybody here is ranting about the review and reviewer. Maybe it would be best to actually read the book and then draw some conclusions based on a first hand reading--this is largely like gossip about gossip about gossip. The reviewer could be just full of s..t and the author might actually have made a point.
I've read a lot of movie reviews in my life and I can say for a fact that about 50 percent of them missed the mark by a long way. Read the book first hand--don't rely on what someone says about what someone say about someone says................
That is exactly how we got into Iraq--someone said that someone saw and that........

[Traci Elizabeth]

What a wonderful story. I enjoyed reading it.

OH wait! This wasn't a fictional comic book?

[Melissa A.]

Out of all the trans women I know, I'm probably one of the girliest, something I take crap for all the time, but it's not directed at me maliciously, just friends having fun with me. Point being I'm pretty much a day-to-day jeans and t shirt girl, I AM a feminist, and no one would accuse me of being hyper-feminine, or wanting a man to depend on and serve. Ugh. Once again, we aren't allowed to be real women, who just live their lives, and enjoy being a girl now and then. Cis superiority and ignorant judging At it's worst. What a stoopid woman, and load of crap. Grrr.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Karan49]

This is only a review and we all know how wrong reviews can be. In college I studied psychology and many texts explained Freud's theories. I had the chance to take an independent study class in which I was able to read many of his original but translated works. Even some simple word such as 'perversion' was taken out of context. Freud defined perversion as any pleasure seeking activity that didn't lead to procreation. He suggested that all animals including humans are born 'polymorphously perverse' meaning that all animals including humans are born to seek pleasure which includes touching, eating, deficating, urination among other things. There was no judgement about this pleasure seeking on his part. This was merely instinct. He didn't condemn homosexuality or any kind of sexuality or even the other forms of pleasure seeking such as drug use. The only judgement I discovered was by the authors of text books who explained all that Freud said or meant.

I'm somewhat familiar with some of the feminist-psychoanalytical work such as Chiland's and they have a unique perspective; one we might actually get something from if we were to read the original work rather than a mere review.

Karan

[Stephanie Anne]

what is this the 1970s? People like this make me wonder if they write something like this then live the rest of their life regretting what they wrote?

I'll admit, I am opinionated but I doubt I would ever try and push such vitriol toward a group of people I obviously have not spent any time understanding.

[Beth-Lock]

Dear Busker,
While I have too heavy a reading load as it is, it would be nice if someone got a copy of the book and could fill us all in on how the content of the book contrasts with the review.
I have looked in vein for another review of the book, but have come up empty handed when querying the top book review periodical for the English language, The Times Literary Supplement. This of course assumes that the book has enough, or any significance for the general, but highly literate reader to be covered in such a review.
Alarm bells rang for me when the reviewer referred to the scandal plagued Dr. Money as a being in support of such theses. (Application of his theories in his work has been associated with the fairly recent suicide of his most famous patient, about whom a book was written and much television coverage was received.)
My personal experience has led me to say, many times, 'God save us from the psychoanalysts.' The few faithful among them remaining are an embarrassing laughing stock in psychiatry.

[goofus]

personally, I think ms Chiland's employing stereotypes of her own. As this site demonstrates, we include a full spectrum of individuals in terms of preferences and attitudes.

Couldn't have said it better myself :iagree:

[~Michelle~]

A surprisingly high number of GG's, actually. There was a considerable upset (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/154692/mothers_tell_myspace_breastfeeding.html) when MySpace banned pictures of breast-feeding in 2007.


Can you define "considerable" in this context?

[sandra-leigh]

Can you define "considerable" in this context?

More than 97,600 people (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2008581691_facebook02.html) for the Facebook equivalent protest.

[nikkijo]

More than 97,600 people (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2008581691_facebook02.html) for the Facebook equivalent protest.

1% of the population on facebook is not considerable...

[michelle2b]

Originally Posted by Nadine Vaughan
Chiland’s work with intersexed and transsexual people, both children and adults, reveals inconsistencies between what they say and how they
choose to live. For example, in Chiland’s experience, male to female transsexuals say they want to be women, yet they are never feminists; they do not seek equality with men in the workforce, fight for women’s rights to nurse children in public, or feel the need to convince their husbands to share in the
housework. Indeed, the women that these biological men seek reassignment surgery to become are caricatures of actual women. With few exceptions, the idealized women they imagine sport long flowing trusses over long flowing
dresses. In pre-surgery fantasies, these idealized Barbie-doll women await their husbands in the most conventional of home settings and live a life that biological women have been fighting for decades to escape.


As a feminist who seeks equality with men in the workforce and wears my hair short and wears a dress only once or twice a year and tries to tone down my attractiveness before I go out in public, I guess then I would be an exception to Chiland's impression about trans people. Oh, and I do not need a husband or a man to be a woman. So there!

[Empress Lainie]

I was a feminist long long before I knew I was a woman.
I believed in equal rights for women in everything, and was very vocal at times.

[Rianna Humble]

Here's a question for you, though: How many genetic females do you know who are actively fighting for the right to nurse in public?

Well, I'm quite proud that a GG former minister who I know slightly and my GG former MP (and very good friend) were at the forefront of making that into a legal right for any woman living in the UK. Not sure if that counts.