Is it ok to judge sometimes?

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Hey all, haven't been able to contribute much on here lately because since moving I've had a lack of a lot of free time for internet posting and such. But I've had a customer come into my work here a couple of times, and something about her has bothered me when she comes in and I just wondered how others felt about it.

She's an obvious crossdresser, doesn't pass, which obviously isn't an issue for me. What bothers me about her is the way she behaves when she comes in. There's something over the top about all of her mannerisms, not in a drag type of way where it's stagey or diva-ish, but more like she's trying to be really fluid and feminine in how she moves but is waay waaay waaay overcompensating and instead she literally seems to fling her body around as she moves. It comes across as extremely affected and unnatural and is really offputting for everyone she comes into contact with including me. On top of that is her voice, she's attempting a feminine voice but she's again way overdoing it, it's very high pitched and obnoxious and somewhat grating. On top of that she's kind of rude. The guy she was with asked me a question about where something was and I was telling them which aisle it was in and she cut me off and went "Nope! not there, try again." and then kept cutting me off as I tried to tell them where the item was. After she staggered away, I went down the aisle and found the item they were asking about.

The thing is, I deal with annoying customers a lot. I may get frustrated with rude people or such but with her I find myself really bothered when she comes in, I guess because I can see how much attention she draws to her, and I see how every time she walks by someone, they react. Every group of people giggles behind her back or has a "holy crap" type of reaction. I guess that's what bothers me, because I feel like she directly creates a really negative image of crossdressers for people who otherwise don't get a lot of exposure to us. I know I should be more of a "Hey everyone has their own way of expressing themselves" type a person but is there a point where it's kind of ok to judge another person, or at least wish they were a bit more aware of negative an impact their behavior has on others?

I guess in the end, some people are just obnoxious or rude people and how they dress doesn't change it?

[mklinden2010]

It's OK to use your brain - that's what it's for...

Your CD customer, sounds like a "type" in the "alternate lifestyle" world... But, not really so alternate...

Either a nut, no matter how he/she presents, or, a drunk, or, something along those, "outta control" lines.

There's a saying, "If what you're doing is not causing a problem, then it's not a problem."

This person is causing problems.

And, everybody is noticing it.

The good news is it's obviously a personal set of issues this person has and not likely to be widely applied to other groups he/she belongs to...

Like being Catholic, being a war vet, being a former football player.

Not "another weird CD." Just "another weird person."

People get it, just like you do.

So, "Be kind. But, not blind." with this one.

It's OK.

[AllieSF]

I like Mklinden's response. It appears that this woman specifically wants to draw attention to herself as a Tgirl. That is how she is. So in my opinion, just let her live her life as she pleases. You really do not see her that often. I am sure someone will, or already has, told her how she is. So, I don't think any comments from you will help her. That is, unless you befriend her somehow, get to know her so that you could tell her how she acts is a little off putting, or ask her, as a friend, why does she act like that. She may not know what she is doing (I doubt it).

[sterling12]

A Customer is sometimes wrong.......but, they are always The Customer! Obviously, she's getting under your skin a bit. If you think that you might momentarily react and say something smart, or something that could be misconstrued, she is probably The Type of Person who would complain loud and long!

Simple Answer, she's not your business! If you can, find a co-worker to serve her and avoid a confrontation.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Nicole Erin]

She don't get it I guess cause the PROPER way for a CD or TS to act is to blend into society.

But yeah she is probably one of those who would sit there and bitch and act stupid.

[Midnight Skye]

Well... what you're doing isn't really judging but rather observing the obvious. If someone doesn't fit, is annoying, or rude. Then at that time and sometimes in the future... that's what they are. From the sounds of it you're not reading into it any more than you should.

Now with that said... everything you're stating sounds like she's learning how to be female... Its not like anyone gives us a crash course in female etiquette 101. We just fail miserably at it a bunch of times till we start figuring it out ;) Of course... she could simply be built that way... we all have personality flaws after all... my personal list is quite endless lol.

[eluuzion]

Someplace along the line, probably in early childhood, this person developed a dysfunctional social strategy to feed a low self-esteem. When I encounter this personality type, I always get this image in my mind of a little kid screaming for Mom's attention...who is preoccupied yakiing with her friend on the phone.

You know the type....you can observe it in any grocery store. The obnoxious little kid grabbing the candy from the rack at the check-out register (with the oblivious mom focused elsewhere. No johnny, no johnny, no johnny.....no follow-up by mom.

Just like barking puppies. Ignore the problem and it only gets bigger (and taller). I am always more curious about what the parents or caretakers were like and the environment that caused the strategy to be chosen.

Sadly, these people are just compensating for a low self-image and the strategy just exacerbates their emotional isolation and fuels the same behavior.

I agree that these folks can be explosive...an accident looking for a location.,.

[TxKimberly]

Well... what you're doing isn't really judging but rather observing the obvious. . . .


I'm with skye on this. It also occurs to me that what matters the most here is what you do not what you think. In this case, as annoying and irritating as you found her to be, still you treated her like any other customer and gave her courtesy and assistance. Had you treated her poorly as a result of your opinions, then I might find fault with you.

As far as I can tell from this post, your still entitled to think of yourself as the good guy!

[docrobbysherry]

Unfortunately, EVERYONE DOES IT!:doh:

Unless they're; dead, unconscious, or under the age of 2!:straightface:

( And, I'm NOT so sure about those LAST TWO!):brolleyes:

[Ms Jennifer]

I agree with the girls.This person has a problem.You don't.So,be nice and worry about how you feel,and don't let this person drag you down to her lower level.

[Allyson Michelle]

well, we as humans will always judge. Its inevitable.

Everyone has their own "skeletons" and try their darnedest to hide them. Obviously this individual is VERY flamboyant and doesn't care who knows it. Its only natural to judge, even though we are subject to judgment frequently.

If ur not being judged, then you are a square. and NOBODY likes a square!

(50th POST!!!):w00t:

[Sara Jessica]

Hey all, haven't been able to contribute much on here lately because since moving I've had a lack of a lot of free time for internet posting and such.

I'm glad to see you back here, I always enjoy your writing and appreciate your POV.


But I've had a customer come into my work here a couple of times, and something about her has bothered me when she comes in and I just wondered how others felt about it. She's an obvious crossdresser, doesn't pass, which obviously isn't an issue for me. What bothers me about her is the way she behaves when she comes in.

Does this person wear a button which says "I'm a crossdresser"? It's probably a fair assumption based on your observation and you're likely right on but when we're out and about, others don't really know how we self-identify underneath our outer presentation. More on this later.


There's something over the top about all of her mannerisms, not in a drag type of way where it's stagey or diva-ish, but more like she's trying to be really fluid and feminine in how she moves but is waay waaay waaay overcompensating and instead she literally seems to fling her body around as she moves. It comes across as extremely affected and unnatural and is really offputting for everyone she comes into contact with including me.

This is a good lesson for those who seek advice in how to "walk like a woman" or "have mannerisms like a woman". For example, an overt effort to add a swing to the hips often comes across as contrived and artificial. Best to be observant of natal women and be somewhat subtle in emulation. Practice and allow for some natural grace to shine through, if that is what one strives for.


On top of that is her voice, she's attempting a feminine voice but she's again way overdoing it, it's very high pitched and obnoxious and somewhat grating.

Same thing, overcompensating in voice land often leads to a result which is swishy at best and downright artificial at worse. Just as with walk and mannerisms, practice in an effort to find a natural balance.


On top of that she's kind of rude.

Rude knows no gender.


The thing is, I deal with annoying customers a lot. I may get frustrated with rude people or such but with her I find myself really bothered when she comes in, I guess because I can see how much attention she draws to her, and I see how every time she walks by someone, they react.

Such behavior is likely the guy underneath bleeding through. This person probably flips people off on the freeway at the drop of a hat. Clearly no decorum.


Every group of people giggles behind her back or has a "holy crap" type of reaction. I guess that's what bothers me, because I feel like she directly creates a really negative image of crossdressers for people who otherwise don't get a lot of exposure to us. I know I should be more of a "Hey everyone has their own way of expressing themselves" type a person but is there a point where it's kind of ok to judge another person, or at least wish they were a bit more aware of negative an impact their behavior has on others?

This is the really unfortunate part of your tale. Let's assume your first impression is correct, that this person is in fact a crossdresser, a part-time one at that. They go out and leave stains behind such as this, then return home, take off the woman, and go about life in guy mode. The damage caused doesn't really affect this person too much, they clearly don't care. But we really need to be conscious of how our presentation affects those who come after us, particularly those who are full time. Again, even those who we encounter who happen to have some insight into the variety within the tg community cannot tell exactly how we self-identify (CD? TS? Somewhere in between? Full-time, part time or somewhere in between???). Any time we go out we are representing all who are tg, not just the segment we identify with.


I guess in the end, some people are just obnoxious or rude people and how they dress doesn't change it?

Right on!!! Thank you for posting such a thoughtful thread.

[Lorileah]

Some people believe that the best way to get their point across is to be in your face. Loud and proud. Squeaky wheel. This person has no desire to further the cause of the TG community. They only want to be noticed. Maybe their mother weaned them too early, we know that is the cause of behavioral problems in dogs (I think I just called her a dog...I am so sorry and I apologize to the dogs). These are the people who get TV time and get noticed on the street. It is hard to not have them be our representatives even if they aren't representative.

Having worked in retail before one of our rules was when asked where something was in the store we took them to it, took it off the shelf and placed in their hand. That would have overcome the "No it isn't!" attitude. Then smile (your best patronizing smile in this case) and say, "is there anything else I can help you with (B*tch)?" Do the snap and wave of your fingers and walk away mumbling how her shoes were absolutely atrocious and her lipstick looked like a clown taught her to put it on (oh sorry again...I was just thinking back). Yes I judge, I can't stop it but I can keep it internalized.

[Elsa von Spielburg]

I guess in the end, some people are just obnoxious or rude people and how they dress doesn't change it?

Yes.

Cookie? Gold star? Pat on the head?

[DonnaT]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, which is based on judgment, usually/hopefully.

So, yes, it's ok to judge, but don't openly criticize her where you work. Keep it to yourself instead.

[kimdl93]

I think people can and should be held responsible for their behavior, regardless of how they may choose to dress. If someone is being rude, obnoxious, belligerent, or otherwise being a jerk, then the people confronted with such behavior have every right to respond. Of course, what constitutes rude, obnixious, etc is always going to be in the eye of the beholder, so as adults we try to be tolerant....up to a point.

[JulieC]

I guess that's what bothers me, because I feel like she directly creates a really negative image of crossdressers for people who otherwise don't get a lot of exposure to us.

Not being snarky here; bear with me.

This customer of yours didn't sign an agreement to be a goodwill ambassador for the crossdressing community. I don't like seeing ANYbody be obnoxious, ill mannered, etc. I can choose to act based on that and the setting I'm in. If I'm not at work, I can choose to avoid, disconnect, ignore, etc. If at work, my time belongs to someone else and I'll do the best of my ability to act in a way that furthers the aims of my employers.

If this person is happy with the persona she presents, then fine. I don't have to accept it, and outside of work I most likely wouldn't. At work, it wouldn't be my place to say or do anything in negative response to that.

[Dutchess]

I have actually mentioned something like this that happened to me a GG here before on another thread on another subject sometimes ago .

You in my eyes are ALL beautiful and interesting people and being married to a CD-er isnt a problem either ( well unless you count my problem over in loved ones I am about to ask about )

I did have a non passing CD-er come way too close into my space at a gas station some years ago and it scared me . Everything showed ,,everything,,stubble everywhere, dress didnt fit ,make up was just crazy and her wig was at a really wild angle and she kept coming up close to me at the gas pumps swirlng her skirt and making eyes at me . It really frightened me . She was much taller and bigger than I and I just didnt know what to think . I didnt want to be judgemental at all , I am all for everyone expressing themselves anyway they want to without hurting anybody, but I know I thought she was a nut that day . So I am sure I judged out of fear . I didnt know if she was a real but confused/maybe drunk CD-er or someone trying to jack with me.

[TxKimberly]

I have actually mentioned something like this that happened to me a GG here before on another thread on another subject sometimes ago .

You in my eyes are ALL beautiful and interesting people and being married to a CD-er isnt a problem either ( well unless you count my problem over in loved ones I am about to ask about )

I did have a non passing CD-er come way too close into my space at a gas station some years ago and it scared me . Everything showed ,,everything,,stubble everywhere, dress didnt fit ,make up was just crazy and her wig was at a really wild angle and she kept coming up close to me at the gas pumps swirlng her skirt and making eyes at me . It really frightened me . She was much taller and bigger than I and I just didnt know what to think . I didnt want to be judgemental at all , I am all for everyone expressing themselves anyway they want to without hurting anybody, but I know I thought she was a nut that day . So I am sure I judged out of fear . I didnt know if she was a real but confused/maybe drunk CD-er or someone trying to jack with me.


You know, one thing I've learned as a result of over a decade in the army, and having made it to the age of 44, is to ALWAYS trust your instincts - ALWAYS. If someone gives you the creeps and makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck, you need to pay attention to that, you need to trust that feeling, and you need to react appropriately. If this person gave you the creeps that bad, I'd be willing to bet just about anything that there was a reason for it.

[joandher]

Obviously this C/Der isn't on this forum, and that is why you never see the girls from this forum, because they have listened to great advise, and blend in too well

:hugs:

J-JAY

[Alice Torn]

TxKim, How i wish i had learned that lesson, decades ago, rather than try to befriend everyone. Unfortunately my family and parents were and still are abusive.

[Kate Simmons]

I guess you have to decide that for yourself my friend. I hesitate to point fingers, as when I do there are always three pointing back at myself.:)

[Dutchess]

You know, one thing I've learned as a result of over a decade in the army, and having made it to the age of 44, is to ALWAYS trust your instincts - ALWAYS. If someone gives you the creeps and makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck, you need to pay attention to that, you need to trust that feeling, and you need to react appropriately. If this person gave you the creeps that bad, I'd be willing to bet just about anything that there was a reason for it.

Thanks Kimberly ,, that actually makes me feel better after oh I dont know how many years ago this happened. I have felt guilty occasionally for giving this person such a cold shoulder. I've thought about it several times.

[Rianna Humble]

What bothers me about her is the way she behaves when she comes in. There's something over the top about all of her mannerisms, not in a drag type of way where it's stagey or diva-ish, but more like she's trying to be really fluid and feminine in how she moves but is waay waaay waaay overcompensating and instead she literally seems to fling her body around as she moves. It comes across as extremely affected and unnatural and is really offputting for everyone she comes into contact with including me.

Playing devils advocate for a moment. Are you absolutely sure that she is overcompensating and that she does not have some kind of motor control problem when she moves around?

One of my former employers had some really good disability confidence training where they showed some behaviour - together with the most frequent reaction to it, then they explained the problem behind the behaviour and showed their preferred way for employees to respond.

One scenario appeared to be a drunk on the phone - until they let you see the customer and explained that this person had cerebral palsy :eek:.

OTOH, your analysis might be spot on.

[Nicole Erin]

Playing devils advocate for a moment. Are you absolutely sure that she is overcompensating and that she does not have some kind of motor control problem when she moves around?



One can tell the difference between motor skill issues and someone who is acting stupid.

Thing is, some TG are total flakes.

There is this eternal debate about what causes TG-ism, and maybe it had something to do with being in the womb and something happening.

On the other hand, I think there is a small section of the TG community who are just so off their rockers that acting and dressing like a woman is some deeper problem that has nothing to do with being TG. The CD you saw might be dillusional in many ways.

[Michaela42]

Okay, let me pose a question.

I too work in customer service and there is one person who comes into the store regularly who is of an ethnic background (pick one) and this person has really offensive body odor (gag me like body odor). Is it okay for me to assume that every person of this ethnic background that I meet in the future will have the same problem?

Short answer: NO!

So this CD is over the top with her mannerisms and she makes people uncomfortable; that means everyone who reacts to her should find all CD's uncomfortable? Out of 6.7+ billion people on this planet I am sure that one or two of them will make you want to run the other way, but that is no reason to judge similar people by the same criteria. You know, the old: Don't judge a book by it's cover bit.

Remember, she is annoying, not every CD or TV will be the same. :2c:

[donnalee]

And then there's this-
"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time, and irritates the pig." - Robert Heinlein :devil:

[ReineD]

JiveTurkey, I don't know how much compassion you have in your heart for this person or even if what I am about to suggest would be overstepping your bounds in your job, but could you take her aside one day and ask if she's free to meet you for coffee strictly as friends?

Then perhaps you could tell her about you and your association with this forum? And maybe point her towards a few well chosen youtube videos? You might tell her that a good way to gauge whether a femme voice is convincing is to record it and post it on youtube, then compare it to the other voices that are convincing. She could also tape herself walking and moving about, and compare that to other videos of TGs.

Maybe she just is not aware of the effect she has on others. Many people do not have an ability for accurate self-evaluation. IMO she needs a friend who will help her see that she will be much more feminine if she doesn't force it so much. She needs someone to tell her that it comes from within, hopefully a friend who is caring and who she comes to trust.

Just a thought.

[Joanne f]

Maybe she likes the way she is and like most people do not what anyone else telling her how she should act walk and talk , maybe we should all send in videos of our selves to make sure we are doing it Right .:angry:

Maybe a lot of the public would consider that it is to much for any man to go out in a skirt ,dress, wearing bracelets,rings makeup or a wig and act feminine , so maybe we should encourage them to tell us when they see us that we do not act like a normal human male.

[CherryZips]

Does anyone wonder how much this CDs personality is related to their CDing?

I'm not saying CDs are mean but the choices this person has taken, how they have dealt with their desires has given them this anti social persona.

I think the way people deal with any of life's cards can cause us to take an awkward route. Its interesting to see how this path might have been taken and where they ended up.

[Alberta_Pat]

Ryan;

It seems that this "Lady" comes into your store with some regularity. Does she always come with the same person or people?
If so, perhaps you can slip a piece of paper to the familiar with the address of this forum. It might help this "Lady" to find herself if she reads some of the posts here.

As for your original question, we all judge, all the time. Right or wrong, to do so makes no difference. It is more important to offer helpful information if we find something we find reprehensible, rather than to be mean or nasty.

Perhaps this "Lady" just needs some gentle information on how to behave like a human being?

[ReineD]

maybe we should all send in videos of our selves to make sure we are doing it Right .:angry:

I'm sorry you took it that way Joanne.

[Dana]

Thanks Kimberly ,, that actually makes me feel better after oh I dont know how many years ago this happened. I have felt guilty occasionally for giving this person such a cold shoulder. I've thought about it several times.

After getting back out her in civilian la~la land? I'm here to confirm that the world is populated with mostly idiots and ignorant, sparely uneducated people. Most of whom have been religiously, culturally and socially conditioned of independent thought?

They unconditionally belive in lies, beliefs, fallacies that are willing die for in believing.

I'm transgender ~ yet have zero attention nor attraction toward men ~ nor interest in such ~ and fail to see what GG see in such.

To best describe it I am very much drawn toward women, feminity and such?

Problem is? Most women are drawn toward masculinity and such?

Twenty years in the Marines I don't need to validate my masculanity?

[Maryesther M.]

A customer is just that and one may observe and pidgeon-hole them as one will.
Everyone has their reasons for appearing and/or behaving as they do. The older they are the more 'baggage' they carry.
As a Medical practitioner my days are filled with meeting all and sundry. They come to me and each and every one of them came out their front door with a visit to me in mind. All are seeking my help in some way, and I respect all of them and treat them accordingly.
My game also teaches one to be a careful observer. It's the key to being able to offer them useful help.
Advice is always based on some sort of judgement, but the last thing you want to appear to be is judgemental.