Crossdressing in the eyes of the FAA

[Pythos]

I am fairly new to the group.

I really really and sincerely hate the fact I feel the need to hide what I do at all.

I know you have all heard the usual whines "I'm not hurting anyone" "Women do it everyday, it's just accepted" and so on.

The only real reason I do full on cross dressing (that is with tucking and breast forms), is because it is fun, and one day I was asked by a friend to do full on, out of curiosity. Basically she said "I'll bet you would look really hot crossdressed". The odd thing is, all of the clothing items I have, I have worn in "male mode" out and about.

My male mode is essentially just my normal male self (no wig or make up), that aside from the clothing on the lower half, looks completely normal male (whatever that is :))

Though my androgynous look is quite "feminine" (long hair and makeup), it is unquestionably male to the casual observer.

That being said, I work in the ultra macho world of flying. I have always loved aircraft as long as I could remember, just about as long as the thought "why do girls get to have boy's hair cuts, and wear boy's clothes, but I can't have long hair and wear skirts? :))

My biggest fear when it comes to what I do (both androgyny and CDing) is that my job will find out, and effectively kill my career in aviation. I feel I even need to seriously curtail my goth look, due to the misapprehensions brought on by ONE event where "Goths" were involved in a mass murder. (funny how people dressed like gang bangers, a group connected to MANY killings and crime get more of a pass than Goths who have NEVER been connected to a crime. Ten years after Columbine the news media and police came out and said those two shooters had nothing to do with the Goth community....Well duh, Goths aren't violent, we are the passive punks. LOL)

I also get concerned about if the FAA ever finds out.

Does any one here have information, or experience concerning this. Are my fears unwarranted?

My job and my mother (No hope with her, she is firmly stuck in the 50s) are the only people I actively keep my dress style secret from. All my friends that are not in anyway connected to aviation know....and like, my style.

[Jenny J]

Hasn"t hurt mine or the dozen others that are on here. But there is a definite line between dressing and working. Now there are several other girls that fly en femme and they have to deal with the TSA. Haven’t heard of any of them having any problems but you never know.

Jen
:rose2:

[Sarah Michelle]

I can fully appreciate the concerns that you have with work finding out. Until I retired I worked for a police service. Talk about macho, testosterone-fueled, and narrow-minded; back-in-the-day they were probably kings of that castle. They are a little better these days but there is still a lot of pretense rather than acceptance, and we haven't changed behaviours, we've just caused attitudes to be shelved during work hours.
I was in denial until I retired. It caused me no end of psychological problems but here we are.
Good luck, work and dressing may have to stay separate for both to remain safe and secure..

[April Renee]

As long as your urine analysis and hair samples contain no illegal substances the FAA has no say on what you chose to wear when you fly. Safety is the their main purpose not fashion.
.
April

[newby]

I don't think they can say anything,not if they don't want a lawsuit and besides if I fly I don't care if the pilot is in a dress just as long as they can fly.

[Josie M]

I'm confused, are you a professional pilot or do you work directly for the FAA?

I have some experience working with the FAA. Feel free to PM me if you'd like, I might be able to shed some light or point you in a good direction at least.

[TxKimberly]

I can't speak from experience, but what I can do is to assure you that there are a LOT of us that are pilots. I have personally met three other TG's that are commercial pilots, and while I don't think any of them are "out" at work, they clearly are still able to live their lives. By the way, all three are on this forum, so I will let them speak for themselves. I see my bud Jenny has already piped up!

[suzy1]

I think if you are an instructor at a flying club it would matter. You know what people are like. A student might get a bit distracted on final approach.
I guess the same goes for passengers boarding a commercial jet and seeing you dressed.
I would be fine with it obviously but as a passenger and student pilot myself I can see it from there point of view.

SUZY

[Mikaela]

There is nothing in the FARs about it, although there may be general uniform policies. There's nothing illegal per se, but like any job, the repercussions are never what we expect.

/PP-ASEL

[SusanCACD]

I know, I have been outed cause of my profile on urnotalone. Aviation is a very macho field to be in. Somehow all of a sudden I have no mind, no original thoughts, it's funny how I went from hero to zero in the flash of a e mail sent through the company, from who? Who knows, probably some loser wanting to hurt someone. I even had a restroom wall decorated by someone that just does not think I should be allowed to live. Imagine that, in a field of work where the mind is the most important asset, we actually have to have people to work in the stock room to issue parts and what not. Hell, I know some that were welfare recipients before getting a job in customer support, and make more than I do!!! Ah well, life is a shit sandwich and every day is another bite. Be sure to bury you heart and feelings away, be afraid, be very afraid, Good luck

[Niya W]

I know a commercial air pilot in the bay area that is a Cd and out to cow workers . He is still flying, infarct this pilot introduced me to some visiting CD pilots . They chosse to drive from Canada instead of flying .

[eluuzion]

Well, the world is full of "the way things should be" and "the way things are".

Some careers are more confined to playing the role the industry image demands. Some "rules" are implied and enforced, even though they only exist in the peer group "rulebook" etched into every persons' mind that is employed in that particular industry. Violating those "invisible" rules is ultimately committing "career suicide".

Some careers require more devotion to "image" than others. A company I used to be with had a fleet of private jets and 3 corporate pilots. I was close friends with 2 of them. We would talk about your issues alot (not specifically "CD" stuff, but same conceptual issues).

Image is a big factor. Dressing in a clown outfit when you are a funeral director is just not good for business. :heehee: It is what it is~~:hugs:

[CallMeMeg]

I don't know about the FAA, but my (former) manager knows about Meg and I've had no problems. And I have a fairly high security clearance and work with law enforcement/dhs/etc sorts of people.

When I came to work dressed on H'ween, I asked the security woman (joking) if this will affect my clearance ~ she just said "no".

[JoanAz]

I have spent the last 50 of my 70 years in avation (Pilot 13,000+he & A&P mechanic) I have also spent 65 of those years as a CD. Though I never have let the two cross paths, Only once did i find anothet Pilot who dressed and we flew together for a lot of years on & off.
:love:

[Ze]

Am I the only one here who sees a functionality problem with trying to fly an aircraft in heels and a skirt? :doh: There's a reason GGs with such jobs dress "macho"; they have common sense.

If you applied to Hooters, I'm sure you'd have to wear their appropriate style of clothing then, too.

[Pythos]

Ze,

I find that response laced with sexism, and hoping it was a joke.

Of course one can fly an airplane in heels and skirt, just like one can drive a car wearing the same.

The reason Women dress "macho" is because they don't want to have to compete with men when it comes to being taken seriously (Somehow a nice skirt, heels, and blouse makes your IQ drop to some neanderthalls) I know this because when I ask my sister in law who is in another macho field, the stock market, why she wears jeans to work, and never wears a skirt, her answer is that it increases her confidence level, which I just think is mind numbingly stupid. But there we are, that is the world we all are responsible for perpetuating. I'm guilty too.

However, aside from one negative "getting outed" response, I find the general consensus encouraging

For those that asked. I am currently an unemployed A&P, as well as an out of work commercial pilot. I did traffic watch for a year, before the operation changed hands and the new owner hired only his friends.

[Ze]

Yes, I'm a highly sarcastic person. I'm also sensitive to the "why can girls wear whatever they want?" whine. Because it ain't true. You yourself just ironically explained that.

[divamissz]

Since you're both an A&P mechanic and have a commercial licence, you know the licencing requirements. As long as you meet them, you're fine. There's nothing as far as I know in the FAR's against it.

But yes, being CD will affect your ability to get a job in some companies. This is not an FAA issue, but a social one. I do know that some airlines (American for one) have more open LGBTQ policies than others. Some may treat CDing as "We don't care as long as you don't bring it to work," while others will show you the door if you're out.

But no, there's no legal reason the FAA would have a problem with you being a CD.

[Toni_Lynn]

Yes, I'm a highly sarcastic person. I'm also sensitive to the "why can girls wear whatever they want?" whine. Because it ain't true. You yourself just ironically explained that.

:yt:

Thanks Milo -- I was about to say that and you beat me to the punch.

*sigh*

I shall remain alert to that sorta stuff - -and if its one thing our community needs -- it's more lerts

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Lorileah]

I met a commercial pilot a few years ago who was transitioning and now she is still a captain with a major carrier. It didn't matter

[Pythos]

ze, you cannot argue that women do not have more latitude in their appearance.

Now I will acknowledge that women still present a "feminine" appearance, but they still wear clothing that was once strictly male, now is considered unisex. Women can choose to wear skirts, leggings, blue jeans, slacks, heck I have seen some in tuxedos at formal events. Women can openly have their hair styles how they wish, with little problems unless you encounter a true neanderthal male. This does not include women that pad their pants, bind their chests, and apply fake beards.

On the flip side, if I were to show up, in light makeup, nicely styled long hair, no falsies, even no tucking, quite obviously an elegantly dressed male, in a skirt and heels, I would run a VERY high risk of social ridicule.

In order to wear those styles men need to "pass" as feminine. That is really the only reason I would go out in full cd mode, opposed to my skirted male look to some places.

But this point has been argued to death Sadly in the end, we just end up chasing our tail instead of supporting one another, and striking down obvious prejudice based on one's clothing style, or personal presentation.

[Ze]

Women gained the right to wear pants because they fought for it. Unfortunately, society one-upped them by thereby making pants in a gendered format; men style vs women style. If GMs want to wear dresses without the purpose of passing, then you have to fight for it.

My earlier point, however, was about the sensibility of dress while flying an aircraft. Articles of clothing such as heels greatly inhibit the wearer; they create an unnatural posture, create an inability to properly run or quickly maneuver, and are painful after wearing them X amount of time. To want to wear something like that to do something as important as flying an aircraft seems very irresponsible.

And yes, it's sad when people rip each other apart over dumb things; like what our supporting GGs supposedly can and cannot wear. I don't think it's nice to make such unauthorized complaints right in front of people that are trying to give us understanding.

Yes, GGs wearing pants is different than an FtM trying to pass. Thank you for making that distinction. However, I unfortunately don't always pass as a male, and unless my hometown is nothing but neanderthal males (and females), then your theory of "women's" ease wearing distinctly male clothes is incorrect.

[Kieron Andrew]

This does not include women that pad their pants, bind their chests, and apply fake beards.


umm excuse me that would be TransMEN! yanno, anatomically female but their gender is male!, try being tolerant of others for a change

[Toni_Lynn]

I'm so sorry Kieron and Milo and all the other men here no matter where they are on their gender journey that you guys have to endure such insensitivity.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

All I can say about such nonsense is this .....

[Pythos]

Whoa whoa whoa.

First off.

I NEVER stated what GGs can and cannot wear.

I believe I have stated I dislike ALL forms of discrimination when it comes to presentation.

Second, you all can stop saying I am intolerant. We do not need to rip into one another.

Transmen, is an entirely new term to me. So I humbly apologize if I offended. I only stated what is done to achieve that appearance.

You will note I stated the things that genetically male people due to pass as female, and I did not refer to them as transwomen.

So please accept my apology. I will endevor to use these terms in the future.

Let me state it clearly so you may understand.

I do not feel the need to limit ANYONE'S expression. I do not know why others feel the need to limit mine. There will be times I will talk about the thug look being promoted, but that is simply because of the CLEAR connection of that look to violent actions. Last I checked Transmen Androgynous, and Transwomen were not very commonly associated with violence.

That being said. Ze, you questioned why I would want to wear footwear or clothing that you and many others find uncomfortable, and saying that wishing to do such while controlling an aircraft is irresponsible.
I will ask you this, since I have these features, why would you want to have itchy hair growing out of your face, and wear loose pants that drag along your legs as you walk? I have flown in leggings and find my movement entirely unencumbered, whereas when in jeans there is a slight amount of resistance in my movement. But, my asking that really is not fair. You like it, I cannot and will not deter you. However, I humbly request that you not apply your feelings of comfort to my liking certain items, and thinking I am irresponsible. To be a pilot you MUST be responsible. I would not wear something that would interfere with my controlling the machine. Would I wear heels to actually fly the plane? NO WAY. Would I wear flats, skirt and hose? YES, if I did not stand to lose my certificate to an overzealous FAA person citing me for mental questionably based off my attire.

I am not an enemy, please don't take me that way. I am learning.

[Ze]

It's official. Your OP completely eludes me because of the backflips.

As I always eventually do with backpeddlers, I'm done with this thread. Do us all a favor and become acquainted with the entire TG/CD community and its supporters before you start making assumptions. Because, as you're realizing, anybody outside of the MtF CD box will get pissed for being glossed over.

[sandra-leigh]

On the flip side, if I were to show up, in light makeup, nicely styled long hair, no falsies, even no tucking, quite obviously an elegantly dressed male, in a skirt and heels, I would run a VERY high risk of social ridicule.

I'm not sure what you include in "formal event". I've gone to the symphany in skirt and heels, including lining up for the mens washroom during the intermission; I didn't get any flak at all.


Ummm, let's see... it is true that when I went to the funeral of a local cross-dresser that I wore stealth clothes instead of anything obvious. That wasn't because I was afraid of social ridicule, though: we were politely asked not to go in obvious clothes because the departed person was widely known in several communities who would have been shocked to find out he CD'd and there was no point in upsetting people.

[Pythos]

This thread has been very enlightening.

Aside from one negative experience posted here about being outed. It would seem my fears are pretty much un-founded.

Now for myself to fight that fear.

[SusanCACD]

I really didn't mean to scare you. The FAA does not care about that sort of thing. The people in aviation do. Just be carefull, it really can ruin you.

Susan

[MsJanessa]

This thread has been very enlightening.

Aside from one negative experience posted here about being outed. It would seem my fears are pretty much un-founded.

Now for myself to fight that fear.

And if you are looking for what to wear as you pilot your jet, let Me suggested a tight leather jump suit, with matching boots and flying gauntlets. sort of a cross between Dianna Rigg in the Avengers and a WW1 flying ace--lol

[corynn]

ooo ooo I know how about the president wearing heels and long nails when he decides to prees a button that realeses nukes

COME ON PEOPLE IT'S JUST CLOTHES NOT AND INTERFERENCE OF ONES DUTIES ON A JOB

IF ALL OF US JUST STOPPED :Angry3::Angry3::Angry3::Angry3: ARGUING ABOUT STUPID PETTY CRAP AND GREW UP THAT WOULD BE AMAZING

ZE :YOUR OPINIONS ARE YOURS WEATHER YOU CHOOSE TO SHARE THEM OR NOT

PYTHOS: YOUR OPINIONS ARE ALSO YOURS WEATHER YOU CHOOSE TO SHARE THEM OR NOT

BUT LETS BE ADULTS ABOUT IT

LIKE I HAD SAID BEFORE IN ANOTHER POST

IF WE ALL START JUDGING EACH OTHER WE'RE NO BETTER THAN THE PEOPLE THAT JUDGE US FOR CROSSDRESSING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!AND YES THAT GOES BOTH WAYS MTF OR FTM,TS,TG,TV,CD,INTERSEXED IT DOESNT MATTER AS HUMANS WE SHOULD START BEING THERE FOR ONE ANOTHER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:hugs::hugs:

[Mikaela]

I still think that if it is an FAA question, just call the local FSDO anonymously and ask.
And I think Ercoupes are rudderless, so you can wear heels with them :D

[StephaniAnn]

Yes, I'm a highly sarcastic person. I'm also sensitive to the "why can girls wear whatever they want?" whine. Because it ain't true.
You yourself just ironically explained that.

*sort of* GGs can still technically get away with it (might hurt their career or whatever but they won't be in fear of their jobs or their lives over dressing girly at work) ;)

Bottom line is that everybody has problems. Different sets of them, perhaps but we all carry our own crosses in this life.

[StephaniAnn]

ooo ooo I know how about the president wearing heels and long nails when he decides to prees a button that realeses nukes

COME ON PEOPLE IT'S JUST CLOTHES NOT AND INTERFERENCE OF ONES DUTIES ON A JOB

IF ALL OF US JUST STOPPED :Angry3::Angry3::Angry3::Angry3: ARGUING ABOUT STUPID PETTY CRAP AND GREW UP THAT WOULD BE AMAZING

ZE :YOUR OPINIONS ARE YOURS WEATHER YOU CHOOSE TO SHARE THEM OR NOT

PYTHOS: YOUR OPINIONS ARE ALSO YOURS WEATHER YOU CHOOSE TO SHARE THEM OR NOT

BUT LETS BE ADULTS ABOUT IT

LIKE I HAD SAID BEFORE IN ANOTHER POST

IF WE ALL START JUDGING EACH OTHER WE'RE NO BETTER THAN THE PEOPLE THAT JUDGE US FOR CROSSDRESSING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!AND YES THAT GOES BOTH WAYS MTF OR FTM,TS,TG,TV,CD,INTERSEXED IT DOESNT MATTER AS HUMANS WE SHOULD START BEING THERE FOR ONE ANOTHER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:hugs::hugs:




Excellent point. Society's (some of it) misconceptions/lack of acceptance should not cause us to turn on one another.

[StephaniAnn]

Oh, I just saw this one.
Pythos, I gotta' be fair to Ze. :) Already yanked Ze's chain a bit, now it's your turn.

Women have been wearing pants in India (Salwar Kameez) and in the middle east for several centuries.
I think the Romans wore skirts (certainly Scots do), tons of other civilizations "cross dress" by our "modern" (temporal) societal standards.

You're arguing chicken or the egg here. ;) God only knows which gender wore which item of clothing first. Apparently, some believe we were all naked in the beginning. :D

I would argue that many less-than-uber macho FtM-ers get the stares as much as the less-than-ultra feminine MtF-ers.
Always best to step into another's shoes (see how the other half lives) when whipping out, er, comparing battle scars. :)

By the way, I'm new here, nice to meet you, both of you. Happy to rattle anyone's cage, solicited or otherwise. :D



ze, you cannot argue that women do not have more latitude in their appearance.

Now I will acknowledge that women still present a "feminine" appearance, but they still wear clothing that was once strictly male, now is considered unisex. Women can choose to wear skirts, leggings, blue jeans, slacks, heck I have seen some in tuxedos at formal events. Women can openly have their hair styles how they wish, with little problems unless you encounter a true neanderthal male. This does not include women that pad their pants, bind their chests, and apply fake beards.

On the flip side, if I were to show up, in light makeup, nicely styled long hair, no falsies, even no tucking, quite obviously an elegantly dressed male, in a skirt and heels, I would run a VERY high risk of social ridicule.

In order to wear those styles men need to "pass" as feminine. That is really the only reason I would go out in full cd mode, opposed to my skirted male look to some places.

But this point has been argued to death Sadly in the end, we just end up chasing our tail instead of supporting one another, and striking down obvious prejudice based on one's clothing style, or personal presentation.