A spouses insight

[Katesback]

Hi there everyone. I recently had a conversation with a spouse of someone that I met at the beginning of transition and now has had all the surgeries and the couple is no longer toghether.

The conversation reminded me of something that ALL (me included) of us go through. I guess the best term might be the narsisistic stage. After talking to this person I talked with Danella about the narsisistic aspect of TS people and she laughed and said that I myself still exhibit it to some degree. Perhaps we dont escape it after all. Below is the part of the email that illustrates the feelings of a spouse of a TS girl. I thought I would share this.

Hi Katie!

I think of you often. How are you doing? I am a bit depressed. Sort of comming down from my complete (emotional + everything else) breakup from (name deleted). I just can't "raise" a teenage girl with a credit card who cannot empathize with me for even a minute. So, I've been fighting depression with therapy, reading, keeping busy, planning new fun stuff for myself, and so on.


Intrim conversation not posted.

Hi Katie,

Yes, you sure did try to warn me. And I know you made what I thought were helpful suggestions to (name deleted). She did not take me into account in just about anything from the very beginning (of transition). Like telling me she just couldn't hold it in any longer (on an important day of MY life).

You know what would have helped me just a little bit? (Not suggesting you did anything wrong....just thinking about this for future sig others)...making me really look at the definition of narcissistic. I thought when my therapist and others started saying "narcissistic" that it meant "look at me! look at me!" That part I really tried to get with. Buying her makeup, clothing suggestions, and so on.

What I didn't get, as I said in the last e-mail, was that a narcissistic person does not take into account ANY one else's feelings, which is why (name deleted) could not heed your warnings (and the warnings of MANY MANY others) to slow down for my sake.

Also I did not know that narcissistic people are just fine with you as long as you go along with almost everything being their way.

The one or two times that (name deleted) did make concessions to me were only after 1) her mentor insisting that she do so or 2) I had an hysterical screaming fit (coming out too soon at work, not in accordance with the agreed-upon plan.)

Oh well. It is what it is, but I am in so much pain.
I loved the guy. We'll never know if I could have made the transition with her. She was unable to consider me.

Yeah, I don't "blame" her. I just want the next generation to get it, so that
a) the transchild will have the opportunity to have the necessary growing up developmental experiences (a normal childhood, a normal adolescence)
b) people like me will not be "taken hostage" as it were.

I saw your roller derby and Thailand pics on Flickr. Cute.

Most of all, I AM S00000000000000 happy for you that you have a girlfriend!

[Beth-Lock]

Why do some in transition become narcisistic?
Stepping back, there may be a reason that people sometimes become narcisistic when there is a change in their lives, not just in gender transition. Maybe they have been taken too much for granted, for example, in giving all too much in a marriage, beyond what they can sustain. It may be a wife, left in the lurch by their spouse, who decides after marriage break-up to buy nice clothes and take care of their appearance, even if they end up copying teenage dress a little two much. I have seen both cases among women.

So when a man feels that his needs have not been met for a long time, for example, in a marriage in which playing the male role to the hilt, and avoiding 'effeminacy' is both a strain and a heavy sacrifice, the reaction may indeed be narcisism. Other men may not transition, but just start to buy a lot of expensive boy toys, and leave the wife with fraying furniture and furnishing, which is of course selfish of him.
I think narcisism originates in a reaction, in many of these cases, in which unselfishness is pushed beyond the point it can be endured, and the pendulum then swings too far the other way. If my theory is right, it points to possible ways of both preventing it and dealing with it, if it happens. Of course that does not mean the situation is curable or can be made painless.
"It is not to laugh and it is not to cry. It is to understand." (Spinoza)

[Katesback]

Interesting words.

I have lived by what I call the #1 rule of transition (willing to put everything on the line). This can easily be considered narsisistic.

Thankfully I am far along in the process of transition and these days I have a great deal of ability to actually listen to people and help them. Of course there are times when the narsisitic attitude does come back.

I was talking to a client and she asked me the other day why I rarely offer advice to trans people. I smiled and said that they would not hear me. Of course she didnt get what I said and I casually changed the subject.

[kellycan27]

I would say that in my case I would have to admit that yes, I am a bit narsissistic. How can we not be to a certain extent if we plan on achieving our goal. I def had an "it's all about me" attitude, mainly because it was.....all about me. It is more out of survival than vanity or love of self. I pretty much felt that it was me against the world and come hell or high water this is what I needed to do.
As far as relationships go... well my relationship as I can't speak for anyone else. When I met my SO it ( my transition) was pretty much a done deal save for that final operation. I had been living full time for about 6.5 years and actually transitioning physically for around 3. He knew up front where I was headed with this thing, so he pretty much had to decide for himself if this was something he could live with. It wasn't as if we were together and I suddenly popped out of the closet and said..surprise! I want to be a woman.
He didn't have to "grow up" with me while I stumbled along. The things he had to deal with were basically his internal turmoil. My attitude was.. You are a man and I am a woman.....Being a transsexual was no longer much of an issue for me. I was comfortable and established living as a woman. There were no real "consessions" or boundries in as much as things I had to do so that he was comfortable with the situation. I don't know it that makes sense, but what I guess that I am trying to say is that he really didn't have to deal with seeing me transition, he just had to deal with whether or not he could live with the end result. It's not been all lollipops and roses.. there were a couple of things that we had to work through..one a biggy.. (bet you can't guess what that one was) lol, but we worked it out.:2c:

Kelly

[Melissa A.]

Transition is not a tiny little thing. It ain't a tummy tuck. You are changing your outward identity. It's huge for the person transitioning, and equally huge, in other ways, for the people in that person's life. It affects and changes everybody involved, permanantly. Are there selfish ways to transition? Hell, of course there are. There are selfish, irresponsible ways we could do everything. People do. And I'm sure that a fair share of trans folks do, as well. I'm also sure that alot of, especially married trans people are accused of being selfish by their less than enthusiastic partners and families, and would be no matter how they handled it.

Why do we transition? I know this is elementary, especially for this audience, but bear with me... Because we will die if we don't. Or at the very least, lead a miserable existence. I know that changing gears mid life, or mid-marriage is a huge deal for everyone, and the reasons this stuff happens has been recounted here by many, so I won't. Suffice to say we don't do this for fun and laughs.

Some people try very hard to do things correctly. Some try less hard. Some people are sensitive, and some are oblivious. Transsexuals are as diverse as everyone else.

But our condition is real, and we didn't invent it, or ask for it. And until relatively recently, our culture made it next to impossible to deal with effectively without paying a steep, steep price. In many places, and with many people and families, this is still true.

I strongly object to the use of, and the idea that the term narcisism is somehow a "given" component of transsexualism.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Traci Elizabeth]

I defy ANYONE to say that at some point(s) in their life under some situation(s), they did not act in a narcissistic way.

Some narcissism if not carried to the clinical definition is healthy for self-esteem.

What's that old saying, if you can't love yourself, how can you expect to love anyone else.

There is also the dynamics of synergy of couples, and/or parent-child which creates in and of itself narcissistic behaviors.

In the clinical definition:

"A person with narcissistic personality disorder:
• Reacts to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation
• Takes advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals
• Has feelings of self-importance
• Exaggerates achievements and talents
• Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love
• Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
• Requires constant attention and admiration
• Disregards the feelings of others, lacks empathy
• Has obsessive self-interest
• Pursues mainly selfish goals"

Which spouse or parent would not exhibit at least some combination of these behaviors to PROTECT, SECURE, PROMOTE, or GROW their spouse or child?

In the scheme of life, all I can say is "Viva La Narcissism!"

[Melissa A.]

Uh, sorry. I don't think of narcisism as a good thing. Not anytime, really. That could be why it has clinical definitions. Unlike more benign terms, and I would say, more common behaviors, like "Acting in one's self-interest", loyalty, protectiveness(even over-protectiveness), or good ol' fashioned occasional selfishness. We might be simply playing a silly game of semantics here, but it's hard for me to think of that word in a good light-hardly ever.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Frances]

Why do we transition? [...] Because we will die if we don't.

Transition is no more narcissistic or selfish than cancer in my opinion.

It disrupts the lives of others, but they are not the ones dealing with transsexuality. There needs to be a paradigm shift where being transsexual becomes as unquestionnable as being cis-gendered. Nobody will question someone's need for chemo or discuss how it will affect their lives. There will always be collateral damage as long as our gender identity is questionnable and classified as a curable mental disorder.

[Melissa A.]

:iagree:

[TinaMc]

Uh, sorry. I don't think of narcisism as a good thing. Not anytime, really. That could be why it has clinical definitions. Unlike more benign terms, and I would say, more common behaviors, like "Acting in one's self-interest", loyalty, protectiveness(even over-protectiveness), or good ol' fashioned occasional selfishness. We might be simply playing a silly game of semantics here, but it's hard for me to think of that word in a good light-hardly ever.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

I agree. Narcissism is essentially a lack of empathy. There's nothing good about that.

[Karen564]

I strongly object to the use of, and the idea that the term narcissist is somehow a "given" component of transsexualism.


I agree...only because my personality simply won't allow me to be a narcistic...

I know what narcissism is & have seen it on this site many times over...
But since I have children, it makes it very hard to selfish..and I've always put their needs & concerns in front of the operations I would liked to have done years ago.

I transitioned so I wouldn't leave them with only one parent to care for them, because there's absolutely no way I could of existed any longer living the big lie as a male anymore......it was do or die......and just cant see that as narcissism.

I have been going to school in pursuit of a better career not only to support my life, but also make my children's lives better since they will need help paying for college & other things..

So for me, my transition always took a backseat & had to sacrifice the things I wanted very much so I can continue to support my children the best I can, not what I did in order to survive..
But that's me...and doesn't mean I'm better or worse than anyone else, because I know we are all a very diverse group in here..but have a common goal..

What I'm saying Kate, I'm not the usual TS your so used to seeing in your clinic...or anywhere else for that matter..

[Katesback]

Sure there are always exceptions. I have a feeling you somehow came to an inner peace that I see with the post-op girls. Think it has something to do with feeling like the journey is over and theres nothing left to proove. Of course the fact is that after SRS you start a whole new transition that last the rest of your life. Sometimes this is even harder than the pre-op transition.



I agree...only because my personality simply won't allow me to be a narcistic...

I know what narcissism is & have seen it on this site many times over...
But since I have children, it makes it very hard to selfish..and I've always put their needs & concerns in front of the operations I would liked to have done years ago.

I transitioned so I wouldn't leave them with only one parent to care for them, because there's absolutely no way I could of existed any longer living the big lie as a male anymore......it was do or die......and just cant see that as narcissism.

I have been going to school in pursuit of a better career not only to support my life, but also make my children's lives better since they will need help paying for college & other things..

So for me, my transition always took a backseat & had to sacrifice the things I wanted very much so I can continue to support my children the best I can, not what I did in order to survive..
But that's me...and doesn't mean I'm better or worse than anyone else, because I know we are all a very diverse group in here..but have a common goal..

What I'm saying Kate, I'm not the usual TS your so used to seeing in your clinic...or anywhere else for that matter..

[Melissa A.]

Wondering, Exceptions to what?

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Karen564]

Yes, it's true, I have come a long way & finally happy for once in my life.....and feel like I've transitioned many times over now in more ways than one...so yeah, my soul is at peace with itself.
Life as a whole is one big transition, and always throwing use some curve balls now & then....but such is life....lol

:hugs:

[Traci Elizabeth]

Uh, sorry. I don't think of narcisism as a good thing. Not anytime, really. That could be why it has clinical definitions. Unlike more benign terms, and I would say, more common behaviors, like "Acting in one's self-interest", loyalty, protectiveness(even over-protectiveness), or good ol' fashioned occasional selfishness. We might be simply playing a silly game of semantics here, but it's hard for me to think of that word in a good light-hardly ever.

Hugs,

Melissa:)


Yes, I think we are talking semantics. I was also trying to discuss "degree." I do not think that if someone fits into the clinical definition, that is a "good" thing.

But I do believe that everyone shows some signs of narcissism to some degree at different times.

There are no human saints...we all have weaknesses that could fit into this realm.

Even Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi had weak moments in his life where he showed one or more characteristics of narcissism some degree.

[Ze]

Transition is no more narcissistic or selfish than cancer in my opinion.

It disrupts the lives of others, but they are not the ones dealing with transsexuality. There needs to be a paradigm shift where being transsexual becomes as unquestionnable as being cis-gendered. Nobody will question someone's need for chemo or discuss how it will affect their lives. There will always be collateral damage as long as our gender identity is questionnable and classified as a curable mental disorder.

You beat me to it. :) Awesome post.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Transition is no more narcissistic or selfish than cancer in my opinion.

It disrupts the lives of others, but they are not the ones dealing with transsexuality. There needs to be a paradigm shift where being transsexual becomes as unquestionnable as being cis-gendered. Nobody will question someone's need for chemo or discuss how it will affect their lives. There will always be collateral damage as long as our gender identity is questionnable and classified as a curable mental disorder.

that's a great comment...

I can't wait for that day...until then, we are faced with the situation Kate highlights in the OP...we get blamed, we get the blowback, and sometimes
we just have to deal with all that bs as a cost of transition and we just pay

for some of us, i think we tend to pay that cost too easily.

[Katesback]

I think the most important thing is that we as TS people at some point need to turn off the Narsisistic attributes. I realize that it often happens after a good amout of time into transition but we do need to turn it off.

Katie

[Frances]

My point is that we are not narcissistic.

[ReineD]

It is not unhealthy to be narcissistic (to a point). Everyone is, especially as Frances mentioned above, when a person is sick or needs to take care of their own needs. Establishing boundaries might seem narcissistic to some, but it is not. But people can go overboard with it to the point where it is pathological too. Having an inability to consider loved ones or their feelings is unhealthy IMO. At the same time, loved ones need to also be willing to stretch. It is a delicate balance. My point is there are varying degrees of narcissism just as with everything else.

In the example cited in the first post, it seems to me the TS didn't love her partner enough to slow down in order to keep her wife on board. It's that simple. I'm glad the wife moved on.

[Traci Elizabeth]

It is not unhealthy to be narcissistic (to a point). Everyone is, especially as Frances mentioned above, when a person is sick or needs to take care of their own needs. Establishing boundaries might seem narcissistic to some, but it is not. But people can go overboard with it to the point where it is pathological too. Having an inability to consider loved ones or their feelings is unhealthy IMO. At the same time, loved ones need to also be willing to stretch. It is a delicate balance. My point is there are varying degrees of narcissism just as with everything else.

In the example cited in the first post, it seems to me the TS didn't love her partner enough to slow down in order to keep her wife on board. It's that simple. I'm glad the wife moved on.

Finally, SOMEONE agreed with me! :cheer:

[AKAMichelle]

In the example cited in the first post, it seems to me the TS didn't love her partner enough to slow down in order to keep her wife on board. It's that simple. I'm glad the wife moved on.

You took the words out of my mouth. I think we are selfish at times, but it takes a lot to put someone above ourselves. If you are going to transition then the question is simple. Do you love your spouse enough to move at a pace she is comfortable with? If you are unwilling or unable to wait then the marriage is over.

[Melissa A.]

I think the most important thing is that we as TS people at some point need to turn off the Narsisistic attributes. I realize that it often happens after a good amout of time into transition but we do need to turn it off.

Katie

That's a generalization, and an incorrect one. It's also one other thing: an opinion, without any concrete evidence to which you are entitled. However, you continue to repeat it and ignore me and another when we flat out tell you that's completely false, rather than discuss the merits, or lack thereof, of your opinion. I think that needs to be pointed out, as you continue to behave as if your opinion is an agreed upon foregone conclusion. It isn't.

Hugs,

Melissa:)