Religion v's Transgender

[~Tammy~]

Something that doesn't seem to have been touched upon here is the subject of religion.
Now I'm a complete atheist (non-religious) but I imagine there are trangendered people from all religions across the globe.
We have heard religious people say that if God wanted men to be gay he would have created Adam & Steve instead of Adam & Eve and that to be gay, in the eyes of God, is blasphemous.
Being a non-believer I personally don't believe in Adam & Eve, Steve or Bob being the first to walk the Earth. But believe we came from the primordeal ooze (well actually from interstellar dust, but that's another story!)
But as a person who is open to any opinions and beliefs I have no reservations to others and accept there are people who happily live there lives based on and devoted to, the existence of a God.
However, I'm not looking to start a discussion on religion and sexuality, but rather religion and trangenderism.

What do you think Gods view would be of people born in the form of one sex or another, and then dressing/acting as the opposite sex?
Is this a design feature of humanity or another blasphemous act?
What about the people who firmly believe they are trapped in the wrong sex's body? Is this an evil act of God? For what reason?

I was also wondering what percentage would we be looking at in a comparison of religious v non-religious TG's?

Although we may be a little bias when it comes to these views, I wonder what opinions the God faring non-TG community (IE, the rest of the religious world) have, when they look at us?

~Tammy~

[Marda]

Hi Tgirls

Bare with me 4 jis' a moment plz ... B4 you get started here ...

1) How far is "Infinity"?
2) How long is "Eternity"?
3) Is this site covered by "Insurance Insurance"?

Tnx ... gotta run ... the fish are bitin' an' I got a mouthful o' chubbie & juicee worms for 'em ...

ttfn / Marda

[Amelie]

I was just prepared to go on a religous rampage, then I read Erica's post, and calmed down. She seems to nail it, good.
The only comment I would like to make is: to me religion is like a menu in a restraunt, people only pick the parts they want. I keep being told by people the bible says it's wrong to be gay. That's a main theme to the religous right. But in their same bible it says: It is easier for a camel to go thru an eye of a needle, than a rich man to enter his kingdom. Yet I have heard not one word from the religous right or any church condeming the rich, telling the rich they will go to hell. Because christians only choose what they want from the bible.

Amelie

[Rachel_740]

Hi Girls,

Having just read your posrtings here, just let me get on my soapbox for a moment. ALL religions (as far as I know) preach love thy neighbour. Can anyone tell me then, why is it that nearly all conflict/war in the world is religion based? :rolleyes:

And another incident that is a lot closer to home for me. Some years ago (probably about 20/25) my bro was homeless and at Christmas he decided he would go to the local church (C of E) to celebrate at midnight mass. He got as far as the door of the church, but was not allowed in. Why? Simply because of the way he looked - he was not considered presentable to enter a church. He had dirty clothes on, which included an old, tatty, motorcycle jacket :mad:

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Hi Tgirls

Bare with me 4 jis' a moment plz ... B4 you get started here ...

1) How far is "Infinity"?
2) How long is "Eternity"?
3) Is this site covered by "Insurance Insurance"?

Tnx ... gotta run ... the fish are bitin' an' I got a mouthful o' chubbie & juicee worms for 'em ...

ttfn / Marda

First off, grrl, we have to get you a manager and a contract! You are too ****ing funny for your own knickers. Get outta town, k?
*is becoming a Marda fan*

Anyhow, without having read all replies let me say this. My undergrad in college was comparative religion. I could talk for hours on the subject but I'm going to spare you all and just say this. RELIGION IS AN INVENTION OF HUMAN KIND, k? Not some other being. Soooo, this being said, no one has corner on truth (whatever the hell that is and if absolute truth exists, whole 'nuther philosophical discussion) and human kind doesn't have just one set of tennants to live by. I believe if Darwin were here today, he'd be at a gay pride rally next to Jesus.

:)

That is all for today.
Class dismissed.

[ChristineRenee]

I have discovered over the years that some of the most religious people are also some of the least tolerant and most biased that you will ever meet. Now, I had a religious upbringing, and believe in a Supreme Being, or God if you will, but I certainly don't consider myself a religious zealot by any means.

Most of the wars that have occurred on this planet have been fought in the name of religion. I guess my overall feeling about it tends to coincide with that of the comedian George Carlin...who also had a very religious upbringing as an Irish catholic. I don't remember his exact words but his thoughts went something like this...Religion is like a lift in your shoe. If it makes you feel better about yourself...great! Just don't try to force me to wear lifts...and while you are at it...don't go around to third world countries and try to nail lifts to the natives feet either!

Thus endeth the sermon!


xoxoxoxo,

Christine

[Priss]

This is the only bible verse that I know of, that even (and just barely) touches the subject...

Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.

Whenever you ask the question of what does religon have to say about the subject, Christians atleast, run to their bible and return with this verse. I can not verify, however it has been said that the translation of this verse was incomplete. The women's part had to do with attaining access to the temple and religous secrets, while the male portion had something to do with attaining access to the harem...

I was raised to believe in a God. At one point, and besides curiosity I probably did it for a girl..., converted to Catholicism. I now consider myself a recovering catholic. Any way, when I told this girl what it was that was truly in my heart and revealed my inner child to her, (and at this time we were really no more than very good friends), she almost immediately ran to her bible and came back to me with this verse. She also a few days later stated to me that she could no longer even be my friend. Although I have spoken to her a few times, and am still close to the rest of her family, I have not seen her in 14yrs. I suppose there could have been at the time and perhaps still is in her mind, the idea that we are and or were more than just friends.

Before I made that conversion to Catholicism, I pretty much had my own relationship with God. Today Iam back to that, however my beliefs are now quite a bit different. Mostly because after she said that to me, I took my entire belief system and threw it out the window. I've rebuilt it since then. What was good and important to me, stayed, but there was not really much that returned. My belief today is actually rather simple. It is this...

We are God, here on Earth, having a human experience. We are doing this, in order to understand the nature of ourself.

To me that says that it doesn't matter if you're gay or straight, black, white, Baptist or Islamic radicalist. We are all part of the same thing, the same essence, the same dust. We are all one! This is why that the destion we all arrive at doesn't matter, but the journey that counts...

Well, these are just my beliefs and ramblings. You must discover your own. Whether they be of organized religon, or picked up from me or someone else. For myself however, I just can't put any faith in a book that has been translated, mistranslated, manipulated and used to control the masses. Nor could I put my faith in anyone or a God that tries to tell me that the very essence of what Iam is an abomination...

[Julie]

I heard a sound bite from a movie starring Martin Sheen as a president or some high ranking official. An assistant comes to him saying the Bible tells us homosexuality is an abberation and against God's will. Martin Sheen then goes on a rant of sorts where he quotes passages in the Bible such as anyone working on the Sabbath shall be put to death and other similar passages that no rational human being today would ever take seriously.

The obvious reason was to point out the Bible is not something to take piecemeal or out of context. It is something that you must know cover to cover before you start living by it. Everyone has their views and they are entitled to them. It's only when those views impinge on the rights of others do we have a problem.

Respect for one another is more important than a passage from the Bible. Finding good in one another is more important than focusing on their flaws. Looking inside yourself and recognizing your own flaws is more important than trying to change others to fit your ideals. Accepting others for who they are is the key to us all getting along.

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Accepting others for who they are is the key to us all getting along.[/QUOTE]


Can I get an amen sisters?!

[Priss]

Accepting others for who they are is the key to us all getting along.
Can I get an amen sisters?!Ok... Amen... Just how many men is that though? I mean, if it were singular, it would just be a man. But the men part of it sounds like there should be more than that...:rolleyes:

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Bless your heart Samantha......but your quote......

God makes gay animals. I have seen dogs both male and female that were gay. I am sure there are other animals that way. If God was against it, why would he allow it in the animal kingdom?

Only begs the question. Which zoos are you hanging out at?

[Miss Sherry]

As far as religion goes, read "Illusions:the adventures of a reluctant messiah" by Richard Bach and you've got me pegged.

Isn't it amazing how eager so many people are to tell you that you're going to hell ... like they know. If you put all the religions together, everyone is going to hell (women just for being born). Silly and absurd, to say the least; unfortunately, also very dangerous, for the very same people who tell you you're going to hell are just as eager to help you on your journey.

What are all the religions so afraid of? If they're right, they have nothing to worry about ... so why are they all so worried? How can a non-believer contaminate the truth? Isn't the truth the only absolute?

How others perceive my cross-dressing/transgender in a religious sense is none of my concern, unless they also want to speed me along the way. My biggest concern is from in-bred, brain-dead phobics who think anyone different, either by color, race, or clothing, is open for confrontation and easy game.

Sherry :)

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Quote: everyone is going to hell (women just for being born).

Excuse me but we resemble that remark! And, as far as I know, this is only in Christianity, sweety.

Quote: What are all the religions so afraid of?

Ummm, we're all afraid cuz the truth is NO ONE ****ING KNOWS!

Quote: Isn't the truth the only absolute?

We could have this discussion (see me posty above) but then again you're reading Richard Bach. Not exactly a scholarly type person. No'ffense.

Quote: unless they also want to speed me along the way

Where are we speeding to exactly?

There, there Miss Sherry; you're loved by those here. The Church of the Queens!

*goes and sits back on throne*

[Stelli]

I am not an atheist. I truely believe in God. But there is no way to prove Gods existance because he lives inside you and proves himself each day to you (the believer.)

Not atheist but shurely agnostic.

[Stelli]

Old wise man have said unto him: Thou shalt not discuss religion and politics! (Otherwise many evil will come unto face of earth and many will die in confontation of their ideals).

Him born between traditional ortodox christian father and "progressive" pragmatical comunist mother obiously have choosen to study Zen in order to find peace of soul among thorn ideas of everyday reality. But Stelli - the long tongue (this to be added to list of stereotypical treats) - could not resist to dissect the idea of mind bogling human race needs of wholing the whole.

We live our life. And to resolve issues we use our knowledge. And that's fine while knowledge lasts. But then there is end of the path of knowledge and knowledge is questioned for inventing a new paths for new ideas or new questions that do not have answers. Yet there is emptiness in it (knowledge). Thus it goes to its roots to rediscover itself. And in its roots it finds belief. Because there is no other base for knowledge than simply believing something that is there without need of explanation. Because if it needs an explanation then it is knowledge. With multiple reiterations it wants to organize its base for any problem that may arise and calls it religion to be omnipotent base for any kind of unknown knowledge.

And here we are, discussing what they believe, what they have believed, and what they will believe. And they know that there is no solution in functions that have undefined breaks with tendencies to infinities and that axioms are non-disputable obviousnesses. Yet they stubbornly try to find explanation of unexplanable. Sometimes it works, but who cares about transparent glass. They want to find solution that is among light and darkness. And solution is there who want to see it although it is unseenable. Like zen's clap sound of one hand.

Only needy are greedy, only lost are believers, only stupid think they are smart. I hope I will never belong to any. I just resist to be classified, I resist to be syntetized, I just want to live while I can. I am letting it pass through me like sun ray through the thin air and enjoy its ride through me. On the question about their view on conflict between analytic west vs syntetic east representative of the african tribe simply and proudly have said: "white man made it too complicated, it is important to run away from lions". I believe him. Do you?

[Stelli]

Quote: Isn't the truth the only absolute?

We could have this discussion (see me posty above) but then again you're reading Richard Bach. Not exactly a scholarly type person. No'ffense.


Absolute truths have been successfully challenged by fuzzy logic.
On paradox side the negation of truth is also truth.

Mybe I should buy white leather handbag but I'd love it fuzzily cuddly.

[Stelli]

As far as religion goes, read "Illusions:the adventures of a reluctant messiah" by Richard Bach and you've got me pegged.

Excellent read! One of favorites. Really relaxing one.

[Stelli]

Hi Tgirls

Bare with me 4 jis' a moment plz ... B4 you get started here ...

1) How far is "Infinity"?
2) How long is "Eternity"?
3) Is this site covered by "Insurance Insurance"?

Tnx ... gotta run ... the fish are bitin' an' I got a mouthful o' chubbie & juicee worms for 'em ...

ttfn / Marda

1) How far is "Infinity"?
Infinite.

2) How long is "Eternity"?
Infinite.

3) Is this site covered by "Insurance Insurance"?
For reference on Insured insurance see entry: "compound interest on interest on taxed tax".

Love/Stelli

[Marda]

~
"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth - Gog and Magog - to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But the fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
* Revelation 20: 7-10 *
~
( sshhhhhh ... it'll b r secret )
Hs / Marda

[eleventhdr]

Everone who is anyone knows that all life began due to an interference during the Foruth Doctors rein when he went back 400,000 years and prevented that alien ship from blowing up or maybe it did bllow up thus and that is when the soup began all life!.

[Tristen Cox]

Everone who is anyone knows that all life began due to an interference during the Foruth Doctors rein when he went back 400,000 years and prevented that alien ship from blowing up or maybe it did bllow up thus and that is when the soup began all life!.
Caught that. Good point. After all, if that had not happened we would never have had a Mona Lisa!

(**all hale the Eleventh Doctor!**)

[eleventhdr]

Thank's but I am just The Humble Doctor doing the best he can throughout all of time and space!. SO voooorrrrrpppppp vooooorrrrrppppppp To you!.

[Miss Sherry]

Everone who is anyone knows that all life began due to an interference during the Foruth Doctors rein when he went back 400,000 years and prevented that alien ship from blowing up or maybe it did bllow up thus and that is when the soup began all life!.
"... all life began due to an interference during the Foruth (sic) Doctors (sic) rein (sic) when he went back 400,000 years and prevented that alien ship from blowing up ..."

All life? Where did the alien come from? If man is made in the image of God, does God have a belly button? Why? If a tree falls in Brazil, and it snows in Los Angeles, will it rain in Indianapolis? Oh, my! I think my pantyhose is falling!

What was the topic of this thread?

Sherry :)

PS Please ... all in fun!!

[crispy]

Marda

do you dress when you dangle the worms ?

............... just being facetious................ !!

[Marda]

Hey There Crispy,
~
I Dress *Especially* When I Dangle ...
A TGirl Can *Never* B 2 Ready ...
~
Love / Marda

[crispy]

just take care where you do it.
there's sharks out there.

[Chandra Marie]

Everone who is anyone knows that all life began due to an interference during the Foruth Doctors rein when he went back 400,000 years and prevented that alien ship from blowing up or maybe it did bllow up thus and that is when the soup began all life!.

I was under the impresion that the Goa'uld were god's:D

[eleventhdr]

well when i said all life I meant all life on this plaent. Elsewhere it very probaly was quite different And besides the writers of Doctor who come from there own time and space witness since they can come up witht the whole concept of the Doctor and scifi to begin with ya know. Fantastic that's what makes it so unquine!.

[Marda]

~ Quote Crispy
"08-17-2004 03:16 AM
crispy
just take care where you do it.
there's sharks out there."
***
~
Hey There Crispy,
The *Bad* news is ...
There's Sharks in *Here* too !!!
"C'est la Vie" !!! "C'est L'Amour" !!! "C'est La Guerre !!!
~
Love / Marda

[Sheanna]

Something that doesn't seem to have been touched upon here is the subject of religion.
Now I'm a complete atheist (non-religious) but I imagine there are trangendered people from all religions across the globe.
We have heard religious people say that if God wanted men to be gay he would have created Adam & Steve instead of Adam & Eve and that to be gay, in the eyes of God, is blasphemous.
Being a non-believer I personally don't believe in Adam & Eve, Steve or Bob being the first to walk the Earth. But believe we came from the primordeal ooze (well actually from interstellar dust, but that's another story!)
But as a person who is open to any opinions and beliefs I have no reservations to others and accept there are people who happily live there lives based on and devoted to, the existence of a God.
However, I'm not looking to start a discussion on religion and sexuality, but rather religion and trangenderism.

What do you think Gods view would be of people born in the form of one sex or another, and then dressing/acting as the opposite sex?
Is this a design feature of humanity or another blasphemous act?
What about the people who firmly believe they are trapped in the wrong sex's body? Is this an evil act of God? For what reason?

I was also wondering what percentage would we be looking at in a comparison of religious v non-religious TG's?

Although we may be a little bias when it comes to these views, I wonder what opinions the God faring non-TG community (IE, the rest of the religious world) have, when they look at us?

~Tammy~

For forty-eight years, this crossdressing desire of mine has been seemingly a curse because I know that it's not normal for a male to want to dress like a member of the opposite sex. Having been brought up Catholic, though I no longer am (nor am I 'religious'), I have often wondered why God would allow these feelings to be a part of a man's life. In my search for some kind of answers, I discovered the oldest concept/doctrine known to man: reincarnation. If we have indeed lived previous lifetimes, and perhaps some of them as a member of the opposite sex, then would not that be a logical reason for having deep seated emotional ties to having been of the opposite sex? The question now for me is: will I screw things up even more if I continue to answer my crossdressing needs and desires (which are so strong that when I try and deny myself due to guilt, I get this wrenching feeling in my gut until I give in), or does denial help in my 'soul developement'? Has anyone else out there given this idea any thought?

Just Curious....
Sheanna

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Oh boy! You grrls are just begging for me to get in more on this discussion, aren't you? lol Well, besides having majored in comparative religion I am a licensed psychotherapist. So, Sheana, my question is: What is normal? Could you define for me? Hasn't Darwin convinced you to some degree that it is the diversity of life that spurs life on? If we all were some homogenous mass we wouldn't have survived all these years. *read a little on Darwin's Sparrows* In my experience of people (and I've seen a lot in my *cough* "29 years" on the planet) there is endless variety. Think about this for me please, before you go condemning yourself. Inspite of your being a--as I like to call--Recovering Catholic you seem to have a lot of guilt in that you have to intellectualize why you do what you do. Let me just explain here. In the psychotherapeutic community at large, sexual variety and differences are not viewed as pathological or 'sick' unless they hurt you or someone else. Translation, if your cross-dressing does not impede your ability to be human, experience loving relationships and function in society THEN IT IS NOT AN ABNORMALITY!

And, btw, this hour's on me ;)

[Amelie]

Oh No According to that I am not normal.
My dad was right all along.

Amelie

[Bernadina]

Deuteronomy 22:5


A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.


This biblical qote is as good as the Dr.Laura quote on homosexuality. The response is equally approriate even if its a bit long.

- Dina

----------------------


Background: Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet...

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them:

* When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Leviticus 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

* I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

* I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Leviticus 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

* Leviticus 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

* I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

* A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Leviticus 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

* Leviticus 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

* Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19:27. How should they die?

* I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

* My friend practices the Wiccan religion. Since Exodus 22:18 states that he must be put to death, am I morally obligated to kill him as well?

* My uncle has a farm. He violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Leviticus 24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Leviticus 20:14)?

* I read that Amnesty International is in Thailand protesting the selling of underaged girls into slavery and prostitution. Should I write my congressmen and request that we encourage these young girls to obey their masters as it states in Ephesians 6:5?

* I need to do some business on the island of Crete soon but Titus 1:12 states that people from the island of Crete are liars and lazy. Should I be careful when doing business there?

* At the church I attend, some women lead a Bible study. What is the best way to tell them to shut up? We must not have women speaking in church when 1 Timothy 2:12 forbids them to.

* Many of the women in our church wear jewelry. Since women are forbidden to wear jewelry (1 Peter 3:3) what is the best way to tell them they are going to hell?

* I want to obey 2 Thessalonians 1:26 and greet all the women at our church with a kiss. Why do I get strange looks from them when I do - especially from their husbands? What about French kissing?

* Recently, I have asked several women in my church to marry me since it is permissible for a man to have many wives (1 Kings 11:3). Why do I continually get rejected? People at church are beginning to talk.

* I suppose I will not get married since the Bible states that men ought not marry (1 Corinthians 7:1). What do you suggest?

* There are many unbelievers where I work and because we are forbidden to associate with them (1 Corinthians 4:11), I am wondering how best to tell them to keep away from me.

* Should I have the foreskin of my penis cut off? Exodus 12:48 commands that all men must do this. I would have my doctor do it but I think I can save some money by doing it myself. Any ideas on how best to do it?

* In the case of a circumcised baby who has lost his entire penis due to a botched circumcision, who has ended up having transgender sexual surgery performed upon him, who has subsequently been given female hormones and raised as a girl, who has no idea what has happened to him and who grows up with an innate confusion about his true identity, who is never told about what originally happened to him, who is most often quite odd-looking in appearance (essentially like the character "Pat" played by Julia Sweeney of Saturday Night Live television fame; what is described as a "butch" female by some people), who is often ostracized and continually insulted and taunted by society for his appearance; such a person, when he participates in what appears to be heterosexual sex, that must mean that he is really participating in homosexual sex instead, and thus, should he be treated as a homosexual and condemned to hell also, or should we give him just a little leverage in the matter, since, after all, his parents were really trying to live by God's law?

* I know that Jesus' main teaching is that we should love our neighbor as we love God. However, if I have homosexual neighbors, does this mean that I should not love them like Jesus said I should, and that I should condemn them to eternal hell, instead of allowing Jesus to do that when they die, if Jesus really wants to do that?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

[babe4life]

<<snip snip snip>>

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.


As a born-again Christian, I LOVED READING THIS!!

You have made my day!!

Love,

Vicky

[AmyH]

Bernadina,

I have been looking for that letter for about a week now. There are many other passages in the Bible like those. My favorite on is:
"I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?"

I want to know how many people preach this and then go out to eat for Sunday Brunch. Or as I have stated earlier I am a Firefighter/Paramedic; so I someones house burns or they have a heart attack am I NOT to respond on a Sunday?

I went to a 4-year Religious College for my degree, so we had to take a few religion classes. If I had to say I only got one thing out of them it would be:

"The Bible is not a book of fact, it is a book of faith"

Enough said.

[prisscilla]

try to go through life
doing some good
not forcfully but be discreet
smile and be accepting of others
be patient accept the fact that others have a right to thier own beliefs and understandings
on the outward be non judgemental
no matter what the voice on the inside
is saying
there is very little I can do to change the world
I am not in charge
and would never except such a responsibility
sometimes I forget ,that I cannot walk on water
sometimes I am so egotistical
sometimes life humbles me
and if Im honest with myself
its more than likely I deserve it
I am not perfect

just some random thoughts
prisscilla

[Ava Mouse]

This biblical qote is as good as the Dr.Laura quote on homosexuality. The response is equally approriate even if its a bit long.

I, too, am a Born Again Christian and enjoyed reading this!

My take on Crossdressing is that it's OK for ME. That's right. I dunno if it's OK for you, or my neighbor, but it's OK with me. And with regards to God's view, I've tested this, and he's OK with it, too, as long as I follow God's important rules:

Honesty: Portraying myself as a woman in public is not lying, because gender doesn't matter to the guy behind the counter at Starbucks. But my true identity does matter to the police officer who pulls me over... ;)

Faithfulness in commitment: I'm 100% faithful to my wife. This is easy to keep, as my wife is a beautiful person and friend. If one keeps their marriage commitment, things like homosexuality, child molestation, etc. are not an issue.

Priority: My wife and family are more important than crossdressing. I don't inconvenience them, embarrass them, or force them to accept what they may be uncomfortable with. Yet, I still schedule time to dress up, when practical, to relax and enjoy crossdressing.

STILL, many of my Christian friends equate crossdressing in the same category as homosexuality and would cart me off for an exorcism if they knew.

Any sort of feminine expression by a guy is taboo by my Christian friends. I often feel like I have to be extra macho around them. But that comes across as fake. Lately, I've just been my gentle self and well, they can't fault that, can they?

For you non-Christians, please understand that Christians are made of the same stuff as you are, and are not exempt from the problems and prejudices that affect us all. Hypocrisy is not unique to Christians, just more pronounced due the the higher contrast.

If we portray Crossdressing as clean, tasteful and not a threat, then there's no reason why our hobby can't eventually be taken in stride with Halloween costumes and fun real-time acting.

[Ava Mouse]

Bernadina,

I have been looking for that letter for about a week now. There are many other passages in the Bible like those. My favorite on is:
"I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?"

I want to know how many people preach this and then go out to eat for Sunday Brunch. Or as I have stated earlier I am a Firefighter/Paramedic; so I someones house burns or they have a heart attack am I NOT to respond on a Sunday?

snip...

Enough said.

I agree.

Jesus healed someone on the sabbath, and it was the last straw that got him crucified.

Jesus was fed up with the legalism that had infected religion, and came to free believers from religion. Religion is bad because it takes away a person's ability to think and seek God on their own. Religion is formula and tradition that becomes law. Jesus freed us from stupid laws, and we humans continue to restrict ourselves with more laws! (With silly things like men shouldn't wear dresses!)

[AnnaMaria]

Having grown up i9n a very stridt church enviroment I think that their are people who would say that being a cd is a sin but, if you take the time to read the new testiment you will realize that Jesus told his desciples to put aside the laws of the old testiment and live by basicly one law. Love thy neighbor as thyself.
I also realize that there are those who would say that this is wrong but, they would also say that drinking wine is wrong. If that is the case then why would Jesus turn water into wine for a wedding feast if he knew that it was against Gods wishes.

I don't feel that being a cd is wrong. But the world in general does and so we have to hide who we are, and it sometimes makes it hard to love ourselves because of the outside preasure to be the most macho that we can be instead of being who we really are.

I know personally that this causes problems in my home life at times because I feel like I am not being true to myself or my family when I hide who I really am. And at times I know that my wife feels like I have an attitude toward her and she doesn't realize or know what is causing it. And I don't have the courage to tell her that the problem is that I need to let Anna out to be part of my everyday life instead of hiding her from everyone including my wife.

One day maye I will be able to tell her all about it and how I really feel and she will accept me for who I am and not give me a choice between her and Anna

anna

[babe4life]

Ava, you put it very, very well. Thank you!
Love,
Vicky

[babe4life]

Hi Anna,



One day maye I will be able to tell her all about it and how I really feel and she will accept me for who I am and not give me a choice between her and Anna


It is really, really tough. I am in the fortunate (maybe?) position that I am still single, but I came out to my dad the other day. It didn't go all that well, although it was roughly what I expected. The fact is that I have made peace with myself to a large extent. And I have now found a place of my own (although I am still about five months away from moving) :D

Unfortunately, this is a burden we have to bear just like everyone else. Being a Christian does make it a little more "interesting" in many respects since, as you said, it is often equated to sin. Very, very difficult.

Love,
Vicky

[carolynhcd]

Stelli, that was the most inspired and incoherent and poetic rant I have read in years. It compares to John Webster and Middleton and Rowley and Marlowe. Your are on fire girl and I love you for it. You spoke of roots. The word "religion" comes from the Latin "re" and "ligare". The prefix is obvious and the root is "to bind", like ligament or ligature. The sense of the word is to be bound back to your roots. How, then, can anyone take some dusty tome as their guide? How pathetic is that? I have a pet peeve with Christians, who want to tell me something from the Old Testament. The word "testament," which of course is also Latin, means an oath, a binding contract. In ancient times, this oath was evidenced by cupping one's testicles in the right hand and swearing to accomplish what had been promised at the peril of one's balls. I worked for over ten years in law, and I got familiar with the terms of law. In doing probate work (wills and codicils and "testaments"), I realized that the word "testament " meant a legally binding agreement, a contract. The "Old Testament" is a legally binding contract between God (Jahweh) and the chosen people, the Jews. How then can any person who calls themselves Christian support this contract? In contract law, a contract is not able to be defeated unless there is a later contract that specifically repudiates its terms. That is what the "New Testament" does: it repudiates the terms of the "Old Testament." The Old Testament says that only the Jews are God's chosen people. The New Testament, the new agreement between God and man, is that everyone is now included in salvation. If your uncle had a will that left everything to his son, your cousin, and then made a later will that shared the largesse of his estate with you both, which will would you sue in court to uphold? The second, I should think; the one that includes you. Why then do Christians think that the Old Testament has anything to do with them? Only so that they can point the bone (my Australian friends will understand this phrase), the finger of blame on those who they fear and want to ostracise. As far as the New Testament goes, I am only interested in Jesus, not a bunch of latter-day lackeys and boot lickers who want to pervert the message of a man they never met. Paul is an absolute asshole and deserves what happened to Peter. Jesus never mentioned Hell and never said anything about crossdressing or homosexuality. He only spoke of love and acceptance. The only time he had anything negative to say was about those who judged others. "Judge not, that ye be not judged." OK, sermon over. I do think this is an important thread though and the undercurrent of all that we endure as girls. Love, Carolyn

[Tyler]

Well, We all sin, so if we lie why not curse and wear the opposite sex' clothes? I Belive in God, Jehova, To be presice, Now, Being Gay is wrong, and if I was transformed from a Man to a Woman I just couldn't take loving a man, Because the Old Dead man part of me wouldn't let me! On the other and if I was born a woman, I could love Guys but I know being gay is wrong so Being transformed into a Girl would be a No win situation... I would need to love a guy but that would make the man part of me be or atleast feel gay, but If I loved a woman I would be a lesbian, so although it would feel right due to the man part of me but to God it would be wrong!

But I look good as a Girl and Might have a sex change, but being a cd is more fun in my twisted mind!

[Julie]

I have often seen the anacronym WWJD - What Would Jesus Do? Most everyone has enough of an understanding about the type of person Jesus was to be able to answer that. And the answer to me would be just accept people for who they are. The Bible was written by humans. Yes I know about Divine Intervention but how do we know each and every person writing in the Bible was under Divine Intervention? To me it's just easier to ask WWJD?

I am very much at peace with who I am. God made me and God don't make junk. Now if we can just get the rest of the mainstream public on board what a beautiful world this would be. :)

[BiOpi]

Anyhow, without having read all replies let me say this. My undergrad in college was comparative religion. I could talk for hours on the subject but I'm going to spare you all and just say this. RELIGION IS AN INVENTION OF HUMAN KIND, k? Not some other being. Soooo, this being said, no one has corner on truth (whatever the hell that is and if absolute truth exists, whole 'nuther philosophical discussion) and human kind doesn't have just one set of tennants to live by. I believe if Darwin were here today, he'd be at a gay pride rally next to Jesus.


I love your attitude.

I believe in God (and Jesus) but more and more I'm believing that religion was created by man. I think homosexuality exists both in humankind and the animal kingdom (whether you want to believe it's a way for them to "communicate" or not) and I don't personally feel God would create a homosexual person and then write to condem it. For the majority of people, I don't think sexuality is a choice (more of a choice of how you express it). And simillarly, I think for some CD'ing is just an aspect of one's sexuality. And sexuality is a complex issue, it's not (usually) a simple cut and dry "I like boys, I like girls or I like boys and girls" :-p

[DonnaD]

I was raised a devout gun totting, bible thumping lutheran but havent practised in at least 20 years.

If you had to lay a religion on me it would most likey fall into the whole native american way. We have one mother, earth. and we have one father, the sky all the animals as far as the eye can see are your brothers and sisters aunts and uncles.

Thats how I look at things, I get mixed ideas and feelings from people, animals on the other hand are always dead on the money, and at this point my house is full of critters, I have amusingly enough been called elly may clampet before due to my menagerie of animals in the house like on the beverly hillbillies.

But, I digress lol

Donna...

[Julie]

Bernadina,

Your Dr. Laura post was almost verbatim what I heard on the radio going to work one morning. It was the day after a Gay Pride Parade in downtown Chicago. WXRT, a progressive radio station in Chicago, had just finished a piece on the parade. Then I heard a sound bite from a movie. (I referenced it in an earlier post in this thread.) Martin Sheen was playing a part in that movie, I figured the president or some high ranking authority. He was confronted by a woman who was trying to tell him homosexuality was an abomination against God. Then he went on and said almost verbatim what you had posted. It was so powerful the way he delivered it. I wish I knew what movie that was.

Thanks for digging up what I have been looking for. Now I just have to find the name of that movie.

[cuttie]

yes bible thumpers always say you will go to hell for this or that unless you follow their way of thinking. for centuries christens have tried to turn the "savage beast" of the land to their way. almost all wars are done in gods name, millions killed because they belived differently. people burned, beatened, stoned, stabed, shot, and more because they didn't belive in god, yet christens say "love thy neighbor" and more. me personally, forget the old testament and the new testament and belive in whatever god you wish to choose and respect other people as you would want. stop the killing in his name, stop the hateing, stop trying to make other people belive your way and instead try to love and respect their choices and belifes. i hope one day this will happen because life is to short to judge others and hate, if a person wishes to be straight, gay, bi, cd, ts tv or what ever then let them be that and go on with life. when we finally understand this, peace will reign on us.

[MistyCD]

Bernadina,

Your Dr. Laura post was almost verbatim what I heard on the radio going to work one morning. It was the day after a Gay Pride Parade in downtown Chicago. WXRT, a progressive radio station in Chicago, had just finished a piece on the parade. Then I heard a sound bite from a movie. (I referenced it in an earlier post in this thread.) Martin Sheen was playing a part in that movie, I figured the president or some high ranking authority. He was confronted by a woman who was trying to tell him homosexuality was an abomination against God. Then he went on and said almost verbatim what you had posted. It was so powerful the way he delivered it. I wish I knew what movie that was.

Thanks for digging up what I have been looking for. Now I just have to find the name of that movie.

Julie, I think you are referring to an episode of the "West Wing" in which Martin Sheen plays the role of Josiah Bartlett, President of the US.

Ps, did anybody catch it when the bible toters mention the reference in the bible, did they notice it was in the Old Testament! Just tell them that you follow the New Testament only !!!

luv sandy :)

[Natasha Anne]

Funny how they ignore how Christ died for our sins, and that's it's really the new testament they should be focussed on. Jesus provided some extremely basic principles for people to follow.

How about we're all made in God's image
How about love one another as yourself
How about take the log out of your own eye...

How about this. If you deny who you are, then how are you fulfilling your role in life. Letting people define you is ridiculous. Maybe you were meant to challenge them, and if you don't do that, what you going to tell the man at the pearly gates.

God is not stupid, he didn't create you with a preference just to have you deny it. He gave you a choice, and if your choice is to follow the current social norms how about kidnapping, rape, beheading, robbery.

Dare to be different, you're uniqueness is your strength. I believe in God, I trust him and I see no conflict between me being transgender and my faith in God.



This is the only bible verse that I know of, that even (and just barely) touches the subject...

Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.

Whenever you ask the question of what does religon have to say about the subject, Christians atleast, run to their bible and return with this verse. I can not verify, however it has been said that the translation of this verse was incomplete. The women's part had to do with attaining access to the temple and religous secrets, while the male portion had something to do with attaining access to the harem...

I was raised to believe in a God. At one point, and besides curiosity I probably did it for a girl..., converted to Catholicism. I now consider myself a recovering catholic. Any way, when I told this girl what it was that was truly in my heart and revealed my inner child to her, (and at this time we were really no more than very good friends), she almost immediately ran to her bible and came back to me with this verse. She also a few days later stated to me that she could no longer even be my friend. Although I have spoken to her a few times, and am still close to the rest of her family, I have not seen her in 14yrs. I suppose there could have been at the time and perhaps still is in her mind, the idea that we are and or were more than just friends.

Before I made that conversion to Catholicism, I pretty much had my own relationship with God. Today Iam back to that, however my beliefs are now quite a bit different. Mostly because after she said that to me, I took my entire belief system and threw it out the window. I've rebuilt it since then. What was good and important to me, stayed, but there was not really much that returned. My belief today is actually rather simple. It is this...

We are God, here on Earth, having a human experience. We are doing this, in order to understand the nature of ourself.

To me that says that it doesn't matter if you're gay or straight, black, white, Baptist or Islamic radicalist. We are all part of the same thing, the same essence, the same dust. We are all one! This is why that the destion we all arrive at doesn't matter, but the journey that counts...

Well, these are just my beliefs and ramblings. You must discover your own. Whether they be of organized religon, or picked up from me or someone else. For myself however, I just can't put any faith in a book that has been translated, mistranslated, manipulated and used to control the masses. Nor could I put my faith in anyone or a God that tries to tell me that the very essence of what Iam is an abomination...

[eleventhdr]

Wll alright now let me say this about all of that. NAd that si that religion is not and can not ever be what people and men women etc et all are making it out to be it very simple is not what ever one in today time and place are making it out to be It is really just plain crazy what people men women have made religion out to be. It is not this at all. But what it was originally met to be and that was the love for Jesus and god as to how ever you might conceive him to be he is who and what he hsi and so are we his children. As for sceince that is kind of a whole nother stuff to begin with there are and it does crossover in a whole lot of ways and areas and so it is and has to be this way in order for it all to be and make any real sense at all. But to my way of thinking and understanding the whole crux of the problem is that what religion and sceince have done is not totally right or sane in all of it's aspects and it's own way of reasoning but it does work out all in the end and thats the way it should and must be. That is that many aspects of religion and scince have much wrong with them but if you can reason it all out you will see that there is truth in in all and that you must be able to determine for your own self where you stand on both of them To my way of thinking and reasoning it out there is much that both have done ot make us want to think and reason it all out because the way it is if and when we do not then we are ending up just where the experts who think they really know how and what to tell us to think are the very ones who are crazy. The rest of us can decide forourselves where we stand this has bee the very problem now for more then a 100 years before this people could reason for themselves and we got along just fine without and and all of the so called experts tellijng us what and how to think and reason this is what and why we are having so much trpuble now because the experts are telling us who is crazy and that is just plain nuts!. That's all for now!. Thank's Suzy Ann!.

[JoannaDees]

Do you know how religion was born? How it flourished? It was born of ignorance and fear. Can you imagine early man, confused and afraid, having developed the sense of self? The human mind is complex and can develop a myriad ways of coping. Religion gave answers to the unanswerable. Not all are born with equal abilities, and there came those who saw the power in professing knowledge of the unknown, the priests if you will, or shamans, or whatever. They used the fear and gained power. We now have the reason it has flourished. It is used for power, for control. All religions use it this way to one degree or another.

I reject religions. I have made the conclusion the unanswerable is unanswerable, and no holy man has the answer (nor do the philosophers). I can wait for the answers if there truly is a heaven or hell, and then go from there. But what if this, here and now, is truly all there is? Then let's cherish it and make it the best of times. And not for just myself. For everybody. This is why it breaks my heart to see fellow man visit horrors on fellow man ... I just don't understand how one can do that! Ignorance, fear, power!

Oh how I love a good religious debate!

[Marlene4a]

If I may say, the Bible puts it very simply. God does not look at the "outer" person, and what we wear, but the "inner" person on how/what we think.

We must remember, he made us, and the way we are. Why change it unless He does the changing.

We should never condemn ourselves for being what we are, but just turn everything over to God, to use as he will.

His thoughts are higher than ours. He loves us no matter what we do.

[~Tammy~]

Marlene,

I very much agree with what you say there.
Although I am not a believer in God I do believe in the soul, the inner person.
The body is merely a shell to carry around ths soul.
This also makes perfect sense for transexuals. The soul was placed into a shell of the wrong sex.
Problem is its society view that the shell defines the sex we should appear to be, how we dress, act, etc. While our inner soul has other ideas about who we should be and how we want to express ourselves.