The man she married. Really?

[Sarah Doepner]

I see the phrase "I'm still the man she married." on a regular basis here. Okay, I'm admitting that I'm not the brightest candle on the birthday cake today. I've used it myself and just recently realized that since I didn't tell her before we were married that I am a crossdresser I'm NOT the man she agreed to marry.

The man she married is not me. I've entered the relationship slowly over the years, moving him over by bits and pieces while claiming to be him. He didn't use makeup, wear women's clothing, buy things from the Breastform Store and shop the makeup counter. If he did these things, she didn't know about it and they weren't part of who she fell in love with. It was part of me, but well hidden and was not part of the dynamic leading up to marriage. Sometimes we use a phrase and don't really take the time to really think about what we are saying. This is one that we need to be careful with if we are coming out to someone after they made a committment to us.

Fortunately my bride has accepted this new fellow; man, crossdress version 1.3 into her life. There must be some other things that mean more to her than what I've done to the man she married. I may not be bright, but I'm lucky I guess.

[Lorileah]

Sarah it is more semantics than anything. Every relationship grows and matures and when it is good they grow in a similar path but with the ability to allow the other to have room of their own. Here is the rub as I see it. Too many people buy into the happily ever after fairytale. That one person comes in a sweeps you off your feet and for the rest of your life it stays that way. Now I have to admit I know a few couples where that has been true but as one other people in one of those couples once said "You only see the social _____. You don't see him at home".

So is we take what you say literally, yes you are the same man who married. You are the same physical being. But are you the same all over? Few of us stay the same weight. We all show physical signs of aging. Tat is the main reason nature gave us failing eyesight....so we could not see that.

Now on the mental part, in a way we are still the same but we do expand, we learn and we grow. In the beginning we all thing it will be a certain way. Then something happens that causes us to take a side path. So many here believe that they can change themselves (and we won't even get into the ones who think they can change someone else) so that they can conform to how their partner wants them. This is where the honesty BEFORE marriage part would be important (and some of us got lucky that even though we waited our partners were open enough to see what we were). There is so much about ourselves that is hard wired so to speak. We may be able to bypass this for awhile but it takes power away from other things and soon, we get angry or disillusioned or become a shadow of our former self. Good partners see this and allow the other to grow. Most partners stick adamantly with the ideal they THOUGHT they were getting.

So, no, you are not the same man you were when you married. Who would want to be? You have life experiences and memories now. There is lure in the whole new world before you idea we had at 20 but there is also a comfort in the knowledge we have now. I never expected my wife to stay the same as when we met. I enjoyed watching her grow and mature (and she was even older than I was) and see how things panned out. It is part of the journey. It is part that too many miss because they don't want to see change. Yet it is inevitable.

So instead of saying the "man" you were how about knowing you are still the same loving, caring, funny, good person you always were no matter the trappings?

[christine55]

I've been fortunate that I did not get married before I've become open about
my being transgendered. I was such an alcoholic. If I had not been an alkie
I would almost certainly gotten married and hid it from her hoping the urge
to be a woman would go away. What a terrible problem for those who have it.
If I ever get married she would know all about me and approve or I would not
marry her.

Hugs, Christine

[mklinden2010]

Nobody stays the same.

You find out someone CDs after you marry, that's just something you didn't know. That person is still that person.

You find out someone is a multi-millionaire after you marry.... Whatca gonna do? Still the same person.

I'm a different person now than when I started typing this.

Now, since the complaint it coming, I do hear, "He's not the person I married."

Neither are you.

What about it?

This is the, "for better or for worse", "til death do us part", "for richer and for poorer" part.

If you still want to look at it that way...

But, maybe the new you has other ideas.

Fine.

[BRANDYJ]

Good points by both of you, Sarah and Lorileah
You are in fact the same man she married. BUT you are not as she envisioned you. Not completely anyway. She did not envision you in a skirt, bra, makeup, and a wig, along with all the other trappings she did not know you had or had a desire for. Be she loved you then and she loves you now. Yes, you are one of the lucky ones to have a marriage survive after telling her. I am one of those too. Not once, but twice. My present SO knew day one when she saw my profile on a site to meet people. I had both male and feminine pictures posted. Lucky me, she liked what she saw and read and now we are one....or is it three? Her, me and my male counterpart? lol

[Sky]

I feel there is a sizable amount of selfishness in cd's who state "I'm still the man she married". The implication is, she has to love me for what I am deep inside, and I think I am the same.

And that's not true -on more than one count.

Each person has the right to decide why he or she loves another person. External image is a factor, and it can be big for many people. Let's face it, does it matter to us to look pretty, or are we happy being ugly? You know the answer. So if looks are important to us, they can be just as important to our wives. I think any wife has all the right to say "I didn't marry a guy in a dress and I don't want to be with one".

As to "being the same guy", that's probably not true either. Maybe you already felt compelled to dress up when you met her, or you secretly did, but the point is, she didn't know. So that's an important part of your personality that she had no access to. If you share it with her now, I believe she has all the right to say "I don't like it and I don't want my husband to be like that". To her, you're not the same man, even if you felt the same as today when you met her.

[Sarah Doepner]

Good points Lorileah. There is another old phrase about the disappointments in marriage where "Men marry women expecting they won't change and women marry men expecting they will change." It's true that we all change as we grow, but maturing and becoming more responsible is what they expect of us, not becoming girly and taking over the closets.

I guess the difficult part of this for me is I wasn't ready to accept my crossdressing when I got married, making it impossible to ask her to do the same. I couldn't have asked her to deal with it then, so the argument is a moot one at best for me. My intention here it to make sure we don't fall back on stock phrases if they can't be backed up. For those who accept their crossdressing before they marry and are open to the person they are about to marry, you are many steps ahead of where I was. I'll just try to make up lost ground as we move along.

[sissystephanie]

Lorileah gave you a very good answer! You are still the man she married, albeit with some tidbits she was not aware of! But we all change, in many ways, over the years. I did tell my late wife before we married, and she not only accepted me but totally supported my CD activites. You are very fortunate to have a wife who does accept you "as is," and is willing to share her life with you. Just always remember to let her know that you are HER MAN, even if you are wearing a dress!!

[sterling12]

OK, I'm not really sure that we can say that your The Same "Person" that she married. People are constantly changing (evolving,) and The Myriad of small, daily, changes will over time add up to some very large fundamental changes in A Person's Life. It's only logical; your not the same person at age forty, as you were at age twenty, etc., etc., and in many small ways your not The Same Person you were at Three P.M., compared to Two P.M..

But remember folks, She's changing too! If a person doesn't change throughout their life, then something is very wrong, because The Mear Act of thinking about Anything, will "change" you.

So when we expect No Changes in our Spouse, we are being foolish. Marriage is hard, and that's probably One Big Reason why it's so hard. How many times have we heard someone say, "We grew apart." That's Change folks, and sometimes The Other Partner can't deal with that change.

But, I do think one of The Prime Reasons for Marriage Upheaval for The Transgendered, is sudden, fundamental, changes. To suddenly drop that kind of "change" on The Spouse has got to be a coping nightmare.

Maybe, that's why we almost always suggest counseling, or therapy when couples around here are asking for advise. It's a difficult situation, and often requires The Aid of a QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[paulaN]

Nope! I was not the man she married.
I was a cd when we married. She did not know.
I drank alcoholically when we married. I was not an alcoholic.
I am in recovery now I was not when we married.
I am transgendered person now I was a cd when we married.LOL
No I am not (was not) the same person she married when we got divorced. (31 years.) It was, and still is her reason for the divorce. quote. "You are not the same man I married. I did not sign up for this". LOL!!!!!! She was not the same ether. So away went our marriage. Thank god she did not sign up for this, the divorce was hard for me, but I am so much better of today than two years ago. Things do get better.

[StaceyJane]

I'm not the same man my wife married but she's not the same woman I married.

I'm stuck watching my wife develop a drinking problem and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do to help her.

[mklinden2010]

I feel there is a sizable amount of selfishness in cd's who state "I'm still the man she married". The implication is, she has to love me for what I am deep inside, and I think I am the same.

And that's not true -on more than one count.

Each person has the right to decide why he or she loves another person. External image is a factor, and it can be big for many people. Let's face it, does it matter to us to look pretty, or are we happy being ugly? You know the answer. So if looks are important to us, they can be just as important to our wives. I think any wife has all the right to say "I didn't marry a guy in a dress and I don't want to be with one".

As to "being the same guy", that's probably not true either. Maybe you already felt compelled to dress up when you met her, or you secretly did, but the point is, she didn't know. So that's an important part of your personality that she had no access to. If you share it with her now, I believe she has all the right to say "I don't like it and I don't want my husband to be like that". To her, you're not the same man, even if you felt the same as today when you met her.


Selfishness works both ways.

If she had some idea about you, like you would love to have five kids and make tons of money and she could stay home and tell the nanny when to bring the drinks out to the pool and then got po'd when you didn't come through... Well, she may have loved something about you that you hadn't even thought of... And wouldn't...

You take your best guess in life. CDing is not illegal, not even immoral if all you're doing is wearing clothes, and, maybe even not if it's more. So, you don't tell someone something... That's not the same as outright swearing, "I'd never do such a thing!" Not to mention, it's very common for a CD to think, "I just need to get married and be the guy and let her be the gal..." No deliberate harm intended, in fact, just the opposite. Nobody gets it right all the time...

There's love, forgiveness, understanding, patience, and so forth on the planet because it's needed.

"The" man she married?

What one of those was ever perfect?

[Nikki A.]

I wasn't the man she married either. She knew about my CDing before and I was as open as I could have been based on how I felt at the time. In the 20 yrs we were together, I changed and wanted more, but was always open with her and faithful. We set certain boundaries that I kept to.
Anyone that I think that I may be interested in will also know and have the option to accept or not. It's not easy but if there is no honesty in a relationship then there is no relationship.

[kimdl93]

I don't think anyone remains the same person they were 5-10-15-20 years prior. My first marriage didn't end because I was a CDer... It may have ended because each of us had changed... maybe grew up...and over the years we'd grown less in love. In my second marriage, I started out open about my CDing, have been accepted, but at the same time each of us continues to evolve.

[vikki2020]

We all have a different story here, but they all seem so similar!This is exactly where we're kind of "stuck" at in our house. All relationships evolve, or at least they should, and our cases might be thought of as a bit extreme. Don't really know how to get beyond this point, but I am trying. Maybe I can get her to read this post--it will be a first.

[AKAMichelle]

I think in many respects we are still the man they married. The problem is that many of us didn't bother to tell them the rest of the story about us. So in some ways they got duped into loving us under false conditions.

[Sara Jessica]

Very thoughtful thread Sarah.

Let's look at this from a societal standpoint without regard for the age-old plea for acceptance "underneath all this I'm still the guy you married".

Bottom line, we trip out society. We are misunderstood and sometimes (often?) the subject of ridicule. These days, it is what it is despite many of our best efforts to bring about change.

Then look at it from the perspective of the women in our lives. Not only are we expressing ourselves in a manner which is completely counter to what is normal in society but also in a way which is likely to be utterly foreign, even unattractive to the eye of our beholder.

Again, it is what it is but when all is said and done, their part in all of this is such a difficult one. It's been said that a common response is "this is not what I signed up for". Very valid. It takes such a special woman to be able to punch through a lifetime of experience that has shaped her world view and find true acceptance in her heart, yet the woman who finds she cannot do so is no less special. It simply demonstrates the sheer magnitude of how difficult this is for them.

[Tina B.]

Sarah, I agree, I am not the man she thought she married, I was in my mid twenties, volatile, temperamental, and suffered bouts of depression. What she saw in me still puzzles me. Today, I am a fat old man that is completely happy, well adjusted. even keeled. I think she likes the new me, much better than the old me, at least we never fight anymore like we did back in the bad old days. But then I am one of the lucky ones, I told my wife the truth about me, after five years of marriage, and was excepted right there on the spot, and life has been good for the last thirty + years.
Tina B.

[sandra-leigh]

There have been several things that have happened to my wife and I, each of which is statistically shown to break up 60% to 80% of relationships, so we're working in about the last 1% now. I've changed (not always for the better) since she fell in love with me; she's changed (not always for the better) since I fell in love with her.

[Sarah Doepner]

I just discussed this idea with my wife while we were taking a short vacation. She understood what I was saying but the felt it was more significant that I hid the whole thing from her for so long. When she found out she wondered what else I was keeping from her. She asked what took so long and I had to think of the list of excuses and parse them out from the real reason. It turns out that I didn't accept it myself when we got married and for the next 18-20 years. After that it was one family crisis after another and I didn't want to load any more on her.

It's all well and good now, but she still is a bit riled up that I didn't trust her to know this for so long. So I guess the man she married was less honest with her than the one she has now. It will all work out as long as we communicate.

[Lorileah]

I just discussed this idea with my wife while we were taking a short vacation. She understood what I was saying but the felt it was more significant that I hid the whole thing from her for so long. When she found out she wondered what else I was keeping from her.

I agree with her. Now how do we tell all these people hiding that it doesn't get better the longer you wait? It is logical that if someone keeps this big a thing a secret for "X" years that there is a lot more that maybe they are hiding. It is good when one has a spouse who can see the person isn't someone "new" it is the same person they have loved for a long time with just a different wrapper. Sort of like Junior Mints :)

I am glad you two are working through this and things are going well.

[christinek]

I have seen this issue over and over and always shake my head. So when you got married what did your wife look like? Go get a picture!

Mine gained almost 50 pounds, I did not marry that either. For most of you the mere mention of that will get you scalded. Some of us get fat too and the same goes. I love my wife either way, I like long hair, that to gets cut short.

The skirts and heels the ladies once wore may now be sweats and flip flops. Make up goes to the wind and only applied when she goes to work.

So you see, I love her still and yes she is not the woman I married, this is now the woman I have grown in this marriage with and Christine is part of that growth.

[suchacutie]

So are we exactly the same people? Heavens, I sure hope not! So, what does this phrase actually mean? The fact is that it means something different to everyone, but tries to imply that the male part of that person is still "there" as part of the relationship.

Given the normal evolution of people and relationships, I guess I come pretty close to what this phrase is designed to imply. We were married 32 years before that day when I walked into the room for my wife in heels and various pieces of women's attire. She suggested I needed a dress and the rest is history.

So, what does this mean for me. Both my genders were always there, just not defined. We have both been able to go back into our history and see the Tina effects. Tina is a search for understand of who the heck this guy she married is, and it has been a wonderful joint effort.

Our groundrules include the fact that she can have her "man" whenever she desires. Now I'm sure all of you will begin to ask, "who is he?", and that is yet to be determined :)

so much fun!

[jenifer m.]

i get that too.cuz i came out shortly after we were married.she tolerates it at best.

[silhouette]

I have seen this issue over and over and always shake my head. So when you got married what did your wife look like? Go get a picture!

Mine gained almost 50 pounds, I did not marry that either. For most of you the mere mention of that will get you scalded..

Lol, I hope you meant scolded.
If your wife scalds you for insulting her weight gain then you've got an entirely different set of problems

:tongueout

[Lucy_Bella]

I was the man she married , I dressed more prior to marriage then the whole 23 years of marriage, openly. Then I was asked to never do it again in which I did agree to..

But I found out the hard way , you can't surpress it.
But yes I was the guy she fell in love with, sometimes even without cding marriages fall apart and people grow away from one another. Someone is always going to be hurt but life does go on..If ever asked , "would I go back and relive it all" I would say just the first 10 years..BTW ...I have never been to a breast store:eek:

[RachelPortugal]

I am the man she married, but also I am not the man she married.

I am the same physical being, who, apart from a lot less hair on top, some missing teeth, failing eyesight, a few wrinkles & scars and less stamina in the bedroom, has not changed much. Hey, I still have clothes in my wardrobe from before we were married and they still fit perfectly - being a naturist means that clothes tend to have a much longer life!

Marriage or indeed any relationship has an effect on all those involved, which will inevitably lead to change.

I think the underlying issue here is really whether our wives knew everything about us before we were married. Indeed did we know everything about our wives before we were married. It's a two way street.

Skeletons in closets are OK so long as they stay locked away and have no chance of appearing now or in the future. Why rock the boat with things from the past if they have no bearing on the present.

However, I would be the first to say that lies and deception are not good for a marriage, but I am sure that some CD'ers think that their habits will change once they are married. (Not a chance really, as you have now gained access to a whole new wardrobe, assuming you are a similar size.) If secret habits do not change, then honesty is the only true way forward.

[Imogen_Mann]

Seriously I'm not the same man I was a week ago, much less any number of years back.

Speaking of my long tern relationship, just ten years, we both changed beyond recognition over those ten years so no, by the time it was over... I cetainly was not the man she kicked it off with, but then... She was not th girl I met at 18.

People change, and for some of us it means moving on :/

[Satrana]

He didn't use makeup, wear women's clothing, buy things from the Breastform Store and shop the makeup counter.

So if I was to do anything different or buy anything different from before then I am a changed man? Don't think so. If our passion was say power tools and this was not a passion we showed before marriage, would we need this forum to exist because enjoying power tools is considered weird resulting in lots of unhappy SOs sweeping the issue under the carpet etc.

Did women stop being women when they began to wear pants and jeans?

I think you are missing the point.

Everyone changes but most of our core values and personality traits remain fairly constant. This is true of CDs.

It is because society believes men displaying femininity is perverted and thus taboo that this forum exists. (excluding TS issues). This is the one and only factor that matters. All the issues we deal with on this forum stem from this single fact and determine the paths that CDs and SOs follow.

Believing that you are not the same person just because you have changed your appearance is irrelevant. Appearance is only skin deep. You are the same person whether you wear pants or a skirt, with or without makeup. You are succumbing to the black and white mentality that society uses to discriminate against feminine males. Please snap out of it pronto:eek:

[christinek]

Either one works really :doh:

I was fully expecting to get flamed for this but I guess enough people realized this is just a cop out on our sugnifigannt others part. It is easy to play that card on us and make us feel guilty for it.

There is plenty we don't like about how our spouses turned out but we deal with it because we love the hell out of them. I love my wife so much it just does not matter to me. She feels the same about Christine and she shares in the shopping and many other issues. She is not yet comfortable enough to go to the SCC with me, I bet next year she will.

[Frédérique]

I see the phrase "I'm still the man she married." on a regular basis here. Okay, I'm admitting that I'm not the brightest candle on the birthday cake today. I've used it myself and just recently realized that since I didn't tell her before we were married that I am a crossdresser I'm NOT the man she agreed to marry.

But everyone has secrets that come out over time, true? You can be the man she agreed to marry and be a crossdresser, but I imagine explaining that idea is rather difficult, especially if the idea of someone else’s manifested desires bump into everyday life. I avoid it all by keeping my mouth shut, but I was ready to get married a few years ago, and my girlfriend had no idea of my CD nature. I didn’t really think about it, I mean whether it would return further down the road in our relationship, but I had suppressed my crossdressing in an attempt to embrace normalcy. My girlfriend wondered why I enjoyed shopping for women’s clothes with her, but I never even hinted at the truth behind the façade. So much was going on at the time, both inside and outside the relationship, that any spur-of-the-moment revelation would’ve been damaging. Years later, she still doesn’t know, but that’s beside the point. I think you can still be the man she married, albeit a more interesting and complicated human being in all ways – if she didn’t welcome this knowledge at first, I think she would over time. I know I would welcome such a disclosure, but I’m somewhat pre-disposed to…

BTW, aren’t all the candles relatively equal in brightness? I’ll get my light meter…

[juno]

I think a better phrase would be "you never were the man I married". The real problem is not that you have changed, but that you kept it a secret from before you were even married.

I believe in total honesty in a marriage. Your spouse should be the one person you can tell anything. Maybe I am just lucky, but it works for me.

In reality, I suspect that most crossdressers make better husbands. It should be an asset.

Juno

[JulieK1980]

Lol, I hope you meant scolded.
If your wife scalds you for insulting her weight gain then you've got an entirely different set of problems

:tongueout


domestic abuse?

[ReineD]

The husband may be the same in all other respects than presentation, taking into account changes brought about by normal aging and through life enriching experiences, but the thing that sources him, what sets off his passion has shifted significantly in ways that understandably cause a wife to feel as if her husband is not the man she married.

Apart from all the normal life changes, if it were just the presentation that is now altered, there would not be a significant difference in the husband now compared to years ago pre CD, or before he began to identify so solidly as a woman or as trans.

But the gender focus has changed significantly, and with it, some telling behaviors in the romance department. Where previously he might have been more guy-like in pursuing his wife (letting her know in no uncertain terms that she turns him on), he now is more passive, possibly preferring her to chase him (or to initiate), to the point where she wonders if he finds his femme self more attractive or more exciting than his wife. Where previously he would have loved to have seen his wife in sexy things and he would have enjoyed giving them to her, now he prefers these things for himself. Where he might have seen a beautiful piece of jewelry and like other guys he might have wanted to please her with it just to see her eyes light up, now he wants it for himself. Where before he loved to spend time with her, doing things with her, now nothing excites him more than to go out dressed and experience life with people whom he believes treat him like a woman.

I'm not writing these things as a put-down or as a way to imply that the husbands become lesser men through the CDing, as nothing can be further from the truth. But the focus does change in ways that many GGs find difficult to understand, since they fundamentally still want to be in relationships with men who believe themselves to be men and who treat their wives like women.

How does a wife change? Also through the usual life enriching experiences: maturation through aging and having had children, perhaps a few extra pounds, maybe now she is in a career after having spent more time at home with the kids, but fundamentally her romantic focus is the same. As is her gender. Except maybe she is more distant now through the self-protective measures she's taken after perceiving her husband's focus shift away from her through the years.

I'm sorry to be so harsh, and I know I'm not describing everyone here. But I attempted to describe the types of things that make a woman believe that her husband is not the man she married. He's much more a woman now.

[JamieOH]

well, I had this discussion with my wife a couple weeks back, and told her I felt bad that I didn't tell her earlier on, but that I didn't really understand and accept it myself, and that is why I didn't tell her. I said "I know I should have told you sooner, I mean, You didn't sign up for this, and I understand that" She turned it around on me, and said "So what? You didn't sign up for a sick wife, should I have disclosed that I was going to get sick in a few years even though I didn't know it? What the hell is wrong with you?"

[eluuzion]

The question is too general to answer. It would be like playing darts with the lights out.

As Les Mccann would say..."Compared to What?". That was a great jazz hit by the way...

"I'm still the man she married."

but..."Are you still the man she THOUGHT she married?"

If you waited until after you were married to make her aware of the CD interests...the answer is "no".

Just my opinion...:love:

[Satrana]

But the focus does change in ways that many GGs find difficult to understand, since they fundamentally still want to be in relationships with men who believe themselves to be men and who treat their wives like women.
You make some interesting points Reine but if I can summarize you are pointing out that the traditional role of a man who is to adorn, romance and delight his wife and this is her expectation. Some CDs instead transfer the focus of their attention and treat themselves to these delights leaving the wife feeling ignored and unloved.

While no doubt true for many, I have an issue with the underlying assumptions that the duty is on the man to wine and dine his partner. This smacks of sexist inequality placing a duty to provide on the man for the women's enjoyment. Just as men had to allow women access to their privileges so women have to learn likewise. Womens' expectations need to change as equality is not a one way street.

Now I know that gender equality for men is nowhere near as advanced as that for women so I realize that such progressive thinking is not commonplace. Still if a wife accepts her CD partner, she should also realize that her traditional female expectations need to change and privileges shared. I wonder how much this aspect is discussed amongst couples. Probably not much. Getting past the physical change and the emotional/sexual impacts is usually more than enough without discussing how the wife should share things she previously thought were her sole preserve.



fundamentally her romantic focus is the same. As is her gender. I am not sure that is the case. While she may think she has not changed, women's societal roles have changed dramatically over the years. So if she is keeping up with recent trends then her gender and relationship ideals almost certainly have altered significantly just not driven by individual needs like a CD.


But I attempted to describe the types of things that make a woman believe that her husband is not the man she married. He's much more a woman now.
Again following from my points above, a woman who was married decades ago is much more "manly" now because of changing social values. So many men can point to their wives and say she is not the woman I married, she is more like a man now. Men adjusted, so can women.

My points illuminate the contrast in the changing gender roles for men and women. Women still expect to hang onto their privileges because society teaches them that men have no feminine side. Whereas women now demand full access to all male privileges and take this for granted.

The important difference is that womens' gender roles changed society-wide and are condoned. Every male CD has to negotiate his rights to female privileges individually in the privacy of a one-on-one relationship where his wife is making compromises other women are not being asked to make. That makes it much tougher for wives of CDs since there is no societal support or "fairness" in giving up traditional expectations like adoration.

[Blaire]

20 minutes before you tell her, and 20 minutes after, you are of course, the same person. Just ask yourself. She, on the other hand, can't agree. Won't agree. Couldn't possibly agree. She hasn't seen you in a dress in 30 years, and now you say it's what you do in your spare time? It's all perception. You don't or won't see it for whatever reason. Your perception of you hasn't changed from 20 minutes before to 20 minutes after. How can you possibly think she's going to be the same?

Expectations - Realisations = Disappointments. It's basic math.

It's not like an expanding waistline, or receeding hairline. These things happen gradually over a long period of time, and most importantly, they're expected (1-1=0). You think your wife expected this? Do you think that when you sit down with her and say, "Honey, there's something I have to tell you," you being a CD even hits the top 10? Coming out to an unprepared wife all at once is 10-0=10. A big disappointment.

Coming out after so long hiding away just doesn't compare to a few extra pounds. It's not a gradual change. Her perception is a complete 180. It's not the same as coming out early - there's heavy investment, there's long term commitments. It's not the same as always having been "a little extra" feminine and growing into it. It's you taking away her ability to choose for herself - perhaps one of the best definitions of selfishness in a relationship there is.

It's the difference between coming to a stop by letting your foot of the pedal or running into a wall. You've stopped in both cases - but one's done some damage. Use your brakes right, and you can minimise the damage done.

[carrie-ann]

Yes and yes to both. I'm am the transgender she has always known from the start. I made a promise to my self if I ever got in a relationship ever again they would know from the start. They have a right to know. She had the option to accept it or not. She understood there was no comprise on Carrieann going away. She knew my goals to go on hormones and go all the way. I changed my goals after counseling. As far as i want to go is a TV. My choice she has supported me sll the way as long as I'm happy with myself. Because if your not happy with yourself you can't be happy with your S/O.

[PetiteDuality]

We are not talking about the natural changes people face over years. We are calling about a big, big feature of us that some of us did not disclose to our wives.

Maybe we are the same man, but we purposely hid part of this man to our wives. And this is deception.

A different story it would be if we turn into a crossdressers after marriage, but this is a very rare case (although possible, I guess)

[ReineD]

Satrana, thanks for your comments. :)

My post was based on my interactions with the GGs in this forum over the years. Their feelings may be justified, or they may be completely irrational. But the feelings do exist and I was attempting to explain why some of the GGs feel the way they do. I may not have used the best examples, since each couple has their own issues.

The importance is that GGs do feel a shift of attention or focus when a husband explores the CDing, and the GGs who say their husbands are not the men they married say this in part because they feel left out of the picture, compared to the way it was before they knew about the CDing and before it has progressed. I've no doubt that a GG who has become a golf widow would say the same thing. She feels that her priority in her husband's life has also changed and it is just as difficult for her.

But getting back to the CDing, not all GGs will feel the shift to the same degree. The severity of it depends on the degree of pink fog and the quality of communication between them, and yes, a GGs own difficulty in adjusting her expectations of her changed position as the one and only woman in the relationship. Some (if not most?) GGs want to be married to men who identify as men, no matter how either gender roles have changed in the last century.

I disagree that the changing of societal roles has made men and women more androgynous, or has approached the gender gap in significantly deeper ways than the ability to earn income or vote. It wasn't too many centuries ago that no one could vote, not even men. This is a very sketchy example, but I have in mind a picture of a family on a farm generations ago. The man had his work in the fields, and the woman had hers in the kitchen garden and in the home, which was just as physically taxing for her as his work was for him. They both contributed to the best of their abilities to the family's welfare. I don't think women feel more masculine just because they earn a salary now, or that men feel more feminine when they do more around the house in a two-income family. I don't know that any of this has significantly altered their dynamics in the bedroom. But, I could be wrong. It's a difficult thing to analyze and quantify.

[JamieOH]

I think the main thing to realize is it doesn't matter. IT REALLY DOESNT MATTER! You told her, she now has to face it. And whatever happens happens. YOU have to be simpathetic. If she doesn't want to see it, and you want to remain married, then only dress when she isn't around, and keep your stuff hidden. If it's more than you can bear, then tell her that, and see where it goes from there. If it leads to divorce it leads to divorce. If it doesn't it doesn't. Stop analyzing and dicing up your life and everyone elses lives simply to try to justify yourself. You need no justification for being a crossdresser, you just are. And your wife needs no justification for not liking it. She just dont. End of story, time for bed. Now turn that light off and get to sleep. Sweet dreams.

Oh, and as for the comment that you should ALWAYS tell before you get married unless you became a crossdresser AFTER you got married, which you said you doubted. Well, I myself started dressing at age 6, but I tried to write it off as young curiosity. Then I did again, with a previous girlfriend, wrote it off as sexy play. then after I got married, I got the urge again, I didn't know why. Thought maybe I was going through a stressful period, and reverting back to childhood fantasies, or whatever, but I enjoyed it allot. ANd kept going back to it, trying to deny it, I had even gone about 11 years without having dressed. But guess what, it came back, and this time it wasn't going to be dismissed. So, now here I am, a crossdresser, like it or not, for better or worse, till death do us part. No way I can stop. I have tried, it actually makes me ill, and VERY depressed. So, in a way, I have been this way all my life, yet in a way, I became a crossdresser AFTER I got maried. I dunno... Hard one.

[Satrana]

The importance is that GGs do feel a shift of attention or focus when a husband explores the CDing For sure anyone exploring a new exciting aspect of their lives will be somewhat consumed and will leave their partner wanting for more attention. But the examples you listed, which I presume are typical GG comments, are more than just wanting more attention, they are centered upon women "wanting to be treated as women" ie the traditional role where the woman is the center of attention and is complimented, adored, receives gifts to add to her beauty etc ie the husband does things to enhance his wife's sense of femininity. This is not an issue for most males since they have been programmed to ignore their own feminine side but obviously CDs are likely to be different. They want their own sense of femininity enhanced and this is something which I would suspect most GGs feel threatened by at least on a subconscious level just as men were reported to feel threatened when women entered the workplace.


GGs want to be married to men who identify as men, no matter how either gender roles have changed in the last century. But that statement is loaded with traditional expectations. Aside from those who are TS, the men here do still identify as male but with a feminine side. This is like saying a woman who only wears pants, plays competitive sports, chases after a career and is not interested in being a housewife or mother does not identify as a woman. We know that is not true yet the same understanding is not extended to CD males. Most CDs spend 95%+ as a male.

I think this disconnect happens as I mentioned in my last post because this is not a societal movement but a private issue. The GG is being tasked to alter her gender concepts with regard to a single man rather than all men. The fact that the other men she meets daily still follow the traditional male role will only exaggerate any discomfort she feels having the share the feminine limelight with her husband.



I disagree that the changing of societal roles has made men and women more androgynous, or has approached the gender gap in significantly deeper ways than the ability to earn income or vote. The issue is not about androgyny but about how gender roles have changed. You cannot say that a typical woman who lived 50 years ago had a totally different life to one living today today. Almost every aspect of her life is different and the behavior that she was expected to display. Even the fact that a woman can now be financially independent has massive knock-on effects on every other aspect of gender relations. Little though has been said about how this affected men. Because these changes were being pushed by the feminist movement's drive for equality, men were told to deal with it or be labeled a chauvinist. I am sure some men did feel devalued and insecure about these changes as they took place.


I don't think women feel more masculine just because they earn a salary now, or that men feel more feminine when they do more around the house in a two-income family. I don't know that any of this has significantly altered their dynamics in the bedroom. No I dont think women do feel more masculine but men (not just CDs) have noted women are less feminine. Gender places great emphasis on expectations - men show look and act this way, women should look and act that way. When one gender changes their behavior (for the better) the other gender is left scratching their heads and feeling left out.

I think the CD cause tends to get a raw deal. There are obvious comparisons to be made with women challenging their gender barriers but they are rarely made. This is because the CD cause is never framed as a quest for equality but rather the private needs of TG individuals. Yet the issues and feelings generated are fundamentally the same.

[Danni Bear]

no and no again
but then again she is not the woman I married either

she is now the MAN I'm going to marry and I'm
the WOMAN he will marry

all things end
but the fun begins again for some :devil:

Danni :hugs:

[Susan Dee]

Some deep stuff here.

"Am I the man she married?" There's not really an easy answer.

Although everyone evolves and develops over the years does the basis of who we are remain unchanged?

The Johari Window, developed at the University of California in the 1950s, represents the four parts of Self. Lots of links on the web. In the quadrant "Known to Self" / "Unknown to Others" is "My Hidden Self". Guess where CDing would be for most of us.........

So even if it's there, it is a part of who we are. Coming out just moves it into another quadrant.

Or maybe the real question should be "Am I the man she thought she married?".

That moves into a whole different arena.

[ReineD]

Or maybe the real question should be "Am I the man she thought she married?".


I agree.

[Alice Torn]

This is deep stuff! There are valid points made by all, Reine has some. Satrana, and all do. I agree with Satrana, though, about how the feminist almost totally changed society, and sadly, men HAVE become devalued, "down in the ashes", and generally not needed or desired by women anymore. I have definitely noticed how boys and girls both are crass, cussing brats, these days. I have noticed that almost all grade school, and high school, and college girls wear ONLY jeans. Girls first started being allowed to wear pants to high school, in 1971. I noticed a change in attitudes after that. As a bachelor, for 56 yrs, I have about written off any chance for marriage. I told a single lady counselor, on the personals, the honest truth about me, includung CDing. I though as a counsellor, she might be more open, but, I got an e-mail, telling me, "good look in your search". Reine, I respect you a lot, and your honesty, but, dear, there is a HUGE DOUBLE STANDARD. GG's have a FREE PASS, to basically do anything they want, and wear anything they desire, and it's ok. Men, and CD's are cruelly stifled! No wonder we die earlier, except in my tyrannical dad's case! But, even he has been conditioned wrongly. We live in a crass, dangerous, heard-hearted time, despite all the talk. Women largely pull the strings of our society, and rule it, by default. Single women make up 60% of college and university students! 60% of degees go to women now. Single women, as a average greatly out earn single men. There needs to be respect and mercy between GG's and mates, knowing we all fall short of perfection. I do remember, as a kid, when ladies wore mostly dresses and skirts, they did seem more femine, ladylike. One reason I dress, is to resemble that, when dressed.

[Pokergal420]

It is a dilema. When I came out to my girlfriend after 2 years of going out, I felt the same way, that I wasnt the guy she agreed to go out with and fell in love with. But after 2 years and loving each other she said its too late now and she will accept me because she already loves me. But she admitted if I would have told her closer to the beginning of our relationship she would have broken up with me. She is not really looking for a cross dresser, but we accept our SO's for who they are. She has her own issues, that I didnt know about either.

[Shareecd]

Well a couple of weeks ago I was at the the therapist with my wife. The therapist practically lead my wife to the fountain on "Not the Man she Married" thing. My wife shares and has even gone out with me a few times dressed and really enjoyed it. But I think when I want to take the next step with HRT she kind of has to think a lot about that. Right now she is fundamentally against it and wants me to stay in the mode I am in now. But I hear ya on the not the same man thing.
I like a few others who have responded, have a tough time with this one. She knew about me before and my CD. I think she is just apprehensive that I will change too much. The therapist also did a good job of describing in detail how much I would change once on HRT. Physically and mentally but all I read about is everyone is different when undergoing HRT.

Needless to say I have taken a break from this therapist and am working on myself not trying to get too depressed over it. Since I have gotten to the point I have it seems ever so unnatural I am not traveling down the path I hoped to be right now. I have chosen to take it day to day and tell myself as long as I can still dress and be myself at home I will take it slow. I am keeping the lines of communication with my wife open and hope she understands some time later on. Regardless I know in side I will always be the same kind, nurturing, understanding, and loving person she married. My two cents worth anyway.
Huggs Everyone
Sharee

[sometimes_miss]

I believe in total honesty in a marriage. Your spouse should be the one person you can tell anything. Maybe I am just lucky, but it works for me.
Yes, you're just lucky. But most often, if we told them before marriage, most of them would never have married us. That was what I found out when I went for marriage counseling. Most women, when asked about it, would not marry a crossdresser. Once the deed is done, some of them try to adjust, but often that doesn't work either. The attraction is gone.
People fall in love with an image, an image they create of what they think we are based on the knowledge they have at the time. The 'rose colored glasses' also conveniently ignore any negative things they might notice. While there is room for new information, that often precludes anything that disturbs their sexual attraction to us. Most women find feminine things about their husbands/boyfriends uncomfortable; when it reaches the point where we appear female, it's often the kiss of death for the relationship.

there is a HUGE DOUBLE STANDARD. GG's have a FREE PASS, to basically do anything they want, and wear anything they desire, and it's ok.
That's because for them, they don't try to be or feel or act like men when they wear male clothing. All too often, we seek more than just the clothes, no matter what we say. See all the threads about how to act like a woman, how to talk like a woman, how to walk like a woman, how to do all the little mannerisms like a woman, the list goes on forever. Look at all the men who go so far as to write tee hee or giggle giggle in their posts here. Women don't do that when they wear male clothes. They just act normal. I can't remember the last time I saw a woman grab her crotch, lower her voice, or walk with a swagger when wearing what are stereotypically male clothing. They're not doing it to embrace masculinity. Basically, they do it because it's less trouble to wear loose, comfortable male clothing than it is to have to be an attractive female. It's a lot of work to be pretty, and when you have to do it every waking moment, it becomes exhausting after a while. Sometimes, they just want to opt out for a while. THAT'S nearly always the reason why women wear mens clothing. It's a very, very different reason from why we wear female clothing.
All the typically male traits that women find attractive basically disappear when we dress up and act female. Women depend on us for protection; stability is one of those things they expect of us. Suddenly finding out we're crossdressers makes that stable trait disappear as well. Displaying femininity makes them question if they are secure or not. It also makes them question their marriage, because most people believe feminine men are all gay or transexuals, and no matter how much you protest that you are the same as when you got married, they feel differently. They worry that you will eventually leave them anyway, and then the love is lost. After all, you fooled them once, so they no longer trust you either.
Also, they have to deal with their own self worth. Women, whether they want to admit it or not, judge how well they've done in life by how good a husband they 'cought'. Yes, this is the 21st century, but if you listen to the discussions women have amongst themselves, you will still hear phrases like 'look how well she's done for herself' or 'she cought a good one', when referring to who someone has become engaged to or married. The goal is still to marry a financially, professionally successful, physically imposing if possible, masculine man. Not a guy in a dress who likes to put on make up and heels. When's the last time you heard a woman brag about her man " You should see how he fills out a demi-bra, his cleavage is amazing! And what great legs, he can wear miniskirts anytime. I swear, I wish I had beautiful long hair like his, and he hardly has to wear any make up to look hot!". Never. That's how often.
We may still be the man she married. But we're not the man she thought she married. And that's the only man she wants. And when she realizes she can't get him back, she doesn't want him at all.

[t-girlxsophie]

I AM the man my wife Married,as she knew from the beginning that I dressed.I do always make sure I do find time to be that man when she wants him and she appreciates that.She loves both sides of me and I do think we have a strong,secure relationship

At the outset of our relationship I vowed to her that I would take care of her and would consider her feelings at all times (something I failed to do in my first marriage),whether I am dressed or not this doesn't ever change,so I do believe I AM the man she married.

on a general note,in reply to sometimes misses post I honestly Dont believe a woman judges her self worth on the husband she catches,it surely does them an Injustice,My wife mustve scraped the bottom of the barrell according to that criteria by marrying this Skint,Crossdresser in a low paid job.

:hugs:Sophie xx

[Angiemead12]

I agree that no one stays the same nor should they! If your not evolving yourself then you will get left behind.

Anyway for women though image is everything. Women have been programmed as kids to find their knight in shining armor, marry him, move into a nice house and live happliy ever after.

What happens when prince charming also happens to be princess charming? Her dreams, hopes and vision goes down the drain. She no feels like a failure, failure that she is not woman enough for you that you need to be a woman too. What will her friends and family think? How far will I go? Will I want a man in the future? Etc etc all insecurities possible.

Its been a struggle for me but I now have a supportive partner. But it has it's ups and downs but mostly better. Ever since I came out to friends and family she has been much more supportive of me being angie. She knows she loves my soul and has grown to nurture me to grow up to be a woMAN.:hugs:

[ReineD]

Anyway for women though image is everything. Women have been programmed as kids to find their knight in shining armor, marry him, move into a nice house and live happliy ever after.


While this may be true to a degree for some women, it is a very wide generalization to make. I think that most women know that the "knight in shining armor" image is not realistic, especially as they get older and experience relationships with multiple partners. You are discounting the fact that many women are turned off by other women sexually, and this is the bigger reason for a lack of enthusiastic acceptance and support.

Even if in the beginning of the marriage a wife knows that her husband CDs, but she is told or her understanding of it is at best superficial (having had no prior exposure) and she believes that her husband is fundamentally a guy who occasionally dresses in order to get in touch with his softer side, and then as time passes she comes to realize that his femme identity is much deeper, she will have trouble dealing with this. I'm not saying that she can't, just that she is discovering that something fundamental about her husband has changed. The behaviors associated with the CDing increase and also change (CDing is seldom static and for most CDers it does progress and expand), as does the focus and the importance it takes on in the relationship. In time, the wife realizes that the CDing is so much more than just putting on feminine clothing and this will affect how she thinks about her husband.

Even in your example above, you imply that a CDer cannot take on the manly role in a relationship that a woman looks for when she marries. I've read some CDs in this forum say that they don't view their roles in the marriage changing with the CDing, but many other CDs fundamentally and increasingly want to be women too. This shows up in their everyday male appearance (they become more feminized), in the way they want to be seen and treated by others, and even in bed. They prefer to take on a more passive voice in the relationship.

I do agree with you though that it's hard for many wives to come to terms with the negative ways that their family, friends, and society as a whole view the CDing. In principle people are for the most part OK with it, as long as it is not in their own back yards. :sad: I think this is also hard for CDs to come to terms with and it is what keeps many in the closet.

[sandra-leigh]

My wife mustve scraped the bottom of the barrell according to that criteria by marrying this Skint,Crossdresser in a low paid job.


Translation for those who are not from Scotland or Canada :)

Skint: Broke or nearly broke; tight on money; possibly in debt but not necessarily so; not enough free money to spend on non-necessities -- possibly not even enough for a drink at the pub.


=====

On a heavier note:

The title of this thread upsets me pretty much every time I encounter it, as it implies that any disconnect in the relationship must be the fault of the cross-dresser.

Well, I can tell you this: I didn't know I was falling in love with someone who would turn out to interrupt me constantly (usually between 4 and 6 words in to what I was saying). How long would you survive under the implicit message that your opinion was inconsequential and not worth listening to?

I am by no means claiming to be perfect, but relationships are two-way and partners need to change and learn from each other rather putting all of the burden on one person or the other.

[Susan Dee]

as time passes she comes to realize that his femme identity is much deeper, she will have trouble dealing with this. I'm not saying that she can't, just that she is discovering that something fundamental about her husband has changed.............................In time, the wife realizes that the CDing is so much more than just putting on feminine clothing and this will affect how she thinks about her husband.

Totally agree with that. But isn't it equally true about the CD who is discovering that his/her femme personality is more than just putting on the clothes. I'm not making excuses, but just trying to recognise the whole situation.

Not only is it hard for the SO to come to terms with something she probably knows little about, but it's also probably something that the CD cannot really understand or explain.

Over time we find that we may accept who (and what) we are, become more relaxed about ourselves and drop the internal guilt, but are we able to explain what it means? I can't.

I can explain how I feel when I'm dressed, the emotions that are involved, how alive I feel, and that I become the whole me. The why of me being a CD is in so deep that my explanations only end up in some sort of "it just is", even though I do want to describe what it is. (That all sounds pretty clumsy, but I guess most will understand). I am out to my SO and generally she is relaxed about it, but I wish I could explain it better.

Trouble is, if CDs can't explain it to ourselves what hope is there for us to gain the understanding of SOs. CDs may know only too well the hurt that has been caused, but will probably feel helpless to try and find a way to ease that pain and to reassure SOs.


I do agree with you though that it's hard for many wives to come to terms with the negative ways that their family, friends, and society as a whole view the CDing. In principle people are for the most part OK with it, as long as it is not in their own back yards.

Add in the negative society aspects / guilt issues and everyone suffers.

[ReineD]

Totally agree with that. But isn't it equally true about the CD who is discovering that his/her femme personality is more than just putting on the clothes. I'm not seeking excuses, but just trying to recognise the whole situation.


Absolutely! I'm not assigning blame, nor am I making any judgments. I'm just saying that things do change. :hugs:

[Susan Dee]

Absolutely! I'm not assigning blame, nor am I making any judgments. I'm just saying that things do change. :hugs:

Reine, you are so right.

I think I may have misled you, with the wording of my first para. What I had meant to put was "I'm not making excuses" but somehow managed to type "I'm not seeking excuses". Must learn to engage brain before the keyboard. I have now amended the wording in that post.

What you have highlighted I guess gets overlooked by many. Things change, both for the CD and the SO, but maybe not at the same rate or in the same direction. Any uncertainties are bound to be magnified.

It's never going to be easy, but a troubled SO and a confused CD will need to be that much more sensitive to each others feelings.