Sometimes I feel like I'm making it all up.

[Ziko]

This is going to be a huge tl;dr. Sorry to make you all suffer. Thanks for reading if you do make it through.

I identified as an androgyne for close to three years. I'm physically female. I wanted a purely sexless body. That was my one true desire. But I convinced myself that would never happen because of money issues and society and all that, so lived as close to happy as I could. Dressing ambiguously and poking fun at confusing the gender boundaries with strangers.

Then someone asked me, if this were an amazing world and you could be truly sexless, what hormones would you take? Your body can't survive without hormones. You'd have to pick one. I thought long and hard and I decided I'd pick testosterone if I had to choose... And thus my precious reality was shattered.
I joined the military and had sort of a mental breakdown, crying because I'd never be able to have the body I wanted. And being treated like a girl, which I knew I was not, FtM or androgyne or something else. As my paychecks rolled in and I joined various trans support groups and was cajoled into believing I was an FtM in denial, I realized that surgery wasn't some far away dream. It could be achieved. I could save money and I could get it!
My spirits were lifted. When I learned that most FtMs didn't get bottom surgery, I was elated. Maybe I wouldn't be such a freak, since I never had wanted a penis as far as I knew (due to unrelated factors, I don't remember most of my childhood). So I kept putting money aside into a CD, and I kept dreaming of starting HRT and planning for SRS when I got into the military. I got so absorbed into everything, that I convinced myself I must be FtM, but oftentimes when I wasn't passing most of the time, I couldn't tell people I was a guy-- it felt like lying. I am female. I have female parts. The first time I actively tried to pass as male, to be bound and determined to be seen as a man, I felt like I was deceiving everyone. I didn't try again for a really long time.

But time passed, and eventually the unsurity of things waned, and I fully accepted that even if I wasn't FtM, I would still like to be male at some point. Does this make me trans? Who's to say? Is there a difference between wanting something and convincing yourself you should've been born a certain way? I don't know. I always thought that I simply had a firmer grasp on reality than the standard trans-- that I wasn't going to be "like them" and delude myself I had to have been a certain way. No. I was different. I had both feet on the ground. I was man enough to admit I wanted this. I didn't need it, I didn't have some mental condition. No. I was just that kid upset about his parts and wanted to make them better via cosmetic surgery. Was that wrong? I don't know.

But then more time passed, and more debates were fought, and I further convinced myself that maybe I was just fooling myself all these years. Maybe I really was FtM, just shoved into denial because of society. And I got absorbed into it, and the role, and while I'd occasionally question things, or proclaim that I really was just an androgyne, now I wanted it all: Penis and the whole shebang.

Then I went on a camping trip this weekend. I passed as male the entire time. It was the first time I had passed for so long continuously, and I realized then that... There was no "elated" feeling. There was no "OMG FINALLY!" No. There was just... There-ness. There was nothing special about it, there was nothing making it super memorable. I could say it's like it was "supposed to happen" but that would probably be giving it too much credit.
It felt just like every day feels like: Not amazing.

I mean, did I like it? Sure. I felt like me. But all things considered, it almost feels easier to be a tomboy instead, because then I wouldn't worry about how my voice sounds or the way I walk or if my boobs are showing. Because as a tomboy that shit wouldn't matter.

There are advantages to being either sex. I can say I prefer to be a male, but who's to say it's not just because I have penis envy? Many say that means I shouldn't be diagnosed as GID, then. That I shouldn't have the right to SRS because I'm not as ****ed up as a "real" transperson. I never understood that debate, but now I'm wishing I understood it. Why am I trying to find reasons to prove I'm not trans again? I really don't know.

I learned that on the camping trip (which was with another androgyne who has a huge crush on me) that it purely comes down to sex. As an androgyne, I couldn't have it. As a female, I hate being penetrated. Now, granted, I haven't played with any dildos or strap-ons or anything, but if I'm looking like, sounding like, and presenting as a male... It just makes sense I should have the parts and have a penis and "be a man". Even if I were to get T and chest surgery, that still leaves... A vagina. Which I hate using. I pretend it doesn't exist. I gross even myself out with it, by never taking care of it. A few months a go I got some type of infection up there and I just let it do its thing, hoping it'd get so bad the vag would just fall off or something. It didn't, and it cleared up on its own somehow, but still... I DO like sex. I wish I could enjoy it like other people. Maybe I could if I just did what everyone else said would "fix" me and have my brains ****ed out of me? Then would I enjoy being female and penetrative sex? Seems like a lot of females dislike being penetrated, and I highly doubt all of them are trans.
And I did start to like being penetrated, even if only a LITTLE, when I was with the one guy. So maybe there's "hope"?

I never get this terrible dysphoria everyone talks about. I just wish I had a flat chest, because it'd make things "easier". That's not dysphoria. At least it's not the dysphoria everyone else seems to be talking about.

I never had that "coming to jesus" epiphany that was like "I KNOW I'M NOT AN XYZ!" Because... Uh.. I'm female. I can look down and see that. Why would I deny reality?

I am confused over this, because the camping trip sort of ruined/solidified everything.

I realized that... Unless I "fix" myself somehow, I will never, ever, be able to enjoy sex. For some reason, I have it in my head that "I'm not gay".
Of course, because of my identity confusion... That means I can't date anyone. This makes me angry. I can't date a man because I look like a guy and feel like a guy, which would make our relationship gay. But then I can't date a woman, because I have woman parts. And that would be gay too! I mean, just putting aside this random homophobia phase (I've never had a problem before I convinced myself I was an FtM), that in itself is so self-depreciating and depressing.

Sometimes I feel like I would've been better off not thinking I was FtM. It was easier to deal with crying over having boobs maybe once or twice a year. Nowadays I constantly worry if my boobs are popping out, or how long it's going to take to save money for HRT or if I will get the GID diagnosis or if someone will find out about me and I'll get booted from the military or this that and the other thing. I was never happy "as a girl" but I certainly wasn't in constant confusion/anxiety like I am now.

Did I just convince myself I was FtM to "fit in" with all these trans groups? So I could just pick a side and deal with it, rather than be totally shunned as an androgyne with no hope of being accepted ever? I mean, even though the UK got those new Neutrois surgeries and Nx thing going on, society still expects SEX to be binary. And I really want to have sex. So I kind of have to pick one, right?

I guess in my head I'm thinking... I'd better be FtM because if I am, then I have some sort of solution to all my sexual dysfunctions. And if I am not FtM, I'm sort of ****ed and I'll probably never enjoy sex fully, and I'll have to "just deal" with my shitty hand of cards like a "normal" person.

Everyone I talk to about trans issues is like.. "I just knew" or they had a sign, or they had some sort of epiphany and just raced for the finish line. If I have so much doubt, and am always questioning myself, does that mean I'm just trying to be trans, rather than ACTUALLY being trans?

I need to talk to somebody. This is similar to my first freakout I had about a year a go when I first joined the military. This isn't fair, I want things to be cut and dry so I have some sort of goal. This constant push and pull is terrible. No I'm this, no I'm that, no that's all wrong, start over. Has anyone else experienced this.... Ever?

[Ze]

I'm going to hit the two things that really rang out to me personally.



Then I went on a camping trip this weekend. I passed as male the entire time. It was the first time I had passed for so long continuously, and I realized then that... There was no "elated" feeling. There was no "OMG FINALLY!" No. There was just... There-ness. There was nothing special about it, there was nothing making it super memorable. I could say it's like it was "supposed to happen" but that would probably be giving it too much credit.
It felt just like every day feels like: Not amazing.

This is 100% how I felt the first time I got to present as male for a full 24 hours. I built it up, but when the day came, I felt nothing I expected to. Rather, I went about my day and tended to forget what I was wearing. I simply felt normal. This is considered a positive sign in the world of "you are trans."


Everyone I talk to about trans issues is like.. "I just knew" or they had a sign, or they had some sort of epiphany and just raced for the finish line. If I have so much doubt, and am always questioning myself, does that mean I'm just trying to be trans, rather than ACTUALLY being trans?

Not me. I'm pretty much the opposite of the "I just knew when I was 3/4/5/6 years old" proclamation. I was frustrated with myself as I continued to hear 99% of the people around me say that they knew at such a young age and pushed forward come-hell-or-high-water since.

However, I've since learned--through both academics and observation--that such a statement is not the only guarantee you're trans, while acting in such a manner can be both dangerous and foolish. Actually, when those two traits are mixed together in a bad balance, it states loud and clear that the person isn't trans, but rather compensating for something else. (Why else would they have never stopped to challenge it? What are they afraid of finding out? It draws parallels to fevered religious folk, I believe.) Those of us that stop and question and truly challenge ourselves on it (whether or not we admit to doing so) have a greater likelihood of being TG. Why? We're trying to deny the hell out of it. We have something to deny. (To differentiate from people that actually aren't TG, ask yourself this: As much as you deny and question it, does it keep coming back? Especially when you rule out pseudo-TG mental illnesses, you'll have your answer.)

I've been told many times by varying people that I continue to dig my own TG grave as I continue to deny/question it. I've recently started to accept this. And with accepting it, I started to research for transition without even realizing it. I let my brain go and it turned to transition like a magnet. Now I'm attempting to move forward with careful, logical steps. As tackling transition should be. That's not to say I haven't gotten incredibly frustrated/depressed due to my dysphoria and the constant roadblocks I've been tackling, but that's a world of difference from bullheadedness and blinding irrationality I've unfortunately witnessed in a select few people regarding their transition.

For what it's worth, I believe some transpeople can get caught up in the Standards of Care and force themselves to believe the stereotypes the SoC goes by simply so they can start their transition. To state that you knew, unshakingly, at X young age is usually one of the great golden keys to tell a therapist to get what one needs. (It took a handful of idiots to ruin it for the rest of us. Some therapists will look for any reason to not give you the okay, and hence we do our best to counteract that.) Although I believe many TGs really did suspect at an early age, I think some secretly did not and later have trouble shaking off the stereotypes they (understandably) built up about themselves. Such Standards ironically make us continue to play within a box. To admit to a therapist that you've questioned your identity in the past (let alone repeatedly) risks loss of that oh-so-important letter of recommendation. None of us want to risk that.

Hopefully that helped somehow. I think I had more to say, but my mind tends to wander.

[Kaden]

Gender is fluid but we live in a society that expects it to be binary, the standards of care attempt to keep it that way, which is never going to work for everyone. I suspect a number of people attempt to fit neatly within the directions of the SoC without necessarily feeling that they do 100%, there seems to be an expectation that we should.

To me the biggest issue is how you're feeling about things. I don't know of any way to fast track the feelings of depression, confusion and hopelessness to get to knowing what you want and accepting it besides going through it. However speaking with a gender therapist, if possible, may help fast track going through that.

I can't relate to things from your perspective as I did have that moment where everything about my life made sense, and I consider myself well and truly FtM but I have gone through many stages to get where I am in terms of acceptance. What I wanted to do has been a progressive journey.

Dysphoria also isn't the hugest issue for me either, I'm disconnected from my body and don't like it but I just tend to ignore it. For other guys out there it's unbearable. As with all things the key is YMMV.

Don't compare yourself to other guys, everyone's story will be different.

[TerryTerri]

I also was not one who simply knew all my life. Actually, until I was about 46 or so, I had never questioned much about my gender identity. I never was able to explain to myself the unstoppable compulsion to cross dress on occasion. Followed by purging followed by cross dressing again, followed my guilt, shame and remorse.
Anyway, An epiphany of sorts lead me to a long bout of depression which finally had me thinking of suicide before it finally got my attention.
Since then, my transition has basically been characterised as taking a small step forward. Trying everything I can think of to avoid taking the next step and when it all fails (which so far it always has), I take the next step. repeat, repeat, repeat.
I'm slowly truely starting to accept that a 'full' transition will most likely be my journey.
I do find it interesting that there is definitely a part inside me that is trying to blindly drive me in that direction. That drive has been in my life before, but rarely, and so far it has lead me to do some of the 'lacking in common sense' decisions I have made and also most of the most right decisions I've ever made. Anyway, one thing I have found is simply too much hardcore evidence and undeniable facts about all this that I simply can't deny I'm transgendered. Regardless of how I feel about it and what I want to do about it. The basic fact to me is undenable.
Anyway, good luck to you. Hope you're able to find the help and insight you need to make sense of things for you.

[Veronica_Jean]

Ziko,

I can easily identify with a lot of your feelings. I had the realization when I was about 9 that I was different, but I never felt that I was a girl. On the other hand, I also never felt I was a boy either. This caused me great distress in many ways over the years, since I did feel more comfortable dressing and presenting as a female.

Recently while preparing to tell my coworkers about my transition I had to confront this overwhelming desire I had to justify what I was doing. I felt to my core that I had no choice in what I was doing, but my mind kept telling me that I was just lying to myself, since transition was MY CHOICE.

It took some time, but I realized that I had focused on the wrong thing. I knew I was born this way and could never change that... ever. What I could change was how I lived and what made me feel comfortable. So, I decided the best way to describe that was that I was born TS, will live a TS, and die a TS. That I cannot change. I am more comfortable living my life as a female. That is a choice I can and did make, which is why in some way it is a choice.

That is also why I feel the physical association of gender and body parts is incorrect. That is simply how my body developed, but does not describe the gender I am. It is easier to point to something physical for all of us, but this does not work that way. Well, at least not for me.

Good luck hon. I hope this may have helped in some way.

Veronica

[sandra-leigh]

Ziko,

Unfortunately I do not seem to be able to find a paper I read about a month ago, but the basic premise of it is repeated in many places, including in the DSM.

The paper I read explored the co-occurrence of schizophrenia and transsexualism, and found that the rate of schizophrenia in transsexuals (at least those applying for SRS) was significantly lower than in the average population. The paper said quite firmly that nearly all of the people applying for SRS do not believe that they are already members of the other sex, but rather that they felt a deep affinity for the other sex.


The DSM, for all of its flaws, contains a useful question: do you dislike your genitals to the point where you feel mostly or persistently that you would like to get rid of them? If not, then you might perhaps fall under a different DSM class, "GIDAANT". I did a bit of reading about that category this morning, and I find that I might perhaps fit into it (or perhaps not.)

Papers I found about GIDAANT this morning indicate that GIDAANT is associated with significantly higher levels of depression and anxiety and negative body self-image than transsexualism is -- enough so that in a 2 year study of over 80 people who had applied for SRS, that the researchers found they could quite cleanly classify the two groups based upon results from Minnesota Multiphasic II (with only one outlier.)

[Ze]

If you find that paper, Sandra, I'd like to give it a look, too. :) The Schizophrenia findings say a wealth of information regarding culture and TGs.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Ziko
When i read a message like yours my heart aches.

As you can see, we all come from different angles, and reading your story, you have your own..and my background shares alot in common with yours...it is a terrible feeling to live with a huge question mark over your head, especially one that is so costly to get rid of!

i never hated my genitals, i didnt know jack diddly squat when i was 5 yrs old, and i spent my entire first 40 yrs with every waking moment dominated by what i thought were vague shameful feelings about wishing i could wear clothes (like all the other girls)..

complicating all this was a very high libido (no matter how much HRT i still get aroused quite easily!!-yikes) that kicked into gear everytime i thought of myself as female

i incessantly planned my future womanhood, but never acted on it because i viewed it as my secret shame, and it was impossible anyway!! so why bother!! (u mentioned that a big moment for you was realizing that you actually COULD live as a man)...i could never enjoy sex unless i pictured myself as a woman

i went through many phases and one of my longest was thinking that i was only wishing i was transsexual (looking back who the hell would wish that!?)..and that i was a selfish evil person for ruining everyone elses life by transitioning...similar to Ze's experience, i slowly realized my direction, and i also realized that i had thoroughly researched my transition plan but i had done it subconsciously....then the dysphoria hit me, all those dots got connected and away i went..

thats just my 2 cents, my story...i see a lot of similarities with you but i'm sure there are lots of differences too...and i'm certainly not saying you are one way or another..i'm just saying that it seems similar to what i went through

there is no easy answer...you can see from the GIDDANT post (i checked into that, its very interesting)...but its most relevant to those seeking a diagnosis and after failing to get a diagnosis, i decided to seek out a "real life"...F the doctors, i finally knew what i wanted...whether I'm GIDDANT or ts or GID or just fricking crazy, i knew what i wanted to do,

you don't have to know what you want today or tomorrow...you can keep living and as long as you feel real and self actualized as you are now, then you can keep exploring and having your ups and downs...and we all know they can be huge painful swings...your gut is telling you the answer and you have to give yourself time and acceptance to hear it..i can sense from your thoughtful writing that you are in good shape despite the issues around your GID...

your goal should not be to live a certain way by a certain time...it should be to have the best quality of life possible for yourself and that may or may not include a transition, a genderqueer lifestyle or your own version of androgyny..:hugs::hugs::hugs:

[carolinoakland]

J...wow. lot's of stuff there. And I resonate with a lot of it. For one, I never had that 'common' trans experience. I never had those " I just always knew" that I am aware of, but that's another thread...

One thing I hear often is that there are trans people who don't have that and because of that feel that they are not really trans when they are. But that's not for anyone else to decide.

I often used those signs, and my lack of them; as proof that I wasn't trans. But that didn't work. Now that I've been living my life as the real me I find myself just being happy.

The camping trip... one day about nine months into full time I was walking diagonally across an intersection after work one night. And I suddenly started laughing because it had hit me... here I am a woman walking across the midddle of the street with all these car headlights on me and at one time in my life doing this would have given me a heart attack. Now, it's just a woman walking across a street. I"m me.

One of the things I deal with a lot in the trans community, and I've become quite the public trans person, is this belief that a diagnosis of GID means that you MUST go to the end result of surgery.

The gender path is just that, a path. With lot's of lovely places along the way to stop and just be happy with life. If you find a place where you are happy and can be successful in life then that's as far as you need to go on the path. And you can be happy in your place and wave and wish well those that want to go further or haven't found their happiness, yet. Some never do, and for lots of them trying to live up to the standard of 'typical' trans identification cause's more harm than good.

You might be FTM, or Genderqueer, or nongender conforming. Or just maybe you should just concentrate on being the happiest Ziko you can be, and that's the only label you should want to have... Happy.

And anyway, the only reason for labels is to keep me from ruining my clothes in the laundry! Enjoy! Carol

[sandra-leigh]

Ziko, sorry about what might seem to be a bunch of off-topic references. The point of these with respect to your situation is that your feelings of not being completely male are much more the typical than the exception.



If you find that paper, Sandra, I'd like to give it a look, too. :) The Schizophrenia findings say a wealth of information regarding culture and TGs.

I haven't found that paper as yet.

I found one this morning that was an overview from Holland, http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/160/7/1332

Another paper is even more specific that TS are no more instable than the general population: http://gendersanctuary.com/pdf/TScomorbidity.pdf

This paper disagrees when interpreted without context: http://www.jpsychores.com/article/S0022-3999%2804%2900595-1/abstract

This one says that co-occurrence with psychosis is rare, and that co-occurrence with much else other than depression is inconclusive, http://www.health.am/sex/more/comorbid_axis_i_and_ii_diagnoses/

[Empress Lainie]

except for certain parts I don't want, I do feel completely female and have lived as such for the last 3 plus years.

BUT I also never "knew" I was really female until that blessed Epiphany Day. Then all was clear, all the differences I had from other boys or men all my life. NOW I understood and even my own unconscious actions leading to that day. I unconsciously was actually gradually becoming more and more feminine outwardly and was unaware of it. There were always "reasons" for doing such. But on E day I understood the WHY, and the why to so many things through my entire life.

I never lived another day as a male, and too bad for the SoC, I didn't need it.

[katieblush]

OP, Ze

For what it's worth, I believe some transpeople can get caught up in the Standards of Care and force themselves to believe the stereotypes the SoC goes by simply so they can start their transition. To state that you knew, unshakingly, at X young age is usually one of the great golden keys to tell a therapist to get what one needs. (It took a handful of idiots to ruin it for the rest of us. Some therapists will look for any reason to not give you the okay, and hence we do our best to counteract that.) Although I believe many TGs really did suspect at an early age, I think some secretly did not and later have trouble shaking off the stereotypes they (understandably) built up about themselves. Such Standards ironically make us continue to play within a box. To admit to a therapist that you've questioned your identity in the past (let alone repeatedly) risks loss of that oh-so-important letter of recommendation. None of us want to risk that.

Well said Ze,at last someone with guts to say how it is,they run us in circles and i hate what i see,its cruel,and really causes pain to all in the "PROGRAM" time for change methinks.:hugs: Katie xx

[AnonyMouse]

J,

First off, nobody can decide what you are except for you. And it's unavoidable that at some point in your life, you're going to realize that you're not something that someone thought you were.

So are you FTM? I can't say. But a lot of what you said resonates with my early stage of self-discovery.

I am FTM/neutrois/androgyne. I am both genders, but also neither. I enjoy attacking the gender binary with my self-expression, whether by dressing androgynously, role-playing a character of the opposite sex/gender, or acting feminine while wearing male dress. I played with Barbie dolls, My Little Ponies, and He-Man action figures when I was a kid. I knew that something was weird about me, but I couldn't figure out what; it never could have crossed my mind that I wanted to be a boy. And it never occurred to me to really want a penis.

"Well," you could say, clinically, "judging by this fine list of behaviors, I would say that you are androgynous, and there is no reason for you not to go on living in a female body." That's what my sister said, more or less.

So for a while, I tried to convince myself that that was the problem - that I was just androgynous, liked to toy with the barrier. And it worked for a while - the idea of being sexless was, and still is, deeply appealing to me. But in the end it didn't do me any good, because although I love being androgynous, I want to be an androgynous male. If I can't be male then the whole thing is useless.

It's not about how I act, it's about how I feel. It's on a very base level for me. I am hardwired to think of myself as one of the guys, to look to men for my social cues, to take pleasure in acting and being seen as a male person. I can't explain it any better than that. I don't hate my smooth skin, hairlessness, or vulva, but if they get in the way of my being a man I don't want to keep them around. I desire the things that are expected of men because my ego, regardless of my body, believes itself to be one.

So, which are you? That's something that only you can decide. You need to ask yourself what you want, and make sure you're not just choosing the most "sensible" or "popular" option.

[Inna]

Ziko, hey, it sure sounds like confusion, but aren't we all confused an looking for solid ground. Not to mention folks with clear understanding of their sex still looking for explanations to other stuff in their lives. Every time you mention what you want, you follow with, what will others say and how would they label your actions. I believe your anxiety comes from putting too much emphasis on the world and too little on your own feelings.

What do "You" want? Who are "You"? rather than "what do They want me to be?" or "What will They say if I do this?"

I know it takes a strong, committed individual to take such stance, and it is not easy but it is doable. People for most part will respect strong resolve and since you are committing to male role need to become one. I am hearing about this all the time on MtoF side, prance down the isle with your head up high with nothing to hide, easier said then done, but again, true.

You know, as a man you can sure say the famous manly saying: What the F... and go on be your self, just the way you like it, and I be darn if that isn't manly enough.

Now I would say "huggies and kisses" but I am just a wittle girl so Yo dude, go an get em!

[Ziko]

Thank you everyone for the replies... They helped a lot. I wish I could give a more thought-out response, but this post was some sort of... Anxiety attack type thing. I made it right before my flight to Japan.

I'm in Tokyo right now, headed to my first permanent suty station... Still quite anxious... But not bothering to worry about my gender identity too much. All will be normal unless the military personnel meeting me has some sort of hate for females that look like guys.... But so far none of them have, so I don't see why this one would be particularly different...

[Ze]

Take care of yourself in Japan, Jiko. :^5: Maybe it'll help distract your mind a little until you're more able to do something about your identity.

[Inna]

幸運男

[Kaitlyn Michele]

幸運男

what she said :heehee:

[Ze]

That better not say "bite me"! :heehee:

[Laurie Ann]

I never had a big WOW moment I have just known my whole life I should be a girl