To Pass or Not to Pass?

[Tulip]

I am a GG who loves her transvestite pal. This question has come up many times, yet for my friend there is no choice. He is so athletic, broad shouldered, passing is not going to happen. I've read opinions on using forms, cinchers and such versus all natural you for better comfort.

For my part, I would like going along on a vacation, where he feels he can dress with anonymity without tension to "pass." He says, "Its a goal, but I know I won't."

What is your take on this? If you have experience passing for female, was it all you thought it would be? If you are more like my friend, what helps you accomplish goals? Or are you happy to be the best you can be, and find some pleasure dressing around accepting loved ones? Is it about passing so no one knows...or others know but the acceptance is the overall goal? Acceptance is passing?

[sissystephanie]

When my late wife was alive, I did, and could, pass! That was because my dear wife was an expert with makeup and fixing my wig! Now that she has passed on, I don't even try. I am not good with either makeup or my wig. So I go out as a man in a skirt or dress. I get smiles from people, but in 5+ years have not received one bad comment. Have had many compliments on my outfits!!! If you are happy with what you are wearing, that is all that counts!!

I never wanted to be a female, I just like to dress like one. but it was fun to sometimes look comletely feminine and "Pass!" BTW, I think your friend is really a Crossdresser, and probably not a Transvestite. A Transvestite dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex primarily for sexual reasons! If your friend does not do that, he is a Crossdresser!

[Violetgray]

The right makeup can go a long way toward helping one pass. Also, wearing clothing meant to distract the eye from the masculine and decieve it with the feminine. For example, I still have the biceps and shoulders from my weightlifting days, so I avoid anything with a tank top. Also, my hip pads are better disguised when wearing an empire waist top or dress.

I've been known to pass off an on, so I hope that helps! Anymore questions please let us know!

[AllieSF]

Hello and congratulations for having such good taste in an SO! I personally am fortunate because I am short, small boned, petite, and except for my little friendly belly, thin. I try to dress well in the styles that I like to see GG's, including my EX, my daughter and past girlfriends wear. I pass from a distance only. I also go out regularly to mainstream venues like any other person, male or female.

Why do I tell you all this background? Passing for some is a serious goal, but not for me. I work at fitting in, blending in and being accepted by those with whom I converse, and that is with everyone I come into contact with when dressed! I believe that if one has the correct attitude, confidence and personality, they can accomplish the fitting and blending in with others while out. Now, a thick skin is also required because you never know when some idiot will make an unnecessary negative comment. Yes, some will have a very hard time blending in, however, to me the key element is the confidence and personality.

[Phoebe Reece]

I personally think "passing" is overrated. I used to worry about it when I first started going out, but soon realized that there was no way I would pass in all situations. Nothing ever bad happened as a result of being "read" as a crossdresser, so I stopped being concerned about it and started having a good time. I found that I actually had more fun when people read me as a crossdresser and gave me an opportunity to talk with them about it. I've cleared up a lot of misconceptions about crossdressing with these one on one encounters. It doesn't bother me if a couple of people walk past me and I hear one say to the other, "That was a man in a dress" - as long the other one replies, "Yes, but doesn't he look good in it."

For me, crossdressing is about going out and having fun with it.

[AKAMichelle]

Getting out in public is more like a journey. Like the butterfly in your profile pic. We start out as ugly ducklings. Some not ugly and eventually over time turn into a beautiful woman. I don't feel like I pass very well, but I definitely am able to blend in. I don't attract attention at 1000 yards, but up close everyone knows that I am a guy. That's ok since I am only being me.

[kellycan27]

I don't wish to offend anyone, but i personally think that passing is only overrated if you can't do it. If you can pass it's like walking through a magic door that is usually reserved for GG's. The attention, the extra service, guys vying for your attention and bending over backwards to try and impress you or to make you happy. Just about everywhere you go someone is willing to go that extra mile to please you. At the grocery store, the box boy will walk past the mom with her three kids and two carts of groceries and ask if you need help carrying a gallon of milk to your car. The hardware guy in home depot ignoring 10 other customers in his isle....to help you first. Cuts in line at the clubs... It's way better than i ever imagined it would be to pass. And that's just a part of it. is passing the most important thing? NO, but it can be a lot of fun. I think that if more people could actually experience passing, there would less people saying that it is overrated. :2c:

Kel

[Stephanie Miller]

That may be true Kelly... if you're young and cute. But what the rest of us see when we go out is something all together different. I think a lot of GG's tend to over-rate passing because they themselves have fallen into a form of "everyday normal". Before I get flamed by the Gg's, let me explain. Ever since they were young, society has treated Gg's different (I'm talking in general here. I know there are exceptions.). Mom and dad would hollar at the boys to take it easy on your sister. Open the door for ladies. Carry that for her. Give her your coat if she's cold (while you freeze your butt off), etc. etc. For instance I watch all the time as a GG and I will converge on the door at the same time and they EXPECT me to open the door and let them in first. They expect the man to get the drinks.
So when a man wants to emulate, be, or just experience what it is to be a woman (as much as can be) the Gg's don't understand. They don't understand that we haven't had any "perks" like you talk about. We don't get the attention like they do. We don't get the clothes options they do. We don't get to choose to put on make-up that makes us look/feel younger/prettier. Because they are use to it.
Yes, both sides of the fence experience different things. We just want to experience what is "normal everyday" to them. Good and bad. I've had bad hair days. Hate them, but glad I experienced them.
(O.K. flame away.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you don't have to be young and cute to pass... sometimes i think we all have a fantastical notion that being a woman is the same as being the woman we spent our youth fantasizing about...

gg's get the chance to learn the truth at 17 as phoebe snow said..

passing to a ts woman is not underrated in any way ...it is meaning of life important to some, and i have to agree with Kelly that it seems to me that you will not hear a truly full time stealth passable transperson say its overrated..

but the original OP question was really good...i think your answer should center around how you asked the question! your pal needs to answer the exact questions you asked the forum..

my answer is different today than when i thought i was crossdressing for party time...in those days, i just did my best and was happy with it...i had my awkward moments, but i had more and more enjoyment from being out...

if you guys think you can handle a goofball giving you a hard time, or a smirk from the maitre'd or a group of teenagers following you around, then go for it!!! ....just know this is a possibility be careful and safe.

however, going with nerves wracked over whether your pal passes is probably not gonna result in a fun time..

some folks can say f*# the world, i'm doing my thing, and others can't get to that point...you really have to be closer to the first one

[kellycan27]

That may be true Kelly... if you're young and cute. But what the rest of us see when we go out is something all together different. I think a lot of GG's tend to over-rate passing because they themselves have fallen into a form of "everyday normal". Before I get flamed by the Gg's, let me explain. Ever since they were young, society has treated Gg's different (I'm talking in general here. I know there are exceptions.). Mom and dad would hollar at the boys to take it easy on your sister. Open the door for ladies. Carry that for her. Give her your coat if she's cold (while you freeze your butt off), etc. etc. For instance I watch all the time as a GG and I will converge on the door at the same time and they EXPECT me to open the door and let them in first. They expect the man to get the drinks.
So when a man wants to emulate, be, or just experience what it is to be a woman (as much as can be) the Gg's don't understand. They don't understand that we haven't had any "perks" like you talk about. We don't get the attention like they do. We don't get the clothes options they do. We don't get to choose to put on make-up that makes us look/feel younger/prettier. Because they are use to it.
Yes, both sides of the fence experience different things. We just want to experience what is "normal everyday" to them. Good and bad. I've had bad hair days. Hate them, but glad I experienced them.
(O.K. flame away.


I totally understand what you you are saying... but the OP asked about passing and I answered. Yes, there are a lot of perks, and those perks are what makes passing a lot of fun. And you are absoultely right in saying that men are raised to treat wemon differently. TBPO... I have no problem with men treating me in this way. And I can tell you for a fact that men don't only do these things because they were taught to, men have an agenda too, and their intentions are not always to be a gentleman. :heehee:
Not everyone can pass, all i was saying is that if you can....SWEET!


kel

[t-girlxsophie]

I dont pass,but am happy to be out there enjoying my girlie time,It may be the Holy Grail to some,but I think it can put a lot of pressure on you,I try to look as femme as I can,and dress nice but It still wont make me Pass,but that fact doesn't put me off being myself

:hugs:Sophie xx

[kimdl93]

right now, I know I can't "pass" but I am spending more time in public in clearly feminine tops, heels and a little makeup...with my SO's support and encouragement. Its sort of an intermediate step - and perhaps one day we'll just go all out.

[Loni]

look lower on this sight and look in
"up coming events"
then
"holiday at sea October 30 2010"

maybe not quite what you two want but i hear it is a great thing for couples.

loni

[Fab Karen]

You may pass well, but that special treatment will fade with your youth, Kelly.
We who go out in the world are explaining to those who want the fresh air of freedom to unlock the cell door because they hold the key. You don't need to be young & gorgeous or pass 100% to live life. That's the point.

[juno]

I think that the practical aspect of passing is to get treated like your presented gender without strange looks. With time, people get used to not passing, and it becomes less important. Hopefully, crossdressing will one day be considered normal by the general public, and you won't have to pass perfectly. If you can't pass, but have courage to go out anyhow, just take pride in expanding public awareness, and maybe helping a closet crossdresser feel better about themselves.

Juno

[Sandra]

My SO is a TS for her it's not what's on the outside but what on the inside. She's not bothered about passing ans never has been, yes she likes to looks nice but that's about as far as it goes for her.

[Gerrijerry]

MY feelings on passing It was important to me. In the beginning I was totally afraid to go out and hear the words. Look that is a male dressed as a woman. I joined a group called TRI ESS and there learned to relax and in time I was told I pass. Was it a big deal to pass. To me it was because the day came when I was out and I just had to use the ladiesroom. I always avoided that. I also knew it would not be safe using the mens room in female mode. So having no other choice I went in and did what I went in there for. Yes others were in the room when I can out and washed my hands a women looked at me and said. I like your bag where did you get it. I said it was a coach bag and the store was in the mail where we were. She said thank you and that was it. When I left there a few minutes later I knew I passed. I actually finally felt I was one person again not two people in one body. Many may say they love to be noticed I don't I just want to be just another woman and fit in.

[Emily Ann Brown]

Head to a gay club and get some confidence.

"Passing" is about being confortable as a woman whre you are. Act like nothing is wrong...because nothing is!!!!!

Dress like the GGs when you are going, and don't standout !!!

I find being with a GG seems to add credibility to my presentation. What I don't know.

Em

[Barbra_in_Tulsa]

I personally think "passing" is overrated. I used to worry about it when I first started going out, but soon realized that there was no way I would pass in all situations. Nothing ever bad happened as a result of being "read" as a crossdresser, so I stopped being concerned about it and started having a good time. I found that I actually had more fun when people read me as a crossdresser and gave me an opportunity to talk with them about it. I've cleared up a lot of misconceptions about crossdressing with these one on one encounters. It doesn't bother me if a couple of people walk past me and I hear one say to the other, "That was a man in a dress" - as long the other one replies, "Yes, but doesn't he look good in it."

For me, crossdressing is about going out and having fun with it.


Pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I'm a broken record on this subject, but I personally hate the power "passing" has over the TG community, like it's the holy grail we should all strive for. I think there's a false equivalency between "passing" and "looking good."

I'm not saying that everyone needs to go to my men in skirts extreme, but that doesn't mean someone can't look good in women's clothes without looking convincingly like a woman. Instead of trying to "pass," everyone should try to find the combination of things that both make them look their best, and feel their best. In Kelly's case, she's lucky enough to not only pass, but to pass as a cute girl. That's great for her, and she should flaunt it while she can, and that's her perspective to share. It just isn't the case for all of us, that's all, but we don't need to hide who we are because of it.

[kellycan27]

You may pass well, but that special treatment will fade with your youth, Kelly.
We who go out in the world are explaining to those who want the fresh air of freedom to unlock the cell door because they hold the key. You don't need to be young & gorgeous or pass 100% to live life. That's the point.

I understand that Karen, but as I said..The OP asked a question to which I answered, and the answer was based on what I have experienced so far. What happens in the future....happens. I didn't say that one had to be young or pretty, nor did I say that passing meant everything. I simply said that if one could pass... it 's pretty nice. What was it that I said that seems to have offended a couple of people?

[Phoebe Reece]

The real problem with "passing" is one of definition. If "passing" means that someone thinks you you are a genetic female when you are not, then very few of us will meet that definition all the time. However, if "passing" means that you have been accepted as the woman that you are presenting, a much larger number of us will achieve that. The thing is that unless you ask someone, you never know for sure if that person really thinks you are female or if they just accept you as the woman you are presenting.

I am almost always accepted and treated as the woman that I present. I have had women that I don't know come and compliment a blouse or shoes I was wearing or initiate other conversations that would only happen between two women. Men hold doors open for me and observe other courtesies usually afforded to women. Yes, there are perks to being accepted into the world of women. And yet, I know at least some of the people that accept me as a woman are sure of what my true sex is. Am I "passing" then? It is a matter of definition. What interests me the most is acceptance of what I show to the world.

[tricia_uktv]

Hi Tulip,

Its the person, not the passing that matters. I pretty much pass but sometimes I get a bit cheeky and don't wish to. Its then that I am at my best. Its just about having fun,

Good luck

[Tulip]

Thank you to everyone answering my question. I'm so pleased with this site. And yes, Barbra, it pretty much summed it up. As a GG, I'd hope that statement would be the perspective of my SO.

Whatever perspective you have, best wishes to all of you!

-Mel

To quote Stephanie "I think a lot of GG's tend to over-rate passing because they themselves have fallen into a form of "everyday normal". Before I get flamed by the Gg's, let me explain. Ever since they were young, society has treated Gg's different (I'm talking in general here. I know there are exceptions.). Mom and dad would hollar at the boys to take it easy on your sister. Open the door for ladies. Carry that for her. Give her your coat if she's cold (while you freeze your butt off), etc. etc. For instance I watch all the time as a GG and I will converge on the door at the same time and they EXPECT me to open the door and let them in first. They expect the man to get the drinks.
So when a man wants to emulate, be, or just experience what it is to be a woman (as much as can be) the Gg's don't understand."

I like to think I'm a GG who understands this. I've enjoyed those perks, and as a hot young woman. It can be great. I'm a realist, too. I think everyone who has posted on this thread is likely a realist. I don't get the perks as much as I used to, and it will probably happen less and less with time... Well, until I can be an adorable old lady ; ) I plan to get away with murder then.

[Lexine]

Passing and acceptance are two different things: Acceptance implies that, regardless of how one looks, the third party acknowledges that the person is still an individual and that's what's important. This is something that is dependent on a third party, and the most we can do to help gain acceptance is to pass more because, unless your SO can read minds, you don't know how they'll react... at least that's how I view it.

As much as I believe that one's attitude attitude can carry you far, passing is something that I really worked on when I decided that I wanted to go out, interact and mingle with people. The reason why I put so much emphasis on this is because I felt that I want to make people who I approach completely comfortable in dealing with me, and to ensure that I'm treated in an appropriate manner fitting of that role.

With that said, fashion has a lot of ways to mask a lot of things that we feel would prevent us to pass in public. If we have a beard shadow, we use concealer to correct the color. If we have broad shoulders, we can use cardigans to mask their size. If we have no figure, there are blouses and body shapers that help define this more.

This site, which I found a couple of weeks ago, has some of the basics but doesn't have tips on makeup:
http://www.shopwiki.com/wiki/Figure-Flattering+Clothes+for+Women

Of course, this forum has a wealth of information should your SO require it. Hope this helps and let us know how it goes!

[charlie]

Hello Tulip!
I don't know the degree with which I pass or do not pass. I think what I do accomplish is to be able to go out and blend. At stores, the mall or the movies I usually do not get stares, comments or hassled. When I go to places that I'm known I'm told that I have great outfits, look feminine and am pretty. For me, a 60 year old in a dress... that is great. I dress and try to be the best woman that I can be....and then scoot out the door. For me that is plenty, fun and an adventure each time that I go out.

[audreyinalbany]

Go for it, Tulip.
One of the up sides of getting older is that, in general, men and women do tend to become more andryogenous as the years add up. We all add a little girth, we all get kinda wrinkly, formerly perky breasts sag. Guys get man-boobs. In late middle age, when hotness isn't so much of a factor anymore, I think it's easier to 'pass'. At least that's what I'm banking on...

[Fab Karen]

nor did I say that passing meant everything. I simply said that if one could pass... it 's pretty nice. What was it that I said that seems to have offended a couple of people?
I realize it may not have been your intent, but your language sounded a bit smug.
You focused on what your experience has been, others of us focused on the bigger question: "Is it about passing so no one knows...or others know but the acceptance is the overall goal?"

[Greymancd]

This issue of passing or not is quite interesting. I have observed a lot of women who do not pass ;). I think passing can happen at times for most The desire has to be there first then the proper attitude. Learn how to hold yourself as a woman and the walk that would suit your frame. the right clothes a woman your age and build would wear. It would laso be nice to get a nice wig and have it professionally fitted and done up and then of course a good makeup artist. I think it you have broad shoulders then wear hip padding to balance your shoulders. Wear v neck to make your shoulders look narrower. These are a few things I have picked up on and there are probably many more. Observe women of all types you will be surprised at the variety there are out there.

[Kaz]

This issue of passing or not is quite interesting. I have observed a lot of women who do not pass ;). I think passing can happen at times for most The desire has to be there first then the proper attitude. Learn how to hold yourself as a woman and the walk that would suit your frame. the right clothes a woman your age and build would wear. It would laso be nice to get a nice wig and have it professionally fitted and done up and then of course a good makeup artist. I think it you have broad shoulders then wear hip padding to balance your shoulders. Wear v neck to make your shoulders look narrower. These are a few things I have picked up on and there are probably many more. Observe women of all types you will be surprised at the variety there are out there.

Touche! Agree completely!

A line skirts work! They lift the attention away from the waist and from the chest area. The trick is about drawing the eye away from your weak points... Clothes that minimise the shoulders and emphasise hips... Designing girls clothes is a mutli billion dollar industry! They spend their lives dedicated to understanding the clothes that work! This is not a natural male thing... get into the psyche...

There are very tall athletic women, what do they wear?

I think a major problem we all have is trying to be who we aren't, and this is true in real life. The key to success (and I am not there yet by a long stretch!) I suspect is playing to what we have ... that's what the girls do!

[Tasha McIntyre]

Firstly, I don't think I will ever pass. Mainly because of my height and athletic build. But ya know what....so what!

I present myself the best I can, and have a lot of fun getting out and about.


I personally think "passing" is overrated. I used to worry about it when I first started going out, but soon realized that there was no way I would pass in all situations. Nothing ever bad happened as a result of being "read" as a crossdresser, so I stopped being concerned about it and started having a good time.


I dont pass,but am happy to be out there enjoying my girlie time.

I relate closely to these two posts.
Thank you Phoebe and Sophie.

Tash :)

[Susan4]

'passing' (smile)

Some of my sisters, blessed with the right genetics and some talented make-up artistry and acting ability 'pass' so well that they can do anything and go anywhere.

Others like your SO, and me, will never 'pass' in that sense. However, as others have noted. 'Passing' is not the only goal. One can 'blend'. From a distance, no one pays any notice and, truth be told, even up close most people don't notice, don't care or like to prove how liberal minded they are ... and even if they do notice, they pretend not too. Is that enough. Hell yes. I don't care if I pass as long as people treat me with respect and I can be the me I want to be.

I may never be able to wear a bikini at the beach, as some of my sisters do (deep sigh) ... or fly en femme to a business meeting (at my height and weight, I'd be taken for a bad guy in disguise - smile) but I'm content to shop, go out to dinner and hang with friends (and, as you say, loved ones) when I can.

Your SO is a lucky guy to have you ...

Regards,
Susan

[kellycan27]

I realize it may not have been your intent, but your language sounded a bit smug.
You focused on what your experience has been, others of us focused on the bigger question: "Is it about passing so no one knows...or others know but the acceptance is the overall goal?"


The OP asked for our take and specifically for the experience of those who have been able to pass. I simply related my experience. Where does snug come in? Do I sound smug because I enjoy being able to pass, or do I sound smug because I have the audacity to say... I can pass? :strugglin

Kel

[Fab Karen]

"the box boy will walk past the mom with her three kids and two carts of groceries and ask if you need help carrying a gallon of milk to your car. The hardware guy in home depot ignoring 10 other customers in his isle....to help you first. Cuts in line" - there are GG's your age who don't get that kind of treatment.
How does that mom feel? How do the 10 customers feel?

[Rachel Morley]

I personally am fortunate because I am short, small boned, petite ..... I work at fitting in, blending in and being accepted by those with whom I converse, and that is with everyone I come into contact with when dressed! I believe that if one has the correct attitude, confidence and personality, they can accomplish the fitting and blending in with others while out.


If you can pass it's like walking through a magic door that is usually reserved for GG's.


The real problem with "passing" is one of definition. If "passing" means that someone thinks you you are a genetic female when you are not, then very few of us will meet that definition all the time. However, if "passing" means that you have been accepted as the woman that you are presenting, a much larger number of us will achieve that. The thing is that unless you ask someone, you never know for sure if that person really thinks you are female or if they just accept you as the woman you are presenting.

I agree with the above comments. I'm 5ft 4ins tall, 130lbs, with US women's size 8 feet. I generally dress the same as GGs my own age. I go out to mainstream places ranging from the grocery store, to fast food restaurants, to the mall, to Walmart, etc etc ... and I'm fairly sure I pass pretty good from a distance. Up close? .... I have no idea, as almost all of the time, people do not let me know that they have read me, but do they know? ... or do they think I'm an ugly woman with too much makeup on? .... just like Phoebe said: "... unless you ask someone, you never know for sure if that person really thinks you are female or if they just accept you as the woman you are presenting" Whatever the answer, I don't care one way or the other ... just as long as they don't give me a hard time I'm ok with whatever they are truly thinking.

[kellycan27]

"the box boy will walk past the mom with her three kids and two carts of groceries and ask if you need help carrying a gallon of milk to your car. The hardware guy in home depot ignoring 10 other customers in his isle....to help you first. Cuts in line" - there are GG's your age who don't get that kind of treatment.
How does that mom feel? How do the 10 customers feel?

I don't know how those people feel Karen, but is it my fault that people treat me this way? If a girl is walking through the mall and a guy who is with his g/f stares and his g/f notices and gets upset...is the girl who is being stared at to blame? If the box boy walks past the woman... is it my fault? BTW.. I can carry my own gallon of milk. I am just saying that it happens. These things happen to gg's all the time, and I am sure that they take advantage of it.:straightface:

[Jonianne]

I don't wish to offend anyone, but i personally think that passing is only overrated if you can't do it.......


......Do I sound smug because I enjoy being able to pass, or do I sound smug because I have the audacity to say... I can pass?

Kelly, I'm sure you will always be able to pass, especially going down the path you are traveling. I think what some of us would like to hear expressed from you, sometimes, is a little feminine empathy that has the ability to put herself in the place of others who are not so blessed and feel how they may feel. Because one day, in other areas of your life, you may need to come to us for empathy as well. :hugs:

[Kelly Greene]

Tulip:
Passing can mean many things from:
Do I look ok ..... does my outfit match and is my makeup ok
OR
When I am "READ" will people at least say I look nice.

OR
Can I walk into a room and be taken for female without question

I have been whistled at, laughed at and called “mam” all in the same day.

I prefer the “Do I look ok” version of passing because I know that some people don’t look to close and all they will see is a nice pair of legs while others examine everyone they see under a microscope and are very willing to point out the man in a dress.

If my goal was to be taken as a woman by J.Q. public then I had better get used to being disappointed with my results most of the time, so I try to look nice, relax and have a good time. If others like what they see cool and if not well I am not dressing to please others and I should not others decide how I present myself..

[kellycan27]

Kelly, I'm sure you will always be able to pass, especially going down the path you are traveling. I think what some of us would like to hear expressed from you, sometimes, is a little feminine empathy that has the ability to put herself in the place of others who are not so blessed and feel how they may feel. Because one day, in other areas of your life, you may need to come to us for empathy as well. :hugs:

Let me tell you something, I didn't pop out of the womb being able to pass. It took some luck and a whole lot of hard work to get to this point. I have had my share of heartache, laughter, and ridicule. I live this 24/7 365 and have been doing so for nearly 8 years. I think I have paid my dues, and if some of you think that that i am somehow remiss for finally being able to pass as the woman I have always felt that I am and to be proud of what I have accomplished.. So be it.. But don't ever think that i have not suffered as much if not more than ( quote you) those "not so blessed". No matter how bad I may look or feel, I can't change back to my drabs and live to fight another day. I have to face it head on every single day. NOT everyone can pass, bummer, but it is what it is, and i didn't make the rules.

[TxKimberly]

I think the young and beautiful Kelly failed to mention a major perk of passing, perhaps thinking it self evident. If you pass, there is no need for feeling scared or nervous. No worries about someone reacting badly to you, no worries about going to the bathroom, no worries about laughter or snide remarks. Kelly mentions all of the things you can have and get from being passable - what I mention are all of the things that you avoid if you were passable.
My ability to pass is entirely hit or miss - I have on some occasions, but on most I don't. This has given my rare glimpses at the life or perks that Kelly mentions. I have had doors opened for me, I have had men offer to help with my bags, and these are nice and affirming things. But more than that, when I do appear to be passing, I like the peace of mind it brings - the lack of worry.
So, having admitted that most of the time I don't pass, I can confirm part of what you mention in your OP. Being accepted is acceptable to me. I know I'm a male, they know I'm a male, and still they treat me with respect and courtesy. I'd rather pass, but I'll take this as second prize and do find my out and about time to be more than worth this.

[Annaliese2010]

I am a GG who loves her transvestite pal. Christ I wish I could find a GG like you. Except...what if your 'pal' was, ok yea a regular guy you like but, instead of a simple crossdressing man, or transvestite, has a completely feminine personality normally held in check. And when there's the opportunity to allow her to surface and express, such as on a vacation like you suggest, he becomes she in an essential and genuine way. An authentic girl not only by style of dress, but by tone of voice & mood, behavior, tastes, thoughts expressed, feelings and attitude? Much as how an accomplished actor really gets into their character, becoming submerged in another personality, convincingly so, with no sense of play acting. But in this case where it isn't 'acting' but more like the free expression of an 'alternate personality', one that is female and well defined already - sort of a 2nd mind if you wanna call it that.

For example, I could never be viewed as a man (that would be kind of insulting or embarrassing) nor could I ever be with a man (it's repugnant I'm just not that way). I like women but to sleep with a GG woman has for me a way difernt feel, something of the character of what I can only presume to be what GG women must feel who are bi or lez. I certainly do NOT feel myself to be a "crossdressed man having fun". And yet I somehow know the guy in me feels hetero normal when making love to a woman. I'm just curious how you feel about someone like that? Is is exciting would it turn you on or too weird?

I mean...do you think after an initial period of adjustment and acceptance you could come to legitimately relate to me as a girlfriend - as you do your other gf's? If so, would this prevent you from having sex together, or make it more exciting? Would it bother you to be bi or lez, knowing thats how I'd view you as my friend? Of course - I am asking this respectfully - not in a personal way!!! Just wondering what a GG thinks bout this. Thnx.

[Tulip]

Now that's a great question to start a thread with...I think there is a place on here to ask questions specifically of all GGs.

To be perfectly honest, my friend is a member and posts on the forums. We previously dated, so answering your question would be personal for us both. Start a new thread with this question, and you'll get many responses. I am sure : )

[Fab Karen]

Passing isn't it- what you've said in essence Kelly is not just "I can pass and it has been wonderful," but also "guys find me hot stuff & I get special treatment because of it" - in the bigger picture of life, that isn't that special. There are greater things in life.We ALL age, we all at least eventually get ignored for the next "hot young thing" coming along.


Being accepted is acceptable to me. I know I'm a male, they know I'm a male, and still they treat me with respect and courtesy. I'd rather pass, but I'll take this as second prize and do find my out and about time to be more than worth this.
Right on.

[kellycan27]

Passing isn't it- what you've said in essence Kelly is not just "I can pass and it has been wonderful," but also "guys find me hot stuff & I get special treatment because of it" - in the bigger picture of life, that isn't that special. There are greater things in life.We ALL age, we all at least eventually get ignored for the next "hot young thing" coming along.


Right on.


I meant that if one can pass... Those are some of the perks. men treat girls differently than they treat other men. But that aside... I know that we all age, and I will too, but right now I am having the time of my life. When the time comes for as you say, the next hot thing come along..... s**t happens.
30 or 40 years down the road, I won't regret the things that I didn't do. In the big picture it may not be that special, but right now... it ain't bad. I am having a hard time understanding your objection to this. wasn't there ever a time in you life where you seemed to shine, and things were going your way?
A time when you felt special? Am I wrong?

Kel

[Fab Karen]

You've implied passing equals being seen as "hot stuff" ( women come in a variety of forms ), & that girls ( GG's ) get such special treatment because they are female ( when as I mentioned the reality is there are GG's your age who don't get that special treatment from guys ).

[Starling]

Everybody knows that RuPaul has a penis, but she is manifestly more "real" as a woman. I think most people, of any persuasion, would be more comfortable relating to RuPaul in person as female, even though she is tall and somewhat muscular.

We have a spark inside that can energize our female presentation and argue that we be treated as female. We need to trust that spark and stop worrying about passing.

Kelly happens to be prettier than 95% of the population, and she is enjoying the benefits thereof--as each and every one of us would in her shoes. But she's a good egg, so don't get mad at her for recognizing her good fortune; get mad at the silly men who think she might sleep with them for carrying her groceries.

:) Lallie

[TxKimberly]

. . .

Kelly happens to be prettier than 95% of the population, and she is enjoying the benefits thereof--as each and every one of us would in her shoes. But she's a good egg, so don't get mad at her for recognizing her good fortune; get mad at the silly men who think she might sleep with them for carrying her groceries.

:) Lallie



THANK YOU! I was trying to figure out how to phrase my thoughts when you responded so very eloquently.
If you ask me, Kelly has done us all a good turn. She has given us a small gimps at what it is like to not only pass, but to be pretty and "hot" as your doing it. Her only offense here was in being honest and candid enough to bluntly admit it. I think there are very few, if any of us, that haven't wished and dreamed that we could experience the kind of treatment or adoration that Kelly mentions. I've met a few of the GG's on this forum over the years, and I'm fairly confident that many of them have received the same treatment that Kelly describes - they just may not feel it appropriate to comment on it.
Given the topic and question of this thread though, I think it was entirely appropriate for Kelly to share her experiences because that is exactly what the OP asked about!
Thanks Kelly, and I'll carry your gallon of Milk any time - right AFTER I take care of the mother with the full cart first. Getting older DOES come with a few perks, one of which is the ability to not be driven entirely by my hormones anymore. :D

[docrobbysherry]

My acceptance of myself as a CD has NOTHING what so ever to do with passing in public!

It would be FUN to be able to dress and pass ocassionally! But, since I can never pass, I don't feel the need to go out dressed!

[t-girlxsophie]

Tulip:
Passing can mean many things from:
Do I look ok ..... does my outfit match and is my makeup ok
OR
When I am "READ" will people at least say I look nice.

thats exactly the way I feel now about "passing" as long as I am treated with respect and maybe even just one person thinks theres a crossdresser.he looks not too bad.at least he made the effort-and i am left to enjoy my day out that would be a good femme time for me-out tomorrow so hopefully can have that day then

:hugs:sophie xx

[Vickie_CDTV]

A friend once explained passing this way to me, and I think it is appropriate for the discussion in this thread.

1. Not everyone has to have passing as a goal. If one doesn't care about passing, that is as valid as those who dress and do want to pass.

2. Those who dress and pass will be able to experience treatment by others (in some areas anyway) as a GG would and get the "authentic GG experience in public" (as they explained.) Those who don't pass will not get the same treatment, it may not be worse but it will not be the same.

3. Those who dress and go out and pass will not experience the potential harassment that those who dress and go in public and do not pass may be exposed to. If one passes, they can use the ladies room and other gender specific facilities without fear of trouble; those who do not pass must be very careful about restrooms to avoid being read and possible trouble.

4. Not everyone can dress and pass 100%. Some folks are fortunate and they easily pass because they look, sound and come off in person as female with little to no effort. Some folks may not be able to pass at all for reasons beyond their control (often a combination of voice, extreme height and build.) Such is life unfortunately, one can work very very hard but for some it will never be enough to pass 100%; all they can do is do the best job they can and accept themselves as they are, and use common sense in public to avoid possible trouble.

[kellycan27]

You've implied passing equals being seen as "hot stuff" ( women come in a variety of forms ), & that girls ( GG's ) get such special treatment because they are female ( when as I mentioned the reality is there are GG's your age who don't get that special treatment from guys ).

No, I answered the OP's question based on my experience. if there is any disparity between the way one girl is treated from another you need to put the blame squarely where it belongs...and that is men. You are probably seeing some conceited little b***h, but the truth of the matter is, that it makes no difference what I think because it's men who will ultimately decide if they find me ( or anyone else for that matter) attractive or not.Take passing completely out of the equation and look at the relationship between gg's and gm's... Right or wrong, this is how it's been played out for years and years. true?
I never said that one has to be Penelope Cruz to get attention.. all you need is for men to find you attractive. Yup women come in all shapes and sizes, and so does the attraction for them. :hugs:

Kel

[Kaitlyn Michele]

this is always such a hot button thing...

i don't see why anyone would get attacked for making statements about how great it is to pass...especially in a forum where we see questions like is passing the holy grail? or OMG I PASSED!! as topics..

[msginaadoll]

about and being mehere is nothing wrong with passing and there is nothing wrong with not passing. The truth is all of us will never know when we pass or when we dont, because passing realies on another person. Well maybe the mind readers know. In Kelly's case she recieves affirmation that she is a woman but being referred to as maam, miss, etc. Also by the looks she gets from men, and maybe envious glances from women.

In my case i am sometimes referred to in the female vernacular. Is that being polite or just being kind. I dont know. I am also referred to as a male at times. Yet I have always been treated with respect. I have been approached and asked if I know the time or for directions. I havent got too many strange stares so is that passing or being accepting. In the end I am ok with just being out and about and being me. I appreciate what Allie showed me, just being yourself means that you pass as a human being to most people. They will respond to kindness and friendliness with the same.

[Fab Karen]

We all were young once, and some of us had some attention of being treated as though we were special because of how we looked. At least eventually we know it shouldn't be taken seriously. It's not about any particular person.
The point being made is that "passing" if you INSIST on repeating the term, does not necessarily mean you have to look like Kelly or ( insert name here ) or literally be taken up close for a GG- the definition changes according to the ideas of the person using the word. And inexperienced girls will bolt the door to the outside world because "I can't go outside, I won't pass!" ( meaning meet the harshest judgement of what passing supposedly means ).
And as many have said & will say, we don't know what people are thinking, though they may show basic respect for our gender-identity. We do the best we can with what we've got ( unless we feel a deep need to change our body with hormones & surgery ) & and get out when we can and live out in the world because we are fellow human beings & have that right. Focus on being treated with respect as a member of this diverse society & time we live in, stop thinking about "do they/will they think I'm a GG??" & go. None of us regret doing so. You hold the key to your prison cell, as well as the key to greater understanding from society.

[kellycan27]

We all were young once, and some of us had some attention of being treated as though we were special because of how we looked. At least eventually we know it shouldn't be taken seriously. It's not about any particular person.
The point being made is that "passing" if you INSIST on repeating the term, does not necessarily mean you have to look like Kelly or ( insert name here ) or literally be taken up close for a GG- the definition changes according to the ideas of the person using the word. And inexperienced girls will bolt the door to the outside world because "I can't go outside, I won't pass!" ( meaning meet the harshest judgement of what passing supposedly means ).
And as many have said & will say, we don't know what people are thinking, though they may show basic respect for our gender-identity. We do the best we can with what we've got ( unless we feel a deep need to change our body with hormones & surgery ) & and get out when we can and live out in the world because we are fellow human beings & have that right. Focus on being treated with respect as a member of this diverse society & time we live in, stop thinking about "do they/will they think I'm a GG??" & go. None of us regret doing so. You hold the key to your prison cell, as well as the key to greater understanding from society.

Karen
I totally agree with everything that you just said. My only intent was to offer a slightly different prospective. A prospective that I have been lucky enough to have experienced.

Kel

[Sally24]

What is your take on this? If you have experience passing for female, was it all you thought it would be? If you are more like my friend, what helps you accomplish goals? Or are you happy to be the best you can be, and find sojme pleasure dressing around accepting loved ones? Is it about passing so no one knows...or others know but the acceptance is the overall goal? Acceptance is passing?

To get back on topic.........
I would have to say that passing has been more than I ever even fantasised about! The times that I receive full GG treatment are some of the best times of my life. Especially when out with my wife and daughter I get just a taste of what my life could have been.

That being said, I have gotten by the early days where I was deathly afraid that people would "know". When out with other tall t-girls I am quite content with being seen as feminine but not female. Looking attractive is enough of a goal for me.

If your friends face has the possibility of looking feminine he might benefit from some professional makeup instruction. Also, attending a convention like SCC can be a very safe relaxing eye opening experience.

Kudos to you for caring about your friend so much!