Im sorry I could not defend us

[Kerigirl2009]

I found myself at work with three women asn always and as one was googling she was flabbergasted by the term sexual reassignment surgery and this started a conversation about LGBT and how they think it is wrong for someone to go to such extremes and want what we want. As one female coworker said "God gave you this now it is your to deal with so just deal with it" The best I could come up with was well that is how some people deal with it by making themselves present on the outside as they feel on the inside. (about the best as I could do without outing myself)
This started another conversation about the time she was driving and came across two men dressed in womens outfits. She said they looked like hookers trying to attract men. I said so they where crossdressers, so what, they where probably out just enjoying their walk.

Then the women stated all 3 of them that they think that it is just gross for men to do this and cannot handle seeing men on men but that they can handle seeing 2 women together. This made me think WHY is it ok in thier world for women to be with women but be disgusted by men being with men.
I can only come up with HOLLYWOOD as this is a common scene played in many movies so it is socially acceptable to people.

They all said to each their own and they would not treat them any different if they where to have known them, (at this point I thought just for a moment about saying well I know what those crossdressers experience as I am also a crossdresser.) BUT I chickened out. So I apologize to all of US.

I will still go to work everyday underdressed and someday I am sure one of the women will notice if they have not already
I would so love to be included in their conversations more but I can tell it is a conversation that the women have on a routine basis.

One of the women even revealed that her brother is gay and that she is ok with it however her belief is that when it comes time for him to meet God he will be judged, I did defend this as saying I do not believe he will be judged by his sexual orientation but by how he serves humanity and treats others.

I know that it is not a choice we make to be who we are weather it is crossdressing or gay or just being straight, we where all made by God and I believe we are going to be judged by how we are as a person.

Sorry I am just taken back a bit by this conversation I was lucky enough to hear and somewhat participate in but it did open my eyes up a bit about who it is that I am working with. I think when and if they do find out I am a crossdresser life will go on but the conversations will not reveal to many details about how a woman really thinks.

Sorry so long and jumps around a bit when am thinking, just a bit more confused as to why women think it is ok for women to be with women but that it is so wrong for a man to want to dress like a woman or a man be with a man.
Any thoughts? Feel free to add any

[kimdl93]

Over the years I have bit my tongue many times in conversations like these. I tend to squirm a bit whenever anyone plays the God card - it trumps any fact or reasoning you might offer. And I can't help but wonder how anyone who professes to believe in God can be so arrogant as to suggest that they know "Her" intentions or Her preferences.

You were wise to avoid a useless arguement to get into - it seems people cling to their beliefs despite any and all evidence to the contrary.

[Stephanie Miller]

I don't see the problem of you taking them correct information about us! Just tell them that you and the wife were talking about work - the subject of this conversation came up and so did the curiosity of "where it began" and does God really give a hoot about our physical as he does our treating of others. God must not want perfection in us or he wouldn't allow the human body to go as many directions as it does. Nobody thinks it's Gods fault for all the Single gene disorders (SGD) that account for about 1 in 300 births.
What makes a CD so special in thier eyes that during our trimester wash one tiny tiny bit of brain wiring might be different than so many others?
No need to give yourself away while you play the devils advocate for lunch time fun. :heehee:

[Mi$$ Despair]

I like to think of God, Heaven and Hell in the Black Adders terms "Heaven is for people who want to go to heaven, Hell is for people that want to go to Hell" :)

[Jay Cee]

It must be great to have such an intimate knowledge of exactly what God approves and disapproves of. Those women you work with are truly blessed. :rolleyes:

[Lee51964]

They say God Loves all his children equily so I know she loves me
there is only one person who can ever judge me and I will atone for my life
on that day and to no one else
weather you like men or women is not a choice it is where your heart flows and I was once told that God guides your heart

I hope when you do come out to these fine ladies that they will have the respect to know that you are the same person they have been working with right along and take you into there hearts

Sarah

[DeeInGeorgia]

Push up bras, any bra for that matter, implants, makeup, nail polish are all attempts by people to alter what God gave them. It is all a matter of quantity. Bu of coirse, they woild never agree to it.

[sissystephanie]

Dee in Georgia said it all in a very good way! I will add that I think God judges us as individuals, not as a group!! Hopefully, I will have a chance to talk when my time comes!

[Sara Jessica]

There is no shame, nor any need to apologize, because you didn't utterly out yourself in the defense of US on the TG side of things. Everyone has different life situations which go far to dictate what we can disclose to others. As was said before, you did the best you could, which was pretty darned good if you ask me.

[Christinedreamer]

"Love American Style" had an episode with Phyllis Diller and Richard Deacon coming home after a dinner with friends. While they are undressing they are complaining about all the phony people and the white lies they tell socially. During this conversation they both take off corsets, girdles, a wig for her and toupee for him, elevator shoes, false eyelashes, a push up bra with falsies, make-up, costume jewelry, tape from the temples for a facelifted appearance, contact lenses, etc.

The old adage about removing the beam from your own eye before pointing out the splinter in your neighbor's eye should be delivered to these women.

[sandra-leigh]

"Love American Style"

Ooo, I used to watch that! :o

[txrobinm]

Girl, you did just fine. Can't push it more without giving away the farm in that situation, doesn't sound very sympathetic to our cause.

If the CDers they were talking about were dressed like hookers, then we should all remember that what we wear has an impact not just on how we feel but on how others see us and this incredibly diverse group to which we belong.

Regarding religion, we are in sales, not management. That was very presumptious of her to say.

About 11 years ago I was trying to not CD and the subject came up at a dinner gathering, fueled by Dennis Rodman's antics, I believe. The best I could do was "well, something's not quite right there". But in other conversations, at other times with this same group, pretty much anything that doesn't hurt anyone else that keeps you from "going postal" was deemed OK.

[carrie-ann]

I think you did just fine no problem. When the time is wright youll find a way to say what you want too. Everyone has to do what they need to do to live and work in this world.

[Pythos]

Such open minded modern women you work with.

Wow, it is just astonishing.

[Inna]

I have given plenty of thought to the subject of woman being able to accept an idea of another woman in sex more so than male with male. Females have deeper sensuality and therefore their understanding of sexual act is quite different then males. Deeper sensuality translates into more sophisticated appreciation of form and senses allowing for openness to same sex fantasy. There were several studies conducted on this subject and percentage wise woman were more open by far to engage in same sex act then man.

As to your defense of our cause, my god woman, what have you done:eek:................just kidding!
You have done exactly what needed to be done. Gently illuminated your open view without causing a major stir. This is how world sees us and it is slowly changing but that is a reality. If we expect more we get hurt, so expect less and perhaps every so often we get a nice surprise.

[joanna marie]

It just makes you proud to be a christian doesn't it

I'm glad I'm an atheist



"The question is not, Why do lemmings rush to jump off the cliff and drown, but why people don't"
Oscar Wilde

[Kerigirl2009]

Many responses to my post. I just love reading the comments especially the positive ones.

My negative reaction to this is that although I underdress at work and I believe no one has noticed I have mentally prepared myself to answer honestly if they ever do ask me, and I feel I backed out on myself.

I do Know that when I do meet God face to face he will look straight at me and welcome me into heaven. :)

[Vickie_CDTV]

You do not owe anyone an apology. Your first obligation is to protect your livelihood (and that of your family if you have one.) I seriously doubt that opening up further than you did would have changed their mind anyway, and could have put you at risk for no reason.

[Danni Bear]

Apology, none expected, none needed.You did what you could.
Their attitude could have put you at risk (job,family,everything).

Hopefully one day CD will be a thing of the past. All individuals will wear or present themselves as they are with no reservations or fear.

:hugs:
Danni

[sterling12]

I don't think you'll have much Luck trying to change The Minds of "Fundies." These folks can be very stiff-backed and refuse to consider anything that might break up their conception of how The World is supposed to run.

HOWEVER, you can throw a bit of a monkey wrench into their smug little concepts. Ask them if they believe it's OK for GF's to change their Birth Status. Is a FTM OK, like Elvis Presley's Daughter? If they think that's all right, we have a double standard! And I would certainly point that out to them.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Pipi]

I always had a dislike of religion, and this is one of the reasons for it: Religion is used as an excuse to accept things as they are, or as they appear to be and keeps people from changing the world they live in (hence the approval of religion by all the governments).

On occasions like this I refrain from detailed discussions on the matter and rather quote Bob Marley:

“Most people think Great God will come from the sky,
Take away ev'rything, and make ev'rybody feel high.
But if you know what life is worth, you would look for yours on earth,
And now you see the light, you stand up for right, yah.”

[Rachel Newark]

( Sterling12) Is a FTM OK, like Elvis Presley's Daughter? If they think that's all right, we have a double standard!

Well, the religious do seem to have a thing for double standards :-) and I'm mightily impressed how their god always hates and loves the same things they do.

However, are you sure about Lisa Marie ?? I know Chastity Bono - Daughter of Cher - is FtM, but LMP ?

Hugs

Rachel

[TerryTerri]

In my cubeville, I'm the only liberal and democrat. It is not uncommon for political conversations to emerge from our numerous strong personalities and opinions. Anyway, I have made it VERY clear, being a liberal, that I do not think homosexuality or transgenderism is wrong and that I feel sorry for the folks who will have to stand before God someday and answer to him (her) why they shuned homosexuals and transgenders because of the way God made them.
Someday I will be coming out and transitioning at work (when????). I wonder what my fellow cube denizens are going to think of me then. lol.
btw, although I usually do not agree with their political or sexual or religious stances, I work with a good hearted group of souls and tend to hope that when I finally come out and transition, I may open their mnd some. I am respected amongst my peers despite the differing views.

[Samantha Girl]

You did what you could in the given situation as many said. I totally understand feeling guilty, but give yourself a break ;) It's a tough balance

Maybe eventually you will tell them, but you are certainly not a bad person if you never do ;)

[Kate Simmons]

Well three against one isn't very good odds my friend. Especially since women are very good at "tag teaming" against one guy.:)

[erickka]

I don't think you'll have much Luck trying to change The Minds of "Fundies." These folks can be very stiff-backed and refuse to consider anything that might break up their conception of how The World is supposed to run.

HOWEVER, you can throw a bit of a monkey wrench into their smug little concepts. Ask them if they believe it's OK for GF's to change their Birth Status. Is a FTM OK, like Elvis Presley's Daughter? If they think that's all right, we have a double standard! And I would certainly point that out to them.

Peace and Love, Joanie

It seems to me that a lot of these so called "Christians" are both narrow minded and hypocritic. I think Joanie summed it up really nicely!

[LaurenB]

I agree with the other posters: You did the right thing by holding your tongue. You'll never win and they'll turn on you.

Just take some smug solace in the irony that there's a better than even chance that at least one of their husbands loves to put their clothes on when they are not looking. He was probably at home while you girls were having the conversation wearing a bra and panties and trying on her dresses....we know about these things.

[Emma England]

God asked me to crossdress as she wanted me to look pretty.

[AKAMichelle]

They are confusing cd'ing with being gay. I guess the drag queens have done us a huge disservice since that is all people know about cd'ers. We are so much more but people stop with the definition of us being gay. I guess that is why there are so many closeted cd'ers. They see this anger and disgust and they don't want to be the person that it is aimed at so they keep quiet.

It will take a long time before this pattern is changed. You don't need to apologize as all of us at one time or another have done the same thing. We keep quiet because we aren't ready for being outed either.

[Fab Karen]

If god hates gay people, why does he continue making them? Of course usually the response to logic is,"you're going to burn in hell!"

[PippaJ]

Im probably going in the wrong direction with this, but this is the sort of thing that makes me hate the world religions even more. Saying it was god's plan or that god will judge you is crap. I don't believe in a god but if i did i certainly wouldn't think that in its infinite ****ing wisdom it would be so petty as to condemn someone for whom they were attracted to. If it did then there would be a lot of innocent people, families of murders for example, burning in eternal fire or whatever.

[KarenCDFL]

Have you heard the term "Spitting in the wind"?

It is next to impossible to educate people like the co-workers you mentioned for the fact that don't want to be educated.

They like living in their own little selfish world and it makes them feel bigger and better to put down other cultures.

Don't take it personally because at that point the target was LGBT, you can replace the subject with Race, Religion, Tall, Short, etc.

It is all the same conversation with a different group to hate.

Anyone who is set in stone like that, don't even waste your breath.

[sterling12]

Sorry Rachel, got my two celebrity daughters mixed up!

What is happening, is that we see more and more people who are unhappy with their Birth Gender, and are trying to do something about it. I think these folks have always been around, it's just that lately more and more are actually making physical changes and "coming out."

I imagine The Gals at work can't envision People who are not going to "accept" what they are, what was "given to them." Too bad, when they put on makeup, they aren't accepting "what was given to them" either! Guess that sort of thinking upsets their minds, so they refuse to acknowledge a World with change it it!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[DonnaT]

As one female coworker said "God gave you this now it is your to deal with so just deal with it" The best I could come up with was well that is how some people deal with it by making themselves present on the outside as they feel on the inside. (about the best as I could do without outing myself)

Good answer.

You could also ask them why we have doctors. If God gave us a bad heart, cancer, etc., should we deal just by letting things run their course or should we deal by going and get fixed? Did Jesus not perform miracles of healing?

Also, ask them to show you in the Bible where it is taught that being trans is a sin.

The closest term in the Bible to transgender is eunuch

Isaiah 56:4
Matthew 19:12
Daniel 1:9
Acts 8:36-38

[Nigella]

This is not a religious thread, and this is not the religious forum, please keep your responses relevant to the OP and not the religious comments. If this thread continues on a religious theme it will be closed. Thank you

Nigella
Moderator

[Ellen James]

Keri -
I sympathize with your feeling that you should have been able to do more, though I'm not sure that anyone would have been able to break down the walls they had built up. I have very little experience directly with this situation having come only lately to recognizing myself as part of this community, but one thing life has taught me was that I didn't have to ram my head against every brick wall I saw and that I could pick my battles (even those doomed to be lost but that have to be fought).

I'm sure the opportunity will arise that will give you the chance to step up and be effective in doing so. Just last week I was at a conference (in drab) with colleagues who remarked upon another attendee whom they (and I) considered to be either cd or tg. Although everyone (as far as we could tell) accepted her as her - my colleagues raised their questions in my presence. I was quietly gratified to be able to explain to them that you address people in accordance with the way they present themselves, therefore she was clearly female. (Though I didn't mention how jealous I was of how good she looked in those skinny jeans and of her long hair!!)

[carhill2mn]

Hi Keri, I think that you did all that you reasonably could. I worked in downtown Mpls. for more than 30 years. Even though the Twin Cities area is quite "open minded" there are many people who are very prejudiced and set in their ways. You could never "win" an argument with them as their minds are made up ahead of time. All you can do is offer better, more informed information. They will probably not bother to consider another view point.
If, at some time, a question regarding you comes up, they may react better since they "know" you (or so they think)!

[Greymancd]

WHAT God will do is a good question. I wonder about it a lot since I was raised a fundamentalist pentecostal. I cannot live the life but seemingly I can never get away from it either. I am who I am I cannot fake a christian life I JUST live mine. I am a crossdresser and I love and loathe doing it but either feeling it does not change who I am. So I come back to as long as I am not hurting anyone and I hope I do not.

[Sara Jessica]

WHAT God will do is a good question. I wonder about it a lot since I was raised a fundamentalist pentecostal....

C'mon, please listen to the moderator and keep religion out of this. The original question was outstanding and has real world implications for many of us. I'd be lying if I said my skin doesn't grow cold whenever something remotely tg related comes up at work. There are things being said here which can help us a lot in the future.

BTW, Keri, you mentioned being prepared to be truthful in the context of the underdressing thing. Unless you are showing bra straps or nylon at the ankle, what you wear under your outer clothes is no one's business.

[Megan Thomas]

your post so reminds me of a two-faced woman I once had the displeasure of knowing. She often attended a bar frequented by crossdressers and befriended them, one of whom was know as Amanda. I well remember her privately stating how appropriate that name was, as in 'A-man-da', but spoken with disgust. She was pretty ugly to look at and obviously had just an ugly personality too. I could only pity her and warn the others of her opinions. I guess not everyone is accepting hey?

[christiek]

I dont blame you what so ever. You did what you had to do. As for the rest of it . . . Im gonna stay away from it. This is something I could go on about for hours on end in both a realistic sense with someone who can have a discussion about that sort of thing w/o getting worked up and in a sense of putting PEOPLE in their place. I'd hate to have the longest post in the history of this site and get banned for it. All I can say is GOOD LUCK w/ all that! Oh and if they have too much of a problem come find me :p

[kellyanne]

Q: " WHY is it ok in their world for women to be with women but be disgusted by men being with men."

A: odium figulinum ie : " trade rivalry "

[Kerigirl2009]

What I was saying about being prepared to answer truthfully is that I do go to work underdressed all the time and do not plan on changing thatanytime soon. And yes sometimes my nylons whow especially when I remove my shoes during my break or lunch.
I don't think I would mind at all if the people at work knew about me being a crossdresser, however I am not going to just tell them, they should be able to figure it out on their own and then if they want approach me or just wonder and think what they want.
If it went bad I could just leave and look for another job or maybe I would get a promotion as most of the corporate people in the company are of the female nature. LOL
I just wonder what will happen when they finally notice? HMMMM

LOve the responses, sorry about the religion aspect. next time I will omit this part, sort of keep that in the closet so to speak.