We've got a long way to go, baby (or NO, you can't try that on)

[Sara Jessica]

I found myself conducting somewhat of a social experiment yesterday, as unintentional as it was. I had some business to attend to across town and afterwards I had a little outing planned to meet up with my friend "D". Well as luck would have it, it was fairly warm here in SoCal and she spent the day moving some stuff from storage into her new home and was completely spent. I was actually relieved because I felt the same way, that my business went a bit longer than planned and all I could think about is getting back home. But I had spied a little boutique store in my travels so I thought I'd pay a visit, in guy mode.

Setting the scene, I had changed into casual guy wear, jeans and a long sleeved collarless shirt. Not an overtly masculine appearance but no question about presenting in guy-mode. Also, let the record reflect I had zero intention of trying anything on. I simply wanted to browse.

I walk in and two women were there, a SA (or owner?) and a customer. Immediately, the SA starts chatting me up in a positive way. I'm thinking this is cool as I browse the racks, seeing a store full of familar designers. Then I saw it, in the dress section there was this dressy pants outfit that totally struck a nostalgic nerve in that it was very similar to a long-gone-and-forgotten outfit I had back in the early-90's. It was red, the pants were dressy and flowy (is that a word?) while the top was sleeveless and seemed to have a lot going on. OK, that's it, I really want to try this on. So as the SA gushes on how lovely the outfit is and asks what size I'm looking for, I replied that I'm typically a size 8 in this kind of style and asked if it would be OK if I tried this on. Her reply was immediate and emphatic as if rehersed despite the uneasy look on her face...

"Oh no, we don't let men in the dressing rooms".

My reply? "That's fine, I just won't buy it." to which SA kept saying "I'm sure it would fit you" etc. as I put it back on the rack.

I browsed a bit more and then thought of something. I had my camera in my pocket so I took it out and showed her two pictures from my chip. The look on her face was almost as if she saw a ghost, probably better described as a sudden moment of clarity. "OMG, look at you, so feminine" she said, among other things. By this time the customer in the store had left and the SA invited me to try on the red outfit, over and over again to the point where she was practially begging. My response? Sorry, not a chance. I explained nicely & politely that I shop where I am made to feel welcome and her initial response revealed her true colours. I was very clear that she lost a sale.

When all was said and done, I completely misread the situation. It happens, and I'm not discouraged. Perhaps the SA will respond different should another TG individual someday follow in my wake. In the meantime, this demonstrates that despite those wonderful niches of acceptance we often experience, we have such a long way to go when it comes to acceptance by society at large.

[kimdl93]

I understand your reaction...but I'm a push over. I would have given in and tried on that outfit.

[suchacutie]

I'm sure that this SA will now figure out a way to allow "men" into the dressing rooms in an appropriate way.

But this brings up a point, doesn't it. In stores that cater to both genders there really is not an issue. I can take women's clothes into the men's dressing room and even if I get some looks, that's all there is. However, in stores that were initially designed by women for women, there isn't this accomodation, and it's clear that they really hadn't thought about it.

So, here we are taking the first steps of educating SAs that there will be those identifying as males needing to use a dressing room if there is to be a sale. Once we get to the point where it's common for SAs to know this, I'm sure the next step will be be that even single-gender boutiques will be designed with us in mind!

slow but steady progress :)

tina

[kellycan27]

While I do understand your frustration, sounds to me like you may have caught her off guard. She did try and make amens by offering to let you try on the outfit. If we expect people to be tolerant of us... shouldn't we tolerant of them. Maybe give them a second chance instead of getting our panties in a bunch and try to teach them a "lesson" ? It was a lose lose for both of you. She lost a sale, and you lost an outfit. A little patience on your part could not only have resulted in you finding a place to shop,getting a cute new outfit, and her getting a little education about crossdressers. :sad:
You are right... we do have a long way to go, but we won't get far if we are rigid.

Kel

[AKAMichelle]

You are forgetting something. She had a customer in the store and you weren't presenting as a woman. So she didn't want other women to feel threaten by a male in the dressing room. I think you are over reacting somewhat. The SA was caught off guard and she was just trying to make it up to you by offering to let you try on the item after the customer left. I do understand how you feel being prevented from trying on the outfit.

You have to look at this from a different perspective. Would you like your wife or daughter to be in the dressing room trying on clothes and any man could come back there with them?

Regardless of the outcome, the SA will come up with a better solution next time this happens.

[dilane]

Sara,

I think that was spiteful. The education took place when she saw the picture, her eyes got big, and thereby gained respect for you.

Remember, the public has been conditioned for umpteen years that we are psychos and sickos, and the daytime shows often reinforce that fact. You showed her how a normal looking and decent acting guy could be a great looking woman.

It's like you couldn't resist sticking it to her. Is that positive PR?

-- Diane

[Prissy Linda]

Totally agree with Kelly.

[Inna]

I think our expectations of world bending to our needs is somewhat unrealistic. I often find the attitude we have towards rejection or misunderstanding is rigid and sort of way, unforgiving, it is almost as trying to be so womanly we can't handle a rejection like woman would but stand our ground exactly as male ego! Thank you Sara for posting this story and your own feeling of some regret of not being softer and more forgiving about it, I believe we should focus our attention on just that, becoming more forgiving and giving just like majority of woman are.

[Chickhe]

I don't understand, all dressing rooms are partitioned...I mean one customer does want to see another changing anyways. So I don't get the big deal... but I guess it is because the business thinks their majority of female customers would not like it... so I think the pictures was a good idea, it was like asking, if I look like a female would it be okay? ...in other words, if I blend in an don't cause a disruption, it would be fine. I think the message was clear and not buying is your choice, but we have to remember, we are guests in the woman's world and if we want them to ask us to stay we should show some respect for the existing rules even if they are not exactly correct.

[tanyalynn51]

I agree with everyone who feels she had learned a lesson. Positive reinforcement would have happened if you had let her help her, and if nothing else, at least one more person would be on our side.

[Nigella]

If the changing rooms were specifically for females and there were provisions for males, then the SA would be within her rights to refuse access to the female changing area, especially as you were presenting male.

If there are no facilities available for males to change, unless this store is specifically and exclusivily for females, then the SA may be in breach of equality laws by refusing a male access to the changing room.

As a non op TS my response immediately would have been "but I'm not male, I am female, or to be more precise a TS". If there had been a further refusal then I would not have hesitated, I would have advised them that they had lost a sale this time, then walked out of the store.

[DonnaT]

I agree with everyone who feels she had learned a lesson. Positive reinforcement would have happened if you had let her help her, and if nothing else, at least one more person would be on our side.

Agreed!

But hey, who wants to wear pants (trousers) anyway? ;)

[TxKimberly]

Frankly I'm with Sara,

Either we are welcome and accepted customers or we aint. How would the African Americans have reacted and felt had they been told back in the 50's "Sure you can try that on - right AFTER all of my valued and important clients leave." That's just a hop-skip-jump from "Sure you can ride the bus, as long as you sit in the back where we don't have to see ya'!"

The hell you say!

Sara, I think you did the right thing, now go give your money to someone that wants you and welcomes you all of the time, NOT just when the people she values leaves.

[AllieSF]

I also agree with Sara. I do understand the other's viewpoint. However, we were not there, Sara was polite and made a very valid point, reinforced by Kimberly's comparison, which is valid and appropriate. Remember that the SA told Sara to buy it, take it home because she was sure it would fit. This lady will now think twice about losing a sale, especially since it is a small shop that in these rough economic times needs business. The issue with dressing rooms is interesting. However, when male and females of all ages have no problem sharing them in a lot of mainstream stores, why should they not do the same in smaller stores. actually, it is not the customer but the store owner's that set the policy, which should be open for one and all!

[Kathi Lake]

I can see both sides of the coin.

On one side, the SA had a need and a desire to protect her clientele - whether partitioned or not, a man in the dressing room can be an emotional experience for a woman. It's not what would happen, but what could happen.

On the other hand, people must learn to disassociate us from the common mythos of a "molesting pervert." If it takes some lost sales to get it through their heads, then so be it. Sara, I know that there are many boutiques where you are not only welcome, but treasured. Shop there.

Kathi

[Sara Jessica]

Wow, look at the diversity in the replies...thank you to everyone! This clearly brought up some deeper issues which I will try to address in general.

But first of all, I have to thank Kelly, Michelle and Diane for being so matter of fact with your perspective...and for your honesty. I really do appreciate that but let me try to convey something that perhaps didn't come across in the words upon the screen...


"Oh no, we don't let men in the dressing rooms".

Very matter of fact in every way, shape and form. What I might not be conveying so well is the coldness of the delivery. There was no "gee, can you wait until this customer leaves" or anything else. Trust me, I am first in line when it comes to helping to educate anyone who will listen about the TG experience, especially when it comes to our public interactions. My reaction had nothing to do with spite. It had everything to do with the fact the shopkeeper made it clear that my kind of business wasn't welcome. Kimberly absolutely nailed it, that I will spend my money where it is absolutely welcome.

As for the opportunity to educate, that's what showing her the two pictures was all about. I wanted to show (as Diane so aptly put it) that a normal looking and decent acting guy could be a great looking woman. That's really where the lesson ended. It wasn't all about my thinking "if I show her my other side, she'll let me try on the outfit" or anything like that. The SA's singing of another tune was indicative of understanding of some understanding on her part but it came across like desperation to make a sale at that point.

Like I said before, there are a bunch of other issues which are totally fair game to be discussed here....our roles and responsibilities as customers, as those who can help educate others, how we impact other customers regardless of our presentation, whether it is reasonable for us to expect to use fitting rooms, etc. I have said elsewhere that I rarely will use a fitting room like this in guy mode yet on the opposite end of the viewpoint, there are others who profess that it is our absolute right to do so. Whatever one chooses on their path, part of my point was that we can run into resistance at so many turns which really should be of no surprise to anyone.

[JulieC]

I was very clear that she lost a sale.

...and...


we have such a long way to go when it comes to acceptance by society at large.

And one of the ways in which we nudge the ball forward is doing exactly what you did; making it clear that subacceptable behavior will not be treated kindly. Either respect us, or you won't have our business.

[joandher]

"Oh no, we don't let men in the dressing rooms".

THE WORD BEING "ROOMS" THERE IS ALSO A SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION ACT TO STOP THINGS LIKE THIS OCCURRING,
IN MY HUMBLE OPINION YOU WERE QUITE RIGHT

:hugs:

J-JAY

[Blaire]

The SA was put in an awkward situation, which she may or may not have been prepared for. The customer having left before the offer may or may not have been coincidence. Going from "no men allowed" to "please go ahead" sounds like a pretty good recovery by the SA.

Frankly, were I her, I would ended the day wondering what kind of jackass stunt this was, and why it was her turn to have her chain jerked. No question it was lose lose.

[dilane]

Thanks for not getting offended, Sara.

I see your logic, but still respectfully disagree here.

I propose our own little beer summit (or wine summit!) next time you come up to LA. I can usually get out most afternoons or evenings.

Regards,

Diane

[crossdrezzer1]

do what i do,,just email the owner,,manager ect and explain why they wont see you again and the loss of a sale and more important the lost of others since we all know of that store not being cd friendly,,, dont want the sales lady to get in trouble but would like her to have a class on special need clients like ourselfs

[DaphneGrey]

I wouldn't have let you use the dressing room either. I think you are being silly and doing our community no favors!

[Kathi Lake]

What?! Can you explain your position and thoughts a bit more, Daphne?

Kathi

[Danni Bear]

I wouldn't have let you use the dressing room either. I think you are being silly and doing our community no favors!


I agree with Kath. why do you feel that way Daphne?

Danni

[Leslie Langford]

Sara,

As some others here have said, I also can see both sides of this issue. Yes, our money should be as green as any other GG customer's when it comes to buying women's clothes, and yes, it is not our fault that virtually no women's' clothing store has provisions for "male" fitting rooms on the off-chance that one of us CDer's might want to come in and make a purchase there. And yet, other "minorities" do get consideration for their special needs in such instances - witness the almost universal legal requirement to provide designated parking spots, ramp access to public buildings, and specially outfitted washrooms for handicapped individuals. And what about peanut allergy sufferers and the accommodations that are expected of 99% of the rest of the population who do not suffer from this affliction to ensure their safety and well-being? Are we crossdressers not entitled to a similar level of respect for our needs - especially since we are also paying for our own way in the process? But in all fairness, the SA did reverse her position when she realized that you were not just yanking her chain by requesting the use of a fitting room and when there was no longer a risk of you possibly unsettling a GG customer by your presence there.

But what really rankles me here is the double standard that exists when it comes to fitting rooms. I can't begin to count the number of times when I have been in a men's fitting room trying on men's clothes (yeah, harsh reality dictates that I also have to buy guy clothes from time to time :doh::sad:) and have seen women (especially teen-aged girls) walk in nonchalantly as if they owned the place to try on men's' jeans or the like after having browsed for their selections in that section. And as we all know, GG's love their "menswear", and sometimes skip the watered-down feminized versions and just go for the real deal. Of course, they are not crossdressers in society's eyes when they do that whereas we are, but I digress...:sad:.

Women seem to have a pronounced sense of entitlement when it comes to such things, and I have begun to adopt the same attitude regarding my right to try on women's' clothes before I buy - whether en femme, or in drab. And don't even get me started on those women who think nothing of barging into the men's room when the line-ups for the women's' washrooms become too long for their liking...

[Sara Jessica]

...picking up on my earlier reply, I don't want to leave out those who were supportive of my POV, thanks so much to each of you as well :).

No, this wasn't an Oscar acceptance speech, it's just acknowledging how much I value all of the responses on both sides of the issue.

Now back to our regular programming...


Thanks for not getting offended, Sara.

I see your logic, but still respectfully disagree here.

I propose our own little beer summit (or wine summit!) next time you come up to LA. I can usually get out most afternoons or evenings.

Regards,

Diane

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be up your way on Monday...send me a PM if you're available. I've become quite the fan of PF Chang's awesome happy hour!!!

...but in the meantime, going back to what you said earlier...


Remember, the public has been conditioned for umpteen years that we are psychos and sickos, and the daytime shows often reinforce that fact.


That's actually an awesome point that some others have also alluded to. It's part of the reason I prefer not to use fitting rooms in guy mode, and why under no circumstance would you ever find me using a fitting room in guy mode in a lingere store (an entirely different conversation that played out sometime a while back). But again, I am not here to suggest that we don't do these things, peeps will go the way they go despite the best intended advice. It's just that for me, I do all I can to avoid the creepy factor, to try not to perpetuate that stereotype that we are sickos. No matter how I look in guy mode, how I might have zero nervousnes to enhance the creepy factor, the fact of the matter remains, I'm a guy looking to try on women's clothing in fitting rooms designated for women. Some natal women are going to find that offensive/creepy/whatever no matter what.


I can see both sides of the coin.

On one side, the SA had a need and a desire to protect her clientele - whether partitioned or not, a man in the dressing room can be an emotional experience for a woman. It's not what would happen, but what could happen.

On the other hand, people must learn to disassociate us from the common mythos of a "molesting pervert." If it takes some lost sales to get it through their heads, then so be it. Sara, I know that there are many boutiques where you are not only welcome, but treasured. Shop there.

Kathi

I see both sides of the coin as well Kathi which is why I took zero offense at the critical points which were made. It's a side of the whole thing that I didn't really forsee.

BTW, I meant to "jinx" you earlier but my lunch bell had already rung by the time I was finished with my reply.


...And yet, other "minorities" do get consideration for their special needs in such instances - witness the almost universal legal requirement to provide designated parking spots, ramp access to public buildings, and specially outfitted washrooms for handicapped individuals...

Such a thoughtful reply Leslie which reminded me of a previous misconception I had. A while back, I told a gg friend that I often felt like I was part of the last minority group where laughter and ridicule is not only still commonplace but also somehow socially acceptable. She then knocked me down a few pegs by pointing out that her boss is a dwarf, try that one for the public ridicule factor. As you could imagine, I stood corrected.


I wouldn't have let you use the dressing room either. I think you are being silly and doing our community no favors!

I agree with the others, please explain yourself. There's no swooping in here to lay down a line like this without saying something, hopefully meaningful, to back yourself up.

[sandra-leigh]

Some recent examples of what I've been faced with:


Thursday, I visited a boutique leased out of a major department store; picked out an expensive dress I wanted to try on. The SA told me I would have to wait until the women in the dressing rooms were finished. Tap, tap, fidget, tap, fidget. They made me wait at least 20 minutes before letting me go in, and I think my linen closet is bigger than the room I was eventually directed to. Why I put up with it, I'm sure I don't know.

A short time later and 20 feet away at a different leased boutique, the SA called through the fitting room door to find out how the sizes were. When I told her that the dress made me bulge at places I didn't want to bulge, and didn't bulge at places that I did want to bulge, the SA paused for a second, and said, "Oh. Would you like to try on a different style then?" Yeah, sure, just pick one out at random and hand it in to me, would ya?

About 10 days ago, at a (completely different) boutique, I had some clothes picked out and was ready to try things on. An older mother and daughter were in the fitting rooms trying something on. Now, I know from past experience that the store has half a dozen fitting cubicles, but the store owner told me "You can take those in when they are finished in there" -- implicitly telling me that because I was a guy, I should wait until the real women were out of the change area. Now, what kind of person would do that?


What we gotta do for our dressing sometimes! :bovered::dammit:

:edit:

Okay, okay, okay, alright then:


The boutique that made me wait so long only had two small change cubicles, and the women ahead of me spent a long time deciding what they wanted. There wasn't any available space earlier, and I was shown in while the women were still paying. The SA had no problem dealing with me. The only real mistake she made was that when I asked about whether the back seemed tight, she said it all looked fine; when I said it was pulling a bit, she went and checked for the next size up, picking the correct size for me out of her memory; when I showed her the bigger size on, she mentioned that the smaller size was a bit tight in the bust. The back actually did look fine on the smaller size: it just pulled a bit uncomfortably (but probably wearable.) I kinda liked the emphasis the smaller size gave the bust. So the mistake was to be willing to sell me the smaller dress without pointing out the bust issue immediately, going for the likely sale instead of risking the possibility of losing the sale by suggesting a size that they might not have happened to had in stock.

The second boutique had huge change rooms, and as soon as I got to within 15 feet of SA while holding some items, she immediately asked if I would like to try them on, and had no issues in showing some women into the change area after I was already in (she wasn't really supposed to do that, as they wanted to try clothes from outside her jurisdiction, but the closest open change room was quite a distance away.) Yes, she did make the semi-lame suggestion about trying on some other style of dress, but when I got out and was asking her about jeans, she knew her stock and knew what was likely to be forthcoming.

The boutique that asked me to wait until the women were out of the changing area even though there were lots of free cubicles: the mother was in her 80's and had mobility difficulties, and the daughter wasn't young either. I sat down to wait when I saw them heading towards the changing area; the owner didn't make the comment until I had already been voluntarily been waiting several minutes. I didn't voluntarily sit down to wait "out of deference to the delicate sensibilities of female customers": I sat down to wait because I have some experience with elderly people with mobility difficulties and I figured that chances were fair that they would end up with their cubicle door open. As to what kind of person the owner is: the owner had me take my purchases that day without paying for them because she didn't know at the time what "friends and regular customers" discount level I should be given -- which reminds me that I need to go in and pay.


:spank: :wedgie:

[lingerieLiz]

This week I was at two of a national department stores' locations. At one there was no signs about who could enter and most of the time no SA to count what was going in or out.

At the other there was a sign "No gentlemen ... to enter. I will say the men's dressing room had a sign that said "No women ... to enter". Both stores are being managed by the same manager, go figure.

Before we condemn the SA some stores have put it in not to stop CD'ers from trying on clothes, but to stop peeping and other perverted acts. A friend who manages a store has told me about several incidents he has had. He doesn't have a problem with the CD/TG community but can't tell us from the bad guys.

I've purchased and tried on clothes and lingerie all over the country and found that every store has different policies even with chains. Even within departments in chains. Sometimes it is the SA who takes it upon herself to set policy. I have found that once the SA's know you, many will bend the rules even in the lingerie department. I've tried on lingerie at a major store with a fitting room full of women in other cubicles knowing I was there and none seemed to care. I've also seen women evacuate the area as I was looking at bras.

There is just no easy answer.

[lingerieLiz]

...It's part of the reason I prefer not to use fitting rooms in guy mode, and why under no circumstance would you ever find me using a fitting room in guy mode in a lingere store (an entirely different conversation that played out sometime a while back). But again, I am not here to suggest that we don't do these things, peeps will go the way they go despite the best intended advice. It's just that for me, I do all I can to avoid the creepy factor, to try not to perpetuate that stereotype that we are sickos. No matter how I look in guy mode, how I might have zero nervousnes to enhance the creepy factor, the fact of the matter remains, I'm a guy looking to try on women's clothing in fitting rooms designated for women. Some natal women are going to find that offensive/creepy/whatever no matter what.

Sara, are you suggesting that walking into a lingerie department or store in guy mode and being honest that the lingerie is for you and yes it would help to try it on to be sure it fits is more "peeps" than getting dressed and going to the same department or store? I have a news flash for you, the "peeps" show up in all the departments. From my experience of working in a major store and friends in the business today perverts show up in every department.

[Aaron Zwidling]

Sara
I can see both sides of the argument on this issue as well, but won't go into specifics. Others have already done a fine job of defending both sides of the argument. What I don't get is why you stayed in the store. Reading through your letter it sounds like you had what you described as a cold response, this response causing you to decide to not buy anything from the store (which is perfectly fine and a view I subsribe to). According to your letter though you spent more time in the store, continued to browse through their stock, showed the SA your pictures etc. So on the one hand you felt unwelcome in the store, but on the other hand didn't leave immediately. Presumably by continuing to browse through the store you were giving the SA the impression you might buy after all, but from your own words you had no intention of buying. Why the disconnect?

[Sara Jessica]

Some recent examples of what I've been faced with...

Excellent examples Sandra, including the addition of later details which changes the entire context of what you originally described.


Before we condemn the SA some stores have put it in not to stop CD'ers from trying on clothes, but to stop peeping and other perverted acts. A friend who manages a store has told me about several incidents he has had. He doesn't have a problem with the CD/TG community but can't tell us from the bad guys.

Very outstanding example of why this whole thing is likely to continue to be an uphill battle.


Sara, are you suggesting that walking into a lingerie department or store in guy mode and being honest that the lingerie is for you and yes it would help to try it on to be sure it fits is more "peeps" than getting dressed and going to the same department or store? I have a news flash for you, the "peeps" show up in all the departments. From my experience of working in a major store and friends in the business today perverts show up in every department.

Hold on, disconnect here. "Peeps" is a word I use sometimes for "people" (ok, and sometimes peep toe heels). Bad choice of words on my part in this discussion.


Sara
I can see both sides of the argument on this issue as well, but won't go into specifics. Others have already done a fine job of defending both sides of the argument. What I don't get is why you stayed in the store. Reading through your letter it sounds like you had what you described as a cold response, this response causing you to decide to not buy anything from the store (which is perfectly fine and a view I subsribe to). According to your letter though you spent more time in the store, continued to browse through their stock, showed the SA your pictures etc. So on the one hand you felt unwelcome in the store, but on the other hand didn't leave immediately. Presumably by continuing to browse through the store you were giving the SA the impression you might buy after all, but from your own words you had no intention of buying. Why the disconnect?

Good point Aaron. Let's see if more detail helps to clarify what took place.

The store from what I remember was laid out with at least a dozen circular racks that seemed to be organized haphazardly by color, a bit by style. The walls were also lined with merchandise. There wasn't a lot of rhyme or reason to what they stocked. Everything was new and had tags but interestingly, a lot of the tags were recognizable as being from places such as Macy's and Bloomingdales.

So when I first walked in, I perused about four racks until I spied the red outfit on a dress rack which was along one of the walls in the store. The time after the comment and when I departed the store couldn't have been more than 4 or 5 minutes. Put yourself in such a situation, my first impression was "wow, I didn't expect that response" so being taken aback as I was, it took me a moment to process what had happened. In other words, I didn't just throw my hands up and storm out in a tizzy. So I put the red outfit back and briefly glossed over another rack or two at the most which is when I thought of showing her the pictures.


There is just no easy answer.

Couldn't be more true.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I replied that I'm typically a size 8 in this kind of style

Skinny B****! I hate you! Size 8! I'm going to cry over a pint of Haagen-Dazs :-)



and asked if it would be OK if I tried this on. Her reply was immediate and emphatic as if rehersed despite the uneasy look on her face...

"Oh no, we don't let men in the dressing rooms".

That would have got an immediate "What did you say?" from me.



My reply? "That's fine, I just won't buy it." to which SA kept saying "I'm sure it would fit you" etc. as I put it back on the rack.

I would have been a touch more pro-active, I would have pulled out the debit card/cash and said, using my "dealing with the clueless voice": "You know, this is/represents the green pieces of paper called money. You want to separate me from my money and nowadays, getting as much of my money as you can is something you want to do. However, if I can't try things on, you won't get my green pieces of paper. You see, I got tired of the buy, take home, try on and return routine. It's annoying and it costs me more money and time that way. If I try something on, find that it fits and is flattering, you are much more likely to get my green pieces of paper. Then I have my "pretty" and you get my pretty green pieces of paper and we both are happy."


I had my camera in my pocket so I took it out and showed her two pictures from my chip.

Referring to flash digital storage media as "chips" makes baby geeks cry. :-)


The look on her face was almost as if she saw a ghost, probably better described as a sudden moment of clarity. "OMG, look at you, so feminine" she said, among other things. By this time the customer in the store had left and the SA invited me to try on the red outfit, over and over again to the point where she was practially begging.

When confronted with the reality of a trans-fashionista, she realized that she had blown it. Her way of making amends


My response? Sorry, not a chance. I explained nicely & politely that I shop where I am made to feel welcome and her initial response revealed her true colours. I was very clear that she lost a sale.

Yep. That was the right thing to do, that way the next time a transperson in male mode shops there she might actually think that they could be a fashionista as well, and perhaps treat them better.


I wouldn't have let you use the dressing room either. I think you are being silly and doing our community no favors!

I think you should explain your reasoning.



Before we condemn the SA some stores have put it in not to stop CD'ers from trying on clothes, but to stop peeping and other perverted acts. A friend who manages a store has told me about several incidents he has had. He doesn't have a problem with the CD/TG community but can't tell us from the bad guys.

Piffle! The kind of guys who would peep are the kind of guys who tend to be misogynists/chauvinists and would consider being thought of as a CD/TG or dressing in women's clothes demeaning, since they don't consider women their equals. They'd never take clothes to the counter and ask for a dressing room. Much more likely they'd just try to sneak in. Easy to tell them from us, even without the fact that many CD's who would wish to try things on in public have done "mini-body-mods" like having longer hair, polished nails, tweezed eyebrows, pierced ears, etc, or might be wearing some women's clothing in guy mode.

Veronica

[Alice Torn]

I can understand your initial frustration, but, after some education, and communication, I[it sounds like she changed her view. Maybe you can return, sometime, she'll remember you, show her a few more photos, ask again, and she will let you try on again. I agree with Michelle.

[Kerrie Sifton]

As she did try to accomodate you after realizing that you might look fabulous in the outfit, maybe a revisit to the site might make her more feel that her efforts were acceptable. And it might be marvelous for you to have that retro red outfit with the flowing pants. I have been looking for one too, but alas I am not an 8....

[Olivia2]

Piffle! The kind of guys who would peep are the kind of guys who tend to be misogynists/chauvinists and would consider being thought of as a CD/TG or dressing in women's clothes demeaning, since they don't consider women their equals. They'd never take clothes to the counter and ask for a dressing room. Much more likely they'd just try to sneak in.

Veronica, careful here. You are at risk of stereotyping a group of people in the same way many of us have been stereotyped. Having facilitated some groups with people who've admitted to the above kind of behavior, they come in many stripes and colors and have diverse styles and personalities.

[Sara Jessica]

(everything Veronica said)

You absolutely crack me up Veronica. It was so hard reading this the first time the other day when I was just waiting for "what are you laughing at" from across the room!!!


As she did try to accomodate you after realizing that you might look fabulous in the outfit, maybe a revisit to the site might make her more feel that her efforts were acceptable. And it might be marvelous for you to have that retro red outfit with the flowing pants. I have been looking for one too, but alas I am not an 8....

They did have a 12 as well...but wait, you're in Canada. Quite a trip for one outfit ;).


Veronica, careful here. You are at risk of stereotyping a group of people in the same way many of us have been stereotyped. Having facilitated some groups with people who've admitted to the above kind of behavior, they come in many stripes and colors and have diverse styles and personalities.

Not sure what to make of this. Yes, stereotyping isn't always the best thing to do but when we're talking about poor behavior that can actually harm others, I'm not seeing too much problem painting it with a broad brush.

[Jenny Doolittle]

It makes me wonder how she would have accepted you dressed(or other girls that may not be as passable as yourself), or for that matter, what about a genetic woman that may not be a fashion plate.

I applaud you for trying to teach the S/A that we all are people and have feelings.

[noeleena]

Hi,
How many in this discussion are women. not many i m thinking .
& how many would go up to the sales lady & say hi . im a crossdresser would you mind if i tryed on some clothes . not many i bet.


Your talking about being accepted then why not be open in the first place . are the sale ladys going to be bothered . most , no.

& as some have said men have been in the stores only for one thing . & thats not what i would wont ....& why are they there , not buying clothes . thats for sure.

when i take our granddaughter Dejarn in to the shops i dont expect men to be looking at me or Dejarn they should not be there .

Im a woman in a womans shop & some times we dont wont or need men around ,

... a point thats being over looked..... remember you are men not women so please respect that miner detail ,you wont respect then give it , it goes both ways,

When i ask for help i expect an other women to pop her head around the corner & say that looks good or not standing there with nothing on trying bras or what ever. i had a sales lady help me try on some bras because i could not lift my arms up no probs. id just had my surgery,


If you come in , as dressed as female or / women then act like one & maybe you can be accepted in to our space just dont flunt it . as said lookers with roving eyes. no thanks,

Iv seen some dressers & why wont they be accepted . i think you know why. because theres nothing about them that says female, & that does not bode well for others who are trying to be female & live as female.

The need is to be a little more in tune with women in the real world .
I dont know about those of you here if you do this .

im well known in all the shops i go in to & has been like that for years. difference is i get to know people may be i come from a different set of understanding people & in how i engage with people how i deal with people ,
I never had problems when i was shoping for Jos & later for my self because i made the point of getting to know the sales ladys . or others as was needed.

One of the biggest problems the many men have is not being sensitive
to how women think & feel hence the reason of much that has been talked about here, you know barge in do what you wont to do & no care for any one else so long as youv got what you wont. & then leave the mess behind .
Iv seen this enough times now & sad to say from some dressers. & its no wonder women are not accepting .

...noeleena...

[Ellen Ross]

First, I too agree with Sara. I think you handled the situation perfectly. When this has happened to me I just left without any explaination. I will take this and use it as an example the next time it happens.


Sara,

... I can't begin to count the number of times when I have been in a men's fitting room trying on men's clothes (yeah, harsh reality dictates that I also have to buy guy clothes from time to time :doh::sad:) and have seen women (especially teen-aged girls) walk in nonchalantly as if they owned the place to try on men's' jeans or the like after having browsed for their selections in that section. And as we all know, GG's love their "menswear", and sometimes skip the watered-down feminized versions and just go for the real deal. Of course, they are not crossdressers in society's eyes when they do that whereas we are, ...

And, Leslie, you are so right on. While shopping at a large department store I ask the SA for a room to try on a pile of items in my hnds. After waiting until she could figure out how to do that from her manager who was not arround, she asked if I wouldn't mind using the men's dressing room on the second floor. I knew she really did want to help me and had put in some effort, so I took the trip upstairs. As I walked in there were more women then men. And a group of 5 or so women commented that I was in the wrong place to try on clothes, and suggested I go to the gay section. It was all I could do to continue past them and get to a room to hide. That was a year ago. Next time, thanks to this site, I will handle it differently.

Ellen

[Olivia2]

Not sure what to make of this. Yes, stereotyping isn't always the best thing to do but when we're talking about poor behavior that can actually harm others, I'm not seeing too much problem painting it with a broad brush.

Sara,

I should have used the word generalizing rather than stereotyping and it was my perception that a broad brush was not used in Veronica's statement but rather a narrow one. I don't want to veer away from the real point of the this thread but simply was trying to point out that "perverts" and "peepers" don't always show obvious signs and may try to carry out their activities in many ways. Therefore, clothing stores, etc. may err on the side of caution to protect their clients. In my opinion, from what you described and given the size of the store, they shouldn't have perceived you as a threat, even before you showed them the pictures. Unfortunately, people make judgments and take action based on generalization perpetuated by our culture.

Olivia

[kellycan27]

Women seem to have a pronounced sense of entitlement when it comes to such things, and I have begun to adopt the same attitude regarding my right to try on women's' clothes before I buy - whether en femme, or in drab. And don't even get me started on those women who think nothing of barging into the men's room when the line-ups for the women's' washrooms become too long for their liking...

Who's fault do you suppose that is? Men. That's who! Men put wemon on a pedestal, and cater to the so called "weaker sex", and now you want to get pissed off because wemon use it to their advantage? Your tighty whities are showing! :heehee:

[AllieSF]

Noelena, I have to disagree with you regarding that men should not be in a woman's store. Why not? I have bought womens and girls clothes for my wife, daughter and girlfriends for too many years to think about (I am hat old!) and have every right to be in that store looking around. Just because a man is in a woman's store or section of a larger store does not mean he in any way that he is there to molest a woman nor peak in changing room. That type of negative activity is actually it is very rare when compared to the total number of people, men included who go into the stores. He could be there looking for a gift for someone or on an errand for his SO. Sara Jessica and the rest of us MtF dressers have every right to be in that same type of store to look around and maybe purchase something that we like for ourselves. We do not need to go in dressed as a woman either. I do understand that a smaller store may want to accommodate a male to try on woman's clothes by waiting until there are less woman in the changing area. However, even that "allowance" to their apprehensions can be argued as unnecessary.

[lingerieLiz]

Well said AllieSF. I'm not going to give a lecture on why women can wear men's clothing, but it is perfectly accepted for women to go into the mens department and buy/try anything in there. Why should it be any different for men?

FtM crossdressers are accepted without much to do about it. One of the stores that I shop in the woman manager wears only men's clothing, has a man's hair cut, glases, shoes etc. Yet if a MtF CD would not be allowed to work there.

[lingerieLiz]

As for perverts or people who do things that are not acceptable in public. I misunderstood what Sara meant by peeps. They are not just in the women's section. While they are few compared to the number of shoppers, it can be unsettling for SAs faced with the incident. I've heard reports from every department in stores, from lingerie to hardware. I guess it is like emergency rooms, CDs are the least of the issues they deal with.

When I shop I'm usually in drab. I may be wearing women's clothes, slacks and blouse, but I look like a guy. I'm real easy going and talk to everyone. I'm also very comfortable with who and what I am. I don't make a big deal of what I'm there for, but have no problem telling the clerks. Most of them are more than happy to wait on me and try to be accommodating. Once in a while I will notice a woman who is not comfortable with me there, but the vast majority could care less. Their husband or boyfriend is usually more uncomfortable. They will stare, but never say anything.

[Leslie Langford]

Who's fault do you suppose that is? Men. That's who! Men put wemon on a pedestal, and cater to the so called "weaker sex", and now you want to get pissed off because wemon use it to their advantage? Your tighty whities are showing! :heehee:

My "tighty whities" are just fine, thank you very much, and while I appreciate your concern about them, they are hardly tied up in a knot over this.

Far from being "pissed" over this behavior by GG's, I'm adopting a 'tude that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So if GG's feel entitled to enter my world when it comes to using men's fitting rooms, I now use women's fitting rooms with the same sense of entitlement and "What'choo talkin' 'bout (lookin' at), Willis" attitude popularized by Gary Coleman on the old "Diff'rent Strokes" television show.

Capice?

[kellycan27]

So I am a business owner, and I am faced with the the possibility of alienating my female clientele by allowing men into their dressing room, or I can alienate the the odd cder who happens to drop by my business once every so often? Sorry, men aren't allowed in the lady's dressing rooms.:heehee:

[Danni Bear]

Kelly, I have to agree with you in regards to small shop or botiques that don't have space . But for large chains that have the room and more private dressing area then yes. I won't even let my husband who is post-op ts in dressing rooms with me.Why tempt him to look around?

Danni

[sandra-leigh]

So I am a business owner, and I am faced with the the possibility of alienating my female clientele by allowing men into their dressing room, or I can alienate the the odd cder who happens to drop by my business once every so often? Sorry, men aren't allowed in the lady's dressing rooms.:heehee:

In Canada at least, that's the wrong answer. If the dressing rooms are not a common area where women would routinely expect the possibility of seeing each other undressed, then under the Canada Charter of Rights and Freedoms, you would have to be able to establish that there was a substantial reason why they could not be mixed, and you would have to apply for a specific exemption for that purpose. Potential discomfort of the female clients would not be an accepted reason for a waiver: there is no Right to not be uncomfortable. In the case of individual change rooms that provide privacy and which do not have any substantial specialized fitting equipment, it would be fairly unlikely that a Canadian court would grant an exemption.


Re-read your argument and substitute "white" for "female" and "black" for "cd'er". If the result is obviously socially unacceptable under current understandings of civil rights, then it would very likely be unacceptable under Canadian law.

[kellycan27]

My "tighty whities" are just fine, thank you very much, and while I appreciate your concern about them, they are hardly tied up in a knot over this.

Far from being "pissed" over this behavior by GG's, I'm adopting a 'tude that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So if GG's feel entitled to enter my world when it comes to using men's fitting rooms, I now use women's fitting rooms with the same sense of entitlement and "What'choo talkin' 'bout (lookin' at), Willis" attitude popularized by Gary Coleman on the old "Diff'rent Strokes" television show.

Capice?

Am I safe to assume that your sense of what's good for the goose is good for the gander applies to using the lady's room in the same fashion when in drab?

[Danni Bear]

Kelly,
the gander doesn't know whats good for him. We have to tell him.

Danni

[ReineD]

Sara, I'd like to propose a different scenario.

When you first asked if you could try on the outfit, the SA likely had NO IDEA that you are TG. You were in guy mode and you hadn't yet showed her your pictures. I know it seems like a no brainer to those of us who hang out here all the time, but believe it or not, most people don't automatically think "TG" when presented with a male who wants to go into the ladies rooms. What comes to mind instead, is the ubiquitous fear that most females experience around potentially unsafe situations involving men, the same fear that makes a woman uneasy about walking out alone at night. Trust me on this. The fear is real, and it is there because of centuries of men having had the upper hand on women physically, psychologically, and legally.

Also, here are some rape statistics: http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/statistics.html

91% of victims are female, 9% are male, with 99% of rapists being male. There are good reasons for women feeling uneasy about having men around when they are undressing. And how many times have there been comments in this very forum from CDs saying they don't like being around men because most of them [-]are pigs[/-] disrespect women? And again, most female customers would not immediately consider that the male in the dressing rooms is TG and therefore is not a physical threat.

When the SA realized that you did have a legit reason to use the rooms, she offered you the opportunity. It would have been nice of you to take advantage of it. Maybe next time, you could explain that you are TG and show her the pics before asking to try on an outfit.


So if GG's feel entitled to enter my world when it comes to using men's fitting rooms, I now use women's fitting rooms with the same sense of entitlement

I seriously doubt that most women would feel comfortable entering men's changing areas. I've shopped for clothing with my sons for years, and I waited outside for them to come out and show me how the clothes fit. I've seen other women wait outside too. I've also seen women bring male clothing in the women's rooms on very rare occasions. And besides, women haven't historically been a physical threat to men like the reverse, so on the off chance a woman should walk into the male dressing room, I seriously doubt the male would fear for his safety.



FtM crossdressers are accepted without much to do about it..

Liz ... you could not be more wrong about this. Have you read all the threads in the F2M forum here? It's not a picnic for them either.

[BRANDYJ]

Reine, once agian, you make a whole lotta sense.

[Danni Bear]

Reine,
although not a F.A.B. I am a woman and I won't even let my husband(f2mts post-op) in the dressing room. It just doesn't feel right, and I wouldn't even think about accompying him to a mens dressing room. He can just come out and show me. Just my own :2c: worth.

Danni

[kellycan27]

In Canada at least, that's the wrong answer. If the dressing rooms are not a common area where women would routinely expect the possibility of seeing each other undressed, then under the Canada Charter of Rights and Freedoms, you would have to be able to establish that there was a substantial reason why they could not be mixed, and you would have to apply for a specific exemption for that purpose. Potential discomfort of the female clients would not be an accepted reason for a waiver: there is no Right to not be uncomfortable. In the case of individual change rooms that provide privacy and which do not have any substantial specialized fitting equipment, it would be fairly unlikely that a Canadian court would grant an exemption.


Re-read your argument and substitute "white" for "female" and "black" for "cd'er". If the result is obviously socially unacceptable under current understandings of civil rights, then it would very likely be unacceptable under Canadian law.

I spoke to a lawyer friend of mine and she said... A dressing room is offered as a convenience and not a service, and as a private business owner I have the right to use my discretion as to who may or may not use it. While it may be morally reprehensible to refuse it's use, it's not against the law. I can simply say that since I don't have anyone to monitor the room.. it's closed.
publicly owned businesses may refuse a man access to the lady's dressing room at their discretion as long as they provide the same accommodations (men's dressing rooms) for men.
The same applies to restroom use in public or private business. A public or private business doing interstate commerce can (again at their discretion) refuse or even eject a patron who uses the restroom other than the one marked for their LEGAL gender, as long as the establishment provides the same facilities for them. As far as she knows, there is no provision for men who only "present" as a woman. That is to say that they are not bound by law to let a cder use the lady's room if they provide a men's room,, and if push comes to shove they can require you to provide proof of transgender (but nobody probably cares that much) :heehee:.. but if a woman complains .. you might have some splainin to do.

[Katheryn]

But I had spied a little boutique store in my travels so I thought I'd pay a visit, in guy mode.


The first bit of confusion comes into play here. You mention a "boutique" but don't mention the nature of it. Was it a store that carried mostly women's clothes or was it bi-gendered in nature?



I walk in and two women were there, a SA (or owner?) and a customer. Immediately, the SA starts chatting me up in a positive way.

Again, the nature of the store is a factor here, but even more so, the ambiguity of whether the non-customer is an owner or just a SA. A SA is not empowered to change the rules the owner has laid down. I ran into a situation in Victoria's Secret where I was initially told I couldn't take merchandise of a feminine nature into the dressing area. My shopping companion, a very straightforward and to the point gg asked for the manager. We explained the situation to the manager and she unlocked the door to the dressing rooms. I ended up spending a good bit of money there that night. The manager explained that they had problems with males who took things into the dressing room and, er, "soiled them". She then told every associate in the store that I was allowed to try on anything I wanted, dressed boy or girl.



I replied that I'm typically a size 8 in this kind of style and asked if it would be OK if I tried this on. Her reply was immediate and emphatic as if rehersed despite the uneasy look on her face...

"Oh no, we don't let men in the dressing rooms".


One, if she was a SA and worked there for years, it wasn't so much rehearsed as it was ingrained, trained response. Perhaps she was in disagreement with the policy, but not allowed to make exceptions, plus, there was another customer in there and you have no idea what that other customer's thoughts of crossdressers was. If that other customer had spent thousands of dollars in that store, but was bigoted and societally straightlaced, it is possible that was a factor.



The look on her face was almost as if she saw a ghost, probably better described as a sudden moment of clarity. "OMG, look at you, so feminine" she said, among other things. By this time the customer in the store had left and the SA invited me to try on the red outfit, over and over again to the point where she was practially begging.

So the other customer, of whom you have no idea how they look at trans people, was now gone, the SA has the opportunity to make it right and perhaps endanger her job by running counter to store policy which she may not have had the authority to subvert and you don't allow her to "make it right" once she fully understands the situation.


My response? Sorry, not a chance. I explained nicely & politely that I shop where I am made to feel welcome and her initial response revealed her true colours.

Her initial response MAY have revealed her true colors, or they revealed the store policy about males in the dressing rooms. And even if it was her feelings when you entered the store, perhaps you'd educated her and given her a new perspective. So, educated and enlightened as she may have been, what did you show her about trans people at that point? We're stiff necked, easily offended folks. Was going to type something else, but thought the better of it.

Sometimes we demand that everyone fully and completely meet us at least halfway across the gender gap, but we have to remember to extend that to others, and, esp after they may have had a change of heart, to meet them halfway, also.


I was very clear that she lost a sale.

I was also going to ask at this point if you said "Nonny nonny boo boo" or some such childish thing, but decided not to. We really need to show folks, especially after they seem to realize we're not the perverts society has taught them that we are.

Kate

[noeleena]

Hi . Allie,
The issue that was being talked about was not being in the store s so much as being in the store & in the changing room areas where other women were.& they were trying on clothes. as i was refering to .
If you were buying clothes no probs .
Any way many men dont like being in womens shops .

We have some big stores with both male & female changing rooms even thats not the issue ,

For me its more the smaller boutiques for women .that was more what i was thinking , or the bra shopes
& as has been said men dont have any rights in shops or women for that matter . its up to the owner as to who can be in the stores, you / we are invited in . & can be told to leave .

We have had more than one man refused entry in to a shop here were we live,& our Police were involved ,
...noeleena...

[Leslie Langford]

Am I safe to assume that your sense of what's good for the goose is good for the gander applies to using the lady's room in the same fashion when in drab?

What Sandra-Leigh said. Right on, Sister!

As for using the ladies' room when in drab, that's not an issue for me as the need/desire to do so has never come up. I'm not on a mission to make a "point" in this respect, nor do I have a particular need to mark my "territory" as our four-legged friends do. But I do use the ladies' room when out en femme as that is just plain common sense, and I subscribe to the P.O.V. that one should use the washroom of the gender one is presenting as so as not to create any undue discomfort or consternation among the other users.

But getting back to my point about the sense of entitlement that females seem to feel in using men's washrooms - it often seems that their sense of urgency when hit with the "when ya gotta go, ya gotta go" need trumps my potential sense of discomfort when a woman walks past me to use the nearest stall while I am standing at a urinal doing my business. In that scenario, I am far more exposed than if the reverse were true and everyone in the ladies' room - including me - was sitting in a stall, and we all had our privacy despite whatever traffic might be taking place in the common area.

Yeah, yeah, women b*tch and complain that they have to do this because public buildings, theatres, arenas etc. typically don't have adequate washroom facilities for them, especially at times of heavy use e.g. during intermissions at a show. To that I say, that's not my problem, and if it is such an issue for them, then let them unleash the same fury at those builders who don't adequately take their needs into consideration as they have exercised in other areas to claim their rights to equality and an end to sex-based discrimination and double-standard treatment. As someone once said, "Your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins."

[Ashley_Marie]

Thats the reason I never shop in women's clothing stores. When I do shop I either go to Wal-Mart or if I do go to a clothing store I go to one with both men's and women's clothes.

[sandra-leigh]

I spoke to a lawyer friend of mine and she said... A dressing room is offered as a convenience and not a service, and as a private business owner I have the right to use my discretion as to who may or may not use it. While it may be morally reprehensible to refuse it's use, it's not against the law. I can simply say that since I don't have anyone to monitor the room.. it's closed.
publicly owned businesses may refuse a man access to the lady's dressing room at their discretion as long as they provide the same accommodations (men's dressing rooms) for men.


First off, intimates are, by law, not returnable, and thus having to buy them, try them, bring them back, is not merely an inconvenience as in other kinds of merchandise: it is a legal impossibility. This factor changes the game. Likewise if it was store policy rather than law that no returns could be made except in cases of defects, then not providing a "service" would not go over at all well with Consumer And Corporate Affairs Canada, unless the items were being sold at substantial discounts "as-is".

Secondly, in Canada, the "discretion" that you speak of exists to some degree, but it must not be based upon any of the prohibited grounds in the Canada Charter of Rights and Freedoms, one of which is sexual discrimination. If you provide the "convenience" for females and the rooms are private from each other (so it isn't a "locker-room" type of situation) then you would not be able to blanketly deny access to males: there would have to be specific reasons for each denial. For example, it would not be unfair to deny access to someone grubby who obviously had not washed in a while... provided you applied the same standards to female clients.

I've had an SA try a variant of the "I don't have anyone to monitor" ploy when there was no-one else in the store. I just plopped down on one of the customer chairs and smiled and said (in a normal tone of voice), "Okay, I'll wait." After a few minutes of my patient waiting, the SA got flustered enough to realize they didn't have any good reason after-all, and although they could have had more grace in showing me in to the change room, by the time I was finished trying the items on, their attitude had moderated.


I might, in this discussion, perhaps somewhere have given the impression that SAs are generally or often reluctant to allow me to try things on; if so then it should be noted that the great majority of times there is no issue at all, with the SAs offering to start change-rooms for me.

I have encountered some smaller stores where an SA is thrown for a bit of a loss when I ask to try something on when I'm in drab, but in such cases, if a senior manager or owner is around, typically the manager / owner gives me a very quick once-over and tells the SA to let me in.

I have several times encountered places in which the official company policy was not to let males into that change room, but in which the SA took a brief look around to see if management was looking and promptly bustled me in -- that is, the SA themselves believed I should be allowed in and were only worried about being caught violating company policy.

If I have given the impression that in stores I rant about my rights until I'm given my way, that isn't the case (though on the fairly rare occasion I've gone back later to talk to an owner or senior manager.) More accurate is that even when I'm in semi-drab, owners and SA's see me and find themselves wanting to make exceptions for me -- and when they do, the next time I wonder back that way the policy has often been changed.

[Sara Jessica]

Wow, step away for a bit and all heck breaks loose...


How many in this discussion are women. not many i m thinking . & how many would go up to the sales lady & say hi . im a crossdresser would you mind if i tryed on some clothes . not many i bet.

I didn't know I had to wear a label of any kind.


Your talking about being accepted then why not be open in the first place . are the sale ladys going to be bothered . most , no.

You mean walk into the store and say "ta-daaaaa, here I am, a tg!" ???


when i take our granddaughter Dejarn in to the shops i dont expect men to be looking at me or Dejarn they should not be there .

1. Why would we be "looking at you", 2. "they should not be there???" :eek:


Im a woman in a womans shop & some times we dont wont or need men around ,

I'm having a hard time hearing this come from someone within our own community.


... a point thats being over looked..... remember you are men not women so please respect that miner detail ,you wont respect then give it , it goes both ways,

I give nothing but absolute respect in every out-and-about situation I find myself in and more often than not, I receive it back plus more.


If you come in , as dressed as female or / women then act like one & maybe you can be accepted in to our space just dont flunt it . as said lookers with roving eyes. no thanks,

"Our space?" There you go again, holier than thou. Glad to finally know what it takes to be accepted in your space, seems how I'm such a rookie at the whole thing.


Iv seen some dressers & why wont they be accepted . i think you know why. because theres nothing about them that says female, & that does not bode well for others who are trying to be female & live as female.

...and again!!! I hate the implication here, that unless one cannot pass as female by your standards, they have no business being out because it doesn't bode well for you.

And let the record reflect, speaking for myself, I am acutely aware of the challenges that those who are full time endure and I conduct myself in such a way so as never to hurt those who might follow in my wake.


The need is to be a little more in tune with women in the real world . I dont know about those of you here if you do this .

There is no question we all need to be in tune with the feelings of others. I think it's unfair to imply that anyone who is participating here is not.


im well known in all the shops i go in to & has been like that for years. difference is i get to know people may be i come from a different set of understanding people & in how i engage with people how i deal with people ,
I never had problems when i was shoping for Jos & later for my self because i made the point of getting to know the sales ladys . or others as was needed.

Hey, a page that's pretty much taken from my book. But then again, if I'm to go by many of the points you already made, the "first contact" that I described at the beginning should have included a name & species tag, an introductory greeting and...oh wait, I'm sorry, I didn't belong in such a store presenting as a guy. Never mind then, I guess it's best to be consigned to making all such purchases online.


One of the biggest problems the many men have is not being sensitive to how women think & feel hence the reason of much that has been talked about here, you know barge in do what you wont to do & no care for any one else so long as youv got what you wont. & then leave the mess behind .
Iv seen this enough times now & sad to say from some dressers. & its no wonder women are not accepting .

Painting again with such a broad brush.

No matter how we present, no matter where we choose to shop or what we buy, the motivations and goals for those of us who interact with the real world are probably as varied as we are as a group. Personally, I don't typically do the try-on thing in guy mode but I cannot and will not fault those who perhaps do all of their shopping in this way.

There is a serious amount of enlightenment which needs to take place before we are not seen as a curiosity, novelty, or worse when interacting with the public. And this does go both ways. If Noelena made a single point that I can agree with, it is that we must conduct ourselves with empathy and respect.


Noelena, I have to disagree with you regarding that men should not be in a woman's store. Why not? I have bought womens and girls clothes for my wife, daughter and girlfriends for too many years to think about (I am hat old!) and have every right to be in that store looking around. Just because a man is in a woman's store or section of a larger store does not mean he in any way that he is there to molest a woman nor peak in changing room. That type of negative activity is actually it is very rare when compared to the total number of people, men included who go into the stores. He could be there looking for a gift for someone or on an errand for his SO. Sara Jessica and the rest of us MtF dressers have every right to be in that same type of store to look around and maybe purchase something that we like for ourselves. We do not need to go in dressed as a woman either. I do understand that a smaller store may want to accommodate a male to try on woman's clothes by waiting until there are less woman in the changing area. However, even that "allowance" to their apprehensions can be argued as unnecessary.

Stated with so much more grace than I was able to pull off Allie.


So I am a business owner, and I am faced with the the possibility of alienating my female clientele by allowing men into their dressing room, or I can alienate the the odd cder who happens to drop by my business once every so often? Sorry, men aren't allowed in the lady's dressing rooms.:heehee:

Such is the story on the other side of the coin. An absolute truth Kelly.


Sara, I'd like to propose a different scenario.

When you first asked if you could try on the outfit, the SA likely had NO IDEA that you are TG. You were in guy mode and you hadn't yet showed her your pictures. I know it seems like a no brainer to those of us who hang out here all the time, but believe it or not, most people don't automatically think "TG" when presented with a male who wants to go into the ladies rooms.

So true Reine.


What comes to mind instead, is the ubiquitous fear that most females experience around potentially unsafe situations involving men, the same fear that makes a woman uneasy about walking out alone at night. Trust me on this. The fear is real, and it is there because of centuries of men having had the upper hand on women physically, psychologically, and legally.

Also, here are some rape statistics: http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/statistics.html

91% of victims are female, 9% are male, with 99% of rapists being male. There are good reasons for women feeling uneasy about having men around when they are undressing. And how many times have there been comments in this very forum from CDs saying they don't like being around men because most of them [-]are pigs[/-] disrespect women? And again, most female customers would not immediately consider that the male in the dressing rooms is TG and therefore is not a physical threat.

I agree. I touched on the "creepy" aspect but let the safety factor go without saying. Thank you for bringing this into the mix, it adds to what we all need to consider when showing empathy.


When the SA realized that you did have a legit reason to use the rooms, she offered you the opportunity. It would have been nice of you to take advantage of it. Maybe next time, you could explain that you are TG and show her the pics before asking to try on an outfit.


That is a very valid approach to consider if something like this happens to me again...if I have the pictures with me :).

And I'll explain more later on when I have more time as to another reason why trying on the outfit became somewhat unimportant to me.

[SuzanneBender]

Sara what an entertaining and emotionally charged thread. Not unlike most of us that post here:heehee:. There are so many salient points here it would take several pages to multi quote and comment on them all.

First Sara I must say you truly are confident in yourself and all that you do. You are a wonderful representative of our community. If more of us would do as you did by showing the shop owner our true selves I think our lives would be easier.

Your shopping experience and many of the comments in this thread show that we still have a long way to go baby. I don't fault the shop owner for her business decision. It was a decision driven by that fact that our society embraces repressive out dated gender stereotypes and roles. The stereotypes that paint someone that wants to dress like the opposite gender as a freak and the roles that still allow men act like cavemen to the point that women fear us. She had a choice and she chose to lose your business because at that moment because your were a man challenging those repressive boundaries.

Unfortunately her choice resulted in you not getting the outfit. I am sure it was fantabulous because I know your taste.

I guess I have a dream. A dream that one day those repressive gender lines will start to fall away. A dream that one day transgendered shoppers will be able to hold hands with non-transgenders shoppers and walk together as brothers and sisters browsing the newest fashions and enjoying the clearance racks together. :hugs:

[ReineD]

It was a decision driven by that fact that our society embraces repressive out dated gender stereotypes and roles. The stereotypes that paint someone that wants to dress like the opposite gender as a freak and the roles that still allow men act like cavemen to the point that women fear us.

I, for one, do not embrace repressive, out-dated gender stereotypes and roles. You've not experienced the fear a woman feels when she is threatened by a man, or even when she feels there is a potential threat. It's real, and it happens. Frequently. I tried to explain it to my son once. He didn't understand it either. He's 6'4". I experience it even more frequently now that I live alone, every time I hear a noise in the middle of the night. Or when a strange man comes to the door. Or when I walk alone in a darkened parking lot.

How was the SA to know that Sara is transgender? How many TGs are there in her family, or has she been exposed to? What training has she had and if it is a small shop, what financial resources does the owner have to match the sensitivity training that larger corporations give their employees on all HR issues? How is the SA expected to tell the difference between a TG, a potential rapist, a man using false pretexes in order to get back there and steal a customer's purse, or a fetishist who enjoys self-gratification in women's changing rooms? You cannot dismiss the other possibilities. The world is filled with nefarious characters, and for the SA to be mistrustful of behaviors outside the norm does not mean she is prejudiced against TGs.

The SA did not choose to lose the sale. She behaved in the best way she knew how given her experience, and she did want to accommodate Sara once she felt comfortable with her motives. But if I were the SA and had a TG customer walk out after being offered the changing rooms, I would wonder if all TGs have such short fuses, and it might make me leery of the next TG who walks into the store.

The ideal you envision won't happen by itself. There simply aren't enough TGs out there to make such inroads. But it does have a chance of happening if members of the TG community are mindful of non-transgenders' ignorance, especially when the non TGs do their best to learn and to accommodate.

As a friend told me once when I was having trouble seeing someone else's POV, "It's not all about you".

[kellycan27]

Here you may take you intimates home and try them on and if they don't fit you may return them as long as you have not removed the tags.. leagally.
Many stores (here) ie VS, kohls, Penneys, Sears, Nordstroms will allow you to return intimates even IF the tags have been removed. The only thing that would be against the law would be IF the store re-sold the untagged return.
There was just a big to do about VS and some other big retailers re-tagging panties and putting them back on the sakes rack.

I spoke to my lawyer friend again and she said that you wouldn't have a sexual discrimination case here. The Store is providing you the same accommodations as it does it's female customers, so they are acting reasonably. In her honest opinion, you'd lose in court, "IF" in fact that the court would even bother to hear your case. She closed by saying that in this case the word "flivorious" comes to mind.

[Philipa Jane]

This has been a good subject to review by all concerned.

Am I wrong about Kelly and Sandra taking this into a pi--ing contest.

Whilst giving valid points of view they both seem to want to score points.

Reine I just love your sense of balance on the whole issue and we men do not know the unease that you feel at times when put in positions as were discussed here re changing rooms.

Sara.
I respect your right to handle the situation in such a way as you did, but with all things considered would it not be better now to go back to the boutique (if they had other things you may have liked) and be treated with much better service and a new understanding?

Finally If I ever get to the stage of trying things on in a store I think to save embarrassment I would quietly let the SA know that I am CD and see how that flies.
:hugs:PJ

[Danni Bear]

Kelly,
I can understand your p.o.v. but even before I transitioned when in male if my young granddaughter had to go . I would take her in the ladies room but would announce myself before going past the door. If noone answered then I proceeded but most times a woman would answer and would help her. I will still do the same today with ny young grandsons but I also will not leave the area and if it seems too long I will enter come hell or high water. :2c:

Danni

[kellycan27]

Am I wrong about Kelly and Sandra taking this into a pi--ing contest

Sandra and Kelly are having a friendly debate. Some of us are interested in other things besides what color panties one wears, or whether one stands or sits when they pee. that ok with you? You will notice that I said when they pee, not where they pee... we're still discussing that. :battingeyelashes:

[TinaMc]

How was the SA to know that Sara is transgender? How many TGs are there in her family, or has she been exposed to? What training has she had and if it is a small shop, what financial resources does the owner have to match the sensitivity training that larger corporations give their employees on all HR issues? How is the SA expected to tell the difference between a TG, a potential rapist, a man using false pretexes in order to get back there and steal a customer's purse, or a fetishist who enjoys self-gratification in women's changing rooms? You cannot dismiss the other possibilities. The world is filled with nefarious characters, and for the SA to be mistrustful of behaviors outside the norm does not mean she is prejudiced against TGs.


Is it fair on men though that in this situation they are being judged as either: freaky tranny, potential rapist, thief, or pervert wanting to bash one out in the ladies' changing area? As someone else said previously, women don't get that treatment going into men's changing areas. No one would think twice about their motives. Why are men automatically subject to suspicion? I realise we are the ones venturing into GGs territory here, just think it's a bit of a sad reflection on how men are viewed in today's world really...

[Philipa Jane]

Sorry Kelly if the suggestion hit a nerve (I did not mean any offence)
I take it from the inference that I have by way of the reference to coloured panties and such like.
Shame on you!!
Often we read inferences into situations and text that are not correct.
PJ

[kellycan27]

Sorry Kelly if the suggestion hit a nerve (I did not mean any offence)
I take it from the inference that I have by way of the reference to coloured panties and such like.
Shame on you!!
Often we read inferences into situations and text that are not correct.
PJ

Nope, no offence taken, and any inference was strictly by chance.. I don't read the panty threads so I have no idea who does or doesn't post in them.:hugs:

Kel

[Katheryn]

I mentioned this thread to a co-worker today and she had an entirely different idea than I have noticed mentioned in the thread.

Lawsuits. Every business has to protect itself from lawsuits, many of which should never have been filed. Just as the Darwin Awards online (800 + stupid ways people have accidentally killed themselves, we now have The Stella Awards (http://stellaawards.com) in honor of Stella Liebeck the lady who infamously put the McDonald's coffee between her legs and burned herself.

It doesn't matter if the lawsuit has actual value, legally. Anyone can and does sue over even immagined slights. Finding a male in the dressing room could spark someone to call Willwee Cheetem and Howe, Attorneys at Law on their cell phone.

It's a sad world in many ways.

Kate

[Satrana]

As someone else said previously, women don't get that treatment going into men's changing areas. No one would think twice about their motives. Why are men automatically subject to suspicion?

To me that is the important issue here. In our society women are innocent until proven guilt. The opposite is true of men - we are guilty until proven innocent.

Remember Sara had not revealed her TG status yet so the SA's cold initial response was a reflection on her sexist discrimination towards males in general.

To claim that this sexism is justified because some men are creeps does not hold water. This is easily demonstrated. Would the SA be right in denying a black person the use of the changing rooms on the premise that they are more likely to steal the clothes. After all it is a fact that criminality runs at much higher levels in the black community than the white community. So you can argue the data evidence would justify such a response, so lets change the SA's response -

"We don't allow black people to use our changing rooms"

Now the discrimination is blatant. Who is going to argue that this is justifiable despite the data backing up this sentiment?

We need to wake up to the fact that it is ALWAYS wrong to discriminate. Women do not have an entitlement to discriminate against men because of the actions of a few. Equality has a clear meaning however our society has been conditioned to accept discrimination against men is permissible.

This story is not about TG rights rather it is about men's rights.

[Sara Jessica]

OK, beer and margaritas!!!

As suggested by Diane, her and I met up over some PF Chang's happy hour on Monday. There's more to be said about that fun evening in another place but let me say this about Diane...she comes across as being pretty serious (or is that pretty & serious???) and sometimes a little intense in her writing (which is one thing I've enjoyed about reading her posts). But let me say how charming and fun she is. It's great to meet someone new in our community because the opportunity for chatting it up is nearly endless. I found that her and I do share many similarities, not to mention that our outfits, though distinctly different in person, kind of look way too similar in pictures...it was an absolute pleasure to meet you Diane!

So back to the summit. Ya know, there just wasn't a lot of debate. We barely touched on it. Was it simply because we were distracted by other things? Perhaps. But I'll float a little theory that something that I did earlier in the day kind of added a new twist to the whole thing which maybe rendered further discussion moot.

Although I was meeting Diane at 5:00-ish, I was to meet another friend for lunch in downtown Los Angeles so my day was quite full. But as the morning wore on, the lunch kept being pushed back because my friend was doing a makeover for one of her friends who she recently connected with at a high school reunion. So our lunch ended up being at 2:30 p.m. Heading into LA, I found myself with just a little time to kill.

It wasn't too far off my path to pay a visit to said boutique in girl mode. I walked in and found the store empty, no one in sight. I started to peruse the outer racks when she emerged from a back room, the SA from the first visit. She asked if she could help me and I asked if she recognized me. The expression on her face was priceless. She said she wouldn't have even recognized me were it not for my voice (darnit!!!). Her compliments on my appearance were sweet, even to the point where I actually felt a little uncomfortable of being on the receiving end of such praise. But I did sense she was being absolutely genuine. I explained to her that I was on my way to have lunch with a friend, that I only had a minute but wanted to stop by to say hello.

This short visit, at least for me, seemed to bring the episode full circle. The SA, she has essentially interacted with someone from our community in guy mode (with trepidation), visually through pictures (with mind opened up) and finally in person (now enlightened?).

More later on some of the subsequent points, time permitting. Again, Diane, thank you for creating the opportunity for our little get-together.

[stefanie]

Wow...great thread and responses.

my 2 cents....

i tend to be less harsh on SA's or any others than seem to be 'critical' of us. They are simply trying to do their job. They are presented with rules by the management and /or owners. This is what allows them to keep their job. Pretty simple as it works for say 99% of their customers i am sure. As a society, we have trained people to follow the rules. People are not trying to be mean or critical, they are simply taking the easier protocol path...can we blame them until they learn more then they can make a different decision. I think as a society we all too often judge others on our first impression when we expect others not to judge us on the same. Easy answer, nope. Empathetic answer, i hope so.

[Leslie Langford]

Sara,

I applaud you for bringing this incident to such a happy conclusion, and despite a few hiccups along the way, you appear to have made a new ally (and possibly a friend) in this SA who is now clearly ready to count you among her favorite and more valued customers. It is always wonderful when an initially troubling story is brought to a successful resolution and results in a happy ending like this one - especially when a "win-win" situation is created out of a better understanding of the other person's position and the spirit of compromise is invoked. In the end, it all comes down to respect, which is really what most of us are seeking when it comes to our interactions with "mainstream" folks.

You have done us all a great service, not only by educating this SA as to what we CDers are (and aren't), but also by breaking down the barriers of mistrust and suspicion that arose between the two of you in your initial meeting. I am sure that this has left a very positive impression on her, and she will henceforth bend over backwards when serving other members of our community, should the occasion arise again.

This is the same philosophy that I follow when out and about as "Leslie". I may not always be completely passable, but I dress and conduct myself in a manner that is respectful to women, and the amount of goodwill and superior service that I have been able to attract in the process borders on the amazing. Aretha Franklin's "R.E.S.P.E.C.T" mantra is really at the core of this, especially when this respect flows in both directions and in equal measure. :hugs::thumbsup:

[TxKimberly]

So I am a business owner, and I am faced with the the possibility of alienating my female clientele by allowing men into their dressing room, or I can alienate the the odd cder who happens to drop by my business once every so often? Sorry, men aren't allowed in the lady's dressing rooms.:heehee:


In all honesty, I do have to agree with you BUT. . .
The business owner made her choice and now gets the consequences, both good and bad. She chose not to risk alienating her female clients and she lost at least one sale, and the possibility of more future sales, from Sarah and anyone Sarah might share this information with.
So, the owner made her choice, and Sarah made hers. Both people were well within their rights and both people left the experience unhappy.
Kind of screwed up huh?

[Sara Jessica]

There are so many things I'd like to respond to above but I can address these pretty quickly...


Wow...great thread and responses.

my 2 cents....

i tend to be less harsh on SA's or any others than seem to be 'critical' of us. They are simply trying to do their job. They are presented with rules by the management and /or owners. This is what allows them to keep their job. Pretty simple as it works for say 99% of their customers i am sure. As a society, we have trained people to follow the rules. People are not trying to be mean or critical, they are simply taking the easier protocol path...can we blame them until they learn more then they can make a different decision. I think as a society we all too often judge others on our first impression when we expect others not to judge us on the same. Easy answer, nope. Empathetic answer, i hope so.

And you have added to the great responses Stefanie. But one point that I'd like to make is that I don't perceive my initial actions or reaction as harsh, nor spiteful or some of the other critical adjectives that were previously used. It was simply as matter-of-fact as the SA's original reaction, nothing more & nothing less.


Sara,

I applaud you for bringing this incident to such a happy conclusion, and despite a few hiccups along the way, you appear to have made a new ally (and possibly a friend) in this SA who is now clearly ready to count you among her favorite and more valued customers. It is always wonderful when an initially troubling story is brought to a successful resolution and results in a happy ending like this one - especially when a "win-win" situation is created out of a better understanding of the other person's position and the spirit of compromise is invoked. In the end, it all comes down to respect, which is really what most of us are seeking when it comes to our interactions with "mainstream" folks.

You have done us all a great service, not only by educating this SA as to what we CDers are (and aren't), but also by breaking down the barriers of mistrust and suspicion that arose between the two of you in your initial meeting. I am sure that this has left a very positive impression on her, and she will henceforth bend over backwards when serving other members of our community, should the occasion arise again.

This is the same philosophy that I follow when out and about as "Leslie". I may not always be completely passable, but I dress and conduct myself in a manner that is respectful to women, and the amount of goodwill and superior service that I have been able to attract in the process borders on the amazing. Aretha Franklin's "R.E.S.P.E.C.T" mantra is really at the core of this, especially when this respect flows in both directions and in equal measure. :hugs::thumbsup:

You have pointed out the true essence of this entire scenario in a single post. And the part that I put in bold in your third paragraph could have been written by me (and I'm sure it has been in different words elsewhere). This is exactly what I strive for when I go out.


In all honesty, I do have to agree with you BUT. . .
The business owner made her choice and now gets the consequences, both good and bad. She chose not to risk alienating her female clients and she lost at least one sale, and the possibility of more future sales, from Sarah and anyone Sarah might share this information with.
So, the owner made her choice, and Sarah made hers. Both people were well within their rights and both people left the experience unhappy.
Kind of screwed up huh?

Very screwed up, something which isn't likely to be solved any time soon given the number of variables we all encournter when we go out and about, whether it has to do with how we present or the unexpected reactions of those we enounter. But let me clarify something. Choices were made, things were said, but trust me when I say I am in no way unhappy about this whole thing. It's an outfit, that's all. Nostalgia was it's call to me and I know I can live without it. Of course I could return to get it at any time now if I choose to do so but really, it really wasn't all that important. I am the type of shopper that if I leave something behind in a store, if it calls to me in the days to follow, I know I must return to buy it. In this case, that call isn't there and it has zero to do with the initial reaction of the SA.

At the end of the day, whether I return to that shop someday or someone else from our community happens into there, I think the road is paved for a positive result.

[sandra-leigh]

Sandra and Kelly are having a friendly debate.

We are? I just thought we were educating each other about the situations in our respective legal jurisdictions.


{Canada} Charter {of Rights and Freedoms} cases based upon dissimilar treatment of the sexes do get accepted by courts here, and (in general terms) their outcome typically depends upon whether the defendant had made considered and researched policy choices (vs ad-hoc decisions), upon whether the policies were written (vs oral tradition) and made available to the public, and upon whether the defendant had offered reasonable accomodation of broadly similar respectability.

e.g., if a store had investigated the costs involved in adding an additional change room, found that it could not be done in a cost effective manner due to engineering or by-law limitations, and posted a clear sign about their policy, then probably a court here would rule that they had done enough and that the exclusion was logistical rather than discriminatory. The courts here are not hard-nosed about absolute equality, but they do require that there be reasons.

If a store had no policy on the matter and had not investigated the possibilities, and the SA made an instant decision without seeking ways to accomodate the customer, then a court here might well rule against the store. Likewise, if the customer was directed to a dirty toilet as the only permitted change area, then even though that was a form of accomodation, it would probably be ruled to not be a substantially equal and dignified accomodation.


I do not have a case reference available, but when I went through an equality training seminar at work here in Canada (about a decade ago), they used an example of a person in a wheel-chair who was asked to use the service elevator: the trainer indicated that the person sued and won on the basis that the "message" being conveyed was that a handicapped person was equivalent to "freight", an object rather than a person.


In the hypothetical case you presented of you being a business owner who was concerned about the feelings of females in the change area, a "reasonable accomodation" would be to ask the person to wait until all the customers who were already in the change area were out, and then to offer the person their turn in sequence; with the consent of person who was asked to wait, additional (female) customers could be allowed to use the other cubicles after being informed of the situation -- after all, if the hypothesis is that they might object and they are given the relevant information and they do not object, then there is no barrier to them entering.


Anecdotally: in every situation I have been in in which the owner or SA was worried about what the female customers might think, the female customers did not mind; instead they smiled, and complimented me or asked for my opinion; or upon being informed that I was in a cubicle (in a bra store), said "That's okay" and went ahead in.

[Satrana]

In the hypothetical case you presented of you being a business owner who was concerned about the feelings of females in the change area, a "reasonable accomodation" would be to ask the person to wait until all the customers who were already in the change area were out, and then to offer the person their turn in sequence; with the consent of person who was asked to wait, additional (female) customers could be allowed to use the other cubicles after being informed of the situation -- after all, if the hypothesis is that they might object and they are given the relevant information and they do not object, then there is no barrier to them entering.

That is exactly what I was thinking, the SA's answer should have been Yes you can try this on but you must wait for either the cubicles to be empty or for any women currently using them to consent. There are no reasonable grounds to object to men using changing rooms in these circumstances.

In addition we do not know the layout of the cubicles. For example if there was only one then any objection is moot. Or if the cubicles were fully enclosed with floor to ceiling walls then again the objection would be deemed unreasonable.

Like I said earlier why are men deemed guilty until proved innocent? Fortunately Sara had the ways and means to prove her innocence so it ended on a happy note but this is screwed up.

This does not just happen in private businesses though. In some public swimming pools there are women-only days when men are barred because some women complain about being uncomfortable around men in bathing suits. It is illegal but it still occurs.

[kellycan27]

You are correct. I should have used "discussion". :hugs:

Kel


In all honesty, I do have to agree with you BUT. . .
The business owner made her choice and now gets the consequences, both good and bad. She chose not to risk alienating her female clients and she lost at least one sale, and the possibility of more future sales, from Sarah and anyone Sarah might share this information with.
So, the owner made her choice, and Sarah made hers. Both people were well within their rights and both people left the experience unhappy.
Kind of screwed up huh?

That was pretty much my position from my first post. It takes two to tango.
:hugs:

Kel

[Nicole Erin]

I would have handled this a bit different -

OK so after the showing of the femme photos, and got to chatting, I would have went ahead and used the dressing room and assuming it fit well enough -

Then would have gone to the counter, said, "Well I don't know, it fits but kind of akward...

And then haggled for a discount. :D She probably would have knocked a little something off the price.
I mean at the very least the haggling would have put her in yet another pinch, but in the end I would have just bought the dress, discount or not.
I guess being dressed totally in male mode did catch her off guard.

See, I have this friend who has a habit of haggling. He says the best time to ensure discounts is when the salesperson messes up cause then they feel in a position to keep customers happy.

Had she offered the discount, then of course buy it, thank her, and bury the hatchet. All would be happy and your wallet would not lose as much green.

[sandra-leigh]

Hmmm, that might be good haggling strategy, but it isn't one that I personally would be willing to follow.

There are two local clothing stores that regularly give me discounts, one a consignment store and the other a boutique. I didn't ask for a discount either place: they offer it to me because they like me; each of them gave me a 50% discount within the last week (about $75 discount at each of the places.)

Haggling on guilt might work over the short term, but having the owners consider you in the category of "friends and family" is better :happy:

[Sara Jessica]

(what she said, too long to post here)

Kate, I think you were trying to read more detail into the situation than necessary. For instance, from what I can tell, guys typically don't shop in "boutiques" so there's not much of a question, at least in my mind, that it was a women's clothing store. Imagine, "hey honey, I'm gonna run down to "Ted's Boutique" to pick up a new sport coat." It just doesn't flow!

And despite your statement otherwise, you did ask if I said "nonny nonny boo boo" and I think I had already addressed that. NO!!! The outcome of the first visit wasn't spiteful in the least bit. The exchange happened, I left empty handed, end of story. I didn't reach into my wallet and grab a handful of cash to walk out the door saying "you won't be seeing any of this from me". Now that would have been "nonny nonny spiteful boo boo" on my part.


Sara what an entertaining and emotionally charged thread. Not unlike most of us that post here:heehee:. There are so many salient points here it would take several pages to multi quote and comment on them all.

First Sara I must say you truly are confident in yourself and all that you do. You are a wonderful representative of our community. If more of us would do as you did by showing the shop owner our true selves I think our lives would be easier.

Your shopping experience and many of the comments in this thread show that we still have a long way to go baby. I don't fault the shop owner for her business decision. It was a decision driven by that fact that our society embraces repressive out dated gender stereotypes and roles. The stereotypes that paint someone that wants to dress like the opposite gender as a freak and the roles that still allow men act like cavemen to the point that women fear us. She had a choice and she chose to lose your business because at that moment because your were a man challenging those repressive boundaries.

Unfortunately her choice resulted in you not getting the outfit. I am sure it was fantabulous because I know your taste.

I guess I have a dream. A dream that one day those repressive gender lines will start to fall away. A dream that one day transgendered shoppers will be able to hold hands with non-transgenders shoppers and walk together as brothers and sisters browsing the newest fashions and enjoying the clearance racks together. :hugs:

Not sure if I want to hold hands with all of them, have you seen how they sometimes leave the restroom without washing??? ;)

You are sweet Suzanne and I hope that you caught that Diane and I made up for our not meeting up with her the last time you were out this way. Of course, the whole thing would have had that extra bit of enjoyment if you were present as well.


Is it fair on men though that in this situation they are being judged as either: freaky tranny, potential rapist, thief, or pervert wanting to bash one out in the ladies' changing area? As someone else said previously, women don't get that treatment going into men's changing areas. No one would think twice about their motives. Why are men automatically subject to suspicion? I realise we are the ones venturing into GGs territory here, just think it's a bit of a sad reflection on how men are viewed in today's world really...

You know what they say, bad apple, meet barrel. It's unfortunate but it is what it is. All we can do is our best to represent well and hope to build bridges faster than the creeps can burn them.


This is the same philosophy that I follow when out and about as "Leslie". I may not always be completely passable, but I dress and conduct myself in a manner that is respectful to women, and the amount of goodwill and superior service that I have been able to attract in the process borders on the amazing. Aretha Franklin's "R.E.S.P.E.C.T" mantra is really at the core of this, especially when this respect flows in both directions and in equal measure. :hugs::thumbsup:

Seems to be a common theme in terms of goals of many of us when we explore the wonderful world that we live in. Well said Leslie!!!


That is exactly what I was thinking, the SA's answer should have been Yes you can try this on but you must wait for either the cubicles to be empty or for any women currently using them to consent. There are no reasonable grounds to object to men using changing rooms in these circumstances.

In addition we do not know the layout of the cubicles. For example if there was only one then any objection is moot. Or if the cubicles were fully enclosed with floor to ceiling walls then again the objection would be deemed unreasonable.

Like I said earlier why are men deemed guilty until proved innocent? Fortunately Sara had the ways and means to prove her innocence so it ended on a happy note but this is screwed up.

This does not just happen in private businesses though. In some public swimming pools there are women-only days when men are barred because some women complain about being uncomfortable around men in bathing suits. It is illegal but it still occurs.

Layout was two side-by-side dressing rooms if I recall correct, separated from one another.

And I don't think we're having this discussion at all had the SA said anything reasonable beyond the emphatic "no". An offer to wait for the customer to leave, come back another time, or whatever. I may have still been miffed but not likely enough to have created this thread.

[Lara Smith]

Sara,

I think that was spiteful. The education took place when she saw the picture, her eyes got big, and thereby gained respect for you.

Remember, the public has been conditioned for umpteen years that we are psychos and sickos, and the daytime shows often reinforce that fact. You showed her how a normal looking and decent acting guy could be a great looking woman.

It's like you couldn't resist sticking it to her. Is that positive PR?

-- Diane

I agree completely with Diane.

[AllieSF]

The sales agent got what she deserved in a very tactful manner. No one has been "conditioned that we are sickos and psychos". The real problem is that they have not been conditioned at all. They just are not familiar with something or someone different and we are that to them. Nothing more and nothing less. Only the low life's with the wrong education react so negatively and crudely. That has been my experience and many others with whom I have discussed our acceptance by the general public. I think that a lot of people think that everyone is against us, when in reality they just don't know or understand us.

[sandra-leigh]

No one has been "conditioned that we are sickos and psychos". The real problem is that they have not been conditioned at all. They just are not familiar with something or someone different and we are that to them. Nothing more and nothing less. Only the low life's with the wrong education react so negatively and crudely.

In the decades I was going to elementary school (60's and 70's), the social context was of intolerance and hatred to homosexuality. The kids picked up on this.

Did they get the "wrong education"? Only if you mean at home and in the streets and in the newspapers and on TV and in restaurants and in public. The elementary schools I attended were decent ones that generally promoted love and tolerance -- but also did not specifically speak against homophobia or transphobia. Speaking against homophobia would have required speaking about sexuality, which those schools avoided (but so did pretty much all other elementary schools in the country at the time.) Speaking against transphobia would have required talking about a subject that was basically not on the horizon at the time: reassignment surgeries in North America only started about the time I entered the school system.

Transvestite phobia: we didn't know what it was. Transvestites were something you saw on British comedy shows (if you sought them out on public TV), or later something you saw on the Flip Wilson show. It was fun and games, not a serious lifestyle.

I may have given the impression that transphobia and gender-variant phobias did not exist in our area at the time. They did exist, but they weren't named or understood or recognized for what they were. But exist they did: one of the worst insults that could be placed against a boy in those days was to insist that he must really be a girl because of his behaviour or the way he did something. Now we would understand that as transgender discrimination: back then it would have been understood in terms of the message that girls and women were lesser people than boys and men.

North America went through a lot of social changes in the second half of the 1960's -- civil rights, women's lib, the Stonewall riots, Hippies, Yippies, LSD, the peace movement. Canada lagged behind on a number of those and avoided others of them. A lot that is taken as established fact or as "history" now was only just happening then, and it is not surprising that the elementary school system was not on top of the issues. That doesn't mean that the education at the time was "bad", just that it was a product of its times. And those are the times that produced the Baby Boomers who are the ones who are largely in power now (though some of the old guard is still around.) The tolerances and understandings of those Baby Boomers are things that they have had to learn as adults, as the times they grew up in taught otherwise.

[Ms Jennifer]

I shop in guy mode all the time and only shop at stores that are trully cd friendly when I first ask if they mind if I buy girly items for me.If they give me that bad look then I leave and do not go back.I am a repeat customer at the truly friendly stores .I have come back and they would tell me they have some items they thought I might like put aside just for me.I just love the resale shops since most of them are so eager to make sales.And when the pink fog moves in HA

[t-girlxsophie]

I remember a cpl years ago I heard that a certain Dept store in Edinburgh let men get fitted for a bra,well I thought finally get my real size,so me and a friend went to said store,well the SA was prob in her 60s,and I swear before I got the words out,the poor woman was going into shock,had visions of her fainting on the spot "Oh! we don't do things like that",well we may be making great strides,but theres a long road to full acceptance

:hugs:Sophie xx