Interested in comments about this story

[kittypw GG]

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.laweekly.com%2F2010-08-19%2Fnews%2Fmike-penner-christine-daniels-a-tragic-love-story%2F&h=4ddea

This story touched me on many levels. Any comments?

[Persephone]

Wow, Kitty, that is some story! Tragically sad, but it certainly appears to have been well told.

I only knew that it had occurred, never knew any details. Thank you for having posted the link.

[JoAnne Wheeler]

I think that it indicates extremely well just how hard it is to live as two people and how hard it is to transition and how much the costs are to transition.

To me it indicates that she could not not bear the costs to transition - the cost of the loss of a spouse and loved ones.

But as I know personally, and most of you do too, the constant desire to live and be our true selves NEVER, NEVER, NEVER goes away - no matter how hard we wish it would go away.

And as I know from personal experience, and most of you do too, each of us reach or will come to our breaking point -- the point where we either have to transition or we have to die. I came so very close to dying last year. I chose to live, which meant that I HAD TO transition or commit suicide.

This story is so typical of so many of us.

I wish in her case that the outcome had a happier ending, but I sure do understand the dynamics of what she went through.

JoAnne Wheeler

[LisaM]

This story breaks my heart every time I read it and I seem to want to read it over and over again. My story could be Christine Daniels' story. Like so many of us there are so many similarities in how we have felt and dreamed all of our lives.

This story is the first one I have read about Mike /Christine that focuses on his detransitioning because of his love for his ex-spouse, Lisa Dillman.

I would be interested in hearing what other GGs think about her portrayal (Lisa Dillman) in this article. I truly realize that having a spouse tell you that he is transexual must be extremely difficult. But I found the end of the article difficult because they excluded Mike/Christine's transgender friends--and I also found it difficult when she thanked Amy LeCoe (the one transgender friend allowed at the funeral) for helping Mike/Christine. Where was she during Mike's downtrend? Did she ever love him and what do we owe each other as spouses? Even when we hurt each other. I know this isn't fair but the article made me feel that Lisa Dillman was glad that her trauma was over now that Mike/Christine was gone.

BTW, I know my last statement was harsh but it is the feeling I received from the article and I think it was the writer's intention. That is why I am curious as to other's opinions.

[Billijo49504]

That is really something Kitty. His was a high profile case. But I just wonder how many people end it all, either because they have changed and wish they hadn't, or wish they could change and can't. I've known a few people that have killed themselves and a few that I know that had come close to it. They end their problems, but if they only knew all the pain and hurt they leave behind for their families and friends...BJ :love:

[Ana5551]

Heartwrenching...

[hopingsecret]

I could write an essay about what I thought about and what that article ment to me. But I can't, not now. Too many issues. All I'll say, is that, screw it. I'll just shut up. It's probably the best thing I could ever do.

[kittypw GG]

It struck me that he seemed caught up in, and focused on transition. The transgendered community seemed to support him and delighted in his high profile immage. In fact he sort of blamed them for using him. He was so focused on transition that he forgot to figure out how he was going to live his life. He lost sight of his goals and desires beyond that. Once transition was achieved, it did not make him happy. He seemed trapped in a sad sort of hell between both worlds. He was too sensitive about his ability to pass as a women. He obviously could not accept the limitations of his genetic male body. The truth being that most don't really pass as a genetic female. Should this really be the goal? Shouldn't acceptance of ones self be the goal? Perhaps transition with more of a focus on what kind of life one wants to lead? So many questions here.

I, of course, identified with his wife. Lisa was living her own hell. The transexual is not the only one who is tormented. It is a very difficult spot to be in. Nobody else that I know of has my experience. Not one person can relate to how seriously sad this situation makes me. The transexual has so much support on his side but the wife usually suffers alone. The spouse has to deal with the death of her marriage, the death of her husband and the shock of everyone who knew them as a couple. I had to deal with everyone telling me everything he was doing, what he was wearing and how everyone made fun of him when he left whatever public place he was at. All the jokes and humiliation piled on top of the serious sadness from the loss of an imagined life. The pain on both sides is tremendeous................

What are the lessons to be learned from this tragic story?

[Frances]

It struck me that he seemed caught up in, and focused on transition. The transgendered community seemed to support him and delighted in his high profile immage. In fact he sort of blamed them for using him. He was so focused on transition that he forgot to figure out how he was going to live his life. He lost sight of his goals and desires beyond that. Once transition was achieved, it did not make him happy. He seemed trapped in a sad sort of hell between both worlds. He was too sensitive about his ability to pass as a women. He obviously could not accept the limitations of his genetic male body. The truth being that most don't really pass as a genetic female. Should this really be the goal? Shouldn't acceptance of ones self be the goal? Perhaps transition with more of a focus on what kind of life one wants to lead? So many questions here.

I, of course, identified with his wife. Lisa was living her own hell. The transexual is not the only one who is tormented. It is a very difficult spot to be in. Nobody else that I know of has my experience. Not one person can relate to how seriously sad this situation makes me. The transexual has so much support on his side but the wife usually suffers alone. The spouse has to deal with the death of her marriage, the death of her husband and the shock of everyone who knew them as a couple. I had to deal with everyone telling me everything he was doing, what he was wearing and how everyone made fun of him when he left whatever public place he was at. All the jokes and humiliation piled on top of the serious sadness from the loss of an imagined life. The pain on both sides is tremendeous................

What are the lessons to be learned from this tragic story?


kittypw GG,

The truth is most trans women pass very well. The ones that do not pass are the only ones people notice. You are making a projection here. Many people live as the other gender and go unoticed their entire lives.

You have mentionned a few times on this forum your idea that "Shouldn't acceptance of ones self be the goal?", but you are not trans. It is impossible for a cis-gendered person to understand what a trans person feels. Maybe it is your wish for your husband, but I personally do not want to hear this on a forum meant for trans people. It is a message thrown at us by cis people continuously in society. Nobody asks a person to justify their cancer and need for medical intervention.

Your usage of male pronouns shows that you do not believe trans women to be women at all: "The transexual has so much support on his side but the wife usually suffers alone", which is insulting.

In regards to Christine, her transition may have been rushed, and transitioning in the spotlight is very hard as Renee Richards often stated. Christine may not have done all the preperation to ensure a successful transition, and holding on to a public career may have been too much.

I think most people here are very aware of the suffering of our SO's, and have suffered greatly from the guilt of being something that everyone else does not want us to be. For many, it does come to transition or suicide. We do try to accept ourselves as we are, even entering into relationships because that is what is expected, until it is no longer possible to do so. I did it for 40 years.

[kittypw GG]

It is impossible for a cis-gendered person to understand what a trans person feels.

.

If your statement is true then it is also impossible for a trans person to know what it feels like to be a women let alone a spouse of a trans person.

I called Mike a he because in the end he wanted to be called Mike. In regards to Renee Richards, I believe she wrote a book on how she regreted transition.

[Frances]

If your statement is true then it is also impossible for a trans person to know what it feels like to be a women let alone a spouse of a trans person.

I called Mike a he because in the end he wanted to be called Mike. In regards to Renee Richards, I believe she wrote a book on how she regreted transition.

I have both of Renee's books. She wrote the second one because so many people assumed she regretted transition. She says in her book No Way Renee, that she did not regret transition, but she regreted transitioning as a public figure.

Trans women know what it feels to be women because they are women. Granted, we do not know what it feels like to be socialised as women and have to learn to interact with the world as women later on in life. If you woke up tomorrow with a male body, would you suddenly feel like a man?

Try to understand that as you knew you were female at a very young age, that it is the same for trans women. I do not know anything about your SO, but most women on this site will tell you that they felt female from the earliest memories, and then the entire world started telling them otherwise and forcing them to live as the perceived gender.

Now, there are men who wish to be trans and are not really, and transition would be ill-advised in their case. But please, show some respect to women born transsexual. If you do not think that transsexuals exist what are you doing here?

[BRANDYJ]

What a tragic story. I was not aware of Mike until i read this story. But I have always felt that being a TS that wants to transition has got to be one of the hardest struggles a human can put themselves through. It makes me glad that I am a CD that has never considered going any further. I can understand and empathize with Mike and his/her struggles. In the end it was his love of his wife that made him regret his decision to transition. Even IF I wanted to transition, losing the lady that I love deeply and that loves me would be the one main reason I'd never transition,
Thanks for sharing the link to a very sad and telling story of one person's struggle. I hope it helps some here that may be considering transition and what it may cost them in the way of family or a wife or loved one.

[Sallee]

I have heard the story before but it was good to visit it again I think it shows the difficulty with all folks touched by a transition certainly the one who is transitioning. It is a big step that if taken has to be taken with lots of thought and counseling.I don't understand it. But I do think Ms Daniels was right in saying she felt she through it all away. there were obviously more issues than just gender although they were probably the biggest part. I guess the warning is "Don't get caught up in the pink fog"

[kittypw GG]

. I know this isn't fair but the article made me feel that Lisa Dillman was glad that her trauma was over now that Mike/Christine was gone.



I did not get that feeling from the article but to be fair to Lisa, Mike was obviously a tormented man. We don't know what they went through but I can tell you that if she did feel a little relieved it would be a common feeling among people dealing with someone who is chronically depressed or has any sort of chronic illness mental or physical. The care givers anguish over the persons pain and have a sense of helplessness because there is nothing they can do to fix the problem.

Mike was transitioning, Lisa could not stay married. It's a lot to ask of a spouse. We can't fault Lisa. Like I said there is not a lot of suport for the spouse of a trans person and the general population don't really want to hear about the problem. They are more inclined to make fun of it. That used to really tear me up. Fill me with confusion. I flip flopped between hating him and really feeling sorry for his pain. If my ex was a wonderful man otherwise, I mean without his mental illness??? I don't know which way I would have gone. We would probably be freinds at least, I'll never know.

I can sort of see why they excluded all the other trans freinds. With the way Mike felt about being used by the trans community ...perhaps they felt it would take the funeral off on a wrong note or introduce dramma that would detract from their grieving. I can see why they kept it intimate and personal.

[Veronica_Jean]

Frances,

I think the intent behind the following comment was directed toward the acceptance of any trans person of themselves, not trying to say that He should have accepted that he was intended to be a male.




He was too sensitive about his ability to pass as a women. He obviously could not accept the limitations of his genetic male body. The truth being that most don't really pass as a genetic female. Should this really be the goal? Shouldn't acceptance of ones self be the goal?




Although I understand your sensitivity, I also believe we (trans folks) have a place (Safe Haven) here to express all the raw feelings we have about these subjects. This is not a restricted forum area so all opinions should and are welcomed.



,

You have mentionned a few times on this forum your idea that "Shouldn't acceptance of ones self be the goal?", but you are not trans. It is impossible for a cis-gendered person to understand what a trans person feels. Maybe it is your wish for your husband, but I personally do not want to hear this on a forum meant for trans people. It is a message thrown at us by cis people continuously in society. Nobody asks a person to justify their cancer and need for medical intervention.



Also, isn't acceptance of ourselves one of the more difficult challenges we as trans face? Trying to be genuine in our expression and following our heart to be a whole person rather than a socially influenced facade that we construct? Is this not a description of accepting ones self?

kittypw GG,

This article is the best description I have read about the unfortunate tragedy of Mike/Christine. Clearly s/he was conflicted about what s/he needed to live as a whole person, and this conflict was resolved through suicide.

It is sad that Mike/Christine was unable to recognize the amount of loss that potentially would be associated with transition. Those that I have known to succeed in transition face the complete loss of everything, that eventually tends to not be that drastic.

I think the worst part is those that will point to this as an example of how trans folk are confused and cannot be happy after transition. Although there are many examples of success, those that believe trans is a curable mental illness seem to try and make any situation like this one fit their ideal.

Veronica

[AKAMichelle]

Christine got caught up in all of the pressure from being famous without understanding how difficult it would make things. The heartache for Lisa proved to be too much. I think this story only goes to show how careful we have to be with TS going through transition. To help them find their way at their speed and not ours.

I think this story is more about dying of a brokenheart for Lisa than anything else. Lisa was that one piece which she couldn't live without.

[morgan51]

I know another trans woman who above all else misses a good relationship with another. I have had to look at my own relationship/transition in that light and it is not comfortable. My friend suggested I not transition further if there was any way around it as I would be unbearably lonley as the result. I am considering her testimony as it applies to my situation I know my relationship with my wife is something I value above all in life but is it viable to not transition and live as a male? I am very conflicted and do not know. What a thought provoking story for me. Thankyou for sharing, sad as it is. My heart goes out to the family and friends.

[kittypw GG]

Frances,

I think the intent behind the following comment was directed toward the acceptance of any trans person of themselves, not trying to say that He should have accepted that he was intended to be a male.

veronica
Exactly!
Thank you Veronica. I truely believe that to be a whole person you can't deny or ignore that you were born a genetic male. It should be embraced and accepted along with your feelings. If you can't accept all of who you are autonomy and wholeness will forever be illusive and will not lead to balance and a happy life. This is what I mean by acceptance. We all have things that we need to be realistic about.

And just for the record Frances. I was not aware of being a girl from early on. I was, however aware of being me. I did not figure out the differences of being boy or girl until much later in life.

[Frances]

Exactly!
Thank you Veronica. I truely believe that to be a whole person you can't deny or ignore that you were born a genetic male. It should be embraced and accepted along with your feelings. If you can't accept all of who you are autonomy and wholeness will forever be illusive and will not lead to balance and a happy life. This is what I mean by acceptance. We all have things that we need to be realistic about.

And just for the record Frances. I was not aware of being a girl from early on. I was, however aware of being me. I did not figure out the differences of being boy or girl until much later in life.

According to psychologists and psychiatrists, gender identity emerges by the age of 2 or 3. If you felt fine with people interacting with you as a girl or dressing you in girl clothes, then your identity and body were concordant, and that means you are not a transsexual person.

Trans women are all too aware that they are male-bodied, but what does accepting being born a genetic male mean exactly? Should we keep our body hair and facial hair? Should we walk around presenting as females with a crown of hair? Should we not take hormones? Should we not have SRS? There is a big difference between trans women and cross-dressers, but you don't seem to grasp it. From your own words:

"I have lost my words and my mind on this topic. Please don't hate me because this comes from my heart.....why can't there be acceptance for who you are? Find balance, find peace without the drastic mutilation of ones body? I am desprate to know. I am hurt beyond reason on the topic."

Your point of view is incredibly biased on this subject. I do not think you are an ally. Being transsexual is not an end result, it is an innate condition. We are born transsexual, which equates to a life sentence in a prison we cannot escape or ever leave. Since societal pressures are so great to not transition or to not be ourselves, some of us try to repress it until suicide becomes the only way to escape said prison.

A father killed his 17 month toddler recently because he did not act like a boy! The pressure is incredibly intense to pretend to be MEN, not male. Maleness happens on its own, and is quite horrifying for the trans person. Not only our family denies our identity, but our bodies betray us. So yes, we try to erase as much of that maleness as we can.

So, are you trying to understand? Or are you trying to fix us, in frustration for not being able to discourage your husband? I am desprate to know.

[Veronica_Jean]

Kittypw GG,

I wanted to clarify myself as well.


Exactly!
Thank you Veronica. I truely believe that to be a whole person you can't deny or ignore that you were born a genetic male. It should be embraced and accepted along with your feelings. If you can't accept all of who you are autonomy and wholeness will forever be illusive and will not lead to balance and a happy life. This is what I mean by acceptance. We all have things that we need to be realistic about.



I believe we each are born with a gender imprint somewhere along the spectrum. As we grow older, each of us begins to realize how aligned our imprinted gender is with our physical bodies. Our understanding and reaction to the alignment is individual and influenced by the society in which we are raised. The time needed to realize our imprinting compared with others is also individual. Integrating our imprinting to our physical bodies is something everyone must do not just trans people.

Considering the bias towards binary gender representation and existence in most current societies, anyone that is too far from the established norm boundary has to choose which one they find most comfortable.

Physical reproductive characteristics (organs) and capabilities (fertility) are a poor method of determining where the boundary of gender exists, but is often used for that purpose. Stereotypical definitions of gender expression are nothing more than adoption of unrealistic standards used as an attempt to maintain a visual boundary of a gender norm.

Having said all that, the phrase "Being born a genetic male" is not a description of fact to be accepted only a description of physical characteristics which influence our physical development and potential reproductive roll. As a result of being born a genetic male is the we are raised differently in our society, which leads to social differences and expectations. As trans women we do not share that societal upbringing and often there is much re-training that occurs with transition.

All men and women must accept physical characteristics they feel are outside the norm for each gender. Trans women are no different. There are many that are petite, well formed figures with lovely voices and fine features. There are also many that are large, poorly formed figures, that struggle to sound feminine. There are many non-trans women that also fit both of those descriptions. A portion of the Serenity Prayer says it best:


God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.


Acceptance comes from finding where we all are able to be comfortable, and then ignoring the rest of the people in this world that are more consumed with finding fault with our comfort then they are finding their own level of comfort and accepting that there are, and always will be differences, in the physical appearance of those with the same gender imprinting, despite their body at birth.

Veronica

[kittypw GG]

Ok so.....what could Mike have done to accept himself so that he was not compelled to fall appart when someone recognized him as a "man in a dress"?

Im just saying that if he had continued transition and accepted the limitations of his obvious male body would he have taken comments better?

Maybe Mike was not transexual at all? I believe that in some cases, like my ex, who have borderline personality disorder there is a shattered identity or lack of indentity, where transition may leave the person just as confused or even worse off than before.

Frances there is no need for so much anger. Im just trying to get through my life and make sense of it just like you. It's just dialogue about a tragic story. :hugs:

[Frances]

Thank you Kittypaw for the emoticon.

While I may advocate the removal of the GID diagnosis from the DSM, I strongly believe in the need for therapy where transition is concerned, especially in the case of late transitioners like myself. I fought my entire life against transition until I could no longer do it. By that time, I had accumulated quite a set of fears that had to be faced and dealt with before transitioning socially. My final therapy (the one leading to my transition) lasted five years, and included individual and group sessions every single week at a total cost of $15,000. My end goal was not transition, but making the white noise in my head finally stop. I did transition, but received the approvals for hormones and SRS only after the hospital was sure that I could handle what would come next.

During therapy, I saw a few people whom I did not believe for a second they were trans, but rather were holding onto a fantasy. I keep encountering people like all the time. They wear super short skirts, with incredibly high heels, and are obsessed with their nails and other feminine accoutrements, while speaking in a very masculine way, and freaking out when people on the street point at them. They often keep insisting that they are not gay as they are attracted to women. (Wouldn't that actually make them gay if they were women?)

Unless a trans person is lucky enough to have a family like Kelly's, beatings and demeaning talk is usually the way it goes. That is what produces primary and secondary transsexuals, not autogynephilia. So many trans women try to live as men for as long as they can, and learn to fool everyone into thinking that they are men so well that transsexuality becomes inconceivable to others. Also, concomitant disorders are not uncommon, like personality disorders. Try to imagine living as the other gender for 40 years. It will make anyone go a little crazy.

Are Christine and your ex transsexuals or not? I have no idea. I do not know what kind of therapy they had prior to the real life experience, but transitioning in the spotlight must be incredibly hard. Christine may not have looked like a man in dress (she did not on the photos I saw), but how could anyone see anything else since they knew her past already.

As for myself, I am stealth and never get read, but I never wear dresses either. I dress like most women I see at the mall or at work, and go unoticed. Every change from the hormones was a great relief, and concordant with my identity. I am not happier, but the pain and the white noise have stopped. I did not want to transition, and it put me in bankruptcy, but it was not a matter of choice.

[Ze]

I did not want to transition, and it put me in bankruptcy, but it was not a matter of choice.

This is an excellent point that I can really identify with. I don't want to transition, either. I don't want to add on so many more financial troubles and family backstabbings and disowns and abuse and ridicule and exclusion and pain and anguish, both mental and physical.

And yet there's nothing I can do about it. I've tried every trick in the book to avoid it. It didn't work. And it takes a lot for a stubborn perfectionist such as myself to admit that.

NONE of us wants this, but every little bit of acceptance and love and help that we can get can ease our suffering just that much. We have enough problems with our own bodies and heads; we don't need outside factors contributing even more.

[Veronica_Jean]

Ok so.....what could Mike have done to accept himself so that he was not compelled to fall appart when someone recognized him as a "man in a dress"?

Im just saying that if he had continued transition and accepted the limitations of his obvious male body would he have taken comments better?



This seems completely off the mark. The article identified many potential problems including the Vanity Fair incident, but also had this:

Although many issues were at play at this point, one stood out: Penner repeatedly told friends his return to a male lifestyle was a last-ditch effort to reunite with his wife in some way.

It seems that being identified as a "man in a dress" was much less of a factor when compared to the loss of his relationship with his wife. Clearly from the article, Christine had a lot of focus on the image of a woman, which tends to concern many of us when we see it. That tends to be more of the focus of a CD then a TS. GG's from time to time don't resemble "the image of a woman" either, but it doesn't change how we go about living our lives.

I am in RLE, having transitioned at the same job where I continue to work. I am not stealth, and I still struggle with my voice, size, and my weight. It does not change the direction I need to go in my life, even if I got stares, pointing and laughs, or people talking behind my back. That happens to people all the time about all sorts of things.

Perhaps neither Christine nor your ex, were ready to move forward. I am not a therapist or health professional.

Veronica

[kym]

I'm at a loss for words for the most part. The article shows very clearly the tormenting pressure of being a transgendered individual who chooses transition to align their body with their spirit, their soul. We are all sisters in this world and we need to act like sisters and support one another simply because some of us are ok handling the pressure and others can not. It is tragic and almost criminal what Christine's spouse did to her by filing for divorce, but whats even worse is the fact that the transgendered in her life saw her transition as an opportunity to bring our life and the hell it can be to the forefront for all the wrong reasons with one refreshing exception. So many of us go through our own personal version of hell and no one wants to help us with it.

[Byanca]

During therapy, I saw a few people whom I did not believe for a second they were trans, but rather were holding onto a fantasy. I keep encountering people like all the time. They wear super short skirts, with incredibly high heels, and are obsessed with their nails and other feminine accoutrements, while speaking in a very masculine way, and freaking out when people on the street point at them.

I think abnormal clothing style is like trans persons. That's just something you get used to, and then find out it's no big deal. It seems to be more a sub area. Both GGs and others are affected, a form of fetish. I probably spot 20 GGs every day that is like this. You also have the eccentric people in this category, the more feminine GGs and trans, that surprisingly seems to be more robust in mentality, and not to aware of the femininity. It's just something they like. I dunno. Like witches?



--
The article came off as a tragedy. Christine didn't seem to be robust enough. The higher you climb, the higher you fall. I don't get the religion/church part of the equation. I can't help but picture lambs that go to slaughter. I can't imagine what this form of beliefs would have done to me. These are the TS people my hearth truly go out to. I don't understand what religion has to do with anything, except as a fairytale. It's truly ironic that religious people are not accepting of TS people. TS people at least have something routed in science and reality. It should really be the other way around. That it is religious people that ask for understanding and compassion for their misguided views.

I'm annoyed by the funeral. And it upsets me when people acts this way. Like not keeping it open for all that would like to attend.

I don't have an opinion on the wife. She should be free to do as she pleased, the same way as Christine/Mike should.

I think the most important thing to learn from this is to think forward. Forget about the past. It's finished. Adjust and adapt.

[Frances]

Huh?

[kittypw GG]

It is tragic and almost criminal what Christine's spouse did to her by filing for divorce,
So many of us go through our own personal version of hell and no one wants to help us with it.

You are wrong to say that Lisa divorcing Mike was Criminal. What the hell, you must not even be able to think beyond yourself. He changed everything for her. She had no say and never ever gave him the idea that she would want any part of it. That was clear when he was just crossdressing. She has a right to have the life she desires for herself as well. Divorcing him was the best way she could have supported him. We don't know if lisa sought any kind of support for herself, but if she did there would have been very little. Most therapist don't understand this "phenomenon". The general population just make this kind of thing a joke. If Mike was so tormented, a life with him outside of his gender identity problems may have been too much to bear. It's not easy living with someone who is mentally ill. Blameing Lisa is just plain wrong. She obviously loved him, she was at his funeral.

There is lots of help for the transgendered. What do you mean no one wants to help with it???

[Ze]

I'm starting to get pretty sick of some of the insulting and negative comments I'm seeing here. Debate is debate, but keep the shit out of it.

If this thread's only purpose is to fling insults and to fuel bitterness and hatred, it's going down soon.

[Stephenie S]

Let me just say in Kitty's defense that she struggled long and hard with her husband's crossdressing and transgender feelings. Kitty has been here a long time and during that time she was one of the most supportive spouses I know. It finally became too much for her to bear, but she tried harder than most to be a supportive spouse. Cut her some slack, please. She has been through a lot.

Stephie

[kym]

You are wrong to say that Lisa divorcing Mike was Criminal. What the hell, you must not even be able to think beyond yourself. He changed everything for her. She had no say and never ever gave him the idea that she would want any part of it. That was clear when he was just crossdressing. She has a right to have the life she desires for herself as well. Divorcing him was the best way she could have supported him. We don't know if lisa sought any kind of support for herself, but if she did there would have been very little. Most therapist don't understand this "phenomenon". The general population just make this kind of thing a joke. If Mike was so tormented, a life with him outside of his gender identity problems may have been too much to bear. It's not easy living with someone who is mentally ill. Blameing Lisa is just plain wrong. She obviously loved him, she was at his funeral.

There is lots of help for the transgendered. What do you mean no one wants to help with it???

My reasoning behind my statement is one of been there, done that. My ex-wife was one who initially said "I'm supportive of your crossdressing" then changed her mind in mid stream. It was personally and mentally devastating to me, and if it wasn't for a few good friends and a damned good therapist I wouldn't be around today. Turns out that my ex was mentally ill and I let her illness affect me and become mine in some way. The best way I could have been supported by her wasn't going to happen, transition was an option for me and still is, but it would have taken her staying by my side through the whole thing. Yes we would have ended up divorcing but we could have also stayed together as a couple, however that wasn't an option in her mind as she was not a lesbian, which I do understand. From all indications, Lisa did not want to support Christine in that way which was the start to Christine's mental decline. Then Christine's "friends" that were around at the start of the whole thing seemed to have disappeared with one exception, so in this case as in many no one was around to help Christine when she needed it the most. We need to stick together as a community and help each other out, there are so many of us out there going through this kind of situation simply because we are not readily accepted by society as a whole.

[Byanca]

You are wrong to say that Lisa divorcing Mike was Criminal. What the hell, you must not even be able to think beyond yourself. He changed everything for her. She had no say and never ever gave him the idea that she would want any part of it. That was clear when he was just crossdressing.

This goes both ways. She probably never gave Cristine any idea either how judgemental she was. Like how could Cristine know the rejection?

There is imo no one in the right here. It's just a lot of emotions. And both parties try to look out for their own interests, and it's progressing into this form of competition.

The wife won. I'm not sure it's more complicated then that.

I do wish that things didn't have to progress like this, but unfortunately they often seem to do.

[Veronica_Jean]

You know the reality is that both of them, Lisa and Mike/Christine were not supportive of each other in a situation where that should not be a big surprise.

Lisa didn't agree to travel through the rest of her life with a woman for a spouse, and Mike/Christine didn't agree to live in misery trying to be the man and supportive husband either.

Why would anyone think that Mike/Christine should not transition to find fulfillment in his/her life? Why would anyone think that Lisa should not find happiness as best she could given her future, her dreams, and everything she expected just blew up in her face through no fault of hers?

Differences between couples happen for a lot of reasons, and as a result they divorce. Transitioning brings along with it lots of stress on the best of relationships, and the ones that normally hold each other, are the ones in the middle. It is a frustrating and unfair situation for everyone involved. No one escapes this without lots of pain.

It seems to me that Lisa was trying to move forward as best she could and let Mike/Christine do the same. There are gender therapists that work with both to help each of them deal with the issues. Again, this is to help and support each person, not find a way for them to accept each other. There is nothing easy about dealing with gender issues for any of us on either side of the emotional freight train.

As adults we get the freedom and the responsibility that goes with it too. Yes, we reach out for each other for support. Yes was ask for tolerance to allow us to be accepted as the gender we are despite our bodies. That in no way diminishes the problems and issues that the spouse (no matter the gender) that is left in the wake of the tornado that passed through. They experience guilt, anger, betrayal, self-blame, and a host of other things too. They sometimes lash out and try to find any way to get back the future they are losing or lost. Likely its just not possible, and they too have to live with that, just as we have to live with all the loss we face.

Mike/Christine just could not bear the future of the life she was creating and desperately tried to find a way back to some future that was easier in her mind. When that seemed not possible is it really such a surprise that he/she did what nearly everyone of us has tried, or planned, or nearly completed.

Trying to understand is a good thing. Trying to lay blame is just not worth the effort.

Veronica

[kittypw GG]

Veronica...so wise and smart. I loved all of what you had to say.

I never thought of going to a gender therapist myself..........perhaps that would have been best, at least they would have had an idea about what I was going through. It would have given me a different perspective as I looked for answers. I know that my situation was somewhat unique as my ex had additional issues other than the gender identity but maybe I could have quelched my burning desire to understand why? Why all this had to happen the way it did. For Mike and Lisa it was such a tragic and drastic outcome. Perhaps there were other issues at play there as well.

Thank you all for all the comments
:hugs::love:

[Kelly DeWinter]

I've seen this story before and talked to a few therapists who have read about her. One of the most common issues to our community that Christine was dealing with was severe depression. Couple that with transition,loss of family,loss of job,the chemical changes occuring during transition, articles written about you by your peers, an epic failed photoshoot for a national magazine, and its no wonder this story ended the way it did.

Once a severly depressed person withdraws into themselves and cuts off contact with others, its imperative to do everything you can to get them help. Her friend was a true friend to the end.

I THINK THIS STORY IS MORE ABOUT WHAT WE CAN LEARN FROM HER STORY.

kelly