Taking the pain out of going out first time….

[FionaAlexis]

So you’ve got your act together. You’ve developed a look and you don’t have a gait like John Wayne that says MAN in capital letters. And you think that you may get close to passing as a woman. Well you’re close enough for jazz let's say…..and now you want to test the water in the real world

So what’s the old business adage? – if you fail to plan – you plan to fail. Well it’s the same here.

While many of us have just gone out on impulse – I suggest if you’ve never done it before then careful planning and taking it by easy stages will make it a better experience. At the end of the day, you want to feel what its like to be female for a while…..and to build confidence.

Your planning will cover - what to wear and what not to wear, when is best, where to go, how long to spend – what you will be doing. …..the possible problems and pitfalls…your exit and re-entry strategy. And what and who to avoid when you’re out there....your disaster plan.

You’ve been walking around in high heels since you were knee high to a stiletto – but walking in heels on the street or even in a tiled shopping mall is quite different. Apart from the uneven surfaces, changing acoustics, highly polished floors and escalators that can trap fine heels – there’s the likelihood that your knees will turn to jelly for a while. Just getting out of the car in a skirt without looking clumsy is hard enough without heels. Sensible shoes? Maybe.

And maybe you’re thinking it would be less risky and less of a challenge if I wear female clothes that tend to be more unisex or a even little more masculine – and that’s fine if you really want to look androgynous. But let’s go back to why you’re doing this – you’re doing it because you believe you’ve reached a good standard of transformation, you want to test that view, you want to experience what it feels like to be female and, ultimately, you want to be able to go out in female mode quite confidently. Also my view is that, at best, you want to pass and, at worst, you want to create enough ambiguity in the minds of those around you that they will very unsure - and thus muted. Dressing androgynously only removes that element of doubt.

Blending in or dressing up? The first time you go out you should try to blend in because you will be nervous and self conscious. Everything will seem quite strange - you are out of your comfort zone. And you will interpret every sideways look as ‘OMG! I’m failing – get me out of here’ – so the more you blend in, the less looks you will get and the more quickly you will become relaxed. So its not the best day to pull out that classic polka dot ‘50s day dress you’ve been yearning to show off. Of course, if you are planning to go out in a business precinct then ‘blending in’ may very well be ‘dressing up’.

Pay attention to detail. Glam make up that works for flash camera photography is too highly coloured for daytime on the street – unless you want to earn some extra money. The right shape sunglasses can work well in reshaping your face as well as adding to your feeling of anonymity. Glasses with more feminine style frames can also help especially if you don't normally wear glasses. Women often wear wedding rings, eternity rings or engagement rings. Wear a soft cup bra and let the breastforms move like they are supposed to. Surprisingly most women do have hips. If you are doing the business woman thing then have the business women props – like the briefcase, the tote, the water bottle and the mobile phone/ cell phone which gives you something to do. If you are a housewife out shopping then have shopping bags with stuff in them. People fidget when they’re out and you will look more natural if you are taking a call, checking your messages, drinking your water, checking out the shop windows etc. rather than your wide eyes darting left to right to see who’s looking as you plough along the street. On the other hand don’t have so much happening that you become flustered.

Check the weather before selecting your clothes and wig. Wrap skirts can be a big mistake on a windy day. Long haired wigs will blow around in even light winds and that can be uncomfortable and distracting when you aren’t used to it. Also when selecting your wig, keep in mind that you are planning to go out again and again – and you will need to have a consistent look. Women do change hairstyles but they don’t swap from short blonde to long brunette over a short time frame. In fact most women may colour or modify their styles but few seem to change them radically.

When? I guess most of us think that the dark of night is the best option and it probably is for those who are wanting to dress in club wear or for those who haven’t reached a good level of transformation. But you want to be a female in the real world – in the daytime. There is a lot to be said for going out in the busiest time of day to the busiest place. Generally people will be so much in a rush and so filled with their own concerns that they will pay little attention to you – but close up and personal in a crowded street can be quite unnerving. The quieter times of mid morning and mid afternoon are probably easier to cope with first up. Week days are also better than weekends as women are too casual at weekends.

Where? I see no point in going out dressed on secluded back roads or anywhere else devoid of other human beings – its just a bigger closet. But whereever you go – go with a sense of purpose, real or mythical. Plan your route and be familiar with the area. It may pay you to walk your route in male mode just prior to coming back in female mode. Check for the 'unexpected' – the street sellers, the charity collectors, the market researchers etc. who may approach you. It’s not the big disasters that will happen and throw you off guard – its more likely to be these people or the road maintenance crews or the over friendly toddlers etc. etc. when you are faced with that horrible dilemma of having to speak or look very rude.

Exit & Re-entry. If you are leaving from and returning to your home then these may be the risky times for you especially if you are driving a recognizable car. I am lucky inasmuch as my home sits beside a municipal building and car park and I have side exits to the car park. But there are many options – like parking the car a distance away. Or going to a motel.

Make spare keys and keep them permanently in your pocket book/purse.

I know one friend who took a change of male clothes in their car in case of an ‘emergency’. It’s not something I would recommend as I think the embarrassment of being caught betwixt and between in the back of the car or the public toilet would be greater than being discovered fully en femme.

Over coming first time nerves – your local pharmacy/drug store will have non prescription medications for occasional anxiety related to public speaking or flying or job interviews – they are worth a try.

These are simply my miscellaneous ideas and I don’t hold myself out as any kind of an expert on the subject but there seem to be a lot of posts about going out - but no nitty grittys. I’m sure there are others here who can add volumes to my thoughts.

Fiona xx

[Natalie x]

Good thread, Fiona, thanks for that. It's all good advice, and I can endorse most of it from my experiences.

[Toyah]

Wow organising its a good job I have never braved the outside, I am terrably un organised.
A few points than I am not to sure about.
Would it not be best first time to go with someone else and is shopping really the only viable option.
About how long should the first trip be and would it be best to go somewhere new or somewhere you know

[paulaN]

good thread and very good advice, something for all us girls to think about next time out or first time out. thanks for sharing.

[Emily Ann Brown]

I think you covered about everything I learned by just doing it. Except HAVE FUN !!! And don't take Natalie with you (giggle giggle).


Emily Ann

[Natalie x]

:p

(please take me, I'll be good)

[Billijo49504]

Just wanted to say thanks for all the advice. You sure did a lot of thought on the subject, and it is appreciated. I really learned a lot.

[jerri kelly]

i could not of said it better myself. that is exactly how i developed my outings myself. after getting over anxiety and gaining confidence the feeling you get walking in public is undesrible. it is sad that most crossdressers stay in. i wish every sister could experiance that pleasure. love to all sisters jerri kelly.

[tifftg]

I always try to work out ahead of time in boy mode what my day enfemme will be like. Your suggestions are right on target. Thanks for putting it all together.

Tiff

[Angela Burke]

So you’ve got your act together. You’ve developed a look and you don’t have a gait like John Wayne that says MAN in capital letters. And you think that you may get close to passing as a woman. Well you’re close enough for jazz let's say…..and now you want to test the water in the real world

So what’s the old business adage? – if you fail to plan – you plan to fail. Well it’s the same here.

While many of us have just gone out on impulse – I suggest if you’ve never done it before then careful planning and taking it by easy stages will make it a better experience. At the end of the day, you want to feel what its like to be female for a while…..and to build confidence.

Your planning will cover - what to wear and what not to wear, when is best, where to go, how long to spend – what you will be doing. …..the possible problems and pitfalls…your exit and re-entry strategy. And what and who to avoid when you’re out there....your disaster plan.

You’ve been walking around in high heels since you were knee high to a stiletto – but walking in heels on the street or even in a tiled shopping mall is quite different. Apart from the uneven surfaces, changing acoustics, highly polished floors and escalators that can trap fine heels – there’s the likelihood that your knees will turn to jelly for a while. Just getting out of the car in a skirt without looking clumsy is hard enough without heels. Sensible shoes? Maybe.

And maybe you’re thinking it would be less risky and less of a challenge if I wear female clothes that tend to be more unisex or a even little more masculine – and that’s fine if you really want to look androgynous. But let’s go back to why you’re doing this – you’re doing it because you believe you’ve reached a good standard of transformation, you want to test that view, you want to experience what it feels like to be female and, ultimately, you want to be able to go out in female mode quite confidently. Also my view is that, at best, you want to pass and, at worst, you want to create enough ambiguity in the minds of those around you that they will very unsure - and thus muted. Dressing androgynously only removes that element of doubt.

Blending in or dressing up? The first time you go out you should try to blend in because you will be nervous and self conscious. Everything will seem quite strange - you are out of your comfort zone. And you will interpret every sideways look as ‘OMG! I’m failing – get me out of here’ – so the more you blend in, the less looks you will get and the more quickly you will become relaxed. So its not the best day to pull out that classic polka dot ‘50s day dress you’ve been yearning to show off. Of course, if you are planning to go out in a business precinct then ‘blending in’ may very well be ‘dressing up’.

Pay attention to detail. Glam make up that works for flash camera photography is too highly coloured for daytime on the street – unless you want to earn some extra money. The right shape sunglasses can work well in reshaping your face as well as adding to your feeling of anonymity. Glasses with more feminine style frames can also help especially if you don't normally wear glasses. Women often wear wedding rings, eternity rings or engagement rings. Wear a soft cup bra and let the breastforms move like they are supposed to. Surprisingly most women do have hips. If you are doing the business woman thing then have the business women props – like the briefcase, the tote, the water bottle and the mobile phone/ cell phone which gives you something to do. If you are a housewife out shopping then have shopping bags with stuff in them. People fidget when they’re out and you will look more natural if you are taking a call, checking your messages, drinking your water, checking out the shop windows etc. rather than your wide eyes darting left to right to see who’s looking as you plough along the street. On the other hand don’t have so much happening that you become flustered.

Check the weather before selecting your clothes and wig. Wrap skirts can be a big mistake on a windy day. Long haired wigs will blow around in even light winds and that can be uncomfortable and distracting when you aren’t used to it. Also when selecting your wig, keep in mind that you are planning to go out again and again – and you will need to have a consistent look. Women do change hairstyles but they don’t swap from short blonde to long brunette over a short time frame. In fact most women may colour or modify their styles but few seem to change them radically.

When? I guess most of us think that the dark of night is the best option and it probably is for those who are wanting to dress in club wear or for those who haven’t reached a good level of transformation. But you want to be a female in the real world – in the daytime. There is a lot to be said for going out in the busiest time of day to the busiest place. Generally people will be so much in a rush and so filled with their own concerns that they will pay little attention to you – but close up and personal in a crowded street can be quite unnerving. The quieter times of mid morning and mid afternoon are probably easier to cope with first up. Week days are also better than weekends as women are too casual at weekends.

Where? I see no point in going out dressed on secluded back roads or anywhere else devoid of other human beings – its just a bigger closet. But whereever you go – go with a sense of purpose, real or mythical. Plan your route and be familiar with the area. It may pay you to walk your route in male mode just prior to coming back in female mode. Check for the 'unexpected' – the street sellers, the charity collectors, the market researchers etc. who may approach you. It’s not the big disasters that will happen and throw you off guard – its more likely to be these people or the road maintenance crews or the over friendly toddlers etc. etc. when you are faced with that horrible dilemma of having to speak or look very rude.

Exit & Re-entry. If you are leaving from and returning to your home then these may be the risky times for you especially if you are driving a recognizable car. I am lucky inasmuch as my home sits beside a municipal building and car park and I have side exits to the car park. But there are many options – like parking the car a distance away. Or going to a motel.

Make spare keys and keep them permanently in your pocket book/purse.

I know one friend who took a change of male clothes in their car in case of an ‘emergency’. It’s not something I would recommend as I think the embarrassment of being caught betwixt and between in the back of the car or the public toilet would be greater than being discovered fully en femme.

Over coming first time nerves – your local pharmacy/drug store will have non prescription medications for occasional anxiety related to public speaking or flying or job interviews – they are worth a try.

These are simply my miscellaneous ideas and I don’t hold myself out as any kind of an expert on the subject but there seem to be a lot of posts about going out - but no nitty grittys. I’m sure there are others here who can add volumes to my thoughts.

Fiona xxFiona you do go on an awful lot !

[FionaAlexis]

Fiona you do go on an awful lot !

Yes, I can blether a bit when I feel like it.....but then i'm Irish. And I kissed the Blarney Stone.

Fiona xx

[Aly Cooke]

Great post, as a girl who has come on leaps and bounds in the past year I can fully endorse all the advice here.

However I would certainly recommend carrying an emergency bag in the car. I have a little flight case always in the boot (trunk). Inside I have a pair of jogging pants, t-shirt, sweat shirt and an old pair of trainers & socks. I also carry a packet of cleansing wipes (the type that come pre-moistened) and a spare contact lens case and glasses, a hair brush and a reasonable sized mirror.

It was precaution that I took when I started to venture out just for piece of mind. Boy was I glad that I did!

When I was out and about, having an adventure, my car just cut out in the middle of the road for no apparent reason. This was in the rush hour. I had no idea how helpful it would be to be enfemme when needing to push a car off an intersection! Men appeared from everywhere as soon as I got out and attempted to get the car off the road. After they had done the pushing I gave them my heartfelt thanks in my dodgy femme voice, and told them that I had my phone and would call my husband. I still don't know whether it was the fact that I had a husband or a dodgy femme voice that made them disappear, but I have to say it was a relief.

I locked the car and went for a brisk walk around the block to weigh up my options: it was too far to walk home (although thankfully I was wearing sensible shoes), I was not up for any public transport at the time (now I am a little more confident, so maybe I would now if pushed), or I could call my breakdown service...

I wandered around for another half an hour, until it got dark. I then went back to my car, got my emergency bag out and changed into male mode on in the back seat. I takes a bit of planning about what comes off in what order, and its good to keep looking around, but given the baggy nature of the stuff in my bag I could keep most of my femme stuff on underneath. First goes on the clothes (now I look like a girl in joggers), then off comes the make up (now a bloke with long hair) and finally the wig.

I then called the breakdown people and the guy came out and the car was running again in an hour.

So you see I was awfully happy to have a bag of stuff onboard. I never thought I'd need it but in the event it gave me another option.

So if you are planning on heading out, having a few emergency items tucked away is a wise move, as I say my bag lives in the car. If you need to explain the little locked suitcase strapped down in the back, tell ‘em its full of stuff to help if you get stuck in a snowdrift (well you do have another couple of layers of clothes if you actually do get stuck in a snowdrift)

Another emergency item I carry is an empty 5 litre petrol can, and I have to say that has spared me trauma when I haven't been able to pluck up the courage to brave the ladies loo! Not nice to use, but reassuring all the same.

Finally, I have blacked out the back windows of my car with sticky film to save any embarrassment should I need to get changed.

Hope it helps
Aly xx

[Lauren_T]

Fiona you do go on an awful lot !

Yes, I can blether a bit when I feel like it.....but then i'm Irish. And I kissed the Blarney Stone.

Fiona xx

Ah, Fi, but you know those canny Scots believe in being economical, including with words! :whistle:






________________________________
If God takes issue with the way I live,
I'll let him tell me, not you, thanks.
~ yrs trly

[Mary M]

im getting lots of great advice on this site!!!!

ooxx

[FionaAlexis]

So you see I was awfully happy to have a bag of stuff onboard. I never thought I'd need it but in the event it gave me another option.

So if you are planning on heading out, having a few emergency items tucked away is a wise move, as I say my bag lives in the car. If you need to explain the little locked suitcase strapped down in the back, tell ‘em its full of stuff to help if you get stuck in a snowdrift (well you do have another couple of layers of clothes if you actually do get stuck in a snowdrift)

Another emergency item I carry is an empty 5 litre petrol can, and I have to say that has spared me trauma when I haven't been able to pluck up the courage to brave the ladies loo! Not nice to use, but reassuring all the same.

Finally, I have blacked out the back windows of my car with sticky film to save any embarrassment should I need to get changed.

Hope it helps
Aly xx


Thanks Aly - you've convinced me. Glad everything worked out well - and you have a memorable experience to smile about in years to come. Some great advice there too.

Fiona xx

[Phoebe Reece]

Great advice Fiona and Aly!

The only thing I could add, is that if the opportunity presents itself, try to get out in public your first time with a "big sister" (another CD who has been out). Having a pal to talk with as you are out and about will not only make you feel less nervous, it also makes you look more "normal" (like a couple of girlfriends shopping or whatever). While two CD's may be a bit more noticable, there is safety in numbers. Someone who might cause you problems is less likely to go after two CD's than one by herself.

And remember what Emily Ann said: "HAVE FUN!!!"

[womanatheart]

Fiona,
Beautiful name and great post. Great comments and advice from other girls. Thanks all.
A few additions and comments:
Heels: Talking about hurt! My planned 6 hour day out effem was cut short because my feet had developed 4 blisters and trust me, heels require a whole different set of muscles. Talk about walk like John Wayne. I could hardly walk.
Purse: I cannot tell you how many times I have fumbled with a purse. The buttons, zips, compartments, getting $ out, nails in the way, digging for coins. I tend to hold the purse straps in my hand and let the purse dangle. Many GG's say that is not the GG way. It is over the shoulder with the hand over the purse holding it firm to your side.
Heels: You can slip in heels in a second. On my 2nd effem outing to a restarant I made it in the door, following the hostess to my table and nearly did a clumsy cartwheel and crashed into a table because I nearly slipped on the tile surface with my heels. I was a picture of grace that night!
Lipstick: I was dressed efem ready for the night but forgot to pack heels. What do I do? Undress, drive to a shoe store and get re-dressed? Hell no! So I figure I would try to get away with wearing the only other shoes in my possession; some old dirty man's sandles that did not go with this fem outfit. So make sure you have everything. O' yes - lipstick - the topic. As I was gladly paying for these new heels I saw I had the attention of the 2 GG checkout clerks, so not being one to waste a chance to get free GG advice on my 'look' I ask the two girls if they knew I was a cd. They said yes. What gave it away? Lipstick on your teeth. Always do that gg tongue wipe before you open your mouth!
Restaurants: Since I am very self conscience when out efem I usually don't eat at all. My latest tactic is go to a restaurant I have visited before. Check out the # of female waitresses, female hostesses, lighting and seating layout. I would dread walking into the doors of a restaurant, only to be greated by an all male staff waiting for you at the door, given a seat in the middle of a bright lit area and with a male waitress. I now go to places that have female hostesses and I ask for a female waitress. The difference is dramatic. Now every restaurant experience is truly wonderful. Every gg waitress I've had turns out to be like a sister. And how they love to talk girl talk. I love it.
Water /mouthwash in the car: The anxiety of getting ready can dehydrate you. Add a few gin and tonics in prep. Then if you didnt pack water for the trip in the car, but the time you get to the mall efem your mouth is like cotton. And no one likes to smell your dry cotton breath.
Don't speed efem: I have never been pulled over by a cop efem. I could have. But it is one of the last things I would want to happen - explaining the whole cd thing to a policeman!
Love,
Stephanie

[FionaAlexis]

Thank you for your thoughts Stephanie. And you are very right about the blisters especially if you go out bare legged in sandals in hot summer weather.

Checkout chicks are more likely to read trannies as they have a longer interaction and they are less likely to be trained how to deal with different customers like say waiters or lingerie shop staff might be - and one of my few bad experiences was with a checkout chicks.

Fiona xx

[Kimberly]

Good thread. Thanks, I'll bear it in mind!

[Kimberly]

Checkout chicks are more likely to read trannies as they have a longer interaction and they are less likely to be trained how to deal with different customers like say waiters or lingerie shop staff might be - and one of my few bad experiences was with a checkout chicks.
Actually, I've not had any bad experiences - all good and polite.

The last pair of shoes I bought (oh my god, they are lush!!) the girl I asked to get a size 7 for me asked me afterwards if I wanted to try them on before I bought them. I just said "no thanks," but I bet you quite a lot of money that no one would have actually said anything if I had - including the shoppers looking round the female-only store! But still, I stood there with my money out, trying to stop my hand shaking, looking like "TRANNY" was flashing above my head... anyway, the girl must have served a CD before, because she automatically assumed the shoes were for me; something I have not come across yet in my face-to-face shopping experiences. She was still ultra polite about it though :)

[FionaAlexis]

Actually, I've not had any bad experiences - all good and polite.



I'm glad to hear that Kimberley. Well I haven't had any really bad experiences either really - and far outweighed by the good feelings.


Fiona xx

[Rachel Morley]

Hi Fiona,

Your advice is right on the money! I know for myself that a person is going to have enough things going through their head (who's looking at me? do I pass? is it obvious? etc, etc) that they don't want to be thinking "ouch my shoes hurt" or "gosh I'm over dressed for this location" when out en femme, especially if it's their first time out.

Good thread and very helpful.

[Lisa]

Sounds like your planing really paid off!! So far i haven't had anything but pleasent experiences, hopefully this will continue. :D

By the way! Aly your are HOT, you really look great!!!!

[Clare]

Thanks Fiona, your info is invaluable.

Since i've been watching GG's carefully of late, i do notice that they walk - especially in high heels - by placing one foot directly in front of the other each step. This also produce the hip swing which is so evident.

It just goes to show that there are so many subtle differences between the genders that we XDR's have to learn in order to blend in with society at large.

NOTE: I deliberately use the term 'blend in' as its a pet hate of mine when i hear XDR's saying they want to be just like a GG. We'll never be like GG's and despite all our impressions of what it's like to be a woman, that'll never be the case. As my wife used to say, unless you go through a pregnancy and have a baby, no man will ever know what its really like to be a woman.

OK - RANT OVER

Christine

[Rachael Warren]

Thanks for the great advice Fiona, one day I might get to follow it! :rolleyes:

Christine,

"NOTE: I deliberately use the term 'blend in' as its a pet hate of mine when i hear XDR's saying they want to be just like a GG. We'll never be like GG's and despite all our impressions of what it's like to be a woman, that'll never be the case. As my wife used to say, unless you go through a pregnancy and have a baby, no man will ever know what its really like to be a woman."

I know exactly where you are coming from, I delivered (under supervision) both of my children, that's about as close as I will ever get. I wouldn't have missed that experience for the world!

The closest many of us will get to pregnancy is the beer belly! :D

Rachael. :)

[FionaAlexis]

NOTE: I deliberately use the term 'blend in' as its a pet hate of mine when i hear XDR's saying they want to be just like a GG. We'll never be like GG's and despite all our impressions of what it's like to be a woman, that'll never be the case. As my wife used to say, unless you go through a pregnancy and have a baby, no man will ever know what its really like to be a woman.


Thank you Christine and thanks to everyone who has endorsed or commented on the thread.

In this case I only use 'blending in' in the clothes sense not in any wider sense.

Fiona xx

[CammyT]

Mahalo Fiona! Great advise, especially about going out in drab to check out the route I'll need to take. And I guess I'll have to find shorter heels, just to be safe.
The only time I have the opportunity to dress is usually when I'm away from home (one of my wife's rules) and during the evening. I guess my first fear is the fact that I stay at hotels that have security personnel who tend to be "suspicious" of girls like me. All do require me to cross the front lobby in order to go out or get to the parking structure.

I do hope to get out one of these days. There are a few nightclubs that have nights themed for us girls. They usually also have shows and from what I hear attract a good number of guys as well (maybe I can get a free drink :p ). If I can now only get up the courage to get out, I will have a place to spend an evening en femme.

[DanaJ]

Great thread and good tips Fiona! It would make a good checklist :thumbsup:


As my wife used to say, unless you go through a pregnancy and have a baby, no man will ever know what its really like to be a woman.

ChristineReally? What about women who never have children, does that mean they will never know what it is like to be a woman? I am sorry, I don't think that is a viable criterion for determining what it is like to be a woman.

DanaJ (who once passed a kidney stone the size of a raisin, that felt like I was giving birth :D)

[Clare]

Really? What about women who never have children, does that mean they will never know what it is like to be a woman? I am sorry, I don't think that is a viable criterion for determining what it is like to be a woman.
Hi Dana.

I understand your point. Yes, you can break down any statement and find fault with it, but that isn't always necessary or appropriate is it? In this case, I prefer to focus on the context of the overall statement, rather than the technical implications of specifics to each seperate woman in the World.

Let me expand my origional comment a little eh? Real women still have monthly periods don't they? Baby or no baby, they are still women and no man will ever experience that biological function no matter how hard they try to immitate GG's.

Although i assume i'm like a lot of other XDR's and try to appear as feminine as possible, i don't make (or like) comments to the effect of being 'true to womanhood' in a way that degrades GG's. I have too much respect for real ladies to do that, especially those women who strive to understand and accept their SO's desire to crossdress.

I just try to keep things in perspective.

Christine

[Lauren_T]

Christine:
I feel a little like the evil stepsister popping in at the Princess' christening, stepping in here, but I'm sorry, it's not on. :)

... Yes, you can break down any statement and find fault with it, but that isn't always necessary or appropriate is it? In this case, I prefer to focus on the context of the overall statement, rather than the technical implications of specifics to each seperate woman in the World.
Now Christine, first off, standard disclaimers apply; I am not attacking you, but the argument you have presented in the course of discussion. That leaves it open to being challenged and possibly negated. You have made an assertion which, I allege, is logically invalid, and therefore wrong. Nothing personal or malicious, no flaming here, but rather strong disagreement and counterargument, OK?
Some (most? all?) here will still think me a pompous, long-winded meanie, but as Sinatra said, 'That's Life'...

So, don't take it personally, but your post is an example of something I call Logic-Free Reasoning™®.

Let's take it point by point, shall we?: "Yes, you can break down any statement and find fault with it..."

Wrong. Sorry, you cannot. The only statement you can logically find fault with is one that is faulty. You cannot possibly disprove a true statement, no matter how hard you try.

Next: "...but that isn't always necessary or appropriate is it?"

Wrong. Yes, it is. To not do so negates the entire purpose of discussion. In any forum, the participants make statements, assertions, implicitly or explicitly alleging that they are true and correct. The other participant(s) in the discussion then either agree or disagree. Should someone disagree, i.e., allege that that the assertion is invalid, it is up to them to demonstrate, using the commonly accepted tools of analysis, i.e. logic, why this is so.

So the exact semantic equivalent of your first statement is this: 'You can disprove any assertion.' Wrong. If that were so there would be no such thing as truth.

Your next directly implies (the question form is purely rhetorical) that false statements, at times, should go unchallenged and be allowed to stand as valid; in other words, you have said that participants in discussion (a purpose of which is seeking truth) should permit falsehoods to be asserted as truth and that those falsehoods should not be challenged, permitting observers of the discussion to assume that those same falsehoods are actually true and thereby distorting their internal model of reality. Wrong. This is very much, as Martha might say, 'A Bad Thing' and is in fact the prime mover behind 99%+ of human misery since the birth of language.

Your next: "In this case, I prefer to focus on the context of the overall statement, rather than the technical implications of specifics to each seperate woman in the World." I'll not dwell on this, except to point out that it boils down exactly to this: "In this case, I want to assert a generalization which supports my viewpoint without examining any inconvenient counterexamples which disprove that generalization." 'Nuff said. So, as Basil Fawlty would say, "Into the bin with that one!"

Let's move on. "Real women still have monthly periods don't they?" The implication of this, again abstracting it from the rhetorical form, is: "All real women menstruate."
Wrong. They don't all menstruate! Some are born with defects which result in permanent amenorrhea, other develop conditions or contract diseases which have the same result. So, menstruation is therefore not a prerequisite for 'feeling like a woman,' and therefore your counter-counterargument to Dana's (valid, correct) counterargument is invalid, i.e., wrong.

And now we come to this: "i don't make (or like) comments to the effect of being 'true to womanhood' in a way that degrades GG's."
This being a statement of personal preference, i.e., opinion, it isn't subject to validation, but I will address the indirect assertion in the subtext "comments (that) degrade GG's(sic)."
Here you imply that statements have been made that "degrade" GGs. What statements, exactly? "Degrade" in what manner? This is an unfounded value judgement. The state, or condition, of being a human female (or male) is no different than the state of being an amoeba, or being a spiral nebula. It is not a virtue. It is a state of being, not a voluntary act, it is neither good nor evil, right nor wrong, is just is. Value judgements do not apply. You cannot rationally "degrade" any entity's state of being. "Women are bad" is a value judgement, be it right or wrong. "I know what it's like to feel like a woman (or an amoeba, or a spiral nebula)" whether true or false, is a value-neutral assertion which, since it does not posit a judgment, cannot be said to "degrade" anything!

So, I'm sore afeared that your arguments fail to stand up to scrutiny. Sorry.

If you pick up your drink and wander over next door, you'll encounter one or more GGs in the F2M section, who, despite being born with the requisite chromosomal complement, will tell you that they do not feel like women, and have never felt like women! They say they feel exactly like men!
As an aside, would you care to explain, using your reasoning, having been born a male, how this "degrades" you?

Since there are GGs who have never menstruated (and therefore obviously never given birth), if we accept your assertions as true, then it follows that these are women who do not know what it feels like to be a woman! Interesting, to say the least, but I'm still not having a bit of it. :p

To close, I'll weigh in with this, which I feel (understandably :D) is demonstrably valid, correct and true-to-fact:
In order to 'feel like' - that is, to undergo the psychological experience - of being a member of the gender you were not born into, it is not necessary to menstruate, give birth, or have vaginal sexual intercourse, since, it is trivial to note, there are innumerable individuals born of both genders who have not undergone these experiences.

So what is necessary to 'feel like' you're of the other gender? The answer is clear. The operative term here is "feel." It is entirely within the mind! The sole factor in one's sense of gender identity, the one thing that actually causes a person's mind to experience the emotions more typically experienced by the opposite gender, is their endocrinal balance, i.e, hormones!

When a M2F (or F2M) TS who has been under long-term hormonal adjustment (and presents to society and is therefore subjected to the treatment of a woman (or man)) says, "I feel like a woman (or man)," (dependent, of course, upon the truthfulness of the individual making that statement) you can pretty much take that to the bank!

But feel free to prove me wrong... ;)

Lauren
________________
Abject appy-polly-logies for the unconscionable hijack! PLEASE resume where you left off...

[Lauren_T]

But feel free to prove me wrong... ;)

Lauren
________________
Abject appy-polly-logies for the unconscionable hijack! PLEASE resume where you left off...Hello? HELLLO-O! Girls? GIRLS???

Please continue, not scared off by a brief(?) diversion, are you?

...

Where'd everybody go??

Doesn't anyone wanna agree? Disagree? Plead no contest? Pretend I'm not even here?

Christine!?!?! You out there? Common courtesy of a response?

Helllo-o-o-o?!?!?

Hmmm. Chatty lot! :(

Maybe they're just asleep... :shh:

I could have sworn this was a discussion board...

Goes to show... :confused:

[FionaAlexis]

I guess my first fear is the fact that I stay at hotels that have security personnel who tend to be "suspicious" of girls like me. All do require me to cross the front lobby in order to go out or get to the parking structure.


Thank you Cammy.

I wouldn't have thought you would have too much difficulty looking convincing and walking out unchallenged Cammy. I take it from your Yahoo! Profile you are small framed and slightly built?

You just need to have a failsafe strategy that lets them know you are a paying guest.

Fiona xx

ps I doubt there is such a thing as 'a free drink'.

[Lauren_T]

... You just need to have a failsafe strategy that lets them know you are a paying guest. ...

If I might add, having been 'born into' the hospitality industry myself, so long as you have your room key, you shouldn't have any worries on that account. Rare is the establishment that will risk embarassing a paying guest... But you should be able to bypass even that, if you have a quiet word with management at checkin, guaranteeing you won't be unexpectedly molested. :thumbsup:

[FionaAlexis]

If I might add, having been 'born into' the hospitality industry myself, so long as you have your room key, you shouldn't have any worries on that account. Rare is the establishment that will risk embarassing a paying guest... But you should be able to bypass even that, if you have a quiet word with management at checkin, guaranteeing you won't be unexpectedly molested. :thumbsup:

Thanks for the good suggestions Lauren. - Fiona xx