Wearing female clothes while as a man

[KlaireLarnia]

Hi.

I am new here and have been cross dressing for around 20 years now. I have no wish or desire to be or act female, nor am I am doing it for kicks. My reasons are to express a side of my personality which I have to repress normally. I also hate the way that men are forced into wearing a very limited style of clothes which women are not - and this is kinda like my way of having being able to express myself and challenge the limits society have placed on what men can wear. I feel I should be free to wear anything, at any time - much as women are.

When at home my dressing times and chances are extremely limited due to my wife and child. My wife knows what I do and has placed rules on what I can and cannot wear normally or in the house while she or our child are around - which is fine and fully understandable. I am basically limited to wearing female knickers at any time I wish and female jeans. I can wear nightdresses when my wife works nights and my child is asleep. That is it.

Periodically I have to go away at times on business and when I do I use it as release where I can dress as I want in my hotel room. It is an extra form of release. When I drive to the city my meeting/hotel is in I always wears Jeans and T-shirts, I only wear my suit for the meeting itself as I hate wearing it and think I look a berk in it!

On my last trip I took an odd step, when I got up and dressed for breakfast (for which I always wear jeans and T-shirt), I put on a bra for once and wore it under my t-shirt and jumper. When after breakfast I changed into my suit - leaving the bra on which I then wore to and through my meeting which lasted from 9am to 10:30am.

I then endured a 7 hour drive home (still wearing the bra but now in jeans and a t-shirt after changing in the car following the meeting). Now here is my thought and if anyone has any thoughts/opinions of their own I welcome them


I am considering driving next time in a skirt and possibly a female top/t-shirt. Why, because I want to know what it feels like. I am alone in the car, people would only get a glance at my top as they drove past me and before I got to the hotel I would stop and swap the skirt for jeans and put a jumper on over the top to disguise it. I am also considering getting some flat or 1/2inch court shoes to wear while driving.

So, question: Has anyone ever worn anything female related other than underwear while still being in "male mode" and if so what was it like? To take the above further, if I where to stop at a motorway services and swap into jeans, and jumper but leave the shoes on, do you think I would making an error of judgment or would people probably not notice and/or ignore me?

Aa I said above, I do not want to look or pass for a woman. I am male, perfectly happy with that and do not want to change it. My reasons for cross dressing are based on expression and repression (in terms of clothing styles, choices, fabrics and patterns). Women's clothes allow me to feel comfortable both physically and mentally.

Thanks
Klaire

[Kaz]

Been there, done it, now into the next stage! Welcome to the journey!:hugs:

[Debra Russell]

Whatever Klaire but I suggest you look long and hard in the mirror: the answes to your question " yes we all have worn something femm while in male mode at sometime" wether it was nail polish or stockings and if female clothing and styles make you feel unrepressed physically and mentaly I think you hit a nerve! - that needs to be explored! I suggest you try to look a little more femm - for your self in private and see how that makes you feel. If it feel's good do it don't be ashamed. Come to this place to talk --- keep dressing and feeling good ... Huggs, Debra

[Debb]

I do it at least twice per week ... on my 25-mile ride (motorcycle) to work, in the morning, and on the way home in the evening.

I love it. I do get the odd look once in a while, particularly when I stop for gas ... I take off my helmet, and my "secret" is out -- there's no passing with this face.

But I don't care. The freedom, the feel of the femme clothing ... it's all good.

[Rianna Humble]

For a few months I travelled to and from work as "a bloke in a dress" then got changed before going into the office.

It felt right at the time and I even had some compliments from GG's for daring to be happy.

[carrie-ann]

I'm 247 now but I wore female clothing more than my male clothing before that no one cares you might get a look or two who cares. Your the one that has to figure out what you want to do.

[Tanya83]

Ahhh yes, the "Partial dresser"

I do it every day. :)

I love the "Knickers" as you call them. With a pair of cute little flip flops...I'm good to go.

[AKAMichelle]

This was one of the ways that I started. I use to have to drive from Memphis to Huntsville, Al every week for awhile. During that time I would drive wearing women's clothes. If I had to go in for gas or something then I would change clothes before I went in. I remember one of the times I just said to hell with it and kept on the flats that I had one and went into the store. No comments so I felt pretty safe doing more.

Now I travel and go out en femme whenever I want.

[Glenda58]

Yes we all do it at times. But that's how it started for most of us. Now I just don't care who see me dress in what ever. Today Icut the lawn in short shorts and a tank top. I have no male underware at all.

So dress with makeup once and see how you feel and let us know.

[Being Paige]

Yes, I often wear panties and bra under my male clothes, I will also put on nylons when I'm wearing jeans. It feels great. But I love it more when I can get out fully dressed enfemme! Which reminds me it is almost the end of summer and it will be cooling off, almost time to put my bikini away:battingeyelashes:

[QueenNatalie]

Well then I am impressed......I have to say you have some guts and for the world to change their opinions you have to have guts.

[Ms Taken]

My wife encourages me to wear what I want, although I haven't been able to bring my self to do it totally yet. I am conflicted about things like running into someone I know or being harrsased by some ignorant jerk. Go for it if you feel up to it, sounds to me like no harm, no foul. :)

[dee anne]

i did it today, bra, panties, cami and hoses. It felt great all day long.
Dee anne

[Christina Horton]

forgive me if I'm wrong but "Klaire" if you don't want to be treated like a women then why did you pick a fem-name here.

Second. Some times I read of a girls tail of "oh I just want to be a guy in a dress and not be or seen as a women". Now there is a good chance that's true for you but I think is could be a steping stone for your mind to come around to except your fem-side.

Why do I say that when I don't know you or your whole story. Well not only have I heard others tell me the same thing but.... Well long story short. I came out to my family when I was 23 1993. My sister came out to me in 1998. She said she was BI and I knew then she just want to let her mind grasp the fact that she is fully gay. And she did a few years later.

Is your story going to be the same. I don't know but.... There are lots of girl and guys with the same kind of story like yours. The difference is that there at the point that they have fully excepeted themselfs. You may think/know I'm wrong but I just want you to have my words at the back of you mind and to be open to the possabilty you might someday want to go out cull as a women.

I hope I have not brouht you down or made you mad. I just need to express myself on whet I thought when o read ou thread.

I hope you luck and have fun.

And yes I too have worn fem-stuff in drab.

Like I wear panties and I have been for the last month or so been wearing my bra and c cup( giving me a d size breasts) breast formes and no one has said anything. I have also worn mu 4 1/2 in stelito boots out too and no one has said anything. So yes you can do it if you want. Most people don't look at what your wearing unless your a hot chick or have a huge bugger hanging under your nose. So don't worrie about it.

Have fun with CDing after all you only live once.

[KlaireLarnia]

forgive me if I'm wrong but "Klaire" if you don't want to be treated like a women then why did you pick a fem-name here.

The simple answer is two-fold.

1) Klaire Larnia was the name of my Second Life Avatar which I used to explore my female side - which I have never denined having especially being a Gemini. We are often seen as having two sides to our personalities, I simply view mine as the male and female sides - both of which help make "me" as a whole.

2) I dislike standing out from the crowd unless I have too. So by bring Klaire onto here, I can look around, comment and speak without standing out like a sore thumb.

---

Regards to my reasons for my cross dressing. I have questioned why I do this many times. Every time I have I have always got the answer that I am rebelling against the limits that society place against men regards to what they can and cannot wear.

I have never felt the need, urge or wish to go outside and appear or be taken as a female. Will this change? Maybe, I am not physic so I do not know. I can only tell you what my mind says here and now. Maybe this is where I am heading, one day my head will say "Sorry, but men will never be able to wear what you want - so the only way to do it is to look and act female." I have no idea. But then again this is part of why I am here:- To learn and understand.

I am quite used to being a little different, doing things maybe not the same way round as others. It does not bother me as in the end I will figure things out and get the answers I am looking for. My question about wearing female clothes as a man may just be a step towards this, it could also be a step to my personal crusade against the limits placed on men regards to clothes. I have no idea at this point.

The one thing I do not want to do is make a mistake that *could* backfire and affect my family. This is why I seek answers before I do things. I can plan, consider options, see possible problems/results and then work out best what I can do.

I hope that kinda makes sense and does not come over as a rant (as it is not meant to) and opinions and thoughts are always welcome. If I was not able to take [more] negative sounding thoughts and opinions then I would never post something like I did. Both positive and negative thoughts are needed to give a balanced answer and help me see the full picture and not just the nicest part of it.

Thanks
Klaire

[Danni Bear]

Klaire,

Only you know what you want. That being said, I would caution you. Do not limit yourself, explore your feelings when you are dressed. No matter how little or much that is. You said that it makes you more comfortable physically and mentally when dressed. Ask yourself why is that? It could only be what you think it is, or maybe it's more. Only you through searching and exploring can determine that. Yes it is hard to put up with a world that limits a persons outward expression. Women do have an easier time with clothing, but why is that. It could be because we won't let the world dictate to us anymore. Or maybe it's as simple as for years we have gone ahead with what we found comfortable.

Good luck in your quest

Danni

[ReineD]

Why is there cultural anxiety about crossdressing? Some people will say it is due to religious influence, a few texts in the Bible that deem it morally reprehensible, but there are non-religious people who've never read the Bible and who feel queazy about it. Why are people confused with anything other than clear-cut binary gender? Why does homophobia exist? Is it hard-wired or culturally conditioned?

I don't know the answers to these questions, since I support everyone's right to express who they are and I understand that there are people whose brain gender does not match their physical gender. But, we do live in a world where it appears as if a majority of people feel anxious about anyone who goes outside the gender norms. They may tolerate it as long as it is arm's length of their private lives, but few are willing to support and embrace it close to home, save for some loving and accepting spouses and even then, most do so as long as the final gender barrier is not crossed.

I'm pointing this out to let you know that you will likely be viewed with misgivings when you go out dressed as you propose. I wish it weren't that way, but it is. A few independent and free types will applaud your originality, but not most people, even thouth the majority will not say anything to you directly. You'll need to feel confident and strong within yourself, like the CDs who encourage you in this thread, and not care how you are viewed. If you only plan to stay within the safety of your car it shouldn't be too bad, but if you try to make an effort to appear feminine with proper hair and makeup, you will blend in more to match people's expectations of gender expression, and your road might be a little easier if you plan to get out of the car.

Good luck! :)

[Gillian]

Hi Klaire,

I have managed till now to keep my two elements apart, but reading your post has made me question if I can integrate some items into my daily routine I quite like this idea of T-shirts and Jeans in a femme cut, this could be quite discreet pleasure, I couldn't do the bra or panties under part as the days I am in drab means someones home!

The days I am alone, I am almost exclusively in skirts dresses etc.:D

[k lynn]

I wear panties a bra and ladys jeans daily every day never really cared for dresses or skirts but do like high heels could never pass for a woman but I do love the clothes

[Misty G]

I always wear panties (don't own any male briefs), Most of the time I wear female jeans and shorts. I wear women's New Balance 801'ss to work in which are Pink and Black. I always keep my legs shaved year around

[Satrana]

I am one who has dropped the idea that crossdressing requires me to emulate a woman. Passing is not what CDing is about.

When I am in my house I make zero effort to blend in, I just wear whatever combination of male or female clothes I like. But in public I still go with the makeup and wig and forms. Why? Because the more I conform to the gender norm, the more the people I interact with are at ease. Secondly the makeup and hair disguises my male self so I am more self confident knowing my male persona is unrecognizable.

However I make no effort to pass myself off as a woman with regards to my mannerisms or voice. People can instantly tell I am male but so long as I act confidently and calmly then the exchange goes just fine. I feel that people hate uncertainty trying to determine what you are or worse being fooled into thinking you are a GG then finding out later and hating you for making them feel foolish.

People are going to be uptight if you are uptight. People have built-in radars that can detect nervousness instantly. You need to build up your self-confidence which in turn makes it easier for others to accept you.

As per your question about the shoes, chances are nobody would notice. If they did then they would have a momentary thought pass through their minds "Oh he is a gay" then they would get back to their own business. Absolutely nothing would happen unless you have the major misfortune to run into some drunk knuckleheads or worse a gang of bitchy teenage girls!

So walk about in those shoes as if you wear them everyday and be amazed how nobody gives a damn.

[Freddy12]

I have worn various oieces of female clothing while in male-mode. I have bever gotten a comment or even a second look. If you act confident, you can do a lot! It gives me a thrill each time I try something new or different. I particularly enjoy wearing a bra that is obvious when in male mode to see if anyone notices. The VAST VAST majority do bot, or at least do not seem to. Keep on pushing the boundaries!

[Billijo49504]

I wear womens clothes every day, without a wig or makeup. But if anyone asks if those are womens clothes, I just tell them no, their mine....BJ

[Emma England]

I have lost count the number of times that I have worn a skirt in male mode (hundreds of times - especially in warm weather).

What is it like? More comfortable than trousers.

[Angie G]

Keep do what your doing if you wish to take it up a notch do it. For a really good feeling drive in 4inch heels I love it. I drive fully dressed only a night and It's the bomb hun.:hugs:
Angie

[Pythos]

I very often wear "feminine" clothing as a male. There is no question I am male.

Yesterday I was able to wear my spandex jeans for work, due to the heat we were having around here made wearing jeans really uncomfortable. I move about in my new job and the jeans were just dragging against my legs, not to mention despite the fact they fit they kept needing to be tugged up.

So I asked my boss (who knows me even before I got the job, I was a regular customer, and the machine I am using to post this is one of his creations), if I could wear my leggings, to which he said "of course".

So yesterday I wore my SDJs. It felt great, and I had to adjust them I think maybe 3 times. They moved with me opposed to against me, and that was nice.

I have also gone out skirted, but my look is usually a bit softer when I do that, just in case I need to "pass just barely" as a female.

Then of course there are the times I go out in androgynous mode :) But to too many that is a foreign concept.

[Tracy X Cruz]

I will say that some of us have a lot of trouble passing... but to let that stop us would be crime.

I started by wearing 5" heeled boots with my normal drab clothes... though to be honest even my drab is anything but as I have a "style" of hawaiian shirts (usually bright blues) and Bondage pants(you know those baggyish pants with chains or straps, usually with colored accents) which had blue on them. So switching from knee high "combat" type boots to high heels wasn't a huge jump for people around me and I did get some looks and comments but I got things like "wow those are amazing" and "I can't even walk in heels that high" and stuff like that.

Next step for me was wearing skirts and blouses... I have had friends over while wearing stuff, no other real change besides skirts, blouses, occasionally my heels and I don't get much in the way of comments, things just keep going like nothing was different. I don't pass, too much hair(working on it) tall, broad, and a little over weight(all in my stomach >.<) but I will not let that stop me from dressing how I want. I have even (twice now) gone out dressed in heels, skirt, and blouse. Both times I was with my girlfriend(SO) which really helped me feel strong. But nothing else done really(no makeup, still have hair, etc), wore some thigh high stockings but otherwise I was a guy in a skirt, and no one made a big deal out of it so It was great!

I say do what you want, where what you want. I do suggest getting a friend who knows to go with you cause having my SO with me or friends has made a huge difference in my confidence level, but otherwise experiment try things, and see what feels right for you!

[KlaireLarnia]

Thanks for all the views and positive experiences. I am quite surprised that this is more common than I realised and obviously not as much of a deal either.

My plan was to test the water with shoes as they are less obvious as people tend to look forward and not down, so it is the body that is seen more than the feet - but if it went well then I may venture into other things.

I sadly have no one I can do this with. My wife is a no-no as she is mostly against it and I am not going to try and push her into accepting something she has not for the last 5 years. None of my friends know I do this and at this time - that is how I want it. Sadly I am also limited at work. Despite working in an office of around 10 women and 1 other man, I would not be happy dressing in any way noticeably there. I would rather keep work/social/private apart at this time in my life.

I would love to wear Bras more as I am (thanks to getting fat) getting man-boobs sadly so there may come a use for wearing them oddly. But at work I am in an office in jeans and a t-shirt. While I can partially hide the signs of a bra with a racer-back clip to pull the straps into the middle of my back, I cannot mask the rest easily. So again at work I am extremely limited, and changing clothes to drive home is not practical due to the open carpark outside work and living on a busy street. So at the moment is only business trips I could dress up for.

I have a few other thoughts but I will post these in a separate topic later on.

I am very grateful for all the replies so far, and as I said amazed at them too. It is encouraging to know I am not alone in this and that what I am planning is something many have thought of and done. It makes me feel more comfortable and happy that my thoughts are not excessive or bazaar.

One last thing. ReineD: I understand your points and you are absolutely right in regards to peoples views and engrained belifs on things. But as I said, I have never wanted to pass as a female and while it may be easier to do what I want if I make the effort - it would go against my current views and desires. Maybe there will be a time I may have to do this, but as it stands - that time is not now. But thank you for being honest and showing me something which rightly needs to be considered.

Thanks
Klaire

[Michaella]

I very much enjoy stretching the boundaries of what a male can wear. I have also worn traditionally "female" items when presenting as male. I've worn nail polish, frilly blouses, high heel boots, and even skirts (not all at the same time) as a male, and it's never created a problem. I was careful to select the sort of places I would go to do this. And I wear earrings all the time, sometimes more elaborate femme-styles, and usually wear nylons.

Of late I have also tried presenting as a woman. Quoting Satrana, above:
"When I am in my house I make zero effort to blend in, I just wear whatever combination of male or female clothes I like. But in public I still go with the makeup and wig and forms. Why? Because the more I conform to the gender norm, the more the people I interact with are at ease. Secondly the makeup and hair disguises my male self so I am more self confident knowing my male persona is unrecognizable."

That's very much what I do these days, but I'm still interested in the gender bender approach too. I fully support your interest in it and hope it works out for you.

Michaella

[KlaireLarnia]

I very much enjoy stretching the boundaries of what a male can wear. I have also worn traditionally "female" items when presenting as male. I've worn nail polish, frilly blouses, high heel boots, and even skirts (not all at the same time) as a male, and it's never created a problem. I was careful to select the sort of places I would go to do this. And I wear earrings all the time, sometimes more elaborate femme-styles, and usually wear nylons.

I am not sure I could currently go that that sort of lengths. Earrings are out (not got pierced earrings and clip on earrings hurt too much for me). At the moment I am just looking at basic simple items which do not stand out too much but are comfortable to wear/cover as needs. Again I am also wary due to the places I may be seen and the type of people who may see me.

But again the reassurance that others have done and do it makes me feel a lot better about it all.

Klaire

[jjjjohanne]

I call it going out "androgenously enfemme". I first tried wearing woman's khaki pants, a woman's top, and Keds to the mall. No one noticed. I also went out in shorts with pantyhose. I was a man in all girls' clothes. No one ever noticed. Later I tried dark pantyhose. Then a few times, I tried a skirt with the outfit. No one ever confronted me. I would get disapproving looks. When what I was wearing was obvious (dark hose or a skirt) I would get long stares. Store clerks would treat me rather normally. The most negative reaction I ever got was some guy in the mall saw me and he told his friend who walked out to where he could see me and they laughed. I was 50 yards away from them or more. Once a couple girls working at a shop in the mall laughed at me as I walked by. A more friendly experience was when I was in a skirt and heels in a large clothing store. I was stepping onto an escalator when a woman asked me, "Was it a bet?" I turned to her and her female companion and said, "No." and smiled.

Going out in those outfits has no doubt injured my heart. That was SO stressful!

[Emma England]

You should ask every woman who wears pants the question "was it a bet?".

They won't have a clue what you are on about!

[sissystephanie]

My late wife passed away over 5 years ago. She was totally of my crossdressing and always did my wig and makeup when I was going to go out as Stephanie. Now that she is no longer here to do those things, I go out differently. I still dress totally enfemme, from the skin out! But I wear no wig or makeup. I am just me, a definite man, in a skirt or dress! I have been doing it since she passed, and have never had any problems. Sure, I do get some looks but I just ignore them. I do get compliments on my outfits, and have ladies ask me where I got my skirt or top!!

I also have no desire to be a woman, I am a male! I dress simply because I like the fit, feel, and look of feminine clothing. Been doing it for about 70 years so it is second nature to me!

[melissacd]

I no longer have any male clothes. I made a decision because of all that I had been through to get here that I had to a) make it worth it by changing my lifestyle completely, b) that I had to be true to myself and c) that I had to enjoy my life and to do that I had to get rid of the things that brought me down and one of the big areas was male clothing - so - poof - all gone and replaced by female clothing exclusively. I have not worn any male clothing for almost three years now and I feel so much better for it.

[banootcd]

mmm nice .. I had simler expriance like that excpt that I had an underwear under my jeans and when I was driving in the car I took the jeans off. that was nice experince to me.

overall, I love to wear langerie when I get the chance under my my men clothes when I ge out of home.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Klaire, 90% or more of the time I spend in women's clothes, I'm dressed as a man. In fact the only times in the past year since publicly coming out as a crossdresser that I did dress as a female, were to a specifically transgender event, and for a halloween costume. Otherwise I present as male.

The thing is, it really isn't something you can be skiddish about. I did it a couple of times before I was really ready for it and the experience was so heart racing and nervewracking that I didn't really enjoy myself, but now I almost forget what I'm wearing sometimes, or at least I would if I wasn't so happy about it. I am sort of reminded about what I have on every time I pass a woman wearing a skirt.

[Jason+]

:D Add 10 percent to Ryan and you will have me even when I am as dressed up as I get. I can understand the not wanting to conform part as well. Growing up I never seemed to meet the boy standard long before I knew what a CD was or that I might be one. Now that I am one, adding a wig, forms or more makeup than lipstick is just conforming to somebody else's expectations and doesn't feel true to me.

[davemcwish]

Klaire,

Im very grateful that you started this thread as I'm in the same position as a number of the subsequent posters. I have always thought that I was a bit different in that I desired 'clothes from the other side of the store' (as I call it) but have no desire at all to attempt to present as anything other than male. I'm very lucky as, like Tracy X Cruz have a SO that accepts who I am. Being Scottish it wasn't too difficult, once I got the courage, to start wearing plain skirts, of kilt length, and masculine shirts in public, I alternate with wearing jeans or leggings and I stay away from dresses and anything with flowers and/or frills. I only once had an experience of being mocked but that was in the evening at a local store by some kids - I just carried on walking into a shop and ignored them; this did unnerve me quite a bit but am ok now. I don't dress like this in front of family and friends though. All I would add is take your time and be confortable with what you wear.

[Kayleigh-Marie]

I'll shall say a few things...

Firstly...the first line of one of Madonna's songs:


Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading
But secretly you'd love to know what it's like
Wouldn't you
What it feels like for a girl

I am surprised your partner isn't allowing you to dress up around her, most women are completely lenient, its the males who are the ones who mock.

There is no escaping the fact that each and everyone of us has a Male, a Female and a Child inside. The crossdressing, like with me is for comfort and my female side showing through :)

Read my signature below, my friend told me that and it so true :) :o:battingeyelashes:

[Emma England]

Kayleigh, I agree with your signature.

There will always someone moaning, so you might as well do what you want to do.

[KlaireLarnia]

I am surprised your partner isn't allowing you to dress up around her, most women are completely lenient, its the males who are the ones who mock.


Not strictly true if you ask me. I actually think that a lot of women are against it due to the infringement on their world - but as men tend to be more aggressive and overpowering, a woman is more likely to tolerate something to keep the peace and life easier.

My wife is totally against it. It goes against almost every atom in her body (with exception of wearing womens knickers). That said she is of an eastern origin and upbringing so has a vastly different set of values to myself. She has also stated that she sees it as overstepping the boundaries between men and women. When I challenged her to why women can wear trousers, shirts - heck even mens clothes literally - her response was simply to shrug and say cause we can... Can't win that one can I?

I agree with you that all people have more than one side to our personalities. Some are more dominant than others. I see mine as a male and female. Sadly the male side is still a boy at heart and a sarcastic and silly one at that. It is a good mix but one which can be hard to balance at times.

Klaire

[Kayleigh-Marie]

Not strictly true if you ask me. I actually think that a lot of women are against it due to the infringement on their world - but as men tend to be more aggressive and overpowering, a woman is more likely to tolerate something to keep the peace and life easier.



Oh... well 100% of the women I told including my partner and sister are fine with it so thats where I got surprised. But yes different cultures see things differently.....

[Tracy X Cruz]

When I challenged her to why women can wear trousers, shirts - heck even mens clothes literally - her response was simply to shrug and say cause we can...

Ouch... that wounds me... I really don't like when people assume what the cultural norm is now is how it has to be and how it always has been. Women fought for so long and fought so hard for equal rights and the clothing in part is a sign of that. It used to be for them like it is for us now trying to wear a skirt. People who don't question... don't look at why... don't think about things from both sides hurt me physically... they don't make me angry really...

They make me sad.

[ReineD]

Women fought for so long and fought so hard for equal rights and the clothing in part is a sign of that. It used to be for them like it is for us now trying to wear a skirt.

As sad as it is, and I do agree that it is sad, there is a huge difference between your two examples. The percentage of women to the total population (say it is 50%), is much greater than the percentage of TGs, which I'm guessing is between a fraction of 1% and 5% depending on where you get the statistics.

If there were as many GMs wanting to wear women's clothes as there were GGs wanting to wear slacks, society would soon change its attitudes as well. It would have no choice.

[Tracy X Cruz]

If there were as many GMs wanting to wear women's clothes as there were GGs wanting to wear slacks, society would soon change its attitudes as well. It would have no choice.

I agree... I am not saying that it will change soon if at all... I think I was saying I would expect(ok actually would wish/hope)for a woman to understand a little bit more the reason why she is able to wear pants... that it wasn't always that way and have a little more understanding for man wanting equal treatment in clothing.

I am just sad that that isn't the case is all...

[ReineD]

I would expect(ok actually would wish/hope)for a woman to understand a little bit more the reason why she is able to wear pants... that it wasn't always that way and have a little more understanding for man wanting equal treatment in clothing.


I'm a supportive SO and I'm there. :hugs: So are all the other supportive SOs, after having taken the time to learn about this. But how do we get the other 99% of society to join in, when they have no reasons to become aware since they don't have TGs in their families that would require them to become enlightened?

[shaq91]

I'm always in male mode lol. When i dress up i just put on a girls outfit & heels but i don't wear wigs or make up. I do paint my toes or put on lipstick sometimes though. I experimented with make up but i'm not really good with it.

[Satrana]

People who don't question... don't look at why...They make me sad.

You should not be sad. People may learn from their own experiences but we never learn from the experiences of others. To say that women should be understanding of our cause because of femininsim would be to suggest all men be anti-war due to the horrors of WWI and WWII. That does not work either.

All but the oldest female members here grew up with femininist goals already/mostly achieved and the use of male clothes a given. They have taken it for granted all their lives so there is no reason to expect them to empathisize with our demands. After all there is no obvious connection between feminism and transgenderism. One is a social movement the other is an individual need.

The sad truth is CDers are emerging out of the woodwork several decades too late to capitalize on the gender bending issues feminism created during the 60s, 70s and 80s. If feminist rights were being fought here and now then for sure many women would see the connection and the degree of understanding would be substantially higher.

Look at the hippie movement in the 60s - men with long hair and flowers behind their ear and wearing brightly colored smocks - that was an example of cis men gender blending taking feminine ideals to heart, also the glam rockers of the 70s. So there was an opportunity then for men to break free and mirror women in gender blending but that opportunity was lost because men still had to work to support their families and the competitive/macho workplace did not allow for such behavior. Men's single dominating role as family provider meant they could not follow in women's footsteps.

[ReineD]

Look at the hippie movement in the 60s - men with long hair and flowers behind their ear and wearing brightly colored smocks - that was an example of cis men gender blending taking feminine ideals to heart, also the glam rockers of the 70s.

You always make such interesting points! :)

But the difference as I understand it, between the 60's hippies, the 70's glam rockers, and TGs is that the hippies and glam rockers did not attempt to present as women. They were solid in their male identities and this is why their looks were accepted. Even within those groups, there were marked differences between female and male presentation.

I asked a question some years ago, would the TGs here buy skirts and dresses designed for men if they were widely available and accepted in our society. Most said no, because their goal was to present as women and not men. I wish I could find the thread.

Same with hair. My SO made an interesting point the other day. She said that if we lived in a society where it was customary for women to be bald and men to have long, flowing locks, the TGs would want to shave their heads.

Clothing styles change and who knows if in the future skirts for men will not be widely available. They are practical, especially in the summer. But if they ever do become popular, I doubt most members here would want to wear them. They'd instead opt for the skirt that women wear.

And if ever the gender gap in clothing should disappear entirely, if all the skirts and pants were to be made available for both genders in all the fabrics and colors, I think the TGs would find different aspects of themselves to change, in order to present more as women than men. :2c:

[DeeDee1974]

While I do enjoy fully transforming, most mornings I get as my male self, throw on panties and a skirt and take my dogs for a walk as a man in a skirt. I can feel very feminine without full makeup or a wig

[Emma England]

Reine,

How do you determine whether a skirt is male or female? A skirt is only an unbifurcated garment which hangs from your waist (or rather sits on your hips).

There are 2 types of cd. One presents as male whilst wearing female clothes. The other presents as female because they lack courage to be seen as a man with a different style.

Not everyone liked hippies or rockers or whatever. There will always be some who said it was wrong.

I have seen some websites that sell skirts for men. The biggest problem is that they tend to be thick and heavy (just like most other clothing designed for men).

I prefer women's skirts as they are lighter and more comfortable.

As for lack of hair, maybe women would wear wigs instead?

[PretzelGirl]

There are 2 types of cd. One presents as male whilst wearing female clothes. The other presents as female because they lack courage to be seen as a man with a different style.

I don't think this is the way you meant it to come across. But I don't want to be seen as a male wearing female clothes. So why does my courage come into play? That is pretty insulting to many of us and why I am guessing your intent didn't come across properly. You probably want to avoid the statement "There are X types of CD" as that always seems to get the thread down a bad path.

[PaulaLee]

Yesterday , when the sun shone, we went shopping, and as i looked at the girls wandering aroung in their gorgeous summery dressies, and their partners next to them in their drab grey/black shorts and grey t shirts, i said to my GF thats why i love being Paula. When i go out i do like to try to push the boundaries as far as i can , i will wear underwear, bright tops, nail varnish, and a nice drop of perfume. I feel like Paula, very girly and am glad i am no longer in those drab guys clothes, One day i hope to push the boundries to the full, and put that skirt/wig on, and go for it.
My point is wearing what i do helps a lot, and if that works for you GO FOR IT, it has pushed me on a lot to my ultimate dream.

LOVE pAULAXXX

[Rianna Humble]

How do you determine whether a skirt is male or female? A skirt is only an unbifurcated garment which hangs from your waist (or rather sits on your hips).

I would think that the cut of the garment would be different if it was made for men to wear. Certainly all the photos I have seen of "skirts for men" have looked precisely like that and nothing IMNSHO like the sort of skirt that I would wear.


There are 2 types of cd. One presents as male whilst wearing female clothes. The other presents as female because they lack courage to be seen as a man with a different style.

I will try to overlook the implied insult in that statement. I think what you were trying to say is that there are differnet reasons why people cross-dress. At one end of the scale, some (MtF) never want to be anything other than a man in so-called women's clothing. At the other end of the scale, some (MtF) want to appear as feminine as they can as part of their cross-dressing experience. Then there are all those who are elsewhere on (or off) this scale.

Then of course you have those who cross-dress because they are TS but have not yet (for whatever reason) begun their RLE. I definitely would not say that those people lack courage.

[Emma England]

I started off by asking the determination of a skirts gender.

There are only 2 ways of wearing one - either as male or female. This makes 2 types of cd as far as I see.

Presenting as a woman IS a man with a different style (different to the rest of society).

Most crossdressers do lack courage (myself included) otherwise everyone would just wear whatever clothes they like. There would be no need for a forum such as this.

At the earlier time of writing, I was thinking that there are many men who are afraid of wearing a skirt in public.

No insult was ever intended. More of a misinterpretation of my meaning.

[ReineD]

Reine,

How do you determine whether a skirt is male or female? A skirt is only an unbifurcated garment which hangs from your waist (or rather sits on your hips).

See the following links. The man skirts are designed as an alternative to traditional men's wear (or possibly as an exercise in gender-bending, such as the guy in pink leggings in the last link), but without attempting to look feminine ... sort of like the modern version of a kilt, sarong, or a hybrid of both.

http://cakenotcoke.com/2009/01/tren-alert-man-skirts/
http://rockthetrend.com/2008/09/11/marc-in-skirt-x2/
http://nymag.com/daily/fashion/2008/07/are_you_ready_for_men_in_skirt_1.html
http://bethciotta.blogspot.com/2008/11/whats-sarong-with-skirt.html



There are 2 types of cd. One presents as male whilst wearing female clothes. The other presents as female because they lack courage to be seen as a man with a different style.

The CD who presents as a male while wearing female clothes doesn't have a feminine gender ID. I think the fashions above were designed for this group of people in mind. But, if these fashions ever became mainstream, the wearer would no longer be CDing, would he? ;)

I disagree that the CDs who present as female do so because they lack courage to present as a man in a skirt. You've heard of gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID)? I'm guessing this describes the vast majority of the members here, whether part or full-time, although they do not all identify as transsexual. They do NOT want to present as male (for CDs this would only be part-time). They want to experience the thrill and/or inner satisfaction of being seen as a woman and being treated like one, again if only some of the time.

[LitaKelley]

I looked at those "man skirts" and I don't like them, nor the styles as seen in the photos, etc.. The whole allure of crossdressing for me is LOOKING LIKE A WOMAN and as for courage of presenting as male in women's clothes.. I don't want to be a man in woman's clothes.. I want to be seen as a WOMAN, otherwise I wouldn't have on makeup and a wig, earings, etc.. Wearing a skirt as a man has no appeal to me. Sure skirts are more comfortable than pants, but that's not why I love wearing skirts...

What of pantyhose for men? Same thing.. I'm not wearing them for any of the reasons given for "pantyhose for me"....

Another thing about courage I wanted to say is, if I may be "read" as a man in women's clothes, then yes, certainly I'll lack courage of going out.. however, if I can present myself as a woman and "pass", then all the fear dissipates, so I will continue to learn make up, work on my voice, mannerisms, walk, etc until I am confident in not only myself, but that others would see me as a woman, and not a man in women's clothing.

[Pythos]

I have to agree with Emma.
I personally do not like the skirts marketed to men. They are for one way too thick, and kilt like for me. Others are just a disaster to look upon. Does the term table cloth come to mind?:) I am not all that into pleated skirts, though I am tempted to get the H & M skirts coming out this fall.

I look at being limited to kilt like skirts to be just as limiting as being limited to pants.

I like form fitting tight skirts, or mini skirts, and like Emma, I see nothing that denotes gender in them. I have heard the argument about the cut...which makes no sense to me when it comes to a skirt. Now pants, and dresses, most certainly have "a cut". Women's pants fit a bit differently in the hip area than men's pants. But skirts do not. There is no inseam to limit who can wear it. It is all about perception, and a perception that needs to be sunk.

As far as taking on a female appearance due to a lack of courage on the man to appear as a male in a skirt, I can sort of see this. I can see it in my self. I do go out in clothing designed for women from the get go, but as a male. But I only do that when it comes to skirts when I am going to a friend's house, or party, or club. I would only do full on CDing for a costume party, or... and this is the important thing, to be able to wear the clothing I like, and not get any guff for being a guy in said clothing.

Does this really help? Nope.

It hinders men gaining more fashion freedom. It only reinforces the limitations placed upon us, for the most part by our own selves.

When I posted about wearing my Spandex Jeans to work, I got several people telling me to watch out, and not take it too far. Now I understand why, but at the same time found it an unneeded detractor. Why? Because I already know I am taking a chance. I already know wearing those pants is pushing some boundaries. I have so far done it three times, and have had no issues except being asked if they were hot to wear, due to them being made of nylon (and in answer to that I responded "nope")

I have said this before, and I will keep saying it. We are our own worst enemies.

I think the only reason I did full on CDing was A) out of curiosity based off what a GG said about my Goth style, and B) As a possible means of being able to wear the styles I like without facing guff from ignorant people. (I know that that is not a reality cause I may look feminine, and have some movements that are graceful in nature, but my voice and manerisms are a clear give away. LOL)

[butch22]

my name is Linda
I'm new to crossdressing never have but want to try it ot to see how it feels.
can you give me some tips

thanks

[Maria 60]

When wearing jeans, 90% of the time i have pantys and pantyhose on. My wife tells me to wear pantyhose to her parents house,she loves the idea that its our secret, or when going to a department store she may ask me to take my socks off wearing only my shoes and pantyhose. My pants cover the pantyhose,but at times i feel the air on my ankles.

[briefing0007]

I have driven while wearing panties and a bra, but dressed as a man. At first I was nervous, but as my four hour drive went on, I became more relaxed and instead of shielding my "breasts" with my arms, I sat back in my seat and stuck out my chest proudly, even at stoplights. Not sure what people actually saw or thought, but it was exciting to me.

[Dalece]

The only time in male clothing is a work that is because i'm a security gaurd and require a uniform with armed equipment. underneath all girl bra and panties. when i get off duty and home it is off with the unifrom and into a dress. LOve being a girl

[Satrana]

But the difference as I understand it, between the 60's hippies, the 70's glam rockers, and TGs is that the hippies and glam rockers did not attempt to present as women. Quite true, my point was more about the fact that cis men were also exploring gender boundaries at the height of the feminist movement but the different circumstances of men in society meant such explorations were doomed.

I think though that if we ever were to live in a society where men had gender expression freedom then most men who now grow up to be CDs would not do so. It is impossible to prove my idea of course but I see no real reason why a boy would develop the type of CD behavior we see now if he had always had the freedom to wear what he wanted and there were lots of male role models for him to copy and not just GGs. In which case your point about not wanting to present as a woman would be immaterial as (CD) men would then probably have the same agenda as cis men.

Your point about skirts designed for men misses the point because such items are being designed for cis men meaning they are butched up. CDs are after femininity not masculinity. Now if a designer produced skirts and dresses for CD men ie they had exactly the same look and feel as GG clothes were were just cut slightly differently for the male body shape then why not?

Its not actually about the clothes per se but about the meaning and message attached to them.


And if ever the gender gap in clothing should disappear entirely, if all the skirts and pants were to be made available for both genders in all the fabrics and colors, I think the TGs would find different aspects of themselves to change, in order to present more as women than men. Only for those on the TS side who want to be women. In such a world there is no closet, no guilt, no shame and lots of GM role models. Our whole behavior would be quite different if we had always taken for granted the use of feminine clothing. It is not realistic to believe our behavior would remain the same if the underlying criteria were to drastically change.

[ReineD]

I think though that if we ever were to live in a society where men had gender expression freedom then most men who now grow up to be CDs would not do so. It is impossible to prove my idea of course but I see no real reason why a boy would develop the type of CD behavior we see now if he had always had the freedom to wear what he wanted and there were lots of male role models for him to copy and not just GGs. In which case your point about not wanting to present as a woman would be immaterial as (CD) men would then probably have the same agenda as cis men.

I've always assumed the premise that CDing (for the most part) went much deeper than just being about the clothes, therefore if everyone wore the same unisex clothing and jewelry in the same fabrics, colors, and styles, the CDs would still look for ways to emulate a woman's looks, although they'd be restricted to shaving body hair, changing hair styles and applying makeup. Who knows, maybe there'd be more feminization surgeries?

But, it is true there are fewer F2M than M2F CDs (I'm not talking about TSs), and maybe this is because genetic women can choose to reject the skirts and the dresses if they wish and adopt clothing that is not as adorned, whereas if a GM were to reject unadorned pants, what would he wear? Now before anyone else comments on this, I'm NOT saying that women who wear pants are CDing. There are lots of femininely styled pants out there that would never be mistaken for men's clothes. But there are also the Levi jeans for example, and other unisex brand names which don't look any different in men's or women's styles, yet they are designed without any feminine embellishments (enabling men to wear these styles too).

Here's an interesting idea. If we all lived in nudist colonies, if razors for cutting hair did not exist, and if clothing chosen for warmth was completely devoid of style, if there was no such thing as the idea that we should embellish and artificially differentiate ourselves, would there still be CDs? If there wouldn't be, then does this mean that CDing is only really about a clothing fetish? I rather think there be more TSs, more people unhappy with their birth bodies and biological function, since the focus could not be about how unfair it is that we do have double standards in terms of clothing choices.



Your point about skirts designed for men misses the point because such items are being designed for cis men meaning they are butched up. CDs are after femininity not masculinity. Now if a designer produced skirts and dresses for CD men ie they had exactly the same look and feel as GG clothes were were just cut slightly differently for the male body shape then why not?

This is the point I was trying to make. :) CDs would not buy the skirts and dresses designed for men who wish to present male.

Your other idea is quite novel though. I wonder if CDs would opt for female clothing designed for men (they'd have to be designed for men with cinchers and forms), or if the CDs would still rather shop in the women's sections. It's food for thought for everyone.

There was a thread some time ago about a CD wishing to buy construction boots and asking about brands that made them in women's styles. I pointed out a brand name that was identically styled for men and women, except the width and sizes were different, but the women's boots were more expensive. This CD said that paying the extra money was worth it because it made her feel better that she was wearing women's boots.

[Jason+]

.....Your other idea is quite novel though. I wonder if CDs would opt for female clothing designed for men (they'd have to be designed for men with cinchers and forms), or if the CDs would still rather shop in the women's sections. It's food for thought for everyone.

There was a thread some time ago about a CD wishing to buy construction boots and asking about brands that made them in women's styles. I pointed out a brand name that was identically styled for men and women, except the width and sizes were different, but the women's boots were more expensive. This CD said that paying the extra money was worth it because it made her feel better that she was wearing women's boots.

The ability to pull out a tag/receipt to show the naysayers that the "utilikilt" or "comfilons" in question were indeed made for men would likely not dissuade them much in their opinions or justify the cost upwards of $200 for what I can get at the 'mart stores for $20 but then the clothes I have didn't come from the womens section because it was the womens section that's just where they were.

[Satrana]

I've always assumed the premise that CDing (for the most part) went much deeper than just being about the clothes, therefore if everyone wore the same unisex clothing and jewelry in the same fabrics, colors, and styles, the CDs would still look for ways to emulate a woman's looks This argument goes to the heart of what CDing is actually about - is it really about men wanting to be women or men wanting the freedom to express femininity but being forbidden to do so as a male? I believe the former describes TS while the latter describes CDs. However a lot of CDs describe their motivation as wanting to be a woman because only GGs are allowed to openly express femininity so there is a blurring of the line between two quite different motivations.

My basis for this argument is that most CDs when young start off with just relating to a single piece of female clothing like stockings or panties. The idea of presenting as an actual women in full emulation is an idea and practice that develops many years later. So emulating women is something CDs learn to do over time as they push the boundaries of exploring their desire to express femininity.

Then there are two types of infatuation that obscures the original source of motivation. The first is the desire to inhabit an alternative fantasy universe that lets them be someone else. You can see parallels in other groups who do the same thing such as the huge online muliplayer games universes or even Trekkies who dress up as Dr Spock or Klingons and even learn the totally made-up Klingon language at university. The more detailed and believeable the universe is, the more addictive it becomes. This explains why CDs are so particular about detailing every minute aspect of GG life because it makes the alternative reality more real and enjoyable.

The second infatuation is the clothes themselves - something which GGs can get caught up with themselves. No need to explain this one any further except to say that female styles are so elaborate and eye-catching they are actually designed to be appealing and addictive.


Here's an interesting idea. If we all lived in nudist colonies, if razors for cutting hair did not exist, and if clothing chosen for warmth was completely devoid of style, if there was no such thing as the idea that we should embellish and artificially differentiate ourselves, would there still be CDs? Yes there would but the focus would be quite different. CDs would have to copy female mannerisms but the lack of a visual transformation would inhibit the process of creating an alternative reality and of course there would be no clothes infatuation either. In this environment the true source of CDing would be apparent ie men wishing to express their feminine side.


I wonder if CDs would opt for female clothing designed for men (they'd have to be designed for men with cinchers and forms), or if the CDs would still rather shop in the women's sections. I think it would be a mixture. Some would appreciate the practicality of better fitting clothes (isnt this why CD shops like Transformation were created?) while others will believe buying real GG clothes enhances and validates their alternative universe where they become women.

[Jennifer N.]

Klaire,
I enjoy the clothes also, and have a hard time finding the opportunity to dress completely (which I have done a few times) and go out and about. So, I wear hose and flats with women jeans and a male shirt out sometimes when I am out of town. Just this past Fri. I went into two Payless Shoe stores wearing pantyhose with jeans and black women flats. I also, went into a Lebo's and bought a pair of Danskin tights dressed the same way and no one said a word. At the first Payless I tried on three pairs of shoes. I went to a Books A Million and bought a mag the same day. It was exciting and a relief. Dress as you please and be smart and safe.

[Frédérique]

As usual, I'm late to the party (I mean thread). Pardon me while I quote the OP:


I also hate the way that men are forced into wearing a very limited style of clothes which women are not - and this is kinda like my way of having being able to express myself and challenge the limits society have placed on what men can wear.

Is it really challenging the limits placed upon you, or do you simply like wearing certain things? Keep it simple I say, and disregard any guidelines placed along your path to happiness. Do you ever see a female who obviously can, or could, dress the way YOU want to, yet she completely avoids the possibilities, or the effort, and dresses down (for comfort)? That bothers me, but it speaks volumes about difference, i.e. whether or not the individual in question even cares about what she could do, if only as an expression of some sort. Of course, I suppose you need to begin with a desire to express something...


So, question: Has anyone ever worn anything female related other than underwear while still being in "male mode" and if so what was it like? To take the above further, if I where to stop at a motorway services and swap into jeans, and jumper but leave the shoes on, do you think I would making an error of judgment or would people probably not notice and/or ignore me?

I don’t think people notice all that much – in your example, it all depends if someone is looking down for some reason, in your vicinity, and/or has the audacity to point out something that goes against his or her sense of propriety. What gives? You’ll be gone by then, a memory that will give birth to a story on another website, or a blog about unusual gender-queer phenomena…

I’ve worn various combinations of male/female garments, as I slip surreptitiously in and out of my transformative adventures, but it all depends on what I see before me – every situation is different, and I dress accordingly. Like I say, most people won’t notice any discrepancy, and those who do will not (or rarely) reveal the evidence…

[Maria 60]

Going to a wedding of a old friend i havent seen in 5yrs. My wife was pushing me to underdress,she said we dont know many people there. I put on pink lacey pantie and taupe stay ups. I wanted to wear pantyhose but didnt want to worry about anything showing from the back of my pants. I was walking out the door and at the last second i chickened out and got changed. While at the wedding a group song came on and before i knew it, my friends sister grabbed me and took me to the dance floor. Once on the dance floor the dj asked the woman to pull up the mens pants to the knee to do a Russian dance. WOW my heart droped to my stomach.

[Sophiewouldbenice]

I was also outside as man in a "feminin" jacket, top, pantyhose. It was at night and nobody said a word, it was nice ;) - I had not to worry about the look of the hair, if the wig could be spotted or if the makeup was smeared or to heavy. Well being out all make up is also nice ;)

[Pythos]

er.....Sophie..... you just said you went outside in a jacket, top, and pantyhose. Please tell me the jacket was long, or you had some kind of skirt or dress over the hose. LOL I mean I have gone out wearing only a sweater, hose and heels, but the sweater was long enough it could be pulled down and belted in a manner it formed a dress.

[Sophiewouldbenice]

Well, unfortunately there was no mirror ^^, yes, the pantyhose could have been a little bit thicker to avoid the view on the undergarment - well never again ^^

[Tracii G]

I wear women's clothes all the time so a skirt in guy mode is not out of line IMO.
I have done it several times even mowed my lawn in a denim skirt.Hell may even wear a skirt today.

[Jmichelle60]

I own more womens jeans than men's. I wear women's polo shirts, tennis shoes, socks, etc. in addition to the normal underdressing.

[Loni]

most of my "male" things were bought in the womans dept, the jeans just fit better i do not like the baggy look or feel. tops are woman's also. even my loafers.
but then most of my male stuff is only for work, and a pile of T-shirts.
when at home i am in a skirt.
undies are almost all woman's, just a bunch of socks and a couple pairs of male briefs.

.

[seatown9]

I've worn pantyhose, tights, thigh highs, panties and bra's to work... love it!