The Dressing Heirarchy

[AKAMichelle]

Last night I went to Fort Collins to a dance with a dear friend of mine. As we were walking through the college students, Kayla made an odd statement which got me thinking. She said that she was being read because she was with a cd'er. She was ok with this, but being TS she is always afraid of somebody attacking her because of it. She is a girl in my book. I couldn't see a guy anywhere when we first met 2 years ago. Last night I saw so many changes in her that I couldn't believe it. She was one really cute blond chick. But her statement made me a little sad because I couldn't pass anywhere near her level. So yes I caused her to be noticed more because she was there with me.

When we go out, do we somehow have a judgement process of other cd'ers to determine their passability. Depending upon that evaluation do we decide if we ever go out with them again? Is that why we go to only TG friendly places because we would stick out like a sore thumb in a regular establishment?

I have avoided going out again with other cd'ers if they wore too skimpy of clothes and didn't really try to hide the fact that they were a cd'er. I attract enough attention but I don't want to be out with someone who attracts attention at 1000 yards when I only do 100 yards.

[Persephone]

It might be a little tricky to figure out in the situation you described!

In general, I've always believed that being with one or more GG's improves your passability. The only exception might be a height issue if all of the GG's are far shorter than you are, so it works best if you hang with GG's around your height

My informal formula that says that passing deteriorates by the square of the number of CD's. So 2 CD's together will be 4 times as likely to be read, 3 together will be 9 times as likely, etc.

From what you describe, your friend should effectively image as a GG, but she says the mix of just the two of you isn't perfect. O.K., what if you add two (or more) GG's to your group?

Hugs,
Persephone.

[AKAMichelle]

I don't think the GG would help like loosing 50 pounds would. I am work in progress and I am ok with that. My friend is fine being with me but we didn't walk side by side through the maze of college students. Part of that was because only one person could walk through at a time.

[kellycan27]

It's not just about being with a non-passable cder Michelle. It's a hard life and if and when you are finally able to transend being a transsexual and make your way in the mainstream undetected, reminders of past experiences don't bode very well. it's like....been there have the t-shirt.
I don't do TG or LBGT venues simply because there isn't anything there for me, and again they only serve as reminders of unpleasant memories.
Some people say that I should not "forget" where I came from, but to be perfectly honest...that is exactly what I want to do. Yes we are all in this thing together as we sit here and chat, but once the computer is turned off, it's just me. I am not a transsexual, I am a woman. It's nothing personal. Even if you get read and I don't when we are together.. your being read still reminds me of...."me". I have a life and I have plans and dreams. Being a transsexual doesn't fit into any of that.

Kel

[Kate Simmons]

I am very well aware of the so called "heirarchy" in the TG world Michelle. It was evident and in play when I was a member of my former TG Org. Problem is, it only really exists in the minds of some people.The quicker we all realize that, the better.:)

[charlie]

I am very well aware of the so called "heirarchy" in the TG world Michelle. It was evident and in play when I was a member of my former TG Org. Problem is, it only really exists in the minds of some people.The quicker we all realize that, the better.:)

What I am afraid of Denise and Michelle, is that the problem exists in the minds of the general public. I have a friend that really looks like a guy in a dress. On top of that she will only wear short, short dresses and flamboyant makeup. If I go out with her I have a good time with her, but must get the "look at the two drag queens" comment again and again. I have asked her to tone it down, but she wants to look like she wants to look. Quite frankly, I just want to blend as well as I can. I'm looking for as little trouble as possible when I go out. Usually I hear very little, or get many strange looks....except when I go out with her. I guess I'm guilty of playing the TG hierarchy.

[Gillian]

I don't think the GG would help like loosing 50 pounds would. I am work in progress and I am ok with that. My friend is fine being with me but we didn't walk side by side through the maze of college students. Part of that was because only one person could walk through at a time.

I think your selling yourself a bit short on this, the psychology of the situation is telling me something else, I think your friend feels marginalised and on the edge of her desired society and being seen with someone who draws attention to her own past self to herself is possibly the basis of her reaction, I wonder if she appreciated how cruel her actions and words were when she spoke them, as she is obviously desperate to be accepted and distance herself from anyone or anything that will cause that to fail.

Sorry just thinking outloud, but that is what I sense.

[AllieSF]

Some very good comments here. I like to look at it from the perspective of first me as a man and who, man or woman, I would feel comfortable to go out with. Then compare that to the same situation if I went out dressed as a woman. So, for me, I probably would not go out to mainstream places (restaurants, theaters, etc.) with someone who wasn't more in line with how I act, dress and interface with other people. Therefore, if I probably wouldn't go out with someone in male mode, I probably wouldn't go out with a similar someone if we were both dressed as women. Now, when I am going to a club, Tgathering, or event where everyone may or may not be dressed or act on the edge, it really does not bother me at all. Of course, in all this the other person's personality and depth of personal relationship with me also comes into play.

[Sally24]

This is really not much different than a GG. Growing up many girls have friends that dress in different fashions, goth, ****ty, mousey, over the top high glam. They don't always want that friend with them depending on the venue. It's just like making judgements on people's behaviors. I've got friends that I love being with but that because of them being loud, or silly, I would not go with them to certain places. I don't mind standing out, but like to choose the where and when myself.

[kellycan27]

I think your selling yourself a bit short on this, the psychology of the situation is telling me something else, I think your friend feels marginalised and on the edge of her desired society and being seen with someone who draws attention to her own past self to herself is possibly the basis of her reaction, I wonder if she appreciated how cruel her actions and words were when she spoke them, as she is obviously desperate to be accepted and distance herself from anyone or anything that will cause that to fail.

Sorry just thinking outloud, but that is what I sense.

I think you are confusing desperation with "desire" Just as cder's want to be able do dress and do as they please without fear of confrontation so do transsexuals. Being seen with a non passable is not going to cause a TS to "fail" ..it's just a moment in time and will have no lasting effect as far as acceptance in society. I don't understand why some people, cder's and some TS's alike seem to take other's personal "desires" as some sort of personal affront that they need to psychoanalyze.

[AKAMichelle]

It's not just about being with a non-passable cder Michelle. It's a hard life and if and when you are finally able to transend being a transsexual and make your way in the mainstream undetected, reminders of past experiences don't bode very well. it's like....been there have the t-shirt.
I don't do TG or LBGT venues simply because there isn't anything there for me, and again they only serve as reminders of unpleasant memories.
Some people say that I should not "forget" where I came from, but to be perfectly honest...that is exactly what I want to do. Yes we are all in this thing together as we sit here and chat, but once the computer is turned off, it's just me. I am not a transsexual, I am a woman. It's nothing personal. Even if you get read and I don't when we are together.. your being read still reminds me of...."me". I have a life and I have plans and dreams. Being a transsexual doesn't fit into any of that.

Kel

I understand this sentiment and if I was TS I think after a certain point I would disappear. Once you fully transition to the point that you go about your life unnoticed, then I would see it as a possilbe way to out yourself after all of that work to hide to in plain sight.

I know how hard it is transition becasue I have thought about it myself for a long time. I know what a TS person endures and I felt bad because my presence caused a problem for her. I never intended to do that. In fact she is one of my best friends. We have helped each other through multiple things and I would never want to hurt even unintentionally.

[Jason+]

I have avoided going out again with other cd'ers if they wore too skimpy of clothes and didn't really try to hide the fact that they were a cd'er. I attract enough attention but I don't want to be out with someone who attracts attention at 1000 yards when I only do 100 yards.


What I am afraid of Denise and Michelle, is that the problem exists in the minds of the general public. I have a friend that really looks like a guy in a dress. On top of that she will only wear short, short dresses and flamboyant makeup. If I go out with her I have a good time with her, but must get the "look at the two drag queens" comment again and again. I have asked her to tone it down, but she wants to look like she wants to look. Quite frankly, I just want to blend as well as I can. I'm looking for as little trouble as possible when I go out. Usually I hear very little, or get many strange looks....except when I go out with her. I guess I'm guilty of playing the TG hierarchy.

It is for this reason I have only been to one Tri-Ess meeting and don't have any plans to attend very many CD/TG events. I am not particularly flamboyant in most of my choices but I am unwilling to pay the admission price of passing. Out of respect for the groups/girls that are I would not want to go with them and draw them extra unnecessary attention just to be me. I would expect of any of my friends that were willing to go out and about with me to let me know before the event and to perhaps choose someone else to go with if they felt there would be an issue for them because of me. I am not sure your friend was completely fair to you on that one.

[Faith_G]

I can't imagine saying something like that to one of my friends. Even if I felt it I would never say that, it's an unkind thing to say.

I'm sorry she pushed her insecurity off on you. :hugs:

[Daenna Paz]

[QUOTE=AKAMichelle;2248934]
When we go out, do we somehow have a judgement process of other cd'ers to determine their passability. Depending upon that evaluation do we decide if we ever go out with them again? Is that why we go to only TG friendly places because we would stick out like a sore thumb in a regular establishment?

Don't we, in 'regular life' apply some kind of scaling process to those we socialize with?
We should not, but we do at times stereotype people ...

I refuse to evaluate / judge my friends by how they 'get by' or what they wear. I have been out with persons that pass remarkably well to those who are read 1/4 mile away ... can't say that it has affected my desire to go somewhere with them ... I go anywhere, not just "T G friendly" places, and don't worry about my thumb ... LOL!!! :eek:

Just my .02 ...

[Nicole Erin]

You mean trahnnies run around in packs?
I can't believe it! :eek:

[Danni Bear]

Oh yes Nicole
btw signing you up for next pack :tongueout
anybody want to volunter for den mother?

Danni

[sissystephanie]

I don't believe the hierarchy is with the general public at all. It is with a few, among the millions, people who have very closed minds!

I say this because since my wife passed away I have still been going out in public, dressed enfemme, a lot! But the difference is that in no way am I trying to pass. I wear no wig or makeup. I am just a guy in a skirt and femme top with the appropiate lady things underneath. I haven't had one bad comment yet, and most of the time don't even get a second look. There have been numerous compliments on my outfits, and some requests as to where I bought the skirt or top!

The problem with thinking about a hierarchy is that we are all indivduals! I dress to please myself, not the people on this forum or anywhere else! That is what each of us should do!! The only exception I make to that rule is my own family! Yes, they know I CD, but I do not wear skirts or dresses around them. But I am almost always underdressed!!

I do think that sometimes people worry about things that should not be worried about!

[kellycan27]

Michelle
I do understand where your friend is coming from, but I don't think I could ever come right out and say.. hey, you're cramping my style. I did ask one friend to please tone it down a notch for a church rummage sale once.
I certainly ( to be honest) thought it at times.

Kel

[AKAMichelle]

[QUOTE=AKAMichelle;2248934]
When we go out, do we somehow have a judgement process of other cd'ers to determine their passability. Depending upon that evaluation do we decide if we ever go out with them again? Is that why we go to only TG friendly places because we would stick out like a sore thumb in a regular establishment?

Don't we, in 'regular life' apply some kind of scaling process to those we socialize with?
We should not, but we do at times stereotype people ...

I refuse to evaluate / judge my friends by how they 'get by' or what they wear. I have been out with persons that pass remarkably well to those who are read 1/4 mile away ... can't say that it has affected my desire to go somewhere with them ... I go anywhere, not just "T G friendly" places, and don't worry about my thumb ... LOL!!! :eek:

Just my .02 ...

I know that you are this way because you went out with me and want to do more outings. Either you are a good sport or a gluten for punishment. :D Or just like the places I choose for dinner.


Michelle
I do understand where your friend is coming from, but I don't think I could ever come right out and say.. hey, you're cramping my style. I did ask one friend to please tone it down a notch for a church rummage sale once.
I certainly ( to be honest) thought it at times.

Kel

She didn't say anything to me. In fact we talked today and told me that she would go anywhere with me. She didn't care if I was read or not. I just felt bad because I know how dangerous it is for a TS person to be outed.

[Samantha Girl]

I'm with Sissystephanie on this ;)

I understand how your TS friend was feeling Michelle but I feel like that was kinda crappy to tell you when you were out and about. If it bothers her, maybe she should have talked to you about it before that. That's my feeling. Hope you figure it out and this doesn't continue to worry you ;)

Some of you would NEVER go out with me that's for sure. I do not pass, I may look like it, but I really don't and I don't really care to personally. I have confidence now and it's simply not important to me. I stick out like sore thumb with my big hair, ****ty outfits and big old 5 inch platform kneeboots (which all make me like 6 foot 5 instead of 5 foot 10!) Never leave home en femme without'em! :p

I went to NYC on vacation earlier this week and I went to a burlesque show en femme. I was standing outside the club smoking a cigarette next to the Williamsburg Bridge and I could give a crap about the doubletakes I received. It was soooo XXXXXXX liberating! :cheer: We are all different and have different ideas on what it is to be a CD. Heirarchy... SMheirarchy!! :p

[Sarah Doepner]

Since I'm one of those who can attract unwanted attention, regardless of how well I prepare, I'd feel bad for anyone with me who also became the focus of attention just because they were with me. I have a friend who has transitioned and is well on her way to living life as a woman. When we meet I am pleased that she will stick around with me and even drag me along as we try to catch up on one another's lives.

On the other hand, I remember blending quite well one time and moving away from a group of other T-girls who were attracting attention. In retrospect I felt ashamed for my choice, but I was becoming very uncomfortable with the kind of attention being generated, including some strong comments by drunk young men. It wasn't safe and even though they were aware of the attention, there was no effort being made to make any changes, so I left. Nothing happened, so maybe I was just a little bit of a frightened bunny that night.

We all have our needs. We share a common one here but each of us has to make our own decisions and protect our well being, physical and mental. We share what we can and try to open doors for our community, but when the chips are down, we really do have to look out for ourselves first. Fortunately, most of the time our choices are pretty simple and don't cause any harm.

[MsJanessa]

what most transexuals want is not merely "to pass" but to be truely accepted as women--often heterosexual women--they want to be "normal"---hanging around with CDers and other T-types or gay guys is out of the mainstream for most GGs, and for a transexual is more of a reminder of what she used to be, not what she aspires to become. That's probably what your friend was experiencing---and although it's sad (and a little insensitive on her part to make you feel so uncomfortable) it's generally the way it goes. Not so much a heirarchy but a seperatness---once a TS is living sucessfully as a woman with the SRS etc, they really don't want to be reminded that they used to be male--so they tend to distance themselves from those things and people that remind them.

[Chickhe]

I think its just the way it is...but, also she may be too quick to believe she is being read just because she is with a CDer. I recently met a member of a local group who was full time, in some ways she was not passable (her method of speaking and tone of her voice was, to me at least, very masculine), but her body was feminine. She thought I looked great (I'm just a part time CDer) and said I should have no problems in public...and I never do.. I know I'm read up close though... so, In my case, I suppose it could have been the reverse case. She was so comfortable just being herself that this didn't really matter to either of us and to me mostly I shy away from the spotlight, but on this day we just shopped, made a bit of noise and nobody paid us any attention...but what was happening is she is comfortable being seen as a TS and being seen as a female is bonus. or not all that important to her.

[AKAMichelle]

Let me make it clear that my friend never said anything to me. She never did anything to make me thing what I did.

I just felt bad because I was getting read and I know how unsafe it is for to be read as a transitioning woman. We talked about it and she told me that there are certain cd'ers that she won't go out with because they attract too much of the wrong attention. That got me thinking about this hierarchy thing. So I posed the question to see if I was trying to see something that wasn't there or not.

My TS friend and I are best friends. We are very close and I have to prod her hard to get her to tell me the tough items because she is so worried about my feelings. She finally today told me after a lot of prodding that my walk needed work. So I guess I will to work the equitte of proper ladylike walking soon. :D


On the other hand, I remember blending quite well one time and moving away from a group of other T-girls who were attracting attention. In retrospect I felt ashamed for my choice, but I was becoming very uncomfortable with the kind of attention being generated, including some strong comments by drunk young men. It wasn't safe and even though they were aware of the attention, there was no effort being made to make any changes, so I left. Nothing happened, so maybe I was just a little bit of a frightened bunny that night.

This is my point. I have done the same thing before. I think we all have. I have avoided going out with some because they don't pass very well. I still remember one person who I went to eat with who wore a very short skirt to do shopping and very high heels and she was already 6'3". She was drawing unwanted attention which I wasn't comfortable with. I try to go places and do things and have everybody leave me alone. I don't cause trouble for others and in turn I don't want any from them.

[DianeDeBris]

"She finally today told me after a lot of prodding that my walk needed work. So I guess I will to work the equitte of proper ladylike walking soon."

Hi Michelle -- it sounds to me like your friend is a true, honest, caring friend -- else she would not have offered the suggestions for improvement; I hope you are comfortable accepting her sincere love for you! Hugs -- Diane

[t-girlxsophie]

my best friend is in her early 60s and dresses like a teenager,this is always been the way she is and wouldn't change her for the world
Though at times I do get rather self conscious It doesn't stop me from enjoying time out dressed with her.

But I have had rather hurtful comments from one or two TS about her,and one I thought of as a friend refused to walk with us.Although this was an isolated incident,as we have a few awesome TS friends It hurt us both,even though we understand a little of their concerns we cant put ourselves in their shoes and this is probably why we lose touch with many of them,sad but a fact of life

:hugs:Sophie xx

[eluuzion]

We all have a friend or two that has that “innocent” but annoying propensity to embarrass or insult us. Many times it is not an intention blow, but simply a display of their weak social skills in the areas of diplomacy, tact and empathy. They are the friends that will always point out that stain on our clothes or blemish on our skin, in much the same manner young children do.

Life is a hierarchical battle for position in a food chain of self-image for those with low ego strength. It is a high maintenance lifestyle requiring constant affirmation and confirmation. “What is on the inside” may still be important, but what “really matters” in their world is “what is on the “outside”. (Appearance)

We are all susceptible by some degree to the “competitive” nature of the “attractiveness” pageant we all seem to enter by default when we are “single” (available). Of course some take it more seriously than others do. Some consume their lives with the process. I do not happen to be one of them.

We all “juggle” the varied personalities of our friends and which activities we choose to share with each one. It is not an issue specific to CD, but simply one aspect present in the CD world, just as it is everywhere else. I may be your best choice as a buddy to go partying with at the clubs, but a poor choice as your sidekick to attend a NRA gun show or sewing bee. No personal or friendship issues are at stake in that scenario. It is simply a matter of personality fit to the event.

But there is never justification for taking personal and insulting shots at a person that you consider to be your friend. Nor is there any excuse for continuing a “friendship” with a person that is willing to promote their self interest at my expense, in any circumstances.

But, hey, that is just me…

:love:

[Daenna Paz]

[QUOTE=AKAMichelle;2249340][QUOTE=Daenna Paz;2249319]

I know that you are this way because you went out with me and want to do more outings. Either you are a good sport or a gluten for punishment. :D Or just like the places I choose for dinner.


Well, I do like a bit of good punishment ... :devil: :devil: :devil:

And your dining choices are beyond excellent!! :drink:

[PretzelGirl]

Sometimes we have to learn from our GG sisters. I go out with my wife and daughter. I usually dress appropriately compared to the way they are dressing so we have the same general style which hopefully draws less possible attention. But they have encouraged me to dress up more and they don't care.

So I have gone on a couple of shopping trips with my wife, daughter, and a CD friend. This CD friend has talked about dressing down, but states that she finds her fun in dressing up. I told her to dress as she pleases, not like anyone else "just because". Well, she had a good time, I had a good time. Yes we turned some heads. Who cares?

[Alice Torn]

A lot of good posts here. We live in very complex, and stressful, changing times, and friendships are hard to comeby, and hard to maintain. Whether ts, cd, tg, gay, lesbian, marriage, or whatever. I dare say, some of us on this site, have none, or few close friends! And, if we do, their are several levels, which the biggest would be acquaintences. Then, friends, then close friends, then mates. A dad reality, is that we all hurt others at times, usually unknowingly, and we get hurt by friends, usually unknowingly. Human nature is so bloody FICKLE!! I know i am. Friendships fade, because one person may be growing and changing, and the other is not. So, we drift apart. I am coming to believe more and more, that WALKING, AND STANDING ALONE, is something we all must grow to be able to do, and NOT be DEPENDENT too much on others . This has taken me decades to learn, and with bi-polar, and depression, it is still not easy, being alone most all of the time, even in a crowd. I admit, that i am way too self conscious, and have a hard time being a friend, rather than a CODEPENDENT. So many of us have been hurt badly.

[Pythos]

I truly cannot believe a post I read.

I read someone actually say they have friends that they would not bring along to certain things BASED ON THEIR LOOKS.

Oh my God!!!

The ONLY criteria I have for not inviting someone is their behavior or personality.

I have a big friend that I would be leery inviting to some events I go of, not because of how he can at times dress slovenly, but because of his temper.

Let me just flip this around on a person that would exclude someone because of what they wear?

What if your friends decided to leave you out of something because to them you dress like a fuddy duddy? That is just as wrong.

Going back in time a bit. That silly show the Adams family. Did you all notice how the interactions between the general public and Morticia, Gomez and clan was not affected in the most part by their appearance?

Wouldn't that be a great world to live in?

The only way that can ever happen is for everyone to throw aside their prejudice. When it comes to how someone appears (within reason of course, someone dressing like a circus clown would not be very easy to handle. Some looking like a girl, when they are a guy, is a slightly different thing.)

When it comes to inviting my friends for something their appearance is last on the criteria of acceptance.

[Daenna Paz]

[QUOTE=Pythos;2249795]Going back in time a bit. That silly show the Adams family. Did you all notice how the interactions between the general public and Morticia, Gomez and clan was not affected in the most part by their appearance?

Ahhhh..... Morticia ... what a foxy woman!! ;^)

Always loved her!

[Pythos]

Morticia is one lady I would love to be with. LOL

[Rianna Humble]

Some people say that I should not "forget" where I came from, but to be perfectly honest...that is exactly what I want to do. Yes we are all in this thing together as we sit here and chat, but once the computer is turned off, it's just me. I am not a transsexual, I am a woman. It's nothing personal.
...
I have a life and I have plans and dreams. Being a transsexual doesn't fit into any of that.

I can understand that you want to put the past behind you and nobody has the right to criticise you for that.

I am grateful that you still want to visit here and to help those of us who are not as far into our journey as you. It is not a question of "where you came from", it is about you sharing your insights and wisdom with others because that is what you are willing to do. And if one day you decide to move on, I will be sad to see you go (as I am when any of my friends moves on) but will wish you all the best for your future.