Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

[AmandaM]

Well, it looks like they found a differentiation between homosexuality and transsexualism in the brain. And it appears that late onset transsexuals are no different in this regard than early onset transsexuals. In fact, TS's are found to be similar to genetic females whereas in this area, homosexuals are found to be similar to heterosexuals. Interesting.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

To wit:
The number of SOM neurons in the BSTc of heterosexual men (32.9 ± 3.0 x 103) was 71% higher than that in heterosexual women (19.2 ± 2.5 x 103) (P < 0.006), whereas the number of neurons in heterosexual and homosexual men (34.6 ± 3.4 x 103) was similar (P = 0.83). The BSTc number of neurons was 81% higher in homosexual men than in heterosexual women (P < 0.004). The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of females (19.6 ± 3.3 x 103) (P = 0.83) (see also Figs. 1 and 2). In addition, the neuron number of the FMT was clearly in the male range (see Fig. 1). The number of neurons in transsexuals was 40% lower than that found in the heterosexual reference males (P < 0.04; see the legend to Fig. 1) and 44% lower than that found in the homosexual males (P < 0.02). Including patients S2, S3, and S5 in the male group and S1, S6, and M2 in the female group or S7 in the transsexual group to increase the number of their respective gender groups enhanced the level of significance among the groups (P < 0.001 for SOM neuron number). There seemed to be no clear difference in the BSTc number of neurons between early onset (T2, T5, T6) and late-onset transsexuals (T1, T3), indicating that their smaller number of neurons is related to the gender identity per se rather than to the age at which it became apparent.

[charlotte_sp]

Thanks for posting this!
It's nice to see people doing serious research into trans issues.
I guess it's worth pointing out that the article was published in 2000 though XD

This was the take-away for me:

"In short, our findings seem to support the hypothesis that the [neuronal differences] are not the result of changes of sex hormone levels in adulthood. Instead, the neuronal differences are likely to have been established earlier during development [...]"

Very compelling! While I know that some of us are uncomfortable with the concept of calling it a disorder, studies like these can only help with respect to health insurance coverage and visibility in the medical community. Though I guess being trans might qualify as a preexisting condition D:

[Phyliss]

Thanks for posting this!
It's nice to see people doing serious research into trans issues.
This was the take-away for me:
"In short, our findings seem to support the hypothesis..
Very compelling!... studies like these can only help with respect to health insurance coverage.... Though I guess being trans might qualify as a preexisting condition D:

Now you've gone and done it. By saying the "preexisting" word you've given Insurance companies an "out" to not have to pay anything

[Melissa A.]

I read about this research a couple of years ago, and it's true. It comes as no surprise to me, but was awfully confirming and positive to hear.
Pre-existing conditions are no longer a legitimate reason to refuse health insurance or health related services. That certainly doesn't mean bottom surgery will be covered for everyone who needs it in the U.S. tomorrow, but it doesn't hurt, either.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[7sisters]

wow. thank you for this.

[Stephenie S]

OMG, my brain hurts!

[sandra-leigh]

There is a related study within the last couple of years that used MRI-like techniques and determined that not just the number of neurons but also the volume (and hence the density) was important. Going by memory, some MTF were found to have a volume of the region that was comparable to other males, but the number of neurons was found to be lower, and some FTM were found to have the lower volume of the region but with a higher neuron density characteristic of males.

It would probably take me some time to find the study again.

[AmandaM]

Science increasingly points to MTF's having a female brain and FTM's having male brains. And their brains are also differentiated from homosexual brains.

Here is what I've always suspected, and I'd bet science will prove it one day. Eventhough the sexual practices of some TS's and gays may be the same, it appears the motivations may be different, i.e. an MTF TS who has sex with men does so because he's really a she.

I really don't care if TS's are "gay" but I don't think they are. If they have a female identity/brain, logic dictates their sexual desire should be the desire of a female, whether they choose male or female partners. The root is a female sexual identity. I'd bet on it.

[Steph.TS]

while this is good news in that it adds some legitimacy to TS, it causes me to have more doubts, people have said before that gender and sexuality are serperate, but the vast majority are straight, I consider myself to be straight. If I'm a TS woman, why am I attracted to women and not men? I'm worried that if I transition and I made a mistake, I won't know what to do...

I will say if I'm not a TS woman, I'll be disappointed that I have to live the rest of my life as a man...

[charlotte_sp]

while this is good news in that it adds some legitimacy to TS, it causes me to have more doubts, people have said before that gender and sexuality are serperate, but the vast majority are straight, I consider myself to be straight. If I'm a TS woman, why am I attracted to women and not men? I'm worried that if I transition and I made a mistake, I won't know what to do...

I will say if I'm not a TS woman, I'll be disappointed that I have to live the rest of my life as a man...

Jen, please don't think that there are any set criteria for being trans.
Keep in mind that this study had 6 or 7 MTF trans people!
It is suggestive, but it is by no means definitive!

If you honestly want to be a woman and are making an informed decision, that is the end of the story, regardless of neuron density, sexual orientation, and what-have-you.

[Veronica_Jean]

Damned sample size!!

Well what do you expect from a bunch of scientific over-achievers??

Veronica

[Melody Moore]

while this is good news in that it adds some legitimacy to TS, it causes me to have more doubts, people have said before that gender and sexuality are serperate, but the vast majority are straight, I consider myself to be straight. If I'm a TS woman, why am I attracted to women and not men? I'm worried that if I transition and I made a mistake, I won't know what to do...

I will say if I'm not a TS woman, I'll be disappointed that I have to live the rest of my life as a man...

I still am orientated towards females but that doesnt mean Im not transsexual - Ive been transsexual all my life even though I repressed it for most of it (16-47). And I think the reason is more psychological and related to the fact I was abused by males throughout my childhood - another reason I never like to identify as a male. Men seem to be more focused on sex, whereas women aren't and are more into romance & tenderness And this is all the more reason I rather be with females. So I think psychological factors do play a big part in our our sexual orientation as well - but sexual orientation has nothing to do at all with your real gender identity.

I think this is an interesting discovery and it they do more testing on other TS females it might soon be a way of benchmarking who is really transsexual and who isnt. I think this will be a great tool if it does prove to be accurate in determining the true gender identity of children who identify as a member of the opposite physical sex. If only they had these types of tests when I was a child or young adult because it would have saved me lots of pain & suffering in what I went through and helped me to make a clearer and more conscience decision about which sex I really wanted to be.

[Asako]

I heard an interest in possible "benchmarks" for deciding whether or not someone is a TS...if that benchmark consists of something similar to pieces of the Standards of Care in terms of laughability(the Real Life Test), we could find ourselves set back even further. On the flip-side, it could also be exactly what's needed for people to get what they want taken care of. Imagine the look on the face of that gate-keeping therapist when the "test" comes back and proves what you've been telling him all along when they thought you were just a delusional fool. ^.^

[Melody Moore]

Imagine the look on the face of that gate-keeping therapist when the "test" comes back and proves what you've been telling him all along when they thought you were just a delusional fool. ^.^That is also part of the reason why I said that it could be a good 'bencharking' tool to help clear up any confusion with anyone who is confused or sceptical - but like I also just said that they need to do more a lot more testing on both successful & unsuccessful transitions before it ever becomes an acceptable 'benchmarking tool' to implemented by medical practioners.

[Empress Lainie]

My thanks also for re posting this information. I haven't seen the data shown before, but heard of the results.

[Rianna Humble]

while this is good news in that it adds some legitimacy to TS, it causes me to have more doubts, people have said before that gender and sexuality are serperate, but the vast majority are straight, I consider myself to be straight. If I'm a TS woman, why am I attracted to women and not men? I'm worried that if I transition and I made a mistake, I won't know what to do...

I will say if I'm not a TS woman, I'll be disappointed that I have to live the rest of my life as a man...

Jen, The "vast majority" are "straight" (whatever that means) because there are about the same proportion of hetero Ts's as hetero cisgenders.

When I was pretending to be a man, I was considered "straight" or "hetero" because I prefer women (even though I coudl never envisage myself in the male sexual role).

I still prefer women, but now I suppose I'm classed as lesbian - I haven't changed, so society's perception of me must have.

Does that make me less TS? Not AFAICT.

Does the fact that there are more hetero TS than not mean you are not TS? Why should it?

You are who you are whatever the statistics say.

Amd don't forget the old adage: "There are Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics and Politicians" - trust me, I'm a politician :eek:

[AmandaM]

I've decided. I'm not straight. I'm a lesbian, cause I'm transgendered but married to a woman. If I get a sex change and switch to men, then I'll be straight. LOL.

[Steph.TS]

a confusing topic, I know changing your gender is a HUGE change, but it seems that if my preference for Women stays the same after such a transition, without altering my sexuality, it will have been determined to have changed because of the gender change...

it bring up the question of would it be me being a lesbian or would it be the sexual preference that was developed while being a man? if it's the latter is it really homosexuality or just the brain not adapting to the gender change in that area...

[Melody Moore]

a confusing topic, I know changing your gender is a HUGE change, but it seems that if my preference for Women stays the same after such a transition, without altering my sexuality, it will have been determined to have changed because of the gender change...

it bring up the question of would it be me being a lesbian or would it be the sexual preference that was developed while being a man? if it's the latter is it really homosexuality or just the brain not adapting to the gender change in that area...
I have never really liked men and find that I have lots of issues trusting them for a number of reasons, largely because males have abused me both sexually & with physical violence, and because most of them dont really respect females & love them properly. This is also because I grew up with my father abusing my mother with domestic violence.

I cannot honestly say that I have never identified as male. So all my life & long before I decided to transition I have felt like a lesbian trapped in a male body when it come to relationships with other women. So this means that physiologically I have been in heterosexual relationships, but psychologically I have been in homosexual relationships - so my true gender/sexual orientation means that I'm gay or lesbian - I have no issues with my homosexuality and am very proud of my real sexual orientation.