came out to my mom

[Steph.TS]

I felt she would be the easiest person to come out to, I eased into it and she was ok with the fact I wanted to be a woman, where she had a problem is, she doesn't want me to have any surgeries or anything, it's a rejection of my gender and she referred to scripture where it spoke of effeminate men not inheriting the kingdom of heaven.

I'm glad she was accepting though both she and I both agree my dad and sister should never be told about this... now I have a problem she wants me to accept who I am and just be happy with it, even though I spoke for 10 minutes explaining why being a woman would be so much better for me. I just don't know if I can truly come to terms with me as a man. I can live as a man for the rest of my life, but I don't think I'll truly be happy that way. can some one show me a website that goes back to the original language where the bible spoke about the effeminate men part? if I can show that it doesn't apply as she thinks it does, then I think she'll be ok with it, and so will I!

Thing is once I started thinking about transitioning, I started improving my lifestyle, I started taking vitamins, and generally taking better care of myself, I started saving (something that is almost unheard of for me) if I give up hope of transitioning, I'll probably go back to my old way of doing things, just living life.

[Faith_G]

She's probably referring to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. I'll use the King James Version since it is the favorite blunt instrument of those who like to abuse other people with scripture.


9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

A couple points I'd like to make:
1. She is taking it out of context. That's not the end of the passage. There's a very important part coming up.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. What Paul is saying is is "Bad people can't be part of God's kingdom, and some of y'all are pretty bad. But that's not important now, you are justified - that means counted as 'good people' - through your belief in Jesus."

2. The word translated "effeminate" is translated as "wearing fancy clothes" in the other places where it appears. It's more about an ostentatious show of wealth than it is about gender variance.

I prefer the way The Message is translated.

9-11Don't you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who don't care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex, use and abuse the earth and everything in it, don't qualify as citizens in God's kingdom. A number of you know from experience what I'm talking about, for not so long ago you were on that list. Since then, you've been cleaned up and given a fresh start by Jesus, our Master, our Messiah, and by our God present in us, the Spirit.

It took me a long time to understand that people had been telling me lies about God and that God didn't create me to hate me.

A book I recommend is Transgendered by Justin Tanis.

[Pythos]

A little known fact of Corinthians.

It was never meant for anyone other than THE CORINTHIANS. In fact it was a personal letter from Paul to someone Paul was communicating with. Yes your Mother is taking this passage entirely out of context, according to some big biblical scholars.

Paul, like Lyndon Johnson has been maligned by history, only later in time does the truth really start getting revealed. Fortunately for LBJ it was the release of some tapes only decades after his demise that the truth is revealed. Not so for Paul.

[Steph.TS]

i looked up the original word for effeminate malakos, and showed her what the concordance said, she said she never heard that definition of it before and that effeminate was effeminate, she's afraid that if I do this, then I may not be in heaven when I die, she's afraid that I would be beyond salvation.

She wants me to talk to my pastor about this so that he can show me that this is a sin, and once I see it's a sin I should fight these desires. I know I am biased as I want to be a woman, but I'm afraid he too could be biased coming at me with an agenda. I need to see what the scripture says what's in God's will and follow through with that.

My mom while she's more calm on this topic, she is definately opposed to it pointing out that it would damage or destroy my relationship with my dad, my sister would be opposed to me as well... and she mentioned so many other topics that I too have thought about MANY times since I've been thinking long and hard on this topic. I don't know what to do, I don't want to transition if it means damnation, and I don't want to destroy my relationship with my dad/sister, but I also think I'd be a better woman than a man, maybe I'm wrong... I'm so confused right now...

[Asako]

Jen, it warms my heart to see you making progress. =) You may feel confused now but I'd like you to read a few things.

https://drjenspage.com/Article_Index.html

The writer of the articles on that page were written by an evangelist christian who transitioned, has dealt with faith issues, and covered some of those issues in her articles. While my faith is wholly in God alone, it's not that simple for many others. So, sit down and read a few of the articles? It just might help you find a way to help your mother AND the pastor she wants you to speak with to understand that what you're doing is right FOR YOU physically, mentally, and (most importantly) spiritually.

[Hope]

i looked up the original word for effeminate malakos, and showed her what the concordance said, she said she never heard that definition of it before and that effeminate was effeminate, she's afraid that if I do this, then I may not be in heaven when I die, she's afraid that I would be beyond salvation.

So. Many. Issues.

I got into a few serious tangles about this passage in seminary. I still get into them now but somehow have far less patience. If we want to talk about Malikos... fine... It is a masculine plural noun, referring to masculine plural things. It is often equated with the concepts of softness, or tenderness, yielding, faintheartedness. It is often used to refer not to some one who is effeminate, as much as someone who gives in to the things that entice him. Personally, I have never worried about the translation as "effeminate." I mean, there is a lot of argument about it, and frankly coming to ANY firm translation is going to be a best guess. There are those who want to translate the word as something more akin to "fag" or "pansy" or something that is obviously derogatory... that honestly seems to be the best translation when you read the greek. The translation is not entirely clear, particularly with the word "apsenokoitai" in close proximity, (which appears no where else in the scripture - so how on earth do we know what Paul meant by it when we have NO other point of reference?) but is often translated as homosexual.

The text here is not clear.

But lets assume the worst possible scenario for a moment, lets assume that Paul means to say that no MTF transexual girl will ever go to heaven, ever. First, that is contrary to the gospel message, which, of course, is that Christ died for ALL sins, even the ones Paul and Ted Haggard think are eweie, so we reject that theology OUT OF HAND.

But lets imagine for a moment that Jesus gave Paul a big take-backsies card, and let Paul exclude people from the gospel of Jesus the Christ. He didn't, but lets imagine, for the sake of argument in the worst possible case scenario, that he did. All we have to do, to realize that Paul did not mean that those awful creepy trannies are all going to hell, is to read the rest of the paragraph that Paul wrote. In the very next verse Paul writes "And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." ... "you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." Done and DONE. Paul CLEARLY - independent of translation issues, even in the worst case scenario, means to say that every one, no matter how awful you are, even you fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers - EVEN the creepy fags, and pansies and homos and trannys - EVERYONE, who has been "washed, sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" will enjoy eternal life with Christ, BECAUSE of Christ. We may not be worthy of "inheriting" heaven, but no one is. That is why Christ came.

Paul isn't writing to the Corinthians telling them "Hey, all of those of you who are fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers should get out of the church because you are all going to hell!" No... he left that for Ted Haggard to say. No! Paul is saying, "hey, even those of you who have been horrible people, Christ loves you too, EVEN the worst of you, Christ died for you too, you have been washed and justified and sanctified just like the rest of us - Welcome." Because that is the gospel. I realize that is not what you hear in churches in America very often, but that is the gospel. Anything less is a perversion of the gospel into something horrible and twisted - which is, I guess, why I have lost patience with it.

If your mother tells you that you or any one else is "beyond salvation," after you get done punching her right in the teeth (or not, your choice) you tell her that you will not tolerate anyone who says that Christ is so pathetic that he cannot redeem any one he chooses. You tell her that if she honestly believes in a God who can't redeem whoever he wants, or a God who fails to uphold his promises, that she believes in a pathetic god that is not worthy of her worship. You tell her that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was sufficient for all people.

Because what she is really saying when she says that you are "beyond redemption" is that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient, that it wasn't enough, and that Christ is a wimp. I have absolutely 0 patience for that theology too. It is NOTHING but hurtful and destructive and has NOTHING to do with Christianity.

I am really not clear on what Paul is talking about in that passage, but it is obvious, that he is NOT telling the members of the church in Corinth that they are going to hell. And Christ is certainly not telling you that you are going to hell either.

You want to know what Christ hates? You want to know what you won't find in heaven? Look to the scripture and see what Christ fights against. It's not people. Christ hates absent minded adherence to rules. Christ hates poverty. Christ hates illness and disability. Christ hates homelessness. Christ hates fear. Christ hates sadness. You want to make Christ happy? Work to end those things, do it in a dress if you want, but for the love of all things holy and good, don't spend your life sad and fearful of Christ because you were born with an illness that some idiot thinks is contrary to some arbitrary set of rules.

But honestly, you should just drop this issue with your mother. You are not going to change her mind with any sort of argument. This isn't an logical issue for her, it is an emotional issue. She is like a drunk at a lamp-post. She isn't looking to the scripture or the Christian faith for illumination, she is looking for support of her position. She feels like this is creepy, and she doesn't want to deal with it, and she just wants it to go away, so she is turning to the scripture to pull out any thing she can to use as a blunt tool to bludgeon you with to make this go away. You have to be comfortable with yourself, and comfortable living with your mother's condemnation of you - and you have to know that your mother's condemnation is not Christ's condemnation.

Your mother may come around at some later time, but it will not be because of any logical argument you make - because this is not a logical issue for her. You will do both of you a favor, by just dropping it with her. You are out, that is good. She knows, that is good. But don't push her beyond her very narrow comfort zone. She has to decide to confront her fear and expand her world.

[Faith_G]

Thanks, Hope. I was praying you'd post in here. :)

Jen, what Hope said about just dropping the argument with your mom is good advice. I learned first-hand that nothing I say can convince some of my family members that I'm not damned to eternal fire. :rolleyes: But I am certain that God will receive me into God's arms.

I want to touch a little on the subject of "God's will." God often calls us to do things that are scary or stretch us in ways we don't want to be stretched. God does not promise that there will be no pain in our lives, that we will never feel fear or doubt when we follow God's will. But God never calls us to do things that will crush our spirit. Even if the things God calls us to do are hard, they are fulfilling. They do not leave us feeling dead and empty inside.

Jen, at the end of your post you talked about having hope for the future and beginning to take care of yourself better - that is God working in you as you begin to live as God created you to be. I had much the same experience once I began to transition. It's been scary and hard but immensely fulfilling. I feel alive every second I'm awake. And even in the hard times there is still joy, unexplainable joy - everything just feels "right". That's how I feel when I'm following what I believe to be God's will. I didn't have that back when I was following what my family and my childhood church said was God's will for my life. Back then I felt hopeless, that there was no point to life, and I had constant overwhelming anxiety for no apparent reason. Looking back now it is easy for me to see which way God was calling me to go, but that was a scary turn to take.

[Stephenie S]

Well, I have not the education to add much to this. I have seldom read a more intelligent explanation of that passage. Listen carefully to Hope.

I have two points that I make when talking to closed minded "Christians".

1.) God made you. God does not make mistakes.

2.) Christianity means teachings and words of Jesus Christ. Not the words of your mother. Not the words of your pastor. The words of Jesus Christ. Read them yourself.

Then read this, the words of Hope:

You want to know what Christ hates? You want to know what you won't find in heaven? Look to the scripture and see what Christ fights against. It's not people. Christ hates absent minded adherence to rules. Christ hates poverty. Christ hates illness and disability. Christ hates homelessness. Christ hates fear. Christ hates sadness. You want to make Christ happy? Work to end those things, do it in a dress if you want, but for the love of all things holy and good, don't spend your life sad and fearful of Christ because you were born with an illness that some idiot thinks is contrary to some arbitrary set of rules.

I think Hope is right. Leave this argument with your mother. She may never understand. But, you know, she doesn't have to understand. All she needs to do is accept. And she is well on her way to that already.

And, for goodness sake, DON'T go to your pastor.

Stephie

[Traci Elizabeth]

I have a question for both Faith & Hope in trying to understand what each of you are saying. Does this mean that "if" I change from being trans to NOT, then I will be accepted?

OR does it mean that even being Trans as long as I believe in Christ, I am saved?

It makes me wonder because both of you implied that a sinner no matter how bad they were, they can repent their sins, change their ways and receive Christ, and therein would be forgiven.

But me being a woman is not a sin in my eyes and I believe that Christ does accept me for who I am and that I do not have to give up living as a woman to be accepted by Christ.

So please enlighten me - Does God/Christ accept us being Trans-women or do we have to change our gender to be accepted? (if you would prefer to send me a private message that is fine but I am OK with you answering here).

Thanks Gals!

[Faith_G]

Traci, I can tell you've been beaten up by religious people for so long that you have internalized their condemnation and that has colored your perception of what you just read. Neither Hope nor I said anything about "giving up" or "repenting" from being trans. That's like "giving up" being black or "repenting" of being white.

The truth is this: Jesus loves you. There is no "but" or "if" or "provided that" in that statement. Jesus loves you.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Faith, thank you. You are right about me. That is why I have been searching for a new chruch that is Trans friendly here. I have found two but have yet to go to either one even though I really want to. I know I will soon as I really need loving and accepting fellowship.

[GaleWarning]

Let's see exactly what Christ Himself said.
(Paul is not Jesus, so we have to take what he says with a pinch of salt.)

For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that EVERYONE who believes in him may not die, but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to be it's judge, but to be it's saviour. (John 3: 16,17 - Good News Bible) (my emphasis!)

Christians agree that these verses provide the best summary of Christ's purpose for being on this earth.
Salvation is available to all of us. All we need to do to claim it, is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and have a little faith.
How mich faith? Jesus compared the amount of faith needed to a mustard seed, which is tiny indeed.

[Steph.TS]

well she brought it up again, again disapprovingly, I tried to alieve some fears she has she has a really good point, how can I transition, my dad is is so conservative, and so easily offended on topics like this, he might want nothing to do with me.

it seems to me that before I find a therapist to help me with this stuff, I need to sturdy myself by making sure that I believe that this is ok from a religious persective, hard to do as I take so much of my religious influence from my parents. secondly I need to find out if I can endure the possibility that my dad may shun me forthe rest of my life, how can a guy that is so conservative and well a strict believer in traditional families, see his son that looks just like him become his daughter? My mom and I see that he was be disgusted with it, and I honestly don't know what his reaction would be. my sister is a bit of a snobby holier than thou person, she'd also believes it is a sin, but would just hold it over my head that I'd be going to hell I think...

I think if I do this I have to move out on my own, and save ALOT of money/win lottery and try to try to compress everything into a 2 year period, and reenter the work force as a woman... but I have alot of thinking to do, and my mom still wants me to see my pastor (doesn't like the idea of a therapist as they'd only encourage this)

[Faith_G]

Sad to say, but if you are not ready to walk away from your family then you are not ready to transition. You cannot let fear of their reaction control your life if you want to be happy.

[Ze]

Sad to say, but if you are not ready to walk away from your family then you are not ready to transition. You cannot let fear of their reaction control your life if you want to be happy.

This is a hard fact to swallow, yet very, very true.

[Fab Karen]

No doubt your pastor is her pastor, pretty obvious she wants you to fall in line with her beliefs. Doesn't like the idea of a therapist- that's a red flag, it's all about controlling you.
You want to see that it's "ok from a religious perspective" - which religion? And more importantly, which source of info for that religion? Research the origins & the history of the religion, who says what is and isn't correct? Who made them the authority? Maybe realize, god made YOU the authority of what is right or wrong for you.

[Steph.TS]

No doubt your pastor is her pastor, pretty obvious she wants you to fall in line with her beliefs. Doesn't like the idea of a therapist- that's a red flag, it's all about controlling you.
You want to see that it's "ok from a religious perspective" - which religion? And more importantly, which source of info for that religion? Research the origins & the history of the religion, who says what is and isn't correct? Who made them the authority? Maybe realize, god made YOU the authority of what is right or wrong for you.

I don't think she is malicious with her intent, she's just afraid, she is just as firm believer as I am and she doesn't want to see me end up in hell. I'm a Christian, nondenominational, I have been wrong in that I've relied on my parents as my source for theological doctrine for pretty much my whole life, when the Bible is quite clear that our doctrine should come from the Bible, while my parent do take their doctrine from the Bible, they are also flawed human beings, just like everyone else, I have to get used to reading the scripture myself and building my own doctrine from there...

as for authority, I believe God is the authority, I find myself in prayer over this issue. trying to make sure I do what is right. you are right in that it definitely feels like a control issue as I feel trapped, as much as I want to be a woman, live life as a woman, I don't want to offend my parents, or cut myself off from them. If I did that I'd be alone in the world, I honeslty don't know if I could do that... :(

[Fab Karen]

You'd probably get a lot out of therapy, discussing your issues with your parents. Sounds like you've relied on them for information your whole life, that's your big issue, learning to be independent & find out for yourself what you find to be true/untrue. And you wouldn't be alone if they decided to cut ties with you- there are friends, and you could find a romantic partner if you want.
As for hell, what causes someone to be sent to such a place? Who says? Research how many times the bible has been re-written through history, and by who.

[Faith_G]

You're not ready yet. You have to grow up to be a woman. I wrote a piece about that as a facebook note recently, it's public and you can probably find me on there without much trouble.

On examining scripture:

When I had recovered enough from my toxic Independent Fundamentalist Baptist childhood to give Jesus a try, I looked at scripture in a new way. As a Christian, which means a follower of Jesus, I want to base my life on the principles He taught through His words and His actions. So when I read scripture, I try to square what the text says with my understanding of what Jesus taught. If something I read does not ring true to the character of Jesus, I ignore it. The scriptures were all written by men, and men decided what writings were going to be accepted as scripture. Call me a heretic, but a lot of what is in the Bible is not the word of God.

Also, remember that the Old Testament holiness code (AKA the Law) is made obsolete by Jesus. So none of that crap in Leviticus and Deuteronomy applies to Christians. That leaves us with the apostle Paul. Paul was a great guy and did a lot to spread the gospel, but he wasn't Jesus. Paul was human, and he said a lot of things that were more in line with his cultural background than they were with the teachings of Jesus. So get to know Jesus, who He was, how He thought, what He liked and didn't like. Test what you read in the epistles against the personality of Jesus. It's probably going to lead you to a different sort of faith than you were raised with, one that requires you to think and feel, so you can apply principles instead of blindly following a set of rules.

[Stephenie S]

What she said.

[Hope]

I have a question for both Faith & Hope in trying to understand what each of you are saying. Does this mean that "if" I change from being trans to NOT, then I will be accepted?

OR does it mean that even being Trans as long as I believe in Christ, I am saved?

It makes me wonder because both of you implied that a sinner no matter how bad they were, they can repent their sins, change their ways and receive Christ, and therein would be forgiven.

I am not completely sure what you are asking, but let me get to the heart of this whole salvation / if / as long as / business.

I mean that without hesitation, and without reservation, no matter how big a jerk you intend to be, no matter how intentionally evil you are, no mater what a low down lying sack of puss you turn out to be, that you are already saved, and there is not one bloody thing you can do about it.

It works like this: Your salvation was accomplished by Christ. Christ, being God, does not need your help. Christ does not require you to do anything to co-operate. Christ did it. It depends on Christ, not on you. And here is the really cool part - this isn't something you have to "wait and see" about. It is something that has already happened, some 2000 years ago, it is past tense, it is finished. Can't go back, can't get back, can't undo it. It HAS happened. Your ticket to heaven is punched, and that cannot be changed by anything you or anyone else does. There is no "if" there is no "as long as" it is a done deal.

That is not to say that Christ is ambivalent about how you live your life, it only means that the issue of salvation is off the table.

I would place a pretty healthy bet that when you stop thinking about God in terms of crime and punishment, that your life in general will start to look a lot brighter.


Sad to say, but if you are not ready to walk away from your family then you are not ready to transition. You cannot let fear of their reaction control your life if you want to be happy.

Yup. I will go one better - If you are not ready to walk away from your family, you are not really ready to live your life, transition or otherwise. Sure, a good family wouldn't ever put you in the position of having to choose to live your life or continue to be in contact with them, but a good family wouldn't make you choose between them and transition either.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Hope, I wish everyone believed as you. Most churches around here view LGBT folks as on a direct path to hell. I don't believe that but I am in the minority here in the South (the so-called Bile Belt)

[Philipa Jane]

Hi Jen and all the other knowledgeable people.

I have read all the replies with great interest.
I was born and raised as a Roman Catholic and although my reading of the Bible is nowhere near as extensive as some.
IMHO Jesus loves everybody unconditionally and it is their spirit that will reside in Heaven and NOT their earthly body.

Even the worst sinner will be welcomed if they repent their sins.(Not saying that you are a sinner)
No person is beyond redemption in the Lords eyes.

That said perhaps your mother is more concerned with the disruption to the family and how others of your community who know you will react to this revelation.
Happiness for us all should take the form of being true to ourselves.

Sorry if this sounds like preaching. Only my opinion.
PJ

[morgan51]

I try to live my life as God would want me to. I really detest judgmental people with narrow minds. Thankyou Hope and Faith for your message. Everyone notice the names? Concidence? I think Not! Thankyou ladies.

[Byanca]

I always believe education and knowledge is the way to go. God belief is a comfort of course. But with mothers they tend to think they know what is best for their children. And as we know, that's not always the case. Religion will be more the tool for this justification, amongst lots of other things. I also don't think they intentionally mean to do harm, they are just misguided.

In a way it appears to me that your family have gotten lost in the dark. So it's up to you to show them the light. Light the beacon so they can come out of the darkness if they want too. If not, just let them be.

Sooner or later they hopefully would like some sunshine into their lives. And that's you dear, when you have blossomed. It's not easy to see on an unopened flower how beautiful this can turn out to be.

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

I look at things a little different. People use the Bible to condemn others, they have used the Bible thru out history to judge others, to condemn others. I do not know if being transsexual is a sin or not. But I know one thing being transsexual is no different than suffering from a birth defect. Remember God created man Adam & Eve as perfect creations. Unfortunately when they chose to Sin, sin entered into the world, since then we have had birth defects, disease and other genetic problems. Medical science has treatments and in some cases cures for these issues. I look at being Transsexual as having suffered a cruel genetic mix-up at birth due to the effects of sin on my mother and father. Did I choose to be Transsexual, to sin , "No", but I'm still a Transsexual. Can God use me and do great things in my life, "Yes". Will I go to Hell, "No". Why? because I choose to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord.

What I'm saying is believe in the love and free gift from God. He's the one who accepts us and decides who goes to heaven, not the denominations, not your fellow man and above all not your mother. Love God with all your heart, he accepts all who come to him. Whether your Trans, Gay, straight, suffering from birth defects or disease. He accepts all who believes in him. Kimberly Marie Kelly

[Maryanne_sa]

HI Jen,

If your father shuns you for the rest of your life, what does that say about his Christianity? Jesus did not shun beggars, thieves and prostitutes. He asked them to repent of their sins. In your case, there is no sin, and don't let any one, or any family member tell you different. God made all of us in his own image it is said. I once heard a sermon where the minisiter said that God is both male & female.

I pray that you can get your family to come to terms and accept you without condemnation for who you are. I am a great deal older than you, and my greatest regret is holding myself back, due to fears and concerns of family and friends condemnation. So many missed years, so much unhappiness. Do whatever you can to get your familiy to acceptance, as you obviously love them, and they love you. But, in the end, if this does not work, you need to move on with your life. The last sentence of your post (quoted below) says it all. I personally now, am living full time, transitioning, and have never been happier in my life. even though in the process, I have seperated from my wife of many years. I don't know if you have had counselling, but I would really recommend it, and dont see someone from the church, as you know where that will go.

Take care

Maryanne

"Thing is once I started thinking about transitioning, I started improving my lifestyle, I started taking vitamins, and generally taking better care of myself, I started saving (something that is almost unheard of for me) if I give up hope of transitioning, I'll probably go back to my old way of doing things, just living life.

[Alyla]

Jen

Faith and Hope are here. I am waiting for your mother to meet Charity, she will be coming along soon.

Jesus invited us all to the communion.

Why Christianity must Change or Die, by John shelby Spong, a good read on the subject.

One last thought, do one chose an eye for an eye, or turn the other cheek, the action one choses determines the path of whose foot steps you wish to walk in. I feel it is the action not the words that makes a spiritual person. Go forth, many walk with you. So I ramble once more.

Love to you,
Alyla

[Steph.TS]

I'm trying to give my mom time to cool off and hopefully come to terms with this side of me, when I do talk to her about this, I try finding scripture that at least to me appears to say it's not necessarily a bad thing, all I seem to get is fear, either about how this could divide me from God and salvation could be lost or how I'll stand out, suggesting my voice won't ever be feminine, and that I won't be happy... I just feel like I'm trapped as a man, unless I reject my family. I have alot of thinking to do, will I be more unhappy as a woman? would I stand out? could I train my voice to be feminine? alternatively would I be more happy as a man, (less work transitioning, less is expected of me in terms of maintenance, men generally don't wear makeup, and we don't have to diet as often)...

I want to feel good about my body image, not feel like I'm 'not ugly' or 'ok' but I want to be beautiful, wear outfits that make me feel sexy. the more I think about it the more I want to be a woman, but I could just be lost in the pink fog...

[Melody Moore]

If God does not make mistakes then what was God thinking when he created the intersexed & hermaphrodites?

Its misinterpretations of the Bible like this that makes me stay well away from
churches & religion, however I have never forsaken my relationship with God.

[Rianna Humble]

I'm trying to give my mom time to cool off and hopefully come to terms with this side of me, when I do talk to her about this, I try finding scripture that at least to me appears to say it's not necessarily a bad thing, all I seem to get is fear, either about how this could divide me from God and salvation could be lost or how I'll stand out, suggesting my voice won't ever be feminine, and that I won't be happy... I just feel like I'm trapped as a man, unless I reject my family. I have a lot of thinking to do, will I be more unhappy as a woman? would I stand out? could I train my voice to be feminine? alternatively would I be more happy as a man, (less work transitioning, less is expected of me in terms of maintenance, men generally don't wear makeup, and we don't have to diet as often)...

I want to feel good about my body image, not feel like I'm 'not ugly' or 'ok' but I want to be beautiful, wear outfits that make me feel sexy. the more I think about it the more I want to be a woman, but I could just be lost in the pink fog...

I don't know what version of the bible your mum uses that says you can "lose" your salvation - as far as I understand you are supposed to obtain salvation by accepting what god did for you. How does that change when you correct your birth defect?

Will you stand out? At first - yes. Can you train your voice to sound more like the real you? I have to believe it. Would you be more happy as a man? I think we both know the answer to that. Is it "the pink fog"? That is the most important question you have to answer.

Yes, men can get away with less time getting ready every day, they don't have to worry half as much about their appearance or their weight, they get to dress in uninteresting clothes 100% of the time. If you are sure that you can live like that, then this might be pink fog. OTOH, if you know deep down that you are not a man and that you can never be whole as a man, then this probably is not pink fog.

Please take your time, ask yourself the difficult questions and do the sums. If transition is right for you, then please don't let anything stop you. If it isn't then you'll see it.

[KarenCDFL]

As an Atheist I have to ask the folks here who are believers the following:

Why would you have any belief in a system that thinks:

1) You are an abomination
2) You are "wrong" in the eyes of your Deity
3) You are a sinner in the eyes of your Deity

On top of the fact that in a lot of cases, you lose your whole family and many of your friends just because you feel different from the way you were born?

And from what I see, believers are constantly telling others that their way of interpreting the "Book" is the right way. And I also see the trans-gender people doing the same so that they can remain believers even though the "Book" proclaims the negativity of our lifestyle.

I do have to say that I have been an atheist for over 40 years. I became a non believer when I went to religious school as a 10-12 year old and discovered under the so called teachings, it was all about control and the discrimination of others who were not of my religion. My teacher actually had the balls (and she was female) to tell the class that we should only be friends and do business with those of our religion and it was OK to use those of other religions for whatever was needed such as cheap labor.

Can you believe this crap? That was the day I walked out and never returned to that class or any religious beliefs.

I was also cross dressing and masturbating at the time and of course the "Book" says both of these were "wrong" and a sin against all of the universe.

I never read a "Commandment" that said You males out there shall not dress in female clothes or jerk off. Maybe it was in one of those 15 Commandments that Mel Brooks lost.

I just can't see T-People or anyone of intelligence for that matter actually believing in a Deity or organized religion as it stands in society today.

It could also be ignorance on my part for my non belief. I can say the one thing I do believe in is that you can do whatever you want and believe whatever you want as long as you don't attempt to shove it down my throat.

[Faith_G]

This is not the place for an argument about religion. So my answer will have to be "faith."

[Ze]

This is not the place for an argument about religion.

Exactly. Such a discussion will not go any further here. Atheists be respectful of the spiritual, and the spiritual be respectful of Atheists. Done.

[joanieb]

Jen, I'm not sure how old you are or what you have for responcibilities in your life. So it's hard for me to comment specifically. I just want to say, if your still young and don't have children or a wife yet, it's your life. You should not let your loving mothers expectations of you deminish your dreams.

Clearly she loves you, and in her way, wants what is best for you. But the only thing that is best for you (if you are single and still young enough to blend into a society where you won't be handicaped by a gender stereotype) is to be you. Then you should seek your happiness not your mom's. In the end your success will be to your moms delight as most moms only want true happiness for their children. In doing so you will cause hardship on your parents. As for scripture? Mans words, not God's) I am a parent. I don't like the choices my sons have made, but it is their right to make them. I did the best I could while they were under my gardian ship. I knew that one day they would have to be able to make their own decisions in life. I might not like them, but I am proud that they are living thier lives. (children are only loaned to us by the grace of god, and we are constricted to guide and teach them that which we know. But, once that job is done we must set them free to make their own lives). You are a very loving child to care for your mom and her wishes. The way I see you, (with your question). You can honor your parents most by living your life to the fullest you possibly can. Not by living totally to their expectations.

[Margot]

We're all doomed!

[Hope]

I'm trying to give my mom time to cool off and hopefully come to terms with this side of me, when I do talk to her about this, I try finding scripture that at least to me appears to say it's not necessarily a bad thing, all I seem to get is fear, either about how this could divide me from God and salvation could be lost or how I'll stand out,

Again, I have to implore you to not have this conversation, or any related conversations with your mother. This isn't a religious issue for her. Stick to the "cooling off" period, let that go for at least a year... At least a year. More would be splendid.

Again - your salvation is something that has already be accomplished by Christ and cannot be undone or "lost." But I feel as if I beat a dead horse.

If you want to come up with positive images in the scripture - go with these:

Mark 14. Jesus is gathering the disciples and preparing to head into Jerusalem for the celebration of passover, and the events that would become known as Easter. The disciples ask Jesus "Where do you want to go to eat the passover dinner?" Jesus tells them to go into town and find a man carrying water, and to go with him to the place where he lives and talk with the guy who owns the house, who will have the upper room of his house all ready for us.

Why do we care?

2 things:

1) Why point out that the guy the disciples were to meet up with would be carrying water? Is it just a way to identify the contact? Like saying that "find the guy with the red coat." There might be 22 guys with red coats. There would only be one guy carrying water. Carrying water, fetching water from the well and bringing it back home was woman's work. In a society that is strictly segregated by gender, a man carrying water is something that would happen in only the most dire of circumstances - much like a man using a ladies room today might be. Also note that this wasn't a dire circumstance, Jesus knew that this guy would be carrying water, that he would be behaving in a feminine way, because that was a part of what that guy did. This means that this guy who was a distinct (and positive) part in the story of Easter, was transgendered. This was a guy who lived his life in the role of a woman in society. And Jesus knew him. But there is more to it than that. Not only did Jesus know this guy, but he knew him well enough that he ate in his home, that the "last supper" took place in a tranny's house. This in a society where people would refuse to eat with people who they thought were unclean in any way. Jesus didn't think this transgendered person was sinful, or unclean; Jesus didn't rebuke him or cast him out or try to "cure" him. He sat down and ate in his home.

2) This wasn't something awkward or impromptu like the story of Jesus' birth, where Jesus' parents simply had to make do with what was available to him. Jesus knew these people before hand. Jesus had planned to have his last meal on Earth at this house.

But your mom thinks that Jesus doesn't like the trannies? I wonder which Jesus she is referring to.

Acts 8 tells the story of an Ethiopian eunuch who encounters one of the disciples on the road. The story tells that the disciples was sent out on this road, at this time, by an angel, or a messenger of God; it is obvious that this disciples was sent in order to encounter this eunuch. The disciple sits with the eunuch and they talk about the scripture and the disciple tells the eunuch about Jesus and at the end of the story the eunuch is baptized, and the disciple is whisked away immediately afterwords.

Why do we care?

God sends an angel to send a disciple to have a conversation with someone and we have to ask why we care? No one has ever sent an angel to talk to me. Obviously God had an interest in this eunuch, and desired that he have the scripture explained to him, so that he could be baptized. A eunuch... God exerted some effort to make sure this eunuch got baptized. And lets point out that this eunuch was not someone who was particularly influential, he was a bureaucrat in the Ethiopian government of some sort. This eunuch was not even Jewish. This eunuch did not go on to found the church in Ethiopia. This eunuch did not die as a martyr. This eunuch did not go on to baptize anyone that we know of. In fact I don't think we ever hear anything more about this eunuch ever again in all of human history. As far as we know he never mentioned his encounter with the disciple to anyone else. As far as we know he is completely unremarkable and had no reason to warrant God's time, concern or attention.

But it is telling that this is a guy who had been castrated (because that is how you become a eunuch) who had essentially in the ancient mind "become a woman" and God still loved him, and in fact showed an unusual interest in him and provided him with unusual favor. Does your mom think that this eunuch "lost his salvation" too? Horse pucky.

But again, your mother doesn't give one whit to the scripture or the stories in it. She is only looking to the scripture to find verses that will support her position that trannies are creepy, and that you need to knock it off or you will go to hell. Don't get into that battle, don't even get involved with that sort of crazy - it is contagious. And she will get it on you. Don't engage in this fight - you cannot win.

[Steph.TS]

Thanks Hope, I love to see scripture, and I love to see the context around it. I live with my family, the only crossdressing I can do at home is women's clothes that can pass as men's clothes... I wish I could wear the dress I bought last week, outside of my room... it's very hard to stop talkng about this topic entirely with my mom, because the greatest thing I want is her acceptance. but you're right emotional arguments will end up trumping logical rational arguments. I find it hard to believe that my mom 'doesn't give one whit to the scripture or the stories in it' because she and my dad are very passionate about trying to make sure that biblical doctrine is kept, but it's possible that if this is an emotional topic for my mom it could be preventing her from seeing this area clearly.

I wish I had more money or won lottery or something then I could move out and be free to live my life as I wanted...

[Hope]

Because Christ came to free people from bondage - we know that Christ takes the side of the oppressed. Ergo - because Transsexuals are oppressed, Christ sides with them.

[Veronica_Jean]

Jen,

I believe you are taking a great approach to this issue by working through what you believe rather than rely on others to define that for you.



as for authority, I believe God is the authority, I find myself in prayer over this issue. trying to make sure I do what is right. you are right in that it definitely feels like a control issue as I feel trapped, as much as I want to be a woman, live life as a woman, I don't want to offend my parents, or cut myself off from them. If I did that I'd be alone in the world, I honeslty don't know if I could do that... :(

At some point in your life, you will be without your parents. My mother passed over 20 years ago and my father 7. My in-laws and my spouse 5 years ago.
The amazing thing is your body somehow just keeps moving. I'm not saying its easy, and sometimes your would just rather not. In the end, you move along and find you can survive despite the loss.

Take some time and research the origins of the Bible, when and how it was formed, issues over translations, and then consider how for you to apply what is inside. I am no scholar in that regard, but I have taken enough courses to know that most people do not understand enough of the Bible and relying on the pastor/preacher/priest to tell us is not the best way. These people were clearly educated, but all too often teach the "accepted meaning" rather than enlighten their parishioners. I have read a few accounts where individuals have had great debates over the translation of certain words and passages, and why context of the times has to play into it. King James was likely not motivated by authenticity, much like Constantine.

Find your own peace and hope in your faith, and find your true self so you can live your life. Work with them to try and help them understand. Thats the best any of us can do.

Veronica

[jessicaheartt09]

I battled over telling my family and how they would accept me for years and it kept me from transitioning in my early teens. I have regretted that scared kid but now can't be happier since I told everyone. Sure I had some difficulties but you can't live in your prison based on what others think! Do what makes you happy and complete. I wish you the best!