Variants of transgendered women

[linda.wai]

There are so many types and presentations of transgendered women around and all are so different.

CD very part time, only into women
CD frequent, could find men attractive when en femme
TG not yet 24/7, feel identified as female
TG in transition and considering SRS
TG full time but decided against SRS, enjoys her male genitalia
Pre op TS
Post op TS

[7sisters]

I think this is a good thread. Thank you for thinking of it.

[PetiteDuality]

I think it's an interesting exercise, but nor sure how useful could this theoretical taxonomy be...

[BreenaDion]

Where are the Transvestites that you didnt list. Also what about Transsexuals that dont want to Transition, where are they listed. Start a tread wouldnt it include every one ? Where am I listed, I dont count ?

Dazed an Confused Bree.

[Teri Jean]

Oh sweety you have forgotten our

TV - Transvestites= love to dress as women as a sexual release
DQ- Drag Queens= Dress to entertain as women or men

I personally know a drag queen who at 68yrs is a pleasure to be around at anytime. Plus she is a TS who is not only fun but very supportive of our community in Minnesota.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Gee Linda, I NEVER knew that. Thanks for sharing! :lol:

And are you sure you are all-inclusive? You might want to add about 1,001 other combinations to your list.

[Billijo49504]

I know I'm 63 yrs old and have had cataracts, but I still don't need the large print magazines yet. If I tried to figure out what I was from you list, I'd say I'm a TGCD transitioning to a No Op TS, because Social Security doesn't pay enough for me to get SRS and still help my daughter and grandson. Here it's family first. have a great day...Billijo

[Hope]

I thought we had all agreed that operative status had nothing to do with one's status as a TS woman?

And what about the TS woman who lives full time, and desperately wants to have SRS, but can't afford it? (I seriously think there should be some sort of scholarship or charitable foundation set up for these girls)

Or the TS woman who has successfully transitioned but doesn't feel the need for SRS?

Or or or...

[stefan37]

To be transgendered is extremely fluid and ranges from the necessity to transition - to dressing as the opposite sex for halloween once a year. Also as life progresses circumstances may change.

[GaleWarning]

There are so many wonderful people on this site ...
Linda.wai
7sisters
PetiteDuality
Bree
Teri Jean
Traci Elizabeth
Billijo
Hope
Stefan
and thousands of others, including me!

All of us unique. Each of us different.

Yay!!!

[Melody Moore]

Wow, I never knew we could all be so easily pigeon-holed :battingeyelashes::itsok::lol:

[AllieSF]

I think that trying to classify everyone will always end up with discussions and exceptions, and therefore be a useless while maybe fun exercise. Like, what about the infrequent MtF CD who has an interest or fantasy about being with men, or the more frequent dressing MtF CD who is only interested in females? Plus, where are the FtM's?

[tanyalynn51]

Linda, I think this thread is a good idea, because you didnt get all of the possibilities. I think we can all share where we are at and encourage people who dont fit into those categories exactly, so just dont know who or what they are. That was me. As someone who is beginning the process of transitioning, lives at home as a woman but has to work as a man, Im not sure completely what category I fall into myself.

[renee k]

Wow, I never knew we could all be so easily pigeon-holed :battingeyelashes::itsok::lol:

Agreed! That's all I wanted to be is put in a box and labeled.:bonk:

[AKAMichelle]

The biggest problem with all of those definitions is that I am constantly evolving along the list. I have no idea where I will be next week.

[Bree-asaurus]

The biggest problem with all of those definitions is that I am constantly evolving along the list. I have no idea where I will be next week.

The biggest problem with these definitions is they try to categorize every possible deviation. Trying to find what word defines the whole of who you are can cause more grief than is necessary - especially if you are just coming to terms with who you are.

I say screw the definitions! :D

[linda.wai]

The biggest problem with these definitions is they try to categorize every possible deviation. Trying to find what word defines the whole of who you are can cause more grief than is necessary - especially if you are just coming to terms with who you are.

I say screw the definitions! :D

I AGREE with you that definitions is not helpful as they cannot describe the situation of each individual.
However, as crossdressers, non-op and post-op have totally DIFFERENT long term outcome and psychological state, it might be useful to indicate their difference through such pigeon hole approach.

[Jorja]

Sorry Sweetie,,,,, I don't hang out with pigeons! The only label that is necessary is your name other than that we are all different, yet all sisters. The only thing that needs to be put in a box is the lables.

[Billijo49504]

Here's a interesting idea, that I think we can all agree. We are just people that are trying to atleast break even in this game of life. I hope everyone has a great week, or atleast a great day.:love:..Billijo

[docrobbysherry]

That if I CD infrequently I'm into women.:straightface:

But, that if I start dressing more often, I MAY begin thinking about sex with my SISTERS!:eek:

THAT will make Sherry VERY JEALOUS!:Angry3:

So, I'll keep to an, "every other week", schedule for her sake!:brolleyes:

[Melissa A.]

I wasn't going to reply, here...the entire premise of the original post seemed to be an exercise in obvious, with no interesting theme or explanation to go along with it. But it did start a conversation that many of us have had before, and that I have at times found pretty interesting. And I thought your second post was much better and more usable than your original one, Linda. I guess I can understand, on one level, the oft-repeated ambivalence for "labels". It sounds good, anyway, I guess that's why so many repeat it so often. But then I snap out of it. Things like real prejudice and bigotry aside, we use language to describe what we see. It helps a little to say. "that's a cat, and that's a dog". Language is also a somewhat useful tool for describing our own state of being. Like Human being. Or being happy. Or being John Malkovich. I'm, unfortunately, not a born woman, but a transsexual woman. That's a fact that I cannot escape. For my purposes and feelings, it's simply "woman", but that's a whole other conversation... I have no desire to be confused with a drag queen or a transvestite. Drag queens and transvestites can be wonderful, fun people, with as much legitimacy within our created community as I. Heck, some of my closest friends describe themselves as genderqueer and the like! (hooo-did I really just say that?? Sorry!) But I'm not them. Nor do I really have anything in common with gays and lesbians, outside of a seething hatred for injustice, violence and unfairness. Terms can divide, undoubtabley, and maybe they make some feel unfairly "labeled". But words describe. They can divide, and also bring together. "Transgender" is a political term that to me, doesn't really describe anything but a community of gender-variant people, many quite different from the others. Useful because there is more strength in numbers, hence our affiliation with LGB, although sexual orientation has zero in common with identity. There is nothing wrong, to me, in pointing out that many of us are different and have different motivation for what we do. So go ahead and label me, baby. Just make sure you get it right! At least make an attempt, or you may have one pissed off bitch on your hands.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Melody Moore]

They can divide, and also bring together. "Transgender" is a political term that to me, doesn't really describe anything but a community of gender-variant people, many quite different from the others. You are spot on their Melissa and because 'Transgender' is often used so loosely applied has been the reason that many of us have been mislabeled especially in the media, this was a case with a friend of mine a transsexual female who made the news recently... See this article and read the comments in reply to this... http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2010/07/09/117341_local-news.html


It was a guy in DRAG , not a "transgendered person" as written by the Cairns Post.Here we have another story that has been distorted by the Cairns Post to make it sound like something it wasn't. Gutter Journalism again.
Posted by: graham martin of forest gardens 09:58am Saturday 10th JulyThis comment isnt correct either because this female is a transsexual, not just 'transgendered'. See why people get so confused because of labels?
i know the driver and until recently she was a man but has decided 2 go for a sex change operation as she feels that she is a woman, there is a waitin time that you must live as your prefered gender b4 they will consider actually doin the operation... so she is transgender not in drag!
Posted by: 09:03pm Saturday 31st July


Just make sure you get it right! At least make an attempt, or you may have one pissed off bitch on your hands
I share your sentiments Melissa :)

[Ze]

Plus, where are the FtM's?

Didn't you get the memo? We don't count. (Okay, so I kid...kinda...)

From what I've seen, FtMs might be pidgeonholed in odder categories. We range from not existing to being butch lesbians in denial to just a product of third-wave feminism to having been sexually assaulted and hence are compensating for that, etc.

I daresay we're quite happy when we're actually recognized as "men trapped in women's bodies." We're even happier when we're actually respected for that.

And happy to see somebody actually brought this up. :hugs:

[Melissa A.]

[QUOTE=MelodyN;2276948]You are spot on their Melissa and because 'Transgender' is often used so loosely applied has been the reason that many of us have been mislabeled especially in the media, this was a case with a friend of mine a transsexual female who made the news recently... See this article and read the comments in reply to this... http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2010/07/09/117341_local-news.html[/QUOT

I don't have a huge problem with the use of the word "transgender" in journalism, per se. If the writer practices due dilligence, makes an attempt to find out something about the person in question, and uses the right pronouns, all is good, to me. Of course, describing someone as transgender in a news story should be dependant on their transness having some relevance, such as a story about an assault. So I have a problem, in this case, with the headline, and the theme of the story. I would think this being a deliberate act, a complete accident, or the result of drunk driving would be relevant. Her being trans doesn't seem to be, at all. The writer was careful to avoid pronouns, and quoted a person who used the word "she". Now, here's where it gets a little tricky-to completely ignore the fact that a person is trans could lead to a problem...I don't know if your friend has legally changed her name or her gender marker, but if she hasn't, and this writer had actually done her job and reported her name(why didn't she?????), one could say she would be justified in reporting her given male name. So reporting that the person was transgender, in that particular case, should have been an aside, such as, "xxxxxxx goes by the name xxxxxx, and she is currently undergoing(or has undergone) male-to-female transiton". If she's changed her identity completely and legally, it should have just been ignored. But her being trans as the focus of the story is simply attention-grabbing. Should transsexuals be described narrowly as transsexuals, when relevant, and nothing more? Sure, of course. But maybe a bit much to expect from people totally unfamiliar with the whole issue.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[LilSissyStevie]

One group you almost never hear of on these boards is the group that doesn't crossdresses at all because they feel no hope of looking like the opposite sex or even the desire. Feeling it suffices.

[GaleWarning]

Ze, you had not posted on this thread when I gave my first reply.
But you ARE one of the thousands on this site, and so were included in that sentence.

[Jorja]

Ze???? Who is Ze? :D

[Empress Lainie]

Ze is a very hot guy that once was a woman.

[Ze]

Everybody stop turning a thread about transgender women into Ze Country! :wn: Go back on topic!

Sidenote: Empress, that sounds like the first line of a limerick. :heehee:

[Melissa A.]

There once was a guy named Ze
Who always was a he....

Sorry. I'll stop.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Jorja]

Oh, I know ZE but I thought his name was Studly Doitright. At least that is what all the girls in the neighborhood are calling him. :D

Sorry sir, back to topic, sir

[Melody Moore]

There once was a guy named Ze
Who always was a he....

Who is it again?

Whose Ze? or Whose he?

Trust Ze to come along & derail this thread :P

[PretzelGirl]

There once was a guy named Ze
Who always was a he....


He has moved awful close to Nantucket. :whistling:

[Jeanna]

this post is rude

[hopingsecret]

Hey Ze, I think FTM's are so rarely brought up has more to do with gender politics than anything else. Since we live in a culture that values the male over the female; woman who dress or act or want to be men are seen as wanting to better themselves. For a male to dress, act, or want to be female is seen as a step backward at best, a debasement at worst and thus illicts more and stronger responses. A female with short hair in t-shirt and jeans goes un noticed. A male in skirt, heels with long hair, well you're gonna get remarks. That and just by numbers there are far more MTFs than FTMS.

Personally I love all my trans brothers and sisters.

[Melissa A.]

Many male transsexuals may have a bit of an easier time assimilating in public, But if you talk to them, you'll find that they experience pretty much the same hurdles when it comes to families, friends, employment and everything else. You're right about the culture paying less attention, and why. As far as numbers, I think they are fairly equal. If not, I don't think there is as wide a difference as you think.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Faith_G]

A female with short hair in t-shirt and jeans goes un noticed.Yes, until that person expects to be treated like a man. Then it's the same story as an MTF TS, only the gender changes. Not taken seriously, belittled, and flat out not respected as a person. Sometimes even killed. Our FTM brothers do not have it any easier, most of them just suck it up and take it like the men they are. :shades:

[Ze]

I don't know what the hell people are talking about. I can't wait for the day when apparently I pass and don't get shit thrown at me.

[Areyan]

Didn't you get the memo? We don't count. (Okay, so I kid...kinda...)

From what I've seen, FtMs might be pidgeonholed in odder categories. We range from not existing to being butch lesbians in denial to just a product of third-wave feminism to having been sexually assaulted and hence are compensating for that, etc.

I daresay we're quite happy when we're actually recognized as "men trapped in women's bodies." We're even happier when we're actually respected for that.

And happy to see somebody actually brought this up. :hugs:

:yt:

the line "just-a-girl" grates on us exactly the same way "man-in-a-dress" does for mtf transsexuals.

there are so many variants where gender/sexuality are concerned that nothing can be determined in a list as simple as this one and i'm sure this is why it has provoked such a large response... although my gender identity is becoming more solid, my orientation hasn't become clear completely. where is the category for that? heh.

[Rianna Humble]

Plus, where are the FtM's?

Didn't you get the memo? We don't count. (Okay, so I kid...kinda...)

Actually, I'm not sure that I agree with either you or Allie about this one, Ze. The thread was about Transgendered women I look on the FtM transsexuals as men and will treat the FtM cross-dressers as they present in the same way that I treat an MtF Cd as she presents. This thread seemed to be aimed at MtF CD's more than the rest of us.


I daresay we're quite happy when we're actually recognized as "men trapped in women's bodies." We're even happier when we're actually respected for that.

Could this be why I didn't think a thread about women was about you men?


the line "just-a-girl" grates on us exactly the same way "man-in-a-dress" does for mtf transsexuals.

I can fully understand that


there are so many variants where gender/sexuality are concerned that nothing can be determined in a list as simple as this one and i'm sure this is why it has provoked such a large response... although my gender identity is becoming more solid, my orientation hasn't become clear completely. where is the category for that? heh.


CD very part time, only into women
CD frequent, could find men attractive when en femme

I think that any attempt to mix sexuality in with a discussion about transgender is just asking for trouble. In recent weeks I have had to explain to some people in an LGBT presure group that being T does not make me G but may mean I turn out to be L. I also had to explain to someone from a local paper that the proportion of LGB in the T community is probably around the same as in the cis community, but it can get complicated when we make the transition.

[LitaKelley]

You forgot

CD frequent, only into women
Translesbian

[Jeanna]

There are so many types and presentations of transgendered women around and all are so different.

CD very part time, only into women
CD frequent, could find men attractive when en femme
TG not yet 24/7, feel identified as female
TG in transition and considering SRS
TG full time but decided against SRS, enjoys her male genitalia
Pre op TS
Post op TS




What is this? Your seven steps to becoming a woman?

[CharleneCD]

My biggest issue with this list is what does a crossdressers sexual attraction have to do with anything. Sexual identity and Gender identity are completely separate issues.

As for lists, they will never catch everybody. Hey what about me, I am bi-gender. LOL That is what is nice about Transgender, it covers the whole spectrum.

[Melody Moore]

The thing about gender & sexuality that it is so fluid that its nearly impossible to list all the variants of gender diverse people in society. Here is a really good video that shows you how fluid that gender & sexuality is and that its not binary like many ignorant people in society quite often believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXI9w0PbBXY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXI9w0PbBXY

[ReineD]

To those of you who criticize Linda.wai's attempt to classify the community, please give her a break! :p She has under 100 posts and she only joined last month.

I too wanted to find a way to organize it all when I first joined, plus I wanted definitions that made sense to me. Most of us do get past this when we realize that the definitions change, not only with each individual, but also as self-awareness deepens, but you can't blame someone new for wanting to get a handle on it. Maybe Linda is trying to figure out where she fits into the overall scheme of things.

:hugs:

[GaleWarning]

Reine, you know how much I respect your thoughtful posts ... however, this time I feel that linda.wai needs to contemplate my suggestion that there are only two types of human beings ... those who are members of cd.com and those who are not.

Classification is a form of control. I'm into complete conviviality.

Everything is beautiful in it's own way!

[ReineD]

Clayfish ... you are free to not define things for yourself. Please understand that others might not feel the same way you do. If you don't like this thread, you can bypass it. :)

[Melody Moore]

Hi Reine,

Linda's intentions might have been well & good, however if you are going to join a transgender community to try & work out where you fit into that community then I don't believe this is the way to do it - especially in a community of transsexuals with a LOT more experience than yourself. There is nothing in her post that indicates any of intention to find out where she fits in here. Is all it has done is shown the rest of the community how limited her understanding about transgender issues really is. I think that most of the ensuing discussion has been very informative and helpful and I hope also the video I just posted also teaches her & others here how fluid gender & sexuality really is and why it cant ever be so simply defined and labelled.

PS: So why didn't you manage to find away to organise it all Reine? Did you realise that it was a mammoth task & virtually impossible to define?

[Jorja]

Well MelodyN, I am glad someone left you in charge of how we should all think and feel. Just because you might have a few years under your bra strap at being TG,TS,TV,or CD does not in any way mean you have all the answers. I am sure if you would lift you wig and listen, Linda could probably teach you a thing or two about being TG,TS,TV,or CD that you have not thought of. I for one have been at this for 45+ years, 30 years of that full time and I still learn something new about our world everyday. What is right for you and what you believe may not be right for the next person. We are all individuals and see it from our own perspective.
While I agree Linda's list may not be quite accurate, she is at least making an attempt to learn and understand. As she matures and grows more confident in herself I am sure she will learn where she fits in just fine on her own like you and I did. Do not be so quick to berate or dismiss anyone here just because they do not measure up to your understanding and beliefs of our world.

[Melody Moore]

Jorja, did I ever profess to have all the answers hun? and did I profess to know everything? in fact I'm a student like the rest of us... and welcome that opportunity to expand my knowledge everyday... I really didnt think that I was really critical of her in any bad way... if anything I thought my contributions to this topic of discussion were some of the more informative and yet I'm merely a babe in the woods, so how about you climb down off your soapbox for a minute and have a good think about what you just said to me? and try and see this from other people's perspective as well?

[GaleWarning]

Very reminiscent of the mathematical notion of being able to sub-divide a small section of a number line into ever decreasing, but eternally divisible line segments!

It's the same here, I suspect.

May I suggest that we cease to dwell on those things which separate us one from another, and seek instead to find those things upon which we can all agree?

I'll make the initial call.

1. We all feel that it is ok to dress in the clothing of "the opposite sex".

(A nasty thought has just occurred to me ... perhaps we cannot even agree on this point!)
AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGH

[Jorja]

Jorja, did I ever profess to have all the answers hun? and did I profess to know everything? in fact I'm a student like the rest of us... and welcome that opportunity to expand my knowledge everyday... I really didnt think that I was really critical of her in any bad way... if anything I thought my contributions to this topic of discussion were some of the more informative and yet I'm merely a babe in the woods, so how about you climb down off your soapbox for a minute and have a good think about what you just said to me? and try and see this from other people's perspective as well?

MelodyN,
I am not going to get into a flame war with you. I have said my piece and that is that. Period

[ReineD]

Is all it has done is shown the rest of the community how limited her understanding about transgender issues really is.

I keep several things in mind when I read posts. The date joined, the number of posts, the country of origin., and the members' age as well, if it shines through the posts. There are other things to consider than the obvious, such as a facility with the written language. Not everyone has the ability to express their idea easily in writing. I have a son like this.

Linda is new, but is she also young? Might there be a small language barrier? Perhaps cultural differences in writing styles?

Yes, some of the answers are helpful, but others are down right insulting and some even make fun of her. Where is everyone's compassion? If someone wants to come in and help Linda expand her definitions this is fine, but to criticize her for attempting to make sense of it all is beyond rude in my opinion.


PS: So why didn't you manage to find away to organise it all Reine? Did you realise that it was a mammoth task & virtually impossible to define?

I have found a way to organize it all and my organization continues to evolve with each question I ask, each post I read and each post I make. And it will continue to evolve for as long as I'm here. Hopefully.

[Fraye]

Sometimes people choose between being compassionate and being right, and end up being neither.

[CharleneCD]

ReineD, I belong to a group or two where even having the word GURL in your screen name will stir up some interesting comments. What they would have done to this topic and the person posting it is not worth thinking about. Then again they do advertise not being the place to discuss trans 101 type issues. What I am trying to say, is that I have seen true bashing and this is not it. We all as newbies come in with ideas that are guided by what we have been taught by society. (in other words wrong) Constructive criticism is a good way to make make someone look at what they are saying and thinking, and there is nothing wrong with it as long as it is done with tact and manners. Yes some who have posted to this thread did so without tact, you would have had better results going after them on that angle. Instead of the broad brush of "all of you give her a break" try "constructive criticism is OK, calling the post garbage is not".

[Emily Ann Brown]

Renee K...

I forget what I left my box...hahahahaha....an getting back in a box.

Em

[Kaitlyn Michele]

As i've said before, there are only 2 types of people in this world.

people that think there are two types of people , and people that don't.

people all think differently..i found the original post a bit wanting..my personal view around categorizing and labeling trans people has evolved over time. i have an open mind about it and i think its ok to debate the pros and cons.

one thing about lists is that it always makes some folks feel left out..on the other hand, its a great way to bridge understanding..

one thing i would add is that there is sometimes a feeling of empowerment and affirmation in finally getting to that point in your life where you "get it" or you feel like you've finally reached your own sense of peace...and the natural inclination is to want to share that and let people know about it...sometimes that can come off very condescending and judgmental (HRT discussions anyone??)...its a learning process for everyone and people that reach their goals need to learn how to communicate what they did and what they know in a less judging and more understanding way. this is especially evident when you trash someone's "list" because you think your list is the right one..

[Rianna Humble]

There is nothing in her post that indicates any of intention to find out where she fits in here. Is all it has done is shown the rest of the community how limited her understanding about transgender issues really is.


I really didnt think that I was really critical of her in any bad way...

In that case I'd hate to see you being critical in a bad way.

I admit I was taken aback by seeing the original post in this part of the site, and I do think that some of the comments here have been positive


So why didn't you manage to find away to organise it all Reine? Did you realise that it was a mammoth task & virtually impossible to define?

Unfortunately, this is not an example of those.



I never knew we could all be so easily pigeon-holed

Nor is this

I'm willing to do what Reine suggests and cut Linda some slack - are you?

[ReineD]

Yes some who have posted to this thread did so without tact, you would have had better results going after them on that angle. Instead of the broad brush of "all of you give her a break" try "constructive criticism is OK, calling the post garbage is not".

If you go back and read my post, I did address it to *those of you who criticize* Linda's attempt to make sense of it all, not *all of you* as you suggest. I did put it as nicely as I could and it was only later, after some members defended the direction this thread was taking, that I characterized some of the criticisms as being rude. Which they are.

Because cd.com has such a wide variety of members, sometimes the topics are trans 101. This happens in every section, and there's nothing wrong with this. We are a support forum. This particular section is one of the three that is accessible to the public and I hate to see gang mentality sentiments develop in threads here. They're just not nice. I honestly think we're a better forum than that. We also need to remember that we are transmen, transwomen, men, and women who ideally work in a spirit of cooperation, compassion, and sensitivity. We don't want to come off as being a forum full of territorial, insensitive louts, do we? Nor do we want to come off as bitchy divas? And before you accuse me of calling people in this thread a lout or a diva, I'm not. I'm just saying this is the impression outsiders will get of us if we allow the direction this thread was taking to continue, not to mention how Linda must feel reading some of the responses to her post.

[Jorja]

I do apologize for my out burst last night. Some of the things said and the way I took them just got my knickers in a knot.

[linda.wai]

I don't understand the disagreement. I just know now that not every transgendered woman is similar to one another. We are a very heterogenous group.

[Gerrijerry]

Ok and what is the point of this?

[ReineD]

I took it that Linda was trying to figure things out for herself. A mapping of her future of sorts.

[Rianna Humble]

May I suggest that we cease to dwell on those things which separate us one from another, and seek instead to find those things upon which we can all agree?

I'll make the initial call.

1. We all feel that it is ok to dress in the clothing of "the opposite sex".

To the extent that the original poster is trying to understand how different parts of the community have differing needs, there is nothing wrong with looking at how we differ. If it is done to divide us, then I would agree that it is not a good thing to do.

I'm glad your suggested starting point used sex rather than gender.

When we seek to understand how each others needs differ, we can grow stronger and more compassionate.

When we seek to encourage that which unites us, we grow together.

When we seek to denigrate or to concentrate on what divides us, we diminish not only the other person but ourselves as well.

[Katesback]

gave up with the labels. I have herd soo many that I am waiting for someone to tell me they are transSPECIES. When I hear that the circle will be complete.

[bobi jean]

Damn, I thought this was (it has been in the past) a support group.
How many differant variations of "TRANS" ANTHING are there?
I don't know either!!!
What I do know (I think) is WE ARE ALL DIFFERANT IN SO MANY WAYS, BUT ALSO THE SAME IN MANY WAYS.
WE COULD EACH "LABEL" OURSELF. A simple descriptive word to describe yourself, leaving absolutely no reason for any other person, regardless of their "LABLE", to discredit, question or in anyway argue with your "LABEL". Then in about 1000 years we can go back and list all the differant "LABELS" in alphebetical order to establish one or two "labels" that would describe everyone of us.
I'll start,
I'm a "ESTW ", (Early Stage Trans Woman ). born, raised and lived male for 60 years before starting transition.

EDIT;;; I went back to read the ORIGINAL post again..
nowhere did I read or see anything about the post being "all inclusive" simply a list of the variations known to the poster. Maybe we should ALL have added to the list instead of questioning the list!!! Do ya think????

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Maybe we should ALL have added to the list instead of questioning the list!!! Do ya think????

That'a agreat point.. My theory (i admit perhaps influenced by my own experience) is that many of us are highly influenced by Shame....not guilt but shame...the feeling of WRONGNESS...like i am a wrong person...
the way i feel is wrong, and i am less because of it..

i fight this feeling everyday.. and it caused me all kinds of very stupid, circular and frustrated thinking. and so i think we all come up with these internal definitions about ourselves...it is very difficult to simply exist sometimes when you have a F'd up sense of your own identity!! Especially when we are 5 years old, and unbeknownst to our innocent little heads we are all making decisions that will shape the rest of our lives...some lucky *******s tell mom when they are 5 and they get to transition on Oprah!!!! how lucky and adorable is that little girl??!! Some of us hate our penis to death...some can't look in the mirror, some get obsessed over looking the most feminine or imagine ourselves as women just to enjoy sex.(and feel incredibly ashamed) and others say Screw everybody and transition into a terrible life situation... but others seem to transition successfully and beautifully.. and so when you are challenged on your own definition it causes a lot of difficulties...you may feel left out, you may feel like that other transsexual has a "better" form of transsexuality...i HATE when people spew stuff about "being a true transsexual"...wtf am i ? a false transsexual??@?!! thats what goes through my mind (just being honest)....

so i say just have a real long list like bobi jean says...i am working to being ok with myself and whatever i define myself by....however, i can tell you what is happening during transtion...I find it impossible to define myself...i don't think about it anymore!!! its like what my sister said when i disclosed this...She said.."i don't get it, I don't know what it means to be a woman, how can you know??" now that's what i think...all the why's and question's are gone...thats what transition did for me...I am very interested if other transitioning girls have thought this way...im curious about whether in the end, if we get to transition we all get to basically the same place...I dont know the answer to this..

also, sometimes i feel quite masculine, but now i just don't let it bother me...it doesnt bother me at all....

i just am me. and being ok with that is what its all about...my life is much more difficult, there is alot of physical pain (an incredible amount frankly), and my life is much more risky in every way (safety, finances, relationships, health) but i would do it all over again in a heartbeat..

if you feel a certain way about your own definintion, transitioning? cd? pre op? part time bi gendered? even the dreaded autogynphelia? not trans anymore, just a woman?? these are all totally valid and normal things to think based on all the trans people i've met...if you are good with it...i suggest there is every reason to tell others your story but there is no reason to argue about it...

if you are not good with yourself , and trying to get good with yourself... i think its great to read these lists and posts to get insight into what others are thinking...HOW OTHERS ARE COPING with their own difficulties ...and what you have to GAIN and LOSE in transition...i've read every post carefully for years, and i got alot out of it...

...there,....i got that off my chest...sorry about all the blah blah blah..but i just enjoy writing about stuff...if nothing else, it helps me to write about it!!

[ReineD]

Maybe we should ALL have added to the list instead of questioning the list!!! Do ya think????

:hugs:

[Loni]

here is another pigeonhole. a cross dresser that wants to remain a male, but is thinking about having a couple three items removed due to non functioning.
and just so she can fit into jeans better.

[Rianna Humble]

I went back to read the ORIGINAL post again..
nowhere did I read or see anything about the post being "all inclusive" simply a list of the variations known to the poster. Maybe we should ALL have added to the list instead of questioning the list!!! Do ya think????

I don't think that just adding to the list would have helped the original poster understand that TG is an umbrella term.

I do think that criticism of the poster only reflects badly on the critic first and the rest of us second.

[JessicaNK]

Hello all ... newbie to these forums here.

I believe there are many different variants of us. From a very early age (I'd say about 4) I knew something was wrong. From age 4 through about 10 it was always in my mind this feeling that I should have been a girl, but I kept it to myself. As a kid I did constantly question "who was better off boys or girls" and I didn't really act on these female feelings until after age 10 when it took off, mostly wearing my mother's and older sister's clothes in the middle of the night while the family slept or while I was home alone. Well one day I got caught wearing the clothes and the #### hit the fan with the parents and my slightly older brother and sister. I left home at a young age for more reasons than just wanting to wear women's clothing and have been dressing up ever since. But it is more than just a cross dressing thing for me. For me, I can tell you from the bottom of my heart that there is a girl inside of me who had this cruel trick played on her. If I could transition seamlessly where society would not second guess my gender I would not hestitate. There is no doubt in my mind I would be happier as a woman. But not only did life play a cruel trick on me giving me male genitals at birth, but puberty played an even crueler trick on me. If I could have transition before puberty kicked in, I may have had a chance. But I developed a very male body and voice and I just can't see how I could pull it off ... grrrrr.

Throughout life I have always used sports as a way to mask my transgendered feelings. Inside I am a girl, but to the big bad world the external facade I presented was that of a ferocious athlete. It's as if I took out my frustrations for my not being a girl against my opponents on the athletic field (and of course I also just like to compete). Anyway I am older now (mid 40s) and my desire to be female never stops. When I see an attractive woman my first reaction isn't "she is hot, I want to do her". No my first reaction is "why couldn't I have been like her". These feeling will be with me until the day I die (or come down with something like altzeimers). But unfortunately because of my very male physic, I can't see myself dying as a post op female. When I do die, I am pretty sure I will still have my male genitilia. Damn I hate those things, though I do use them to pleasure myself (they are good for something).

After all these years I have a decent relationship with my family, but we don't talk about my transgendered condition. I keep it to myself though I have written a letter for them in case I was to prematurely die. I would not call my family a hardcore religious family, but most of them are Christians and despite their failed indoctrination efforts on me (they know I am agnostic) and I will not be joining them in their Christian heaven, so they do treat me as bit of a black sheep. I don't know if there is or is not a God (the universe is far too big for my comprehension) but if there is a God, why did this God play such a cruel trick on me? This God gave me the wrong tools. I should have been an ins'y not an outs'y. Sometimes wonder if my family talks about me behind my back because how can they forget I was caught wearing women's clothing on more than one occasion. I have had girlfriends, I have had sex, but I never found the right girl to marry. As much as I love and respect women, it's never been easy being a man to the woman in your life when inside the man secretly wishes he was the woman. After all the vast majority of women want their men to be men, not women.

I know I am not alone, but I really don't think there is a "one size fits all" when it comes to being transgendered. If only my parents had allowed me to transition into a girl before puberty set in and ravaged my body, maybe I would look better in women's clothing now. If only I had not been an athlete trying to compensate for my inner terror maybe I would look better in women's clothing to this day. If only I had been born into the female gender, then my soul would not have been terrorized all these years. But with all that said ... I am still grateful that I have been given the gift of life. I have done some cool things in all my years, even if I was doing them in the wrong body. :heehee:

[Louise C]

Jessica! Thankyou for posting on this thread!

I am also fairly new around these parts of the forum and wasn't sure if i wanted to join in this particular thread even though it interested me immensely. Your initial experiences of how you felt are almost an exact mirror image of my own, One of the things i used to think was "why couldn't i have been her?". It has been one of the most painful questions throughout. I initially came to this forum a few years back to get support and found that many men transition well into their later years.
I couldn't handle the thought that i had lost my twenties and thirties to being a man and not lived as woman, so much so that i just couldn't carry on. I really thought i would never be able to transition and that i was too old. Now, though into my forties i realise that it is never too late and am feeling quite hopeful again. I still have massive fears and doubts about myself,- i'm too tall, still look like a man, feet and hands too big etc. so i started visiting this forum again to look for a bit of support as i live in a very small community and although i have some supportive friends and family, feel totally alone most of the time.
I was quite shocked and upset by some of the posts on this thread, although thats probably to do with the hormones. :-) so didn't really feel that i could post something as it may not be well received. Somedays, today for example, i feel so fragile that any criticism destroys my confidence. Other days i will slug it out with the nastiest of them.

I agree with Kaitlyn that it would have been good to add to the list. Here's my addition:

CD at 7, Hetero TS at 14, and now "Not so sure, it will depend on the person, Preop TS at 43". (not sure if that covers it all either!)

[Rianna Humble]

Thank you both - Jessica and Louise - for getting this thread back on track. You are both right that there are very many variants amongst the transgendered community, but we all share at least one thing in common - we go beyond the traditional binary gender stereotype.

Jessica, at your age I too felt that I could never transition because there were too many things going against me including a voice one octave below the male bass voice :eek: so I carried on with the pretence of being a man for another decade or so :sad: before I finally became so depressed that I had to choose between transition and death. Please do not let that happen to you. When I finally sought professional help, I said to my doctor that I knew I would never be a beautiful woman, but it was better to end my days as an ugly woman than to live another day as a man. Now, people who knew me before tell me that I am pretty (one said beautiful, but I think that was polite bs) and that I look much more relaxed and confident than I ever did as a man. My voice still needs a shed-load of work, but I am accepted as a woman even by those who have no reason to pretend.

Louise, one thing that I believe you and I share in common is that we spent so long feeling ugly because we were in the wrong body that it has harmed our ability to see ourselves as others see us. I am still trying to learn that other people see a pretty(ish) older woman when they look at me. If I can learn that, then so can you. When we look in the mirror, it is difficult to look beyond the negative self image we have had for so many years, but the truth is out there somewhere - we just have to learn where to look for it. :hugs:

[shesadvl]

Maybe we should ALL have added to the list instead of questioning the list!!! Do ya think????

:clap:

[GaleWarning]

Maybe we should ALL have added to the list instead of questioning the list!!! Do ya think????

OK ... I suggest HB ... no, not a pencil ... a human being!
Can we all agree to this?
(See post #51 above)

[Rianna Humble]

What if I don't agree with your definition of the term "Human Being"? :tongueout

[GaleWarning]

Oh no!!!!
Can't we agree about anything????
All is lost.
:eek:

[Melody Moore]

Ok, some people here dont understand why had such an issue with the list posted by the original poster
so I will play this game I just wonder if they will play as well instead of continuing to derail this thread? :daydreaming:

Intersexed (Pseudo-hermaphroditism) - Incorrect Infantile Gender Assignment (Male) - Now Transitioning (transsexual) Female.

So who else here is fits into the exact same category as me? :heehee:

The photo of me below was taken 2 weeks BEFORE I started HRT.

[noeleena]

Hi.

Intersexed wired both male & female.. Androgynous yet still human.

& every one is different in thier own way.

...noeleena...

[ReineD]

I'll add to the list as well:

Androgynous: Expressing and/or presenting merged culturally/socially defined feminine and masculine characteristics, or mainly neutral characteristics. May or may not express dual gender identity.

Bigender / Dualgender: A person who possesses and expresses a distinctly masculine persona and a distinctly feminine persona. Is comfortable in and enjoys presenting in both gender roles.

Gender-Bender: A person who merges characteristics of any gender in subtle ways or intentionally flaunts blurred stereotypical gender norms for the purpose of shocking others, without concern for passing.

I also think this comment is worth noting, except its author did not offer a name for it. Maybe there are such persons along the entire gender continuum:

One group you almost never hear of on these boards is the group that doesn't crossdresses at all because they feel no hope of looking like the opposite sex or even the desire. Feeling it suffices.

[busker]

If someone lined up all the chips that are falling from all the transgendered shoulders here, one could probably walk to Mars and back. Linda, keep working on it. Language is what seperates the human animal from the other animals and it is right to try and use that tool to describe your place in the world you inhabit. If others refuse to use that tool to describe themselves, they are the worse for it and they are always in the darkness.
Just glad to be a CDer . Don't be put off by the "anti-label gang" It is simply an excuse not to think about what or who they are and where they fit in--as we all do in this, or any other universe.

[Melody Moore]

Don't be put off by the "anti-label gang" It is simply an excuse not to think about what or who they are and where they fit in--as we all do in this, or any other universe.
I disagree with that statement, and even my psychologist told me yesterday that she hate labels and I totally understand her reasoning - its because far too many people psycho-analysis themselves & more often to blame for mis-labelling themselves - when they find out they are not really this or that, then that leads to far greater confusion and more psychological problems such as depression & even suicide. I said it before & I will say it again - Im not one who can be labelled & pigeon-holed & Im sure that there many others like me - we are all different - no two people are ever the same - the only thing we share in common & where we fit in is that we are all transgendered human beings on Earth! Now beam me up please Scotty!

[GaleWarning]

Don't be put off by the "anti-label gang" It is simply an excuse not to think about what or who they are and where they fit in--as we all do in this, or any other universe.

In no way am I ever a member of a gang ... more of a rugged invidualist!

Busker, I have spent a lot of time thinking about where I fit in, both in terms of my gender and in this wonderful world we live in.

I have come to the conclusion that what matters way more than the things that divide us, are the things we share in common.

I have also come to realise that labels ARE a form of control, which is why I argue that true freedom can only be attained by refusing to be pigeon-holed by them.

Could you please give these comments a thought?

[ReineD]

even my psychologist told me yesterday that she hate labels

Which is fine, if the patient is not seeking to figure him or herself out. But if he or she were, there's no doubt your therapist would be helping him or her to do so.

Self-definition at any one point in time does not box anyone in. It can, instead, provide a clear understanding and a foundation for future change or growth, even if a part of the self-label is "I don't know yet".

I dunno ... there are just so many people here who seem reluctant to be clear about who they are and what they want. From my viewpoint, it looks like fear. But, fear of what?

Here is another definition for everyone:

pomosexual (from Wikipedia): a person who avoids sexual orientation labels such as heterosexual or homosexual.

pomogender (extrapolated from the above): a person who avoids gender labels such as male, female, or anything else in between. :)



I have also come to realise that labels ARE a form of control, which is why I argue that true freedom can only be attained by refusing to be pigeon-holed by them.

Lol. Then the accumulation of scientific knowledge, which is communicated by providing definitions and explanations, is an attempt to control what? The advancement of human knowledge?

[GaleWarning]

I dunno ... there are just so many people here who seem reluctant to be clear about who they are and what they want. From my viewpoint, it looks like fear. But, fear of what?



I am absolutely clear about who I am, Reine. What I want may be a different matter, but has no links to my crossdressing.

I know, too, that my freedom from labels has also left me free from fear; free to be me!

[Melody Moore]

Here is another definition for everyone:

pomosexual (from Wikipedia): a person who avoids sexual orientation labels such as heterosexual or homosexual.

pomogender (extrapolated from the above): a person who avoids gender labels such as male, female, or anything else in between. :)
Reine, you really should provide a complete definition of such abbreviated words .... none of these words are
recognised by any standard dictionary other than Urban Dictionary so they really amount to nothing but slang.

Pomo is an abbreviated adjective for post-modern

I'm just so glad not to be living back in the dark ages when scientist still had the need to put labels on specimen jars - and how often did they make mistakes when they thought they had discovered something new & fantastic and had to tear the sticky labels off when they later found out they discovered something else?

[ReineD]

Reine, you really should provide a complete definition of such abbreviated words .... none of these words are
recognised by any standard dictionary other than Urban Dictionary so they really amount to nothing but slang.


The full definition, including the portmanteau (as they call it) of pomo is on the site. I figured anyone who was interested could look it up. I provided the source for this reason. :)

Many words find their way into dictionaries after they've been in popular usage. I think this site is one of the forerunners for common usage of trans terms, don't you? :)

[GaleWarning]

Lol. Then the accumulation of scientific knowledge, which is communicated by providing definitions and explanations, is an attempt to control what? The advancement of human knowledge?

What is truth? The thinkers of this world have been trying to fathom this out since time immemorial. And we are no nearer the answer to the question than mankind was when it was first asked.

I have had a modest career as an academic. My publications list is relatively small. One day, at a conference, I had an AHA! moment. I realised that the new terminology which was being bandied about, supposedly in an attempt to gain more insight into that (but more generally, any) particular phenomenon under scrutiny, was actually jargon! Nothing more than words created by the authors of papers, to create their own niches within that academic community! Their motives were selfish, rather than selfless. They were simply trying to impress their peers.

To return to this transgendered community ... if it were so that each new term created to help our community better understand itself, actually fulfilled that role, could we not expect greater harmony to emerge within our community, as we better came to understand one another?

In reality, the opposite effect happens. The terms become items to argue about, not to agree upon. This is precisely what tends to happen at any academic conference.

When I joined this forum, I eagerly sought a term which described me. I found none. What I did find, were behaviour patterns which were similar to mine and others which simply made no sense to me at all. After quite a bit of reading, I realised that what I do and how I think is completely unique to me. There is no label to describe me, no term to pigeonhole me.

Let's be absurd, for a moment ... let me conjure up a new word CLAYFISH which I claim descibes my kind of transgendered nature to a C. Suppose I were to then write not just a paper, but a whole learned book describing CLAYFISH. Suppose every member of this forum were to read the book. Some would see quite a lot of themselves in what they read; others would see less; yet others would see nothing at all which is in tune with their particular kind of transgenderism. Some would give the book rave reviews; others would slam it.

Every time I see a thread appear on the forum, focussing on transgender labels, I know we are in for, at best, a lively debate and at worst, a great big fight. It happens over and over again. We seem to be enslaved by the jargon.

[ReineD]

Nothing more than words created by the authors of papers, to create their own niches within that academic community!Their motives were selfish, rather than selfless. They were simply trying to impress their peers.


Tell that to the biologists, chemists, physicists, and mathematicians who made it possible to advance our knowledge since the middle ages.



Every time I see a thread appear on the forum, focussing on transgender labels, I know we are in for, at best, a lively debate and at worst, a great big fight. It happens over and over again. We seem to be enslaved by the jargon.

That's because people like you persist in either slamming, or making fun of people who are trying to figure things out for themselves. None of your posts in this thread (and there are many) contributed to the expansion of the first post. I'd say that you were one of the greater proponents to the derailment of the thread, and your behavior here was none better than a troll. If you don't like to define things, they why don't you quit posting in threads that look for definitions? I'm sure the OPs would appreciate it!

As a member, I find this really tiresome.

I'd close this thread, but I think it would give you and others too much satisfaction. Instead I'll simply delete any more comments that don't contribute to the OP's initial point.

[Aprilrain]

I'm trying to figure out why some people seem to be getting so heated over this issue. The OPs statement to me just seemed like a celebration of the whole gender spectrum. I would much prefer that we label our selves rather than allow others who have no idea what they are talking about do the labeling. Of course we are all human and it is intrinsicly human to name stuff. I remember in the 80s and 90s the word faggot was the preferred word amongst young people who werert gay but I rarely hear this now not because "straight" people changed their minds but because gays got vocal. Anyway I like transgenderd I feel that it could include all of us if we let it. If on a personal level every individual needs to more narrowly define themselves let them. I am thankful that all of these different descriptors are out there because it has given me permission to think beyond transexual and crossdreser to find what fits me.

[Melody Moore]

I think this site is one of the forerunners for common usage of trans terms, don't you? :)
With my love of labels? Youve seriously gotta be kidding me if you think I would ever agree? This is the
problem clearly highlighted in this thread.... there are far too many labels already in the trans community.


I would much prefer that we label our selves rather than allow others who have no idea what they are talking about do the labelling.
And that is exactly why I have always believed April that you also need to be working through issues with doctors & therapist if you start to seriously contemplate taking hormones and transitioning because quite often we have no idea ourselves where we actually do fit in the gender spectrum or if there are underlyng issues which can endanger our own lives - once our condition is diagnosed & understood then the proper treatments can begin and the correct labels applied.

[GaleWarning]

There are so many types and presentations of transgendered women around and all are so different.

CD very part time, only into women
CD frequent, could find men attractive when en femme
TG not yet 24/7, feel identified as female
TG in transition and considering SRS
TG full time but decided against SRS, enjoys her male genitalia
Pre op TS
Post op TS




Well, Linda, you now have a large variety of different perspectives on this, your original post. It would be good, if you could let us know which posts have been helpful to you, and which not.

As a teacher, I have tried to set up "conceptual conflict" (sorry about the jargon) on this thread, in order to get us to think about the issue you have raised from a different point of view.

As a biologist, I would point out that you are a human being, probably of the sub-class transgendered. For me, that is enough, but perhaps you are keen to classify yourself in greater detail. That is your choice.

As a scientist, I would point out to you that many of the most important scientific discoveries have been made by those who dared to think thoughts which were diametrically opposed to the "mainstream". Think of scientists like Copernicus (the world actually rotates around the sun, as opposed to everyone else, who believed, wrongly, that the sun rotates around the earth) and Galileo, who was persecuted and excommunicated for his beliefs, which turned out in the end to be true.

As a mathematician, I remind you that we are trained to look for patterns and to seek generalisations, instead of being bogged down by particular cases.

Linda, I hope that my contributions to this thread have stimulated some thought and occasionally brought a bit of light-hearted laughter to an otherwise extremely serious subject.

I wish you all the best in your quest for understanding and self-actualisation. My job on this thread is done, and I will not post on it again.

[Rianna Humble]

none of these words are recognised by any standard dictionary other than Urban Dictionary so they really amount to nothing but slang.

Dictionaries are always a lag indicator of language. New words are being coined all the time, but their adoption by a dictionary is constrained by a number of factors including:

1 Whether any of that dictionary's lexicographers has come across the word and found it interesting
2 The perceived prevalence of the word by that lexicographer
3 The frequency of publication of the dictionary

This does not make the new word "slang" before the publication of a dictionary that includes it, it makes the word a neologism.

[Noemi]

Definitions are exercises in relativity. By using a structured format like a list or category or definition we can see where we fit and where we do not fit. This thread is a positive exercise in thinking, and a further step in verbalizing the many feelings that we all encounter. Otherwise there are too many fast free forming ideas that are difficult to attach to a structure The list or category helps to define them and helps us to communicate with each other. Our nature or identity is really contingent on how we all feel at the end of the day....and furthermore pantyhose Rock!!!

[busker]

Clayfish, as a scientist--nay, a biologist, a mathematician,a scientist, and a published one at that-- and whatever--gee, aren't those labels?????????? For someone who doesn't want to be boxed in by labels, you certainly had no problem trying to impress us--guess what??? with LABELS. In the teaching profession, it certainly would be hard NOT to use labels or your students must be having a real time of it.
At a restaurant you would really want someone to know that when you said the chicken label, you didn't mean rat or dog.
The denial of labels is more likely the denial of reality. You don't mind reading the TRANSGENDERED forum--another label--and you certainly know what it means.
Me thinks there is a lot of hogwash afoot today.

[ReineD]

.... there are far too many labels already in the trans community.

I know it's complex. No one said it should be easy to identify it all.

But, the video you posted earlier does an excellent job (thanks for posting it :) ), and for those of you who did not have the time to watch it, I've taken the liberty to extract their main definitions. Every single situation that people have mentioned in this thread falls along one or more of the four listed spectrums - except whether a transsexual is non, pre, or post op, since the decision either has to do with economics, or an individual's personal comfort levels. I think most will agree that SRS is not a qualifier for being TS.




Transgender: An umbrella term for people who do not conform or identify with the gender expectations associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. Also, people who feel the binary gender system is an incomplete description of who they are.


~~ --------------- ~~

There are four different scales in the following Authentic Gender Model, used to determine gender. A person can be a combination of any point, along each of the four scales. The variations are endless, but the description for each individual is quite simple. It is also important to remember that descriptions are not static. They will change as a person becomes more self-aware.



Authentic Gender Model

1) Sex: Bodies change over time either naturally or by choice.

Scale: Male <------ (Intersex) ------> Female


2) Gender role/presentation: is not genetic or biologic. It changes over time and over different cultures.

Scale: Masculine <------ (Androgynous) ------> Feminine


3) Gender identity: unique to each individual.

Scale: Man <------ (any combination) ------> Woman


4) Sexual orientation: independent of biological sex, gender role, and gender identity.

Scale: Women/Both/Neither/All/Other/Men


Some examples using the above gender model:

Example 1: Birth female, whose gender role/presentation is androgynous, who identifies as a man, and who is attracted to women.

Example 2: Birth intersex, whose gender role/presentation is feminine, who identifies as a woman, and who is bisexual.

Example 3: Birth male, whose gender role/presentation is sometimes masculine, sometimes feminine, who sometimes identifies as man and sometimes as a woman, and who is attracted to women.

Me: Birth female, whose gender role/presentation is feminine, who identifies as a woman, and who is attracted to males (except for when my SO, who is example 3, identifies as a woman).

Also, here are the various self-identity short-cut terms. I may have missed some and there are variations. Also their meanings may vary based on culture, race, or class:

Androgynous
Drag king
Drag queen
Bi-gender
Dual-gender
Tri-gender
Omni-gender
Female-to-male
Male-to-female
Crossdresser
Transvestite
Transwoman
Transman
Transgender woman
Transgender man
Transsexual
Transsexual woman
Transsexual man
Femme queen
Trannie
Transgenderist

Genderqueer or Gender non-conforming: A person who does not identify as a man or a woman, or who might feel in between, or both.

[Kathryn Martin]

The problem with definitions is that the moment they are spoken out loud in application to a human being they are untrue and describe nothing. They are purely conceptual. To correctly describe me, the amount of qualifiers and commentary necessary would become so unwieldy, that my name would be as a long as Treebeards from Lord of the Ring. So just call me Kathryn and then think of your encounters you have had with me here and you have the best approximation of who I am to you.:D

Conceptualizations and concepts, even definitions can be helpful in discourse. But only if we agree on the scope and specifics of what the definition defines. Once we have done so we can use the definition in a discourse in which it stands for as a reduction of a complexity for the purpose of communication.

So maybe we can stop sideswiping our respective carts and start treating this subject like the proverbial ants by collecting all the food for thought we can find and make up our own minds.

[Linda Z]

I'll add to the list as well:

Androgynous: Expressing and/or presenting merged culturally/socially defined feminine and masculine characteristics, or mainly neutral characteristics. May or may not express dual gender identity.

Bigender / Dualgender: A person who possesses and expresses a distinctly masculine persona and a distinctly feminine persona. Is comfortable in and enjoys presenting in both gender roles.


I like is thread! good job ReineD, this helps me think about where I am in finding my balance.
Thank You

Linda Z

[Kelly DeWinter]

What about a dual-hetro-mono-optional-noconformist-pre-post-undecided-tri-unilateral-tetrahexagonlsexual ? Can we we be included ?

[Sharon]

What about a dual-hetro-mono-optional-noconformist-pre-post-undecided-tri-unilateral-tetrahexagonlsexual ? Can we we be included ?

Thank you for giving me a chuckle on a morning I really needed it.:):hugs:

[Kathryn Martin]

What about a dual-hetro-mono-optional-noconformist-pre-post-undecided-tri-unilateral-tetrahexagonlsexual ? Can we we be included ?

So this is a double one-directional in one possibility unfitting before and after triple one sided bounded by twenty-four equal triangular faces person? There is a place for you right by my side, and yes I love you as well......:kiss::itsok:

[ReineD]

I take it then that the definitions based on the fluid 4-scale model that MelodyN graciously provided for us (see inside the quote tags in post #96), proposed by the Gender Identity Project (GIP) (http://www.gaycenter.org/gip), are still not acceptable to people?

Gender and sexual identity are complex, and it is not something that can be covered in just one word or two. To dismiss attempts to sort it all out because it doesn't fit neatly in a box is akin to putting blinders on. IMO. Honestly, sometimes I feel as if some of us are like the child who insists she doesn't like a particular food, without ever having tried it. :)

:hugs:

You know, the idea of not completely describing myself in under 25 words applies to me too. There's no way I or anyone else can fit an entire life experience in such a tiny space. But, there is a way that I can describe my birth sex, gender role, gender identity, and sexual preference when I wish to do so, and it does fit nicely in one sentence. :p