Hands on hips – masculine or feminine?

[Frédérique]

Do you put your hands on your hips anymore? Men used to, but you don’t really see it much these days. Either that, or I’m not looking in the right places. I mean standing, both hands firmly attached to the hips. I would say placed rather than attached, but the former indicates effeminacy, while the latter reads masculine. Sorry, but I notice these subtleties of gesture all the time...

Nowadays you see men with their arms folded over their chest, legs apart (giving the “package” some room), exuding defensiveness or strength via body language. I know this because a young woman once educated me about this somewhat neglected form of human symbolism. What are you trying to tell me with your crossed arms? I’m a MAN? Just try to get by me? I enjoy beer? Hey, you tell me. I never cross my arms like this, mainly because I cross-dress! Get it? The other, similar, male gesture you see is the thumbs hooked into the pockets of the jeans (or belt loops if you’re more...rural), framing the belt buckle (how big is yours?) and/or package in a transparent display of male potency. I understand. You aren’t someone I can talk to about skirt lengths – have you ever met a fairy before? Gotcha...

When I went to art school, I engaged in displays of effeminacy at all times. Why? How? Well, if you stand at your easel, brush in hand, rendering the curvature of a breast, or the myriad features of a face, you usually place one hand on your hip for balance. You’re usually wearing an apron, too, and you’re surrounded by female students struggling with their own interpretations of the model. Everyone who hangs around, day in and day out, engaged in this artistic drudgery, will take on innocent gestures that look effeminate to the outside world simply by osmosis. You’re trying to keep from falling over, and effeminacy helps! I think you should embroider that saying and hang it on the wall! Your very being is in the balance...

Whenever I’m in the company of men, a rare event these days, I always cross my legs whilst standing, place one foot in front of the other, and put one hand on my hip, the other arm dangling at my side, or gesturing to enhance my speech. This tells the other "fellas," in a not too subtle manner, that I’m not one of them. Something is going on just below the surface, boys – can you guess what it is? Pardon me while I giggle...
:heehee:

Hands on hips may be more continental in origin, thus undesirable for American males. I can think of several examples in Art, such as Gainsborough’s “Blue Boy,” Donatello’s “David,” or Cezanne’s “Boy In A Red Waistcoat.” These boys are all approachable human beings, receptive to feelings, an intrinsically European characteristic, IMHO. Rembrandt did a self-portrait where he portrayed himself with both hands on his hips – a sensitive male, obviously, standing on a firm footing of hard-won experience, all obtained by the expression of deep human feeling...

My personal, more recent, hands-on-hips hero is Robert Plant, erstwhile vocalist of Led Zeppelin, depending on what the status of that group is at the moment. Anyway, there he was, in 1979, onstage at Knebworth, singing “Kashmir” to the gathered throng. It’s time for Jimmy Page’s guitar solo, so Mr. Plant withdraws to the rear, near the drum riser, hands on hips. He stands still, out of the spotlight, surrendering the stage to his male companion. I find this to be very moving, especially in these days of unnecessary rock choreography. Alas, this is a bygone era, and anything more continental, or emotional, or reserved in nature is frowned upon here in the land of pointless confrontation and excess...

With that in mind, I yield to my sisters. Do you think at all about body language, and what effeminacy you may or not be projecting to others? Where do you stand, or, more importantly, HOW do you stand?

[Sara Jessica]

I love how you often ask what could be a very simple question with such thought and eloquence. I only wish I could answer in the same manner but alas, I only have my POV to draw upon with little relevant scholarly pursuit to back it up (that's what happens when one goes to business school rather than art school ;) ).

Anyway, I think much of gestures and such because I find myself doing less these days to bury them in guy mode. Feet often closer together when standing. Legs often crossed when sitting (and ever so rare that I might catch myself with the legs spread wide in typical guy-ish fashion). Hand gestures, check...they fly about au natural feminine. Oh but the hands on the hips, I get what you are saying and yes, I do put at least one hand there often. Taking it a step further, I find myself "placing" my hand in the location of where the female waistline would be, higher on the hip.

Putting all these things together along with my physical presentation and i'm shocked that no one has called me out on the gender thing.

Add in a couple body motion differences between the genders. How do you bend down to pick something up off the floor? How do you look at the bottom of your shoe? These are a couple things that were demonstrated during a college psychology class I took. The male & female volunteers demonstrated the differences along very marked gender lines.

post-script, Listening to: Travelogue (The Human League) ...

very good choice, I just switched to this on my iTunes!!!

[Cassidy]

Not long ago there was a documentary on one of the History/Discovery cable channels that dealt with body language. As I recall it featured a number of US presidents giving speaches with pauses put in so the body movements could be discussed. As we know certain ones mean thought, sincerity, defense, relaxation, etc.

I spent the better part of 35 years in the financial services industry and interacted with attorneys and accountants and other captains of industry. I'll admit part of my on the job training was understanding and reading the unspoken word. Toward the end of my career I converted the various motions to sport in that whatever motion made during my conversation by the other party I would emulate. For example if that party crossed the arms over the chest I would do the same, if said person clasped both hands behind the head I would do that as well. It is quite taboo now but years ago if the other party lit a cigarette I would do the same. It got to the point that for me it was theatre.

It is sad to say the unspoken words expressed in body language can be more informative than the spoken ones.

Oh by the way I have a picture of me dressed in motorcycle racing leathers taken at a track day with hands on hips.

[bianca66]

I remember as a kid when men used to hold hands which was more of a European thing but you never see that anymore...Then in the 80's came the way straight men should cross their legs...Don't know if it was because it was a mans world until the 1970's and that stuff didn't matter but it seemed that something had changed and rules needed to be set on being male?

[Sophie_C]

I don't know what is right or wrong, but I CLEARLY remember being told that putting my hands on my hips as a child was "like a girl" and that I "should stop it immediately." This was 3rd or 4th grade. I still slip up all the time...

[Barbara Jo]

Actually, the classic "Superman" pose is both hands on the hips.
In fact, this is often refered to as "the superman pose" and it is interpeted as a display of determined strength.

I guess how having both hands on the hips is interpeted is in what contex it is done.
It can be done in either a feminine or masculine fashion.

[Elizabeth Ann]

With that in mind, I yield to my sisters. Do you think at all about body language, and what effeminacy you may or not be projecting to others? Where do you stand, or, more importantly, HOW do you stand?

Frederique, (how do you get those accent symbols?),

Thinking about it, I sometimes use the hands across the chest stance to display skepticism or disagreement. But I am not a very aggressive person, and I think my favorite male stance is with my hands in my pockets. That seems open, relaxed, and accepting. It feels like a version of those stories about hand wave greetings evolving from showing that you are not carrying a weapon: my hands are constrained in my pockets, and I am not a threat.

But more generally, I sometimes wonder at the myriad features of human life that we tag as masculine or feminine. Why is hands on hips feminine? After all, I have seen a lot of Errol Flynn movies with stereotypical male sword fights with hand on hip (presumably also for balance). Aside from the fact that females have wider hips, the only reason I can think of is that we (society, that is) have decided that it is feminine.

Maybe that is enough, and maybe it is obvious to everyone else that most of the concepts of male and female are social constructs. And if that is true, what does it imply about our efforts to adopt feminine clothing and mannerisms? I suppose that it says that even in our rebellion, we are creatures of, and defined by, the society within which we live. Hands on hips has meaning only because of its definition in the social vocabulary. That is real, of course, but in a greater sense, it is not male or female.

I don't know if there are any practical implications of this not very profound insight. If we put hands on our hips and there is no one around to see it, is it still feminine? Perhaps that is some part of the desire by some of us to bring our cross dressing out of the closet and into the open. Hands on hips are not enough. Someone has to see our hands on hips for it to be female.

Why do you ask these questions on a lazy Sunday morning?

Liz

[Sophie86]

I've noticed that my dad often stands with one leg crossed in front of the other, his right hand rubbing the back of his neck, and his left arm folded across the torso with the left hand under the right elbow. It's a stance he must have unconsciously picked up from his mother, because I remember her doing that, particularly the neck rubbing thing. Sometimes he'll put both hands behind the neck, and that's very much like his mom.

I remember noticing when I was a kid that the manly way to sit with legs crossed was with the legs apart, and one ankle resting on the other knee. But then I would see some manly men who nonetheless crossed their legs knee over knee. I remember thinking at the time that being able to sit that way unselfconsciously made them seem that much more comfortable as men.

As for hands on hips, I think it's a generational thing. I think that as homosexuality has come out of the closet, men who are (predominantly) heterosexual have become defensive about their sexuality, and their body language shows it. When I was a kid, I used to walk down the road with my best friend, our arms over each other's shoulder. Then we learned about queers, and that ended that. Because there is nothing more terrifying than to be labeled a queer.

[Lucy_Bella]

Oh jezz, I have had feem traits all through my life..I was born with tight curly hair the women just went nuts over when I was a kid..I had a habit of twirling the curls like a girl would play with her hairal in that fashion. I always stood with my hands on my hips so femme sometimes that my buddies would make comments to me about it. I have made it a forced habit ( with help from my stepfather ) to not cross my leggs when I sit and my posture while sitting down is very femme so I would slosh.. All of these traits most un noticed until I started dressing that came natural...Odd thinking back..

[Christy_M]

Very thought provoking OP...thank you for that but as someone else mentioned "It is a lazy SUnday morning."

Nevertheless, I have only watched body language as it related to my immediate interactions with people. Like some have said, the body language of others speaks louder than the actual words. I can't remember a time when I subplanted a feminine/masculine label on their language but rather looking for tells about sincerity, confrontation, helpfulness, etc. With that said, I am very conscience about sitting in a room with other men and how they cross their legs. I have always thought knee over knee would be very acceptable way to act effeminate without really drawing attention to myself.

As Sara Jessica mentioned, I have probably done more to out myself unconsciously just because it seemed more naturally. When looked at it this way, it probably does more to suggest that some of the things we do are really only unaccepted in our own minds and have no weight on what society thinks. I look at the bottom of my shoe by looking over my opposite shoulder. I typically pick things up by squatting as though I was in a dress...noone has ever called me on those things.

As far as sitting knee over knee - I have never been comfortable doing this. It either crushes the jewels or hurts the underside of my leg. the alternative is to sit with my knees together and my feet separated about 6 to 8 inches.

[LilSissyStevie]

I don't believe there is anything particularly feminine or masculine about standing akimbo (that's what it's called.) I think the reason you don't see men using that stance anymore, although it was common in the past, is because you need a hip shelf to do it. Men are just too fat nowadays to find their hips. Women, even when they are overweight, still have a waist and hips. One stance I catch myself doing all the time that I think is feminine, or effeminate, is when I'm talking to someone, I place my right elbow in the palm of my left hand. There are other “tells” I've worked to eliminate in drab but that one is sticky.

[Marilyn Beck]

Hands on hips while standing doesn't strike me as masculine or feminine. However, walking with hands on hips seems distinctly feminine to me.

This thread reminds me of an incident when I was about 12 years old. A kid in the neighborhood asked me out of the blue to look at my fingernails. I held out my hands, palms facing down, with my fingers outstretched. The kid laughed at me, saying that's how a girl looks at her fingernails. He then demonstrated the correct way for a boy to look at his fingernails: palms facing up with fingers curled back. At the time, I had doubts about my masculinity and assumed he was absolutely right about this.

[DameErrant]

It's simple; Men have their hands in the form of fists when they rest them on their hips, and women have them open, palms flat.
:devil:
Well, it makes a much sense as any other explanation of arbitrary, culturally determined behavior.
:D

[Kathryn Martin]

Do you think at all about body language, and what effeminacy you may or not be projecting to others? Where do you stand, or, more importantly, HOW do you stand?

Well, I had to read the post several times before I realized what the questions were. I have, of course, many examples of how I project effeminacy no matter how I am dressed. Yet, I believe that is only part of what you asked for.

I never think about how I move, stand sit unless I am practicing a particular move, for a play or some other performance situation. When I see myself reflected in a mirror, a video, a phone message machine or another persons eye I am feminine, effeminate and stand, move and sound like a woman (albeit with resonant baritone). Usually the reaction vacillates between a smile, quite enjoyment, dude you look, uhmm, like a girl, and finally sometimes contempt. Most of the people that are my circle of life, simply know that it is me. My reaction is always a shrug of my shoulders and generally happiness.

How do I stand? Always with my feet close together, one stand leg, one play leg, feet in front of each other or play leg heel in the arch of the other foot, usually when in thought, my right hand on my left shoulder, chin resting on the right hand and my left hand on my hip, shoulders back. When in conversation, head up, elbows close to the body, lower arms and hands often palm open supporting whatever I have to say. The other stance is right foot or left foot firmly on the ground, the other foot off to the side sometimes just the the toes touching the ground, moving in small movements.

How do I sit? legs closed, to one side by the smallest degree, hands in my lap, resting palm open.

Where do I stand? about one third female of center. Not girly girl, not 1916 nurse in orthopedic block heeled shoes and stern updo that even a bomb wouldn't dislodge.

I smile a lot, not sure where that locates me .....

Kathryn

[Nick2Nikki]

I've never interpreted both hands on the hips as a feminine gesture. To me it signals anger or resentment, especially when coupled with a stern facial expression. You've probably seen the look before, feet shoulder width apart (or wider), shoulders back, hands placed firmly on hips, and an angry expression on the face. This pose makes the body appear very wide; just as a puffer fish makes itself appear larger when threatened, we humans do the same thing. Of course if the facial expression is different, then this pose can mean other things as well. If the facial expression is happy and the hands are on the hips, this can signal bemusement. If the expression is sad, then this coupled with hands on the hips can express disappointment. I suppose that I can more easily see a female using this body language than a male, but that is probably because females tend to display their emotions much more transparently than males in general.

How do I stand? Well, I rarely have both hands on my hips, unless I'm trying to communicate anger or one of the other emotions that I talked about above. My normal neutral stance is both hands (or just the thumbs) placed in my pockets, no facial expression, and both legs fairly close together, but with all of my weight on one leg (I alternate legs as they tire). Hmmm, it seems my stance is similar to your stance described here:

The other, similar, male gesture you see is the thumbs hooked into the pockets of the jeans (or belt loops if you’re more...rural), framing the belt buckle (how big is yours?) and/or package in a transparent display of male potency. I understand. You aren’t someone I can talk to about skirt lengths – have you ever met a fairy before? Gotcha...
Does that mean that I'm not someone who you can talk to about skirt lengths? Well, if you're someone who's going to judge me to be a testosterone fueled gay-bashing narrow-minded jerk just because I hook my thumbs in my pockets, then you bet I don't want to talk to you, regardless of whether you're a crossdresser or the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. And when I display effeminate gestures (such as putting my hands in my back pockets), am I doing it to tell all the "manly men" around me that I'm not one of them? No! I do it because it is part of me, but that doesn't mean that I don't talk to such "manly men." Frankly, I'm surprised how much your post speaks of stereotyping and discriminating against men who carry themselves in a certain way. With a mindset like that, you're displaying a mindset similar to the occasional cashier who remarks "Have a nice day... SIR!" to one of us.

[Kathi Lake]

With me, it's not so much the hands on hips stance. Like Sara, there's more. I have been described as "fluttery" as my hands are more in motion than an Italian girl when speaking. I stand with my feet in classic "model" pose - one foot straight out, the other cocked behind at a 45-degree angle. My legs are open rarely when I sit, and usually single or double-crossed. The most telling mannerism, to me, is the way I walk. I usually catch myself walking with one arm with the forearm parallel to the floor, and my hand dangling limp-wristedly. It is a decidly non-masculine looking way to walk. My opinion? Whatever. I'm kind of sone with the whole dichotomy thing, where I have to look and act one way as a guy and a noter way as a girl. I'm kind of neither. I'm me .I will, therefore, act like me.

Kathi

[Shananigans]

Classic sorority girl pose...One hand on the hip and the other around your sister. I think 90% of my pics with my girlfriends are with us in this pose.

Both hands on the hips seems a little unapproachable. One hand on the hip makes you appear open, confidant, and accentuates your girlish figure.

[dilane]

I'm out running or hiking on trails an hour or two daily, and I see many women put their hands on their hips when they stop for a rest. I think it's easier to catch your breath with your arms supported that way.

I see many more women doing this than men, at least in the outdoor world.

I notice that only women put the thumbs forward when standing arms akimbo (that's a fancy way of saying hands on hips).

[Byanca]

I sometimes walk with my hands on my hip, or waist, if I'm tired. And try to straighten up. This helps with getting elbows and shoulders back, the hip is the natural place to put the hands.

I generally prefer to have elbows tight to the body. Always did. With the rest of the hands more pointing outwards.

Legs I like to stick my hip out if standing and rest the weight here. The other leg moving about some. Often also just with one foot in front of the other, like balancing.

So a little bit different things. Don't think I have set patterns.

[Helen_Highwater]

It aways used to be if you caught your (male) friend standing with one hand on his hip to ask, "Oi, what happened to your roll of carpet?"

[SusieK]

I've never really thought about it deeply before, but isn't the 'traditional' male hands on hips stance symmetrical with both legs straight and shoulder width apart, whereas the female version is with one supporting leg and one 'play' leg as it is referred to in an earlier post? I'm certainly aware of the wider female hip shelf being used for example to support a young child, whereas for most men this would be completely impractical.

Did this thread make anyone else stand up and start playing around with stances to try and see which ones felt comfortable, natural, masculine or feminine?

dilane, you may have a point with the thumbs forward thing. Don't know what it means though:idontknow:

I can see the asymmetric version being effective for a woman being stern and telling someone off, whereas for a man it would be taken less seriously (just going with the stereotypes and saying how it is, I don't make the rules:))

Susie

[PuniPuni]

I'd forgotten I had hips until I saw this thread! I don't think I've ever known anyone, male or female, who does that. We kids all seem to just cross our arms these days. =P

[busker]

Well, I might be incorrect remembering Wayne very often walked one hand on hip--"well, pardner? and I certain of having seen a photo of JFK, one hand on hip. Could be a 40- 50's thing!
Though I don't remember my father doing the hands on hip routine, he was born just before the First World War and men were different in so many ways. I have had one hand on hip but that hip was inward and the hand for balance, but I'm also certain that I probably saw it before I used it . If I ever had two hands on hips, it would have been more confrontational though I'm generally not that way.
I' m a war baby, so I think a lot of influence came from movies and it could be that the general population was more exposed to "feminine" gestures both from women and from gay actors (of course, we didn't know they were gay). I have mostly always sat in a chair with my legs crossed knee over knee and only sometimes when my legs are stretched out do I cross at the ankles. Crossing your legs ankle over ankle relieves the pressure on your lower back so it is a good thing. As for crushing the "package" mine is succinct enough not to be crushed. Often times when I am in skirt mode, I find myself legs wide open, especially when I'm concentrating on something and the S-word is often out of my lips when I catch myself.
Getting rid of some male habits is just tough.
The problem with what to do with hands is a long standing one and if you look, for example, at books on photographing people, it is always a concern what to do with hands. Of course, studying the great portrait photographers, one has a ready teacher. Fortunately, for us, most of the really interesting photos are of women, so we will get a good lesson in presentation. William Mortenson (How to pose the Model (1956) spends quite a lot of time going over errors in posing with hands, legs and feet. One could hardly go wrong basing their "display" on his work. Over all, I think that a lot of gestures are generational and what is accepted now was certainly not when I grew up.

[Byanca]

With skirt I cross my legs while sitting(especially with something short). With pants with knees together.

[Sophie86]

The more I think about it, the more I think that the hands on hips thing is wrong. Certainly, walking with both hands on the hips, elbows swinging, is totally female, but just standing around bored or pissed off with hands on hips is a male stance. Even resting one hand on hip is something that I've seen masculine guys do. Thumbs forward would be very rare, but it's a stance I've seen men use in older movies. Fingers forward or knuckles pressed into hips is more usual.

[Stephenie S]

My mother taught me that women put their hands on their hips with the finger pointing BACK, thumb in front. Men put their hands on their hips with the fingers pointing forward, thumbs in back.

I would not put much faith in this. My mother taught me many things that are out of date now. Like a lady does NOT leave the house without her gloves. A lady ALWAYS wears a slip. A lady NEVER wears jeans. She cleaned the house in heels.

S

[Tima]

Frankly, I'm surprised how much your post speaks of stereotyping and discriminating against men who carry themselves in a certain way.

That’s a bit harsh, don’t you think? We are the ones who are being discriminated against, and don’t forget it. If you’re “alternative” in some small way, such as crossdressing, or gay (like I am), it pays to be on the lookout for anyone who may do you harm. Not all manly males are looking for victims, but take it from me, it only makes sense to exercise caution. There is a thing called the pack mentality, you know. Gestures can tell a lot about what you’re up against. Males project their masculinity out there for all to see, and it’s not meant to be an invitation for talking about feelings. In case you haven’t noticed, the phrase, “What are you, a pussy?" Is on the lips of most men you will encounter, and it is either spoken or formed in the mind at the slightest indication of anything remotely sensitive. Men carry themselves a certain way because they feel they must, in an obvious attempt to fit in and appear secure in their masculinity. The OP only hints at what is going on out there. We are at risk, and any feminine characteristics we may enjoy are not tolerated by visible proponents of masculinity.

[Frédérique]

I was thinking today about my father, and his group of fireman friends. Whenever they would get together, these overtly masculine males would stand near each other and talk about the location of certain fire hydrants – I’m not kidding. If I was near the action, I would pick up a not-too-subtle message of male insecurity. How? Well, I could hear it. The men would have their hands in their pockets, jingling their change loudly, somewhere quite near the...well, you know. These men never crossed their arms, never put their hands on their hips, but the cacophony of clanking coins said it all in terms of gesture. Another thinly disguised male “comparison” ritual, usually accompanied by frequent unnecessary spitting. I didn’t want to be, but I was THERE...


(how do you get those accent symbols?)
Why do you ask these questions on a lazy Sunday morning?

The accents can be found in the character map (System Tools), my dear, along with: £æ¾¶¥ç©§¬±÷°¹öߢ and a few others, so just copy and paste. I write these things on a PC...
To answer your second question, I was literally standing, hands placed on hips, talking to my sister, and I became aware of that gesture and it’s...significance. As they say here in the U.S., I couldn’t NOT write about it! These questions fill my mind at all times...


Well, I had to read the post several times before I realized what the questions were.

Could you fill me in? I actually come here to entertain, or discuss, and not be too...serious...:heehee:


With a mindset like that...

I don’t hate masculine men, I just do not wish to be one of them. I’ll give you an example. I like Henry Rollins, and he’s 100% masculine, no doubt about it. His arms are folded across his chest, of course, as if on cue. What's he telling me? He’s small, but muscular, exhibiting a tough exterior in public at all times. He looks the part, whatever that may be. But, here’s the rub – he’s well read, thinks about things, understands art, is a good bit towards the left, admires common sense, speaks eloquently, is self-deprecating, and generally is someone I would enjoy talking to. If I was sitting across from him one-on-one and told him I was a crossdresser, I would expect him to pause, grimace, suppress a smirk, then lean forward and attempt to understand where I was coming from. And he would listen to what I said, even though he wouldn’t be comfortable with it, at least initially. We would share a laugh, I’m sure, but he would express some understanding about my “community,” and sound sincere doing it. So, not all men are the same, but masculinity is certainly being projected via body language most of the time, if only for purposes of attraction, to put people at ease, or to alert others to potential danger via conflict…

[Kathi Lake]

how do you get those accent symbols?If you have a Mac, it's easy! Simply hold down the Option key, type the letter you want and then the letter again.

Kathi

[Sophie86]

Projecting masculinity -- I don't see how that is a bad thing. Is it bad for a woman to accentuate the sway of her hips by walking with her hands on them? Men have a right to exude sexuality as much as women do, and there's nothing wrong with traditional masculine qualities. The problem lies in thinking that we can be complete people while adopting only the traits traditionally associated with masculinity, and villifying those who cross the line.

Henry Rollins -- I think Henry Rollins would be even cooler about it than that. He's projecting very masculine these days, but the one time I saw him in person he was wearing nothing but a pair of cutoff jean short-shorts and had lovely long black hair. He had a very lean body--masculine, but not muscle bound--and his body language was very androgynous.

Accent Characters -- Another way to get them is by holding down the alt key and typing the ascii decimal code. For example, the é is alt + 130. See this table (http://www.asciitable.com/)for others.

[Elaine Michelle]

Okay. Look at my avatar. If you say I am not feminine, I am gonna smack you up side of the head!! Why, I'll wrastle you to the ground and turn you ever which way but loose! (elaine does her best Ellie May Clampett imitation)

elaine :battingeyelashes:

[Nick2Nikki]

That’s a bit harsh, don’t you think? We are the ones who are being discriminated against, and don’t forget it.

My point is that the OP's post was discriminating against masculine men, the same type of discrimination that we may (or may not) experience at the hands of others. And in this case, we are not the group being discriminated against, it was one of us (the OP) doing the discriminating. Maybe Frederique didn't mean for her post to sound as negative as I perceived it to be, but it was. I am a transvestite, but I am also a manly man, and I don't like seeing either group discriminate against the other.


The men would have their hands in their pockets, jingling their change loudly, somewhere quite near the...well, you know. These men never crossed their arms, never put their hands on their hips, but the cacophony of clanking coins said it all in terms of gesture. Another thinly disguised male “comparison” ritual, usually accompanied by frequent unnecessary spitting. I didn’t want to be, but I was THERE...

I think that you're reading too much into the proximity of the penis to the front pockets in jeans. Putting your hands in your pockets makes it easy to relax, as your arms are supported by both your shoulders and your pants. It's a very natural stance; playing with the change in your pocket is a natural way to keep your hands busy, just like how some girls might play with their hair when bored. This is not a "thinly disguised comparison ritual."

As Freud would say, "Sometimes putting your hands in your pockets is just putting your hands in your pockets (and usually is)."

[Kathi Lake]

Oh Nick, Nick, Nick. I like you. You're funny!

:)

Kathi

[eluuzion]

Lions, and tigers, and bears! Oh, my! ....

Proxemics, haptics, oculesics, kinesics, and olfactics! Oh, my! …:eek:

Proxemics
-Psychology and Linguistics study of the spatial requirements of humans and animals.
Haptics
- the branch of psychology that investigates cutaneous sense data (touch)
Oculesics
-the use of the eyes in communication.
Kinesics
–the study of body movements, gestures, facial expressions, etc.,
Olfactics
-the sense of smell (odors) and how it affects communication.

It’s called “body language”. I have studied it extensively in psychology courses, and employed it as a communication tool for years. If you want to “read” people, learn to recognize non-verbal cues and communication.

There is a “rule” commonly referred to as the “7%-38%-55% rule” in psychology, presented by a guy named Albert Mehrabian (Professor of Psychology).
According to his findings, in all instances of face to face communication, the way we communicate is broken down into 7% through spoken words, 38% through voice tone and a staggering 55% via communication body language. My personal belief it that the 55% is too low.

We all use it to unconsciously “signal” what we are really thinking and feeling inside. Most of us “react” to some of these signals without really realizing what we are doing. For those of us who have learned to recognize, understand, and decipher these non-verbal “cues”, it is a powerful tool in “reading” and understanding people in face-to-face communications.

A few “waist/pelvic” cues…for fun...

-When the person is standing with hands on his or her hips, this indicates a certain amount of aggression or readiness. People angle their pelvis toward people they like.

-One of the “sexiest” signs a woman can give is to sit with one leg pressed on top of the other. A hand on the thigh seals the deal as a scream for attraction and admiration from others around her.

-Guys want to maximize their “physical size and appearance” (occupy more personal space). So they talk a wide stance with legs, stand as high as possible, tilt their head, and if they are smart (flirting)…hook their thumbs behind their belt-loops or hook them in the top of front pockets of jeans. (fingers point down and “framing” genitals).

-Women typically minimize the physical space their bodies occupy. (tiny and fragile). So they tend to keep elbows close to sides, legs together, etc. However, standing & leaning with weight on back leg, extending front leg, having one hand perched on back of waist (almost “pushing” it forward) as they tilt head, expose neck and inner wrist…a guy would have to be blind not to notice the “flirting” cues.:drooling:

There are a myriad of “cues” and “signals” displayed by the person you are talking to. It is easy to recognize lying, emotions, and definitely what is “real” and “deception” in the person you face. (if you are aware of what to look for).

Anyone can learn the cues if they are willing to put in the time. In my opinion, it is an invaluable skill for crossdressing and “passing” (whatever that term really means, :heehee:).

[donnalee]

Frederique, (how do you get those accent symbols?),

Why is hands on hips feminine? After all, I have seen a lot of Errol Flynn movies with stereotypical male sword fights with hand on hip (presumably also for balance).


To keep the unused hand from getting cut, I suspect. :D

[Patricia Jane]

You always have such interesting and confortational comments. They are always so thought provoking.

[GingerLeigh]

"...I'm a little teapot, short and stout..."
I never really thought about having your hands on the hip as a feminine thing. I see many men do it, including SUPERMAN as someone else pointed out. Maybe its where the thumb is positioned, ie: in the front as opposed to the back of the torso which gives it more of a feminine appearance.
At work I once sat with my legs crossed "ladylike" and it was quickly condemned by my coworkers. Ironically some of them sit that way as well but nothing gets mentioned. My wife pointed it out once too, oddly she had her legs crossed in a masculine manner while teasing me. People are strange.

Ginger

[Proteus]

I do it quite a lot. Both hands on hips, even footed. I think I do it when I take a step back to examine a situation, perhaps a bit assertive, but still relaxed and receptive. I think that's more masculine than feminine.

One hand, and the weight on one leg, or crossed legs, is definitely feminine, though. I kind of like it, I think I'll do that when en femme. It's fun to be kinesthetically "bilingual"!

[7sisters]

Your momma was a wise lady. You know there is logic to what she says. Women standing with hands on hips and fingers pointed back makes their cleavage stand out even more. I got this tip on a TV series on dating and bodylanguage.

[Sarasometimes]

Mannerisms is a bigger part of passing than having your outfit perfect. I walk with my elbowin veryclose to my bodyand my hands and wrists out a bit with a bent elbow. I may turn my rists down as well. The hand on hip pose that I sometimes use is either with myfingers pointing up and the back of my hadn on my one hip in an asymetrical pose (one hip out a bit and my feet at angles to each other) or with my palm on my hip and thumb forward. The big thing I try to avoid is the appearance of strength or solidness. A narrow stance, shoulders back, maybe a finger pointing out, like a pinky. I once was told, woman pass through a space men possess it. I was reading an older deportment articlethat said woman should never cross their legs at the knees when wearing skirts or dresses? Only at the ankles? What do you girls think of that? This is a great thread.

[Frédérique]

I am a transvestite, but I am also a manly man…

Not to be rude, or go off topic, but how do you pull that one off? I can’t imagine the internal conflict going on – on one hand you like dressing up (like me), while on the other hand you’d really enjoy beating me up for being queer. Correct me if I’m wrong (I mean, don’t stop now), but keep in mind that I’m your sister. I would add, “And I love you,” but I get the distinct feeling you don’t like me, or won’t like me, no matter what I say…
:straightface:


…playing with the change in your pocket is a natural way to keep your hands busy, just like how some girls might play with their hair when bored. This is not a "thinly disguised comparison ritual."

I beg to differ, my dear. If you can’t put two and two together, then you need to look in the mirror, make a personal decision about gender, and understand the body language you are at odds with. Keeping your male hands busy is, in itself, a thinly disguised comparison ritual – I stand by those words, arms folded across my chest, of course...
:kiss:

[donnalee]

You always have such interesting and confortational comments. They are always so thought provoking.

Thank you. You were talking to me; weren't you? Were you talking to me? Were you talking to ME? BECAUSE I DON'T SEE ANYONE ELSE HERE - oh - wait a minute - uh - never mind.
(with apologies to Robert DiNiro.) :o

[Karren H]

Depends on if its your hands or someone elses??

Most men don't have hips so by default it has to be mainly feminine. Alternately..... hands on beer gut would be mainly masculine....

[Sophie86]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="2"]I can’t imagine the internal conflict going on – on one hand you like dressing up (like me), while on the other hand you’d really enjoy beating me up for being queer.

Is that what it means to be manly? Wanting to beat up queers...?

[NicoleScott]

Is that what it means to be manly? Wanting to beat up queers...?

Sadly, Sophie, some people think just that.

When I saw the topic, what immediately came to mind was photos of other cd's. I like to see pics of other cd's. I've seen cd's with beautiful faces perfectly made up, and having nice shapely bodies elegantly dressed. BUT, the pose (often with hands on hips and legs apart) scream GUY!! I took a video of myself walking, runway style, trying to show off and act feminine for the camera. I did not like what I saw (GUY WALKING!). Some of us need work, me included.

[Fab Karen]

There's a scene in the movie "In & Out" related to this topic.:heehee:

[Nick2Nikki]

Not to be rude, or go off topic, but how do you pull that one off? I can’t imagine the internal conflict going on – on one hand you like dressing up (like me), while on the other hand you’d really enjoy beating me up for being queer....

You and I obviously have entirely different definitions of what a "manly man" is. I consider a manly man to be a man who is competitive, likes sports, is good with his hands, jokes around with his buddies, chases girls, or any combination of these sorts of attributes (I personally do not meet all of these criteria), i.e.: the stereotypical masculine male. You, on the other hand, seem to think that manly man is a synonym for violent queer-bashing homophobe. I sure would have some problems if I was your sort of manly man--but I'm not; I am just a manly man.


I beg to differ, my dear...

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I know I'm right, and you know you're right. (Unfortunately, I'm the only one who's actually right. All the time.:tongueout)


Oh Nick, Nick, Nick. I like you. You're funny!

One does try. :)

[AKAMichelle]

feminine

[Tima]

I know I'm right, and you know you're right. (Unfortunately, I'm the only one who's actually right. All the time. )

:sigh: How childish. In this case, you’re dead wrong.


feminine

I think it’s a feminine gesture, too. I usually have my hands on my hips, but I never really thought about it much until now. My skirts and dresses have no pockets, and I can’t cross my arms across my chest because that would hide my breastforms!
:)

[Nick2Nikki]

Just to clear things up, the following was meant to be read as sarcasm (I thought that the smiley face communicated that, but I was obviously wrong):


(Unfortunately, I'm the only one who's actually right. All the time.:tongueout)

Sorry for the confusion!

[flatlander_48]

Do you put your hands on your hips anymore?

My interpretation is that if you put your hands on your hips, which way your fingers point used to be aligned with gender. If your fingers pointed forwards and your thumbs pointed rearward, that indicated a masculine orientation. Fingers pointed rearwards leaned towards the feminine.

[eluuzion]

‘What we see depends mainly on what we are looking for.’
— John Lubbock

Body language is a universal language. Generally speaking, human beings all have equal capacity to display physical gestures and “cues”, whether they are female or male.

-Gestures all have somewhat of a “neutrally” defined meaning prior to considering the circumstances or person displaying them. (arms crossed across chest = “closed”).

Both males and females equally display -Some gestures. Some gestures are displayed more often or are primarily specific to one gender over the other.

-Gestures or “cues” are rarely displayed in isolation. They are typically displayed in “clusters” (groups of cues from different parts of the body that simultaneously combine to send a non-verbal “message” about the person’s emotional and/or cognitive status).

-Each of us exhibits a set of personal or “base” (baseline) gestures, movements, “tics” and expressions that we adopt which are unique, but a part of our typical “routine” when we interact with others.
For example, a subject is asked a series of specific questions prior to a lie detector test being conducted. The purpose is to establish a “baseline” (determine what characteristics are “normal” responses for that individual, and therefore have no specific “meaning” relevant in interpreting truth or deception in that individual. So they should be disregarded.) The same concept applies to body language.

-Gestures and cues must be analyzed within the context and atmosphere in which they are displayed. (arms crossed across the chest in a snowstorm may simply be an effort to stay warm.)

So just like other forms of communication, the sender and receiver always have the potential to confuse, deceive or misinterpret what is being exchanged. It has a lot to do with perceptions, as well as the people and circumstances that are present at the time of the exchange.

Correct interpretation of “body language” is not an “exact science”…it is more of an “art”. It takes time and practice to become accurate reading it, just like other skills.

It appeared to me that there were a few “exchanges” in this thread that seemed to imply there are “absolute” definitions/meanings for specific (waist) cues and gestures. That is an exercise in futility, as there are no “absolutes” to any specific cues when interpreting body language.

Just thought it might be helpful to mention that…:hugs:

I have noticed that facts, opinions, perceptions, fantasies and reality have the tendency to easily displace each other in Internet forum discourse… :confused: (just my opinion…)

:love:

[Kathryn Martin]

You and I obviously have entirely different definitions of what a "manly man" is. I consider a manly man to be a man who is competitive, likes sports, is good with his hands, jokes around with his buddies, chases girls, or any combination of these sorts of attributes (I personally do not meet all of these criteria), i.e.: the stereotypical masculine male. You, on the other hand, seem to think that manly man is a synonym for violent queer-bashing homophobe. I sure would have some problems if I was your sort of manly man--but I'm not; I am just a manly man.

When is the last time you showed up in competition, or to a sports event in girly clothes? Tell me do you really think women are not good with their hands? How many times in the last few years did you call your buddies when joking around, on jokes that had a transgendered person in it, or when they called someone fag, sissy etc? Have you told them of your enjoyment of wearing a woman's clothes?

In any event are the "attributes" you mention really what makes a man manly? My definition of a manly is someone who educates himself, is aware of the world around him, does not use his strength to bash the weaker, is considerate of those in need when he has plenty, is strong in his character, stoic in the carriage of his burdens and always impeccably polite and entirely capable to fend of any comers. All the others are, with respect, just boys that have refused to grow up.

Having said the above, there are many reasons that men can have their hands on their hips. John Wayne usually had them there with thumbs pointing forward because his back hurt and he needed to support himself.:D

But more generally, there is a quality to female movement, and gestures, that unequivocally will be feminine rather masculine. And men notice and as Freddy says, they too recognize that you are not one of them.

[GingerLeigh]

[QUOTE=eluuzion;2276735]‘What we see depends mainly on what we are looking for.’
— John Lubbock

Once again, eluuzion hits it right on the head (or is that the hand or hip?). People see what they're looking for. If you're already under suspicion, or exhibit other feminine qualities they will think anything you do is girly regardless of your size, stature or activities.

Ppppllllbhhh. Am I a manly man? As a crossdresser, I'm probably not considered one. I'm a strong loving father and husband, is that manly? I despise intolerance and violent behavior. Does that make me a girly man?
Everyone has their own interpretation of what a manly man is. It could be a good thing or a bad thing.
I've always thought a manly man is a boorish egocentric jock that makes everything a competition. He is one that enjoys belittling weaker people to elevate his status as the alpha male. He is the extreme male where he twists and contorts all male qualities into blurred aggression and recklessness.
I guess my interpretation of a manly man isn't a good one, but there are those who disagree and that's fine. As I said, it could be a good thing or a bad thing. Not everyone interprets it the same.


Ginger

[Hope]

About a year or so ago I was at church on a Sunday, all dressed in my clergy black, standing around with a bunch of the farmers talking about combines or something equally dull. And I decided I wanted to see what the reaction would be if I were to swap out my guy posture and comportment, for my girl posture and comportment. I tried this a few times. The differences in posture and comportment are subtle, but the reaction is usually the same - an uneasiness in the conversation, followed by a long pause, and then a disbanding of the group of guys. If you do it in a mixed gender group, the guys will all duck out and the girls will remain and continue to talk.

You have to realize that both guys and girls cross their arms and put their hands on their hips (and probably most other gestures) - but they do it differently. When a guy crosses his arms over his chest, he puts his fists under his forearms and looks strait ahead like he is trying to convince you that he would be pleased to pummel you if need be. Which is of course exactly what the pose asserts. A woman on the other hand is trying to look small and non-confrontational and non-threatening. When she crosses her arms, you can see her hands, they are cupped around the elbow, (and because her forearm is generally shorter in relation to her body) her arms are framing her bosom, and her head is tilted in a relaxed non threatening posture.

Look at the way a guy puts his hands on his hips. When the guy does it he is trying to look bigger and more imposing - it is fingers forward, elbows out, chest out, hips square, looking like he is in confident command of all he surveys. When a woman does it (unless it is a mother scolding her children - which is a totally different pose) she is again trying to look smaller and non-threatening. the thumb is forward so that the vulnerable inside of the elbow and forearm are exposed, the elbow is actually pushed back (to minimize the amount of space she is taking up) and often only one arm is on her hip, the other one is dangling by her side and her hip is rotated and or cocked.

Foot placement is the same way. Men typically stand with their feet shoulder width apart, ready to react to whatever threat they see, or ready to launch some sort of offensive action when they need to. Women on the other hand stand with their feet together, toes pointing strait ahead which rotates the femur in the hip socket to help her keep her knees together and take up less space and be less imposing. Or she will stand with her weight on one foot, and put the tip of the other one down behind her if she is feeling flirty, or perhaps if she is interested in what is happening the other foot might get placed in front of the first one.

It's not that guys do this and girls don't... it's that guys do this, this way, and girls do it that way. And if you send cross gender cues like this in the wrong persona, it freaks people out.

[Tima]

I'm not actually that arrogant... just that sarcastic.

Just one more thing about this. Your very revealing sentence did not read as sarcasm. If that was your intention, you failed to convey that notion. I think that you meant it, because you feel this way. I know your kind. You were just stating your position that you feel superior to anyone else with an opinion. If you wanted to be sarcastic, you should have said, “I’m being sarcastic, you know,” or “I’m just kidding.” The smilie you chose says it all -- you’re taunting someone for a reaction. Tell me this – why would you wish to be sarcastic in the first place? This is supposed to be a supportive site for transgendered people, isn’t it? I don’t see the point of rubbing everyone’s face in their purported inferiority, simply because some of us can interpret gestures, or words, for the sinister meanings they carry, all for the benefit of our collective health and safety. You should think before you submit anything, just as the author of this thread so eloquently did.

I haven’t been around here too long, but, frankly, I’m a little unnerved by the presence of crossdressing masculine men roaming the playground, bullying the others with sarcastic words. I came here to learn more about crossdressing, specifically by reading the words on offer from males of the female persuasion. I’ve already met many thoughtful, sensitive people in touch with their emotions. This is heartwarming. I just knew they were out there somewhere. However, I never expected to find manly males here, and that is somewhat disheartening, because I’ve been on the receiving of a lot of unwarranted harassment. Maybe someone can explain to me how a 100% male can crossdress in the first place, or, more accurately, why they would do so? How can you turn towards the feminine, time and time again, and then return to your male world as if nothing has happened? Surely one would pick up a little more female each time, modifying a staunchly male personality into something different or better? It takes all kinds, I suppose, but I’m a bit bewildered. Is it only a sexual thing? Maybe this has been discussed before. In my estimation it’s tough to be queer, and queer to be tough.

By the way, here’s a GG emoticon with hands on hips: :gg:

[janice murray]

two hips two hands.

[t-girlxsophie]

I do sometimes catch myself standing hands on hips,but its never compelled me to swiftly alter my stance.I think it would have to be very pronounced,for the public to wonder about you.Most guys these days are more likely to be seen holding up the nearest wall,hands in pockets looking slovenly and lazy.I would rather look more feminine than looking like i was bone idle

:hugs:Sophie xx