Do you identify with your mother?

[Frédérique]

“Thou callest me effeminate, for I love women’s joys” (Donne)

Don’t we all? I’m reading again, and I came across these words in the book The Construction of Homosexuality by David F. Greenberg. Even though they’re meant to explain or put forth certain conditions for the development of homosexuality (hence the “construction” in the title), I couldn’t help but think about how they might also contribute to the development of crossdressing in young boys, or males in general. Personally, I feel you’re born with these proclivities, but let’s see what the author says:

“One way gender identification develops is through modeling, or imitation of adults – whether or not they are of the same sex as the infant. Children cannot identify with their father when he is away from the household during most of the hours they are awake. On the other hand, identification with the mother (or her surrogate) is encouraged when it is she who takes care of all the infant’s needs.
It has been considered important in almost all societies for boys to grow up thinking of themselves as male, as so many aspects of life have hinged on a person’s gender. Thus small boys must relinquish their initial female identification and acquire a male identity if they are to live a life that is considered normal for persons of their sex. In extreme cases the transition is never made, and the boy grows up thinking of himself as a female trapped in a male body, a transsexual.
Most boys [however] manage the transition. Their fathers are usually not altogether absent; and when they are, other adult males may substitute. Mothers can encourage male children to think of themselves as male and to behave in ways they define as masculine. However, much research on the development of gender identities suggests that when a boy abandons a primary identification with his mother and acquires a male identity, a residual female identity remains latent.”

OK – do you buy this concept of a residual female identity? It’s hard to write this and not trot out another wordy installment of “My Story,” so I will try to be as brief as I can...

I was relatively young when my mother died (from breast cancer), and her death left a huge void in my life. My older sister took on her role, which she hadn’t prepared for, and she soon sought out a reason to leave and did so. That left me caring for my aging father (I was born late in my parent’s lives) all by myself. This is when my crossdressing fully developed and flourished. It had been a long time in coming, popping out in my artwork, my explorations into sexuality and clothing, and my embrace of all things alternative. My passionate interest in female faces and figures (and fashion) had been subsumed by the time of my mother’s death, yet within a very brief period I became a living, breathing female figure. Not quite like going from zero to sixty, mind you, but more like removing all restraints on my latent true self. As such, I went from a world of daydreams to full-fledged transvestism in no time. I didn’t dress to look like my mother in any way, nor did I consciously think I was filling a void by becoming as much of a female as I could. It just happened, and I’m glad it did...

A “latent” female inside me makes a certain amount of sense – I can see how that might happen, but I distrust experts and their need to explain things I take for granted (and hold dear). It was especially traumatic when my mother died, because we were very close. She was my sympathetic ear, my shoulder to cry on, and she sheltered me to a certain degree. We used to go shopping together all the time, visit relatives, and generally talk about everything under the sun, while my relatively shy and insecure (yet tough) father kept in the background. It was odd to wind up caring for him as I did, sometimes crossdressing in the next room while he slept or watched TV! Of course, he also experienced a huge void when my mother passed, but, like many of his generation, he never talked to me about it...

Whenever I have a strong, close female presence in my life, crossdressing goes on the back burner. It never disappears entirely. Right now, I’m in a personal period of rediscovery via information and my contacts with the transgendered community, in books and on this site (via discussion with my peers). I live with my older sister (mentioned above) these days, but the situation is different and complex. Maybe that’s just because I’m older now. My mother lives in me, in fact I can claim to actually be her in many ways – of her three children, I am most like her in appearance, and I have inherited all of her intolerance for certain substances, rudeness, confrontation, and pointless violence. This comes out in what I submit here each and every day, so thanks for reading my seemingly random thoughts. Needless to say, my mother would not have approved of my crossdressing, but, as they say, she’s simply not here anymore. Or is she?
:thinking:

In conclusion, what do you think about this idea of a latent female being present inside of us? More specifically, do you identify with your mother, and wonder about the effect it has had on your own crossdressing?

[docrobbysherry]

No, I don't, and I never have. She's 97 now. So, even having a coherent conversation is VERY difficult! Never have with my sis either!
I'm THRILLED for u that DO, tho!

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Hmmm, very interesting. You certainly have done some research on the subject and your personal questioning and reasoning on cross dressing certainly provokes thought. Maybe you subconsciously replaced your mother and sister to take on their roles to satisfy your own loss. Maybe we become female in our own eyes to satisfy our own needs in seeing that there is a feminine void in our life as to what we personally believe a female to be? In order to fill this void, we become our own ideal female? Hmmm very interesting. Maybe we were surrounded by females in our early years and the Maleness had taken over when our female friends formed there own social grouping leaving men to form there own groups in which some of us did not really want to take part in, but because of social rules we had to begin the man trip. Hmmmm very interesting, but if one questions oneself too much, one may begin to criticize oneself revealing faults that should really be left alone and the beauty in living is overcome by questioning ones own existence. Thank you for the thought provoking idea.

[sissystephanie]

I started wearing my sisters panties somewhere between age 6 and 7. My mother died when I was 7, and my dad (age 69 then) raised my sister and I with help from my grandmother. He never knew that was a CD. Grandmother lived very close by, and we played in her backyard a lot. Grandma had saved a lot her daughters clothes and often I was wearing those clothes to play in! Of course, I liked wearing dresses even then.

Wearing those clothes probably played a big influence on me, but my Mom did not. But she did love me, I know that!!

[Elle1946]

To answer your question NO. I identify with females in general and never had any specific role model.

[Alice Torn]

She is 89 with Alzheimer's, and may still know me when i visit the home. I was told by one nurse, that i look like her. I do seem to look like her in the face some. I was definitely closer to her, than my dad. I have to take care of my dad these days, which is very emotionally hard for me, also having bipolar as i do. I struggled all my life to be a masculine man, but, i never liked the dog eat dog competing men do, though i do like sports some, just not the win at all costs macho competition in sports. I am an emotional, sensitve almost feminine guy, despite my giant size. I am working to integrate the lady and the gentleman, or switch to one or the other, as need arises. I cannot stand the tough guy macho crap in society.

[Cassandra Lynn]

I do agree with your thoughts and assessment Frédérique.
We do parallel somewhat on this subject, in fact i think it all quite rational.
Me and my mother were extremely close. Being the youngest meant i was the last one in the house, so i did spend considerable time with her. But i was close with my dad as well, and he was(is) a good, kind and fair man.

I seem to remember, being especially fond of helping her with the household chores, and remain a neat and clean person today.
Mom was the one who caught me in her clothes on more than one ocassion and kept it secret.

It is easy for me today to say that there was a latent female inside me form an early stage. I also believe that follows in line with the notion that for many of us this gender thing is genetically based.

While we were alike in many ways, including appearance and certain personality traits, i did accept totally the whole idea of what passed as masculinity in our family, as no doubt was learned from my father and brothers.

All very interesting stuff, thanx for bringing it up.
mj (Cassie)

[Hope]

Freudian Bull$hit.

My mother was a horrible person, a tyrant who suffered with borderline personality disorder, and made everyone around her suffer right along with her. Not only do I not identify with her, I go to great lengths to make sure I am not slipping into the programed behaviors I grew up believing were normal.

I think there are many, much better, more research based explanations for transgenderism than some imaginary "latent female identity" based on the model of one's mother.

[janice murray]

Oh yes

[Asako]

I doubt your view this time Frederique. I have so many memories of feminine things I've done and things I've wished for just by the age of 6 that it's unreal. I wouldn't say the "male" is imprinted or learned either. Mom and dad have always tried to teach me to be kind and mindful of others but by no means do I identify with my mom OR dad like that. I recognize that I have received certain personality traits from them, like dad's compulsive curiosity of "How does this work?". However, I think that is just about where the line ends.

[Crissy Kay]

No, My cding has nothing to do with my mom. I dress the opposite of what she ever wore. I dress for myself, for my own reasons.

[andrea35]

yes I think I am like my mother, I always have been very close to her and have more of her personality than my father's and when I dress I kind of look like her when she was young

[Sophie86]

More specifically, do you identify with your mother, and wonder about the effect it has had on your own crossdressing? [/SIZE][/FONT]

Yes.

I remember my early childhood as being an idyllic time. My older sister was in school during the day, and my dad was at work, so it was just Mom and I at the house. She always went around the house singing while she did her chores. Even when I hit three, and my next sister came along, it was still a lot of fun. Mom would read to us and play games when she had the time. Dad often worked late, or stopped off at a local service station to shoot pool and drink beer. On the weekends, he was either hunting, fishing, or working, so he wasn't around a whole bunch.

At some point, Mom put her foot down about that, and Dad started coming home to do his drinking. As he began to take more notice of me, it became very important to me to identify myself with him and make him proud of me. He was never really interested in me for myself though. Instead of him trying to relate to me through my interests, I was supposed to adopt and share his interests. Any softness or girlishness had to be ridiculed out of me. I was bookish, daydreamy, and enjoyed games that required imagination, while he wanted me to be constantly active and good at sports. Hence, we never did quite mesh up. By my teens, I was beginning to reject his way of looking at things, and beginning to re-identify with my mom. Not coincidentally, I'm sure, that was the same time I started to dress.

Unlike some of the others who have posted, there was no absence of feminity in my life. In addition to my mom, I had four sisters; one older and three younger. Probably the reason why I tried for awhile to identify with my dad was because I realized that being male gave him a privileged position in the family. I wanted to be on his "side" in the conflicts that were constantly going on. Eventually, though, I realized that he was something of an asshole, and my mom was a saint for even putting up with him. I really admire my mom's sweetness of temper, patience, and nurturing attitude, but I would never want to martyr myself the way she has. In that, I follow my sisters who, thankfully, grew up to be much more independent, and to expect more from their spouses.

[Kathryn Martin]

“Thou callest me effeminate, for I love women’s joys” (Donne)

My mother lives in me, in fact I can claim to actually be her in many ways – of her three children, I am most like her in appearance, and I have inherited all of her intolerance for certain substances, rudeness, confrontation, and pointless violence. ...... she’s simply not here anymore. Or is she?
:thinking:

In conclusion, what do you think about this idea of a latent female being present inside of us? More specifically, do you identify with your mother, and wonder about the effect it has had on your own crossdressing?

Your description raises the old question whether there is nature or nurture in the works. I believe that Greenbergs analysis on this is somewhat shallow. Once the individual has reached the point where they can address themselves as "I" (usually about three years old) the primary means of of learning through to about the loss of the primary teeth is through imitation. This imitation phase in a child's development is however completely undifferentiated but directly related to exploring what "I" actually means. I believe that genetic girls and boys and transgendered folk of whatever persuasion will experience during this time an affinity that can significantly develop over time. And this is where the relationship between what is predisposed by nature (i.e. the lack of AMH [Anti Muellerian Hormone] in the first 12 weeks of gestation) and nurture (i.e. the environment in which the child grows up) begins. If you grow up in a gender neutral environment, it will be left to the child to locate itself on the gender spectrum. If there is heavy influence by parents and others to play out the birth gender assigned role that location will be determined by outside influences. As I say in my signature, the actual difference between myself and sisters and my mother and I only was fully realized at age 12. Because of it, I believe I didn't have to pay the piper back with a lifetime of pain and feeling I was all wrong.

I, too, was very much like my mother in the more inner personality aspects. In my first years I dreamed alongside my mother (who was a dreamer herself) and her person was a huge influence on my development as a person. My father, while a loving father, disapproved of me, because I was a dreamer. It was difficult for him to fathom this personality aspect. In fact this disapproval in some ways only fell away later in life, because he realized I had made my way.

I am well aware of the intimacy of what you wrote. Thank you for sharing this, it is precious, like the many stories we tell each other. I for one believe that the gathering of these stories will allow for the true nature of us to emerge in the telling.


Freudian Bull$hit.

My mother was a horrible person, a tyrant who suffered with borderline personality disorder, and made everyone around her suffer right along with her. Not only do I not identify with her, I go to great lengths to make sure I am not slipping into the programed behaviors I grew up believing were normal.

I think there are many, much better, more research based explanations for transgenderism than some imaginary "latent female identity" based on the model of one's mother.

Sorry, but if it is bullsh*t at all Hope, it's Jungian bullsh*t. That your mother was a tyrant does not detract from what Freddy experienced. I would grant you that Greenberg's explanation is pretty thin. But the existence of latent identities is clearly a most obvious fact that anyone who observes openly human nature is aware of.

I think that a recognition of an archetype might have a lot to do with into whom we develop.

Kathryn

[Annaliese2010]

Thou callest me effeminate, for I love women’s joys. (Donne)

“One way gender identification develops is through modeling, or imitation of adults... It has been considered important in almost all societies for boys to grow up thinking of themselves as male, as so many aspects of life have hinged on a person’s gender. Thus small boys must relinquish their initial female identification and acquire a male identity if they are to live a life that is considered normal for persons of their sex... However, much research on the development of gender identities suggests that when a boy abandons a primary identification with his mother and acquires a male identity, a residual female identity remains latent.”

OK – do you buy this concept of a residual female identity?This theory makes intuitive sense to me.


I was relatively young when my mother died (from breast cancer), and her death left a huge void in my life. My older sister took on her role, which she hadn’t prepared for, and she soon sought out a reason to leave and did so. That left me caring for my aging father My passionate interest in female faces and figures (and fashion) had been subsumed by the time of my mother’s death, yet within a very brief period I became a living, breathing female figure. I was an adult when my mother died and I too was left caring for an aging father who died several years later. I was too busy at the time to engage my feminine side and it didn't bother nor occur to me to do so.


It was especially traumatic when my mother died, because we were very close. She was my sympathetic ear...while my relatively shy and insecure (yet tough) father kept in the background.Aw, for me too. She was my most bestest trusting friend and my touchstone and ultimate compass. Intelligent, self certain, with a keen sense of rightness for...just about everything, she put it all in proper perspective as I tend to go off to extremes, unnecessarily. This is not oedipal in the least, believe me. She was simply a dynamic caring wonderful person who led by example. My father was very much the same as you describe yours. Of course I was saddened when he died. But it didn't hit me as hard. I was numb to life's tragedies, disillusioned and already lost after she left me down here all alone years before.


Whenever I have a strong, close female presence in my life, crossdressing goes on the back burne.Oh for sure! In fact if I had a girlfriend who was the kind of girl I need to be with it wouldn't even occur to me to CD. I do so now only because I DON'T have a real or true or signifcant connection with any girl presently. More to the point, Annaliese is reactionary to the women who ARE in my life, how they use me betray me and don't value me much in any real way.

In conclusion, I was very close to my mother in ways other siblings were not. I don't think I was her 'favorite' but it didn't much matter. She was a real darling. A real sweetheart. Things about her personality that bothered my siblings, I saw as cute - just...her. Ya know? I mean when there's 99% good why do they attack the 1% THEY didn't like??? I would do anything for her. I'd die myself if it would've saved her. Dark days those. Still am I'm waiting for 'the one' to come along some day to take her place. I shall settle for nothing less!

[Tess]

Good question and I have no idea if my mother's influence led me to crossdressing. I do know that I inherited her gentle disposition. She was a great nurturing mother who I could always come to with problems and my insecurities. My father worked hard on rotating shifts which certainly didn't help his disposition. He also worked a second job and busted his tail around the house when he wasn't working for money. That didn't leave much time to be with the kids except to discipline us. I related a lot more to my father when I hit my late teens and beyond but my crossdressing had already started years before that. No doubt that I spent a lifetime trying to make my father proud even after he had passed away, but underneath I was doing things (like crossdressing) which he would have not have been proud or understood.

[robynanderson]

I can say in many ways my mother may have helped the situation in that because I had some health problems she always was very protective of me and treated me much more feminine than my brother. (the fact that I was small for my age, even for a girl only added to this) I don't know if she meant to but she was perfectly happy with me playing "dress up" and "beauty shop" with my sister because it meant I was not rough housing with the neighborhood boys. Little did she know when we were playing beauty shop I was wearing panties just as often as my sister.

[Sarah Doepner]

Damn, I wish I knew.

It's been 25 years since my mother passed away so many of the memories have faded and it's difficult to come up with specifics beyond those memories I've protected and cherished. Among those are; My father being away a lot leaving my mother and her woman friends to be the only adults in my life, My parents separating and being divorced by the time I was 10 years old - leaving me and my much older brother with Mom, Her clothing being the first I tried on and having her smell to them, My brother never becoming a part of my life until we were both adults, My mother remarrying but only after I'd already started crossdressing, Being told that my nose reminds people of my mother (how can they say such a terrible thing about her?)

I really didn't have a male other than my father to model on, but was repelled by his choices and behavior toward my mother. My attitudes, beliefs and values are hers and not my fathers, so why not my sense of fashion? Why not attempt to emulate and honor her, in some subconsious way?

Or it's possible I was already hard-wired to do this and she was just the source of my clothing before I could get my own. I don't know, but I'd love to credit her for all the good that has come from my crossdressing and none of the bad. The bad stuff is all based on my choices.

[Kerigirl2009]

I can sort of see some of this having an affect on some boys. Although I do not think it is the only answer to that ultimate question of WHY? I have known for some time, ok years that I have wanted to be like my mother strong, independent, loving, beautiful, intelligent but most of all loved. At about the age of 9 I started my journey and it has taken me to places that most men would rather commit suicide than be the way I am.
I am my mother, in certain ways and yes I would love to look more like her too, but mostly I would rather be like her more than look like her. But I think I have come close once to a very similiar resemblance of her. BTW its my avatar. The moment I saw that picture, I just felt so complete and happy and wishing somwone else could have seen me. I even see my sister a bit too.
As far as my father I knew I never wanted to be like him when I was a child, actuallt he was a step father.. He worked hard but he was also a cronic alcholic with a temper. I hated him for that and what it did too us as a family. The funny thing about fathers is I did not meet my biological father until I was 29years old and OMG I am so much like him right down to additude and actions. Wierd huh. (I wonder if he is a crossdresser too) JK

I believe upbringing has a lot to do with how we are and how we want to portray ourselves. So I thank you mom for making me who I am. Yes I am confused some times but she made me who I am today and I love her for it. Now if I could just figure out how to bring the best of both worlds out and make them work better together.

[Frédérique]

I doubt your view this time Frederique.

You are free to do so. I’m merely presenting this theory for purposes of discussion, even though I hijacked Greenberg’s theory and attached it to crossdressing for that very reason. It does, however, make me think about my own particular situation – obviously, yours most likely would vary. I distrust experts on matters of sexuality, but at least some people have thought, or are thinking, about where certain types of behavior originate. In my case, I can see a thread of truth to the idea, or am I just looking for that thread? Perhaps those who didn’t have a female presence to identify with, for one reason or another, seek to create a female identity where none had existed before by actively crossdressing. That sounds equally plausible…


I am well aware of the intimacy of what you wrote.

Speaking of intimacy, another influence on my crossdressing via female identification was my first girlfriend. This was after my mother died. She would consciously avoid overt feminine attire entirely, preferring to dress in female drab, if there is such a thing. My girlfriend was feminine, but not outwardly so, expressed in her choice of clothing and her vocal protests against anything that she was required to do as a woman. Not surprisingly, she completely identified with her father, and talked about him all the time. I still had a feminine void to fill, so my crossdressing flourished during this period…


My father was very much the same as you describe yours. Of course I was saddened when he died.

My sisters didn’t shed a tear at my father’s burial, while I cried myself a river. Even though he could be difficult, I was able to get through to him in his final years and we subsequently enjoyed each other’s presence. I still think about him all the time. He was one of five boys, and out of all that I was the only boy of my generation (I use the term "boy" purely for reference in this instance). Despite this, he let me be me, and I’m grateful…


I really didn't have a male other than my father to model on, but was repelled by his choices and behavior toward my mother.

The type of male behavior I dislike and disassociate myself from originated with my father, his friends, and their acquaintances. I witnessed the effect it had on my mother each and every day, and she was not allowed to speak up at all. It’s just simply a case of liking certain behavior, or a type of person, identifying and empathizing with that person, and seeking to emulate them, consciously or otherwise. I think this concept has merit, and is at the root of some, but not all, crossdressing. Nothing my father said or did ever made me wish to emulate HIM in any way, but at an early age I had already made my life choice…
:battingeyelashes:

[sometimes_miss]

People are always looking for simple solutions to complex problems; this is just another example. The reasons for crossdressing vary, and I'm sure that there will be some people who will admit to strong identification to the female parent as being one of them. On the other hand, there are plenty of us that don't have that particular characteristic, so there goes that theory out the window.

[erika_s]

Not in my case. When I crossdress I ask myself how would have been my deceased sister at my age, and I always choose different clothes and accessories than those of my mother.

[Mary Morgan]

Yes of course I identify with my mother. My father worked very hard, was away alot and seemed in retrospect to be consumed by the role of provider. My mother was always there, always giving encouragement always trying to make my life happy.

[Annaliese2010]

God! Now that I think about it...while my mom always drove me towards success and achievement it was my dad who would sometimes talk to me in a manner that was like...I was a girl not a guy. Don't read into this - he was absolutely a straight-up mans man - strong, kind, supportive and hard working - always behind my mom, pleasing her, letting her run the show, never opposing, sort of in the background of it all, always there when needed and then some. A good provider. A just and moral man of high principles and ethics.

Still...it drove me crazy how he’d sometimes talk to me with the same tone and demeanor he would use when talking to my sister! And he Never spoke this way to my brothers! Even on some occasions using ‘darlin’ or something to that effect – but catching himself before continuing as though he remembered “oops this is my son not daughter”. This drove me CRAZY though I’d never say anything. Ya know…I never felt like I was really IN with my dad & brothers – like I was somehow weird, on the outside, just didn’t fckin fit in – but why?

No, I wasn’t into sports like all them. Okay – so crucify me! I tried though. But like when everyone was gathered round the TV watchin a football game, screamin & hollerin, talking bout this player & that, this play & that, blah blah blah…I effin tried to act knowledgeable, screamed and rooted etc etc… But it’s like they tolerated me – in a kindly way – and I admit I really didn’t know wtf I was saying, LOL.

Was THAT it? I’m not so fcin into spectator sports so my dad saw me as a girl?? LOL… Hell, I wasn’t even CD’ing at the time! I was always somewhat effeminate – but just somewhat for a moment or two by way of gesture or whatever – which I would catch myself & correct right away. Plus I’ve always been ‘cerebral’ or word & speech oriented – intellectual I guess. Maybe THAT is automatically associated with ‘gayness’??? Tell ya what though. I’M NOT GAY GD IT!!! It’s pssy all the way for this guy/girl! IDK & I don’t care now. Moms gone dad too & I purposely & decidedly cut myself off from my siblings – can’t stand any of em. Don’t miss any of em! Only really miss mom – and my dad too. End of story.



sorry for long post

[Cassi3]

I don't identify with my mother at all. Though I lived with her until I was 16, other than forcing us to go to church, she was non-existent in my life. It wasn't until she and my step-father fell on hard times that she started talking and trying to be in my life. And once again, she's non-existent in my life, so no, I don't identify with her at all.

[Tima]

More specifically, do you identify with your mother, and wonder about the effect it has had on your own crossdressing?

For me it’s rather complex. I identify more with my father. He’s a very gentle man. My mother is outgoing, noisy by comparison, and she never lets me be. I’m supposed to be doing this or that, while my father takes a less dominant role. The female presence I identify with is my loving aunt, who is my father’s sister. I’m living with her at the moment. I have to physically detach myself from my mother to maintain my sanity. Growing up, I distinctly recall identifying with my dad, since he worked at home back then, and my aunt, who took care of me while my mother worked at her job. They were always there, like gentle bookends.

My crossdressing just grew out of that, I suppose, but I haven’t really looked into it too much. I don’t recall a period when I wasn’t crossdressing to some degree. My aunt encouraged me to be myself, my father ditto, but my mother wants me to be a boy. That’s two against one. As yet there hasn’t been a void in my life where I once had a woman to identify with. I identify more with free thinkers, and the crossdressing I do is an unconscious expression of that. I wonder if the experts are even aware of these possibilities. I can honestly say I was born a crossdresser.
:battingeyelashes:

[Lucy_Bella]

No but I do need to call her

[Claire Cook]

[I]“
In conclusion, what do you think about this idea of a latent female being present inside of us? More specifically, do you identify with your mother, and wonder about the effect it has had on your own crossdressing?

Oh YESS! I was an only kid, she wanted a daughter but couldn't have more children. She knew I would get into her closet, but could not talk to me about it. She passed away almost 20 years ago and never knew the daughter she really had. Now I wear her wedding ring, and my e-mail name is based on hers (Clara Beatrice). Several times people have said "You look like your mother" (this while en drab) and i took this as a great compliment.