Friendship Heartache

[DanteDonovan]

The heartache that I need some opinions on. :sad:

It involves a friend of mine(we'll call her Jen). We have known each other for 12 yrs-been best friends since the beginning. We never even fought. We'd disagree, but leave it at that. She had her things to go through, I had mine. She moved out of state, kept in touch-she moved back and when I moved out, we still kept in touch. We talked all the time, as if we had only hung out the last weekend. Talk til the phones died. That's how close we are, but some things have changed, and now don't know how to handle things anymore.

I told her about 3 yrs ago now, about my FTM issue. She was surprised for sure, but just took it in stride. Like my other friends/family, asked all the Qs of everything, which I happily answered. So there was no conflict there. But after some months, I noticed she would still call me my "old name". If she said one at all. Obviously making no attempts with this. Every time I would just say "Dante" after she said the other name. She would just skip over it like nothing happened. Even after any long talks to her, patiently explaining on how she needs to start to try.

I would just get "Well it's hard for me too. I'm still trying to get used to this" That's fine, I understand, but don't still use that as a cop-out nearly 3 yrs later. I told her I was getting sick and tired of hearing this excuse from her. Telling her that if she at least says Dante and makes a point of using it, she WILL get used to it eventually, but all she does is avoid it. Only in July on my birthday did she introduce me to people at the club as Dante but I'm sure it's because I was standing right there, and if they came over to me to say hi, and I found she had given them the old name, hell would have risen.

So, I can't really say I've seen an improvement since any other time she would just avoid saying a name at all and just say "Hey hun" more often. Not saying the old name, but avoiding the current. I have even explained to her about the depressions I get and still have-that how when me and my friends went to a gblt club, saw drag kings and queens, I broke down crying and had to go sit down on the side on a couch. But even these talks and admissions still don't seem to make any bit of difference. It's not that she doesn't want to accept it and is in denial, but she doesn't like not being in control of things.

It's because of the type of person I am. She even ripped on me on how it was oh-so-hard for her to get used to it when I haven't shown her any changes. Her trying to make this a television talk show drama on how apparently I have to look, dress, behave like a dude for her to accept it. She refuses to accept that I'll be like I am currently(which is love of fashion, hair, eyeliner/eyeshadow) but be a guy while doing it. She yelled at me on that's not what guys do (mind you she's yelling all this at me over the phone and she has a gay drag queen as a friend) Showing that it's not any type of phobia, but that apparently she has rules for everything and I'm not fitting them. Another reason she won't say my name "because it's not on my id yet" not legal.

The problem now, is I just don't know what to do. I love her so much, she's a great girl she really is, but I'm not just going to sit and be patient for all the yrs until she decides she wants to get around to trying. It's disrespectful to me. I think I've been more than gracious, letting this go 2 3/4 yrs of this. Can't no one say I was impatient or unkind. I want her with me always, I love her deeply, but at the same time, I can't let this go any longer. I don't want to let her have her way on this just to keep her happy. She even had the audacity to call me selfish for wanting her to finally get over it and start trying. If I had said this when only a couple months going on, yeah then I'd deserve it. But not after near 3yrs of patience with her, and even now still won't even say my name, she wants selfish, she needs to look in the mirror.

I'm thinking, as her final chance, that once I start my T and my name is legal she better damn well start trying, and do it quickly, or I will have to just cut ties with her. Thing is, she hasn't changed all this time, will she even bother?

I just don't know what to do. Could be that I might just have to say final goodbyes next yr /::sigh::sad:

[7sisters]

Hi Dante, i hve to assimilate what you said and I will get back with my perspective, soon. I was engaged to a transman, and so I hope I'll be able to give you a clearer picture.

[Adam]

It is hard though when freinds or family do this! i had the same thing with some of my family and i told them years before hand! it was not until i was about a year on T that they even tried to use my new name and gender!

Some people i think just will never understand but give her time still if she is a good freind i am aware you have already given her lots of time but see if she changes her tune once you get your name change

[AllieSF]

Hi Dante. I am sorry for your problems with your best friend. I see that you are more than trying and probably too patient with her refusal to adapt to the new you. I think that some tough love is in order that could eventually result in a break up. Maybe you need to give her a soft ultimatum and advise her that from now on she needs to use your correct name and accept you how you are, a guy with eyeshadow, hair and fashion. That is you and to me it is cool. The soft part of the ultimatum is to give her time to really get with the real world about who you are,. while at the same time coming to realize that you will not put up with her refusal to accept you. So, maybe after the ultimatum, if she doesn't conform during a long phone conversation, you inform her that you will talk to her later andgive her time to decide to pro actively call you Dante. Say goodbye and let her stew in it for a few days, and then call her back as if nothing happened to see if she will adapt that day. Just like in my MtF side where some SO's will apparently never get on board with the program and should just separate to end any unnecessary suffering on both sides. Also, sometimes a prolonged separation (no communication) may help her realize how much she likes you and misses you. I think that she knows that she is the one who needs to change or make a difficult decision and is afraid to do one or the other.

I do wish you the best of luck and hope that she comes around eventually. You seem so happy to have her in your life, and I think that she feels the same but has not learned or made the decision to accept you as you, period.

[7sisters]

From your post, you seem to have almost decided if things don’t change, you will walk. Time will reveal what you have to do, Dante.

I agree with AllieSF’s plan of action.

To be honest, I think Jen may be ‘rebelling’ because she feels she has in some way or the other ‘lost’ her best ‘girl friend’. She’s throwing what seems to be a ‘tantrum’. And people who throw tantrums are basically insecure and scared of being left, abandoned.
She is very scared of loosing you.

I think she is insecure the changes in your life will drive a wedge between both of you.
She sees the changes you are making as you slipping away. Your right about the control thing. But she’s only controlling because she does not want to lose you.

She does not realize her actions are already pushing you apart. You need to make her realize this nicely.

You need to reassure her things will not change between you and her. You’ll just be happier with yourself. And happier with her if she sees you as you wish to be seen
And this will strengthen the bond.

When you talk about ‘love’ is this romantic love for Jen? Or does she fancy you
romantically. If so, she is probably sacred you’ll hitch off with a girl and have a girlfriend and go off with her leaving her alone.

This is my perspective and I've 'presumed' many things while writing this.

[DanteDonovan]

Maybe you need to give her a soft ultimatum and advise her that from now on she needs to use your correct name and accept you how you are, a guy with eyeshadow, hair and fashion.

Unfortunately this has been done to no avail. As far as prolonged absence from her, I don't think it'll do much, since she's the type that likes power and wouldn't go back asking for another chance. She's been screwed over badly in her personal relationships, so she wants total control of where all of her other ones go. So, if there is separation between us, in the end she'll do her best to make it seem that she's the one who wants it that way, and stay that way. And I don't feel like being the one to try little by little to talk again to her after it, as if I'm trying to lure back in with carrots, because then it's not making her behave in any mature fashion as she needs to.

I just moved back into state 2 months ago, we had seen each other 2 times over 4 yrs, just as she had been gone a few. So, she already knows what type of absence that feels like, and it makes me feel uncared for when even though every time we talked and were "ooh i miss you, can't wait to see you again!" and we meet for the vacations and she's so happy and wanting me for herself, that for the sake of her having things go her way and be in control, she would toss me aside so quickly ):

I know these are some of her personal issues too, I accept that, but I'm not going to kiss her behind because of it either.

[DanteDonovan]

Oh, yeah, I love her in the sense of my friend-not lover =d But close enough that when drunk at bars we make out for fun XD I like smooching, can't help it >_>#



To be honest, I think Jen may be ‘rebelling’ because she feels she has in some way or the other ‘lost’ her best ‘girl friend’. She’s throwing what seems to be a ‘tantrum’. And people who throw tantrums are basically insecure and scared of being left, abandoned.
She is very scared of loosing you.

Yes, this is very true, she even told me this herself. "That it feels as if I've lost my sister, that I have to get to know the new Dante" This all while yelling at me over the phone. Thing is, she's saying this when I do a for real putting foot down of things need to change confrontation, after me nicely talking to her about it almost 3 yrs. But all I can think is get over it-it's been how long already? The problem is, she can't get over it, because she won't let it cross her mind at all-so when it does come up, it's like it's still brand new.

I think another incident that hurt me the most, and has made this so confusing, is what had pissed her off the most(why she was yelling at me). The drag friend, she introduced us online, and we chatted on msn. I asked him if he could do me a favor for me. I had just had a serious convo with Jen the previous weekend, about my feelings and what it does when she blows my needs off-Jen saying she understood, and yet 6 days later on the phone says "well, I need a woman's opinion and etc." showed I needed to go extra measures. I asked him if he could talk to her about it, that he can explain to her these feelings aren't just me being pushy, but is for real how people like us are experiencing. I figured, then she might settle down since this is someone else who is a gay drag queen, also her friend sitting with her, she would understand it's more than her best friend behaving this way. This was the only type of move I had left to play-she left me no choice. BUT, when she called me and yelled and screamed over the phone, it was that I apparently had gone behind her back by doing this-by asking him to talk to her(which he did and said she just was pissed and didn't say a damn thing). She threatened me that if I did anything like that again that we were through. That she had almost decided to do it then and there, and on how I was lucky she decided to give me another chance. She yells at me on why I didn't say this to her face-I was like uh I did, you kept blowing me off and ignoring me...for a very long time.

I know that in her mind, of all the crap she's been through in relationships and friendships, I was always the one she'd come home to or call for advice. I was one of the solid things that never changed and wasn't there because I was a relative and family duty. There because I wanted. For yrs she's gone to/called Melissa, her girl friend, knowing she's always there. Would never lie to her, or kiss her butt. Would tell her she was wrong on something, if so. But would always remain there for her. Now, her complete history with Melissa, suddenly ended and it seems that instead of accepting things now, she's clinging to the past. Making it worse for herself. In her mind, that Melissa she would always go to is dead, and in place is a brand new person. She can't seem to get over history and just deal with changing of even a name. Will not acknowledge it until it's in print in front of her face. I think it's all very sad really. When she looks at me, I know back in her mind she's pretending I am still Melissa, and not Dante.

But, after her yelling at what she did to me over the phone, and saying on how she had been ready to just drop me then and there, after all of our time together, including my near 3yrs of patience, it almost seems to me that maybe the friendship is already dead? That type we used to have. Since I moved back into state, she hasn't made effort to put time aside for even 2 hrs to go out and eat together. We live 15 mins away fro each other. I'm the one who calls her, she doesn't call me. I'm thinking she might have already declared me dead in her head, and because I'm not Melissa, I'm just another friend that's around.

I don't want to be the friend that gives up on the other, but she seemed so quickly to do so, just because she doesn't get to have her way. I don't want to assume she's dumped me, but I don't want to hang around forever waiting for her to some around. I don't want to make this dramatic on how we now seem to be drifting, but even now on the phone, alot I'm hanging on is waiting to see if she calls me Dante, or will keep saying "she". Almost as if I'm waiting for her approval, because she means so much to me. But that's not how it goes. Does she even deserve the chance again? Should I even bother? Willing to drop me so quickly after all I did was put my foot down after almost 3 yrs? That I was selfish for her wanting it? And all this before I've been able to start T? I know living here and her going to have to see it in the flesh will finally give her no more room for avoiding the subject, but if she cared that deeply for me, why hasn't she finally at least give it a chance? After All these yrs of being together-since 98, my time, being her person to lean on, the person who didn't give a damn about her down syndrome, who recognized how smart she is, and respects and admires her for persevering through crap other people might give, she's a CNA as well as going through property management school, after all of this, could I end up truly meaning so little to her?

Damnit, now I'm crying ;_; I just never thought I would have to learn to cope for the one I hung with, loved, went through hard times with, disrespecting me, avoiding what is me, ready to abandon me, just so she can have a sense of control in her life. I know full well that instead of being dumped, she'll do the dumping. The problem is that she's building this up in her mind. She never even apologized to me at any time, even after that day on the phone, for her behavior. Which means she still feels justified. Of all the people in the world, I never expected her. I just never thought, that in my whole existence, there would ever come a time where my thoughts toward her would be "I don't care anymore about her opinion. If she doesn't like it, she can kiss my @--"

I guess I'm a bit of an emotional wreck about this right now. What makes it stick out worse too, is that of all people who found out/told ai co-workers, relatives,grandparents, sibling, parents, other friends, she is literally the only one who is doing this. Sorry for long post-just think being able to get all thoughts and facts out will be able to help people in aiding with advice. Thank you for those who have responded already:hug:

[7sisters]

Dante, you are working things out in your mind by writing all this. Good.

Forgive me for judging Jen. But I perceive 2 things a) her emotions are too volatile for her to manage b) relationship-negotiation-skills is not her strongest point.

This is Part A of the problem in the relationship

Now forgive me asking you (Dante don’t have to reply to this here, but think about it):

Do you tend to fall into a pattern of loving, nurturing people who are not exactly nice to you? Are you a giver and not a taker? Are you comfortable with reciprocal relationships? Are you always the caregiver? Do you feel more secure and comfortable if people always depend on you? Do you encourage friends to depend on you? And does this make you feel more secure in your relationship?

If YES, then that MAYBE Part B of the problem in the relationship.

Part A + Part B = pain and problems

Look, Dante, I'm sorry... but I think this relationship needs to be much more healthy, to work long-term.

Even if you used “Melissa”, it would have come to this. Chances are she was treating you like this even before you came out to her. Look back and see if this is true.

Dante, accept she cannot help being who she is. This is the way she is. A girl who has such volatile emotions she cannot handle them.

Don’t be resentful of her. Would you be resentful of a person who bumped into you because he is visually impaired? Would you resent a slow person who is slow because he is physically challenged? No.
Jen has a difficulty dealing with her emotions. You cannot resent her.

I’ve been in a similar situation as you in ‘98. I went to sit in a temple for solace, and I saw the words of the Buddha (that an artist had painted into the wall)…. the path to happiness is detachment. Perhaps the time has come to let go, my friend.

Dante, we all come into each others lives with a purpose. Yours was to love and encourage her. You have done that. Now move on to another person who is waiting for your help and love. You have many more lives to touch.

A sign that a relationship is over is when there is more disharmony than harmony. Has yours reached that stage?

As usual, this is purely my perspective. Feel free to disagree with every word I say. remember I dont know you well enough to judge. In fact forums are not exactly the place for complex issues like this.

[DanteDonovan]

Do you tend to fall into a pattern of loving, nurturing people who are not exactly nice to you? Are you a giver and not a taker? Are you comfortable with reciprocal relationships? Are you always the caregiver? Do you feel more secure and comfortable if people always depend on you? Do you encourage friends to depend on you? And does this make you feel more secure in your relationship? I actually don't fall into that pattern. I like to give people chances, as in some don't realize what they are doing, so I will sit and talk with them, to give them a fair chance. For one cannot learn if no one will teach. Once given the information, what they do then is their choice, but I won't let them continue to be mean to me. I will tell them so, and then walk away. For quite some time I used to be more giver than taker, but I learned over time that I matter too, and being a taker isn't being selfish, but looking out for myself. As for encouraging friends to depend on me, not quite the case. I let them know I will always be here for them, as any good friend should be, but if they're just b@#$ing about something that's their fault, I'll tell them straight up I don't want to hear it lol Also, I would actually hate it if the person ALWAYS depended on me. I find that really annoying because I refuse to hold people's hands for life. I'll help if you ask, but only so much because I'll be damned if I piggy back them. Besides, long ago I found that also adds way too much stress trying to figure out how to take care of yourself, while trying to be responsible for someone else's life-just can't happen ><


Chances are she was treating you like this even before you came out to herThis is a yes and no. She was always strong willed, but still fair. Held true to her beliefs, but open to things around her. She started getting more emotional and needing control over her life about 5-6 yrs ago(?) She was with a man long-term, was engaged and moved out of state with him. He ended up cheating online as well as in town on her. She was torn apart. She moved back. It took her quite a while to get over it. Longer than I'd think necessary, but I stuck with it only because each time we talked about it, she would talk intelligently on how she was realizing any relationship since then she thought didn't work out because she'd still compare them to what she had with her fiance when things were good. Each talk was something new of discovery and learning, so I wasn't too upset, though after a point I told her she just needed to drop it or just never date again. So, after about 2yrs, she got really truly independent again, trying out relationships, doing good...buuuut then the one she had been with long-term...turns out he had a sex addiction problem and was doing things online...after many things happened she broke it off. So after that yr of being with him(now 3 have gone by) she started her changes. Becoming more controlling, watching everything going on around her that has to do with relationships/family, getting more intense. Always needing to be the one to stop any of her relationships if they weren't going well, even if it was just something beginning that was just people not compatible. I know she doesn't ever want to be abandoned again, be the one to stop it and have control, but with this it's ridiculous she's behaving this way, since she was the first I told about this, as well as still was here and never left her. Her need for control has completely blinded her of the facts that I have always been here for her, and never planned on leaving. But, it seems I already left, in a way(to her).


Don’t be resentful of her.No worries, I may be disappointed and disheartened by her, but I do not resent or hate her. I will always love her and wish her well, and understand that if it is time to separate, then so be it. It takes a lot for me to hate someone. A LOT you'd have to have done something incredibly horrible to end up on my hate list XD
I'll feel sympathy for her that she let a couple past events to run her life, but I've brought it up on different occasions, but it seems it's stuck there.

I'm thinking her last chance is when I start T, because maybe it being in front of her-straight up in her face and she can't avoid it or pretend any more, will probably be the conclusion on if she truly will be able to handle the reality. I don't think it looks too positive, but maybe it's what she's going to need for her reality check. All I know, is that I've been preparing for some times of possible endings, and have been distancing myself from it at the moment, since I don't need this stress in my life. When the transition happens, I'm not going to "work with her" or wait around for her though. So, when I mean "chance" means that if she changes her mind, I will happily welcome her, but I will not start brand new with having patience for another yr with her. Basically, this is going to be her ultimatum. Keep up, or keep out. >_>

[7sisters]

Excellent to see you have been able to sort things out within yourself. And it is good to have self-knowledge. All the best.

[Nicole Erin]

I know well about this.
I have a few friends who insist on calling me by my male name, tho I have told them countless times that I go by "Erin".
The difference is, these are not close friends whoI have known for years, these are just casual passer-by friends at best.

One solution is - if you know of any nick-names your friend hates, start calling her by that when she won't use "Dante" or whatever name you prefer to be called.

See, there is a reason a lot of TS go "stealth", it is to disconnect from their past.

People come and go, sometimes it is best just to let go, tho it is hurtful. I mean if she is so narrow-minded that she cannot handle your TS status, what kind of future do you two have together as friends? You are becoming a man, she is just gonna have to adjust.

See with my female name, Erin, spoken it could be a man or woman name (Aaron/Erin) so I don't know what their trip is. The ones I know who ain't known me long or very well, I feel they have no right to call me my male name.

[DanteDonovan]

One, she has no nicknames XD Besides getting slight vindictive is not really going to help anything. I would just being going immature. and it is Dante (:

I don't want to disconnect from my past. My past is a part of me, and I went through rough times, and good times, and everyone else has been extremely supportive. Hell, my dad, when I told him, he made it a point to use my name every time we talked ^^


See with my female name, Erin, spoken it could be a man or woman name (Aaron/Erin) so I don't know what their trip is. The ones I know who ain't known me long or very well, I feel they have no right to call me my male name. Quick Q, but if Aaron and Erin sound so much alike, how do you know if someone is calling you by your male name and not the other? With that name, there is just the boys vrs spelling, and the girls. some people don't think about the end with "ron instead of "rin" >_>


"spoken it could be a man or woman name (Aaron/Erin)", "I feel they have no right to call me my male name
Forgive me if I'm off, but this right here seems contradictory

[GaleWarning]

Aaron rhymes with barren ...
Erin is pronounced "airen" ...
I think ...
:)

[DanteDonovan]

Just want to say thank for the responses, that I have come to a conclusion of things to come. I have officially decided to not contact her anymore seeing as how been here near 7 weeks and only returned 1 message and other than that, no calling. I called her last night out of curiosity, guess what? She was with friends. Said she'd call me when she got home, surprise, she didn't >_>

If Jen wishes to allow a couple past events in her life, making her obsessed at having to control everything around her, then so be it. I did my part, for longer than I probably should have, but now it is at an end. If she decides she wants to try, then I welcome her, but I'm not going to be patient with her any longer if she does. She either gets with the program if she wants to stay friends, or she goes somewhere else.

I am now completely ready to start emotionally separating myself from her, as I don't like to keep anything of downers on my mind. Just causes stress and exhaustion and I refuse to let something like this run my life. I'm glad I was friends with her, and maybe will be in the future. But I'm not playing guessing game anymore. Not going to hope she calls me all the time.

I'm done. If she wants me, she knows where to find me~

[Areyan]

i'm sorry to read this man... this is harsh. you are brave to have come out to her and i'm sorry she hasn't accepted this the way she should have by now. honestly, after this many years i'd be mad too... transition or not, expressing your true gender to someone can be such a gift of love from a transperson and one that deserves honour. i don't have any experience at being out with many people in real life (i'm only out to one so far) but i am new here too and still coming to terms with myself. not sure if i can offer any advice, but you're welcome to pm me if you want to talk.

hope things get better for you soon... keep on keepin' on.

[DanteDonovan]

Thanks ^^ Yeah, funny thing is, I even told her that she was the first I came out to since we were so close I knew she deserved it. I guess even that doesn't cross her mind now.

And what do you mean new here? You have bunches of posts and been here well over a year. Or do mean mean new still with these situations?

As far as not sure you can offer any advice only because you came out to one friend, don't sweat it. It's like the age thing. Wisdom comes with age, it's true, but I also know a lot of younger people who are wiser than their elders. So, even if you may not have gone through much with this stuff yet, I know that not only me, but others here would more than welcome your thoughts and opinions:hugs:

If you ever want to talk, feel free to pm me as well ^^

[Nicole Erin]

Aaron is not my male name, no, my man name is totally masculine.

I know it is hard to lose friends, in fact I have a brand-new one and I am HOPING we are friends for years to come, and just maybe she can be my G/F. Of course as I live F/T as Erin, there is no shock value, and yes she is well aware I am TS.

I wish I knew what to say about things, I know it is hard when people you were friends with just kind of blow you off.

Welcome to one hard lesson about being a man - women are hard to deal with. I don't know if you had romantic feelings for her or strictly platonic but it is never easy.

[DanteDonovan]

Welcome to one hard lesson about being a man - women are hard to deal with. I don't know if you had romantic feelings for her or strictly platonic but it is never easy.

Haha I already know women are hard to deal with XD Even though get along with guys a bit more, I do love the fun feisty women to :d As to which, over time, I realized how male my personality is that even though I love to give everyone crap(the fun way) I have a bigger habit of teasing girls mercilessly XDDD Totally amused when they smack me for it, get frustrated and pout. So, yeah I know they're hard to deal with, but I like variety of things, so they fit just well for me ^^

As for Jen, it was just platonic, which I have a feeling makes it worse. Because we weren't there out of family/lover obligations, but just because we loved and trusted each other-I think that's where the hurt comes from so much-of which I am actually pretty much over her. I have a great ability to separate myself emotionally from things like this, so it won't affect me for more than a couple weeks.

As for you finding a friend, and maybe possible gf of it, good for you! I hope it works out well for you both. One can never have too many friends (: