I...love...you.

[Frédérique]

That’s a given, but that’s not what I’m going to talk about. Do you love me? Never mind...

OK. If you’re posting in this section, you’re most likely male by birth, and you enjoy wearing women’s clothing in some capacity; either under, over, or a combination of both. You’re active in the act of emulating women, or you are affecting feminine gestures, vocal characteristics, and other tell-tale behavior in an effort to pass and achieve some longed-for goal you have in mind. Since males, according to everything you hear or see or read, are supposed to have a hard time saying “I love you,” has this spurious fact changed, along with your outward appearance and inner transgendered re-wiring?

I don’t find it difficult to say, “I love you,” but I guess I’m supposed to. Who says, anyway? Apparently females say the phrase in question without much difficulty (by comparison), but therein resides a tale. I have an ex-girlfriend who says, “I love you” with alarming frequency, punctuating short sentences during conversation with these three words. However, I notice the...insincerity...all the time. What is she telling me? We broke up many years ago, yet she still tells me she loves me, even during a blow-by-blow description of every lover she’s had since we parted company. Of course, I will say “I love you,” in response, sometimes out of habit, but I would anyway. With her, there is a slight hesitation before I form the words. After I exhale, I feel strange – do I really mean what I say, or am I simply remembering another time and another place, when I did love this person with all my heart? My ex-girlfriend’s other stock phrase is “Life is short,” so I guess she’s trying to hang on to something during our mutual brief existence together. She loves me, but we are very much apart these days, separated by nearly half the country...

My other ex-girlfriend had a very hard time saying “I love you,” perhaps an indication of a previous disappointment or dashed hopes. She wouldn’t say it, but she would demonstrate her love in many other ways every time we were together. She was ultra-feminine. She wore dresses at all times, was a master (mistress?) of makeup application, and I was proud to take on the role of her male companion. I put my crossdressing on the back burner for a while, so pervasive was her feminine presentation. She did everything that my other girlfriend didn’t do, including go to church on a regular basis, be active in her town’s affairs, contribute to charities, and befriend children and the elderly. A real über-woman, but she wouldn’t say “I love you,” nor did she wish to hear it from me. After six months of dating, back in 2000, she feted me with a birthday party I will never forget. There was a picnic with a beautiful basket of goodies, a day spent together hand-in-hand doing various things, and a dinner at a very fancy restaurant. At the end of a long, exhilarating day, I pulled her close and said, “I love you.” She immediately replied, “No, don’t say that yet, in fact you shouldn’t say it at all...” fearful of a future she could not yet foresee. It took nearly two more years for the words “I love you” to decorate our everyday conversation, but it all ended abruptly with a crushing finality...

The last time I heard from that particular girlfriend, the words “I love you” were written at the bottom of a long, apologetic letter, which amazed me, after all we had been through. I think it’s a very feminine thing to say, an expression of deep feeling, something I like to be in touch with as a crossdresser. It comes with the territory you map out for yourself when you dress – I insist that something comes along for the ride, something at odds with masculinity, and it doesn’t hurt to embrace this beautiful change going on under the surface you are actively transforming. To a crossdressing friend, it’s easy to say “I love you.” We share something, after all – we must be in touch with our feelings, since crossdressing is an expression of feeling at the root level. I wear certain things to feel a certain way, and you, my friend, are a kindred spirit...

I need to say I grew up in an atmosphere where the words “I love you” were rarely heard. My parents didn’t say it, but they certainly expressed love in other ways. My sister is bitter about this even now. She wanted to be told “I love you” in no uncertain terms, i.e. she needed to hear that she was loved at all times. I tell her about my theory, outlined above, but she won’t listen. I know I was loved, and that’s good enough for me, but I’m a boy by birth. These days, however, with uncertainty looming all around and the years slipping past faster and faster, I feel the need to express love as often as I can and while I can. It’s all part of my inherent femininity, at least that’s the association I make, so I “come out” in this way to all concerned in an effort to express the female. I love all crossdressers everywhere (even those who disagree with me), and that feeling is resolutely genuine and heartfelt...

My question is this: do you find yourself saying “I love you” more since you’ve been actively crossdressing, or cultivating your feminine persona, or do you see no change? Do you say it at all? Maybe, like a majority of males, you find it difficult to speak the phrase for one reason or another, and your CD nature is not all-encompassing in this regard. I'm very much aware that we are all different, so please do not take offense. Have I told you “I LOVE YOU?” Good...

PS – I once told a crossdresser, on a similar site a few years ago, that one thing I like about these MtF discussion boards is the unmistakable fact that, just under the surface, just under the veneer of femininity, males are talking to each other nicely -- by and large, I mean. She (my friend) said “I suppose...” in so many words, and left it at that. I guess I’m not supposed to notice, or talk about, these things...
:doh:

[sissystephanie]

I was taught to say "I love you" when I was a small child. Wow, that was a looooong time ago! I have said it all my life and still do. Of course, I only say it when I really mean it. But I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that I am a CD. It has more to so with the fact that I am an emotional person, and have never been afraid to show it. When I told my late wife that I loved her and wanted to marry her, I was telling the truth. I kept telling her that for the almost 50 years we had together. She told me the same thing and I believe that is part of what held our marriage together. I believe part of what is wrong with our world today is that people are not willing to take a stand and say 'I love you" when they really do! And yes, Frederique, I do love you!!

[GirlieAmanda]

Wow this thread is for me! I am a VERY loving person. I am warm and friendly and am so genuine I think. I am probably more associated with a feminine personality than male although I am a normal seeming male on the outside. I guess I am a "soft" male. When I am my girl self, look out! I am super girlie and I can let go of the macho norms that are normally placed on males and get very emotional, loving, and much softer overall. My heart is just much more open to say things like, I Love You. I have said it to a friend lately after some extremely intimate and deep conversations. I was unsure if I should but I really felt it so I went for it. I still hold back a little because I am a good girl who's heart is big but easily broken. I guess the bigger they are the harder they fall. I feel this new girlie explosion for me has spilled over into my guy side and is starting to overtake the macho stuff a little.

I am not feeling a lot of love right now because my wife does not really love me anymore so I may be a little love starved. CDing has taken love from me but has made me a more loving person. I don't know if this is good or not. I refuse to change. I feel love probably more easily than a lot of people. I just need to find someone to say it to and be able to be with them all the time sharing that love together. Love is all we need!

[Kathi Lake]

Like you, I didn't grow up in a house where love was spoken or even demonstrated. Instead, I saw spousal abuse, infidelity, divorce, shallow dating (hey, it was the 70's :)), marriage of convenience, unhappiness, and divorce yet again. I left the house as soon as I could and joined the military.

Fast forward about 30 years. I have a wonderful family, a wonderful wife, a wonderful life. In each of those spheres, I ensure that the others know they're loved in word and deed. I say it to my daughter as I drop her off for school. I hug my son (in front of his friends, even :)) after a soccer game. I'll sprinkle the phrase, "By the way, have I mentioned how much I love you" into normal e-mails and conversations with my wife. I want to make sure that the cycle of not demonstrating love in my life ends with me.

Sadly, my wife came from similar circumstances, but with different results. Where I am pretty demonstrative, she is closed off. In over 21 years of marriage, I can count the number of times on one hand where she has initiated the phrase "I love you." Sure, she will say "I love you too" when I say I love her, but she doesn't initiate.

I say all of this to let you know that it's not necessarily a male or female trait (in my experience, at least), to be overly "lovey" in phrase or action. My wife is certainly all girl (and then some!), and yet has trouble wit tis. I am a male, at least in phenotype, and I use every opportunity to show those I love my love. Whether crossdressing changes that or not, I can't say, although I don't believe so.

Kathi

[Ediosa]

First of all, you really should be a writer. That was very well written and had a smooth flow to your ideas. Write a book or something.... :)

Second, I always tell my son that I love him. Did I receive it when I was growing up, nope. After I left to go to college and joined the military, did I receive it from my mother....yes. Did I give it back to her.....nope. I was very closed off to most people and I find it very hard to say "I love you", unless I really love that person. My mother I love....now I say it. My son I love...I will always say it. But saying to someone else...I find it very difficult because of the heartbreak I recieved from my ex.

[StephanieC]

I used to always tell my kids "I love you" when I tucked them in. Even know, with one in and one out of college, I always end a phone conversation that way. (Unless, of course, they are balling me out.) We'll never know when it's our last time to express how we feel about someone.

[Karinsamatha]

First Frédérique let me say your mastery of the "pen" is fantastic.
I had a very loving family, where I love you was said and demonstrated over and over. It is something I both demonstrate and say - when I do say I love you it is heart felt. But as I have come to grips with myself as a woman I tend to see through what to many people is a meaningless statement. Actually not a meaningless statement but one that has become devalued by misuse.
I look forward to reading how the other women feel about saying "I love you."
I Love you all. :hugs:

[Asako]

Growing up, I heard the phrase every night when going to bed. As I got older, it wasn't said AS much but I don't doubt for a moment that my family("evil" sister included) loves me. When it comes to non-family people, it's a phrase I reserve certain things as a way of showing how much they truly mean to me. If I only greet them and say goodbye, then they're just acquaintances. If there's a little physical contact, then obviously I trust them enough to let my guard down a bit. If I've gone so far as to kiss someone on the cheek, then they are someone who knows evens secrets about me and are people that I can trust quite a bit. However, "I love you" is something I reserve for family, MY kids(don't have any), and that one special someone. It's my way of letting them know exactly what I feel for them.

[renee k]

It's been my experience, that using the phrase I love you has ment an emotional attachment, with women that I have dated in the past. Reserved until our relationship has reached that level. Although the word love has a pretty broad meaning. I would use it to show appreciation for something someone (female gender) has done for me. Or to show I care about them.
With my children, especially my daugther. I would always use it to close a conversation or to be at peace with them before I left on a flight. So I suppose it all depends on the context it's used in.

Renee

[Sophie86]

I would say that I came from a loving household. My mom was very loving, and a stable influence. My dad was an alcoholic who could turn mean when he got drunk, but in spite of that I never had any doubt that he loved me; he just had a weird way of (not) showing it sometimes. Thanks to him, though, my four sisters and I sort of banded together--the Rebel Alliance to his Darth Vader. We've stayed close over the years.

The upshot is that I had no trouble with the words "I love you" until I hit my teens, and got kicked in the teeth by love a few times. That made me cautious about committing myself. When I met my wife, she was the first to use the 'L' word. She was a little hurt not to get it right back. I didn't have that love-at-first-sight experience with her. It was something that grew on me slowly over time. I kept waiting for that giddy emotional high, so that I would know the words were true. Eventually, I knew that there was something there, and even though I wasn't sure whether it qualified as "love", I said the words because I knew she needed to hear them. Twenty-three years later, I get the giddy emotional high all the time. Even when I'm not having a moment, though, I know that I love her right down into the marrow of my bones. I can be furious with her, and still the say the words and mean them. I know now that they aren't about some fleeting emotion, but rather a place that she occupies in my soul. We say the words to each other all the time: at every parting and every greeting; at the end of every phone call or email; before she goes to bed and again when I crawl into bed beside her; and at odd moments of the day just because we're feeling it. As far as we're concerned, there's no such thing as saying "I love you" too much, and we follow that same philosophy with our children.

How much is my attitude the result of being a crossdresser? I would say this much: IMO, a very large part of traditional masculinity is nothing but a defense mechanism to mask vulnerability. Love makes us vulnerable. The more deeply a guy is wed to that illusion of invulnerability, the harder he will find it to express love. Having accepted my crossdressing, and along with it my vulnerability, I don't have to protect myself from love anymore.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Not so sure i have witnessed any of this supposed stereotype, but i do think hollywood tries to portray it that way. I grew up in a normal, loving family but not one that was keen on saying it much. I have had numerous male friends over the years and was often uncomfortable with the frequency of "i love yous" spoken in their family. A trip to the grocery store required it. I have known as many female friends who also grew up in families like mine. Sure i love you, just don't make me say it.
It changed for me with my ex and i never had any difficulty expressing it vocally, regardless of where we were at the time, even while my ex struggled with it.
I'm also quite sure that with the acceptance of my TGness i have attained, that today i am much more capable of expressing kindness, pity, empathy and love.
mj (Cassie)

[Vickie_CDTV]

I have no problem saying "I love you". I grew up in a home with domestic violence, verbal and emotional abuse directed at my mother and I by my father. However, my mother is a very loving person (to say she fussed over me would be a tremendous understatement), and not a day went by when we didn't tell each other we loved them.

A former girlfriend whom grew up in a home with abuse from both parents finds it incredibly difficult to say that, and she didn't understand how easy it was for me to say it.

[Pythos]

What I have gotten is "you and I can be intimate, but you can't fall in love with me". I am one of those silly sods that connects intimacy with love, and by intimacy I mean real heavy "making out" all the way to climax. LOL

I have noticed women do have a very hard time saying those three little words. It is sad too. Cause me? I would love to be able to say it more freely.

[GingerLeigh]

I've never had a problem telling anyone how I feel. I tell my wife I love her all the time, my kids hear it from me too. I don't care if they need to hear it or anything, I just FEEL like saying it because it boils up and needs to come out. Is it a crossdressing thing? Maybe, but I doubt it.
My dad still kisses and hugs me and tells me he loves me all the time. Maybe he's a crossdresser? Nah, not likely. There are traits I consider to be related to the crossdressing and/or femininity. Getting teary during a mushy scene in a move, sure. Not giving much attention to competitive sports, OK. Liking feminine things and having some fashion sense, definitely. Being overly lovey dovey, maybe not. Maybe it's something we're taught.

Ginger Leigh

[CalamityJane]

I have no problem at all with saying "I Love You". I say it to my SO everyday as I depart from home for work..we kiss each other and I tell her "I Love You" and she tells me that she loves me. I cannot think of a day starting without proclaiming my love for her, she is very special to me.
As to if my crossdressing has had any influence on my saying "I Love You" is impossible to say as I have had crossdressing feelings since the year dot and my SO knew about my crossdressing from the get go, and I tell her I Love her as much now as I have ever done. If for any reason I have to contact her during her or my working day if by SMS text or e-mail I never fail to tell her "I Love You".
One final point I would like to stress is how important it is to tell your SO and your family just how much you Love them everyday and every chance that you have because life is very, very fragile and you just do not know when it is going to be the last time you tell them.

I Love you One and All

Jane

[Kathryn Martin]

I must admit that to write to this question has taken me days. I have read and re-read this thread and could not come to grips with the connection between the expression "I love you" and the Male to Female persuasion.

To me loving someone is an act of recognition. Whether it be my spouse, my parents, children, friends or even a stranger, opening my heart to the others uniqueness makes me recognize them and in that recognition I find where my thread of life folds into theirs. It is the moment where I feel affinity and closeness. In a world where we are separated from one another, I feel gratitude towards them and love. For it is they, who, even for one precious moment will lift the loneliness of my existence. To me love is not only an emotion, it is an act.

Then speaking or writing those words, is to me the affirmation of that act and emotion, because once it is said or committed in writing, it cannot be taken back, it is manifest.

For some making manifest their love is hard. What if, in that one moment a word slips past that does not carry it's full weight. What if, what is expected of me will not permit that emotion and therefore not that commitment. What if, the act of loving is the unsure path along the ridge of life.

For others making manifest their love is easy. A quick expression, a face, a mask, a common word.

For some it simply is. I'm one of those

Kathryn

[Tima]

To me loving someone is an act of recognition. Whether it be my spouse, my parents, children, friends or even a stranger, opening my heart to the others uniqueness makes me recognize them and in that recognition I find where my thread of life folds into theirs. It is the moment where I feel affinity and closeness. In a world where we are separated from one another, I feel gratitude towards them and love. For it is they, who, even for one precious moment will lift the loneliness of my existence. To me love is not only an emotion, it is an act.

These are wise words. “I love you” is an expression of feeling that cannot be taken lightly. I don’t often hear it in my life, but now and then it pops up. My mother tells me she loves me, but it’s usually prefaced by some admonishment along the lines of my transgendered nature. I would think that love, expressed in words, would be unconditional. Because of this, I don’t say it often. In my case, the phrase prefaces a hug, or a kiss, or both. I acknowledge your existence this way. I have feelings for you, and, in my case, they are unconditional. I cannot help but express love, if I feel it in some way. The act, in itself, is a tacit acknowledgement of one’s mortality.

Here’s another angle on this phrase in regards to crossdressing. Does anyone get all dressed up in their favorite outfit, whatever degree of finish they are going for, then look in the mirror and say “I love you,” to the reflection? It may not be aloud. You can be in love with how you look en femme, and consciously seek out this “other” side to your persona as an expression of love, real or imagined. Narcissism, I suppose, with an attendant creep factor, but I think this is going on in a continuing cycle to embrace the feminine. I would submit that this is purely innocent in nature, a by-product of loving oneself to begin with. I’m aware that all crossdressers may not feel this way, but there it is. Perhaps you cannot say “I love you” to someone else unless you can say it to yourself first.


I once told a crossdresser, on a similar site a few years ago, that one thing I like about these MtF discussion boards is the unmistakable fact that, just under the surface, just under the veneer of femininity, males are talking to each other nicely -- by and large, I mean.

That’s an interesting observation. This place is like an oasis of civility. :)

[Kathryn Martin]

Here’s another angle on this phrase in regards to crossdressing. Does anyone get all dressed up in their favorite outfit, whatever degree of finish they are going for, then look in the mirror and say “I love you,” to the reflection? It may not be aloud. You can be in love with how you look en femme, and consciously seek out this “other” side to your persona as an expression of love, real or imagined. Narcissism, I suppose, with an attendant creep factor, but I think this is going on in a continuing cycle to embrace the feminine. I would submit that this is purely innocent in nature, a by-product of loving oneself to begin with. I’m aware that all crossdressers may not feel this way, but there it is. Perhaps you cannot say “I love you” to someone else unless you can say it to yourself first. [emphasis added by Kathryn]

That’s an interesting observation. This place is like an oasis of civility. :)

Narcissism plays a huge part in typing transgendered people. The term autogynephilia which is in danger of entering the DSM 5 describes this as the pathological involvement with oneself as a woman. It is another attempt at pegging us as perverts, just short of pedophiles.

I would argue with you whether this is narcissism at all. Prof. Miqqui Alice Gilbert Phd. wrote this:

"Rather than put myself down and belittle my appearance, I learn to
appreciate the beauty I have for what it is and to respect the person I am. The end result is that I am in a situation where I love my woman-self, I love the woman I am or think I am. But, because I am gender diverse this is not an achievement of healthy integration and personal self-acceptance. No, it is autogynephilia, being in love with the woman within. But having a condition, a label because I have learned self-respect only applies to those of us who are blessed with gender diversity. Let me explain.

Consider someone named Jane. Imagine that Jane was born an average genetic female and is typically content with living her life in her birth-designated gender. In addition to this, Jane is very happy with herself, and after attending various groups and workshops on self-love and self-respect, is especially pleased to be just who she is. Jane loves the woman she is; she loves the woman inside her as well as outside her. Does, then, Jane "suffer from" or exemplify autogynephilia? Of course not. Jane is simply an example of a happy, healthy normal woman. The same person, born a male but who realizes she is a woman, is a candidate for autogynephilia.

Stop for a moment and think about Jane's brother, John. He went to a lot of workshops and into therapy in order to overcome his sense of low self-esteem. He is not a very handsome man by the usual standards, but has come to realize that his beauty is an inner beauty, his strength his inner strength. Ah, ha! Obviously John is suffering from autohomophelia since he is in love with the man inside him. But there is no such category, (not even at this time for FtMs, though they will surely be explained in a sequel.)"

There is a healthy innocence in learning to appreciate oneself as who we are. If you love the way you look when you are dressed that is not narcissism but the achievement of a style that you think suits you.

If you love yourself as a woman, then you achieved self-acceptance which is important for being a healthy human being and not narcissism.

If you are obsessed with yourself in accordance with the description in Greek Mythology (Wickipedia): "[Narcissus], in Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology) was a hunter from the territory of Thespiae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thespiae) in Boeotia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeotia) who was renowned for his beauty. He was exceptionally proud, in that he disdained those who loved him. As divine punishment he fell in love with his own reflection in a pool, not realizing it was merely an image, and he wasted away to death, not being able to leave the beauty of his own reflection."

Anything short of this is really not narcissistic but rather the construct of "the boys from Toronto" (Blanchard, Zucker etc) to label, peg, and classify us as perverts.

It's ok to love yourself in whatever form as long as you don't hurt someone in the process.

Kathryn