Does it make you angry (Transmen Only)

[DemonicDaughter]

That so many on here attribute negative traits to males? I keep seeing these posts in which there is just so much negativity about anything that is considered "masculine" or "manly" (either by the poster or society in general) and so many trying to define what masculine means.

I understand that some people on these forums want to disassociate themselves from anything masculine because of how they identify, which is fine but I don't understand why they then need to put it down. It seems like they completely forget transmen are on these forums as well and that by making negative statements about men, they are making them about you.

Have you noticed this? How does it make you feel? Do you feel it projects unfair social expectations on you? Do you simply ignore it or feel it doesn't pertain to you? Do you think the ladies doth protest too much? :heehee:

[Kieron Andrew]

It seems like they completely forget transmen are on these forums as well and that by making negative statements about men, they are making them about you.

Have you noticed this? How does it make you feel? Do you feel it projects unfair social expectations on you? Do you simply ignore it or feel it doesn't pertain to you? Do you think the ladies doth protest too much? :heehee:
Its been that way on this forum as long as i can remember, funnily i am on quite a few other trans forums and it doesnt happen nearly as much if at all...most of the time i can ignore it, but other times i cant help but react to it, yes it hurts and really makes me angry that it seems we are not seen as the men we are by some who are meant to know what we are going through albeit from the other side of the fence...and yes i do think the ladies doth protest WAY to much! :p

[Ze]

Yep.

And it's why we're disrespected, ignored, preyed upon, belittled, ridiculed...blah blah blah. We get caught up in so many Catch-22s so that those projecting them upon us feel better by way of bullying superiority.

All because, for some reason, it seems MtFs generally can't "handle" themselves as well as FtMs. But no worries; that's somehow also all our fault, too.

[AnonyMouse]

I haven't noticed this so much. One of the things that gets to me the most is when the women exclude trans men from their dialogue (unintentionally, I'm sure) by casually addressing everyone on the forum as "ladies," or loading their discussions with female terms when the subjects are equally applicable to trans men. Another thing is when someone refers to "men" when what they mean is "cis men." And then there's my favorite: "Trans men don't have to deal with (whatever prejudice) because it's more acceptable for men/women to do (whatever nonconformist thing)." Some people just don't realize how kyriarchy works. (Hint: IT USES YOUR OWN IDENTITY AS AN EXCUSE TO SCREW YOU OVER.)

[mistunderstood]

I have just got used to it. What I really hate is pantie threads.:devil:

[DemonicDaughter]

Thanks everyone for answering. I happen to cringe every time I read a thread that says women are crossdressing because they wear pants or that its easier for FtM's because society accepts women wearing whatever they want. Like you only need to pull on a pair of jeans and work boots for you to pass as male! Grrrrr

Does stuff like this occur in your life outside the forums? As in, do people sort of act as if its so easy/simple for you to become a male or skim over the heartache you go through? Are they more aware of your struggle in person or online?

[AnonyMouse]

I'm in the closet in meatlife, so it's definitely more prevalent online. Outside the Internet the biggest thing that bothers me is that I can wear 100% male clothes and am still treated as a woman because of my body shape. It's tempting to blame cis women for wearing more masculine clothes and making it harder for me to pass, but... eh. Not like I can ask them to give up their hard-earned freedom just so my life can be more convenient.

[Kieron Andrew]

Does stuff like this occur in your life outside the forums? As in, do people sort of act as if its so easy/simple for you to become a male or skim over the heartache you go through? Are they more aware of your struggle in person or online?
Nope, only ever happens here...everyone ive met outside my circle of friends have been great!

[Areyan]

yeah, if all my pants spelled "man" really clearly i don't think i would be getting so excited about actual cross-dressing, lol... i'm looking forward to doing this in a way that no woman gets enthused about menswear, unless of course, she's a bit queer too.

[DanteDonovan]

I have noticed some things. Some an obvious disregard and seeming to turn threads into "girlfriend talk" I'll put it, but I think I also see where the negative comments come from(well for some).

1. I am happy that the notice brought to the attention of the transwomen when they come to our thread, that they also need to take us seriously. I think another thing that may help, which I was noticing, is a lot when I go into threads, there is really only the same handful of FTM that post. Compared to the MTF that post in our area, it's a bit like we're outnumbered. Maybe encourage more of our FTM's to participate? Because I know there has to be more than just the few I see here. Don't know if you've noticed, but how old a lot of the threads are. Last month, only 7 threads. 3 are from same person, 2 from a same person. In 08/10, pretty much same thing. a few more posts, but still a lot were done by the same people. There are quite a few FTM's I have seen leave comments, so this is showing how non-interactive many of us are. I find it hard to believe that a lot of the FTM's that comment, have no questions or subjects they want to ask or learn about. Our forum is full of followers, but not many leaders, so to speak.

2. As for most transgenders, they wish to separate from everything that their born gender is. Transmen want to dress walk, mannerisms, to be everything that is them. Same with transwomen. I think that with the transwomen(as well as some males too), they want to get away from it so much, that they also tend to loathe their current situations. They hate the straight jacket they are stuck in for a bit, and soon, the gender they are not, begins to grate on them. The habits and acts of what "you're supposed to be" probably you start noticing more and more, it starts picking at your brain.

You Obviously being unhappy to some degree with your born gender, all traits of it you don't want to be a part of at all. So begins the cycle, to where anything at all that has to do with that gender seems negative. I know most of these thoughts are not intentional, but it is prob part of where it comes from. Why you'll see "why do you want to be a guy? They're so single-minded" or "why do you want to be a girl, all giggly and squealing?" (I'm just making general-no offense to either side with what I put-just for example's sake).

I myself have on numerous occasions, when I see guys, that inside the back of my head, I am angry at them. Upset, envious, hateful, sad, helpless, hopeless. Hating them for being born with everything I want but was unfortunately denied, and the final thought that hits it home and rubs it in my face, that it is something I won't be able to change and never be able to have. However, the mental hatred towards women runs deeper. Inside my head, my skin crawls. I see them around me and near me, and they are reminding me of how I was born. Of the cell I want so desperately to escape. But then I just quickly remind myself, that I can't resent others for something that is not their fault. I cannot allow myself to think negatively about either of these things, and I think a lot of people don't realize that they are bringing these thoughts to the surface and onto others. Both transmen, and transwomen.


But, that is my opinion on some of the possibilities of where some of the unintended disrespect comes from. MTF and FTM alike.

PS, I'm wondering if the MTF's that post in our threads need a strong reminder to not post things that they shouldn't post in here. That belongs in their respective forums. There actually two right now that piss me off for being up >_>;

sorry for language ><

[DemonicDaughter]

Dante, you make some great points! I have to agree with you on them and that it would be nice to see more transmen posting on here. I honestly prefer reading this section over the MtF section as its not the same types of threads over and over again. :)

[WalT]

Not saying I've seen this here, but it pisses me off when trans women ask me why the hell I want to chop off my breasts, etc.; they see it as "such a waste." That's usually when I face palm or headdesk.

[AnonyMouse]

Dante, I definitely relate to what you're describing. It's taken me a lot of time to stop resenting women (because if they didn't exist, no one would expect me to be one), but the more time went on and I came to think of myself as a guy, the harder I find it to hold a grudge against any female, cis or trans. They like being women, and they're a beautiful and fun addition to the human race, so I'm all for them.

Now I just resent cis guys, running around all over the place with their perfectly-formed nads that they were just BORN WITH. They so do not appreciate all the money they've saved. (Intersexed and sympathetic cis guys excepted, of course.)

[christiek]

I'm not a trans-man but I hope you don't mind me posting anyways.

It seems, for whatever reason, that there are more MtF's than FtM's. Whether it be that that is fact or just perception is irrelevant; there are more MtF's on this and most sites. It is unfortunate that it seems that the trans-men in this forum get pushed aside at times because there are more trans-women. One of the things we all need to remember is that no one person is 100% masculine nor 100% feminine but we are all 100% human. 90% of us is the same. Though we may be shaped differently we all have ears, eyes, nose, mouth on our head; a neck torso 2 arms and 2 legs etc. (unless you have had an unfortunate accident or birth defect). At the same time the fact that we are all 100% human means that we are all forgetful at least from time to time and we all make mistakes. Personally, I try to include trans-men in my posts or at least make it more general by leaving it open and not directing it at either as well I try not say things such as "What do you girls think" and such.

(random note . . . I almost cried watching a Subaru commercial just now)

It is unfortunate that the majority rules in almost all cases. We deal with these situations in society every day. One of the big examples is same sex marriage. In the US at least a same sex couple can get married but most states wont recognize it at a legal marriage. Why is that? Because the majority of people are (as we put it these days) straight. In the same way, for a long time, white people were by far the majority in the US. We all know about the many different racist things that have happened in the past in this country (if you live here and Im sure others know as well. Even today we have racist people and those people that don't consider themselves to be racist and don't say or do things that would make you think they are but are only really interested in their race. It is general human nature. "The group you belong to is the group that (most) people are worried about the most." (and yes you can quote me on that) In a lot of cases it has nothing to do with disliking any other group. It totally sux but thats how it is. Again its human nature.

I think we all need to just take a step back and look at things from a wider perspective. Unfortunately most people won't. I know it takes time. Which is mainly due to the fact that as people we don't like change. We can all hope, and pray if you pray, that we (as the human race) will be more open to others that we see as "different" in the future. Maybe one day we won't even look at those people as "different" at all.

[AnonyMouse]

I appreciate your sentiment, Christie, but I think your post would do better in another thread - say, one where a major kerfuffle has just occurred between two factions. This is a thread for FTM's to vent about the way some MTF's treat us, not for everyone to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Instead of telling us how unfortunate it is that the majority usually rules (which we knew already), maybe you could remind some of your fellow ladies that they are the majority on this forum and of the power that gives them in general discourse.

[DanteDonovan]

Christie
It seems, for whatever reason, that there are more MtF's than FtM's. Whether it be that that is fact or just perception is irrelevant; there are more MtF's on this and most sites. It is unfortunate that it seems that the trans-men in this forum get pushed aside at times because there are more trans-women.Aside from I agree with AnonyMouse said about your post. While we would welcome an MTF opinion on some things, what you posted really had nothing to do with the subject at all, though well meant.

Now, for the qoute I have from you here, this is true. I have a bit of knowledge on why there are more MTFs on sites, or just sites. Because it seems that maybe FTMs keep things inside a bit more, because I very rarely come across a site dedicated straight to them, or like this site that is for both. I tell you it was months and hrs of searching to find a more dedicated site for more particular subjects, besides the typical GBLT community. Those types seem to be "share your troubles and let's hold hands" in a way. Don't seem to hit the serious issues.

This site alone is a prime example (also prob a bit typical with guys not being quite as excited chatty as females) but of the lack of FTM threads made. We might be getting pushed out a bit by the MTF and maybe some of the posts not desired in our area, but lets face it, how many of them are stepping up with new threads and subjects? I understand at times one really has nothing they want to find out, but I know-we all know-that we came here to learn and questions answered. But it seems to me that maybe a lot of them are just waiting for an interesting thread to be put up to reply to, but not take effort to make one themselves. So a bit of us seemingly "outnumbered" is kind of self induced on our part.

I know I have a lot of questions I want to ask, but I don't want to pi$$ people of by threads made solely by me XD I make sure to pace myself to maybe only one a week lol I like it here and I don't want to get kicked out.

I guess I just notice this stuff more because on an art site I run 7 groups and have to keep things going to stimulate people and try to keep them interested and want to participate. That can only happen when as a community do we work-only then can things get better, because lets face it, there are only so many things a handful of people can do on their own to keep the fire going-help is sometimes needed.

So, even though most of your post kind of veered off subject, that very top point was a good one. I know we all welcome opinions of MTF CDs etc in our threads that don't have "FTM only" but just try to stay more on subject lol <333 :hugs:

[Areyan]

I know I have a lot of questions I want to ask, but I don't want to pi$$ people of by threads made solely by me XD I make sure to pace myself to maybe only one a week lol I like it here and I don't want to get kicked out.



Heh, :yt:

as excited as i am right now with my self discovery i also don't want to be a nuisance with all my questions - things i'm sure have been asked many times before.... i feel a bit calmer these days as well so i'm not quick to get all psyched out about other people's points of view, lol.

[DemonicDaughter]

I'm not a trans-man but I hope you don't mind me posting anyways.

Actually, I mind very much that's why I SPECIFICALLY marked the thread "transmen only"! Thanks for proving the point that they get so little respect on these forums and that people seriously need to understand this forum isn't called "MTF Crossdressers"! You've made any relevant point you might have made completely void as you've done the VERY THING this thread was started about.

:angry:

[DanteDonovan]

yup :/ Is why I put we welcome their posts in threads-unless they are marked as FTM. Btw, (and was amused and thought it when I saw your previous post) that your avatar totally matches your posts here XD

[DemonicDaughter]

I agree Dante. I find it amazing that someone who can obviously read would believe the rules don't apply to her and post in the threads with some sorry line of "I hope you don't mind"! If I didn't mind I wouldn't have typed "transmen only". I wouldn't have bothered directing the thread ONLY to transmen and I wouldn't have posted it specificially in the Transmasculine section! How stupid of me to think all those things might be actual indicators of whom I wanted to hear from.

Whatever...


Btw, (and was amused and thought it when I saw your previous post) that your avatar totally matches your posts here XD
And my avatar, post color also match my hair color. Blue! :D

[Tamara Croft]

I'm not a trans-man but I hope you don't mind me posting anyways.

<posting as an admin>

What part of 'transmen only' did you fail to understand? This is blatent dis-respect and will not be tollerated!

[DemonicDaughter]

Okay so hopefully that drama is over and we can get back to the discussion at hand! I'm sorry but I'm a very curious creature and being I have quite a few friends that are transmen, these questions help me a lot. :)

Anyhow! In the MtF section, its sometimes mentioned that a GG friend will sort of help them "be more feminine". When you come out to someone either online or in person, and they are male, do they ever try to help you be more masculine? Do they become brotherly/fatherly as some MtF insist women become sisterly with them? How does it work for you guys?

[DanteDonovan]

I've never really had that problem. I just had some people slip once in a while with the he/she thing, not because they can't get it straight, but because I do have some traits that are a bit girly and sometimes they forget XD That's just a couple people though. When it happens we'll both laugh. I do have some feminine traits that are just me, not trying to get rid of them at all, and they know it but don't say anything. They just see it as"lol, whatever, that's just Dante haha"

As for sisterly/brotherly and people trying to coach me on being more manly, I've never had it at all. Never had someone become more fatherly or brotherly. I have one friend that said he thinks of me as a brother, but for him it means he cares so much for us our friendship, he sees me as family <3

I think it helps that in my type of personality, when known as female all growing up (and now), I was/am end up being "one of the guys", and I think that's why none ever really feel they have a duty to coach me or brother/father. Always take me seriously. I'll wrestle them to the floor, share those disgusting jokes, curse like no other, talk cars etc., so even when known as girl to them, I was still plenty man enough to hang XD

[Kieron Andrew]

Anyhow! In the MtF section, its sometimes mentioned that a GG friend will sort of help them "be more feminine". When you come out to someone either online or in person, and they are male, do they ever try to help you be more masculine? Do they become brotherly/fatherly as some MtF insist women become sisterly with them? How does it work for you guys?
I have had help from some MtF friends here in the UK, but never from anyone on this forum particularly, most of what i have learned is from studying cisgendered men out in the big bad world :)...but most of my learned behaviours came naturally....

[Areyan]

i have a MTF friend who is not too far into her transition to still be able to give me pointers and we are the same age so that helps. my 11 yr old son, memories of my father (he lives a bit further south) and of course, watching men in public. i quite often hold their gaze until they look away, heh... picked that one up from guy friends as well. i also read other transmen's and cismen's experiences online through blogs, websites etc. but so far, i'm not out enough to actually buddy up with someone for real advice... i don't want to pick my MTF friend's brain too much because she's trying to forget male stuff, lol. :heehee: