Girl at school...

[paulaloha]

So last week I started back to school and in my second class I noticed this girl.

She had super short hair and was wearing a baseball cap, long baggy jeans, a volunteer firefighter shirt and some tan mens work boots. She was dressed completely as a young guy would dress, which in my view is crossdressing if anything is.

But what got my attention was that nobody cared, it was viewed as perfectly normal for this girl to be dressed as a guy. I'm assuming she was just trying to "be one of the guys" at a local fire dept.

Then I thought, what if I were to be in that same class in a skirt with heels and a bra and and womens cut t-shirt with long hair or a wig of sorts. Everyone would stare and think it was so weird, I would not be accepted at all.

Our society is just so weird. It is totally fine if women want to be as masculine as possible in both actions and appearance. But if a man wants to be more feminine and dress in female clothing he is often viewed as a freak, gay or pervert, possibly all 3.

Just kinda got me frustrated at our society.

Well that is my rant for the night.

Paula

[nvlady]

Welcome to reality.

[Roberta Marie]

Paula,

The reason that she is able to dress that way is that at some point in time, a few brave women dared to pull on pants and face the ridicule and gossip. The reason that you can not wear a skirt In class is because men are not brave enough to do what some women had done so many years ago.

Society did not just decide one day that it was OK for women to wear pants. Women had to work and fight to earn the right go wear pants. If we men are not willing to do the same, then we have no right to complain about society not allowing us to wear what we want.

Just my opinion.

Bobbi

[paulaloha]

I think that is a very valid point Bobbi. I cannot argue with it, but I can still get frustrated even if I'm not gonna do anything about it. Maybe one day I'll wear a skirt, but I'm not there yet.

[Stephenie S]

Well sweetie. You're just a bit mixed up.

You noticed a girl in your class who you say was dressed kinda masculine. But then you described what sounds like a pretty normal outfit for many young girls. Baggy men's pants, baseball cap, work boots. That's nothing out of the ordinary for a college class.

Then you complain that you couldn't wear a skirt, HEELS, a bra, and a wig, because you would be stared at and thought weird. That outfit is completely unusual in a college classroom.

Now if your classmate had been dressed in a three piece suit, suspenders, polished wingtips, and tie, you can bet you bottom dollar she would be stared at and thought weird.

If you were to wear skinny jeans, a fitted t-shirt, and flats, no one would bat an eye.

Lets get real here, hon. If you want to wear stockings and heels in a college classroom you are gonna get looked at no matter what your gender. If you want to wear a suit and tie in a college classroom you are gonna get looked at no matter what your gender. Dress in baggy chinos or jeans, work boots, and a fireman's t-shirt, and you will be ignored no matter what your gender.

Is there a double standard at work in our society? Perhaps there is, but this ain't it. And as a college student, you should be able to tell the difference.

My advice? Dress how ever you want. You want to wear a skirt and heels in class? Go ahead. You will never be in a more accepting environment. If you do your work, study hard, and treat your classmates well, they will quickly lose interest in what you are wearing. You will just be that weird guy who dresses funny. So? The real world is far less accommodating to nonconformity. Look around you. You have already seen a girl dressed in "guy's" clothes. The sky didn't fall. The world still spinning. Want to wear women's clothes? Do it.

Stephie

[KlaireLarnia]

Is there a double standard at work in our society? Perhaps there is, but this ain't it. And as a college student, you should be able to tell the difference.

The reality of the situation is that society has allowed women to first power dress and then dress in men's styling. Soceity is sadly created by women and they dictate the terms of what is acceptable. They crossed into male dressing styles many years before I was even born, but where smart enough not to allow men the same freedom to cross into their territory.

Do not mistake what you saw. Yes this girl can wear male clothing, but is not seen as cross dressing - it is seen as making a statement and being unique by other women. But at the same time I will be certain this is not what she would normally wear, it is more a one off "LOOK AT ME!" statement she made to get noticed by people like you and the other males at your college.

Society is unfair, that sadly is the world we live in. You have two simple choices: Accept it or go against it (which means wearing female clothes in public). Most of us, just live with the first option... Even though I have worn female clothes in public, it is not something I will or would do often or locally. Not worth the hassle and issues it would cause.

Klaire

[Persephone]

I know how you feel. Been there, done that, and it is very, very frustrating.

Sephenie posted some terrific comments. She's largely spot on.


Lets get real here, hon. If you want to wear stockings and heels in a college classroom you are gonna get looked at no matter what your gender. If you want to wear a suit and tie in a college classroom you are gonna get looked at no matter what your gender. Dress in baggy chinos or jeans, work boots, and a fireman's t-shirt, and you will be ignored no matter what your gender.

I actually took a year of college classes en femme. At that time I probably passed until I spoke up and then everyone knew I was some kind of T, although they may not have known which kind.

There were people who were repelled and prefered not to speak or interact with me, and others who befriended me.

At first I tried to "fit in," wearing pants and tops. One day I noticed one of the other women often wore a skirt to class, so I thought "what the heck," and started to wear skirts and 2-3" heels to class too. It was interesting that within a few class sessions we started averaging about 4 to 5 women wearing skirts in each class session.

[Marissa]

watched Tyra Banks show one day..and the models were exected to wear cross over clothes.. so girls came out with jeans or skirt but with bf shirts or sweaters.. guy came out with a skirt/kilt.. not too many in audience bought it as something to wear all the time.. so yes, society dictates what we wear.. like the new line of womens wear that are mens clothes..how to wear them right...lol..try that with men wanting to dress..lol..

we live in what society dictates..

Hugs,
Marissa

[RachelPortugal]

Paula,

The reason that she is able to dress that way is that at some point in time, a few brave women dared to pull on pants and face the ridicule and gossip. The reason that you can not wear a skirt In class is because men are not brave enough to do what some women had done so many years ago.

Society did not just decide one day that it was OK for women to wear pants. Women had to work and fight to earn the right go wear pants. If we men are not willing to do the same, then we have no right to complain about society not allowing us to wear what we want.

Just my opinion.

Bobbi

Quite true, to a point. The big difference is that those few brave women did not go so far as to wear a codpiece to fill out the baggy trousers. Most MtF crossdressers use breastforms and even padding to attain a feminine shape which is a considerable behavioural difference.

In my opinion, humble as it may be, those amongst us who go out in a skirt or dress without wigs and have beards or moustaches are the men who are working and fighting to earn the right to wear skirts without ridicule or gossip.

Those off us who like to wear a bra with forms, make up and wig etc will, unless totally passable, always be looked upon as different even weird and may be open to ridicule and gossip from many elements of society, who forget that everyone has a freedom of choice.

[LitaKelley]

Hmmm....


So... can we put together a million TG/CD/TS march and click our heels to Washington holding signs "We have the right to wear dresses"

[Tima]

Our society is just so weird. It is totally fine if women want to be as masculine as possible in both actions and appearance. But if a man wants to be more feminine and dress in female clothing he is often viewed as a freak, gay or pervert, possibly all 3. Just kinda got me frustrated at our society.

Our society is too lazy to acknowledge differences between people, nor does it care to welcome anything outside of the norm. You see this all around, not just in regards to gender or sexuality. As far as women go, and it can be quite far, imagine how long it has taken them to attain the level of public non-femininity you have described. More power to them, so why can’t we dress as we please and join the party?

I think it has more to do with prejudice. Everything is “team” these days, and the individual is an endangered species. He (or she) is inherently harmless, but the group perceives them to be outsiders, incapable of being useful members of society. In other words, if you’re an outsider, you can’t be controlled, and you are a threat. If you dress up the way you want to, you turn society on it’s head, deflecting attention away from what people should be doing, and that just won’t “do” will it?

A male can be more feminine. It’s only natural. Expressing that femininity in public (or in a rigid societal structure) can be frustrating, but you must carry on regardless.

[Pythos]

I find this funny to see this thread still going seeing as I have stated much the same and gotten in trouble.

It is acceptable for a woman to take on entirely male looks, and not acceptable for a male to take on feminine looks.

As far as makeup, I am sorry that is not a female only area, it is just it was taken over by women only.

There are those on this forum that say that guys that do not do the breast forms and tuck and go the whole nine yards are "half assed", well I also think that guys that do this, ARE the trail blazers. Nomad had a grand point, women just wanting the freedom in clothing styles DID NOT pack their pants, or cod pieces, and bind their breasts. They just put the clothing on. Much in the manner I just put my stuff on, be it leggings , or hose and skirts, when I go out in guy, or androgynous mode.

I like full on crossdressing for the artistic nature, but I would not want to live 24/7 with forms and tucked just so I could wear the clothing styles I like.

[Steph.TS]

Paula,

The reason that she is able to dress that way is that at some point in time, a few brave women dared to pull on pants and face the ridicule and gossip. The reason that you can not wear a skirt In class is because men are not brave enough to do what some women had done so many years ago.

Society did not just decide one day that it was OK for women to wear pants. Women had to work and fight to earn the right go wear pants. If we men are not willing to do the same, then we have no right to complain about society not allowing us to wear what we want.

Just my opinion.

Bobbi
very true, I heard it was in the 1920's some film or something about joan of arc, claiming she wore men's clothing to wage war, and that caught on with the women of the time, and it was growing fairly quickly as acceptable. if men are going to be allowed to wear dresses, skirts or other fem clothing, we need to have a rallying point that makes more and more men want to wear those things too and as the transgendered we could push things forward to encourage this change once that rallying point whatever it is, is created. as it stands we might have a million of so TG MTF that go out dress in the US, there's are roughly 400 million people in the US. the TG community is a handful and unless something changes, society won't make this move for us...

[TxKimberly]

I think that your post takes something for granted though - you are taking it as a given that you would not be accepted. Don't get me wrong - I think that most of us are guilty of making that assumption. Here's the thing though! There is thread after thread after thread here showing that it's not true! There are a lot of people here that go out dressed as they want, including at least half a dozen I can think of that make no effort to present as women. They go out clearly being men wearing skirts etc and they tell us all about the great times they have.
I think that we tend to blame society for a lot of things that "they" are not guilty of.
(For the record, I sure as hell don't have the courage to try that, but I figure that is MY flaw and not societies)

[Sallee]

That was well said Rachael you made a great point the female in class was not trying to pass as a male she was just dressed like one. The males who go about their day in a dress and heels with perfume and make up but no forms or wig are trying to do the same thing I guess and maybe in due time that will not be looked on with disdain. Some how I don't think I'll see it. That may be cross dressing but for me I like to dress as a woman and be accepted as one in another word PASS. Whether I do or don't is open to discussion.

[Jonianne]

.....Do not mistake what you saw. Yes this girl can wear male clothing, but is not seen as cross dressing - it is seen as making a statement and being unique by other women. But at the same time I will be certain this is not what she would normally wear, it is more a one off "LOOK AT ME!" statement she made to get noticed by people like you and the other males at your college......

It is very likely she IS a fire / rescue dept personel and not trying to make any sort of statement at all! She probably has just come from work or is going to it.

Like previously mentioned, you could wear casual female cloths, including an appropiate skirt, and hardly get noticed at all, except maybe as a feminine male. Some on this forum do exactly that.

If you want to express yourself - "CARPE DIAM", rather than complain!

[Marcia Blue]

I understand what Paula was saying. A women can wear a man's outfit, even if she is not trying to present as a man. No one cares. A man dressing in womens clothes, however, will be at the least stared at and given a wide berth. I am not talking about womens jeans and t-shirts, but slacks/skirt, and a nice blouse. There really is a double standard.

As more of us have the courage to go out, in public, dressed, and interact with people, things could slowly change. This will take time and education. I just wish It would happen sooner than later.

[Gerrijerry]

If you want to wear feminine clothes to school you can. The fact that she is not affraid and you are is the real difference. If you dressed that way for a while no one would care.

[Paulah13]

Paula,
She was dressed like a man ,but did she act like a man.
Paulah13

[anonymousinmaryland]

Maybe, just maybe, she was a participant in a fire-training class in wanting to become a firefighter. It does happen (except for the baggy pants part.)

[Nigella]

I find this funny to see this thread still going seeing as I have stated much the same and gotten in trouble.

It is acceptable for a woman to take on entirely male looks, and not acceptable for a male to take on feminine looks.



The main difference with this thread compared to others is that there is no-one breaching the rules about what GGs can wear and how they portray themselves.

As for your comment about what is acceptable and what is not, only you as an individual can decided that, providing what you do is not against the law, that is when society has decided what is acceptable. To the best of my knowledge there is no reason/law in a democratic country that prevents males wearing what they wish, just as there is no reason/law preventing a female to wear what they wish.

As already commented, there are plenty of threads saying the total opposite of what you have said, the only reason why you do not see many GMs wearing a skirt or dress is simply they put their own barriers in the way. That is their choice, just don't blame society.

[carhill2mn]

There are a great many of us here that feel the same frustration (and have for many yrs.). We just need society to change - good luck with that!

[Kari Lynn Franks]

I will be there
Hmmm....


So... can we put together a million TG/CD/TS march and click our heels to Washington holding signs "We have the right to wear dresses"

[t-girlxsophie]

I think we have to get away from this idea expressed by some that only if you Pass,should you be considered a Succesful Crossdresser,I dont pass but I go out and about happy in myself that I have done my best,AND yes I have before on here questioned those that go half way,but thankfully I have been re-educated in my opinions by myself and Folk on here who express themselves in this way.Hey! theres many a "normal" person out there who's fashion can be an eye opener too

:hugs:Sophie xx

[Jamie001]

The statement made here about it not being worth the hassle it would cause is case and point about makes not having the courage to get out there and change things like women did when they started wearing men's clothing. When I see statements like this, it reenforces my opinion that crossdressers and TGs will not make progress and will always be in the closet. Sad.. sigh!


The reality of the situation is that society has allowed women to first power dress and then dress in men's styling. Soceity is sadly created by women and they dictate the terms of what is acceptable. They crossed into male dressing styles many years before I was even born, but where smart enough not to allow men the same freedom to cross into their territory.

Do not mistake what you saw. Yes this girl can wear male clothing, but is not seen as cross dressing - it is seen as making a statement and being unique by other women. But at the same time I will be certain this is not what she would normally wear, it is more a one off "LOOK AT ME!" statement she made to get noticed by people like you and the other males at your college.

Society is unfair, that sadly is the world we live in. You have two simple choices: Accept it or go against it (which means wearing female clothes in public). Most of us, just live with the first option... Even though I have worn female clothes in public, it is not something I will or would do often or locally. Not worth the hassle and issues it would cause.

Klaire

[kaitlinrenee]

hi i'm kaitlin, the thing is and this is just my opinion, and that is if people both men and women can accept, girls/women that dress, like a guy, then they need to learn to accept boys/men, who desire to dress like a girl, :)

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

These kinds of threads are a dime a dozen. Look, as long as men wearing "womens" clothes maintain this victim mentality they will remain exactly that, womens clothes. It's not because women seek to keep men down or because society is weird. We as a whole do not challenge society to understand that it's ok for us to dress as we prefer. Women *earned* the right to dress the way they want. It's up to us to do the same thing, or accept our lot in life. I chose the former.

[pamela_a]

You most certainly may wear what you want to class or anywhere else. What it sounds like to me is you want to dress like a woman but you're NOT WOMAN ENOUGH to deal with any potential negative implications or reactions. TOO BAD.. Get over it and quit crying about how nobody has gone ahead of you and made sure it save for you!! If you want to dress like a woman, pull up your big girl panties and do it. Nobody is stopping you but you.

Please don't dare tell me how difficult it is, or you're scared because somebody might point or laugh at you. Men can be such wussies, I swear. For the record NOTHING in my wardrobe was male 5 years BEFORE I even considered transitioning. I went about my life, family, and job wearing only clothing sold primarily to women ( I REFUSE to call it women's clothing.. it was MINE. but I digress). I dressed to fit in with the majority of women around me. Dress slacks, nice blouse, proper undergarments (I'm a natural 40D so there was no hiding the girls anyway) minimal make up and flats usually. Jeans and ladies Ts were also my friends. I dressed to blend in, NOT make the statement "HEY LOOK AT ME". You know what happened? Nothing. Life went on and nobody else seemed to care, or if they did they didn't make it a big deal to my face

I honestly believe if men had half the intestinal fortitude (and I'm not talking about the testosterone induced stuff) and intelligence women do there be a quick end to posts like this ( I want to but I CAN'T...Waa Waa Waa)

To my trans brothers who may read this please understand. I know there are many brave, strong, intelligent, and thoughtful men in the world ( I hope very much to find one to love some day, sooner rather than later) and I know as you continue your journey to be who you are there will be more. You DO understand what it takes and how strong you have to be to follow the dream and reach that goal.


"We have the right to wear dresses" Nobody said you didn't.


We just need society to change - good luck with that! There is only 1 person who can change society - YOU. Are YOU doing something about it or are you sitting on the sideline crying and complaining that someone else isn't doing it for you?

It looks like I'd better take a couple pamprin soon but it wouldn't change how I feel about it. The women you like to complain about being able to dress how they want didn't sit around waiting for someone else to take care if it for them, they DID SOMETHING. Now follow the womans' example.

[Stephenie S]

If you want to wear feminine clothes to school you can. The fact that she is not affraid and you are is the real difference. If you dressed that way for a while no one would care.

And HERE is the crux of the matter. She's doing it. You are still cowering in the closet.

You will NEVER be in a more accepting environment. Wear the darn skirt, hon.

Now, in the interest of honest disclosure, I have to say that when I was in school I was even more terrified that this. But I am looking back with some degree of experience and knowledge here. There was no internet back then. I had no support group to encourage me. Take this advice and think long and hard about it. Learn from other's experience.

Stephie

[Steph.TS]

You most certainly may wear what you want to class or anywhere else. What it sounds like to me is you want to dress like a woman but you're NOT WOMAN ENOUGH to deal with any potential negative implications or reactions. TOO BAD.. Get over it and quit crying about how nobody has gone ahead of you and made sure it save for you!! If you want to dress like a woman, pull up your big girl panties and do it. Nobody is stopping you but you.

Please don't dare tell me how difficult it is, or you're scared because somebody might point or laugh at you. Men can be such wussies, I swear. For the record NOTHING in my wardrobe was male 5 years BEFORE I even considered transitioning. I went about my life, family, and job wearing only clothing sold primarily to women ( I REFUSE to call it women's clothing.. it was MINE. but I digress). I dressed to fit in with the majority of women around me. Dress slacks, nice blouse, proper undergarments (I'm a natural 40D so there was no hiding the girls anyway) minimal make up and flats usually. Jeans and ladies Ts were also my friends. I dressed to blend in, NOT make the statement "HEY LOOK AT ME". You know what happened? Nothing. Life went on and nobody else seemed to care, or if they did they didn't make it a big deal to my face

I honestly believe if men had half the intestinal fortitude (and I'm not talking about the testosterone induced stuff) and intelligence women do there be a quick end to posts like this ( I want to but I CAN'T...Waa Waa Waa)

To my trans brothers who may read this please understand. I know there are many brave, strong, intelligent, and thoughtful men in the world ( I hope very much to find one to love some day, sooner rather than later) and I know as you continue your journey to be who you are there will be more. You DO understand what it takes and how strong you have to be to follow the dream and reach that goal.

Nobody said you didn't.

There is only 1 person who can change society - YOU. Are YOU doing something about it or are you sitting on the sideline crying and complaining that someone else isn't doing it for you?

It looks like I'd better take a couple pamprin soon but it wouldn't change how I feel about it. The women you like to complain about being able to dress how they want didn't sit around waiting for someone else to take care if it for them, they DID SOMETHING. Now follow the womans' example.
I painted my nails with nail polish last night for the first time, and I'm wearing fem jeans, I am planning on wearing both into work this coming week, and we'll see how it goes... you are right, but I like you am dressing to blend in, these may be fem clothes, but they look like ordinary jeans and the nail polish is clear, I would love to wear a dress into work or something but I don't think I can deal with the nasty comments that I could receive.

[johnboy23]

Another reason people would think it is wierd if you did dress like that, is because you think that way too. Change the way you think and you might be able to go dressed in some capris or bermuda shorts until you can go in a skirt or whatever you desire.

[kaitlinrenee]

how do i think that way too?, i think that if a man wants to dress as a woman, that is up to him, because, the person doing so is the one that has to deal with that, meaning the looks, the smart remarks, (ect.), :)

[Inna]

Ok I will stick my thick neck out here and hope my head don't roll.

Female body and form are agreed to be sensual, beautiful with all those soft curves and shapes our brains decipher them to be. And I am not talking thin or thick just most any. Dress this female in any cloth and they remain sensual, sexual, soft. Hence the accepted non sex specific look.

Man on the other hand is build for strength and his body is rather square and dynamic. Our brains pick on this and classify as hunter, fighter far from feminine or sensual but rather threatening or overpowering at best. It is only natural that if you dress this man in feminine clothing the scenario reads as: trap, something not computing, too many unanswered clews which raise red flags. Even a Scotsman wearing quilt in middle of town other that in Scotland raises eyebrows.

So NO! there is no such equation which interchanges clothing similarly for bot sexes. I goes deeper into presets of our brains we must deal with. Just like seeing birth of a child through mans privates would sand most of us running North.............or south for that matter.

[Sophie_C]

There are a great many of us here that feel the same frustration (and have for many yrs.). We just need society to change - good luck with that!

Exactly, and the catch is that only in the generation after the trailblazers will any true difference be felt. You literally have to burn a generation in society, make them seriously feel the brunt of the pain of all society, all slowly, bit by bit holding their ground, and eventually it will be better.... by the time most of them are dead.

It's that reality that truly sucks.

[kaitlinrenee]

i agree with what you're saying, :)

[Tima]

These kinds of threads are a dime a dozen. Look, as long as men wearing "womens" clothes maintain this victim mentality they will remain exactly that, womens clothes. It's not because women seek to keep men down or because society is weird. We as a whole do not challenge society to understand that it's ok for us to dress as we prefer. Women *earned* the right to dress the way they want. It's up to us to do the same thing, or accept our lot in life. I chose the former.

These kind of threads may be a “dime a dozen,” but there are new members here (like me) who haven’t been privy to topics already discussed ad nauseam. I agree, however, that we (as a whole) do not challenge society to understand why we crossdress. That would be a waste of time, IMHO, for reasons I have already outlined. It’s much more enjoyable to do it, and revel in being different, purely for the sake of one's happiness.
:)

[lingerieLiz]

Times have changed. In the 60s and 70s for a man to appear as a woman would get you time behind bars. In the 80s to mid 90s my wife and daughter were required to wear dresses to work. Until the 80s CDing was never talked about. Today women can wear men's clothing quite easily and I wear a lot of women's clothing openly. I've attended classes where the women wore casual clothes. If one showed up in skirt and heals she would be noted. I do agree it is easier for women to wear men's clothes today than vice versa. But, keep trudging times are a changing.

[susie evans]

i go out all the time dressed as i want be it man are womens clothes if you want to get noticed just over dress are undre dress for the ocassion , my wife and i were out to a nice restaurant last night i was susie and her her normal self no one even gave us a second look , i think a lot of times we get too caught up in perseptions that are not realy there , and you have to have self confidence also and remember knot many of us look like models any way

hugs susie

[Aprilrain]

I've been taught to share my experience strength and hope not my opinions. Not that that stops me however my experience as limited as it is is that when I'm out dressed as a woman some people notice some don't some chuckle under their breath some don't. Tonight I got ma,amed but I think it was because he wanted to hear my voice. I gave him my beast girlie "fine thank you" I could muster but I'm sure he was not convinced. Though these little encounters do get my little girlie heart thumping it's part of the thrill. Anyway no one has mentioned that most guys do not want to be thought of as effeminate so other than us FREAKS (I mean that in the most loving way possible) there is not a lot of momentum for guy skirts besides if every one starts wearing skirts what the hell will I cross dress in!

[paulaloha]

Oh wow... I stay offline for a day and my thread gets 39 posts, so after reading everyone's statements and points I hardly know where to begin.

First of all, please do not think that I am whining about this issue, that was not my intention at all, I was merely sharing an experience I had along with some thoughts.

I would have to agree with those of you that say that society is slowly starting to become more accepting of things like men wearing skirts and such. Society is more open minded but it isn't there yet.
I have tons of respect for those guys who are going out wearing feminine clothing and pushing the boundaries of the social norm. Whether they are going out attempting to pass as a woman or whether they just want to wear a skirt and heels, whatever floats their boat that day. Kudos to all of you who are doing this day in and day out. I personally am not there though.

Another thing that I have been wondering about while reading everyone's replies, please keep in mind this is me just thinking aloud, is if it isn't different for those of us that are younger. I think we might feel social pressure a little differently than those who have more experience in life. As someone said before that they would have been terrified to dress in feminine clothing in public when they were young, but now they do it after gaining more experience in life. Perhaps there are just different stages we go through socially in life. Once again I really am not speaking from much knowledge or experience, just thinking aloud. What does everyone else think about this?

And as for what johnboy said about wearing capri's and such. I already do wear capri's or 3/4 pants. I guess that is my own personal way of branching out into more feminine clothing. I also shave my legs from time to time and I guess that is something. I will say people usually don't care about my 3/4 pants or my shaved legs or anything like that, some guys come off rather curious actually. But for the time being I will admit to being chicken, I do care about what my friends and peers think about me and I think that wearing a skirt or such is still a big jump. I am not ready or willing to take the ridicule I "MIGHT" receive if I did this, and I am OK with that.

I wanted to thank everyone who spoke up, I did really enjoy reading everyone's perspective on this issue. And as for it being an old topic, I would like to agree with Tima in saying that many of us on this thread are relatively new members to the forum. I think that is just a reality of forums, I have experienced it on many other forums, there are just some issues that are more commonly brought up. It just takes a little patience from those who have been around longer.

Thanks everyone!

[Kylie666]

The way i see it is that Cross-dressing and Dressing in woman's clothes are two different things.

I think if done right (clean shave,long or long-ish hair,Maybe some makeup) And dressed in woman's clothes most people will not care and you'll look good, Your not going for passing as a Woman but just wearing whats meant to be for a woman "Same as if a Woman wears guy clothes"

Cross-dressing is not the Same, As your going for looking like a real woman not just a guy in woman's clothes, Witch is not to say a BAD thing just uneasy for some to understand "hell even some people doing it don't fully understand why"
For me i just like being a Girl some times, And maybe even want to be a fully on girl "I dream about it a lot" But really i am just trying to find myself and CD'ing is like a stepping stone for me to find myself (Not saying that's what everyone thinks" That's just me :)

Just like others have said in here, If the Girl was going for passing as male then she would have been getting looks just like if a Guy was trying to pass for a Girl.

[MsJenna]

There is nothing wrong with blazing the trail, so long as you are mentally and physically prepared for what may come from it. If your sense of self is not rock solid, if you are easily cowed or lack self-esteem, changing society is probably not the job for you.

I live in a small town (read redneck) and have gone out dressed in, obvious, femme jeans and shirts. No effort to pass, just wearing what I want, but I was also prepared for the possibility that my time out may turn ugly. Thankfully, it hasn't happened yet, but the chance is always there and I am always aware of it. I have to agree with the others who have stated that college is probably the most accepting place you will ever have. So, dress if you like,but be ready for whatever might get thrown your way.

In my experience, people very rarely want to build you up and very rarely pass an opportunity to tear you down.

Jenna.

[Starling]

I agree with Alexia that a woman dressing in men's clothing and a man dressing in clothing made for women are not simply two sides of the same coin. What follows is strictly my opinion, and is probably too general, but we don't have all day.

Men's clothing is looser and more concealing, less erotic, more practical--a woman can wear male duds to step off the vanity merry-go-round and relax, do homework, wash the car or paint the house. Quite often she will borrow her mate's clothes, which will be baggy on her, and she will look absolutely darling.

A man who puts on female garb is not doing it to be more comfortable or casual, but to make a statement. And if he does it only partially, without wig or makeup, as a man who feels he should have "an equal right to wear whatever he wants," the disjoint between his undenied gender and that of his clothes will be evident; he will be seen as provocative.

Both men and women who crossdress with a desire to pass as the other gender, or at least to be treated as the other, usually alter their appearance with appropriate accessories, wigs, makeup and shape-altering foundation garments. And if read, both are equally liable to get the old fisheye from unapproving "civilians."

Personally, I would not want to go dressed anywhere in public without making my best effort to present myself as I feel inside; to give myself the best chance to blend in. This has nothing to do with my right to be a man wearing women's clothes, and everything to do with my being accepted as a woman.

God, there's so much more to this whole issue, and so many different kinds of people, that almost anything we can say is vastly oversimplified. That there have been so many similar threads attests to our past failures.

:) Lallie

[kaitlinrenee]

as long as you are one gender and you dress as the other, than it is crossdressing. :)

[Starling]

True, but trivial.

:) Lallie

[Briana90802]

You're forgetting one thing. If you change from drab to drag people will notice.

I like to mix my styles in drab. So at the beginning of a semester I'll wear all black and paint my nails black, almost goth-like. Then another week I'll be all surfer style clothing. This freaks people out and keeps them from guessing what kind of person that I am.:doh:

So naturally if you were to dress from day one en femme then I don't think anyone would notice or care. It's when you do something that is different from one(or week) day to the next. People are biologically programmed to notice when something is different.

I'm sure you notice that most everyone dresses the same (style wise) each week and that when they change that style you notice.

My advice: if you're going to start dressing en femme do it slowly. Or just do it at the beginning and then all the way through.:D

[Starling]

Or you could stay inside the house until everyone forgets who you are, and then come back done up however you want.

:heehee: Lallie

[Debra Russell]

Well I have read all of this, through it all the one thing I thought of and has always been my reasoning is that girls/women are cute cuddly pretty soft alluring and all the things that the male gender is not! No matter how they dress they shine through. If they want to pass as male its more difficult but if they are just putting on male attire they are cute--they are female GG When I dress I want to pass, I want to be cute and feminine and just putting on a pair of pumps and ear rings aint gonna do it -- as a pair of boots and flannel shirt aint gonna do it for a girl if she wants to pass but I don't think that was in the girl in the class rooms intentions --- Thats the beauty of being a GG girl ! Acceptance has nothing to do with it. Lets face it, we aint cute or cuddly, we have to try harder. If we just want to put on femm things we will get looks the same as the GG girl but she is a GG girl and can get away with it (refere back to cute and cuddly)

I know this is a hard thing to get straight and seems unfair but as I see it that's how it is. Debra

[paulaloha]

Debra, I couldn't agree more!

Girls are cute and cuddly and well, they are girls. Something us men are not regardless of how we dress or how we view ourselves inside.
God made them girls and us men, whether we disagree with what he made or not doesn't change the fact that he made us who we are. And he put us in the right bodies according to his plan. But we can still dress and have fun and I don't think God has a problem with that at all!

[Starling]

My experience is that as soon as we attempt to put in writing an airtight theory of all, or any part, of this gender mishegas, we wind up gasping for oxygen. It's not true that all women are cute, cuddly and alluring. (People who believe that never met my ninth-grade biology teacher.) However, most women are certainly more cute, cuddly and alluring than most men. But that depends. Aren't there some really cute, cuddly and alluring men?

And how do we define "women" and "men" in the first place?

Abstract categories are...Let me start that again...It would take an infinite number (okay, six billion or so) categories to include every...No...Attitudes about gender are as fluid as gender itself...and it's not even worth the effort it takes to finish this sentence.

Seriously people, the beating heart of this place is our life stories. The fact that almost every thread that tries to make them fit set patterns devolves into insults and hurt feelings proves that it's an impossible task. Or not.

:heehee: Lallie

[vivianann]

I go out in public wearing dresses all the time, life is tooo short to keep hiding who I am and what I lke to wear, when I am dressed as a woman most peaple dont even notice, and the ones who do, they are very supportive of my choice to dress as a woman. We do not need to pass to dress in todays society, I know I dont pass 100%, but I dont care because I would rather peaple see that I am a male who chooses to dress as a female. Just recently I was at a convenience store getting something to snack on, when I arrived there was a bunch of ladies in there tennis outfits there, I bought my snacks, then left, today the cashier told me that there was a bet going on between 2 of the ladies if I was a man in a dress or a woman, they asked the cashier if I were a man or woman, she told them I was a man, they told her that I pulled it off very well, and that the only reason the one lady thought I was a man because she heard my voice when I was talking to the cashier. They told her that they would like to meet me again when dressed, I am going to do it. I like to wear dresses when out in public enfemme, I have discovered that by wearing conservative dresses that you see some women wear when they are working in the office or out and about that most peaple dont even notice, women smile at me all the time, and some even give me compliments, I cannot ask for better treatment than that. I have said many times in other threads, that we need to be seen by society more often to be accepted, I am doing my part, and I am calling on my fellow sisters in the cd/tg community that we need do what the women has done 50 yrs ago, and get out in our dresses and skirts and show the world that we can wear feminine clothing just like women can wear masculine clothing. Society will not hold us back, it is us that that are holding ourseves back. I know that right now some of us cannot dress because of marriage and family, but the rest of us who can dress should do it now, so that the trail can be blazed for all who want to wear dresses out in society.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Female body and form are agreed to be sensual, beautiful with all those soft curves and shapes our brains decipher them to be. And I am not talking thin or thick just most any. Dress this female in any cloth and they remain sensual, sexual, soft. Hence the accepted non sex specific look.

Man on the other hand is build for strength and his body is rather square and dynamic. Our brains pick on this and classify as hunter, fighter far from feminine or sensual but rather threatening or overpowering at best. It is only natural that if you dress this man in feminine clothing the scenario reads as: trap, something not computing, too many unanswered clews which raise red flags. Even a Scotsman wearing quilt in middle of town other that in Scotland raises eyebrows.

I chose your version of this particular argument in this thread because the girls are "cute and cuddly" one sort of made me nauseous. I understand where you are coming from with your point of view, but I don't think it is as hardwired or primal a mental thing as you seem to think it is. By that I mean, the things that we see as feminine or masculine are so much more objective than we give them credit for. Take a look at the tribal cultures that still exist in Africa where men who are *actually* hunters dress in bright colored, skirt and dress-like clothing with flowers and even paint their faces. Or go back in time to the founding fathers of the United States, who wore wigs and stockings and makeup and were highly masculine men.

The kilted man outside of Scotland raises eyebrows not because it feels like a "trap" but simply because it is not that commonly seen. And the fact is, there was a point in history in Scotland where it would be the absolute most common thing to see a man wearing, and wouldn't raise an eyebrow. Thus, this is clearly a subjective issue, and therefore does not speak to natural assumptions.



So NO! there is no such equation which interchanges clothing similarly for bot sexes. I goes deeper into presets of our brains we must deal with. Just like seeing birth of a child through mans privates would sand most of us running North.............or south for that matter.

This is absolutely a false equivalency. Childbirth is something that is physically impossible for the male body, where as wearing a skirt or a dress is simply not socially common. There is however a vast wealth of historical examples to highlight that it is not only physically possible, but aesthetically pleasing.

Now on to LALady,




Men's clothing is looser and more concealing, less erotic, more practical--a woman can wear male duds to step off the vanity merry-go-round and relax, do homework, wash the car or paint the house. Quite often she will borrow her mate's clothes, which will be baggy on her, and she will look absolutely darling.

First of "Absolutely darling"? Please. She looks like someone who is bumming around in baggy clothing, which by the way there's nothing wrong with, the whole point is that she's not worrying about her looks and is just trying to get some work done. Women are not magical creatures for whom every cut of clothing automatically shapes to their body to make them look great. Women are beautiful, absolutely and I adore them infinitely. But look, I work in a hardware store and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt there's plenty of women who come in dressed in baggy, work clothing who don't look remotely "darling," nor is it their intention to at all.

Then there's also the whole world of women who wear men's formal wear. Today they tend to have it made for them but I know lots of girls who still hit the men's section of thrift stores for stuff like vests. Is this to be more casual and comfortable or is it to make a statement?


A man who puts on female garb is not doing it to be more comfortable or casual, but to make a statement. And if he does it only partially, without wig or makeup, as a man who feels he should have "an equal right to wear whatever he wants," the disjoint between his undenied gender and that of his clothes will be evident; he will be seen as provocative.

I disagree. I absolutely find skirts more comfortable than pants. However, I'll concede that I am trying to make a statement when I add in stuff like tights or women's boots. That statement is, "Hey I look really good in this stuff, and I'm going to wear it." I'm sure I'm seen as provocative, now. But if more and more men did it, would I be seen as such in ten years?

[Inna]

I chose your version of this particular argument in this thread because the girls are "cute and cuddly" one sort of made me nauseous. I understand where you are coming from with your point of view, but I don't think it is as hardwired or primal a mental thing as you seem to think it is. By that I mean, the things that we see as feminine or masculine are so much more objective than we give them credit for. Take a look at the tribal cultures that still exist in Africa where men who are *actually* hunters dress in bright colored, skirt and dress-like clothing with flowers and even paint their faces. Or go back in time to the founding fathers of the United States, who wore wigs and stockings and makeup and were highly masculine men.

The kilted man outside of Scotland raises eyebrows not because it feels like a "trap" but simply because it is not that commonly seen. And the fact is, there was a point in history in Scotland where it would be the absolute most common thing to see a man wearing, and wouldn't raise an eyebrow. Thus, this is clearly a subjective issue, and therefore does not speak to natural assumptions.




This is absolutely a false equivalency. Childbirth is something that is physically impossible for the male body, where as wearing a skirt or a dress is simply not socially common. There is however a vast wealth of historical examples to highlight that it is not only physically possible, but aesthetically pleasing.

Now on to LALady,



First of "Absolutely darling"? Please. She looks like someone who is bumming around in baggy clothing, which by the way there's nothing wrong with, the whole point is that she's not worrying about her looks and is just trying to get some work done. Women are not magical creatures for whom every cut of clothing automatically shapes to their body to make them look great. Women are beautiful, absolutely and I adore them infinitely. But look, I work in a hardware store and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt there's plenty of women who come in dressed in baggy, work clothing who don't look remotely "darling," nor is it their intention to at all.

Then there's also the whole world of women who wear men's formal wear. Today they tend to have it made for them but I know lots of girls who still hit the men's section of thrift stores for stuff like vests. Is this to be more casual and comfortable or is it to make a statement?



I disagree. I absolutely find skirts more comfortable than pants. However, I'll concede that I am trying to make a statement when I add in stuff like tights or women's boots. That statement is, "Hey I look really good in this stuff, and I'm going to wear it." I'm sure I'm seen as provocative, now. But if more and more men did it, would I be seen as such in ten years?

I do see your point, and social pressure dictating rights and wrongs as well. Lets envision, for the sake of coming to a conclusion (if there is such) human body with its intricacies and subtle differences. To an alien species who just arrived on this planet and unfamiliar with human form both of our sexes look nearly identical. Both have same features but represented in different amount and scale, even when it comes to genitalia mostly same ingredients just arranged bit differently. We as male and female have been programmed to pick up on these small variations and the site of female genitalia raises males natural instincts to boiling point. What makes female appear comfortable in aether apparel and what makes a manly man appear out of the comfort zone in woman's apparel. Is it strictly societal conditioning or is there a more primal mechanism at work? I agree with weighting society as culprit especially when focusing on 17century France and surrounding Europe. Almost all the upper class attire consists of feminine for both sexes. Crossdressing galore! All with high heels, stockings, wigs, but separated nevertheless, and here is the shocker, no interchange of clothing from female to male!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yet again, no solution, male attire even though very feminine, and female attire stay separate. I am coming to a conclusion that wearing female clothing is a statement of assimilating to something male is not! and hence the revolt within the society of wrongful pretend. I suppose it goes deeper into the psyche of natural instinct and betrayal or self preservation where one can mistake male for female and abort otherwise fruitful scenario. ???????????????????

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

First off I made a typo in my post that I just now noticed, I said more objective when I meant SUBjective. Just wanted to clear that up. I was writing in a hurry while getting ready to work.

I think the French revolution had a lot more to do with the decadence of the aristocracy weighed against the suffering of the commoners than it did with the fashion sense.

I think we actually have a similar viewpoint but are giving it different origins. You seem to think we view the sexes differently as a primal instinctual nature, where as I think it is as a result of centuries of patriarchal society. Culture still incorrectly programs us as believing men are stronger than women so a woman dressing as a man does is bettering her station where as a man dressing as a woman is weakening himself. I take the side of nuture vs nature in this argument, especially considering that in the animal kingdom, males tend to be more decorated than females.

Oddly enough though it is the very discrepancy that we can agree that exists that makes me so staunchly against the concept of "passing." I think that by trying to present as women, we play into the very social constructs that continue to keep this schism alive. Especially by wearing garments designed to transform the male figure into female we are saying this is not ok to be a male doing this, part of me must be female. This is not what the type of girl the OP was discussing is doing. She's finding the clothes that actually work for her body, her figure. This is something women are trained at a young age to do but the same is not true for men. Even strictly speaking in drab clothes most men don't wear clothes that fit them, yet when they make the special effort to do so the look is usually impressive. Girls go crazy for a sharp dressed man, as it were. I try when dressing in womens clothing, to find the best items that work to compliment my actual body. In doing so, I have been frequently complimented by women on my personal style. As such, I believe it is absolutely possible for a man to adopt feminine aspects into his style, without shattering the world.

[Starling]

...I think that by trying to present as women, we play into the very social constructs that continue to keep this schism alive...we are saying this is not ok to be a male doing this, part of me must be female...

I try when dressing in womens clothing, to find the best items that work to compliment my actual body...

First off, Ryan, you'll see I used "absolutely darling" (from your earlier post) with irony, if you examine the rest of its paragraph. And I hope you did read my subsequent post, which reflects my true, global sentiments on this subject.

Your psychological explanation of crossdressing may be relevant to some, including you, although logically it fails completely to address our FTM friends. Besides, most gender experts now believe that we are all programmed by a gender-fixing "hormone wash" which occurs in the womb and most of the time reinforces the sex of the fetus, but in some cases is in conflict with it to one degree or another, creating various permutations along a continuum. In other words, nature determines gender, and not always harmoniously with sex.

The hell of it is that when there is a conflict, one feels a schism (to borrow your term) in oneself, often from an early age, well before one can form opinions based on preconceptions or social constructs. Setting aside the I think the real danger of the social gender dichotomy is that so many of us are placed on the wrong side because our minds don't match our bodies.

Of course we can choose to deal with our dilemma in various ways. One is by denying it altogether. Another way is to spend a lifetime trying to find what makes us happy. But the mind is always going to prevail, one way or the other. Acceptance leads to social opposition and abuse, disclocation and unhappiness, but can also bring inner peace and a satisfying resolution. Denial can paste over the dissonance for awhile, but it often leads to guilt and shame, alcoholism, drug abuse, or the evangelical ministry*.

I feel that I am, by nature, a woman--or more woman than man, which could describe many women--and that my most appropriate gender expression would be as a woman. Of course, we are first of all human, and as such do not always fit into neat classifications. But as I look back on many of the characteristics I have always disliked about myself as a man, I realize they add up to a womanish person. And many others--including the worst--are defensive, distorted, pseudo-male behaviors.

I may be limited in my ability to reify my femininity, but I do the best I can according to my life circumstances. You say that certain female garments feel more comfortable to you, like skirts. Well, I feel most comfortable when I am dressed in clothes made for women, that fit me; and make-up and hair; and when I have a few hours to bathe in the serenity I feel.

You seem to be happy being a guy, which is terrific. But you're a gender rebel, not so much in wearing skirts, perhaps, but in donning feminine accessories. You may or may not have as part of you any significant proportion of femininity, and just like to mess with social norms, but only time will tell for sure.

Just to be clear: while I believe that gender dichotomy is a natural and useful thing, I don't believe gender should be used to enforce artificial social, political or economic limits on anyone. We may be different in some very important ways, but we have equal rights to make the most of ourselves.

:) Lallie

*with no disrespect intended to rank-and-file Christians