"We can't help it" isn't acceptance/respect

[Amanda22]

I was listening to the psychiatry show on Sirius/XM Doctor Radio this morning. The guest was a woman psychiatrist specializing in LGBT clients and involved in activism in New York state. Most of the discussion, driven by callers and emailers, concerned the idea that those who are gay or lesbian are born that way and don't learn/choose whatever preferences they may happen to have.

Then she said something that really got my attention. She said that the discussion of "we can't help it because we're born that way" is really not helpful at all. It is like saying that people of color deserve a seat at the dinner table because they can't help having skin that is of different pigmentation. While this appears on the surface as "accepting", it's just saying "you can't help it, but there's still something wrong with you."

She went on to say, "so what if LGBT people did totally choose to live the life they're living and chemistry at birth or whatever other theories were all false? What is so damned wrong with that?" She didn't mention crossdressers but I personally include us in the "T" of LGBT.

I know that I've always been a crossdresser and will forever be. I know I had no choice in this and I love that I am a crossdresser. Maybe the current public discussions that 10% of the population is homosexual (or whatever), and it isn't a choice, is a step in the right direction of social evolution. I don't know. But I agree with the doctor I heard that it is just a tiny, tiny step and is not to be confused with acceptance. What anyone really wants and deserves is simply to be respected for who they are, regardless of anything else, including how or why they got to where they are. Just being is justification enough. That may be a description of a utopian society, but it's really the only acceptable way for me to be viewed as a crossdresser. I guess I'm a dreamer :battingeyelashes:

[Tracy X Cruz]

I wish I had heard the entire thing, but if I am getting the right message here, I like what this person is saying.

In a way saying "we can't help it we're born that way" is like saying " we want to be something else but can't". And I can definitely see where that is very hindering to what we want. Although saying "we choose to live this way" invites problems of it's own and isn't always completely true...

It really should be something like "I was born this way, and I choose to be this way" which may have it's own problems, but in general the idea that needs to get across is whether born or chosen, others need to respect LGBT and CDs for who they are. Not just accept cause they have no choice, because we have no choice.

[Sarah Michelle]

from a slightly different perspective; my step-son is gay. He doesn't apologize for being gay but when he has been quizzed by small minds in social settings, he will resort to the "I was born this way" response. Its in the context of stating that he didn't choose to be an object of derision or discussion. He didn't choose a life-style that causes him to second-guess many of the reactions he gets from people. He didn't choose to take on a life partner with whom he will never be able to have children in the most common way, (he will have children, they may or may not be his, those decisons are yet to be made) but it is his life and he lives it his way.
So, as accepting as he is of who he is, he still needs the response "I didn't choose" to put small minds in their place. To us, "we can't help it' isn't saying "we want to be something-else", it more like a very polite way of asking "how naive and small-minded are you anyway?"
If you wind his mother up, she'll just ask you how stupid you really are. A bit of a grizzly when it comes to her young.

[Karren H]

Change channels to Sirus 111... Cosmo's Wakeup with Taylor in the morning. I've been getting plenty of respect as a nice person that happens to be a crossdresser... And why are you listen to a Medical Show when this is not a medical issue??

[GaleWarning]

I wonder if saying, "we can't help it because we're born that way" isn't a way of trying to avoid responsibility for the consequences of the way one chooses to live one's life ...
:daydreaming:

Before anyone starts jumping up and down, let me elaborate ...

I am a CDer. Exactly why, I have no way of knowing. Perhaps it is genetic, perhaps not. It's the old "nature vs nurture debate" which continues to rage.

It doesn't really matter. What does matter is that I have come to the realisation that the urge to CD will never go away. And consequently, I have come to the realisation that I have to take responsibility for the way I choose to lead my life, as a result of being a CDer.

I have to choose whether of not to come out to my SO or other loved ones; I have to choose whether or not to go out in public; I have to choose whether or not my needs and wants are more important than those who share my life; ...

In other words, the fact that I am a CDer does not absolve me from the need to take personal responsibility, should I choose to do something foolish, and instead, simply blame the CDing or someone other than myself for any resulting consequences.

Let me give you one concrete example from a very public figure here in NZ ...

We have an MP who is openly gay. Down the years, he has abused the priviledges of his position many times. On every occasion, when he has been publicly criticised for his actions, he has steadfastly refused to simply accept responsibility for the things he has done. On numerous occasions, when the heat was getting too much for him, he would accuse his critics of "gay bashing".

We may well have had no choice in being born gay or a CDer, but we can and must accept that we do have the choice as to how we live our lives.

[Amanda22]

It doesn't really matter. What does matter is that I have come to the realisation that the urge to CD will never go away. And consequently, I have come to the realisation that I have to take responsibility for the way I choose to lead my life, as a result of being a CDer.

clayfish, that is a really good point. I agree that it doesn't matter. The how/why is definitely a secondary topic. It reminds me of people who live in the past and that's all they talk about. The present is more relevant as the tagline in your avatar says...

[Kaz]

Just thought I'd throw my loose change into the pot!

The choice issue has made a lot of pop psychologists/life coaches etc.. a lot of money. The fact is that we some choices - we do not get to choose everything. We get to choose how we deal with it, but that is a different issue. I have heard crap about people "choosing" to get cancer, to get knocked down by a car, etc... They didn't... sometimes things are an unforseen consequence of our actions, sometimes they are the way are because of genes, or circumstances totally out of our control.

Apologies if I have upset anyone here but this choice issue really p****s me off.

My choice is to express my CD side when I can. What I do with it is my choice. But I didn't choose this state. I can however choose not to burden others with it... but others on this site will say that is witholding and therefore "lying". I can choose to tell the world, but some would say "I didn't need to know that, and I wish you hadn't told me".

We are dealt a certain card set. Our choices are in how we deal with that.

xx

[sissystephanie]

Saying that you were born a CD and can't do anything about it is a very poor way of accepting life. Nobody was "born a CD!" The choice to put on clothing of the opposite sex was yours entirely, unless you were forced to by your parents or someone else. You may have had the desire, but unless force was used against you the choice was entirely yours!

Saying that you can't stop dressing because you were born that way is entirely wrong. You may have been born with the desire, but you alone made the choice to carry it through! And you alone can stop it any time you want! All that is required is the willpower to quit!! It is simply the lack of that willpower that makes CD's say that they can't stop!! It is not something that is in their bodies when they are born, it is just a lack of willpower!! I stopped once for a 5 year period, and only started up again because my late wife begged me to! If my current GG friend asked me to stop dressing enfemme, I would so immediately! My mind controls my body, and I control my mind. Not something that may have been in my body at birth, just me myself!!

As has been said, we do have a choice how we live our lives!!

[GaleWarning]

Kaz and sissystephanie, both of you need to re-read my post.
You have missed my point entirely!

The last sentence in each of your posts, is exactly the point I am making!

[Rianna Humble]

Then she said something that really got my attention. She said that the discussion of "we can't help it because we're born that way" is really not helpful at all. It is like saying that people of color deserve a seat at the dinner table because they can't help having skin that is of different pigmentation. While this appears on the surface as "accepting", it's just saying "you can't help it, but there's still something wrong with you."

I think I understand the point, but don't think I agree with it. Saying "We were born this way" is a mere statement of fact. It is normally used to counter the argument of those who despise us because we are different to them. I definitely didn't choose to be TS - in fact I fought it with all my might for over 45 years. The "choice" I made was to accept who I am rather than take the final solution in the fight against who I am.

Did I "choose" to transition? In some ways yes and in some ways no insofar as I could no longer live with my pre-transiiton self. Do I have choices as to how I live as a woman? Definitely and it is down to me to see that those choices continue to have a positive impact around me. Do I have a choice as to whether I live as a woman? Yes, I can choose not to live.

I do not use the argument from the original quote in the sense that the psychiatrist seems to suggest (i.e. "give me respect despite there being something wrong with me"). I use it in the sense of "this is who I am, I deserve as much respect as any other human being".

[sterling12]

When we Gurls are Out and About, hangin' in Some Dubious Bistro; quite often people come up, engage in a conversation and start asking questions.

Favorite Number One Question is: "why are you like this?" And like Clayfish, being honest we all say "We Don't know....this is just The Way we are." If I am lucky and can interject a thought, I will often add: "Although we don't know The Why's, we have reached our only sane solution that's available....to accept ourselves." "We don't need YOUR acceptance, but your tolerance would be nice." "That seems like The Logical Thing for everybody!"

Saying, "That's just The Way we are" might be akin to "We were born that way." But if we answer a direct question from a Lay-Person, how can we avoid it? Most "Civilians" in Bars don't want to read, nor hear about Medical and Psych Theories. They want An Explanation! So if I could have asked her a Question on That Show, it would have been: "OK, what Reasoning do you wish us to use?" Since my "flirt" with being Transgendered started around age Three, I don't imagine that I was taught, or decided to be this particular way. I sure wouldn't use an explanation like that!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Fab Karen]

I've never heard a self-respecting person say "I can't help it" when talking about something innate like sexuality. People do say "I was born this way" which is a different statement. The comparison with black people in this society is apt as they were once treated as less important, not equals among society, and had basic rights denied them. Eventually that ignorant vision of black people lost support as being mainstream, and they won legal rights, just as gay people are on the verge now of getting full rights as members of society.

[sissystephanie]

Clayfish, I wasn't arguing with you. I was trying, in my own way, to restate what you were saying. I think we both are thinking the same way!!

[Amanda22]

I'm very new to this forum but I'm learning what types of posts just aren't worth it. I feel bad that I started a thread that touched some sensitive nerves. It's not the norm, but on occasion I can be pretty bad at accurately and effectively communicating what's on my mind and this was one of them. I'll stick to safe topics henceforth, like "what're you wearing today?" Actually, that's too fluffy for my interest. Sorry, no offense intended.

[Aprilrain]

Amanda this is a good thread honey don't worry about it! I agree with what I think the doc was trying to say. What difference does it make if I choose to dress or was born with an overwhelming urge to do so. You don't have to approve you just have to show the same tolerance that everyone eles deserves. Now let just hope that astorid doesnt hit earth and send civilization spiraling back into the dark ages again. I guess if it does my aim is just as good in a dress as it is in pants. In my tribe anybody can wear whatever they want! Guess I better learn to sew.

[GaleWarning]

Clayfish, I wasn't arguing with you. I was trying, in my own way, to restate what you were saying. I think we both are thinking the same way!!

Ah, so it was I who misunderstood what you were saying ... I'm sorry!
And happy that we are on the same wavelength.
(Thinks: I really should switch from AM to FM.)
:daydreaming:

[Jamie001]

I don't agree with this assessment. Some of us were born this way and have a very strong feminine component to our personality that cannot be suppressed. Some of us have attempted to suppress this side of our selves for many years and have faced drug addiction, severe depression, and even suicide attempts. For many of us, it is not as simple as just not putting on the clothing.


Saying that you were born a CD and can't do anything about it is a very poor way of accepting life. Nobody was "born a CD!" The choice to put on clothing of the opposite sex was yours entirely, unless you were forced to by your parents or someone else. You may have had the desire, but unless force was used against you the choice was entirely yours!

Saying that you can't stop dressing because you were born that way is entirely wrong. You may have been born with the desire, but you alone made the choice to carry it through! And you alone can stop it any time you want! All that is required is the willpower to quit!! It is simply the lack of that willpower that makes CD's say that they can't stop!! It is not something that is in their bodies when they are born, it is just a lack of willpower!! I stopped once for a 5 year period, and only started up again because my late wife begged me to! If my current GG friend asked me to stop dressing enfemme, I would so immediately! My mind controls my body, and I control my mind. Not something that may have been in my body at birth, just me myself!!

As has been said, we do have a choice how we live our lives!!

[GaleWarning]

The point being made, Jamie, is this ...

People choose to take drugs, people choose to be weaned off of drugs.
People who commit suicide make several personal choices; first, the decision itself, then the method, then the place and time ...

I'm glad to perceive that you are a survivor. Well done!

[Satrana]

I agree the response that "we were born this way" has a defeatist element to it because it is normally deployed as a defensive statement in response to a line of questioning. There is a defacto acceptance that there is something weird or wrong about a man expressing femininity hence the need to deflect responsibility by claiming the issue is out of our hands.

I think a healthier approach would be to accept that it is perfectly normal to choose to be this way. The nature/nurture debate is irrelevant to the issue of receiving acceptance and respect from others. So if asked to explain why your crossdress, a better answer is "Because this is who I am, this makes me happy. What is your problem?"

See, the real problem is the ignorance and intolerance surrounding gender issues. The burden is actually on the questioner to explain why they have an issue with the concept in the first place. Our answer should be designed to make them think about their POV rather than present a defensive response (which for most CDs is not even true) and then hope for sympathy and tolerance. "You poor thing, you can't help it, it was not your choice"

[Jeanna]

I'm very new to this forum but I'm learning what types of posts just aren't worth it. I feel bad that I started a thread that touched some sensitive nerves. It's not the norm, but on occasion I can be pretty bad at accurately and effectively communicating what's on my mind and this was one of them. I'll stick to safe topics henceforth, like "what're you wearing today?" Actually, that's too fluffy for my interest. Sorry, no offense intended.

It's difficult not to find a topic that doesn't get sensitive because we are dealing with our own feelings most of the time. I'm not interested in "what colour panties are you wearing today either" who cares?lol

I understood what you were trying to get across perfectly well, Thanks for the thread.
Jeanna

[Josey]

It's healthy to vent our feelings here. I don't always agree with some responces but still respect others points of view. This is the exactly why I'm in this forum!

[Gerrijerry]

after reading all these posts I feel that having to defend yourself is really the problem. Apparentently it is ok for others to put us all on the defensive. I for one am tired of defending who I feel I am and the way I want to dress and live.

[Amanda22]

I agree the response that "we were born this way" has a defeatist element to it because it is normally deployed as a defensive statement in response to a line of questioning. There is a defacto acceptance that there is something weird or wrong about a man expressing femininity hence the need to deflect responsibility by claiming the issue is out of our hands.

I think a healthier approach would be to accept that it is perfectly normal to choose to be this way. The nature/nurture debate is irrelevant to the issue of receiving acceptance and respect from others. So if asked to explain why your crossdress, a better answer is "Because this is who I am, this makes me happy. What is your problem?"

See, the real problem is the ignorance and intolerance surrounding gender issues. The burden is actually on the questioner to explain why they have an issue with the concept in the first place. Our answer should be designed to make them think about their POV rather than present a defensive response (which for most CDs is not even true) and then hope for sympathy and tolerance. "You poor thing, you can't help it, it was not your choice"

Satrana, You expressed in written form what I was thinking so much better than I did! Thank you. I'm actually going to save your post to my list of favorite quotes. You hit the nail on the head perfectly.

[Amanda22]

I understood what you were trying to get across perfectly well, Thanks for the thread.

Thanks so much, Jeanna!

[Amanda22]

Amanda this is a good thread honey don't worry about it! I agree with what I think the doc was trying to say. What difference does it make if I choose to dress or was born with an overwhelming urge to do so. You don't have to approve you just have to show the same tolerance that everyone eles deserves. Now let just hope that astorid doesnt hit earth and send civilization spiraling back into the dark ages again. I guess if it does my aim is just as good in a dress as it is in pants. In my tribe anybody can wear whatever they want! Guess I better learn to sew.

Aprilrain, I think that some of us just get so tired of feeling defensive and having to explain ourselves. We reach a point of "what difference does it make if I choose to dress or was born with an overwhelming urge to do so" as you said. For those that want to dwell on the "whys", that's great. For me, it just is what it is, it's not going away (not that I'd want it to), so I'd rather focus my attention on becoming the best girl I can be, which is a positive approach. As Satrana stated, I want to develop the attitude that what I do is totally normal and those who have a problem with it are bearing the burden, not me.

[juno]

I like to compare it to anchovies on pizza. Most people don't like it, some really like it. Nobody asks why some people eat anchovies. They just do. They still can eat pizza without anchovies, but prefer not to. (Not to say that they should eat pizzas without anchovies; it is their choice.) Gender issues should be the same. Some people have different preferences in life, for whatever reason, but people should not get all stressed out about it.

[sometimes_miss]

See, the real problem is the ignorance and intolerance surrounding gender issues. The burden is actually on the questioner to explain why they have an issue with the concept in the first place.
I think that many of us use the concept that our desire to crossdress is something beyond our conscious choice in order to get people off our backs. The vast majority who have issue with crossdressing aren't intelligent enough to understand all the psychological principles involved, so rather than get into a long discussion that they aren't going to be able to grasp anyway, we just use the simplist explanation that we think they might accept.

[Satrana]

I think that many of us use the concept that our desire to crossdress is something beyond our conscious choice in order to get people off our backs. A perfectly reasonable use!

[Kylie666]

Ok after reading most the post on here i just had to say some things lol

For me I am not 100% sure why i dress, I know i like it and i know it feels good and i love looking like a woman, BUT... can i stop?... Sure, Yeah i believe could stop if i wanted to or had to, But i don't think that goes for everyone out there.

For people that are G/L/TV/TG I don't think they have much of a choice... well they do, But that choice will leave them depressed or miserable there whole life or worse.

I guess saying everyone has a choice is in a way "right" but still not the only answer.

Really i think everyone should just stop trying to make sense of it and just accept people for who they are or at best tolerate them, There's no reason to hate a person just because there different.

[TinaMc]

Good topic. I tend to agree. It's not that "I can't help it". In reality it's just me. People spend far too much time rationalising their behaviour.