Holier than thou attitude going on right now... [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

CharlotteCD

10-15-2010, 05:29 AM

I am noticing a real attitude on this forum at the moment saying "don't do this, don't do that" and "oh just admit it to people"

Maybe some people can't admit it - everybody has reasons. Maybe they would get kicked out of their home, maybe they could lose their job. Something they do as a hobby isn't worth ruining their life.

Maybe some people need to borrow clothes in order to satisfy their need to cd because they don't have the confidence to go and buy their own, or they fear ordering clothes in case the parcel goes to a family member.

I just read in another thread "its not helping the image of crossdressers"

Get over yourself, the image of a cd won't change for anybody born in my generation and I am only 22. It will take years and a lot more acceptance before people are easily accepted.

I am sure I am not the only person who hates coming on this site and reading that I am a terrible person for borrowing clothes without permission and that I should just man up (girl up?) and tell people.

Situation isn't right to change either of those things right now.

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

Shari

10-15-2010, 05:49 AM

Great thread Charlotte.

Stand by for the backlash.
I'm sure this will get more than one pair of panties in a bunch.

vetobob9

10-15-2010, 05:49 AM

I have not seen anyone trying to force anyone to admit anything. I do have a thread complaining about a small minority. But I am not telling anyone they have to tell anyone anything. What you do in private is your business.

We all borrow things without asking, including me. Often we don't stop to consider that when we do this, the people we are borrowing from might consider it stealing because we did not ask.

I found there are alternatives to buying from the store such as the internet. But if you are married or have a significant other that is used to opening your mail, that may not be an option. The main point of the taking clothes was that its unsanitary.

We all need to remember that what we do can have a negative impact on those we care about and on larger communities.

People who are ready to come out of the closet on their own time and on their own terms. No one is going to force them out, unless they are caught "borrowing" without consent. But if you are forced out by someone who catches you wearing their stuff, are they not more likely to assume less of you? If you "borrowed" their intimates without their consent?

There is no need to be self defensive. Just consider how would you feel if you caught a stranger in your home wearing your intimates. Or if you came home and caught your husband wearing your things and he never mentioned his hobby to you in all the years you have been married to him.

Kathryn Martin

10-15-2010, 05:56 AM

Karren H

10-15-2010, 06:20 AM

Wow! You just notice that? Lol. Personally I'm going to tell you how I feel and what I like. I'm not forcing anyone to throw their ugly ass womens jeans away!! (Though you know you should!!) That's just they way I am. If you want a mutual admiration society.... If you want support.... I'd go buy a new bra!
God I love drama in the morning! We headed to the lounge yet?

Kathryn Martin

10-15-2010, 06:29 AM

Wow! You just notice that? Lol. Personally I'm going to tell you how I feel and what I like. I'm not forcing anyone to throw their ugly ass womens jeans away!! (Though you know you should!! That's just they way I am. If you want a mutual admiration society.... If you want support.... I'd go buy a new bra! We headed to the lounge yet?

Karen Sweetpea, what's your favorite drink?:straightface:

I just threw all my ugly ass guy jeans away, does that count?

Can I join the MAS yet, please......:notworthy:

Let's go:drink:

suzy1

10-15-2010, 06:41 AM

Head for the bunker Charlotte! Come out in two weeks time. You should be safe by then. [You can use mine if you like]

SUZY

Cherry Lynn

10-15-2010, 07:04 AM

It is early in the morning but later when everybody starts getting online this thread will surely stir controversy. I agree with you Charlotte, everybody has different comfot levels about exposure. This should be interesting.

Karren H

10-15-2010, 07:12 AM

I just threw all my ugly ass guy jeans away, does that count?

Nope. Its all or nothing! :D

Tina B.

10-15-2010, 07:22 AM

NICE RANT! I could not agree more. Karren, they keep saying it's a support group, not sports bra. And no I'm not throwing those jeans away!
Tina B.

Karren H

10-15-2010, 07:34 AM

NICE RANT! I could not agree more. Karren, they keep saying it's a support group, not sports bra. And no I'm not throwing those jeans away!
Tina B.

I keep getting group, bra and hose confused!! Lucky for me I don't need no support but the entertainment value is is worth the price of admission! :).

Speaking of Holier.. You don't see Nuns (or Victoria Secret models) wearing Jeans (at work)!! Lol.

linda allen

10-15-2010, 07:45 AM

Reading your post I come to agree with you. When you read the snippets of personal stories here, it is clear that each one of us has a unique set of circumstances. And so each one of us will have to navigate our own waters without the admonition from others who want to brush the world with one brush.

I am glad you said it

Kathryn

Well, so am I. We all have different levels of involvement with CDing. Some here wake up each morning and dress as a female. Some even sleep as one. Others, for various reasons, do not. Some can shop for clothes in person or on-line, others cannot.

The risk here, is that the forum will take on a personality where there is a majority and anyone with a view different from that majority is afraid to post because of the reaction of the majority. At that point, the forum is useless and there is no reason to bother with it.

Marissa

10-15-2010, 08:19 AM

Charlotte, you bring up some good points and even though some replies may be tainted with humor (not mine, of course :D), you will get some good responses and maybe open some eyes.. by the way, its okay to RANT.. need that at times.. :)

I am noticing a real attitude on this forum at the moment saying "don't do this, don't do that" and "oh just admit it to people"

Maybe some people can't admit it - everybody has reasons. Maybe they would get kicked out of their home, maybe they could lose their job. Something they do as a hobby isn't worth ruining their life.

I have to admit that it hits a side of me when some respond as you said above..but remember (even if not stated), its all just advice.. even though I'm sure some are really meaning what they say only because their life allows them to be so free.. You control your life so take it for what its worth and don't let all the words get to you.. accept it just ADVICE and leave the rest to what you want.. Its funny how I just had this conversation with my daughter..about how I try to keep this side away from hmmm for a better word "normal" life (no offense) as I'm not ready for that.. but I made one mistake to allow someone that close and now I'm dealing with a person who wants to be apart of what I see as my normal life..lol.. no not anyone on here.. anyway, I do agree that just because we dress at times or go out, doesn't mean we are ready to walk to the shoppette in heels and a dress..

Maybe some people need to borrow clothes in order to satisfy their need to cd because they don't have the confidence to go and buy their own, or they fear ordering clothes in case the parcel goes to a family member.

With the exception of the sanitary thing (wearing someone's panties for hours and then returning them in the dresser.. :eek::thumbsdn:) or a bra..etc.. that is what most of the issues is about.. and yes, there are many who began their venture that way..by borrrowing..so hopefully that is not forgotten.. And again, take it all as ADVICE and you will be okay..even if the words are as you stated. Some will not understand your situation.. and they should be thankful for that.

I just read in another thread "its not helping the image of crossdressers"

Get over yourself, the image of a cd won't change for anybody born in my generation and I am only 22. It will take years and a lot more acceptance before people are easily accepted.

Where would we be if the world's view on the image of all crossdressers was based on what I did or said???.. yes that comment is made like all others..a reaction of someone's thoughts on the incident. And it doesn't matter what 'group' you belong to, there is always going to be some incident that will seem to tarnish a group..and the next day its old news.. So be you..and the let the rest decide how the 'image' is affected.

I am sure I am not the only person who hates coming on this site and reading that I am a terrible person for borrowing clothes without permission and that I should just man up (girl up?) and tell people.

Sticks and stones.. remember? unfortunately, lately in the media, we are finding out that words do hurt.. most did not have the support they needed or wanted. This is a supportive site with a few bumps here and there..that is where you need to focus so you don't feel that you are terrible person.. only those near you..and the person in the mirror knows that. I was on another site where a 'girl' chastised anyone who dressed and was not considering crossing over to full time.. It upset me, but then I thought "how sad for someone to waste so much emotions just because I (and others) were not in the same line of thought as her"

Situation isn't right to change either of those things right now.

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

Okay, I think its safe for me to step down from my PEDESTAL now :D

Thank you for starting this thread..

Hugs,
Marissa

Tamara Croft

10-15-2010, 10:16 AM

Jenny Beth

10-15-2010, 10:45 AM

I've been here longer than just about everybody and I have seen this "holier than thou attitude" spring up numerous times. I usually keep my mouth shut but have said my piece once or twice. But here's my take:

It sometimes comes from someone who is young and or passable, has a government job or works for a company that has a no discrimination policy, has no one to answer too (wife, kids, family) and often someone who is a true TS.

The day I see someone who is self employed, has a family, is mortgaged up to his/her ears, is 6'4 and built like a linebacker come out to everyone as a CD then I'll tip my hat and say yes, anyone can do it.

Babette

10-15-2010, 11:07 AM

I think Charlotte makes some valid points. Each of us, including me, acts as we do for our own reasons. Even though I am comfortable with my behavior, it doesn't necessarily mean that I expect everyone else to follow suit. That shouldn't be interpreted as me accepting or condoning everyone's actions because in my mind, that is not always the case. More often than not, I will simply mind my own business.

Sometimes I have read posts and based on the information provided by the OP, it is easy to jump to conclusions or judge their actions. Then again, I try to remind myself that my understanding of the situation is limited by the text provided and I probably don't have all of the facts at hand.

Babette

Emily Ann Brown

10-15-2010, 11:45 AM

It won't help to thrown away your ugly ass jeans unless you thrown out you ugly asses with them.

Now ready to be a virgin sacrifice !!!

Em

JessiRed

10-15-2010, 11:49 AM

The big theme I've seen lately is that it's "unsanitary" to steal panties.

Well, if you're stealing them (ie not returning them) how is it unsanitary? Only way that's true is if you wear a pair, dirty them, don't wash them, and then return them to where they came from.

How many people actually do THAT?

If anything, I should be able to complain about how my wife borrows my panties and stains the crotch, but I don't.

CharleneCD

10-15-2010, 11:58 AM

Welcome to the world of internet forums. I belong to many different online groups and forums and on each and every one of them are those people who know best. They believe their way is the best and only way to do things. They are so closed minded there is nothing you can do to change them. You just need to remember that many of them can still say some pretty good and important stuff. and in the case of this forum they are still a TG brother or sister.

Stephenie S

10-15-2010, 12:21 PM

Yeah, Charlene is right. The idea that this forum will take on a particular point of view is kinda silly. There is an incredible number of different people here. A HUGE number. We come from all walks of life and all countries. And we hold a HUGE number of different opinions.

S

Lynn Marie

10-15-2010, 12:29 PM

There's this thing that so many guys do that I call one-up-man-ship. I'll tell a story and the next guy feels that he has to top my story, and so on and so on, ad nauseum. The only cause I can think of is a lack of testosterone. Gee whiz, can't you just enjoy a good story and be done with it. I love stories and story tellers. I've learned in my old age to encourage others in their gifts and to leave me out of it totally. I've got plenty of testosterone, I've no need to brag about me.

The other thing I've seen here is that some of us don't know when to quit. How many times do you need to tell someone they should shave their legs? Once is nice, twice is okay, the rest is just plain rude and "holier-than-thou" just like Charlotte said.

I love good advice. I love loving encouragement. I hate being told what to do. I hate guys just talking to hear themselves talk or bragging to make up for their low self esteem!

Stephanie Miller

10-15-2010, 12:33 PM

In the immortal words of Rodney King.. "Can't we all just get along?"

I, for one, enjoy the banter that goes on here. I don't really care if it's all to my liking or not. Do you realize how boring the forum would be without differences?
I like pink. Me too. end of post.
Boring.
With so many people ranting or giving advice, I feel somewhere there might be the information I need to make my own decision. Just because someone states something doesn't mean it's the gospel. It's their opinion - that's all. I find if I take it in stride the world is an easier place to navigate.

Please note: The following is MY OPINION ONLY! Do not read if you can't handle it!
"Get over yourself, the image of a cd won't change for anybody born in my generation and I am only 22. It will take years and a lot more acceptance before people are easily accepted."
Charlotte... your wrong. I have been doing outreaches to schools, colleges and workplaces for over 15 years. And I can tell you the difference in the level of acceptance that is has been going on has been growing. Albiet slower than we want - but growing. If, for instance, if it hasn't then we would not be seeing the changes in company or political policies we are seeing. I know what the level of acceptance was when I walked through a mall in 1990. And I know what it is today. How would you know what it was in 1990? You were just starting to poop diapers! Now you're right on one point. It will take years before we are EASILY accepted. I have found very little comes easy. It takes work. But nice rant from you. I'll accept it. Thank you or loaning your pedestal, I will give it back to you now.
:sb:

Gerrijerry

10-15-2010, 12:34 PM

That is it with this kind of post. I have had it. DON"T YOU people understand I am the only one who is always correct. GEE how many times must I tell you that. As for the jeans problem what size are they all I have is female ones now and maybe I can sneek in a male pair if my wife does not find out.

Tracy X Cruz

10-15-2010, 12:49 PM

I like what you are saying, and I agree with almost all of it except this point:

Maybe some people need to borrow clothes in order to satisfy their need to cd because they don't have the confidence to go and buy their own, or they fear ordering clothes in case the parcel goes to a family member.

Maybe I am alone here on a pedestal... it is cold and scary up here... but borrowing without asking is usually considered stealing... and stealing can very easily be perceived as wrong by the majority of people. Perhaps I will receive a lot of flak for saying so but there it is... I would rather be caught buying women's clothing then stealing them... because then I only have to explain dressing in women's clothing and not why I am stealing women's clothing to dress in it.

Am I saying you have to listen to me? NO! do what you need to do... but my advice is to keep in mind that stealing is usually perceived as wrong... and you are going to get more flak if you are caught.

BTW I don't own any jeans and never will ~_^

GaleWarning

10-15-2010, 01:12 PM

You don't see Nuns wearing Jeans (at work)!! Lol.

It's a nasty habit!
:)

They say a bit of humour always manages to diffuse a nasty situation.
:daydreaming:

Time to head over to the pub. See ya all there!
:drink:

Shananigans

10-15-2010, 01:20 PM

But borrowing without asking is usually considered stealing... and stealing can very easily be perceived as wrong by the majority of people.

I didn't think the OP was saying go out and steal the clothes. You could borrow and return...which, I agree isn't really that great because A) I wouldn't like someone borrowing my clothes without permission and B) I might be looking for something that you were still borrowing and C) I may wonder why my clothes are stretched or fit differently.

Also, I have let my SO borrow quite a few of my clothes...which, turned out to be me giving him the clothes because he can't afford to spend a lot of money right now and just giving the clothes to him was a lot easier when we no longer were able to live together (school reasons).

But, I mean, when he first started out...what else could he do? He was broke. He didn't have any other female friends or relative to borrow from...so, I mean where is the harm in that case?

Engendered

10-15-2010, 02:06 PM

Borrowing clothes when the person doesn't know you're doing it, is a very dodgy area. It's either that or nothing for quite a few CDs, but it's hardly ideal. I'm glad I don't have to worry about that sort of thing, as I've now amassed enough clothes to feed a small CDing army. >_<

CharleneCD

10-15-2010, 02:15 PM

Heres a question, is there anyone here who's first article of womens clothing they tried on not borrowed?

GaleWarning

10-15-2010, 02:33 PM

Linguistally, one has to be careful ... some claim that their sister/aunt/SO asked to dress them up ... are the clothes, then, borrowed?

But I do understand the point you are trying to make, Charleen.

JulieC

10-15-2010, 03:00 PM

Maybe some people need to borrow clothes in order to satisfy their need to cd because they don't have the confidence to go and buy their own,

But do have the confidence to steal someone else's clothing?

Let's reality check this:
1) Steal the clothes of a person you don't know. You risk; chance of discovery by that person, arrest by officers of the law, and discovery by people whom you do know by way of discovering your stash.

2) Steal the clothes of a person you do know. You risk; discovery by the person you stole from. If you're borrowing, you risk damaging their clothes possibly irreparably.

3) Buy your own clothes. You risk; the negative opinions of people you don't know and shouldn't care two peanuts about. Chance of discovery of someone you know finding your stash.

Yes, it can be a bit daunting going to buy your own things, especially the first couple of times. But as soooooo many people have said here, nobody cares what you're buying, and if they do care so what? Are you so unsure of yourself that you're willing to vest your sense of worth in the opinions of people whom you do not know? And in refusing to buy your own things you're willing to risk a far greater chance of discovery by people whom you DO know?

That just doesn't make sense.

I am sure I am not the only person who hates coming on this site and reading that I am a terrible person for borrowing clothes without permission

You're not a terrible person, but yes you should go and buy your own things.

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

Not at all. There's lots of us up here. :) You can join us!

ShellyMadison78

10-15-2010, 03:06 PM

Growing up, everything I wore I borrowed. How many times have you seen pre adolescent and up to high school aged boys running around a department store looking for that sweater dress/leggings/flats or hip huggers/halter top/flip flops combo and pretty bras and knickers?
I borrowed up until I left the house for the military, when I came back and got settled down with my own job I bought my own stuff.....and then purge......and then bought.....etc.
Since my last purge I haven't been able to buy much so I borrow clothes that my wife no longer fits into and has long since forgotten......hey she "borrows" my clothes all the time!

tanyalynn51

10-15-2010, 03:35 PM

Ooh... I can see it now, Tamara the meany has posted... and what she going to say you're all wondering :heehee:

Just wanted to say Charlotte, I totally agree, good rant :D

Ooh and I forgot.. Karren, totally agree about jeans!! horrible things lol!!!

Tamara, I think your reputation for being mean is greatly exaggerated (although hey, as I know from work, the reputation does have its uses). Charlotte, Ill be the first person to admit, when I saw the title, I figured someone else was starting another thread of problems. Turns out I was right, but I love it. Every once in a while, we need to get kicked in our complacency, as a friend of mine used to say. You go girl!!!

ReineD

10-15-2010, 03:49 PM

I am noticing a real attitude on this forum at the moment saying "don't do this, don't do that" and "oh just admit it to people"

It's human nature for people to speak from personal experience. If they've been closeted in the past and it caused them distress, you can't blame them for wanting to share their experiences with others. It is up to you as to whether or not you are ready to follow their advice.

I admit some people (not all) do sound as if they are condemming others. This could just be the way a post sounds and not what is really meant. It's hard to convey actual meaning online in a post, without hearing someone's tone of voice or seeing their body language. In other words, you could be reading condemnation without it actually being there.

But, it would be nice for members who have crossed thresholds to remember they were not always where they're at now, and be mindful when wording their posts of others who aren't quite as far into the self-exploration process. If you do run into someone with a wholier-than-thou attitude, you can just ignore them and know in your heart that you are doing the best you can with the tools that you have.

Don't take it so personally! :)

I am only 22. It will take years and a lot more acceptance before people are easily accepted.

I am sure I am not the only person who hates coming on this site and reading that I am a terrible person for borrowing clothes without permission and that I should just man up (girl up?) and tell people.

At 22, or even 62, it is your business if you do not wish to out yourself to the world. But, you are old enough to get your own clothes. Borrowing stuff without others knowing is understandable for kids who don't have an adult's resources. But at your age, you should understand something about personal boundaries.

There are ways to get your own stuff without outing yourself and without it being all that expensive. There've been lots of threads about this.

sterling12

10-15-2010, 04:04 PM

As usual Reine expresses it well. We can't make you do, or not do anything! No matter what we write. If you feel "guilty" or bothered by something that someone wrote, then you need to examine yourself, not The Writer. What you may perceive as a "Holier Than Thou Attitude" is a personal philosophy that's subject to change. People express opinions and sometimes change them. People listen to Opinions and sometimes change their own thoughts.

So, would you have us not write about anything but superficial "Rose Colored Glasses" kinds of Replies: "Oh, it will all get better! We got your Back Girlfriend!" Puhleeze....it wouldn't be long before everyone on here collectively decided to seek enlightenment somewhere else, and no more Crossdresser's Forum. We allow Diversity around here, and it's for good reason. It's makes things enjoyable, enlightening, and INTERESTING. Many times someone has written something, that I don't agree with....so what! I'm sure there's plenty of gibberish, foolish, unthoughtful, things that I've written that others don't care for.

That's what makes The World go Round!

Peace and Love, Joanie

Nigella

10-15-2010, 04:16 PM

One thing this forum does not do is permit one member to ridicule another for their choices. One thing this forum does do, is permit each and every member to have a contribution to the forum, within the rules that is :p

How each member chooses to interpret each post/thread can only be determined by that member. Sometimes our own personal circumstances can dictate if a thread is either obnoxious to us or acceptable.

CharlotteCD

10-15-2010, 05:18 PM

Just in case anybody mis-understood anything in my earlier post:

I do NOT condone stealing in any way.

I like hearing other peoples views.

RE: But, you are old enough to get your own clothes. Borrowing stuff without others knowing is understandable for kids who don't have an adult's resources. But at your age, you should understand something about personal boundaries.

There are ways to get your own stuff without outing yourself and without it being all that expensive. There've been lots of threads about this.

^^ That is the kind of response I am talking about ^^

1) Yes, I am 22. I also live with my parents and 2 siblings, and when post that comes to the house addressed with my first initial, it could be for 1 of 3 people.
2) I don't have the confidence to go to a shop and go shopping myself.
3) Apparently there are lots of threads discussing how to get clothes. Well here is the latest one http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?141380-how-to-start-buying-my-own-clothes and what does it say? Thrift shops, internet, general shops. Hmm, all of those options are out!!
4) I have ongoing illness which causes me to be suddenly rushed to hospital without warning, a member of my family will organise me some belongings for my hospital stay. What if my post arrives and they brought it to the hospital - I cannot open it there. What if they are looking for something in my room and found the clothing stash people suggest I should have?
5) "At your age you should understand" Well, if ever there was a Teacher to the Student attitude! I do understand, as explained above, I have no way around borrowing.

Checkmate.

I like this forum, I find the debate and differing opinions very interesting, that is why I keep coming back. Simple fact is, some posters don't take into account the situation others might be in.

It is nice to see others agree with me. Even if you don't agree, I think this thread will be useful for others in my situation.

eluuzion

10-15-2010, 05:29 PM

**Click click click…”Attention Shoppers!” click click… “Attention Shoppers!”**

We are holding a special event here today at “Dressers Crossing Mall”!!

What: “Queen for a Day” tournament

Where: the “Lounge” at “Dressers Crossing Mall”.

When: 8pm MST

Who: All current crossdressers are eligible

Format: Standard one-on-one, top of table arm- wrestling. Single round elimination, winner advances to next bracket, until one contestant is left undefeated and declared the champion.

Purpose: Establish an organized procedure for determining who is “right” or “wrong” for all posts and debatable issues raised each day on the forum.

1st Prize: The “champion” will be crowned “Queen for a Day” and be designated so with the presentation of a gold tiara and solid gold sequined baton, which will be on display in a glass case at the entrance of the lounge. The champion will be assigned one specific day where they have the ultimate power of deciding who or what is “right” or “wrong” in all unresolved issues, catfights and sandbox scuffles that occur on the forum on their assigned date.

2nd Prize: There is no second prize. All contestants losing their match will be eliminated from the competition and be considered “losers”.

Donations: This will be a charity event with all donations distributed to the residents of “The CD Shelter for Dress-less Gurls”. All contestants are encouraged to donate their “gently used” articles of female clothing, jewelry, shoes, soap boxes and pedestals. (Please note we are unable to accept any heels under 4” tall.)

:eek:“BREAKING NEWS”…:eek:

The chairwoman and sponsor of this event has suffered a sudden and devastating personal crisis this morning. Her SO discovered her rummaging through her closet looking for items to “borrow”, which infuriated her unsuspecting SO, who immediately sent our sponsor to her room for the duration of the weekend.

Due to this unfortunate development…It is with great regret that we are forced to announce…

“This event has been cancelled!” we repeat…
“This event has been cancelled”.:sad:

As it turns out, I did not have the authority or permission to organize the tournament in the first place. I am just a member, not an officer with power to make any decisions about this forum, or decide who is “right” or “wrong” about anything anybody chooses to do or not do in their personal lives.

I guess everybody still has the freedom to express their own views on any topic, with the understanding that doing so on an internet forum invites replies from other members… who are also free to express differences of opinion. (The “key” word being “opinion”…which is just that although it may sometimes be presented as “fact”).

Anyway, we are still accepting donations…and it is FRIDAY…and the Lounge is OPEN. It is still a great day after all!!

So, put on a dress and get out there and make us proud!

Carry on citizens…:D

Cait

10-15-2010, 05:29 PM

I agree with the OP. I think its good that there is a network of support in place on this forum and its positive that those who require support can log on and find many a sympathetic ear to whom they expound upon their problems, this is brilliant and is probably why this place is as popular within the crossdressing community as it is.

However, there does seem to be a suprising number of people on this forum that fail to realise that not everybody is in the same situation as themselves and that others may have constraints placed upon them that prohibit them from acting as freely as they would wish.

Given that the crossdressing community is apparently one that strives for acceptance, support and equality I'm genuinely suprised by the level of ignorance some members demonstrate when they seem to feel the need to ram their own value system down the necks of others and admonish them for supposed infringements (be they; style of dress, still being in the closet, etc.) upon some mythical crossdressing 'code' that everyone is supposed to be familiar with.

All the above having been said, I think that this community is on the whole supporting, but I maintain that a bit of introspection and awareness of the differences of others would not go amiss for some users.

Edit: I apologise of this post annoys anyone, that is not my intention, I'm merely offering my opinion on the subject. I should add that I don't condone stealing either.

Danni Bear

10-15-2010, 05:46 PM

Heres a question, is there anyone here who's first article of womens clothing they tried on not borrowed?

Charlene,

I may be the only one on here at present. My Grandmother bought me all my Girlie clothes starting at age 5. This was before I ever tried on any girls clothes but I did play with them all the time. It happened because of a holloween costume costume from way back in the 50's.

Danni

KarenS

10-15-2010, 06:16 PM

I'm with you CharlotteCD. There are many that simply can't do some of the things recommended. Unless a person is in the situation, they simply don't know what the circumstances or the pressures are.

Fab Karen

10-15-2010, 07:33 PM

Choosing to stay stuck is your choice. If you mention to whoever's clothes you borrowed that you did so without permission, you might learn something. Some of us got tired of being sick & tired of being "stuck", and moved forward.

VeronicaMoonlit

10-15-2010, 07:35 PM

Maybe some people can't admit it - everybody has reasons. Maybe they would get kicked out of their home,

There's no such thing as can't. There is such a thing as unreasonable fear. Let me tell you, when I was young I thought that "Bad Things Would Happen If My Family Found Out". I was afraid of what my own family would do. But I was wrong, because I doubted my family's love for me. and it made them sad that I had judged them in that way.

maybe they could lose their job. Something they do as a hobby isn't worth ruining their life.

Ham radio is a hobby, model trains are a hobby, playing video games is a hobby, but "This Thing of Ours of Varying Kinds" isn't a hobby because it's very much tied into our identity that true hobbies are not.

Maybe some people need to borrow clothes in order to satisfy their need to cd because they don't have the confidence to go and buy their own, or they fear ordering clothes in case the parcel goes to a family member.

I'm willing to give young folks a break on this, I remember how it was when I was young. And I admit to having shoplifted a couple of times as a young adult, but it was wrong. I had let fear rule me. I should have, to use the vernacular, put on my big girl panties. Kids have few options, but adults have many options. such as renting a mailbox to receive deliveries.

I just read in another thread "its not helping the image of crossdressers"

It isn't.

Get over yourself, the image of a cd won't change for anybody born in my generation and I am only 22. It will take years and a lot more acceptance before people are easily accepted.

So pessimistic and negative at 22. I'm old enough to have seen changes myself. And in fact, I've seen 50 year old crossdressers with that said pretty much what you did, and they're wrong.

I am sure I am not the only person who hates coming on this site and reading that I am a terrible person for borrowing clothes without permission

You're not a terrible person, but you shouldn't do it, you're an adult, you have options.

and that I should just man up (girl up?) and tell people.

I consider it a good idea to tell ones loved ones, and sooner is better than later.

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

Yes it is, but I've been around the block, as it were. Been involved in various online trans-communities since 1999, so frankly, I've seen it all before. There isn't much here that I didn't see on USENET a decade ago.

Veronica

Lucy_Bella

10-15-2010, 07:40 PM

I am sure I am not the only person who hates coming on this site and reading that I am a terrible person for borrowing clothes without permission and that I should just man up (girl up?) and tell people.

Not sure if this applies to the same Thread in question , but the OP did ask if it was wrong..Want us to lie? It is wrong borrowing things without asking .. Maybe some folks add a little too much in saying why it's wrong ,if it isn't wrong I'll have your car back sometime next week ..k

Claire Cook

10-15-2010, 08:04 PM

I am sure I am not the only person who hates coming on this site and reading that I am a terrible person for borrowing clothes without permission and that I should just man up (girl up?) and tell people.

Situation isn't right to change either of those things right now.

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

I sure hope that this isn't a "holier than thou" situation. We're here to vent, to voice our fears and problems, ask for help and offer advice if we can. The latter not from a pedestal, but maybe from experience. What works for one may not work for another. From my own experience, the worst part has been the guilt and shame, and the way I found to deal with it is to say "OK, I crossdress". And yes, at least for me, "girling up" and telling people has removed a lot of the guilt and shame and made CD'ing easier. But as I said, that may not work for others.

Christy_M

10-16-2010, 12:58 AM

I will abstain from comment except that I want a tiara and I think it is cruel to offer one and then cancel the event...my preference is silver, though, not gold. Oh, Oh, Oh, and with pretty jewels in it...

Chickhe

10-16-2010, 01:41 AM

Part of growning up is recognizing your past mistakes and passing on the wisdom. It is wrong to borrow others clothing without their permission. If you do it, you will feel guilty and secondly, if caught you will be treated as such. However, go get your won clothing and you can feel proud that you had the courage to do it and that you did nothing wrong by wearing them.

Shelly67

10-16-2010, 02:48 AM

Yawn.

Satrana

10-16-2010, 03:02 AM

Diversity is the spice of life. If you don't agree with someone's opinion then state your own.

The only real "danger" here is when a certain point of view becomes dominant and the members who believe in it then jump all over those with another POV. Then you can get a form of bullying which is not helpful to the health of the forum. The solution to bullying is not to back down with your tail between your legs but to fight back and not be intimidated. After all only you know the personal circumstances of your life and only you can decide what is the best course of action. So state your case and no doubt your thoughts will resonate with others and they will be encouraged to state their POV.

Angela Rose

10-16-2010, 03:46 AM

Since I have been reading a lot of the posts on this forum, I have come to the conclusion that a lot of CD's are,in MY humble opinion, very disturbed people. I could elaborate but so many CD's are in denial that they would just think that any comments made wouldn't apply to them.

Tracy X Cruz

10-16-2010, 08:25 AM

Heres a question, is there anyone here who's first article of womens clothing they tried on not borrowed?

For me, I first expressed interest in shoes, which I could not borrow even if I wanted to ^^; size 15 womens... so me and my girlfriend went shopping and I found a pair. My first actual piece of clothing was again with my GF out at goodwill and was a skirt ^^ Wasn't til after I had my own skirt that my GF "gave" me some old blouses that she didn't want that fit me.

Nick2Nikki

10-16-2010, 08:37 AM

My first women's clothes were borrowed, but with permission. I was at a friend's cabin, along with said friend (who crossdresses), his girlfriend, another guy, and his girlfriend (a MtF transsexual). Needless to say they were more than happy letting me borrow clothes.

Still, I think that my favorite posts in threads like these are the ones that declare that "you shouldn't borrow other people's clothes, because you WILL be wracked with guilt." Seriously? You can tell exactly how someone (who you otherwise know almost nothing about) will feel in a certain situation? As if. I can understand other arguments against borrowing other people's clothes without their permission, but this one just makes me laugh.

LeannL

10-16-2010, 09:50 AM

I would like to suggest that some of what comes over as holier than thought comments stem from the fact that issues get brought up again and again (as one would expect in a forum.) Many people respond without thinking about how to say things because they "have been there and done that" so many times. For example, with the borrowed clothes issue, it is probably the responses that we have read from GGs who realize that their SO borrowed their clothes without permission. Generally, the response has been worse than bad and we don't want the person who just started a thread to suffer the same backlash. What is missing is the context. There is a difference between simply posting: "Bad, Awful, Horrible, etc." and "This is really not a good idea because history tells us that most SOs (mothers, sisters, whatever) who find out that you borrowed their clothes REALLY get mad". Same message and probably different reaction even with the same intention of the responder.

BTW, I did borrow my first clothing at age 12. I borrowed my mothers since I have no sisters.

Leann

msginaadoll

10-16-2010, 10:02 AM

I think this was a needed post. It brought up some interesting discussion. However we are all human, which means we all have opinions(or are opinionated) and beliefs, and that comes out in our posts. I do think it is interesting to see the personality of each poster that can come out. I think as my mom said if we can agree to disagree, attempt to treat others with respect things will go fairly well. That is even if we think they are idiot, jerks, and ignoramusses- all of which I have been. I try not to stand to high on a pedestal so that when i fall I wont break a leg. It is a lot harder to put on jeans when your leg is broken and I might be stuck only wearing dresses and skirts then---- Yuck!!!!!!!!

JiveTurkeyOnRye

10-16-2010, 10:14 AM

I do NOT condone stealing in any way.

Cut to you trying to condone stealing:

1) Yes, I am 22. I also live with my parents and 2 siblings, and when post that comes to the house addressed with my first initial, it could be for 1 of 3 people.
2) I don't have the confidence to go to a shop and go shopping myself.
3) Apparently there are lots of threads discussing how to get clothes. Well here is the latest one http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?141380-how-to-start-buying-my-own-clothes and what does it say? Thrift shops, internet, general shops. Hmm, all of those options are out!!
4) I have ongoing illness which causes me to be suddenly rushed to hospital without warning, a member of my family will organise me some belongings for my hospital stay. What if my post arrives and they brought it to the hospital - I cannot open it there. What if they are looking for something in my room and found the clothing stash people suggest I should have?
5) "At your age you should understand" Well, if ever there was a Teacher to the Student attitude! I do understand, as explained above, I have no way around borrowing.

Checkmate.

It's not a checkmate, it's a stalemate, because frankly there's no where else to proceed. People are going to continue to disagree with you because they feel you are wrong, and you're going to continue to just write off whatever else they say to you as being an example of your initial point.

Your initial post/rant had some veracity and merit to it, and had you just left it at that, I think you could have kept yourself on your own pedestal and high horse. However, now it's starting to feel like this whole thread only exists so you can justify stealing clothes.

Just because you don't allow yourself other options, doesn't mean that the choice you make to steal people's things isn't wrong. You can word it nicely as "borrow without permission" but it's still stealing. It's still an invasion of personal property and personal space of someone who is not you. You can continue to do it all you want but it isn't being preachy for someone to tell you that they don't think it's a good idea.

EDIT: Wanted to add this suggestion in at the end without starting a new post. For #4 a really simple solution would be to have a pre-packed bag of stuff ready to go in case of the emergency so people don't have to go searching for things for your stay. Considering that this seems to be a regular occurrence, it seems like this would be convenient even without the added wrinkle of avoiding revelations towards your crossdressing.

Elizabeth Ann

10-16-2010, 10:14 AM

Lee Andrews

10-16-2010, 10:14 AM

I am noticing a real attitude on this forum at the moment saying "don't do this, don't do that" and "oh just admit it to people"

Maybe some people can't admit it - everybody has reasons. Maybe they would get kicked out of their home, maybe they could lose their job. Something they do as a hobby isn't worth ruining their life.

I can't agree more with this. A while back I was chastised for not sticking my neck out for a fellow crossdresser. I stuck it out a bit but not enough for some around here. I value my wife, friendships and work. Don't preach to me about the "Cause of Awareness" because you where willing to throw your life to the wind and seeing where it falls.
My wife has a few rules for this crossdressing thing I do and I respect that. Some of my lifelong friends would not understand, some will and it would change things forever. I'm not willing to find out which way they will go. It is not worth it to me. Berating me for my outlook is useless. What's good for you is not necessarily good for me and just makes for bad feelings all around.

Jeanna

10-16-2010, 10:28 AM

I can't agree more with this. A while back I was chastised for not sticking my neck out for a fellow crossdresser. I stuck it out a bit but not enough for some around here. I value my wife, friendships and work. Don't preach to me about the "Cause of Awareness" because you where willing to throw your life to the wind and seeing where it falls.
My wife has a few rules for this crossdressing thing I do and I respect that. Some of my lifelong friends would not understand, some will and it would change things forever. I'm not willing to find out which way they will go. It is not worth it to me. Berating me for my outlook is useless. What's good for you is not necessarily good for me and just makes for bad feelings all around.

Agreed!

I want to add to that. I won't lose my career , my children will understand that they will now have 2 mommies. my wife will be perfectly accepting just because some dopes said it is right to do so. The problem is, one can never measure up to some of the perfect people in here and never will.

I will be humble and just accept that I'm not perfect.

aggi123

10-16-2010, 10:29 AM

This is a much needed rant and I agree with most of what charlotte had to say. There are/were a few members here that used to realllllllly get under my skin with their holier than thou attitudes. I'll never forget a thread made where one of us was trying to build a "unique" look that is something we will never ever truly experience. One of the comments made was, "IS NOTHING SACRED??" After an entire days worth of berating, the thread was ultimately closed and she never really got the answer to her question. If I were that original poster, I'm sure I would have been upset and being that this "appears" to be a support site, I found it completely tasteless some of the replies.

I've never seen her post again since then.

One thing I think some people forget is that there is most definitely a person behind that user name and we all have feelings. Chastising someone (especially new to the forums) is never an appropriate answer and it takes a lot of courage for someone in the closet to even sign up on this site. I know it took me a long time of reading to eventually sign up. Chasing them away and making them feel like their not even welcomed by like minded people is downright stupid to me.

Karren H

10-16-2010, 10:46 AM

Now that you mention it!!

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n175/karrenhutton/Avatars/81.jpg

Sally24

10-16-2010, 10:47 AM

I am noticing a real attitude on this forum at the moment saying "don't do this, don't do that" and "oh just admit it to people"
I am sure I am not the only person who hates coming on this site and reading that I am a terrible person for borrowing clothes without permission and that I should just man up and tell people.

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

Funny thing.....when you come to a forum, you get different opinions! If you just want to come and vent, why would you read other people's opinions? This is a place to ask for help, see what other people are dealing with, and get exposed to other people's points of view.

I just have to say that borrowing on a regular basis, is wrong, even if it is the only the option. I just think that in MOST situations it's not the only option, just the most convienient one.

VeronicaMoonlit

10-16-2010, 10:50 AM

I won't lose my career , my children will understand that they will now have 2 mommies. my wife will be perfectly accepting just because some dopes said it is right to do so. The problem is, one can never measure up to some of the perfect people in here and never will.

Advocating honesty about "This Thing of Ours of Varying Kinds" with ones immediate family does not imply that we're saying "tell everyone all at once." Neither does telling mean that you're on the slippery slope to transitioning. It also doesn't mean that ones partner won't have issues or want there to be limits on where and when.

It's also why some of us say to tell BEFORE one gets married and has a high powered career, wife and family.

Veronica

Alice Torn

10-16-2010, 11:01 AM

Sister Karren, Forgive us for we have sinned.

Jeanna

10-16-2010, 11:35 AM

Advocating honesty about "This Thing of Ours of Varying Kinds" with ones immediate family does not imply that we're saying "tell everyone all at once." Neither does telling mean that you're on the slippery slope to transitioning. It also doesn't mean that ones partner won't have issues or want there to be limits on where and when.

It's also why some of us say to tell BEFORE one gets married and has a high powered career, wife and family.

Veronica

You see I'm not even as perfect as you!

Steph.TS

10-16-2010, 12:49 PM

I'm in the middle of this argument, I don't want to ruin my life, the only person I've told that I'm TS is my mom, I don't dress up at work, I however buy my own clothes both online and in person (DRAB) it's terrifying when your in a women's store and you are obviously a man, but it's liberating walking out after making your purchase, every time I do this I feel freer and freer, like I'm learning society doesn't necessarily limit what I can and cannot do, society's power comes in 2 forms 1. having you believe in your limits ie. because your a man you can't wear a dress or skirt. and 2. using peoples insecurities about themselves to enforce societal rules around what ever part of their life they themselves are insecure about.

how many times do we see people speaking against homosexuality and then a scandal appears where that person called gay sex chatlines or doing 'lewd' acts? I look up to people on here who can dress in public (DRAG) and pass, those who are known to their friends and family and coworkers just who they are. I think we should be pushed a bit to move out of our comfort zone, but everyone should know that some people may have limits as the OP said people could lose their job over it, or be kicked out of their home, family members might reject them ect... while some people on here have told their family and it turned out great other families aren't so accepting.

so push but realize there are limits how far some people can go and be respectful of that.

janet p

10-16-2010, 01:11 PM

I hate to disagree with Charlotte but now a days I see more and more CDs around town and one of them that stop in at 7-11 around the corner from me has to be about 6'5" bare foot and with heels you can imagen how tall she is. Karen I don't about you but when I'm up to my knees in snow I want those UGLY ASS JEANS!

eluuzion

10-16-2010, 02:10 PM

Now that is just so mountain-centric. You know, not everyone can afford to be in the mountain time zone, and some of us actually choose not to be. What's more, those of us on the East Coast don't really understand why you don't see that we are much more advanced. We are hours ahead of you. I know that some of you MST types will claim that you were born with this delusion, but personally I attribute it to the thin air up there. :D
Liz

Oops, I was not thinking when I set the time zone. I get so confused when I try and use that “mean” time, or whatever ya’ call it. I mean, I know what a G2 is because I use to routinely fly on a company owned Gulfstream back in the days when I was responsible. But that G-6 or G + 7 world time adjustment stuff is just too tough, like trying to program a VCR used to be…(I have one head, it has two or four, etc) …way over my head…So I just automatically write MST without thinking, lol. Sawee’ bout’ dat’.:o

Yeah, we probably are a little behind the “East Coast” on the sophistication curve, still riding horses and our water canteens, but it does have some advantages over living in those big cities with all those “scraper-sky” buildings n’ stuff. :doh:

Why just the other day while hiking in the mountains, I found a skull! The first thing I did was call the local sheriff. But then I got curious about it. I picked it up, and started wondering who that person was… and why he had elk horns…

Yer’ probababbibally’ right about it being the altitude. It really is tough to think straight when you are high all the time…but somehow I seem to manage…

Hey, go outside and look to the West…Can you see me? I’m standing out on my deck facing East and waving at you…see me?…little black dress and 5” pumps?…I’m waving my arms…see me?:wave:

Oh well, must be one of those time things again…

docrobbysherry

10-16-2010, 02:12 PM

Not in your PERCEPTION of the Forum, but in your EXPERIENCE with it!:brolleyes:Let me explain:

I thot EXACTLY like u until recently! Then, I realized who was POSTING HERE! Think about the enormous number of members that visit this site. Then, compare THAT with the small number who write post after post here. And, MANY of them r TG/TS!

There r 1000's of closet dressers that visit here, lurk, ask a question occasionally, or say nothing! They have neither the confidence or experience to contribute! But, THEY'RE HERE!

And, why is it then, that the TG/TSs have so much to say? And, some strong opinions as well? Consider this, Grasshopper; MANY of them have BEEN WHERE U AND I R NOW! But, they've moved ON! They've battled their own demons, SOs, in laws, friends, co-workers, etc, and have SURVIVED!

I've been here for three years. Yet, I'm just beginning to understand the value and importance of what these CD "pioneers" have to say! I've only recently begun to go out, and I have a peculiar CD handicap that inhibits me!

But, like u, Charlotte, I am but a Grasshopper! Hoping to LEARN from the MASTERS HERE! Just remember, there r MANY MASTERS! And, just as many ways to move forward on your individual CD path!:thumbsup:
If u LISTEN, u may NOT AGREE, but u WILL LEARN!:)

Heres a question, is there anyone here who's first article of womens clothing they tried on not borrowed?

If had to "borrow" an article of a girlfriend's or wife's clothing, I NEVER would have started dressing!:Angry3:

Mary Morgan

10-16-2010, 02:46 PM

Can I have an Amen?

Jonianne

10-16-2010, 03:18 PM

Charlotte, obvioulsy you are a very sensitive person. I know, I was and still am to a major degree, so I can relate to feeling like there is no way out of a situation.

......But, you are old enough to get your own clothes. Borrowing stuff without others knowing is understandable for kids who don't have an adult's resources. But at your age, you should understand something about personal boundaries.

There are ways to get your own stuff without outing yourself and without it being all that expensive. There've been lots of threads about this.

^^ That is the kind of response I am talking about ^^

The person you quoted as being one of those with a "holier than thou" attitude, shows the extreme degree of your sensitivity (which doesn't make you bad in any way). You picked the one part of her post that you felt bothered you and ignored all the rest. Reine, a genetic female, is one of the most caring, and kind and understanding of the plight of cd'ers and is a SO of a cd'er on this forum, herself.

1) Yes, I am 22. I also live with my parents and 2 siblings, and when post that comes to the house addressed with my first initial, it could be for 1 of 3 people.
2) I don't have the confidence to go to a shop and go shopping myself.
3) Apparently there are lots of threads discussing how to get clothes. Well here is the latest one http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?141380-how-to-start-buying-my-own-clothes and what does it say? Thrift shops, internet, general shops. Hmm, all of those options are out!!

Don't just throw out all these options out of hand. There are ways to get what you want anonomously if you want. Get your own post office box or some stores you can mail order things and they deliver to the store and you can pick it up there. You are just picking up a package, the store people don't care. You could go to some store further away where you won't be recognized.

4) I have ongoing illness which causes me to be suddenly rushed to hospital without warning, a member of my family will organise me some belongings for my hospital stay. What if my post arrives and they brought it to the hospital - I cannot open it there. What if they are looking for something in my room and found the clothing stash people suggest I should have?

With that attitude, why would you even crossdress at all? You could get caught wearing something you borrorowed when you got sick, or the family members could find the articles you borrowed from them in your room and they would then know. If you are worried about being caught, it's a risk either way.

5) "At your age you should understand" Well, if ever there was a Teacher to the Student attitude! I do understand, as explained above, I have no way around borrowing.

Checkmate.

It's not a Checkmate, and it's only a Stalemate, temporaly, untill you choose to make even a small move. Don't let yourself be crippled by your sensitivity and fear. You don't have to tell anyone else, unless you choose to, but borrowing is a risk and probably more of a risk than buying your own cloths or picking up a package somewhere anonomously.

One thing I wish I could do, at my age, is to go back when I was younger and find that courage that I thought I didn't have and not let my own sensitivity and fear keep me from being the person I really wanted to be. You have the opportunity of communicating with thousands of like minded crossdressers and plenty of wonderful GG's like Reine who are here to accept you and help you grow in your own person, the way you want to grow. :hugs: Joni

Kaitlyn Michele

10-16-2010, 05:10 PM

Charlotte you raise a good point...advice can seem like "holier than thou"...but your post is no less "holier than thou" than anyone elses.

you need to grow up and realize that wanting something really bad is not an excuse for bad behaviour....you seem to have it tougher than most..do you know that many trans folk trade keys to lockers so that if they fall ill or god forbid pass away a friend can go get their stuff?? my parents found my stash when i was late teens..i told them it was a girl's that i had over and she was gonna stay the night (bad! !! LOL) and they said "whew"...double LOL..

i stole clothes...i stole them from drying machines in the basement of my college and one time from a store called merry go round (i panicked with a skirt in my hands and just bolted when i was a teenager!! it was size 4 so it fit over one thigh!!)...i felt so bad about that i bought like $100 of guy clothes that i barely ever wore from them!..but if you tell me i was wrong, i can't attack you just for saying it for crying out loud.

supporting people includes telling them difficult things that they need to hear...for example have you considered how many roadblocks you are putting up to stop yourself? do you realize how many of us have done this before figuring out how to express ourselves?

i'm not holier than thou for bringing that up..but you should take the good advice you get here to heart. if you don't the consequences will be yours to bear.

you have lots of time..you have lots of people here that would love to help you.

Rianna Humble

10-16-2010, 05:43 PM

I just read in another thread "its not helping the image of crossdressers"

Get over yourself, the image of a cd won't change for anybody born in my generation and I am only 22. It will take years and a lot more acceptance before people are easily accepted.

SO what you are saying is that the dozens of families around me who now know something about TG folk because of my story and who still have a positive opinion of me won't react any better to the next TG they meet? Or are you saying that their image of TG folk hasn't changed now that they know and accept someone who is TG? :eek:

Would you suggest I tell them that they are wrong to think that they have a different impression of us folk?

t-girlxsophie

10-16-2010, 06:40 PM

SO what you are saying is that the dozens of families around me who now know something about TG folk because of my story and who still have a positive opinion of me won't react any better to the next TG they meet? Or are you saying that their image of TG folk hasn't changed now that they know and accept someone who is TG? :eek:e

I Agree Rianna if my Crossdressing helps change just one persons opinion of our Community (happily I have done so)then alls well and good,who better to alter peoples perceptions of us all than those of us that have gone through it all,if we can do so safely without alerting those we dont wish to know

:hugs:Sophie

Elizabeth Ann

10-16-2010, 07:15 PM

Hey, go outside and look to the West…Can you see me? I’m standing out on my deck facing East and waving at you…see me?…little black dress and 5” pumps?…I’m waving my arms…see me?:wave:

Oh well, must be one of those time things again…

Oh, Eluuzion, I am sorry. Your timestamp says you sent this at 3:10 pm, but for some reason I can't figure out, I didn't get it here in Maryland until after 5 p.m.:doh:

I'm not sure I would have seen you anyway. LBD's tend to blend in too well. Maybe if the pumps were orange.

Liz

JulieK1980

10-16-2010, 09:01 PM

I tend to be one of those very opinionated people that could often be described as "holier than thou" (its a false assumption. ;) ) But realistically isn't the point of a forum to see a whole group of many different opinions, so that we can all look at them constructively, and see the many different sides to an argument? As someone earlier pointed out, if we all agreed, it would sort of be a dull place to hang out.

Ultimately I completely understand how you could see many posts as insensitive as this is the internet after all, and many people feel much more free to post stuff they would never say to a person in real life. I think personally its best to ignore what you perceive as a negative, and focus more on the positive. Look at each one of those posts your offended by critically, and ask yourself, "does this person have a legitimate point worth exploring?" Sometimes when you do this, you might learn something new about yourself. Worst case scenario, you look at their post and think, "nope, doesn't really apply to me." and be done with it.

Just my two cents.

Cassandra Lynn

10-16-2010, 10:14 PM

I found the antidote for the thousands of "you must come out at all cost" posts seen here.
Simple really, i went and found a more casual, laid-back and we're all one happy family forum.
That said, i do stop by here from time to time to read some of the more intelligent and thought provoking
posts, it just takes a little time to weed through the usual stuff.

So yeah, i agree with you.
mj (Cassie)

jessica renee

10-16-2010, 11:24 PM

I'm not sure how to respond to this, but somehow feel the need to offer my two cents worth of thought on this anyway. Some aspects of the OP I can agree with, but some of it I do not. I for one do purchase my own clothes, mostly in drab but sometimes dressed as well. This includes lingerie, shoes, and regular outerwear. I have explored how to safely recieve internet packages as my family and friends do not know about my dressing. And by family, I am not referring to a SO or children, I am single and do not have kids. I too am not willing to risk the fallout from outing myself to them at this time. While some would be accepting, I know for a fact that others would not.

As far as the issue of borrowing, I will not set here and tell anyone that it is right or wrong, each person has to examine their own values and decide whether they should borrow or not. My personal view for myself is if I am truly borrowing an item, then I have asked for and recieved permission to have and use said item, be it clothes, a movie, or any other material posession. If I am using an item without permission of it's owner, be it clothes or other items, I am not "borrowing" but rather "stealing" in my eyes.

Once again, the above is just my opinion. That is one of the wonderful things about this forum, is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I do not post this or anything else I might post in any thread to criticize or berate anyone, just to express my views. Your opinions and views may be different from mine, and I respect that even if I may not agree with them.

Rianna Humble

10-17-2010, 03:50 AM

1st Prize: The “champion” will be crowned “Queen for a Day” and be designated so with the presentation of a gold tiara and solid gold sequined baton

Can I have the tiara in Sterling silver and gold sequined abayah if I win, please? I have difficulty wearing batons! :heeheee:

I want a tiara and I think it is cruel to offer one and then cancel the event...my preference is silver, though, not gold. Oh, Oh, Oh, and with pretty jewels in it...

:yt: :iagree:

Kate Simmons

10-17-2010, 05:18 AM

I don't know that it's as much "holier than thou" as it is wishful thinking. Remember the old saying" If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." Those who have confidence in themselves have no need to be concerned with what anyone else is doing.:)

PretzelGirl

10-17-2010, 10:56 AM

EDIT: Wanted to add this suggestion in at the end without starting a new post. For #4 a really simple solution would be to have a pre-packed bag of stuff ready to go in case of the emergency so people don't have to go searching for things for your stay. Considering that this seems to be a regular occurrence, it seems like this would be convenient even without the added wrinkle of avoiding revelations towards your crossdressing.

Excellent suggestion. It does bring about a question to the OP on how you plan on not being dressed when a sudden need to be rushed to the hospital comes on? Do you get a little bit of lead time to change?

One of the main things of this forum is that this is a pulling together of thousands of people and we are all different. So there will be times where each one of us is in the minority of opinion. When I find myself in this position, I try and state myself in the best manner as possible and move on. What does this accomplish? Someone might just learn something about an outlying opinion or "state of being" if you will. I am not going to get upset because I can only find one or two people who agree with me. It is still my thought or experience.

An additional thing that you see here is that this is the written word. Almost daily, I see a post that gets misconstrued because the reader misinterpreted the intentions of the writer. Very few of us are probably professional writers. So we need to take care in reading too much into the posts. I used to be on a pre-Internet international set of forums called FidoNet (yes I am dating myself). There were two unofficial rules that I have applied through all my internet years.

1. Don't be annoying.
2. Don't be easily annoyed.

Is it really worth it to get upset about another's opinion? And I know, I am probably the only one that feels this way. :D

Christy_M

10-17-2010, 09:56 PM

:o
I used to be on a pre-Internet international set of forums called FidoNet (yes I am dating myself). There were two unofficial rules that I have applied through all my internet years.

1. Don't be annoying.
2. Don't be easily annoyed.

Is it really worth it to get upset about another's opinion? And I know, I am probably the only one that feels this way.

I am guilty of letting myself get annoyed. I can handle hearing everyone's opinions becasue I htink there are nuggets of value in everything regardless of whether I agree or not. The trouble I get into is when someone makes an ignorant/misinformed general statement without taking others feelings or situations into consideration. Even then, I am only really perturbed when that same somone is confronted with it and then starts calling names towards theose that disagree with them.
I bought my soap box a long time ago and it has many miles on it. I am not sure when I might be able to retire the poor thing but I try not to bring it out unless I feel pretty passionately about something. Even while I am on it, I try to be mindful of other's feelings (to an extent) but it goes with anything else, we are all on this planet together. We should be able to live and let live without demeaning or disparaging each other when we disagree.

Damn, how did this thing get back under me? I wasn't planning on bringing this out today. :D

ReineD

10-17-2010, 11:18 PM

2) I don't have the confidence to go to a shop and go shopping myself.

You also mentioned an illness, which wasn't mentioned in your first post, and I am sorry that you have to deal with this too.

But, the above quote seems to sum up your quandary. Do you accept your lack of confidence as if you will not be able to do anything about it? Many of us are presented with less than ideal life circumstances and sometimes life can throw us nasty curve balls. But, but part of maturing (at any age, even mine, lol), is to try to look at it in terms of what CAN be done, instead of the opposite. For example, in my own life, at one of my lowest points, I had to stop thinking of myself as a victim and I had to learn to take control. It's not easy, but it really is the only path to freedom.

I'm sorry you took my earlier statements as my having a holier-than-though attitude, and also that my words made you angry or hurt your feelings. Just for the record, I don't think I'm better than you. I have been where you are (not with the CDing, but with other issues), and I wanted to offer you a different way to look at your situation.

You are of course completely free to do as you wish. But I do think the reason you're so sensitive about other people's words is that deep inside you also don't like where you're at with all of this. So, instead of taking it out of those of us who say things that you don't like, why don't you instead use the energy to see if you can stretch a bit, in an effort to become a little more independent with your CDing needs?

If it's hard for you to go into a thrift store by yourself, a solution might be to try to get to know other CDs who will go with you. You could see if a member in this forum lives in your area, or you could try to find a TG support group. If you're in school, many schools have GLBT support programs. My SO belongs to a TG support group, two hours away from where we live. She attended meetings regularly for years before she got enough confidence to do everything on her own. We now go out everywhere dressed, and she knows quite a few people who do not know her in guy mode. Back to the TG support group: there are sometimes new members who show up not dressed, or minimally dressed, since they are just starting out and they don't know how to go about it. The group even has a room available for members who need to change on the premises, since their families don't know about the CDing and they are not comfortable driving in the car dressed yet.

I wish you all the best, and I hope that you will find a way to reconcile your inner turmoil.

:hugs:

TommyII

10-18-2010, 12:10 AM

Wow reading thru this one made me eat a whole chocolate bar. It does calm the homones.

Lucy_Bella

10-18-2010, 12:18 AM

Renie,
I was impressed you spelled it right on your first post why the change?

holier-than-though

ReineD

10-18-2010, 12:29 AM

OH. Duh. The late hour I guess. Time for :gn: :)

Lucy_Bella

10-18-2010, 12:38 AM

Who am I to talk at least you can spell...,...heck you spell better in your sleep than I do awake... Sorry OP no more hi jackin ..

Laura_Stephens

10-18-2010, 11:44 AM

I don't post or read often enough to see any sort of attitude. I do know that I will be in the closet forever since I am extremely well known in the industry I work. If news got out regarding that I am more comfortable dressed as a female, it would hurt a large number of people -- not just my family. Coming out in general is great if the person divulging secrets is the only one hurt. When the truth holds the potential to hurt a while bunch of innocent people, staying in the closet is the right thing to do -- IMHO.

EllieOPKS

10-18-2010, 02:03 PM

Rianna Humble

10-18-2010, 03:01 PM

I'm not sure what positive purpose people feel that posting insults will serve. If I recall correctly, this is supposed to be a support forum, not a place for intolerance and insults. Posts in that vein will reinforce the negative image of the behaviour that the OP believes she has seen.

I am not proposing that we reduce everything to the state of a mutual admiration society, but in over half a century of existence I have yet to find a circumstance where name calling gave the most positive outcome. I have been grateful when people have corrected my misunderstanding in discussions on these forums but none of them has felt the need to resort to telling me that I am dumb.

I have even been told off regarding discussions here and learnt by it, should those people have called me weak? Would that have been a better way to teach me the error of my ways? Or would it just have put my back up? I'll leave it to others to decide what they think.

Elizabeth Ann

10-18-2010, 03:37 PM

I agree completely with Rianna. "dumb rants," "weak," "you need to grow a pair." This is not, "I disagree with your opinion . . . " or "I don't see that on this forum . . ."

Ironically, this validates Charlotte's original post, though I am sure it will pass right over the complainer's head.

Actually, this is one of the oldest methods of dealing with reason. If you don't like the message, shot the messenger.

Liz

t-girlxsophie

10-18-2010, 03:55 PM

Dude, you need to grow a pair. Jeeeez

There you go charlotte its all about having the balls,dont worry about losing your friends,family etc thats just tough just deal with it.with respect Ellie is that really helpful to Charlotte or anyone who struggles with being able to dress safely without causing disruption to their relationships,work etc

Lorileah

10-18-2010, 03:56 PM

The forum is here to allow discussions and share. When one asks a question here they will get opinions. Most these opinions are based on experience and will be stated as "You should" or "It would be better if..." If you see that as being holier than thou then it must have hit a chord that made you think.

Cassandra Lynn

10-18-2010, 05:27 PM

JulieK1980

10-18-2010, 06:04 PM

You know, this is one of those dumbest rants I think I have ever seen. Just in case you are really this weak, Charlotte, you must send me all your money and personal positions, right now!

I mean get real, does anyone think a rule or law is being dictated here? People state their thoughts and opinions. It doesn't mean you won't get your daily ration of bread and water if you don't do as you are told. Dude, you need to grow a pair. Jeeeez

Gee. That's conducive.

Seriously, why insult? I see this type of thing all over the internet, and it's kind of sad. Especially in a forum that's designed to be a support network. We all have different sensitivities. Just because YOU think they are irrational, doesn't give YOU the right to insult them. Maybe the OP does have a level of sensitivity that I think is irrational, doesn't mean they are wrong, it just means it's a different perspective than my own.

If a person with a broken bone complains that it hurts, a person that has never had one will think, "Wow, that must hurt!" But a person that just went through Chemotherapy from cancer may see it as, "That's nothing compared to what I've gone through!" Neither perspective is wrong, it's just different, and every persons perspective can only be based on their own experience.

I don't know if my analogy is making sense to you all, but that's my opinion on it.

JiveTurkeyOnRye

10-18-2010, 06:12 PM

Guys,

Let's be fair here. The OP wasn't exactly polite either. The very name of the thread contains "holier than thou," sure maybe people shouldn't resort to name calling but the way the argument was presented does tend to put one on the defensive.

NicoleScott

10-18-2010, 07:01 PM

I've read all the posts, and re-read the OP several times. Here's my take: Charlotte is frustrated and got a little sensitive over comments about borrowing clothes. Charlotte listed several obstacles to shopping and dressing (privacy, confidence, and medical condition). Every suggestion offered was shot down as not do-able.
Charlotte, we all have faced obstacles: shopping/acquiring a wardrobe, private time and place, etc., but we dealt with it and solved it, within our own unique circumstances. As a group, CD's are smarter than the average bear. We've figured out how to things, even weird solutions (bird-seed boobs?). When I was a young kid, I had a strong desire to put on lipstick, but I didn't have any, couldn't get any, and couldn't borrow/steal from mom/sister, and if I could, couldn't risk not being able to remove the stain completely. This is weird, and a bit embarrassing, but I solved my problem, temporarily, until I could get my own real lipstick. I mixed red water-color paint with white toothpaste and made a wonderfully thick pink lipstick and painted it on my lips. It satisfied me, and washed right off. I'm not suggesting you do anything like this, but encourage you to get a positive attitude, and use your brain to get what you need. Just figure it out. And lighten up - people are trying to help.

docrobbysherry

10-18-2010, 07:12 PM

Then, I'm Cinderella!:devil:

Aprilrain

10-18-2010, 10:48 PM

What 22 year old can't buy her own clothes? A minor living with parents I can understand but an adult even one living with parents shouldn't be "borrowing" with out permission anymore. Go to a Walmart or similar store no one gives a sh!t what you buy at those places.

Jamie001

10-18-2010, 11:17 PM

We need to always keep in mind that we create most of the demons in our own mind. In most cases if we come-out or are outed, the world will not end. It is important to remember that what we are doing is not illegal or immoral. We conjure-up demons that don't really exist because we have been conditioned since we were several years old that displaying feminine behavior is unacceptable.

ReineD

10-19-2010, 12:04 AM

We need to always keep in mind that we create most of the demons in our own mind.

There's a term for this: Internalized Transphobia (http://www.queensu.ca/humanrights/tap/3discrimination.htm). It carries with it feelings of shame and self-hatred. Scroll down to the bottom, under "Impact of Discrimination".

Presh GG

10-19-2010, 01:04 AM

Just wait till the op gets caught stealing undies from family, friends or the neighbors clothesline.
That will be the worst wake up call ever.
It must be really scary not knowing when or how, but you know you will someday be caught.

Pedestal no, truth yes
Presh GG

Raquel June

10-19-2010, 01:48 AM

Didn't read the whole thread, but I just had to respond to the opening rant.

... Something they do as a hobby isn't worth ruining their life.

Sure, but to play devil's advocate, a lot more people have wasted their lives by living a lie than have ruined their lives by coming out of the closet. I dare say that the vast majority of CDs on this site have long since surpassed the "hobby" stage and would do well to admit it to themselves. Actually, most of them already have and are probably in a healthier place than you are.

If you're terrified to confide in people, then maybe they're not really your friends or maybe you're afraid your family doesn't really love you. Get your tippie-toes back in reality a little bit instead of perpetuating a bizarre out-of-touch fantasy that alienates loved ones and avoids your real issues. If CDing is this unacceptable thing that you're ashamed of and can't quit and are afraid of having your life ruined by, then maybe you should stop pretending those stolen panties you're hiding are the same as a stamp collection.

Maybe some people need to borrow clothes in order to satisfy their need to cd because they don't have the confidence to go and buy their own, or they fear ordering clothes in case the parcel goes to a family member.

And how many things have you "borrowed" and then not given back? Most people aren't going to "borrow" something without asking then wash and dry it and return it. They're going to keep it as long as they want then realize that it be more suspicious to take it back and they would be more likely to get caught, so they'd rather throw it away than return it. That makes it stealing.

And even if you actually did return them, taking people's clothes and wearing them is a gross violation of privacy on the same level as a peeping tom.

I just read in another thread "its not helping the image of crossdressers"

Get over yourself, the image of a cd won't change for anybody born in my generation and I am only 22. It will take years and a lot more acceptance before people are easily accepted.

If you're not interested in helping the image of CDs, then that acceptance will never come. I'm 35 and I pass pretty well, and when I do get read I'm still accepted by most people. I don't need a self-loathing CD telling me that there's no point in having any self-respect because people are going to look down on me anyway. I'm disgusted by CDs who don't care about the community's image -- the kind of people who only CD when they're out of town, or when they know they won't be recognized, or post disgusting personal ads all over the net and make us all look like jokes and perverts.

I am sure I am not the only person who hates coming on this site and reading that I am a terrible person for borrowing clothes without permission and that I should just man up (girl up?) and tell people.

Yes, stealing personal items from people who put their trust in you makes you a terrible person.

JiveTurkeyOnRye

10-19-2010, 03:30 AM

Ok, so I feel like I'm responding to this thread a lot but thats because it seems to have stuck with me a bit. I've already addressed the stealing clothes issue, so lets go to the other one, the coming out issue.

When I worked for a popular computer company's retail chain, one of the things they preached in employee conflict resolution was to "Always assume positive intent." In other words, try not to go into a feedback session in attack mode, try to think of a way that someone may have actually had good intentions. Because to be honest, I think most of the time people do have good intentions when it comes to day to day stuff.

SO on the coming out issue, I honestly do believe that the more CDers and TG folk who come out the better it will be for all of us, but I would personally never use that as a reason to insist others come out. Coming out is a personal decision that one makes for themselves for their own reasons, and that's how it should be. I'm 28 right now and I came out at 27, so I can remember being a 22 year old and saying, no, I'll never come out, it's just not worth it. So I can't fault others for feeling the same way.

However, having come out now, I feel bad for how negatively I reacted towards all the people who encouraged me to come out when I was younger. I really do think a lot about my view of the world has improved since coming out and people have frequently told me how much happier I seem since then, and just the other night a friend told me how mutual friends have said I was more enjoyable to be around after coming out because I seemed so much more at ease with myself.

There are certainly elements of people on here who do push as part of a strength in numbers game, and as part of a cause, but I think it's safe to assume that most folks have positive intent. That most people who encourage someone to come out are doing it because they know how happy it has made them and they want to spread the light.

charlotte_sp

10-19-2010, 04:53 AM

There's a term for this: Internalized Transphobia (http://www.queensu.ca/humanrights/tap/3discrimination.htm). It carries with it feelings of shame and self-hatred. Scroll down to the bottom, under "Impact of Discrimination".

Worth quoting imo. I think it's important to emphasize that even if you don't feel targeted by discrimination, this process of internalization can be completely unconscious and lead to stress. Social support is the best way to fight it, and that is the motivation behind encouraging people to come out to at least one close friend.

@JiveTurkeyOnRye: :thumbsup: on the last post...that is a rare and impressive attitude D:

eluuzion

10-19-2010, 09:00 AM

“Hey, aren’t you kids suppose to be in school?” :heehee:
http://www.dramabutton.com/

I know it’s a bit late to be weighing in with comments when the party is almost over…But…since most battles are won by attrition, I figured I might have a shot at being the "last one standing"…cause everybody seems to be getting wobbly…lol

Alrighty then…why speak when you can just steal quotes, eh?…

“Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent”
-Eleanor Roosevelt

“It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.”

“It is better to hold out a hand than to point a finger.”

“Those who truly want something will always find a way.
Those who do not will always find an excuse.”

As I always state to my daughter when she comes looking for “answers“ or asks me “what she should do”.
(My routine reply)…
” Sorry, that’s not my job. My job is to help you generate options. Your job is to decide which option seems like it will provide the best outcome.”

Here’s one option…
I think that “timing is everything” and it certainly applies to the timing of your initial post on this “topic”. Regarding the potential “social suicide” aspects of trying to purchase CD attire…everybody gets a “free pass” this time of year…it is Halloween!!! Everybody knows the real reason Halloween was invented as a holiday (aside from confusing children about “strangers”), was to give CD people an opportunity to buy clothes, wigs, make-up, and accessories without arousing any suspicion!!

You can buy tons of outfits for $20 or less! Almost every type of store stocks up. They sell nails, wigs, outfits, hose, make-up, you name it! Everybody has the same excuse…It’s Halloween! Hell, you can even ask women to borrow their clothes and they agree to it!!! Doesn’t get any better than this!!! It’s like being invisible! Kewl!!! When you pack up all the Halloween stuff the next day, you just hide the clothes for “year round’ fun!

Another Option…
If you feel abused by some members on the forum, you could always go out and smash their pumpkin Halloween night! Nobody will recognize you!

************************
Oops, exsqueeze me for a minute, I see some friends on the plane….”HI Jack!”:wave:

A quick reply to the inquiries about the cancelled tournament and tiaras…
We are sorry about the cancellation and I inquired about the tiaras…
I am pleased to announce we did find some door prizes that should work out just fine for all of you…silver, shiny and everything…here is the info…

Quick Instructions for building an AFDB (Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie)
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/build.html

That’s all folks…
“and so it shall be written, and so it shall be dumb”.:hugs:

jenni_xx

10-19-2010, 09:27 AM

Get over yourself, the image of a cd won't change for anybody born in my generation and I am only 22. It will take years and a lot more acceptance before people are easily accepted.

Question is, are you prepared to play a part in helping change people's attitudes in this regard?

I'm not 22, but I was once, and I felt all the worries, fears, frustrations that you have now. I would wager that every single person here has also. So in many respects, we're all in the same boat and can speak from a position of complete understanding. We all find ways to hide, conceal, and yes, downright lie, when it comes to our crossdressing. I borrowed my sister's and mother's clothes without asking when I lived at home. I didn't feel confident enough to go out and buy my own for many years. I don't have a medical condition to overcome, unlike yourself, but that's just it - it's just another obstacle for you to overcome. I will say that I go out and buy all my clothes, and have done for years now - I had to overcome my confidence issues in this regard, and that's exactly what I did. I still sometimes get nervous to this very day, but in many ways, that just adds to the excitement.

I don't think it's a "holier-than-thou" attitude that being's expressed. I rather think it's just others saying, in their own way, that often the biggest fear anyone has lies with themselves. People are contributing and basing their contributions on their own experiences, and that's really all we can do. It's up to you whether you chose to accept others opinions or reject them. But either way, we should never devalue them for really they carry just as much weight as our own. I think no one would demand anything from you, or from anyone for that matter, but then saying that if more of us were to live our lives openly and without fear of prejudice, then maybe that's the only way that acceptance more generally will be attained. People snigger when they see me, and it's not nice, but I will say that any negativity that I've experienced (which in all honestly really isn't that much anyway) pails into complete insignificance when I'm subjected to any positive reaction. So that's what I choose to cling on to.

Raquel June

10-19-2010, 10:21 AM

I just love this quote:

Maybe some people need to borrow clothes in order to satisfy their need to cd because they don't have the confidence to go and buy their own

But if crossdressing is a hobby like you say, why are you calling it a need now? And how does that make it OK to take people's stuff without asking?

Maybe some people need to borrow valuables in order to satisfy their need to shoot heroin because they don't have the money to buy their own.

Maybe some people need to borrow from their parents in order to satisfy their need to smoke weed in the basement because they don't have the motivation to get a job.

You're 22. You're a big girl now. Stop stealing your mom's/sister's/aunt's/friend's panties like you were a curious 6-year-old boy.

Tima

10-19-2010, 10:24 AM

Get over yourself, the image of a cd won't change for anybody born in my generation and I am only 22. It will take years and a lot more acceptance before people are easily accepted.
I am sure I am not the only person who hates coming on this site and reading that I am a terrible person for borrowing clothes without permission and that I should just man up (girl up?) and tell people.
Situation isn't right to change either of those things right now.
Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

If I borrow something, the person I’m borrowing from knows I’m borrowing it, OK? Anything other than that is thievery. I understand not having any money to buy things, or being overly shy about going into a store and buying something femme, but I also understand working with what you have, and not exacerbating an already un-explainable compulsion. If your situation “isn’t right to change,” then you should work to effect some change. I don’t have many resources, either, but you need to be responsible for your actions. Can you see me? Look down. Can you see me now?
:heehee:

VeronicaMoonlit

10-19-2010, 04:23 PM

Here’s one option…
I think that “timing is everything” and it certainly applies to the timing of your initial post on this “topic”. Regarding the potential “social suicide” aspects of trying to purchase CD attire…everybody gets a “free pass” this time of year…it is Halloween!!! Everybody knows the real reason Halloween was invented as a holiday (aside from confusing children about “strangers”), was to give CD people an opportunity to buy clothes, wigs, make-up, and accessories without arousing any suspicion!!

Thanks for bringing that up...don't forget Christmas shopping either. However wearing "regular" women's clothing for Halloween instead of a women's costume can make some people a little suspicious.

Veronica