Approaching a possible Transman

[CharleneCD]

I came upon a situation last night and ended up doing nothing just because I was unsure of what was proper.

I was at a party with a pay bar, and one of the people working the bar was a young female with a very strong masculine experience. I was in male mode but thought about saying something, but I was unsure of what she was. From my perception there is definitely a blurring of who is butch, genderqueer, or outright transman. If the person was trans I wanted to let them know that they were not the only one there and good on them for openly expressing themselves. But I didnt know. I thought about simply asking if they were an L or a T in LGBT and going from there, but didnt feel comfortable enough to ask. Why risk offending if I dont have to.

So I am asking all of you what you think I should have done.

[Areyan]

i think it was probably not a bad thing to do nothing in your case... i just put myself in the young persons' shoes that you are speaking of and if a man in obvious man clothing clocked me as a t-guy i'd want to RUN! i'm a midget, not very strong and i'd be wary of any man's motives in asking me if i was either L or T.... i'm not romantically interested in cis men and my first instinct would not be a good one. other t-guys might have less wussy reactions. just my humble opinion.

[7sisters]

I'm just extra polite. I met a young person at the supermarket yesterday who is probably LGBT (similar appearance to what you described). I just smiled and was extra courteous. I got a suspicious look in return. LOL

[AnonyMouse]

How about "Do you go by 'he' or 'she?'" This takes the focus off of your curiosity about xir gender identity - which is none of your business anyway - and puts it on treating that person respectfully however xe identifies. If xe is trans, xe'll probably appreciate you asking.

[CharleneCD]

Areyan, seeing your possible reaction, I am going to agree that I chose correctly by doing nothing more than being friendly. If you would freak out in a normal situation, You would have completely lost it at this party as it was highly sexual in nature. Not a good thing when all I wanted to do was offer comradeship and support.

Anonymouse, This takes the focus off of your curiosity about xir gender identity - which is none of your business anyway

I have only been back on this forum for a little over a week now and have already picked up on the undercurrent of the Transmen feeling marginalized by the FtM's. I just wanted to take a step forward and offer up a bit of support to a possible transman. I wasnt sure about something and came here to ask. Now I wonder why I even gave a crap. I hope your attitude is the exception rather than the rule.

[mistunderstood]

In all do respect CharleneCD while you have been gone there has been a lot of problems here in the Transmen section involving M2F's. We are a little punchy and gun shy about things.
If you were the server at a party and you were dressed as a woman and a guy asked you are you a male or female would you respond to the question? Would you feel safe and welcome?
It is nice you want to support the person but not all people welcome it. Before I realized who I was I would have been pissed at you for questioning me even thou you meant kindness.
So please take the response you get here in stride and not get upset.

[Andy66]

Charlene, I think the best thing you can do is be friendly and try to feel out what's best on a case by case basis, which seems to be exactly what you did.

A few months ago I asked the ladies for advice on how to help make a new T-girl coworker feel comfortable. My intentions were the same as yours here. The responses I got were everywhere from "it's nice that you're trying to help" to "how dare you treat her differently from any other woman?" I guess you can't please everyone. *shrug*

[AnonyMouse]

I have only been back on this forum for a little over a week now and have already picked up on the undercurrent of the Transmen feeling marginalized by the FtM's. I just wanted to take a step forward and offer up a bit of support to a possible transman. I wasnt sure about something and came here to ask. Now I wonder why I even gave a crap. I hope your attitude is the exception rather than the rule.

Oh, I'm sorry! I can understand how that might have sounded harsh. What I was trying to say is that curiosity about someone's gender identity just for the sake of knowing (or gossip) is not worth much, and while you may not be asking for that reason, that's how the bartender is going to see it when a cis guy (as xe sees you) starts asking about xir gender. And it may be a meaningless, traumatic, or extremely complex question, depending on xir personal history and gender identity (suppose, for instance, xe is genderqueer). In any case, asking the question will require xem to give a potentially long-winded or stressful answer, with little apparent benefit to xem. However, if you're going to be dealing with xem in a context where you need to know - if you're going to be in a conversation, or working together, or just coming to the place a lot - then the best, most respectful thing to do is ask what pronouns xe prefers. Framing the question this way communicates to xem that you are interested specifically for their betterment, which is both relieving and likely to get a straight/honest answer. (If you're not going to be spending time around xem, you won't have opportunity to use that knowledge, and we're back to the "idle curiosity" thing.)

It's sort of like Schrodinger's Rapist. You may know that you're a trans woman looking to express solidarity, but our bartender doesn't - for all xe knows, if xe gives you the wrong answer there could be dire consequences down the road.

[CharleneCD]

In all do respect CharleneCD while you have been gone there has been a lot of problems here in the Transmen section involving M2F's.

Aaron, About all I can say is that that is downright pathetic. We are all TG and should be supporting each other as such. I do understand where you guys are coming from.
As for being upset, it is more to make a point. I am not going to judge a whole group on one persons words or actions, but many will give up trying to understand rather than put up with BS.


Charlene, I think the best thing you can do is be friendly and try to feel out what's best on a case by case basis, which seems to be exactly what you did.

A few months ago I asked the ladies for advice on how to help make a new T-girl coworker feel comfortable. My intentions were the same as yours here. The responses I got were everywhere from "it's nice that you're trying to help" to "how dare you treat her differently from any other woman?" I guess you can't please everyone. *shrug*

Andy, sometimes I think we are our own worst enemies. I know if I were transitioning and starting a new job It would be a blessing to know there was someone else there who fully understood what I was going through. So my response to your question would be to let her know you are there, then treat as you would any other gal. "how dare you" What did they think you were going to do, treat her like a lepper? The general consensus within the MtF community is that if you see a sister let her know she is not alone if it can be done in a manner that wont freak her out, or out her to everybody around. So yes it is a case by case basis.

Aaron asked me how I would respond if asked if I were girl or guy. From my perspective it is not that simple. For MtF's its a pretty simple guess as to what we are when we are out unless we are fully transitioned. For FtM's unless I see a beard or a bulge I will admit complete ignorance in telling the difference between someone who is trans or just a very butch lesbian. With the beard my course is obvious, treat him like a total dude. Without those signs what do I do beyond treating them with the respect and courtesy? So rather than doing my best to accidentally piss someone off I am asking here.

[CharleneCD]

most respectful thing to do is ask what pronouns xe prefers.

Anonymouse, now that is the kind of answer I was looking for. I just cant feel comfortable asking whether someone prefers to be called he or she, but asking in those terms is perfect. If the persons appearance is not gender related they will look at me funny and think I am weird, But a fellow trans will understand and at least know that I am either someone making an effort or trans myself.

As for Idle curiosity, I disagree when it is coming from within our own community. For me knowing another trans is around makes me feel less alone in a world I sometimes barely fit in to, and I would assume any one of us taking the time to ask also plans on identifying ourselves at the same time. It may only be two ships passing in the night, but its a few moments of being with others like ourselves.
Now when it comes to those who are cis, your qualifications are totally valid. None of their business.

[Adam]

Cheat next time ask there name if its a male name then thats your answer although im aware there is names that fit both genders most trans people pick a male or female name to suit how they feel

[CharleneCD]

No Adam thats not cheating, thats just so simple it makes me want to slap my forehead and say "DOH". Since xe is a bartender and I am likely to run into xe again, I could easily ask for a better way to address xe than just " hey barkeep".

[MiraM]

The general consensus within the MtF community is that if you see a sister let her know she is not alone if it can be done in a manner that wont freak her out, or out her to everybody around. So yes it is a case by case basis.



That's funny. The consensus I get from most of those thread is to leave the person the hell alone. If you don't know them, and they do not volunteer the information, it is none of your business if they are a CD, FtM, MtF or a french poodle. As for myself, and the vast majority of people I know, having some random person approach you saying that I know you are a guy in a dress, or I know that you were really born with a female body is close to grounds for getting yourself in a world of s***. Unless you are at a Tran event, you have no way of knowing 100% what a person's birth gender or prefered gender is and it is best to leave it alone. In most cases you will either wind up offending the person in question or just make yourself look like an a** if your assumption about them was wrong. I agree with Adam. If it is a bartender that you will see from time to time, ask their name. Asking a person if they are a boy or a girl is not the best way to go and is down right rude.

[CharleneCD]

Alicia, I think that depends on what forums or which area of a forum you are spending your time in. If you are spending your time in forums dedicated to TS who are transitioning or are fully transitioned going for GRS, yes you are very right. Once you get outside of that particular area of the TG spectrum the opinion varies. As for the rest, I appreciate the trans 101 lesson. Somehow in my 5 years as a member here I never got the message not to go up to a suspected transsexual and tell them "hey your a dude". I also missed the point about addressing the person with the proper pronoun for how they are dressed. I would be in a world of s**t without that unasked for lesson. I do have a clue about The MtF side of the TG spectrum. It is on the FtM side I am not so sure about. Now if I see a beard or a package no problem, they are male as far as I am concerned, but without that I see a big gray area that could be anything from lesbian to Genderqueer to Transman. And when I say Transmen, I know I most likely am not defining it the same way as the guys here. So rather than ASSUMING anything I am here asking their advice.

Yes Guys I am listening to your advice and do appreciate it.

[7sisters]

[I]
Now when it comes to those who are cis, your qualifications are totally valid. None of their business.

Yoohooo!!! dont forget about me... LOL
I'm a gg who has had two important trans men in my life. Id say Charlene, there again its best to play it with intuition. Some cisfolks think trans is 'weird' because of what the media tells them. They are haters and incorrigable. then there are some who dont know anything about trans issues but come from the place where they see you as another human being and they want to reach out and relate. It's best never to alienate cis people or any others as in the end, everyone can be converted into allys. Like I was.

I first learnt how to be mannerly towards a transperson from Calpurnia Addams video Bad Questions. LOL.

BTW thanks for your post on the raccoons. I've thought of nothing else since I saw your post. I dream of them talk of them think of them. Your the best Charlene!!!!!!

[maryannnite]

how about , you look great. and see if there willing to talk to you, were all just people and thats how we get to know each other .dont realy have to ask qustion out right just you look great or even a hi will get the ball rolling

[CharleneCD]

Ok guys, I dont seem to be getting the kind of response I expected. I am beginning to think I may have approached this wrong and didnt full explain my reasoning for asking this question.

First off this is more than just about the possible Transman I ran into the other night. Running into xe just pushed the need to ask questions of proper protocol and to learn more about the MtF side of being TG. My wife and I are becoming very involved in the BDSM community and there is a large LGBT presence there. Our involvement so far has been online, but that is soon to change. I have found myself in many conversations with transmen recently, but online in the BDSM realm all I have to do is look at the profile to determine how someone identifies. Once I start meeting them in person I no longer have that easy cheat. As for why I dont ask those who I have come in contact with, the groups where The TG community seem to hang out pretty much advertise as not a place to discuss trans 101 issues. So I came here as it is a more friendly support based forum rather than an activist type. Lets just face it, I feel more comfortable asking here for asking this kind of thing.

[Andy66]

Sorry, are we not really answering your question?

What I think I hear you asking is, how can you tell the difference between a transman and a lesbian based on the individual's appearance? Or if you can't, how do you ask without insulting the person?

I hate to say it, but I don't actually know, short of them having a beard or bulge as you mentioned, or listening to their friends. But I'm fairly new to this. Maybe there are subtle clues that you learn to pick up on? Maybe they appear to be wearing a binder instead of a bra?

[Babeba]

Well... I'm neither MTF or FTM, and I'm not part of any 'scene' other than here... but my two cents would be the phrase, 'how do you prefer to be addressed?'
Fellows, if you were working at an event filled with gender-issue aware people and someone asked you that, how would you react?

[mistunderstood]

If I was in that kinda party I probably not be offended by the simple question of which way do you swing. Or if someone ask out rite if I was male or female. Because I would be more comfortable and would be feeling safe to answer.

[Andy66]

Fellows, if you were working at an event filled with gender-issue aware people and someone asked you that, how would you react?
In that case, I think I would be pleased that they were trying to be considerate.

[CharleneCD]

Ok, it looks like there isnt much more of an answer to my question than to find a way to ask their preference in a way that shows respect, and you have given me some great examples. So now I can head off into the minefield at least knowing how not to be too stupid and set one off.

[CharleneCD]

To tell the truth I did learn a lot more by just reading between the lines. I can understand everyone's fears regarding strait men. Even as male to female, that is still the case. But I at least have my 6 foot 200lb frame to fall back on to protect myself if things go bad. After reading Areyan's post I put myself in the position of being 5 foot 2 and 110 lbs being approached by my 6 foot 200 lb male. A male who might be the type who likes bashing gays and such for fun. It does put a whole new perspective on how many Transmen might be seeing things. I will also take this bit of knowledge with me.

[Andy66]

But I at least have my 6 foot 200lb frame to fall back on to protect myself if things go bad. After reading Areyan's post I put myself in the position of being 5 foot 2 and 110 lbs being approached by my 6 foot 200 lb male.
Ponder this, my dear: I'm fairly big for a genetic female, and I lift weights. Even so, genetic males about my size can easily lift twice as much as I can. (I'm not taking T.) We do what we can/have to do, to protect ourselves.

So now I can head off into the minefield at least knowing how not to be too stupid and set one off.
Good luck, have fun. If you do your best and still manage to offend someone anyway, well maybe they're just too touchy.

[7sisters]

Charlene you come across as kind, genial and well-meaning. Most people will be able to sense this. As a means to survival most transmen seen to have a sixth sense about who is genuine and who is not. So you dont have to worry. You are a good soul.

[CharleneCD]

Good luck, have fun. If you do your best and still manage to offend someone anyway, well maybe they're just too touchy.


Charlene you come across as kind, genial and well-meaning. Most people will be able to sense this. As a means to survival most transmen seen to have a sixth sense about who is genuine and who is not. So you dont have to worry. You are a good soul.

Andy and 7sisters, My biggest problem is that I am admittedly socially inept. Not fitting in with general society in the first place along with repressing my feminine side for the first 37 years of my life has made me that way. I am doing my best to learn though. As for being touchy, arent we all that way sometimes? I mean you would never guess I could be that way just from this post.:D Unless things get personal I tend brush things off pretty quick though.

[7sisters]

You'll do just fine! Dont worry too much. At least you are very genuine. And that itself is such a gift to others. I know you treat others the way you want to be treated. And that's the key.