Freedom of Choice, or Freedom from Choice?

[GaleWarning]

Too many threads on this forum seem to be about MtFs who appear to want nothing less than complete freedom to dress how, when and wherever they wish, regardless of the feelings and opinions of their SOs, or the probable consequences with regards to their relationships.

They insist on their individual right of complete freedom of choice.

In contrast, we read heart-rending accounts written by the stricken SOs, as well as plenty of good advice written by them and also some more thoughtful MtF CDers, urging these rugged individualists to remember that they are in a relationship, and to rather negotiate with their SOs, boundaries within which they may dress without placing too much stress on their better halves or the relationships.

The SOs and wise ones insist that agreed boundaries provide freedom from choice.

Dobie Gray described this state as “... the freedom of my chains, lying in your loving arms again.”


Please use this thread to offer your view on this conundrum. Which is better, freedom of choice or freedom from choice?

Why?

[Tracy X Cruz]

Wow... hmmm I had to read that a few times to fully get the implications...

My SO rarely restricts my boundaries for dressing except when I step too far out of line... like too short/doesn't suit me/ etc. She is very forgiving though cause I put up with her wearing these hideously ugly crocs... >.<

Anyway on topic... I understand that we in general want the freedom to wear what we want and choose any clothes we desire... but being in a relationship DEMANDS compromise... and really most people in a relationship dress FOR their significant other as much as for them selves. Wearing something nice when going to a fancy meal, or putting on that specific dress cause he said it was cute. When out with the the SO I think their opinion matters most although I think it still should be in the confines of what I/you would normally wear.

So example, I would normally wear a skirt... but I am going out with my GF and she prefers me wearing the longer skirts so I will pick one of those and wear the shorter one when I am out later with my friends.

I don't know if that answers the question per say... but middle ground all the way, I like freedom, but I understand I can't stray too far from the set fence.

[Inna]

Freedom is an illusive condition and often when thought of an absolute, gives rise to extreme tendencies. No such truly exists, but being allowed to experience self without conditions attached is an expression of as close as one can get to freedom. When venturing to discover ones self it sometime creates uneasy circumstances which may have negative repercussions. It should be understood that with such freedom comes responsibility, and that responsibility is simply love and devotion, without which, freedom is just an empty selfishness.

[Kathi Lake]

Maybe my view is simplistic, but this is what I teach my kids;

You are free to do whatever you want to do in life - as long as that freedom does not impinge upon anyone else's freedom. Once they "get it" it really makes a difference. We are all connected, and our actions have consequences not only to us, but to those bound to us by love, genetics, or even proximity.

My dressing - even though I do it out of view of my wife - does affect her. It's hard for her not to notice the hairless body, the perfect eyebrows, the long, shaped nails, the smell of burned hair from the laser. My actions do affect her, and therefore what I do to me, I do to her, in a way.

Our arrangement is that she doesn't want to know. Still, she knows, you know? I do hope one day to convince her to share this part of me. I'm certainly not going to force her. Instead I will take it at her pace, telling her bits and pieces on the days I think she's willing to hear. It it perfect? No. We are trying, though.

Kathi

Loving the Devo reference, by the way. :)

[tricia_uktv]

Although I've crossed the boundary a few times, I think I have managed and are managing both.

While my children were growing up I did not dress.

When my children were in their late teens I only dressed away from home.

Now my children have fled the nest I am free to do as I wish - with my childrens' and my ex-partner's support.

I think its important to know who matters most and to realise that there is a time for all of us.

I love being femme and love my daughters equally.

[Roxanne_Alternate]

I can't judge much since I don't have a SO yet, and my past girlfriend accepted it without even thinking weird about it. Sure, she wanted to have a boyfriend too, as she'd like to put it... A thing I accepted, and I always told her I was going to 'change'. If she didn't feel like it, well, no biggie.

It's a give and take situation.

[kimdl93]

one size doesn't fit all. I can understand individuals who limit their dressing to satisfy a spouse/SO and equally sympathize with individuals who have risked a relationship to be true to themselves.

[KlaireLarnia]

We all have a right to choose what we feel is correct for us. The problem occurs when this impacts on another person - an SO or a child for example. Then our right to choose has to be balanced with the rights of the other person not to be placed in a situation they are not comfortable with.

Unless you are the only person in the world, you can never have total freedom of choice to do as you please. This is where a democracy comes in - even in a relationship. Balancing the needs of the many against the needs of the one and finding a common ground where all parties can exist happily. While we all push limits and rules to breaking point, we should also know where the line is drawn. I have limits set by my wife, I do not go against these at home. That said I am pushing them a little at the moment as I know soon a few things need to change and I do not want to find they totally go against me, but rather there is give and take so the new boundaries are fair to all those involved.

So in answer to your question. No one has total freedom of choice, we all must give and take and thus find a common ground in which we can live and do that we desire.

[Mary Morgan]

In my case, my wife is okay with my dressing, but doesn't want to see it. We shop together for everything from makeup to clothing to jewelry and she is fine with that. My female wardrobe is huge and she is fine with that. Her issue is not about my dressing as much as it is about what others will think of her be married to a crossdresser and that is the part that is frustrating. While I understand it and accommodate it, I find the choice to be based on societal prejudice and that is the part that I don't like. Fact is, if we were more accepted by society, she would be more comfortable. Since her issues do not hinder my dressing other than in her presence, we have reached an accommodation. I will honor it and hope for greater tolerance in the future. The irony is that society has absolutely nothing to fear from us anymore than they do from most other forms of prejudice. I suppose this is part of the human condition and I am compelled to go along to get along. She is worth it and I love her to pieces.

[sissystephanie]

When I married, my wife already knew that I was a CD. She fully accepted me in that role, and even fixed my wig and did my makeup. However, we did establish some rules. I did not go out dressed enfemme without her permission, and I never was to be dressed enfemme in front of the children. They were not told about my crossdressing until after my dear wife had passed away, and they were grown up. They both have accepted it, but do not wish to see me dressed enfemme. I can accept and live with that!

[Loni]

i am free do do what when and were i please...pending work.
but my bed is cold at night, dinner is boring, going places can be a drag (not the good kind). can not go "out" with friends as they have there wife's, me the odd duck out.
i would not want to argue, but it happens with two people living close together. just to talk about the new dress, or what i saw/heard today. or if she did see, hear, buy, etc.
someone to confide with, hide with, cry with, laugh with, live life to it's fullest with.

.

[AllieSF]

Good topic Clayfish. First, I believe that everyone makes their own bed and can truly remake it at anytime. That is a decision they need to make themselves. I also believe that if someone decides to live their life in a certain way, that is their choice and any future consequences, repercussions or whatever is theirs to deal with even if others are also affected positively or negatively. That goes back to making your own bed. We are adults and need to accept the results of our decisions.

I have to only speak for myself when I say that any restrictions in life need to be self imposed, or at least accepted as doable when imposed by others, work, society, SO, etc. I am single and started this side of my life while single only a few years ago. From my point of view and limited understandings from reading someone's SO imposed limitation thread, I feel sometimes that the CDer is agreeing to putting the chains in the SO's hands. If they can live with that, fine. However, from what I have read on here for the last 3 plus years is that eventually those chains become far too heavy and restraining and other issues start to arise in the relationship.

Not being in a current relationship, I can only say what I would like to do if I was in a relationship where my new SO wanted or insisted that I give her the chains. I would rather say that what I am doing and experiencing is an ongoing and developing process where even I do not know where it will lead me, let alone her and everyone around me. If I agreed to some limitations and compromises with her, it would have to be with the understanding that we would regularly revisit them and modify them. If we could not come to a mutual agreement, then we would both have a serious decision, or decisions, to make. I could not be in a relationship that was totally one sided where I had to do what my SO says according to her beliefs and rules. I would not want my SO to be in that situation either.

[Lucy_Bella]

I'll answer the only way I know how..
1. Consideration!! Be considerate to your S.O.'s never place them into a please don't do that to me again situation..

2. Communication! Ask the S.O.'s their feelings about something you want to do that may directly or endirectly involve them, talk to them first ,give them the option of expressing their opinion and what actions they may want to take.

3. Equal Rights! Yes you have rights to express yourself anyway you see fit, But remember so does your S.O. don't force your rights on someone else... Share them..

[t-girlxsophie]

I made a promise to myself NEVER to take my wifes Support and Understanding for granted,but recently,as I explained in an earlier thread of mine,to my shame I forgot that,We discussed things and we resolved the Issue together,Any choice I make is with my wife in mind It is only right.I am confident we will remain strong together for that very reason.

:hugs:Sophie

[Jonianne]

I love how my wife describes a healthy relationship - "you hold on with an open hand".

Sometimes, when you surrender, you win. Sometimes when you win, you lose.

[Jocelyn Quivers]

I think I am answering correctly with freedom of choice. My wife and I have set up the boundaries for me. I understand her #1 rule being no going out in public. I understand it because even though it's my freedom to do what I want, she also will have to deal with the consequences. Even though I am prepared to lose my friends and family do to this side of me. I do not want her to lose her friends and family because of my actions. I do not want her to have to fight with her parents on why she should divorce me because her parents might not approve of my lifestyle. I also do not want my extended family to have to constantly defend me. Therefore even though I have the freedom to go out in public and live the way I want to. I choose (with no regrets) to respect and honor my wifes wishes and stay in doors.

[Gerrijerry]

I know this is going to get others upset. But I have to say what I feel sorry in advance.

But how many of the crossdressers tell there wives they should not wear pants. It appears this is really about passifing the SO.
I am not saying that it does not effect the SO or family but it seems to me it is always about making them happy at the price of making the CD or TS less happy. When you really accept and love someone what they wear should not be the issue. It should be do they love and accept each other. Style changes over time, male and female roles have changed over time. It is time to stop being told or telling others that you can or can't wear what you want and then the public will finally get the message. This is not a crime not something meant to hurt others. It is simple what some are. When you choose to marry each other you should tell each other the truth and that is the only fair way to begin the relationship. For many years that was seen as impossible to do by many on both sides. Telling a SO after is the problem and changes the basic understanding of each other from that point on. Yes the SO does have the right to not accept. He or she can leave the relationship. Or can agree on a plan that may work for a while but like everything time will change that plan. Life is change.
I do think that what is happening is that as the public is getting more and more understanding of everyone else. More and more people are comming out. As that happens more and more SO's simple will not be worried about what others will think of them when there husbands or wives want to dress differently. Of course this is only one of the issues in being with another person. I sometimes wonder why so many SO's think that by saying NO it will really change the person. I am sure that I can not change how my SO thinks about somethings. I simply accept the way my SO is and love her the way She is. All I expect is the same.

[AKAMichelle]

The boundaries may work for a cd'er but not so well for a person who it TS. It is very hard to deal with being TS and I understand the SO's issues. Unfortunately there aren't any boundaries which would work to keep a TS from being who feel like inside.

[Tima]

Which is better, freedom of choice or freedom from choice?

By “freedom from choice,” you mean that an individual can kiss all choice good-bye during a relationship? You choose to be in a relationship of some kind, and then you disable choice for the good of the relationship? If that’s the case, I would much prefer freedom of choice. You know what they say: If you choose to not make a choice, you still have made a choice. How’s that for a conundrum?
:doh:

[GaleWarning]

By “freedom from choice,” you mean that an individual can kiss all choice good-bye during a relationship? You choose to be in a relationship of some kind, and then you disable choice for the good of the relationship? If that’s the case, I would much prefer freedom of choice. You know what they say: If you choose to not make a choice, you still have made a choice. How’s that for a conundrum?
:doh:

Thanks for this comment, Tima. It opens the way for me to add my take on the situation, which IS seemingly a conundrum.

I suppose you have watched The Nanny. She comes into a household where the kids have no structure laid down for them by their parents. They have claimed the freedom to do as they choose. So they fight and bicker and generally make life miserable for everyone around them, including themselves!

The Nanny comes along and slowly sets about laying down some basic rules and regulations, guidelines, boundaries for both the children and their parents. Initially, everyone struggles against the new chains which seem to inhibit their freedom. Slowly, however, they come to the realisation that, far from making them more miserable, the boundaries actually have made them happier, as the fighting and bickering stop and they learn to get along with each other. This new freedom actually is better, because it opens doors rather than closing them, leads the family down pleasant paths instead of paths strewn with weeds.

This is how I understand the term "freedom from choice". Paradoxically, the boundaries INCREASE one's level of freedom.

[ReineD]

I disagree that a CDer's needs (or as Michelle pointed out, the needs of a TS) can be compared to those of a bickering and self-centered child. When behaviors are dysfunctional, no matter who exhibits them, steps do need to be taken to help the dysfunctional person grow. Else they'll not be able to function happily in relationships.

But spoiled children aside, in any matter, CDing or otherwise, couples must find a balancing point. If they cannot do so satisfactorily, no matter where the balancing point is, they doom themselves to a life of disconnect to themselves and to each other. Who wants to live this way? If couples can't get on the same page with the larger issues, they might be happier each going their own way.

If a CD cannot live with his wife's boundaries, and if she cannot stomach the CDing, can they really ever be happy together?

I was talking to a woman yesterday who said that in her 30's, she met the love of her life. The feeling was mutual. But they had completely different ideas about the lifestyles they wanted. Fortunately, they both had the wisdom to realize that any compromise would result in long-term unhappiness. They parted. She finished her medical degree and settled into a practice, and he went on the road to pursue his musician's dreams. She does not regret her decision and neither does he.

[GaleWarning]

I disagree that a CDer's needs (or as Michelle pointed out, the needs of a TS) can be compared to those of a bickering and self-centered child. When behaviors are dysfunctional, no matter who exhibits them, steps do need to be taken to help the dysfunctional person grow. Else they'll not be able to function happily in relationships.

Am I correct in perceiving the two sentiments expressed above as contradictory? The first sentence claims my analogy is off the mark. The next two say it is spot on.

But spoiled children aside, in any matter, CDing or otherwise, couples must find a balancing point. If they cannot do so satisfactorily, no matter where the balancing point is, they doom themselves to a life of disconnect to themselves and to each other. Who wants to live this way? If couples can't get on the same page with the larger issues, they might be happier each going their own way.

If a CD cannot live with his wife's boundaries, and if she cannot stomach the CDing, can they really ever be happy together?

I was talking to a woman yesterday who said that in her 30's, she met the love of her life. The feeling was mutual. But they had completely different ideas about the lifestyles they wanted. Fortunately, they both had the wisdom to realize that any compromise would result in long-term unhappiness. They parted. She finished her medical degree and settled into a practice, and he went on the road to pursue his musician's dreams. She does not regret her decision and neither does he.

Did either of them hook up with someone else, Reine? If so, is either relationship happy? These are the crucial questions.

A question occurs to me ... of the many members of this forum whose relationships have ended, how many have managed to find a new relationship in which they have complete freedom of choice?

I, for one, have not. But I have found a greater freedom from choice with Shesa than with my ex-wife.

Thank you, Shesa

[ReineD]

It doesn't always have to be an "all or nothing" proposition. If you read the threads where married CDs have posted, you'll find there are a good many marriages where a balancing point has been reached. It is only when it can't be reached that a marriage is doomed. Not everyone here is divorced.

[kimdl93]

As a married CDer, I have to agree that it is very possible to reach a suitable accomodation with a partner. Furthermore, I think the issue in most relationships is not so much the CDing as the way people relate to each other, the way the partners deal with any issue. Some of us, myself included, have been in relationships where the process of working out disagreements was so mutually destructive that the relationship itself collapsed.

Disagreeing doesn't have to mean arguing, and arguing doesn't necessitate or justify escalating the dispute or the permanent damage done by hurtful words or reprisals.

[Karren H]

Freedom would get old pretty damn quick.... (Ok maybe not THAT quick!!). I'd settle for a loosenening of the noose around my neck just a tad.... thank you... I haven't fully dressed since March... But I'm not whinning one bit! Nope... It's the cards I drew and I'm living with them!! Maybe if "she how must be obeyed" would get a part time job I could retire and play house? Yeah... Like that's going to happen.. Ohh well...