Crossdresser or Transgender or ?

[Inna]

I know that this topic may get us into heated debate but heated debate is good in good intentions. I often read a post about a crossdresser who solely identifies with just crossdressing and that is that, to later read same person finally embracing idea of something more happening in their life. The desire to venture outside of norm and present as an opposite sex in it self is predecessor to transgender condition. To express femininity by male is to directly come into embrace with the opposite set of ingredients and therefore to state the societal dislike and rebel against masculine character. Its just the clothes you say, no, it is always more than that, the image of femininity and assimilation with feminine form. I personally feel that all gender flux specific tendencies will eventually surface as transgender and the only difference will be in an individual finally coming to terms with nagging force within or such individual resisting this urge until his demise. So, I put forth this question: can anyone prove that Crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism and a valid ingredient in Transgenderism since inception?

[rosuto]

Transgender is an umbrella term created by the community for:
-Transexuals
-Crossdressers
-Transvestites
-Drag Kings
-Drag Queens
-Gender Queer People
-Androgynous People
-Effeminate Men
-Butch Women

and anyone else who does not specifically fit the social norms of being gender male or gender female.

So to answer your question, if your a crossdresser, you are transgendered.

[NicoleScott]

No, there are crossdressers who dress only for excitement and, when not crossdressed, live a normal male life. Never a thought of being transgendered, as you put it, I assume you mean transitionig to live full-time as a woman. (Rosuto got it right: transgender is a big umbrella term).

[Mary Morgan]

No, no one has been able to prove much of anything although there is no shortage of theories. For me, it is enough to say I am what I am. I've always wanted to be a girl and I never will be. The best I can do is try as hard as I can within the framework of a life lived. I crossdress, but it is by no means all there is to me.

[Karinsamatha]

Rosuto is correct. Transgendered is a term that more or less coveres all facits of who we are, and where we fit.
My self I would like to transition in the future. I am at the point in my journey that I find presenting as a man to be exhausting and stressfull. This has occured over a 7 year time frame. I had repressed a portion of my self that came to the surface over the last seven years.
There are people who are content putting on a few items of clothes for a few hours and being done with it for days or weeks - they may never progress beyond that level. Others have gone way beyond it to surgery and full transition.

[Kelly Greene]

I don't believe we are predestined to find the same end on our journey we may start at a similar place but we each must follow the road as it unfold in front of us.
crossdressing is an end for some of us and a beginning for others.

[renee k]

I know that this topic may get us into heated debate but heated debate is good in good intentions. I often read a post about a crossdresser who solely identifies with just crossdressing and that is that, to later read same person finally embracing idea of something more happening in their life. The desire to venture outside of norm and present as an opposite sex in it self is predecessor to transgender condition. To express femininity by male is to directly come into embrace with the opposite set of ingredients and therefore to state the societal dislike and rebel against masculine character. Its just the clothes you say, no, it is always more than that, the image of femininity and assimilation with feminine form. I personally feel that all gender flux specific tendencies will eventually surface as transgender and the only difference will be in an individual finally coming to terms with nagging force within or such individual resisting this urge until his demise. So, I put forth this question: can anyone prove that Crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism and a valid ingredient in Transgenderism since inception?

In my situation, I can't prove it and certainly believe that there is more to it than putting on a dress.


No, no one has been able to prove much of anything although there are no shortage of theories. For me, it is enough to say I am what I am. I've always wanted to be a girl and I never will be. The best I can do is try as hard as I can within the framework of a life lived. I crossdress, but it is by no means all there is to me.

Mary, I totally agree with you. I've walked down the same road.

Renee

[t-girlxsophie]

I too progressed after divorce to dressing much,much more till it was all consuming,that was until recently when my wife and I had a heartfelt discussion about our life,my femme self had taken over so that my male self took a back seat.my Wife missed him,so now she gets to see him a little more and thats the crux of the matter if i Woke up in the morning transitioned would I be happy and content,no I would miss aspects of him that would stop me from transitioning.Does that make me a crossdresser and no more,no I still feel I am Transgender-thats the way I see myself,am sure others will think different

:hugs:Sophie

[sissystephanie]

Going by Rosuto's definition of Trangendered, I guess that I am Transgendered!! I have been a CD for over 70 years, and have never had any desire to actually be a woman! I simply just like to wear their clothes! When my late wife was still alive, she could make me look like a GG!! I cannot do that and don't even try. I still dress enfemme, but go out looking just like the male that I am!! As long as I am decent and observe the law, I can wear what I want!! And I do!! I ate dinner tonight in a nice restaurant dressed totally enfemme. But of course no wig or makeup. Just a guy in a skirt and nice top, with the appropiate under garments and shoes. I do that almost every day!!

[Cassandra Lynn]

Transgender is an umbrella term created by the community for:
-Transexuals
-Crossdressers
-Transvestites
-Drag Kings
-Drag Queens
-Gender Queer People
-Androgynous People
-Effeminate Men
-Butch Women

and anyone else who does not specifically fit the social norms of being gender male or gender female.

So to answer your question, if your a crossdresser, you are transgendered.

Ditto for me, and i think those that refuse to accept this are not in complete acceptance with themselves. There is no reason to be afraid of the term transgenderism.
People need to get past those 5 letters at the beginning. The term IMO is a spectrum with the "i'm just a CD at one end, and the "was born the wrong gender" at the other and each individual falls along it somewhere in between. In fact, most of us are on a continous progression from where we started.
But that is just my perspective.
mj (Cassie)

[Lucy_Bella]

When I first joined this forum, I refused to accept the term "Transgender " today I perfer it more than cross dresser.. Although it is an umbrella term it doen't bother me anymore. Whats so bad about it?

These are examples compareing transgender to other terms

You can be Gay and crossdress? Ok , I think you could have any sexual preferance and crossdress .. The question is, does that make you a transgender? I believe it can just because you are attracted to the same sex shouldn't automatically remove you from being a trangender. There are also Gay people who dress appropriate to thier gender.

Now I am in no way dumping on anyones sexual preferance and as it says below I am no expert either..But through ignorance ( my own ) I related the term transgender to being a Gay or a Bi cder.. I was corrected and I was wrong I would also like to add I have NO predjudice to my Gay sisters here..We are all in this together.

Like a few here have mentioned my dressing grew after my seperation from my wife, I have grown to accept my Fem side and have no desires to futher it BUT I do dress more often.. I consider it Emulating a female rather that acting as one due to being in the closet for the most part. I feel the differance between acting as woman and emulating one is in the desire of the Cder. Emulating a woman is a cder who is only into the visual, not going out usally alone and in the closet ( no saying all are this way but I am ) Acting as a woman is Visual , going out dressed and doing things that are accoiated to what women do, shopping , getting nails done, hair dyed etc

[jessica renee]

All this talk about labels... here's the one I prefer.

Me.

Let me explain. I am a crossdresser, that is true. Would I like to transition? I don't know, somedays the answer is yes, other days no. Even as a little kid, I never fit neatly into any one group. I was never the popular kid, didn't fit in with the "nerdy" kids, I was just basically what you'd call a loner. As I've gotten older, I have come to accept this as well as my dressing. Maybe others need a label to define themselves, and I'm fine with that, but I am just fine being myself.

[Patricia Johnson]

I have checked myself periodically to see if I am a transexual or a crossdresser and I know I am a crossdresser. I don't see myself as a woman on the inside. I think that is the necessary component to have. I love getting dressed and trying to perfect the "Fab" side, but I also don't want to end my so called "Drab" aspect either. I enjoy being me: a guy who loves dressing up and what that entails. I never ever want to physically remove or alter who I am to match internally who I feel that I am because inwardly and outwardly I am in sync. I am a guy inside and out, I just love 4 inch heels. LOL

[Gerrijerry]

All I consider myself is a person. You can add a label if you want but does it change anything.
You want to call yourself a cd fine think you are TS fine. All the labels are for is when someone else wants to put you in a fixed catagory. I say if you are happy the way you are then ok with me. If you are not then you may need some counseling. Either way I will support the person you are and the person you want to be. This thinking that you have to fit into one label or another makes many upset so why even think in those terms.

[charlotte_sp]

Seconding rosuto...transgender is often used as an umbrella term for any kind of gender nonconformity.


So, I put forth this question: can anyone prove that Crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism and a valid ingredient in Transgenderism since inception?

Based on the context of your post, I think this question is a re-hash of "aren't all cross-dressers just closet transsexuals?", and it's disingenuous to present it as anything else.

While this may be accurate for some or even most cross-dressers (I went through this phase as well), this question is pretty irritating for two reasons:

1. It invalidates the experiences of the people who really do not have any desire to transition, based on nothing besides personal or anecdotal experience.

Maybe they are in the minority, or maybe most of them stopped posting because of tiresome BS like this, but please respect their identity. The fact that there are some or many cross-dressers in denial in your personal experience does not erase the existence of male-identified cross-dressers.

2. This question reinforces the idea that there is only one way to be trans:

"You must take hormones. You must have GRS. You must do x, y, and z. Anything else is not valid."

Implicitly, it also reinforces the strict gender roles that we should be fighting:

"You cannot be a male who engages in some feminine behavior. If you do anything feminine, you must be a closeted trans woman. Transition now!"

The question posed to specific individuals is usually fine when it's based on observations about their behavior, but when it's posited as a universal truth as it is here, it is almost always self-righteous and disrespectful. If you are genuinely concerned about the mental toll closeting and rejection of one's female gender identity have on cross-dressers, then express that sentiment through sharing your experiences instead of broad, condescending generalizations.

[Rianna Humble]

I personally feel that all gender flux specific tendencies will eventually surface as transgender and the only difference will be in an individual finally coming to terms with nagging force within or such individual resisting this urge until his demise. So, I put forth this question: can anyone prove that Crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism and a valid ingredient in Transgenderism since inception?

I will assume that you meant to write transsexual since transgender covers all behaviour that transcends the bounds of the gender binary stereotype.

I cannot agree that all gender flux behaviour will eventually lead to transsexuality since there is a growing body of evidence that transsexuality is biological. Unfortunately, the most convincing evidence has to be taken post mortem so I am in no hurry to provide that from myself :eek:

Can cross-dressing precede transsexuality? IMNSHO no because I believe that you are either born TS or you are not.

Can cross-dressing precede the acceptance that you are TS? Most definitely yes. When I finally gave in to the need to wear the right clothing, I was still fighting the fact that I am TS.

Can cross-dressing precede the decision to seek help for transition? Again yes, either as in my case or where the person has circumstances that weigh against an early transition.

Is cross-dressing a valid ingredient in being transsexual? This, to me, depends upon your standpoint. It did not make me transsexual but rather was an outworking of my gradual acceptance of who I am. To many around me, I probably still appear to be cross-dressing, but is this the case given that I am in my RLE?


No, no one has been able to prove much of anything although there is no shortage of theories. For me, it is enough to say I am what I am. I've always wanted to be a girl and I never will be. The best I can do is try as hard as I can within the framework of a life lived. I crossdress, but it is by no means all there is to me.

I'm not so sure as you that there is no proof of anything in this matter (see above). You are at a great place when you can say as you did "I am what I am", but it makes me sad when you say that you can never be what you have always wanted to be - a girl.


All this talk about labels... here's the one I prefer.

Me.

Let me explain. I am a crossdresser, that is true. Would I like to transition? I don't know, somedays the answer is yes, other days no. Even as a little kid, I never fit neatly into any one group. I was never the popular kid, didn't fit in with the "nerdy" kids, I was just basically what you'd call a loner. As I've gotten older, I have come to accept this as well as my dressing. Maybe others need a label to define themselves, and I'm fine with that, but I am just fine being myself.

I applaud anyone who just wants to be themself. There are differences in our experiences, however, and labels are a useful way to classify those differences provided that they are not used to divide.

You cross dress and (most of the time) that is enough for you - we have in common that we wear what society would say is clothing for the opposite gender.

I was born in the wrong body, but have only recently come to admit the full force of what that means. We are both part of the same family although not identical.

When we concentrate on that which unites us rather than that which divides us, we become stronger. On the other hand, you and I have different support needs and the knowledge that I am TS helps others to understand my needs. For that reason I do not reject the label out of hand.

When I talk of support, I do not mean acting as a mutual admiration society - I have been glad when people have pointed out that something I said or was about to do was mistaken. That too is support.



tiresome BS

I don't think that categorising a question as "tiresome BS" is in any way helpful to anyone other than the person writing those words.

The OP introduces the topic by saying she has read several people who claimed to be nothing more than CD and later realised that they were more. This then gives the context of the question that you describe as
broad, condescending generalizations.

I believe this to be a genuine question borne out of valid observations and a desire to understand and therefore cannot agree when you say that
This question reinforces the idea that there is only one way to be trans:


:2c:

[Jeanna]

Question: Can anyone prove that Crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism and a valid ingredient in Transgenderism since inception?[

Crossdressing and transgender are 2 different things. Crossdressing is just that, Hi my name is Bill and I wear a dress compared to My name is Jill and I hate wearing drab.I understand exactly where you are coming from and it makes sense. I'm certainly beyond crossdressing and it only started out that way. Now I have a fem name, walk and act like a lady.Am I just a crossdresser? Wearing womens clothes is on thing that can lead into someone taking it further. We can program ourselves to want to be more and more fem. People can be programmed to accept that it's ok to kill other human beings,porn can program the mind in evil ways as well, so why is it so hard to think that people can't be programmed to become the other sex even if done unintentionally? It starts with clothes,,,,,

Jeanna

[msniki48]

No, no one has been able to prove much of anything although there is no shortage of theories. For me, it is enough to say I am what I am. I've always wanted to be a girl and I never will be. The best I can do is try as hard as I can within the framework of a life lived. I crossdress, but it is by no means all there is to me.

Mary, what beautiful words to live by. :daydreaming: [ I think i must do a re-think]

PS: love your avatar.

hugs msniki48

Alexia, this is very thought provoking subject for me, and i can see....others too.


As some have said there are definately some of the girls who truly do this for pleaseure and sometimes sexual gratification. There are , however, so many of us, that cross dress purely because it is the only avenue for us at this time in our lives....whether we know it or not. it was not till i went to therapy that i was able to answer some of the questions and actually embrace who and what i am. yet i dressed in private all my life. So, there might not be conclusive proof of what you say, but i think the theory is in the right direction.

Hugs:battingeyelashes:

[linda allen]

I have checked myself periodically to see if I am a transexual or a crossdresser and I know I am a crossdresser. I don't see myself as a woman on the inside. I think that is the necessary component to have. I love getting dressed and trying to perfect the "Fab" side, but I also don't want to end my so called "Drab" aspect either. I enjoy being me: a guy who loves dressing up and what that entails. I never ever want to physically remove or alter who I am to match internally who I feel that I am because inwardly and outwardly I am in sync. I am a guy inside and out, I just love 4 inch heels. LOL

That pretty well sums it up for me also. I've never felt I was born in the wrong body, I think and act like a male, I have male hobbies, and I don't really like many female pastimes such as shopping or collecting trinkets.

I do like to dress and try to look like a female and I love the feeling of having breasts even though they are not real. If I could have a female body, that would be great, but I would still think and act like a male and obviously, that would create lots of problems.

[AKAMichelle]

I can't prove it but I have seen some who are just cd'ers. I just don't fit that tight definition since I spend so much time as Michelle

[Sophie_C]

Transgender is an umbrella term created by the community for:
-Transexuals
-Crossdressers
-Transvestites
-Drag Kings
-Drag Queens
-Gender Queer People
-Androgynous People
-Effeminate Men
-Butch Women

and anyone else who does not specifically fit the social norms of being gender male or gender female.

So to answer your question, if your a crossdresser, you are transgendered.

Exactly what is this according to, other than yourself?

I only consider men with an inherent female identity and women with an inherent male identity to be transgender, and for everything I have ever read in terms of the medical community and law, for the matter, it's seen in the same way.

I do not consider fetishistic crossdressers/transvestites who do it for a sexual high, gay boys who like to put on war paint for kicks (drag queens / kings), androgynous people (so David Bowie is transgender now? LOL), effeminate men and butch women (a sizable part of the gay community who would definitely disagree) to be transgender since all of that has ZERO to do with gender identity.

You could put all of them in a big bucket called "trans" but that is not the same as "transgender." No.

Now, to answer the initial question, crossdressing can be one of the early steps in one coming to an awareness that they have an incongruent gender identity. It also can be for all sorts of different reasons, having nothing to do with it. I have no doubt there are plenty of crossdressers who are transgendered that put the breaks on self-understanding due to fears, family, loved ones, etc; but that doesn't mean that there aren't crossdressers who are definitely with a congruent gender identity who just do it for kicks.

[Rianna Humble]

Sophie, If you substitute the word transsexual for transgender in your definition then you are right, but only then.

You say that trans is not the same as transgender and claim medical authority for that. Perhaps you should tell the UK's National Health Service that they don't know what they are talking about when they define the terms on http://www.nhs.uk/livewell/transhealth/pages/transoverview.aspx

[Inna]

Thank you ladies for your heartfelt thoughts, as I set out to understand our intricate conditions which in every case are as individual as individuals them selves, one specific idea struck me deep. We often shrug when thought of a label and hate the ideals of such because we ourselves feel grander than just a selfless condition. When I think of someone in strictly intellectual means I label the individual into a box, I feel this is what our mind does intrinsically. When we learn in college we box information into retrievable storage bin. But when I approach a person with loving embrace and leave my intellect behind, I see all the colors of the rainbow light up and look into his/hers soul as they truly are, a loving, unique person with wealth of experience and world of emotions to share. At that point all the labels disappear and CD or TS or whatever doesn't mean a thing. I feel that in order to truly embrace this kind of relationship, we must look into each others eyes and physically be present to have this level of understanding, internet however advanced and helpful tool will remain as artificial of a tool as labeling into boxes is. We can learn a lot from internet but I can we truly see the other person as they are?

[TiffanyTgirl]

My input would be that some are transgendered and cd'ing is just a stop on the road. However, I think that many of the girls here are evidence enough to prove that cd'ing is just that cd'ing. They don't transition or play with hormones. They just work on their look and presentation. And they can take it off and leave.

[Loni]

I do not know were i truly fit into this, but i am a male and will always be such. i love woman so much i try to look like one. i dress most of the time when not at work, even when presenting in male mode i have womens clothing on. (simple jeans and top, and shoes). i still do have some male things here, mostly cause my mom keeps buying me T-shirts. but i can not remember the last time i wore a pair of men's jeans.
I guess this puts me square in the middle of being a cross dresser, as i will not have srs. nor will i stop buying skirts/dresses, just love them on me so much.
but if only i could loose 100 pounds. a couple inches off my shoulders, and add a inch to my hips, and get a foot shorter. (dream on)
but i do what i can with what i got. and try to enjoy every moment of life that i can. (but then i have had a couple things happen in my life...that almost ended it).
call me a cross dress or transgendered, to me it does not matter...just do not call me late to dinner. :-)

[ReineD]

So, I put forth this question: can anyone prove that Crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism and a valid ingredient in Transgenderism since inception?

First, I think you're confusing the term "transgender" with "transsexual". As others have stated, transgender is an umbrella term for anyone that crosses the gender divide.

To answer your question, I'd look at available statistics. How many TGs go on to live full time (or near FT), or take hormones, or wish to transition? Few, in comparison to the TG community as a whole. And this doesn't make those who've achieved inner gender balance, fetichists.

[Frédérique]

The desire to venture outside of norm and present as an opposite sex in it self is predecessor to transgender condition. To express femininity by male is to directly come into embrace with the opposite set of ingredients and therefore to state the societal dislike and rebel against masculine character.

An “opposite set of ingredients” according to what you have chosen to emulate, I would add. I do not wish to embrace all varieties of femininity, according to an individual’s definition, and there are many to choose from. The ongoing rebellion against masculine character is something that I discuss often around here. Did you know, Alexia, that some males dress as females yet remain males in all but appearance? I find this very hard to understand, since I, like you, believe that crossdressing is merely a manifestation of something far deeper, i.e. trangenderism. Venturing outside the norm is my raison d'être…


So, I put forth this question: can anyone prove that Crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism and a valid ingredient in Transgenderism since inception?

Well, I’ve bumped into a few characters on this site that were definitely not on the road to transgenderism, yet they would crossdress. These individuals would come crashing into the site thusly: “Hello! Like panties! Don’t know why! Confused! NOT GAY! Like girls! Need a bra! Won’t wear wig! Let’s talk!” and etc… You can argue that this person is transgendered to a degree, but they don’t wish to contemplate the idea. You may put on the clothes, wonder what’s going on, then look for some like-minded individuals, even find a place like this, but no genuine “conversation” ensues. Others dip their toe in the water, then withdraw – I’ve seen many posts where someone will say, “I’m not comfortable with this,” or “I’ve come to the conclusion that this is not for me.” They leave, dismissing our “community” as superfluous, inexplicable, or worse. I contend that those individuals are not transgendered in the least, but I’m only going on what has been written and submitted – who knows what is actually going on in someone’s life. I can't prove anything...
:straightface:

[JohnH]

I myself who like to wear women's clothing obviously am not transgendered [except in a very loose sense-(edited addition)]. I haven't even adopted a feminine name but retain my masculine name of John. At no time do I imagine myself as being a woman, and I would much rather be called "Sir" instead of "Ma'am" and be referred to by masculine third person pronouns, e.g., "he" instead of "she" no matter what I am wearing. I like to think that I am a freestyler instead of a crossdresser,

I do have natural breasts as it runs in my family.

I took the Cognati (?) test and there was a question of when you decided you were born of the wrong gender (dysphoria) and I was not able to answer that question truthfully since there was no option for "Never".

Obviously everybody is different. Of course I'm on the opposite side from someone who would have the potential to transition.

[ReineD]

I respect your position, JohnH, but just out of curiosity, why do you like to dress in women's clothes?

Also, it is my understanding that "transgender" means crossing a gender boundary, even if it is only in appearance. There are many ways to cross it and not everyone who does so relates in part or in full with the opposite gender's ID.

Threads like these are interesting, but difficult since some people either are not aware, or they do not want to recognize the generally accepted definitions of some of the basic terms.

[carhill2mn]

" So, I put forth this question: can anyone prove that Crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism and a valid ingredient in Transgenderism since inception?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Labels usually are not adequate to properly describe someone as the label will likely have different meanings to different people. Labels also create a sort of "box" that can be limiting.
What would "prove that crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism"? If the label transgender is a term that includes crossdressing then, crossdressing is a part of transgenderism and does not "lead" to it.

[karezza]

I definitely agree that some people crossdress without coming near to, much less crossing, the transgender line. I've met a few. They are firmly in the male mindset, thinking like males and acting like males, except for the clothes. I would call them crossdressing fetishists; definitely not transgendered. But, in my experience, they are very much a minority. Most of us feel something deeper when we dress. On some level we identify with the female gender. How far we take it is usually determined by life circumstances. Many here have responded that their transgender identity surged into overdrive when they divorced and were able to express their feminine side without restraint. Others never had that experience.

Last week, my wife asked me to explain the connection between crossdressing and my sexual identity. She had been talking with a mutual friend who said he enjoyed wearing women's lingerie, but never wanted to dress full-on on a regular basis. I explained that he's an occasional crossdresser for fun and kink, but I'm transgendered. My core sexual identity is feminine. I don't have to crossdress to know that, but crossdressing reinforces it. Likewise, feeling sexually female reinforces my desire to crossdress.

I was out to dinner alone en drab recently. I struck up a conversation with a woman at the bar and somehow the topic of my gender orientation came up. To her, I appeared to be a regular guy. I told her that I crossdress and showed her some pictures. When I explained by sexual identification as female, she was incredulous. I just smiled and said this is so satisfying, I'd never go back to being a regular guy.

I also agree that transexuality is a different subject. Whereas transgenderism involves the psychological identification with the opposite gender, or other forms of gender fluidity, true transexuality seems to be more genetic. I think of it as a transgendered mind vs. a transexual brain.

As for me, crossdressing was indeed the first step toward a transgender awakening. I started as a fetishist, but the experience touched something very deep in me, and as time went on, I realized that I really do identify psychologically, and sexually, with the opposite gender. However, I have never felt that I was born in the wrong body. For most of my life I was perfectly content being male. The awakening of my transgendered mind has just opened up a vast side of myself that was dormant. In a sense I'm both genders, although most happy in the feminine. I dress every moment I can, being andro when I can't be fully en femme. But I don't completely reject my male side. I just find it remarkably boring by comparison :)

[ReineD]

What would "prove that crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism"? If the label transgender is a term that includes crossdressing then, crossdressing is a part of transgenderism and does not "lead" to it.

I may be wrong, but I took the OP as suggesting that CDers (other than those who CD for purely sexual reasons perhaps) are in denial about being TS. I've read the question before, here and in other forums: "What's the difference between a CD & a TS? Three years". I think it's a question that circulates mostly in TS circles.

I think that generally someone who is TS has just as much difficulty in understanding CDs as the GGs do. Unless you're a CDer, it's hard to understand the concept of dual gender, since we were mostly all raised in a binary gender world.

Also, what makes the discussion confusing is that some people refuse to agree on basic terminology, so that we can all understand each other. I gather there are many people here who think that someone who is transgender is in between being a crossdresser and a transsexual.

[liz.thomas]

I've always wodered if there is a real difference of the words Crossdressers and Transvestites. The wiki definition doesn't seem to uncover anything for me. Is there a difference or are these just generalities?

Liz

[Cassandra Lynn]

As i said in my post, i think many are tripped up on the Trans part. Being Transsexual and transitioning toward the correct gender has that degree of finality. The "crossing" to them seems to have that element of extremeness(?).

I still can't help but see a sense of fear and unacceptance in that need to deny the the TG term.

And many here don't strive for total duality, so therefore they are merely Crossdressers. Wonder what their reaction would be to the term transdresser?

Reine, I liked your response to JohnH's post, and while i'm not trying to muddy the OPs waters, what do we do about the "why wear the clothing?" question. Many seem to draw their Crossdresser vs. Transgender line at the wig, make-up and shapewear level. Are we incorrect in thinking there has to be some sense of femininity being reached for in "just the clothing", seems there would have to be some need for the gender "crossing".

mj (Cassie)

[karezza]

Liz,

I think the terms transvestite and crossdresser are essentially interchangeable. However, they do have subtle differences in interpretation. "Transvestite" is an older term that usually implies a fetishistic or kinky sexual component. "Crossdresser" is a newer term that usually does not imply a sexual component. In Wikipedia, they say Transvestite was coined in 1910 and was linked to sexual arousal, gay, bi, or heterosexual. They say Crossdresser came into use in the 1970's by heterosexual males who were not fetishistic and were unhappy with being labeled TV.

In curent usage, it is hard to tell the difference unless you ask the person. In broad generalities, someone identified as TV might be more into the sexual or kink side of things, whereas someone identified as CD might (or might not) be more sexually conventional. But people are all over the map in the terms they use to describe themselves, their gender identification and sexual orientation, so you can't assume anything from the terminology.

[charlie]

Hello Alexia!
On the contrary, I believe that all of us here who dress are transgendered to some degree. Regular males would not be dressing in feminine clothes at all. I also see in myself that when I start dressing on a regular basis (3-4 days running) that I begin to yearn to dress this way 24/7. I start thinking who I am and how my life may be more fulfilled if I started looking into transitioning. I have come to realize that I am a transgendered individual that is married, that loves woman and also loves to be one. Since my life has been lived as a male, it is best that I control my urges to just those that are important and necessary to my life. After a few days of returning to my regular male life (job, husband, father) I can keep all the urges in line and controlled.

[ReineD]

Reine, Are we incorrect in thinking there has to be some sense of femininity being reached for in "just the clothing", seems there would have to be some need for the gender "crossing".

I agree that for some CDs, it is about getting in touch with a degree of femininity, even if it is merely enjoying the luxurious feel and the wonderful colors and styles of the fabrics. Yet like JohnH, these same CDs enjoy being men, they solidly identify as men, and they would never even wish to be identified as women. Someone who feels this way may develop it further down the road, or he may not.

But, this still doesn't mean that a gender barrier has not been crossed, hence the appropriateness of using the term "transgender" for everyone ... even those who merely enjoy the clothes.

:2c:

[JohnH]

I respect your position, JohnH, but just out of curiosity, why do you like to dress in women's clothes?


I just like how they look and feel in addition to the usual men's clothes that I wear. I would like to go out to symphony concerts with a black velvet dress in place of the usual boring coat and tie with that "bird breast" look. Also my wife does not wear skirts, dresses, and heels so I take up the slack! I also have much longer hair than she does.

A skirt does not have that wedge of cloth against the boys downstairs and it's cooler than shorts in hot weather. A dress also has the comfort of not having the binding in the waist. Needless to say that I have no use whatsoever for tucking!

I do not wear any women's shorts or pants - if I wear any women's clothing it will be skirts or dresses.

I do have some panties I came across while I was sorting through boxes left by my ex-wife, so I do wear them. I certainly would not have gone out and bought them since I have some completely serviceable men's briefs. I do not wear makeup or any bras, shapewear, or wigs. Oftentimes I do have my toenails painted.

After reading through the responses I guess I could say in a very loose sense that when I wear women's clothing that I am transgendered - however, I do not identify myself at anytime as a woman.

[ReineD]

Thanks for the response, John! :)

[Inna]

Oh girls, responses galore! I am truly overwhelmed with variety of feelings you are shearing. From anger at classification to embracing idea of transgender being all encompassing. In my original post I have used transgender and not transsexual because I have heard often crossdressers distinctly not associating crossdressing with transgenderism. However throughout this discussion and mention of transsexualism I am starting to see much broader spectrum of variety and yet similarity within our family. I too have lived parts of my life as male and only male, not because I wanted to but because circumstances drove her out of me into deepest depths of my sole. I distinctly remember forgetting of who I was and pushing through life with masculinity as driving force. There I have experienced living as a warrior, true masculine, full on male and there was not a chance then for me to even look at the possibility of feminine anything. I fully embraced masculinity and ventured into mans world and denied true self and denied Alexia. Those were darkest times of my life, but I have learned the meaning of masculine and there was no room for any softness, flamboyancy, or thought of wearing anything remotely resembling feminine anything. From there I take my ideas of crossdressing in any shape or form being out of masculine character and therefore being a transgendered activity. Again I stress it is my sole observation and I reserve the right to be wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am on the quest to understand my self and through which I know I have denied my self lots of times and denied Alexia's existence. Through my own denial I understand that it is a common theme throughout our struggle and a necessary evil we must conquer to finally arrive at who we really are.
If I imagine our condition as an ocean, some of us are satisfied with the beach and comforts it provides, safe on the sands and safe near the shore, then some like to explore bit further to feel the waters envelop their being but safe enough to still see the land close by, and then there are those who will stand nothing but ocean it self surrounding their soul from horizon to horizon and as deep as it is vast. But after all, we are enjoying the same waters!

[NicoleScott]

Also, what makes the discussion confusing is that some people refuse to agree on basic terminology, so that we can all understand each other. I gather there are many people here who think that someone who is transgender is in between being a crossdresser and a transsexual.

The OP posed a good question, and it has been answered: no. JohnH tells why in his case, and others like me who dress for pleasure identify as male, just like to dress up occasionally, and will never transition or identify as feminine.
But this discussion, like many others here, got sidetracked by failure to agree on the definition of terms. Maybe we need a page, a glossary, so that FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCUSSION, we can use terms with some agreement of meaning.
To me, crossdresser and transvestite are the same. trans (latin) = cross(englsh) vest (latin) = dress/clothing (english)
Since my dressing is fetish-based, others would call me a transvestite, but I prefer to be called a crossdresser. It's splitting hairs. I think that those who want to call me a transvestite wish to reserve the term crossdresser for themselves, to separate dress-for-pleasure dressers from gender identity dressers who are not or not yet transsexuals. Those who have evolved or progressed to transgendered, leaving us knuckle-dragging mere crossdressers behind. But for the purpose of discussion, I would agree to use the term that best defines me, if others will too.
Othewise, good discussions will keep getting off point.

[sometimes_miss]

So, I put forth this question: can anyone prove that Crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism and a valid ingredient in Transgenderism since inception?
For some of us it is, for some it is not. The difficulty lies in attempting to make one theory fit everyone, when the reasons and causes for crossdressing can be varied.

[JohnH]

While I don't think of myself as a woman at any time, I still have a feminine side that is expressed in my long hair, painted toenails, and the desire to wear skirts, dresses, and heels. It's interesting that my wife has none of those attributes and urges since she has short hair, does not wear nail polish, and wears only pants (other than sleepwear) and flat shoes. She was raised to be like a man, but she uses makeup and I don't. In the future I may just experiment with makeup.

[Added statements] - I'm a lot happier when I can express my feminine desires - I'm not depressed as I was when I suppressed my feminine side. I have been able to lose weight when I quite suppressing my feminine side. As I lose weight my breasts and hips become more prominent - I no longer am just a blob of fat and I am starting to get a shape - I would like to get my waist down to 35 inches, so I will have the dimensions of 44-35-42 without any shapeware or padding. My blood pressure has gone from 160/100 (no medication - high weight) to 120/80 (with medication and lower weight) and my resting heart rate has gone from 85 to 65 beats per minute.

[ReineD]

But this discussion, like many others here, got sidetracked by failure to agree on the definition of terms. Maybe we need a page, a glossary, so that FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCUSSION, we can use terms with some agreement of meaning.

I wholeheartedly agree! Not agreeing on terminology does make discussions difficult, since it diffuses the points that are being made.

Unfortunately there are those who refuse to agree to terms. They persist in defining "transgender" as a state that is between CD and TS. Or there are groups here who refuse to be associated with others. I know there's no hard line between CD and TS, but perhaps people can say they are TSQ (questioning whether they are TS), if they feel they are moving beyond being CD? And not many people use the term "dualgender" if they feel comfortable switching between the two, and they do identify as a woman when they are dressed, and a man when not dressed. But, these are just suggestions.

We do have a thread that defines general terms, and although it is not perfect, I think it is a good start.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?76117-What-Are-All-Those-Abbreviations

[NathalieX66]

Karezza (or is it Kay Fox?), I found your answers are most insightful, especially post #33. .......That is exactly how I am.
Thanks for sharing. :^5:

[Samantha_Smile]

All this talk about labels... here's the one I prefer.

Me.

Let me explain. I am a crossdresser, that is true. Would I like to transition? I don't know, somedays the answer is yes, other days no. Even as a little kid, I never fit neatly into any one group. I was never the popular kid, didn't fit in with the "nerdy" kids, I was just basically what you'd call a loner. As I've gotten older, I have come to accept this as well as my dressing. Maybe others need a label to define themselves, and I'm fine with that, but I am just fine being myself.

Never a truer word luv.
I'm not keen on the label thing either, Ive never liked pigeon holing in any aspect whether it's music, films, books or my gender status.
But Ive come to realise that the labels, while frustrating to have one 'stuck' to you, they are also very convenient as a means of description.
Try to explain to someone what a particular band sound like these days and you get a stream of non linked garbage
"Post pop-punk new wave emo"...... Gazuntite :D

I just think the TG labels should be more precise to avoid insult or confusion.
For example, a transvestic fetishist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism), is very differnt to one who identifies as Cogender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogender), and these again are not the same as a drag queen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_queen).When these things can be differentiated by 100% of the population, then maybe things can move on.

Untill then, do some more reading here http://tiny.cc/29iu0

[Cassandra Lynn]

I agree that for some CDs, it is about getting in touch with a degree of femininity, even if it is merely enjoying the luxurious feel and the wonderful colors and styles of the fabrics. Yet like JohnH, these same CDs enjoy being men, they solidly identify as men, and they would never even wish to be identified as women. Someone who feels this way may develop it further down the road, or he may not.

But, this still doesn't mean that a gender barrier has not been crossed, hence the appropriateness of using the term "transgender" for everyone ... even those who merely enjoy the clothes.

:2c:
Yes, i agree and thanx for putting it in simpler terms, i tend to stumble with words at times.

And thank you John for your last post (#45). I'm going to step out on that flimsy limb and say it appears that you are seeing things a little differently
as we have gone through the posts here. I notice a little more comfort with you saying you like the femininity of dressing, as we have gone along.
I apologize if i'm incorrect and i hope i'm not intruding in any way.

I have used the terms bi-gendered and dual gendered a few times around the forums, but frankly it tends to just muddy the waters even more.
mj (Cassie)

[Annaliese2010]

The field of Psychology has never impressed me very much as a genuine science - more of an art. It has a curious and colorful history that has roots in ancient philosophy (400 BC). Yet even today it struggles with vestiges of this early influence. Psychology wasn't recognized as a science at all until the late 1800's - and this largely due to the influence of physiology - where crossover studies performed at that time forced the scientific method center stage to the field as a whole. I'm not saying it is without value as it is an earnest attempt to understand human behavior. It has its own language and terminology but these are not as rigidly defined or time-consistent as in other more legitimate sciences. It attempts to embrace the scientific method (observation -> hypothesis -> hypothesis testing (prediction) -> validation -> theory) but because of difficulties inherent to its very object of study the application of reductionist methodology is severely compromised and only partially successful - relative to the legitimate sciences (biology, physics, biochemistry, physiology, anatomy, pharmacology...).

Human behavior on a societal and individual basis is variable complex and often unfathomable. This is especially true when significantly new trends manifest become widespread and eventually define new population norms. I believe this explains why there is so much confusion over Transgender terminology. Yesterdays definitions become outmoded, there are too many exceptions, new terms are invented, then others still. The whole system collapses in confusion when even these need to be refined, redefined, merged or discarded.

For instance, in the definition for "Transgender" and other TG-related words - the term "gender line" is specifically referenced in one sense or another - as though it embodies some intrinsic immutable meaning that is immediately informing and generally recognized. This is NOT SO! The "gender line" is NOT constant in time. It changes - and has changed rapidy in recent history. For if Transgender means to cross the gender line - I submit the following: nearly ALL GG woman are transgender relative to the behavior generally considered standard and gender-appropriate for GG women mere decades ago! The gender-line for women has shifted! Significantly! This is not true for men! The currentl definition of what is generally considered acceptable normal male gender behavior REMAINS the same over the same time interval - and beyond! The gender-line for men has not shifted for thousands of years!

Well...it's high time it DID! In fact...it IS! WE are the vaanguard of that change. We are the pioneers! The new world explorers! The brave and quietly courageous; assertive not aggressive yet as well, polite; gorgous not greedy; sharp but also pretty; mellifluous, convincing not obnoxious or domineering; helpful not hurtful; considerate not course; intelligemt, intuitive; patient not punitive; at worst..ok I admit...sometimes wordy petty and a little bitchy - but not so much so as to start a war! Point is...we are about our bigger business - to grab hold of that ol gender-line; to push and pull it; make it glide and slide to redefine the new scale; the new male; all inclusive, broader in scope; with faith love and hope; but none a that nasty 'ol tyranny - nah uh, no no, the old ways are for dopes.

[juno]

I think that it is common for people to further toward fully transgender than they originally feel, because most people start out life trying to align with a standard cisgender. I have always been feminine, but didn't embrace crossdressing until about age 40.

As for the terminology, I think it could use an update. Traditionally, transgender means a person with opposite mental and physical genders, and a transsexual is a transgender person living as their mental gender. Transgender has evolved to include other mental gender variants, for no good reason other than nobody came up with a more appropriate term. We have the term "intersex" for people with an intermediate physical sex. I think we need a term for intermediate mental gender; I propose "mesogender".

[JohnH]

The "gender line" is NOT constant in time. It changes - and has changed rapidy in recent history. For if Transgender means to cross the gender line - I submit the following: nearly ALL GG woman are transgender relative to the behavior generally considered standard and gender-appropriate for GG women mere decades ago! The gender-line for women has shifted! Significantly! This is not true for men! The currentl definition of what is generally considered acceptable normal male gender behavior REMAINS the same over the same time interval - and beyond! The gender-line for men has not shifted for thousands of years!


There have been shifts in the gender line for men recently.
If anything the gender line tightened up for men around the 1940's when boys ceased to wear dresses. At the turn of the previous century boys wore dresses and mary jane shoes. I imagine that when boys wore dresses it would not have been such a big thing for a man to wear a dress. In the 1950's men had to have short hair and no earrings, bracelets, or necklaces. So things have relaxed quite a bit for men since the 1950's.

I made the mistake of taking a walk after drinking a bit too much, and I got busted for public intoxication by two female officers. At the time I was wearing a floral maxi-dress, and I was taken down to the county jail to be detained. I changed clothes to an orange jump suit, and then when I got bailed out, I had to change back to my street clothes, which was the dress, a purse, and women's sandals. I had my toenails painted.

At not time was I harassed for my clothing. It was a bit embarrassing to have to talk to a guard to ask which bail bondsman bailed me out and I had to walk across the street to the bondsman with the dress outfit past visitors, and call my wife to pick me up. She picked me up, and then I had to go back to the jail to get my medication.

The experience was surreal since no one made me feel embarrassed at any time nor harassed me for the clothes I was wearing!

Of course, in the 1950's it would have been a different story!

So guys ("gals") feel free to prance about in your femme attire.

Kind regards,

John

[ReineD]

Traditionally, transgender means a person with opposite mental and physical genders,

And also people who sometimes feel as if they are the opposite gender. Many CDs feel this way. Also those who wish to get in touch with aspects of the opposite gender, without necessarily identifying as such. The latter group is considered TG, since these individuals do cross (the definition of "trans" is "to cross") gender boundaries at some level.


and a transsexual is a transgender person living as their mental gender.

No. There are TSs who know they are women, but they still live as male, for a variety of reasons.

[Jonianne]

......Also those who wish to get in touch with aspects of the opposite gender, without necessarily identifying as such. The latter group is considered TG, since these individuals do cross (the definition of "trans" is "to cross") gender boundaries at some level.

The way I commonly describe myself, as someone who wants to identify "with" or along side females, but inside I can't identify "as" a female. Sort of a cross-gender identification.

[Rianna Humble]

Sort of a cross-gender identification.

Or you could have used the latin prefix instead of the English one and said "Sort of a transgender identification" :)

[Stacye Rose]

While I will freely admit to being both a crossdresser and therefore transgendered, I don't personally care for either term. I have chosen my own term for who and what I am, I am a Gender Adventuress

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

I identify with crossdresser, transgender and (even though the word makes me cringe) transvestite. I do not identify as a transexual, drag queen or transvestic fetishist, because I know that that isn't what I am. Of all the terms I've come across, the one I like the most because I feel that it fits me the best is that I'm a femulator. What I do is femulate (http://www.femulate.org/). :)

[charlotte_sp]

I don't think that categorising a question as "tiresome BS" is in any way helpful to anyone other than the person writing those words.

You're right, it wasn't very helpful. Probably the wording of the post, especially "prove", triggered the response. It does express my sentiments exactly though, so I won't apologize for it.

I guess a more useful way to describe the question is "frustratingly insensitive and tiresome". Yes, it is still tiresome since it comes up so often from people who should know better.

----

@Alexia:

One red flag for me was that you wrote that you knew it would cause "heated debate". Knowing this, maybe you should have considered more carefully WHY it might cause an emotional response. It's like someone saying, "No offense, but [insert something offensive]". It implies at the very least a carelessness about the effects of your words.

The main problem is that the question ends up being:

"Can you prove that all cross-dressers are not future transsexuals?"

Or equivalently, if you identify as a cross-dresser:

"Can you prove that your identity [as a cross-dresser] is valid?"

That is a seriously insensitive question to ask. No one should have to prove that their identity is valid. Take their word for it that they feel that way! Questioning people's gender expression with this tired theme creates a hostile environment. It only takes a little consideration to avoid this kind of thing.

If you would like to know more about how anyone feels about their gender identity, ask that question respectfully of the group in an open-ended form of "how do you feel about x?" instead of a prescriptive "why don't you feel like y?"

P.S. Again, if you want to discuss the harmful aspects of denial and closeting, then talk about those specifically!

[liz.thomas]

Thanks for the insigh Karezza,

Liz