Women are ruthless.

[Nicole Erin]

They seem to have no sympathy for a bitching TS like myself about the discomfort of the daily ritual to look good.

Every time I tell a woman about my detest for wearing a bra, they say, "That is what women do".

Now the ultimate comment came at school on Friday - I was complaining about the restrooms and said - "Ya know, F*** it, I am just gonna go stand behind the building and p*** from now on". And she says "Enjoy it while you can" (in regards to being able to stand to P**)

Sometimes I think - if I have to be TS, couldn't I have been born female so I could become a man? :heehee:

If you want to go full-time, don't expect sympathy from GG's.
I think maybe the reason they are more accepting is cause they secretly cherish the suffering a GM must endure to become a woman. :tongueout

[Steph.TS]

I've started doing things in a more feminine way, doing make up, crossing my legs when I sit, sit down to pee, I realize that as a woman, I'll have to change alot of things, and I don't know all of the things I have to change how I'll do them. I'd be happy to learn of all the thing I have to change the way I do them, so that I can gain a better idea of what it's like to be a woman.

I think the comments you get, aren't so much merciless, but statements of facts, kinda like saying, 'this is what you have to look forward too' it's possible that the women that are speaking this way to you might not really be supportive, and might be telling you to think twice about this. I'm also afraid I don't know what women would tell another GG who complains about her bra, so I don't know if the tone they used was more or less the same they'd use on a GG...

[Danni Bear]

Nicole,

This comes as a surprise. Why?

women in general are ruthless be they GG or TS. It sometimes is a survival mechanism in a male dominated world.

Will this change over time, I hope so as more women attain positions of power and influence.

Men seldom give women the respect they deserve. As much as all want a world where all are treated equally, it won't happen in our lifetime. We can only hope that for our children and grand children a better world to live in. We all have to do what we can to help them get it.

Danni

[JulieK1980]

Haha! It sounds more like brutal honesty to me.... Sometimes the truth hurts....

[docrobbysherry]

Haha! It sounds more like brutal honesty to me.... Sometimes the truth hurts....

It takes females, what? 16 to 20 years to learn how to be/act like a "woman"? And, most of them r practicing it every waking hour!:eek:

It seems REASONABLE for a TS to take a SIMILAR length of time to become comfortable being/acting like a woman, doesn't it!?:straightface:

[Chickhe]

I suppose it would be a lot like telling a ftm not to cry or to bitch about things...to suck it up and be a man, for example. Early on, when CDing was 'new' to me, I would make remarks to my wife about things like, it is impossible to pick up stuff with long nails or my hair keeps getting in my face or mouth (not so much complaining, but looking for a solution and joking about not being used to it)...but the most I got out of her was, 'now you know what it is like to be a woman'... and its not that she is ruthless, I think she didn't really have an answer, other than you just have to deal with it.

[JulieK1980]

It takes females, what? 16 to 20 years to learn how to be/act like a "woman"? And, most of them r practicing it every waking hour!:eek:

It seems REASONABLE for a TS to take a SIMILAR length of time to become comfortable being/acting like a woman, doesn't it!?:straightface:

That's most certainly true. However, expecting sympathy for just recently dealing with some of the less enjoyable aspects may be a tad on the patronizing side from a female perspective. Imagine you have to deal with something irritating day in and day out due strictly to a physiological development for a multitude of years, and then someone comes along and says, man I've had to deal with this for three days! I know me personally, I would probably be slightly irritated or at the very least non-plussed by their frustration. (I'm sadistic as well, I'd probably laugh) :P

[Rianna Humble]

They seem to have no sympathy for a bitching TS like myself about the discomfort of the daily ritual to look good.

Every time I tell a woman about my detest for wearing a bra, they say, "That is what women do".

Not all women wear a bra :eek: - seems to depend on their comfort level.

I was telling my HR representative about the number of times I had changed my mind about what to wear for a formal meeting and she replied "welcome to the world of women" but it was with a big smile on her face so I took it as being supportive. My line manager then quipped about his wife looking at a full wardrobe and saying she's got nothing to wear, so I told him "don't worry, you wouldn't understand - you're a man!" :heehee:

[Kate Simmons]

Basically it's their way of saying:'Hey, if you can't stand the 'heat', then get out of the 'kitchen'":)

[fluffy]

I'm afraid I have a more sober view on this:

Women who do this welcome the fact that you're struggling with becoming a woman because it's an acknowledgement of their victimhood. The thoughts are kind of like:
"See? Now you finally realize how hard we women have it and how much sympathy we deserve!"

It is completely wrong of course because, however hard being a women supposedly is, it will never be anything like as hard as it is for a TS - and maybe even for the average man.

@ Danny Bear:
Society might be ruled by men, but men sure as hell do not rule society.
You get the difference right?

[Danni Bear]

I'll give you that one Fluffy. Men rarely even know what society is. It is up to women to tell them how to act most of the time.

Danni

[fluffy]

I see.
So men are stupid and women are clever, right?

[JulieK1980]

I'll give you that one Fluffy. Men rarely even know what society is. It is up to women to tell them how to act most of the time.

Danni

True in soooooo many different ways. lol

[fluffy]

People, I really don't appreciate sexism or misandry anymore than misogyny or racism. Please cut it out. It's hateful and can be very harmful to the younger males in particular. Consider that some of us might be the way we are BECAUSE of such anti-male sentiment.
Has that occurred to any of you?

Hate sucks!!!!!

[JulieK1980]

People, I really don't appreciate sexism or misandry anymore than misogyny or racism. Please cut it out. It's hateful and can be very harmful to the younger males in particular. Consider that some of us might be the way we are BECAUSE of such anti-male sentiment.
Has that occurred to any of you?

Hate sucks!!!!!


I'm 100% positive no one here has "anti-male" sentiments. Nor does anyone "hate" males. The basis of the OP's thread is that "women are ruthless" this will of course receive countless counter points to that. If you look closely though, I'm sure you'll see it's light-hearted at best. Realistically I'm sure everyone posting here realizes men and women are equals in this world. We all just differ on the specifics of what makes men and women different or the same.

[linnea]

Frankly, I don't agree that women are ruthless; I do think that bitchiness brings out bitchiness. Some female circumstances like the physiology of p***** cannot be changed. Wearing a bra, on the other hand, can be a choice for many women (some, of course, need to wear a bra because of the weight and size of their breasts).
But I have not found women in general to be ruthless. I have seen, I think, similar numbers of ruthless men as ruthless women.
I guess that I've been lucky.

[charlotte_sp]

@Nicole: I'm pretty sure you're just being self-deprecating, but in case you really don't understand why they would say that, please try to understand that women deal with all sorts of issue that are not always acknowledged by society (though it's getting better). When you start complaining about things they do every day, it gives the impression that you never cared about their issues until they started affecting you.

@fluffy: I agree that the male gender role is stricter and less forgiving than the female one in the US. I think that the implication that you gave that being male may be objectively more difficult than being female ON AVERAGE is pretty much a massive denial of all available evidence (especially outside the US, Europe, etc.). Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to invalidate your personal experience, but this peculiar idea that male privilege is not the norm in every modern society really needs to die.


I'll give you that one Fluffy. Men rarely even know what society is. It is up to women to tell them how to act most of the time.

Danni

I agree with fluffy that maybe this was a bit harsh, but then again not caring much about etiquette seems to be a common theme in many people's definition of masculinity.

[CalamityJane]

May I ask what sort of sympathy are you looking for? I really don't know what you would expect a GG to say to you...it is something that they have lived with for a very long time if they happen to wear a bra. And if you have an issue with the washrooms it would be far more productive to complain to someone who could rectify the problem, I would assume that there is a janitor on site who could reslove the problems.
Lastly, depending upon the age of the people to whom you are complaining they could well be at the at where the menopause is wreaking havoc with their hormone levels giving them hot flashes etc, etc, a problem that you may not have to endure. In short....Be careful what you wish for in life.

[MiamiMarie]

As a GG, perhaps I can explain these reactions. In general, women have no sympathy for men. We just don't (at least when they are not our own offspring). Now fluffy, this is not to "hate" on men or call them stupid or us clever. That's not the point. Women in general have to live up to much higher expectations set by society and even other women. I apologize for the length of this, but to illustrate my point:

Women are expected to be beautiful, thin, pretty, polite, attractive, nuturing, sexy, incredible mothers, gorgeous, domestic/neat, stunning, shaved fully below the brow line, lovely, fashionable, graceful, and did I mention beautiful? We are expected to hide the fact that we fart, douche, or get PMS. And now with women's lib we are also often required to have careers and education as well as raise children, what was supposed to be a choice is often now a double obligation. We are taught from an early age that walking alone in a parking lot at night = rape, that men are cheaters by nature, and to forgive men their shortcomings because "boys will be boys," and we are extremely lucky to have them, especially if we are over 30. We are brainwashed into thinking that we need to get married, have children, be expectional mothers and to do this all very quickly because the clock is ticking and our sex appeal has a short expiration date.

Men are pretty much only expected to be strong protectors, providers, and have some sexual prowess. Now, if a man is very attractive, has a big dick, or makes lots of money, he will have an easier time getting women for sure. But the rest of the guys can go to a movie that will tell them they can get an impossibly stunning supermodel without any income or good looks if they have a little charm (and sometimes, not even that). Women are inherently reminded that it's a "man's world" every day of their lives. We expect ourselves to be everything and we expect ourselves to do it all as gracefully as possible. Men simply don't subject themselves to such standards, frankly, I think they are smarter for it.

I can sympathize with what you are going through, and I know that being TS has extremely difficult challenges. But it's like knowing a billionaire who gave away all his money to charity and now has to live in your neighborhood. You may think of him as a hero, try to make him comfortable in your neighborhood and show him around, but you don't want to hear any whining about his new surroundings.

[AKAMichelle]

You may have figured it out. They are secretly laughing at TS for wanting to wear a bra and put on makeup everyday

[Pythos]

In their eyes what you are doing is a choice. You do not have to subject yourself to wearing a bra, you don't have to wear the clothing. Frankly I have to say, if you don't like wearing a bra, then why do you do it. If I did not like wearing pantyhose, I would not wear them.

There are also a high majority of women that resent the things they need to do, and having a male that chooses to do those things, and then complain about those things, just might strike them as stupid.

I try NOT to complain about my itchy make up, if it starts itching, I just glare and bear it :). But I love how I look in my makeup, I just accept the occasional itch.

Sometimes in certain wind conditions a long skirt acts like a friggin sail. I am not about to complain about that, cause my wearing it was my choice.

complaining about how women show no sympathy to what to them is a choice, is just barking up the wrong tree.

In my opinion that is.

[Karren H]

I don't have any sympathy for bitchy people either!! Don't like wearing abra then don't!! And since when does lake of sympathy equate to ruthlessness?

[Nicole Erin]

you know what, screw it, I was trying to have a bit of fun here.
Everyone can now tune back into their "I did something really stupid and got caught" threads.

[Kaz]

Thanks Miami Marie, that was really helpful.

It has put the world in it's place, and I am sure that this has been an important insight into this community...

[Pythos]

Miami marie, brought up some good points. However there is a flip side. Why do women put up with those expectations? Why do they strive for the attention of men that demand such things? Why don't women just dump the typical male that expects such things and go for the males that can truly sympathize at least with some of the things women go through....like us CDers :)

This is a two way street in many ways. Men need to stop expecting such things, and women need to let go of the typical male image as an attractant (I know, that does sound convoluted).

I for one will not expect my S.O. to wear makeup, or hose if she does not want to, conversely I don't want her shunning my wearing of those things.

It is when we silly expect things that causes much of the strife in our lives.

[Pythos]

Nicole. So sorry. I was a hypocrite. I did not fully read your post, and see that it was indeed just a joke. I fully appologize.

[MiamiMarie]

Miami marie, brought up some good points. However there is a flip side. Why do women put up with those expectations? Why do they strive for the attention of men that demand such things? Why don't women just dump the typical male that expects such things and go for the males that can truly sympathize at least with some of the things women go through....like us CDs

I wish I knew. I really wish I did. I think it might go beyond society. Maybe it's just how we're wired. I am a happy wife of a laid back CD who has low expectations of me, but I will always have unrealistic expectations for myself.

[docrobbysherry]

you know what, screw it, I was trying to have a bit of fun here.
Everyone can now tune back into their "I did something really stupid and got caught" threads.

U started a thot provoking thread. Which ISN'T that easy! Isn't THAT what u intended? I think some of the posts r interesting! ( Like the one below.) Altho I understand your frustration, also!:brolleyes:


I see.
So men are stupid and women are clever, right?

I KNOW your speaking tongue in cheek, Fluffy. But, maybe there's something to what u say!
That being the difference in the way the AVERAGE male and female address things!

Men r more like monkeys that reach into a coconut trap and try to pull out the fruit. They JUST WON'T LET GO and end up being caught.

Women r more like monkeys that size up the trap before blindly sticking their hand in. They MAY or may NOT figure out how to lift the coconut and drop the fruit out. And, they'd know enuff to drop the fruit rather be caught!

Arguments with my ex often turned into lectures! I left some of them believing black was actually WHITE! Wrong COULD be rite! And, acting stupid COULD be smart!:brolleyes:

When it comes to conversational skills, some women R quite clever!

[Lucy_Bella]

No women are not Ruthless ....They are upfront straight forward and direct /.. why waste time ? Because there is no sence in sweating the small stuff... Guys could learn alot from them..

[ReineD]

If you want to go full-time, don't expect sympathy from GG's.
I think maybe the reason they are more accepting is cause they secretly cherish the suffering a GM must endure to become a woman. :tongueout

You may have something there! :D

Seriously, they're probably just yanking your chain. Lots of GGs also hate wearing bras. The person who made the comment about enjoying it while it's there ... if you ever had a heart-to-heart with her, you don't think she'd understand?

Some women can be ruthless. So can some men. :straightface:

[audreyinalbany]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I appreciate having MiamiMarie's input. I think she is pretty much right on.

[Nicole Erin]

if you ever had a heart-to-heart with her, you don't think she'd understand?

I am not one in real life to sit down and discuss my feelings.

I keep forgetting that a lot of TG tend to lack a sense of humor and think everything is dead serious...
I am not, I am just as serious about my TS'ness as say Roseanne Arnold is about fitting into a size 4.
Yet the thing is, I make fun of MYSELF quite often. One of my better friends at school calls me a "Trahnny"

Why just the other day at school I was sniffing my own foot to see if they stank, and she was like, "That's gross, Erin" and I said in a drag queen voice - "Excuse me B****, but my Trahnny feet do not stink". :D

[Shananigans]

MiamiMarie hit it on the head with her first post as far as men being rough with males...

But, in general, I think that your friend was being a little tough love with you.

Kind of reminds me of my mom when I was younger. I was a little odd ball and she had to have a somewhat firm hand to get me to be a lady.

Please keep in mind, I hung around all guys growing up and just wanted to be one of the guys for a really long time (until I wanted to get in their pants and get out of the sister zone that I was stuck in).

So, once I showed interest in trying to attract boys and wanted to be more feminine...my mom had to crack the whip a little. The bra went on...the tennis shoes went away...the perfume went on... When I complained about not wanting to get up early to fix my hair or plan my outfits, my mom would just be like, "Well, you can look you best, or you can look like you just rolled out of bed. You're young so it you have the option...but, I don't think Justin wants to date Bedhead."

Sounds kinda like what your friend is doing. Effectively, "You want to be a woman, so start acting like it!" Tough love sorta thing.

I do it with some of my GG friends too...my best friend and I are very tough love about weight loss. We both want to get to a certain weight and will check in on each other's progress or call each other up when we are frustrated with it all.

It just takes a little tough love and we are both back on track again. "Do you want to be skinny? Or, do you want to look like that cupcake you are about to eat?"

Idk that's just more of what it sounds like to me.

[Satrana]

I keep forgetting that a lot of TG tend to lack a sense of humor and think everything is dead serious...
I don't think everyone gets sarcasm. I mean bra wearing = ruthless.....hello......

In fact anytime you bring out the male/female divide then out comes the victimhood mentality....Ohh woe is me, my life is so tough, its just not fair. Its like the Monty Python sketch "What did the Romans ever give us?" Quite a lot actually!

[ReineD]

I am just as serious about my TS'ness as say Roseanne Arnold is about fitting into a size 4.
Yet the thing is, I make fun of MYSELF quite often. One of my better friends at school calls me a "Trahnny"

Why just the other day at school I was sniffing my own foot to see if they stank, and she was like, "That's gross, Erin" and I said in a drag queen voice - "Excuse me B****, but my Trahnny feet do not stink". :D

That's why I like you so much! :D

[Rhonda Jean]

Why just the other day at school I was sniffing my own foot to see if they stank, and she was like, "That's gross, Erin" and I said in a drag queen voice - "Excuse me B****, but my Trahnny feet do not stink". :D

?????
Lost me on that one.

[mygirlsgirl]

Well, I have to agree with Miami Marie also on this one!

You know me and my SO have had these talks when it comes to things she wants me to do for her or to teach her, she has never shaved her body, she has done her own nails, but she wanted me to shave her and do her nails, she would make hints every so often, and if I didn't feel well enough I would sorta blow it off, yes, my bad, I know, I would never hurt her for anything, but I sorta have to be in the right frame of mind to do these things to myself and I have been doing them most of my life. I have never shaved or painted anyone else's fingernails, I have enough trouble doing my own, for one thing I'm blind as a bat!! lol I hate frikkin shaving myself (do it at least every other day), I hate painting my nails (I do my toes, but not my fingers), I hate putting make up on (wear just mascara and blush now), I hate wearing a bra (I have no boobs now so I don't were one), I hate plucking my eyebrows (I pay to have them waxed now).

My point here is that I hate to do these things to myself and I have to because I'm a girl, if I want an ioda of attention from the male species I have to, that is how we were all raised (male and female) it, also on the other side of the coin makes me feel better about myself as a woman. When I'm not feeling good I dress like a bag lady, it is not a pretty sight! lol

So, yesterday I decided was the day, we shaved her legs, chest and arm pits, then we did her toenails, I told her while I was shaving her I was sorry if I seemed quick and mechanical, I realized what I was doing and tried to slow down and be more gental so she would enjoy it, It is just so second nature to me I can do it with my eyes shut to myself, I tried to give her tips while we did it after I slowed down. I tried to make it an enjoyable experience for her, but me, I was on auto-pilot, then I had to go shave myself in the shower! lol

I do as little as I can get away with as a GG, but I try to look my best for myself and for her, like MM said we have high expectations of ourseleves it is ingrained in GGs, so I sometimes have trouble understanding why my SO would ever want to do these things to herself, it's so much frikkin work, but I also understand it is more work for her to do them than me, and I understand she has not had the opportunities that I have had as far as looking and feeling like a women, so we talk about it as we go, and I try to help where I can, she likes to be pampered too, so I have been trying to do more that way.

Sorry, if I got off topic and I'm so long winded.....just me today! hugs, mygirlsgirl:)

[Danni Bear]

Nicole,

You can't help yourself. It is what at times makes the day go better. Everybody needs that little emotional kick in the b***sometimes .

Danni

[PuniPuni]

We're actually talking about transgender issues in my diversity class on Thursday. I pretty much came out to the class last week. :P

My view on this is two fold.

1) There are in fact women who are insulted at the idea of men trying to "be" women. It's the same reaction that would accompany a woman trying to play golf in a men's league. Gender territory exists on both sides. Seeing a world dominated by men, women found some areas where they could be themselves. Seeing men trying to get into these areas is threatening. It could be especially irritating if the man then gets to turn around and "leave" that world whenever he wants. It would be extremely irritating to me as a disabled person to see someone spend one afternoon walking around with beer goggles on and claiming to know how hard it is. It's even worse when he turns around and takes the goggles off to go drive home. As transsexual or transgendered people, we do need to acknowledge this and hold our tongues until we're willing to "pass" full time.

2) Statistically speaking, mtf transsexuals do face greater dangers in this world, and it is more difficult to make that transition. Women do need to acknowledge that, for example, men have hairy chests and beards that take more time to cover up. However, ftm men may not face this as much since most non-transgendered men shave their beards these days anyway. Most women will tell you longer hairstyles are much harder to maintain. Ftm men get the luxury of having short hair that can be drip-dried and combed in about 15 minutes. There is more freedom for women to wear men's fashions than there is for men to wear women's fashions. And also, our personal feelings are denied because of our privilege as men. Being denied our real feelings is painful regardless of sex or ethnicity. As I told my therapist, the fact that I am a White man living in this world of misogamy and White privilege doesn't mean that my pain is less real to me. For a woman to stand against my transition is just painful because what I'm doing is hard and I do need support.

At the end of the day though, I think women just mean well. They want to vent their frustrations, and whether they realize it or not they help prepare us for the world we're entering. Definitely for the White men on this board, we aren't used to being discriminated against. For us, taking on that new stress makes it particularly hard. But even women don't know the distinct world the transsexual or transgendered person lives in. We face our own obstacles. Within our own community, the different experiences of the mtf, the ftm, the androgynous, and so on have to be acknowledged as separate experiences and equally meaningful to the persons experiencing them.

Since men are in the dominant position, it also means we are looked at far more by everyone else. For all the discrimination and victimization that is very real for women, things that happen to them every day, there is some shelter in the fact that, as an oppressed group, they can hide more easily than men. Since men are in power, our every move is scrutinized both by those groups we oppress seeking to emulate us or find any reason to bring us down to their level and by other men who seek to preserve their power by tossing out anyone that deviates from their norm.

Women have places to go where they can hide. Men have more places to go where they can hide, but in my own personal experience, the places men go to hide are much more familiar to women than vise-verse. Most women, if you ask them, can tell you the intricate details of proper behavior in a men's room. Most men have no idea what the proper behavior is in a women's room. Where transgendered people fit in all of this has really yet to be determined, and so far neither side has really made efforts to recognize that.

All that being said, most women think it's cool that I shave my legs. b(^_^)d

[Annaliese2010]

:battingeyelashes:
They seem to have no sympathy for a bitching TS...don't expect sympathy from GG's... :tongueoutWell...also don't expect sympathy from a GG even if you're not TS because:


Even if you live to please em, on your knees to beg & tease em...
Throw 60 thou around - Still she'll steal your crown
Give her gifts, all your attention - How can you not, she's your redemption!
Yet in the end my TS friend - she'll turn you into one of them!
Hello! My name is Annaliese, pass the kleenex if you please
Boo hoo... Ouch... I got too loose
Now I'll never sip her treasure - Her life giving juice

GG's inflict the worst pain ever
Won't go away - can hurt forever
No exagerration - no fancy fabrication
You KNOW what I mean - ain't no lie!
All that power 'tween their thighs
When it's about romance - no man stands a chance
Cut to the chase - accept disgrace!
Just give her what she wants!!! Every thing you got
Oh my! But then... In over you're head!

Now you've DONE IT - you're invested!
Your dreams she'll rake - So high the stakes
Safer just to join their ranks!
Please excuse my bitch - wish I had bigger tits!
No longer a "guy" but never will I
Give up what lies between these lezzy thighs!
M2F girl with something more - Now GG's banging at my door
Sometimes you have to compromise

So THERE! Lol... ;)


[Copyright 10/26/10 Annaliese Winters]