Fascinated a Little Boy this Sunday

[Jamie001]

I went into Payless Shoes this Sunday to purchase a few pair of shoes. I entered and headed for the Women's Size 11 aisle. I am always dressed in drab with the exception of a fem hair style, and capri pants. It is important to mentioned that on the other side of the aisle are the men's (boring) shoes. I had just gotten a pedicure on Thursday and my toenails were perfectly pedicured and polished in a very sassy bright red. I entered the store wearing women's sandals with a 3 inch heel. As I was trying on shoes, a Hispanic man and his little boy came down the aisle and the man sat down and began trying on shoes. The boy was about 10 years old and was wearing a baseball uniform. The man started trying on men's shoes and I was about 3 feet away trying on women's sandals. The boy just stood there in amazement or maybe it was shock and watched me try on the sandals. I wish I could have know what he was thinking because he was so fixated on my feet as I tried on women's heels. Since he was so fascinated, I played it up a little and modeled the shoes before the mirror, posing my foot in different positions and wiggling my polished toes. The boy was almost in a trance, and it was almost surreal.:eek: The boy's father found a pair of shoes and started to leave calling the little boy who was still fixated on my feet. I really wonder how this experience will influence him. Maybe he really wants to wear women's shoes and to have painted toenails. I will never know, but at least I believe that I expanded his horizons today by showing him that it is possible to to have feminine feet and to wear womens shoes proudly. Maybe one day he will become one of us. :D

[KatGRL774]

I wouldn't wish this curse on anyone. Did you ever stop to think you may have CORRUPTED the poor little guy? Fine if you want to mess with adult's heads, but the kids should be left alone... based on your post - it looks like you're almost proud to "bring someone over to the dark side". I'm sorry but your post sickens me.

[TiffanyTgirl]

Kids should be left out. If I am at payless, I make sure there are no families or kids around when I try on shoes. I don't want to be a cause for parents having to explain or influeincing anyone. My 2 cents

[maya1love]

Hey guys -- I wasn't expecting such a harsh response to Jamie001's post. I don't believe at all that Jamie being herself trying on shoes "corrupted" that boy. What nonsense! Does this mean that we as transgendered people should not dress and go to stores in the daytime where there are children around? I wonder if this is the same mentality as saying that gay men or gay women shouldn't hold hands with each other in front of kids. No -- parents have to explain to kids that transgender (and gay) people exist. Now, the only thing that you can fault Jamie on is that she said that she was "playing up to that boy" when she was trying on the shoes. I think that children should not be "played up to". However, had she been completely minding her own business trying on shoes in a store where there happened to be a child, I don't think we could blame her for anything. I wonder if the two posters above really believe that you can "catch" transgenderism by some childhood experience. Personally, I don't think so. Also, to say that being transgendered is a "curse" is a point of view I do not share.

[Lora Olivia]

I am sorry but capri's, 3 inch heels and painted toes are not drab. As for anything else, I prefer to fly under the radar so to speak, but to each their own. I can almost hear the boy and dad's conversation upon leaving the store...something along the lines of the boy asking and dad making derogatory remarks about the "insert expletive about gender or sexual preference"

[SheriM]

I don't mind if another woman is in the shoe isle with me, no I actually like it, but if there are kids or teens around, I wait till they leave to try on shoes or hit the door.
SheriM

[corynn]

Hey guys -- I wasn't expecting such a harsh response to Jamie001's post. I don't believe at all that Jamie being herself trying on shoes "corrupted" that boy. What nonsense! Does this mean that we as transgendered people should not dress and go to stores in the daytime where there are children around? I wonder if this is the same mentality as saying that gay men or gay women shouldn't hold hands with each other in front of kids. No -- parents have to explain to kids that transgender (and gay) people exist. Now, the only thing that you can fault Jamie on is that she said that she was "playing up to that boy" when she was trying on the shoes. I think that children should not be "played up to". However, had she been completely minding her own business trying on shoes in a store where there happened to be a child, I don't think we could blame her for anything. I wonder if the two posters above really believe that you can "catch" transgenderism by some childhood experience. Personally, I don't think so. Also, to say that being transgendered is a "curse" is a point of view I do not share.


I happen to Agree
with maya come on people stop judging other CD'S when we ourselves are judged Enough

Enough is Enough ok yea so Jamie should not have been showing off for a child. but what maya said is true! if children of today go through life knowing only one way
THEY WILL BE CLOSED MINDED LIKE THE REST OF SOCIETY !!!!!!!!

after all if people on here are gonna judge!!! It flippen SHAMES ME BEING A PART OF A SISTERHOOD THAT JUDGES EACH OTHER

[DonnaT]

I imagine the kid was infatuated with the red nails, or a combination of nails and heels. I doubt he knew or even thought about Jamie's gender presentation, unless Jamie has facial hair.

[Loni]

I wouldn't wish this curse on anyone. Did you ever stop to think you may have CORRUPTED the poor little guy? Fine if you want to mess with adult's heads, but the kids should be left alone... based on your post - it looks like you're almost proud to "bring someone over to the dark side". I'm sorry but your post sickens me.

i call this person a TROLL.
even walking down the street one will see much worse than this, i also do try to stay away from "kids" but kids will be kids and be underfoot in all places. this little boy will see much in his life and i DO NOT call cross dressing a curse. or "the dark side"
you do not belong on this sight, and should be baned.

this way you do not have to get sick reading others postings.

Loni

.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Ughh. This is all so pathetic in many ways. This forum is supposed to be about acceptance and support, but once again those who can't accept this thing that we are, shoot from the hip because they can't see beyond what they feel about themselves.
I have a 10 yr old Godson who was born to a lesbian woman through a sperm donor and knows everything about both his mother's sexual orientation and how he was conceived.
He is PERFECTLY fine with it all and is going to be a model citizen because of it. In fact we can all only hope that more children like him become the future of our society.

Granted there are some very bad things being done to children, perpetrated by some very sick people, so i can understand that we can get very worked up by situations dealing with our youngsters. But please folks, to jump to the conclusion that this child has been corrupted or influenced is just so wrong!

I'll concede that the OPs description pushed the boundaries somewhat, but let's say for argument's sake that she went about trying on the shoes, and admiring them on her feet without any thought to the child? Is this still as awful as you KatGRL744 and Tiffany are assuming? To jump to the conclusion that any child can be corrupted or influenced is both unknown and more likely totally false. Certainly not worth throwing about words like "sickening" or "curse".

We should be hopefull that we can educate society while out in it, but looking around corners and trying to hide from children and families is not the way.

That said Jaimie, adding a smilie to the end of your thread and making it look like you hope "he will one day be one of us" is a boundary you should not have crossed, IMHO.

Sorry for the winded response but i have another quick story as it relates. I went into my local tanning parlor awhile back, drab, in shorts and sandals with my newly painted pink toes on display. At the counter was a woman with two children approx. 5 and 6 yrs old at her feet. I took a seat to wait my turn, crossed my legs and grabbed a magazine. I saw the 2 kids walk a few steps toward me and begin staring at my feet. You could tell that children at that age have learned the things that make men and women different in appearance and dress. They kept looking and then turning towards their mother and i was waiting for the questions to come, "mommy this man has toes like yours!". In all honesty i wished it wouldn't happen, but niether was i going to go hide outside. I knew the thing to do if asked was to simply say "yes, i like them this way" and smile, then turn my head back to the magazine.

It is when we act ashamed that we give society reason to treat us poorly.
mj (Cassie)

[JohnH]

I wouldn't wish this curse on anyone. Did you ever stop to think you may have CORRUPTED the poor little guy? Fine if you want to mess with adult's heads, but the kids should be left alone... based on your post - it looks like you're almost proud to "bring someone over to the dark side". I'm sorry but your post sickens me.
No, it is society that is CORRUPTED with the extremely narrow constraints of acceptable attire placed on men. It is obvious there is a lot of emotional baggage members of this community have for simply wanting to go outside the constraints of acceptable attire for men.

Look around - why is the Male-to-Female Crossdressing section have over 20 times the threads and postings as compared to the Transmasculine section?

If I were to go shopping for women's shoes I would wear a skirt and sandals. I have my toenails painted dark gray, black, or dark blue.

Kind regards,

John

[kym]

Ughh. This is all so pathetic in many ways. This forum is supposed to be about acceptance and support, but once again those who can't accept this thing that we are, shoot from the hip because they can't see beyond what they feel about themselves.
I have a 10 yr old Godson who was born to a lesbian woman through a sperm donor and knows everything about both his mother's sexual orientation and how he was conceived.
He is PERFECTLY fine with it all and is going to be a model citizen because of it. In fact we can all only hope that more children like him become the future of our society.

Granted there are some very bad things being done to children, perpetrated by some very sick people, so i can understand that we can get very worked up by situations dealing with our youngsters. But please folks, to jump to the conclusion that this child has been corrupted or influenced is just so wrong!

I'll concede that the OPs description pushed the boundaries somewhat, but let's say for argument's sake that she went about trying on the shoes, and admiring them on her feet without any thought to the child? Is this still as awful as you KatGRL744 and Tiffany are assuming? To jump to the conclusion that any child can be corrupted or influenced is both unknown and more likely totally false. Certainly not worth throwing about words like "sickening" or "curse".

We should be hopefull that we can educate society while out in it, but looking around corners and trying to hide from children and families is not the way.

That said Jaimie, adding a smilie to the end of your thread and making it look like you hope "he will one day be one of us" is a boundary you should not have crossed, IMHO.

Sorry for the winded response but i have another quick story as it relates. I went into my local tanning parlor awhile back, drab, in shorts and sandals with my newly painted pink toes on display. At the counter was a woman with two children approx. 5 and 6 yrs old at her feet. I took a seat to wait my turn, crossed my legs and grabbed a magazine. I saw the 2 kids walk a few steps toward me and begin staring at my feet. You could tell that children at that age have learned the things that make men and women different in appearance and dress. They kept looking and then turning towards their mother and i was waiting for the questions to come, "mommy this man has toes like yours!". In all honesty i wished it wouldn't happen, but niether was i going to go hide outside. I knew the thing to do if asked was to simply say "yes, i like them this way" and smile, then turn my head back to the magazine.

It is when we act ashamed that we give society reason to treat us poorly.
mj (Cassie)

good point cassie. one question to everyone though: why should we as a community and as humans be ashamed of what we are? Society says we as men have to wear certain things that look certain ways and we are strong enough in ourselves to challenge society's narrow minded vison as to which clothes define the sexes, we should be proud of who we are.

[Jennifer Girl]

I wouldn't wish this curse on anyone. Did you ever stop to think you may have CORRUPTED the poor little guy? Fine if you want to mess with adult's heads, but the kids should be left alone... based on your post - it looks like you're almost proud to "bring someone over to the dark side". I'm sorry but your post sickens me.

Well, in that case all I have to say is thank god that boy doesn't live in my neighborhood, because he would never be able to leave the house without seeing a CD or two (or three, or four...) :)

As for the "corrupted" concept, I firmly believe that I was born with this desire to dress like a girl, and nobody or no thing or no instance "corrupted" me. Maybe that's just me, but that is what I know based upon my personal experience. Heck, my parents tried to "un-corrupt" me for YEARS, and it didn't work. So how can seeing a CD for a few minutes in a shoe store ruin a boy's life by "bringing him to the dark side"? (I'm picturing a crossdressing Darth Vader at this point.)

[Gerrijerry]

This all just made me realize why I am the way I am. When I was just a small child I must have seen a TS woman and caught it. So when I grew to an adult I could do nothing more then become full time and live as a woman. Yes that must be it. I caught something from some TS woman. Help me find a cure (tears) LOL. Hey wake up this is a support forum. We help each other.

[Jamie001]

I believe that John is right. We need to stop being ashamed of who we are and start being proud! If there had been a woman in the store buying mens rugged boots and wearing a flannel shirt and baseball cap, no one cares. We need to be brave and show the public that we are proud of who we are and stop believing that we are some type of abberation. What do we do about people that are covered in tattoos? Should they be not allowed to expose them? If they have tats on the face, should the face be covered? We need to be proud of who and what we are.



No, it is society that is CORRUPTED with the extremely narrow constraints of acceptable attire placed on men. It is obvious there is a lot of emotional baggage members of this community have for simply wanting to go outside the constraints of acceptable attire for men.

Look around - why is the Male-to-Female Crossdressing section have over 20 times the threads and postings as compared to the Transmasculine section?

If I were to go shopping for women's shoes I would wear a skirt and sandals. I have my toenails painted dark gray, black, or dark blue.

Kind regards,

John

[JohnH]

As for the "corrupted" concept, I firmly believe that I was born with this desire to dress like a girl, and nobody or no thing or no instance "corrupted" me. Maybe that's just me, but that is what I know based upon my personal experience. Heck, my parents tried to "un-corrupt" me for YEARS, and it didn't work. So how can seeing a CD for a few minutes in a shoe store ruin a boy's life by "bringing him to the dark side"? (I'm picturing a crossdressing Darth Vader at this point.)

There are plenty of little girls that have the desire to dress like a boy, and no one has any issues with that. So why is it such an issue for a boy to want to dress like a girl?


I believe that John is right. We need to stop being ashamed of who we are and start being proud! If there had been a woman in the store buying mens rugged boots and wearing a flannel shirt and baseball cap, no one cares. We need to be brave and show the public that we are proud of who we are and stop believing that we are some type of abberation. What do we do about people that are covered in tattoos? Should they be not allowed to expose them? If they have tats on the face, should the face be covered? We need to be proud of who and what we are.

Just as a woman can go to a store wearing a flannel shirt and a baseball cap I as a MAN can wear my skirts and dresses publicly. It's not my style to use a feminine name or feminine pronouns.

[michelle64]

i am in the camp of bad practice..not a good idea to do this....for this reason i shop fully enfemme anymore to avoid this type of problem....sorry..i just belive this is not good practice and gives us all a bad rap..jus my take

[JohnH]

i am in the camp of bad practice..not a good idea to do this....for this reason i shop fully enfemme anymore to avoid this type of problem....sorry..i just belive this is not good practice and gives us all a bad rap..jus my take

Why should I have to disguise the fact that I am a man when I wear a skirt or a dress when a woman does not have to disguise herself when she wears a flannel shirt, jeans, and a baseball cap?

There was a time when women could not wear pants as women - about 100 years ago. In fact, a woman could have been arrested for wearing pants back then.

There was a time such as the 1950's when men had to have short hair and could not wear necklaces, bracelets, or earrings. At least now it is legal for men to wear skirts and dresses. The social freedom for men to wear skirts and dresses will not come about until men start exercising those options.

[Loni]

well i guess KaTGRL774 and michelle64 will not like me, as i rarely have mens clothing on, even when going out as a guy. all of my jeans are woman's jeans, and my T-shirts are from the woman's dept. nothing sexy or feminine about them, other than made with a finer grade of thread, and fancy rear pockets. simple shoes. (not showing my painted toes) but i do have clear over a shear pink on my fingers. nothing ever said about the color even tho it is a very light one. looks natural but shinny.

maybe as a little boy my mom should not have taken me shopping with her ( i liked it) she should have just dumped me in the back yard on a chain and made me play with toy trucks??

to me dressing is not a curse, (well maybe to my wallet) but it is something i enjoy. even now i am getting ready to go shopping, yes in a skirt. after i have a class at a local collage, and the instructor only knows me as Loni. (yes she knows i am a male in a skirt).

if just seeing someone with painted toes makes them derange, then that boy has much worse problems. as i doubt it would turn him into a cross dresser or a transsexual.

but if this is the dark side...i am loving it and keep the lights turned off please.


.

[JulieC]

Uhg. You know what? this thread sickens me.

Good grief. Shopping for women's shoes isn't illegal. If some kid sees you, so what? Must conform to go fully en femme or don't shop for shoes partially en femme? Must not go in when family and kids are there? Gah.

I really feel that the people on this forum are sometimes their own worst enemies. WE ARE NOT MONSTERS!!!!!! We're just PEOPLE.

[KatGRL774]

Wow..

Well, I'm not at all surprised at the reaction I got - which just goes to show the depravity of some folks. I AM a crossdresser, you can't put me in the basket of people who don't know how it is. I've walked a mile in your high heels.. so my viewpoint is just as valid - I am not a TROLL as some have said.

Oh btw, before I continue.. I predict this thread will be locked before the day is out.

The point I was making - and apparently few caught it - was that young minds are impressionable. (and I was a little boy, and YES, TV shows, people out in public, media influence - THEY MAKE AN IMPACT! I can remember thinking about some of the transgender Springer shows for days after I saw some of them.. my mind rewinding back to some of the images of passable CD's for years to come)

If you look like a man, and are flaunting the notion of crossdressing to young people - you're sick. Plain and simple. Get a life, and stop forcing your viewpoints on the young. I bet it left a lasting impression (probably a disturbing one) for quite some time. Please people - this isn't rocket science! Young people have a hard enough time trying to sort things out growing up without that kind of a monkey wrench thrown at them so early on.

All I'm saying is, leave the poor kids out of it. If you pass as a woman, and nobody notices you - good for you. But please don't disturb the minds of the youth. This is coming from someone who was disturbed as a young man. It can and does happen.

The very fact that this person was enjoying the "show" they were putting on is disgusting. I don't know how any sane person here thinks this was okay. Like I said, fine if you want to flaunt it in front of well-adjusted adults who have already formed a stable mind and psyche, but these are kids. They're defenseless. And yes, I am a father of a 3 year old boy. I take pride in telling you (I can hear the flames already...) that I will not purposely give him any clue that his father has ever worn anything but male attire.

Seriously people - grow up and quit being selfish about this. "Well I wannt be accepted..." fine.. but leave the kids out of it.

[Rhonda Jean]

Playing up to the kid was wrong on a lot of levels. I try to avoid kids. I don't want to be anyone's teaching moment. It's usually not too hard to avoid them. Could have easily been avoided at Payless. Getting your nails done or your hair done you can be trapped. Been there, done that, many times. It's a spoiler for me. It's worse that often at these places I'm not completely enfemme. I prefer to get my hair and nails done while the kids are in school, but there's always the preschoolers. Not a good deal.

I'm also quite aware of all the nature/nurture type arguments, but I think it's naive to think you have no impact or influence. Whether or not that's bad would be a raging debate, but it'd be hard to argue that your appearance can't spark some interest in a child. I know my nephew (30 years ago) went through a phase of periodically rolling his hair (Actually his mom rolled it for him). I don't know that he did it only because I did, but I know he was emboldened by the fact that I did.

Usually these teaching moments take place out of earshot. I can think of a few times when the inevitable questions came up at the hair or nail salon (Particularly hair salons. More kids there.) and I got to hear how it played out. Typically just makes me want to crawl in a hole, regardless of the level of sensitivity in the explanation.

[KatGRL774]

Rhonda - well said! Thanks, you put it a lot nicer then myself - but honestly the whole thread and it's responses has really angered me. First, that this happened, and second, that many of the responses are selfish "I want acceptance, not ridicule" posts. In the context of children, this is absolutely ridiculous. It's indoctrination, it's corruption of pure minds. I'm sure many will argue, but it's true.. speaking from experience.

[JohnH]

Wow..

Well, I'm not at all surprised at the reaction I got - which just goes to show the depravity of some folks. I AM a crossdresser, you can't put me in the basket of people who don't know how it is. I've walked a mile in your high heels.. so my viewpoint is just as valid - I am not a TROLL as some have said.

Oh btw, before I continue.. I predict this thread will be locked before the day is out.

The point I was making - and apparently few caught it - was that young minds are impressionable. (and I was a little boy, and YES, TV shows, people out in public, media influence - THEY MAKE AN IMPACT! I can remember thinking about some of the transgender Springer shows for days after I saw some of them.. my mind rewinding back to some of the images of passable CD's for years to come)

If you look like a man, and are flaunting the notion of crossdressing to young people - you're sick. Plain and simple. Get a life, and stop forcing your viewpoints on the young. I bet it left a lasting impression (probably a disturbing one) for quite some time. Please people - this isn't rocket science! Young people have a hard enough time trying to sort things out growing up without that kind of a monkey wrench thrown at them so early on.

All I'm saying is, leave the poor kids out of it. If you pass as a woman, and nobody notices you - good for you. But please don't disturb the minds of the youth. This is coming from someone who was disturbed as a young man. It can and does happen.

The very fact that this person was enjoying the "show" they were putting on is disgusting. I don't know how any sane person here thinks this was okay. Like I said, fine if you want to flaunt it in front of well-adjusted adults who have already formed a stable mind and psyche, but these are kids. They're defenseless. And yes, I am a father of a 3 year old boy. I take pride in telling you (I can hear the flames already...) that I will not purposely give him any clue that his father has ever worn anything but male attire.

Seriously people - grow up and quit being selfish about this. "Well I wannt be accepted..." fine.. but leave the kids out of it.

You are really making a mountain out of a molehill.

I guess if a woman dresses with the proverbial flannel shirt, jeans, and baseball cap she is infecting the minds of young girls who might want to crossdress as boys.

Think of the violence that is shown in the entertainment media. Nobody seems to worry about young impressionable minds being corrupted by the violence.

How about unfaithfullness shown on television? Again, no one seems to worry about how young minds can be infected.

What I'm saying is if men wearing femme attire was just as acceptable as women wearing drab attire this masculine-to-feminine crossdressing section would be much smaller.

My wish for this forum is that the participants would assume masculine names and use masculine pronouns and references. I would like to see the situation when MEN AS MEN can discuss their freestyling fashions that are outside the boundaries of conventional male attire.
I like that most of you put on makeup, etc to enhance your appearance. Those items should be considered OK for men.

Of course I am dreaming...


It's indoctrination, it's corruption of pure minds. I'm sure many will argue, but it's true.. speaking from experience.

We are born in a state of corruption. There is no such thing as a pure mind on this earth.

Kind regards,

John

[Engendered]

I'm asking for this thread not to be locked. :)

[Amanda22]

It's odd how different readers get different meanings from the description of the original event. When I read the original post, I understood it as Jamie minding her own business in the store, along comes a curious, staring child, and Jamie doesn't go running to another aisle. I didn't pick up on the "playing it up" aspect until others mentioned it. It's really hard to know what happened and my approach is to think the best of others.

[JohnH]

I'm asking for this thread not to be locked. :)

If this thread is locked we can create another thread and continue our discussion.

[suchacutie]

Hmmm, might I mention that the father could not have been completely oblivious. If he was upset about what his son was watching he could have taken care of it easily. From the description of the event, this did not happen. Might we not step back from this a minute? Do we really know who is watching when we try on shoes at Payless, or walk down the street, for that matter? Consider that we have a young boy, likely completely bored, suddenly seeing something interesting in front of him. Wouldn't you expect him to watch? If he was under 5 years old, I'm sure that he will not remember the incident when he becomes older. After all, how much of our youth do we remember in detail?

Androgynous or mixed-gender individuals are everywhere. I imagine that this encounter was only interesting from the point of view of the adults.

tina

[Holly]

Well, I agree with KatGRL774. Young minds can certainly be impressionable. What kind of impression would be left had Jamie become all flustered and nervous about being seen and had scampered off back into the darkness? That being different is wrong? Any form of femininity in a male is shameful? Should the event been played up by Jamie? No, certainly not. But going out of our way to avoid any segment of the population is worse. The conversation between the father and his son after they left the store could have just as well been a positive moment when dad could have explained that the different people in the world all contribute to our experience in life and that being confident in yourself, no matter who you are, is always a positive thing in your own life.

[KatGRL774]

Amanda - What do the following lines suggest to you??

"Since he was so fascinated, I played it up a little and modeled the shoes before the mirror, posing my foot in different positions and wiggling my polished toes. The boy was almost in a trance, and it was almost surreal."

This is what our poster wrote. I think in a court of law this would be damning evidence that the child's emotions were being messed with, and intentionally.

Not cool. As for what someone posted about the child's father - ignorance on his part is not a license to be ignorant as well. He either didn't care, or didn't notice. Either way, not the greatest show of parenting skills.

[JohnH]

Amanda - What do the following lines suggest to you??

"Since he was so fascinated, I played it up a little and modeled the shoes before the mirror, posing my foot in different positions and wiggling my polished toes. The boy was almost in a trance, and it was almost surreal."

.

If I were trying on the shoes I would not play it up to the little boy. I would turn my back to the boy and away from the mirror. And above all, I would not post this topic on this forum. I say there is a little corruption in the boy's mind imposed by society - otherwise, why would he be in a trance?

One has to live with the aberrations of society.

So KatGRL, regretfully I have to see your point to a certain degree. However, please be aware there are other sources of corruption that are worse than this example.

[Jenny Doolittle]

I just got tired of all this back and forth

[KatGRL774]

JonhH -

Just because there is corruption in the world, that doesn't give anyone a license to perpetuate it.

"One has to live with the abherrations of society" - you said this.. and this is true, but does this mean we should throw caution to the wind and just behave like people with no self control?

I see no defense for this kind of behavior.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

The point I was making - and apparently few caught it - was that young minds are impressionable. (and I was a little boy, and YES, TV shows, people out in public, media influence - THEY MAKE AN IMPACT!

They're not THAT impressionable. Little kids are not programmable machines. Even when young they have their own ideas, likes and dislikes.


I can remember thinking about some of the transgender Springer shows for days after I saw some of them.. my mind rewinding back to some of the images of passable CD's for years to come)

And that was a bad thing? I think not.


If you look like a man, and are flaunting the notion of crossdressing to young people - you're sick. Plain and simple. Get a life, and stop forcing your viewpoints on the young. I bet it left a lasting impression (probably a disturbing one) for quite some time.

Oh, so you're one of THOSE, a self hating transperson. You forget that for many of us, we already WERE crossdressers when we were young. And how is seeing a transperson openly shopping "forcing" anything.


But please don't disturb the minds of the youth.

Kids aren't that fragile, that seeing a transperson or say a handsome butchy woman would scar them for life.


This is coming from someone who was disturbed as a young man. It can and does happen.

Dont extrapolate your individual experience to others.


Like I said, fine if you want to flaunt it in front of well-adjusted adults who have already formed a stable mind and psyche, but these are kids. They're defenseless.

Why do you have such a low opinion of children's capacities to understand things. The funny thing is, the first time I ever talked about "This Thing of Ours of Varying Kinds" with a professional, there were kids in the waiting room.


I take pride in telling you (I can hear the flames already...) that I will not purposely give him any clue that his father has ever worn anything but male attire.

Why? It's a normal thing you do. Why not teach him that there are people who do it, and that there's nothing wrong with it so he grows up more tolerant of things when he grows up.

Veronica

[JohnH]

If I were trying on the shoes I would not play it up to the little boy. I would turn my back to the boy and away from the mirror. And above all, I would not post this topic on this forum. I say there is a little corruption in the boy's mind imposed by society - otherwise, why would he be in a trance?

One has to live with the aberrations of society.

So KatGRL, regretfully I have to see your point to a certain degree. However, please be aware there are other sources of corruption that are worse than this example.


JonhH -

Just because there is corruption in the world, that doesn't give anyone a license to perpetuate it.

"One has to live with the abherrations of society" - you said this.. and this is true, but does this mean we should throw caution to the wind and just behave like people with no self control?

I see no defense for this kind of behavior.

KatGRL, I think I made it abundantly clear I would have handled things a bit differently. As I said I would have turned my back to the boy away from the mirror, and ABOVE ALL, I would not have posted this topic.

John

[KatGRL774]

Veronica -

Thanks for that insightful look into the mind of a child, and I think you're completely wrong. I don't hate myself either, but I know what's realistic and trying to publicly be something I'm not doesn't make a damned bit of sense.

Some of you are seriously deluded.

JohnH -

Yeah, you said how you would have handled it. But the overwhelming majority of your words on that very same post were chock full of justifications for "corruption" in the world. You didn't really adress that part of it.. just stated what YOU would do. And that's great - I just wish others shared your view - but sadly most have an attitude of "do whatever pleases me and the rest can just adjust" attitude.

Don't you think I wouldn't love to just wear a dress all day? Sure.. I'd love it.. I'd also like to sit around and eat ice cream all day..

[sissystephanie]

There is one very important point that no one has made yet! Especially those of you who are talking about the young boy being corrupted

Jamie was wearing capris and had long feminine styled hair. He also had bright red toe nails and was trying on ladies sandals!! The boy was Hispanic, and probably had not seen bright red toe nails before. He may not have even realized that Jamie was really a man, especially since he was staring at the red toes!! Did anyone even slightly consider that possible fact?? I seriously doubt it!!

That makes what Kat said way out of line! He/She is entitled to her own opinion, but in this case it would be better unpublished, since it was obviously not well thought out!! The opinion was well stated, but certainly with a lot of anger! A thorough reading of the OP should have given Kat second thoughts!! Even though Jamie kind of played to the boy's looks, he never said he was a man!! Unless he had facial hair, or a totally masculine look, who knew what he was? I have seen a lot of GG's who could easily pass for men!!

[JohnH]

Don't you think I wouldn't love to just wear a dress all day? Sure.. I'd love it.. I'd also like to sit around and eat ice cream all day..

What's the harm? There are some Saturdays and Sundays that I do just that other than when I go to church. I'm not getting fat or harming my health by doing so. And by the way, my wife never wears dresses or skirts - only pants, shorts, and for sleepwear, nightgowns. She even goes for walks with me while she is wearing pants and I am wearing a dress.

[Amanda22]

Snore...

[Mistybtm]

You should not have to hide who you are i see nothing wrong here.

[Vickie_CDTV]

The whole argument is probably moot. If the little boy does grow up to have an interest in wearing womens' shoes, chances are the seed was already planted (by nature or nurture) long before he saw the OP trying on heels. If the boy grows up to wear womens' shoes, it won't be the OP's fault this happened.

However, for the boy's long term well being, I hope he doesn't. Even a casual fetish for wearing womens' shoes can cause serious problems; the guilt and shame thing, the hiding, relationship problems with women over it, etc. etc., the problems we often see posted here by crossdressers.

[DonnaT]

There is one very important point that no one has made yet!

Jamie was wearing capris and had long feminine styled hair. He also had bright red toe nails and was trying on ladies sandals!! The boy was Hispanic, and probably had not seen bright red toe nails before. He may not have even realized that Jamie was really a man, especially since he was staring at the red toes!! Did anyone even slightly consider that possible fact?? I seriously doubt it!!

:) see post #8 ;)

[JohnH]

The whole argument is probably moot. If the little boy does grow up to have an interest in wearing womens' shoes, chances are the seed was already planted (by nature or nurture) long before he saw the OP trying on heels. If the boy grows up to wear womens' shoes, it won't be the OP's fault this happened.

However, for the boy's long term well being, I hope he doesn't. Even a casual fetish for wearing womens' shoes can cause serious problems; the guilt and shame thing, the hiding, relationship problems with women over it, etc. etc., the problems we often see posted here by crossdressers.

Let's see - a century ago it was illegal for women to wear pants and those that did so were considered insane. I can see it - the fear of a young girl of having a fetish for men's shoes and pants, the guilt and shame thing, the hiding, relationship problems with men, etc.

Instead of keeping this cross-dressing thing a secret and a shameful thing to do maybe it is time for MEN to exercise the right to wear all clothing, including feminine clothing and makeup openly the same way as WOMEN exercise the right to wear all clothing, including masculine clothing. Fortunately the laws of the land permit men to do just that. Now it is time for MEN to expand their options!

That way there would be no issues with a man wearing a dress with heels and makeup anymore than a woman wearing a baseball cap, flannel shirt, jeans, and hiking boots.

I wear my skirts and dresses, and sometimes, heels as a MAN. That is the reason why I use my masculine name.

Kind regards,

John

[KatGRL774]

I think it's time for me to take a trip back to planet earth. I don't know what planet I'm actually on, but it's not earth, and all of you who think men dressed as women is completely normal and natural have forgotten what's good about the differences between men and women. There are differences. Embrace them instead of trying to level the playing field.

Vickie, the whole subject, content and message delivered by the poster was one of excitement and pride over possibly inluencing a young boy. End of story.

I'm outtahere.. I'm sure my words haven't changed anyone's mind, but they have reaffirmed my own standing on the issues.

[JohnH]

I think it's time for me to take a trip back to planet earth. I don't know what planet I'm actually on, but it's not earth, and all of you who think men dressed as women is completely normal and natural have forgotten what's good about the differences between men and women. There are differences. Embrace them instead of trying to level the playing field.

Vickie, the whole subject, content and message delivered by the poster was one of excitement and pride over possibly inluencing a young boy. End of story.

I'm outtahere.. I'm sure my words haven't changed anyone's mind, but they have reaffirmed my own standing on the issues.

I don't mean to criticize anyone else, but you do use a feminine name instead of a masculine name even though I guess you are a man and not a GG.

John

[KatGRL774]

John, regarding my name - good point! It was never something I really wanted to do, but I was convinced some years ago to do that. I don't go by Kat anywhere except here. Honestly, you could call me Joe or Bob.. heck I don't care.

As for the pants and whatnot, double standard..

Deny this, and I'll grant you have something on that line of thinking...

What normal woman do you see padding her crotch, or growing leg hair, or wearing fake facial hair, or making physical unnatural modifications to their body to appear male?? Yet the majority of male crossdressers are trying to pass as female. wigs, fake nails, eyelashes, makeup, you name it - and all in efforts to appear female. A woman in a pair of shorts or sweatpants can still look very feminine and beautiful. What male CD's do is false advertising. They try to speak differently, walk differently, they pad their hips and breasts.. Come on.. there's no comparison.

You see my point?

[PetiteDuality]

There is one very important point that no one has made yet!

Jamie was wearing capris and had long feminine styled hair. He also had bright red toe nails and was trying on ladies sandals!! The boy was Hispanic, and probably had not seen bright red toe nails before. He may not have even realized that Jamie was really a man, especially since he was staring at the red toes!! Did anyone even slightly consider that possible fact?? I seriously doubt it!!


I really don't understand what has to do him being Hispanic with him not having seen before bright red toe nails. Could you please explain? Is it that Hispanic woman use more conservative colors? Or that the wonders of colored nails have not been brought to Hispanic countries?. I'm really waiting here for an answer



I am sorry but capri's, 3 inch heels and painted toes are not drab. As for anything else, I prefer to fly under the radar so to speak, but to each their own. I can almost hear the boy and dad's conversation upon leaving the store...something along the lines of the boy asking and dad making derogatory remarks about the "insert expletive about gender or sexual preference"

Talking about predisposition.... How in hell can you know what this father told his kid? Why do you have to assume that he made derogatory remarks?

It's incredible how a forum that is supposed to foster open-mindness and acceptance has so much bigotry and stereotyping. This attitude is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Sorry but it just sucks.

[JohnH]

John, regarding my name - good point! It was never something I really wanted to do, but I was convinced some years ago to do that. I don't go by Kat anywhere except here. Honestly, you could call me Joe or Bob.. heck I don't care.

As for the pants and whatnot, double standard..

Deny this, and I'll grant you have something on that line of thinking...

What normal woman do you see padding her crotch, or growing leg hair, or wearing fake facial hair, or making physical unnatural modifications to their body to appear male?? Yet the majority of male crossdressers are trying to pass as female. wigs, fake nails, eyelashes, makeup, you name it - and all in efforts to appear female. A woman in a pair of shorts or sweatpants can still look very feminine and beautiful. What male CD's do is false advertising. They try to speak differently, walk differently, they pad their hips and breasts.. Come on.. there's no comparison.

You see my point?
By the way, Kat, what masculine name would you like me to call you?

I have natural long hair and natural breasts and hips. I have no use for wigs, breast forms, or hip padding. I really have no issue with makeup since for either gender it is an artificial thing. At any rate, I haven't started wearing it. I speak with my normal "Joe Friday" voice pitch no matter what I wear, and I do not modify the way I walk except only as necessary if I am wearing heels. I have no intention of speaking or acting like a female.

I do not really have a drab or femme mode as such - I used to have long fingernails with nail polish that I wore all the time but decided it was too much of a hastle so I don't do that anymore.

In other words, I make no effort to pass as a woman - I simply like to have additional options as far as my clothing and appearance. I do like to wear standard men's suits and in this cooler weather, plaid flannel shirts.

Kind regards,

John

[CharlotteW]

Trying on shoes is one thing, even if the boy noticed what you were doing. But putting on a little show waggling brightly painted toenails is a little OTT IMO

[KatGRL774]

John..
You can call me whatever you like - I prefer not to use my actual name, but I guess if I were to pick something it could be "James". I just randomly selected that...
Ok so anyhow,

Natural breasts? Natural hips? Does that mean you're shaped like a man, or that you somehow have the appearance of larger breasts and hips (like those found on a woman)? Because if you're referring to the latter.. I doubt they came "naturally" without the aid of hormones or something introduced to the body that it wasn't expecting. I believe this would go into the category of "un-natural" since it was artifically imposed and something your body wasn't meant to do. Or, unless you're talking about excess body fat - in which case, proportionally, you still would appear male because other features would have gotten larger due to excess weight. Obese folks, although they do have breasts, don't really have a "feminine shape".

Regarding the rest - I'd say you are not the average crossdresser. In fact I'd say you probably have confused a great multitude with your appearance. To each his own - but I would bet a large sum of money that this hasn't helped you in your life much. Be it career, family, friends, etc. Has it? Am I wrong? I really doubt it.. my apologies if I've offended.

[Raven586]

It always freaks me out when I come across kids, and i'm dressed up.
I guess it kinda makes me feel like I am doing something wrong and i just got caught.
I dunno go figure.

[JohnH]

James "Kat",

I am using my actual name. You don't appear to have the guts to use your actual name.
I have not done any hormonal treatments nor any surgery (e.g. breast implants) on my body. Large breasts in males run in my family. My hips are wide not due to fat but simply that I inherited that property from my mother. I am 5'10'' (178 cm) and I weigh about 188 lbs (85 kg), so I am only overweight and not obese. I have a target weight of 175 lbs (80 kg) so that I am no longer overweight.

You do have all the finesse of a sledgehammer in your last statements.
As far as my appearance I am overwhelmingly called "Sir" even when I wear a skirt. Draw your conclusions from that.
I also might mention that I sing second bass in the community chorus and church choir, so even if I wanted to sound like a woman it would be very difficult to do so.

John

[KatGRL774]

John -

I can dish it, and I can take it. It's my decision to not use my real name - not really a guts thing, call it what you like. More of a safety precaution. I come to this site to learn about myself and about others who share my compulsion to dress. I cannot figure you out.

Considering that crossdressing goes against the grain of society - it would be easier for most folks to just avoid doing it in public.. yet you choose to go out into the world presenting yourself as a male who likes to wear skirts. I'm sure this confuses many. So I would like to ask why you do it? Is it a sexual thing? Or is it a comfort thing? Or both? Why? If just comfort - I would think most would choose to be socially comfortable and choose pants over the only slight difference in comfort a skirt has to offer... and many women would tell you they'd rather wear pants.

BTW, you don't "inherit" hips from your mother. She has ovaries, which produce estrogen, which cause excess fat to develop on the hips and breasts. If you have larger hips than your waist then that is definately different than most genetic males.

One last note.. I certainly hope you don't wear a skirt to church. Unless that church thinks the bible is a bunch of crap. And if that's the case, what's the point if you can't believe in the church's instruction manual?

- Bob

[Engendered]

Wow. :sad:
(I'll post more tomorrow)

[JohnH]

Bob,

There is a huge difference between men and women as far as the genitals which is very obvious. I wear skirts for the comfort of not having the wedge of cloth rubbing against my testicles. Testicles are outside the body for the simple reason they need to be kept cooler. Men suffer from lowered sperm count, and testicular and prostate cancer due to the heat buildup that pants impose in hot weather.

Are you aware that 60 percent of the male population wear some variety of skirts? Also are you aware that in ancient Egyptian, Greek, and Roman cultures men wore skirts? In the ancient Greek and Roman cultures only women wore pants. In fact, the Romans had a term for pants - "feminalia". At one time in Rome if a man would dare show up wearing pants his property would be taken from him.

There are variations in how people are built. While my hips are not as wide as my mother's hers are wider than most women's. Yes, I do have wider hips than my waist. - waist of 37 inches and hips of 42 inches. But I don't have a disproportionate amount of fat on my hips - I simply have a wide pelvis.

Since when did Jesus wear pants? I don't wear skirts to church out of respect for the service, not because the Bible forbids me from doing so. That passage in Deuteronomy applies to women not wearing men's garments and men not wearing women's garments. I sort of have problems of women being permitted to wear pants to church since pants should be viewed as men's garments. Also the passage mentions that linen and wool are not to be mixed. So you have a very weak case of forbidding men from wearing skirts to church.

May I suggest that you who lives in a glass house [compulsion to cross dress] to quite throwing rocks at others. Either quit cross dressing or quit criticizing others.

John

[KatGRL774]

Well John, I actually am a recovering CDer. I make an effort to stop daily. I slip up occasionally, but mostly I do not dress.. anymore.

You've obviously read the Bible the way YOU want to read it, ignoring your conscience. What about all the other passages referencing homosexuals and effeminates? I know I'm not going to convince you - because you've already convinced yourself apparently that God is OK with crossdressing, and I guess you can take it up with Him when you see Him.

Now how about actually telling me the real reason you dress? Comfort is the only reason? Fear of testicular cancer? Please... That's a bunch of crap and I think you know it. As for the Romans, etc, what year was that?!

The whole point of this points to "WHY". Why do you feel such a need to have others accept as normal, things which are clearly not?

I guess you can live in your world, and I'll live in mine.

[Cassandra Lynn]

@Engendered, "Wow" is a huge understatement.

@VeronicaMoonlit, as per usual your post was precise, intelligent, and spot on correct.

That said, somewhere around post #43 this whole thread entered the twilight zone. Let's recap shall we: the traditional use of female pronouns lost it's favor, we reverted to male names and stopped being a forum for crossdressers, the OP itself totally disintegrated, we learned more than we could ever want about testicles, ovaries, hips, chests and body shapes, got an education in early anthropology (even including a nice dissertation on the roman and greek fashion styles..gee thanx John).

KatGRL, sorry for whatever happened to you as a child, but really now, if you can't participate on this forum in a decent manner than perhaps you should disregard this thread completely. Considering your last post, i have to wonder what it is that you think you can find here. Throwing around your self loathing is not what the majority is here to see.

John, your certainly welcome to share your opinion as you like, but at one point you were practically begging us all to adopt your own personal brand of being CD, is that going to be your typical post, i'd like to know if it is, as it will make it easier for me when i visit the forum.

Lastly KatGRL, you made a reference to the Springer shows being a bad influence, all this thread lacked was a stage and people and Jerry himself.

mj (Cassie)

[JohnH]

"Kat", or James, or Bob, or whatever you choose to call yourself--

I think with your feelings you might feel better going over to skirtcare.org. That is a forum where men wear skirts, kilts, and occasionally, dresses as MEN. Over in that forum you get to see MEN discuss their clothes in a masculine context.

I am not homosexual, and I am not effeminate except for my body profile. I do NOT ignore my conscience. I simply feel that I should be able to wear skirts and dresses the same way as a woman can wear pants and shorts. Again you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

What I protest against is the very plain dress that is imposed upon men. Before the French Revolution men had very beautiful clothing. Our Founding Fathers of the US wore fancy clothes and wigs. But what happened with the French Revolution is that all clothing that smacked of aristocracy was done away with.

One thing that does bother me about this forum is that the participants adopt a feminine mindset - feminine names, references, and pronouns. It goes beyond simply wearing clothes outside the very narrow constraint of acceptable men's clothing.

I think you have no business hanging around this forum if you consider crossdressing to be sinful. This forum would tempt you so that you would slip.

I suggest you accept your wearing skirts and dresses as a MAN, and not be secretive about it. It is not the article of clothing that condemns; it is the mindset that goes behind it. You need to consider the feelings of your wife and those around you. Just don't imagine yourself as a woman. If you do choose to stay in this forum I suggest you adopt a masculine name as I have done.

[maya1love]

I now understand where Kat is coming from as he is a "recovering CDer" and "makes an effort to stop daily" and given his references to the Bible. Everyone has a right to believe what they want and everyone has their own path to seek God. It just makes it clear to me that we are really in two different paradigms on this issue because I don't have a religious or moral issue with CDing. When the paradigm is so different, there's really no point in arguing. We all just co-exist with our different perspectives and we try to get along as best we can. No one will convince anyone of anything in this discussion.

[KatGRL774]

MJ..

Good post! Very funny actually... and true too..
I do have some strong feelings. And I'm sorry if they are coming out in a good bit of hostility. I guess I just really want to understand what makes certain people tick. I have a great deal of unanswered questions and I guess that is what frustrates me so much about CDing and transgender to begin with. And no.. I'll probably never seek counseling because that would require an explanation to my family. Not gonna do it. Ok.. I'm going to let this go since you're right - this thread took a turn into the ditch.

[JohnH]

John, your certainly welcome to share your opinion as you like, but at one point you were practically begging us all to adopt your own personal brand of being CD, is that going to be your typical post, i'd like to know if it is, as it will make it easier for me when i visit the forum.

mj (Cassie)

Kat, James, or Bob was really getting under my skin with his judgemental writings. I normally am not so strident in my preferences as to masculine names and references. Sorry.

[Added section]
I really would like to see wearing skirts, dresses, and heels, and applying makeup become acceptable attire for men just as pants became acceptable attire for women in the 1940's. So that is why I have my preferences of using a masculine name and masculine references.

[JohnH]

MJ..

I'll probably never seek counseling because that would require an explanation to my family. Not gonna do it. Ok.. I'm going to let this go since you're right - this thread took a turn into the ditch.

You need to divulge what you perceive as a problem to your family. What is shameful is that you keep your activities a secret.

I hang my feminine clothing out in the open in my closet and don't keep any of my activities a secret to anybody.

[abigailf]

Now this is an impressive discussion and good arguments on both sides. But most of it is emotional opinion and not much is based on fact.

The thing is over 90% of what a child learns from their parents/guardians occurs in the first seven years of life. This is also where they develop their basic drives and desires. There are few CD's out that have not had any CD activity (or desire) as a child.

It is egotistical to assume that the one or few times a child sees a TG will influence that behavior. We TG's are just not that powerful. If that were the case, then I should be a coke snorting crack smoking ***** that is a cop, fireman and daredevil that likes to drop anvils on peoples heads.

I am guessing the kid just thought it was strange because it is not something he sees everyday. I am surprised he did not say to his dad and in an obviously loud whisper "Dad. That man has painted toes."

If the child does become TG, then he probably already had transgendered drives and at best/worst (depending on your position) is learning that he is not alone (which at any age is very comforting).

As far as theology go, it is pointless to comment as people tend to have fanatical views when it comes to religion. My opinion here is that if God wants to send me to hell for what I have become under his care, then more power to him/her. Despite that, I still want to be a good girl.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Thanx Kat, and i wish you well.

[sissystephanie]

Natural breasts? Natural hips? Does that mean you're shaped like a man, or that you somehow have the appearance of larger breasts and hips (like those found on a woman)? Because if you're referring to the latter.. I doubt they came "naturally" without the aid of hormones or something introduced to the body that it wasn't expecting. I believe this would go into the category of "un-natural" since it was artifically imposed and something your body wasn't meant to do. Or, unless you're talking about excess body fat - in which case, proportionally, you still would appear male because other features would have gotten larger due to excess weight. Obese folks, although they do have breasts, don't really have a "feminine shape".

Regarding the rest - I'd say you are not the average crossdresser. In fact I'd say you probably have confused a great multitude with your appearance. To each his own - but I would bet a large sum of money that this hasn't helped you in your life much. Be it career, family, friends, etc. Has it? Am I wrong? I really doubt it.. my apologies if I've offended.

KatGRL, I do have Natural 40 B breasts and have had them since age 13 or 14. I have worn a bra, under doctors orders, since age 9. And I also have feminine hips which I have had for many years. No hormones or anything else involved. It is just me, the way I am. But I am a male, the father of two wonderful children who know that I crossdress and don't care. My late wife of course knew, actually from before we married. She fully supported me for the almost 50 years we had together. Since she is no longer around to help with my makeup and fix my wig, I go out in public dressed enfemme but looking like the man I am, just like John. If this opposes you, then don't look at me if you see me walking around the Mall, etc. I have been going everywhere like that for over 5 years and have never had a rude comment! In fact, what I usually hear is, "what a pretty outfit you have on!" I hear that often, since I do have pride in what I wear. I may not be the average crossdresser since I don't even try to "pass" now, but I would bet that there are a lot of us out here!

I have a hard time understanding your anger, as shown in your posts on this thread! I don't know what age you are, but you sound like someone who had a bad childhood. If this is true, I would reccomend some good therapy! Best of luck to you!!

[Nicole Erin]

If some kid notices you trying on sandals, that is one thing - whatever.
Society consists of all ages. Kind of why it is important to dress decent when out and about.
Putting on a show and then bragging about it on a forum is probably not a bright idea.

Save the flaunting for grown MEN who might be gawking.

[Danni Bear]

Katgirl and john,

There are some cd's and ts that do look feminine due not to hormones or trickery. They have a fem body due to their genetic makeup. I myself am one of those. At 28 I had a 36/23/38 body shape. at 62 now and after grs/srs 12 years ago I have a 38/29/42 shape. still 5ft 3and1/2 ins tall. with seven kids and 22 grandkids that have known all their lives about my crossdressing and transition. They have all grown up or are maturing knowing that people can be different and accepting that difference in others. Only one of my grandkids have ever said anything about cd' or ts and that is a grand daughter that just this summer said that she doesn't want to be a girl. We are still taking her/him to a therapist to determine exactly where she wants it to go. And Kat for your information there are F2M ts that do pad and use false wiskers to protray men in public.

Danni

[JohnH]

I too have natural breasts - if I were to wear a bra it would be 42B. I don't need to wear one since my breasts don't hold up a pencil below them.

My dimensions are 44-37-42 meaning my hips are a bit bigger than my waist. When I was young I used to have to get pants with a wider waist than necessary to fit my waist so the pants would fit over my hips. I aim to exercise and lose some more weight to get my waist down to 35 inches.

I have had no surgery or hormone treatments.

[Rachel Morley]

Does this mean that we as transgendered people should not dress and go to stores in the daytime where there are children around? I wonder if this is the same mentality as saying that gay men or gay women shouldn't hold hands with each other in front of kids.
Exactly! Lets keep this in perspective. IMHO, wearing capris and sandals with painted toenails (in itself) is not going to "corrupt" anyone, crossdressing does not "corrupt" ... not even little kids. Even persuade is unlikely but corrupt is way too harsh a word to use.


Ughh. This is all so pathetic in many ways. This forum is supposed to be about acceptance and support, but once again those who can't accept this thing that we are, shoot from the hip because they can't see beyond what they feel about themselves. Sadly, I agree with this comment.


The conversation between the father and his son after they left the store could have just as well been a positive moment when dad could have explained that the different people in the world all contribute to our experience in life and that being confident in yourself, no matter who you are, is always a positive thing in your own life. I agree with this comment too. Why is it that some folks put 2+2 together and come up with 5? We don't know what the conversation was like in the car assuming there even was one, and if thee was, why assume it was negative? The father didn't seem to care in the store.

The only thing that IMHO is a bit "near the mark" was flaunting it in front of the little kid. That wasn't necessary, but at the same time, IMHO you shouldn't have to hide anything just because you're a genetic male wearing capris, sandals and painted toenails. :2c:

[Leslie Langford]

Bob,

...There is a huge difference between men and women as far as the genitals which is very obvious. I wear skirts for the comfort of not having the wedge of cloth rubbing against my testicles. Testicles are outside the body for the simple reason they need to be kept cooler. Men suffer from lowered sperm count, and testicular and prostate cancer due to the heat buildup that pants impose in hot weather...

John

... that if someone were to ask you "boxers or briefs?" your answer would be "none of the above" and that you prefer to go "commando" under your skirt i.e. in the best tradition of the true Highland Scots? T.M.I. for most of us here, although this thread is getting better and better all the time :heehee::eek:

Airing Henry and the twins in this way might be O.K. in the summertime, and it was probably no coincidence that it was the Romans, Egyptians, Sumerians, and Assyrians et al who wore skirts back in the day because they enjoyed the luxury of living in a warm climates.

Oddly enough, this custom never took hold with the Vikings, the Laplanders, or the Inuit. Could it be that like the proverbial brass monkey, they were far more concerned with "shrinkage" or even frostbite than the occasional chafing or jock itch caused by wearing more traditional masculine garb? Just sayin'...:daydreaming::doh:

[JohnH]

I alternate between men's briefs (Hanes) and panties (Hanes Her Way). The only reason that I wear panties is I found them in a box that was left by my former wife and they fit me. In either case there is no wedge of cloth as there is with pants. Yes, it is a compromise to wear underpants with my skirts but I don't want to be busted for indecent exposure.

Here in the Dallas area we can see temperatures as high as 40 deg C/104 deg F and skirts feel mighty nice under those conditions.

[Jamie001]

Rachael,

I agree with everything you posted including the flaunting it. The reason that I did it was because he had already been staring for about 5 minutes and I was getting somewhat perturbed. Neither children or adults should just stand and stare. At his age he should have known better. I felt like he was trying to make me feel embarassed about what I was doing. I should also have known better and just ignored him rather than allowing his staring to get under my skin. When I was growing up. children were not allowed to stare.

[Sara Jessica]

This thread has become the proverbial car crash. One cannot help but to rubberneck a bit.

That said, on OP's premise that was presented, I agree we should not be put in a position to have to hide how we present provided we were respectful. That said, the flaunting appears to have been thought through clearly to the point where it was done and then bragged about without a lot of though as to why this may not have been the best behavior to engage in. Perhaps OP understands this now.

Back to hiding, I'm not seeing "toys-r-us" on my list of places to go when on an outing (hmmm, but you never know, "black friday" is coming up very soon). However, we will encounter children and again, respect is key. We don't know a thing about their upbringing, what they feel inside, what they might say to their parents, and heaven knows what the parent might say back later on. All we can do is to be the best, most positive ambassadors for our community as possible, no matter who we encounter.


One thing that does bother me about this forum is that the participants adopt a feminine mindset - feminine names, references, and pronouns. It goes beyond simply wearing clothes outside the very narrow constraint of acceptable men's clothing.

I suggest you accept your wearing skirts and dresses as a MAN, and not be secretive about it. It is not the article of clothing that condemns; it is the mindset that goes behind it. You need to consider the feelings of your wife and those around you. Just don't imagine yourself as a woman. If you do choose to stay in this forum I suggest you adopt a masculine name as I have done.

John, while I respect your point of view, I find your comments such as these examples as having an absolute lack of respect for a vast majority of those of us in these parts.

In case you haven't realized, the tg world rests upon a spectrum. There are some with your POV, others wish to emulate women in every way, shape and form. And still others feel the woman inside of them to the core of their very being to the point where the prospect of transition becomes a very real dream, something that becomes a reality for many others as well. And this cursory illustration cannot possibly spotlight every point of light in between.

I have gotten my head around how you present and why it's important to you (no thanks to you, I might add). There are at least a few other members here who are of a similar mindset whose posts are thoughtful and respectful, ones who I enjoy reading whenever they come up. With their insight as to their place in this tg world of ours, I understand their POV and for that I am grateful.

That said, if the use of feminine names, pronouns, etc. bothers you so much, perhaps that other forum you mentioned is a better fit for you.

[Amanda22]

Abigail, i love what you said, especially about how little influence we as TGers have, and also your comments on the back and forth of religious fanaticism.

[Rachel Morley]

I agree with everything you posted including the flaunting it. The reason that I did it was because he had already been staring for about 5 minutes and I was getting somewhat perturbed. Neither children or adults should just stand and stare. At his age he should have known better. I felt like he was trying to make me feel embarrassed about what I was doing. I should also have known better and just ignored him rather than allowing his staring to get under my skin. When I was growing up. children were not allowed to stare.

Hi Jamie - I just re-read your original post and I didn't realize that the "little" kid was 10 years old. For some reason, I was imagining someone like 6 in my mind so to me 10 is not that "little". I guess it's now it is my turn to say I agree with you as at 10 I think he or his father should have known that staring is not polite.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Originally Posted by JohnH
One thing that does bother me about this forum is that the participants adopt a feminine mindset - feminine names, references, and pronouns. It goes beyond simply wearing clothes outside the very narrow constraint of acceptable men's clothing.

I suggest you accept your wearing skirts and dresses as a MAN, and not be secretive about it. It is not the article of clothing that condemns; it is the mindset that goes behind it. You need to consider the feelings of your wife and those around you. Just don't imagine yourself as a woman. If you do choose to stay in this forum I suggest you adopt a masculine name as I have done.


Originally posted by Sara Jessica
John, while I respect your point of view, I find your comments such as these examples as having an absolute lack of respect for a vast majority of those of us in these parts.

In case you haven't realized, the tg world rests upon a spectrum. There are some with your POV, others wish to emulate women in every way, shape and form. And still others feel the woman inside of them to the core of their very being to the point where the prospect of transition becomes a very real dream, something that becomes a reality for many others as well. And this cursory illustration cannot possibly spotlight every point of light in between.

I have gotten my head around how you present and why it's important to you (no thanks to you, I might add). There are at least a few other members here who are of a similar mindset whose posts are thoughtful and respectful, ones who I enjoy reading whenever they come up. With their insight as to their place in this tg world of ours, I understand their POV and for that I am grateful.

That said, if the use of feminine names, pronouns, etc. bothers you so much, perhaps that other forum you mentioned is a better fit for you.

Ditto for me.
While i understand the need for diversity, and to accept all for their views and beliefs, this constant urging, pushing, suggesting and otherwise repetitive display of "my way is the right way", has become very tiring.

Please john, i think we all now understand what your way is, could you be so kind as to limit your posts and responses to something more supportive of the greater majority, or at the very least, share your views when you are responding to others like you?
Surely you can find something to share that goes beyond the "we need to be men dresssing in skirts". If not then as Sara says, maybe you would be happier over at the forum you stated.

I apologize to any who thinks my post is in bad taste, i'm trying my best to not be rude or unthoughtful.
mj (Cassie)

[JohnH]

As I said I was a little perturbed at KatGRL and my expression of my position of using a male name and male references was a bit more strident than usual. That is my position; however, I have had time to cool down and now I realize I was a bit too harsh.

I will try to suppress my urge for my preferences above in the future, and I apologize to anyone whom I have offended.

Actually I find it fascinating to see the wide spectrum of individuals in the forum - from myself as a "dude in a skirt or dress" all the way to transitioned individuals.

Kind regards,

John

[Rhonda Jean]

Oh, c'mon JohnH... You wear skirts and dresses to keep your balls cool? How's that excuse workin' for ya'? I'm sure you have equally scientific rationale behing the heels and makeup. You've been pretty clear that your a he-man. It's probably very difficult, coming from such a position of masculine superiority, to just admit you like wearing women's clothes. Is it just a teeny bit possible that you make no attempt to pass as a woman because you can't?

Maybe it's kinda like the reason I don't want to be rich. Can't stand those rich people!

[JohnH]

Rhonda,

I must say that your avatar really looks cute.

Yes I do like wearing women's clothes. I never get to see my wife wearing any skirts or dresses, so I guess I'm the one who wears them. Her feet keep her from wearing heels - 1 inch is pushing it - so that is why I have a pair of 4 inch stiletto sandals that I wear, and when I get a job, I would like to get more heels and dresses.

My voice would certainly be the Achilles heel in attempting to pass. I have a really deep voice with a normal singing range that extends to Bb below the bass staff and sometimes I can make a sound down to F# (four ledger lines) below the bass staff. I would really have to work hard in developing a passable feminine voice!

I do not consider masculinity superior to femininity. As I said before, it is very inconsistent for tomboys to be considered OK but shameful for boys to be feminine [janegirls]. This position really demeans the feminine state.

Kind regards,

John

[bobi jean]

I don't normally do this but;

John you say and I quote "Actually I find it fascinating to see the wide spectrum of individuals in the forum - from myself as a "dude in a skirt or dress" all the way to transitioned individuals."
can I ask why you find this so fascinating?? You do know this is a CROSS DRESSERS SITE don't you???? You do not have to keep explaining the inability to pass to everyone. hell I don't either and I consider myself as a transwoman. I live, I dress and I love as a woman but I still have to shave my face every (sometimes twice) a day, I still have my male parts, I am almost 6 feet tall, weigh 175, have a 34 inch waist and a voice that is like Bowzer on Sha Na Na! but I love me and my life so I do it, the way I want to, and so can you, if you want!!
AND i THINK WE SHOULD ALLOW OTHERS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY, RIGHT????

[JohnH]

bobi jean,

I think it would be well for me not to post any more messages on this forum for the time being. I have ruffled too many feathers, and there needs to be a cooling off period.

John

[bobi jean]

BUT YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS!
I'D REALLY LIKE to know why you find the diversity so fascinating.

[Nigella]

This thread has gone way off topic and is now closed.