What's taken for granted?

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I'm reading "My Husband Betty" and Helen Boyd makes an asute observation that cross-dressers often are envious of things GG take for granted: "They envy the easy friendship between women, the casual way women touch each other when they talk. Imagine a man gently brushing another man's hair out of his eyes while they're chatting! But women do that kind of thing all the time, even ones who aren't especially feminine."

(The reverse is also true for GGs. I know many women who envy men's freedom to move in safety -- something I didn't truly understand until going out en femme.)

Maybe this is one reason it's difficult for GGs to understand why we do it. Partly, I think we're not always able to clearly articulate some of these things precisely because they're so taken for granted. Partly, it's when we do, GGs have a hard time seeing why these sorts of things might be special to us -- I've often heard GGs express puzzlement about our attraction to make-up. Of course, there's also a big difference wanting to do something -- like wearing skirts or make-up -- and feeling obligated to do it.

Thoughts? What things taken for granted by the opposite sex do you envy?

[eleventhdr]

Let me think on this and get back to you on it alright! I'm very sure there are a lot of reasons that we envy what females can do that males are not alowed still yet to do. Suzy!.

[Lisa Golightly]

Envy? Hmmmm.... Well I can do pretty much everything they can, except get pregnant... I envy that, but there are a lot of GGs with whom I share that envious thought.

[Cheery GG]

Can i pose a question on the back of that question ????

Why does society say that women are the weaker sex....? If what you Cd's are saying is true and that you envy women and what we are and can do etc....do you feel that we are the weaker sex too ??????


cheery
xx

[TammyB]

Can i pose a question on the back of that question ????

Why does society say that women are the weaker sex....? If what you Cd's are saying is true and that you envy women and what we are and can do etc....do you feel that we are the weaker sex too ??????

cheery
xx

Weaker in what way? I dont think society does anymore. Anybody that thinks either sex is weaker/stronger is rather daft IMHO.

[Lisa Golightly]

No... Girl's are definitely the stronger sex.. In my opinion... I'm always very grateful when my black belt martial arts GG friend walks me to my car at night... and the level of pain you seem to be able to tolerate is truly awesome (Me I faint at the sight of blood, and colds are soooooo dibilitating... achoooo!) ;)

[Wendy me]

well as far as i can tell or so it seams .. something that is not to be so called "THE NORM" for a group of people and yet is veary mutch ok for a nouther group ... it brings out the thoughts and disires to just think how is that??? looks soooo good but i wonder.......we are the ones that take that step and let that part of us out , lose ... even though in my thinking every man out there has thought abought how something might feel .... thay just aren't that comfy with a step on the oputher side.....

we are envious simply because we have come to edge of what is so called off limites and step over into a whole new world were just the simple things bring pleasure to our lives....

[Tristen Cox]

Why does society say that women are the weaker sex....? If what you Cd's are saying is true and that you envy women and what we are and can do etc....do you feel that we are the weaker sex too

I never did understand that one. Nor did I ever agree that this is "a man's world" . Actually I think they've got those both reversed IMO.

B.O.T.

[Vaerise]

Can i pose a question on the back of that question ????

Why does society say that women are the weaker sex....? If what you Cd's are saying is true and that you envy women and what we are and can do etc....do you feel that we are the weaker sex too ??????


cheery
xx

While I do not really feel that women are the weaker sex. I think most people still treat them as such on a subconcious level.
Physically they are not as strong.
Women have just as much potential to perform in the workplace as much as man.
However in some organizations or society women are still considered 2nd class citizen and their place should never be outside a home/kitchen. Therefore they do not move up the corporate ladder as quickly as some men do, not because they are not capable but for some sexist reasons.
Girls also often get "rescued" by their male colleagues most of the time.
At least I see this happening at our workplace all the time...

As to the original post, I have to say yes.
There are alot of things that as a male I take for granted.
I can walk safely at night and am not the least bit worried, I do not have to go through PMS like women have to. I also do not have to watch my diet like most women have to. I also do not have to worry about getting cancer in my breast or uterus etc etc. In general women seem to fall sick easier.

I do envy the women's choice of clothes, their movement and grace, as well as their modes of expression. I never really seen man hug each other and touch each other. But girls do it all the time, its also easier to let your emotions out and cry as a girl, but not as a man.


Well this is kind of nice. The 2nd thought provoking post in the forums in one night. :D

[mand]

I don't think there is a weaker gender, both genders have there strength's and weaknesess. There is no way I'm going to start saying that the female gender is much better than the male one just to make me appear more feminine. I've seen that done before on another forum.
Where do the Transgendered fit in then?...................I have no idea, I just be myself, thats all I can be.

Do I class myself as being lesser in strength compared with a so called "normal man"? or less feminine than a woman born female?..........Again I can't define these thing's, I'm simply just me.

I'll tell you one thing that really made me question were I did fit in within the gender difference's. A TG that I'd met a couple of times once said to me that I made her question, her own TG feelings. I asked her "why?....she said that I bought out the male protective feelings in her, because I had a "nervous type quality about me, that made her want to protect me"........that is one of the strangest things's that has ever been said to me, Totally confused me.

No answers from me I'm affraid, only more question's ;)


love mand xxx :)

[Tiffy]

I never did understand that one. Nor did I ever agree that this is "a man's world" . Actually I think they've got those both reversed IMO.

B.O.T.





Years ago it may have been a mans world. And I am sure it was men who said this. I am also pretty sure that women were considered weaker because they seem to let emotion make decisions for them. Where men seem to be able to detach feeling from decisions. I am not saying women can not. I am just saying that I feel this was the reason for the weaker sex statement.

However, it is no longer a mans world. When it was things just were because man said so. Today everything is based on feelings. The things we do or say are regulated by whom they may upset. Political correctness. That is a whole other book. Because I am ok with trying not upset anyone but this country was not founded or being passive..........Sorry getting side tracked.



As far as what I envy about the oppisite sex........their ability to express emotion openly, the closeness they have with each other (mentioned above with the light touching), the way they are treated special, and most of all, they way that some (like myself) stare at them in total awe at their beauty and softness.

Kisses, April

[Kimberly]

It's all relative, I think women do take their freedom of dressing for granted, BUT they do feel obliged to act feminine etc.

Also, the freedom to move around safely is a thing to note when I go out for the first time, dressed. I'll be sure to have a good group protecting me... and I know just the macho friend - and she's female!! ;) w00t for breaking the gender-conventions!

[BlackMagic]

Hmmm. Hmm. Hm. Lots of thoughts. Don't know if I can convey.

One thing I think is that all men have a fem side. Whether they choose to accept that is another subject. To that end I think expressing ourselves as we do is a lot healthier than not. A much needed release. In my case a total departure from the thick skin I have to wear during the day.

Man's World, Hmm, man's world. Ok. To some extent I could say that is true as men (not really society) are the one's who dictate what is socially acceptable and what normal is. I don't think most Women would really care that we cd but Men sure do. Guys are cruel.

"Weaker sex." "Feeling secure walking down a street." I have a great body...if you're a girl. I'm 5'9" and about 130 lbs. I was 15 before I broke the 100 lbs. mark. I've spent a lot of my time working in what has been tradtionally a man's job. Field survey. Macho macho. As an example. We will fall on the ground laughing if one of our colleagues gets hung up in an electric cattle fence. Generally not much you can do for them unless you want to flop around like a fish with them. Not going to kill 'em. They'll shake off eventually. Might as well help yourself to a slice of priceless entertainment. So you don't show pain or fear or inability. Why? Because of man's perception, not societies. Because of that I've spent my adult life proving my abilities beyond and because of my size. Much of that perception is cancelled out by self-confidence. That's what gives me the ability to walk down a street and feel relatively safe. You've heard the expression:"Yeah though I walk through the Valley of the shadow of Death. I will fear no Evil for I am the Meanest Mother in the Valley." Not like a short guy who throws his shoulders as he walks to look bigger or "The Boy Named Sue" (Johnny Cash).

My Wife on the other hand sees right through that in me. She could knock my butt in the dirt in a heartbeat if she had a mind to. Fortunately she never does. She was very athletic growing up and is a former Ski Patroller. She's had more broken bones than I can't count. I've never had one. I've watched her give birth so I know without doubt she is a much stronger person than me both physically and mentally. As far as keeping them in the kitchen. My Wife is a PhD. If I kept her in the kitchen we would starve because we would have no money. She grosses near 3 times as much as me. If she's the weaker sex it's only because she had a weakness for me. Silly GG.

Ok. What was the question? Sorry about the rant. I know I'm not conveying all my thoughts or my thoughts very well. Confusing life for me. I'm having to tear down the wall I built for the sake of "Man's Perception" brick by brick. John Vs. Jill. Jill Vs. John. Makes for some interesting internal conflicts.

All my opinion. My opinion and a $1.25 will get you a cup of coffee. ;)

[mand]

I didn't really answer the actual question above :o


Whats taken for granted?.................."Freedom of expression", I know I always say this but it is true, living as a male is so constricting............"A man has to be a man but a woman can be herself".


love mand xxx :)

[Kimberly]

Ok. What was the question? Sorry about the rant. I know I'm not conveying all my thoughts or my thoughts very well.
I got what you were saying. :)

xx

[Puer]

I never did understand that one. Nor did I ever agree that this is "a man's world" . Actually I think they've got those both reversed IMO.

B.O.T.

I'm not normally one to argue, but given the position of women in society on a global level it is a man's world. Men still own most of the property, make most of the laws and expect women to look after them and their children.

I agree though about women not being the weaker sex. Men and women both have their weaknesses and their strengths. We just have to recognise and celebrate everyone's strengths.

(By the way, what I envy about men - that they don't have periods!!!!!)

[Lauren_T]

It's not really an answer to Darla's Q, but rather a side-jaunt inspired by some of the passing commentary;

If you think about it a mo, we all know of two types of GGs - the ones for whom being 'girly' is an obligation and a chore, but given their druthers, would prefer wearing baggy sweats, no makeup, hose, &c, &c. - and the ones who fair revel in everything girly.

That second group understands and appreciates us a lot more than the first, wouldn't you agree? I mean. Stands to reason, donnit? :D

[Rachel_740]

Can i pose a question on the back of that question ????

Why does society say that women are the weaker sex....? If what you Cd's are saying is true and that you envy women and what we are and can do etc....do you feel that we are the weaker sex too ??????


cheery
xx

Since I transitioned at the start of the year my feelings have changed dramatically. Obviously there are my feelings regarding how I present myself, what I look like etc. As a man I didn't really worry too much as to what I looked like. I would get up in the morning, wash and throw on whatever clothes came to hand first - sometimes matching, usually not - run a comb through my hair and off to work and that was it for the rest of the day. Since I transitioned I get up, brush my hair, wash, de-odorant, perfume, make-up. Brush my hair again, get dressed, thinking carefully about what I'm putting with what, what I was wearing yesterday and what I may be wearing tomorrow so I don't wear similar things two days running. Once I am dressed I brush my hair again and put hair spray on it. I am then ready to go to work. As 'him' all this would have been far too much effort. As the new me, I enjoy doing it all. Not once have I thought 'I'm not going anywhere today, I'm not going to bother with make-up' or anything like it. I have so much time now for me.

Getting to your question about the 'weaker sex', I don't really see one sex as weaker than the other - each has there own strong and weak points. However, as a man I always felt it my duty to support my partners and family by going to work to support the family financially - if my wife did work, as far as I was concerned that was her money. I felt it my position to do all the garden, house repairs (or have them done), decorating and everything else and if my wife wanted to help that was her decision. I would also help a lot with the children (getting up at night for feeds when they were young, even when I was working the next day) and housework including cooking and cleaning. I also made sure I was there for emotional support for my wife.

My feelings have changed since my transition so when I have had my op, I would like a man who goes out to work to earn, but I also want to work and help support the household financially - I don't want to be a kept woman. I don't want to be the emotionally stronger partner any more - I want someone there who's shoulder I can cry on, someone who will let me nestle into him, who will pet me, make a fuss of me etc.

As a bread-winner, around the house etc. I want to be an equal partner - and at the same time I still want to be myself. Emotionally I want to be the weaker partner.

I'm struggling to put this into words but I hope you understand what I'm saying.

Anne

[Tristen Cox]

I'm not normally one to argue, but given the position of women in society on a global level it is a man's world. Men still own most of the property, make most of the laws and expect women to look after them and their children.
Ah yes, but who controls the men? Men have always allowed women to influence their actions without (or with) women trying.

[Melissa Ryan]

Ah yes, but who controls the men? Men have always allowed women to influence their actions without (or with) women trying.



Tristen does! :D

[Tristen Cox]

Tristen does! :D
Damn right I do :p

[Melissa Ryan]

No argument from me lady!!!

[HaleyPink2000]

Is this book worth the read?

Thanks!
Haley:)

[Khriss]

-though icons of strength or - ,, are ,,, hey ..there's a statue in New York's harbor that summs it up -I'm thinking.... women are like the cement that keeps the foundation strong, and unseen,often under acknowledged,,,,,god knows why-I might strive to emulate "Them" er-or "Fem"..??... hmmm "K"

[JocelynG]

Wohoo I made the 200 mark.I don't want to get into a man vs woman battle. Personally I feel that women are a very much stronger sex. First and foremost they have so many layers that their depth and personality is profound. There are layers to my wife that I have only begun to reach. Their emotional depth,I feel goes beyond what any man can do. They also have a high endurance for pain. I mean if I had to go through childbirth i doubt I could bear the amount of excrutiating pain these mothers, these special souls do to bring life into this world. I also notice that they don't have to hide their emotions as much as men do. It makes us feel uncomfortable to see a woman cry but even more so to see a man cry. These are just my thoughts and not doctrine

[ChristineRenee]

I would say that I envy the nurturing side women have...which I think stems initially from giving birth and then extends outward after that. Because men do not have babies, I do think that it is easier for them to emotionally detach themselves...if they choose to do so that is. Men certainly have the capacity to be nurturers...yet we aren't conditioned from birth to be that way...like society doesn't expect or want us to play that role in life...it becomes a more learned trait for men, whereas I believe it is more ingrained in women to be that way. This is only my opinion and I'm not trying to stereotype here...just an observation on my part.

I envy the freedom of dress that women have...obviously. I envy the style and grace that they have. I envy their caring and concern for others...their ability to connect emotionally and bond with their friends and to be totally open with their feelings and emotions. I envy their conduct, the politeness, the desire to not hurt other's feelings with an uncaring, and unnecessary comment. I envy their general lack of boorishness...their ability to maintain their class and dignity. Generally speaking...you don't see women act like total idiots or jerks in public...and be PROUD of it.

Those are just some of the things that I envy...and truly admire about the fairer (not weaker) sex!:love:

[FROCKYHORROR]

I envy the power a woman has to arouse desire in men without even realising it,they may take it for granted or feel obliged to wear those heels, skirt and makeup etc but surely they must feel good knowing what a stir it causes to the men around them.Granted the unwarrented attention must at times feel quite threatening, but if out with freinds etc it must feel fantastic, to go outside,to walk through a mall,to linger in the lingerie department without the feeling of people looking at you like a weirdo.I envy their freedom of exhibition,she can choose to look glamorous if and when she feels and no one will condemn her if she ventures outside,or she could be casual and not make such an effort just jeans and t-shirt,and still not be condemned when outside. She can be as Manly as she wants,and do manly things,and people will admire her independance and strength and also find the tom boyish thing cute, and at the same time she can be as feminine and as glamorous as she wants, wearing what ever she feels is appropriate for whatever the venture is, and she'll be treated like a princess. Heres a saying I picked up somewhere that sums it up "WOMEN RULE, AND MEN DRUEL". If i were to dress up and just pop down to the shops, or go to a bar, or lay in the garden in a bikini, (all these simple things women can take for granted) it could actualy ruin your life, you could lose your job,lose respect of freinds and relatives,create whispering and gossiping in the neighbourhood "oo did you know that fella at number ## is a crossdresser, bloody pervert we don't want that sort here", the possible impact of its disclosure creates so much fear and anxiety it keeps us locked up.We stay inside,we become experts at covering our tracks,finding escape routes.Why? just so that we can be who we really are, without the world outside destroying us.Women haven't got to worry about that, they are free, and we are trapped, unless of cause, we just didn't give a fig what anybody thinks and just got on with it, despite the risks.

[cd_isabelle]

hello,

personally what i feel is taken for granted by ggs and i love is the personal and intimate relationships ggs share with other girls. the close knit and confiding relationships i really adore, to have someone or a group of others who will always look out for you, know you like the back of their hand and will often just do sweet random things is was i long for.

well theres my thoughts

kisses,

cd_isabelle

[Debbie Kong]

"They envy the easy friendship between women, the casual way women touch each other when they talk. Imagine a man gently brushing another man's hair out of his eyes while they're chatting! But women do that kind of thing all the time, even ones who aren't especially feminine."

Thoughts? What things taken for granted by the opposite sex do you envy?


One way that I get to express my femininity while not dressed is the touching thing. Over the last few years I have been doing more and more of it. For the most part I work with women so it is easy to do it regularly but I will, occaisionally, freak out a guy by touching him while we talk. Good salespersons develop an art for touching I believe but, as you are saying, it appears to come easier between women. I am happy that, over the years, I have become touch friendly because I always feel like I'm releasing my "femme side" while doing it.

In the end though I feel that guys have it easier and that they can take more for granted than women although things seem to be improving.

Debbie

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Is this book worth the read?

Still finishing up, but I'd say definitely yes. One of the more clear-headed and sympathetic books I've seen. (Although I do think Boyd misses some things and despite her overall acceptance, does still have some issues that color things.)

I think it's probably overwhelming as an SO's first introduction to TG issues, but could be really useful for those who've gotten over their initial reaction and want to do delve deeper. However, in this case I'd suggest reading -- and discussing -- it together.