astounding new numbers/transgender occurance in population [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Inna

11-05-2010, 03:47 PM

Stephanie Anne

11-05-2010, 04:00 PM

I blame bottled water and fast food.

Oh and /cry /whine I ain't special no moars!!!

Louise C

11-05-2010, 04:15 PM

:eek:wow! thats incredible figures - i was under the impression it was more like 1 in 11000.

Melody Moore

11-05-2010, 04:46 PM

Thanks Alexia and I would agree with those figures as well. I personally believe that a lot of this has to do wit the fact that there is more information & support now available online. If it wasnt for the internet I know I would never have learnt what I did about myself and come out. I finally realised through the internet there was many others like me out there in the world. I feel I owe my life to the internet because of what I have learnt over the past few years.

Traci Elizabeth

11-05-2010, 04:50 PM

In my family the numbers are a lot higher (50%) ... wait ... there's just my wife and myself since we are now empty nesters! Silly me!

Kathryn Martin

11-05-2010, 04:53 PM

The actual numbers come from Lynn Conway, who did some invaluable work. It is one 2500 is a post op transexual and one in 500 is gender variant in some way.

Louise C

11-05-2010, 05:01 PM

I feel I owe my life to the internet because of what I have learnt over the past few years.

Amen to that, Melody.

boardpuppy

11-05-2010, 05:43 PM

Alright, with the other 4 or 5 trans people here we could start our own support group. As if, these red necks don't jnow what the word trans means.

Alice

Billijo49504

11-05-2010, 06:02 PM

That's great news!! But I'm still the only one on my block, I think ;-)...BJ

Louise C

11-06-2010, 02:13 AM

Boardpuppy - Care to elaborate?

Areyan

11-06-2010, 03:28 AM

The actual numbers come from Lynn Conway, who did some invaluable work. It is one 2500 is a post op transexual and one in 500 is gender variant in some way.

i also found lynn conway's figures and realised that at least 1 in 1000 female-sexed babies are actually transsexual males, whether they get treatment or not... i also agree. i am in a NZ online group of transmen as well and we number over 2000 so far, which says a lot considering NZ's population is less than 7 million people. and we're just an online group... that wouldn't count the number of successful FTM transitions in NZ over the last 20 years or so. i agree with lynn's work. it makes perfect sense that i am finding a lot of FTMs online.

i think these numbers need to be really advocated to our cis loved ones and the public at large... would be amazing if people really considered that we're not as rare as people really think we are. :thumbsup:

LeannL

11-06-2010, 11:22 PM

This subject has been discussed many times and the answers were somewhere in between 1-2% of population for transsexuality. I have just come back from my first session with psychologist and PhD at that with an astounding new knowledge of the newest medical research conducted. As it appears one out of 700-1000 people is affected in some sort of gender flux, this number encompasses all the diversity of gender dysphoria from MtoF through FtoM but nevertheless an eye opening fact. With such numbers one can imagine the family we inherit and the freak of nature suddenly becomes a mainstream occurrence. With the society still embracing black and white view of gender we got a long way to go but with such knowledge the road ahead doesn't feel empty and alone but heart warming to the fact so many more people know how we feel even though they them selves don't admit to it.

I am not sure I quite follow you comments about the statistics. One out of 1000 is 0.1%. 1% would be 10 out of 1000. Personally, I don't believe the 1 out of 1000 and, probably for selfish reasons, want to believe the 1-2%.

Leann

7sisters

11-06-2010, 11:39 PM

PrettyGirl

11-07-2010, 01:20 AM

Yes these figures seem to be right. And TS will get even more prevalent as we put xenoestrogens and all things to upset the hormones, into our foods, environment. Even some of the stuff given to women who are pregnant so they dont miscarry, is known to cause intersex or TS children.

You took the words right out of my mouth.
I wonder how many are because of environment nowadays vs how many are just born that way. So much toxic chemical crap in everything made now.
Now if we can only get to 1 in 100 then we would all live in a better world and with those odds, close minded people would be forced to be more excepting with it too. Otherwise we would swam them and trample them with our 6 inch stilettos.

7sisters

11-07-2010, 03:06 AM

Well I fervently hope it never gets to 1 in 100, because most of them will not have money to have SRS/HRT.

In less affluent countries, seeing a real doctor is a dream. In certain countries, the obituary section in the newspaper is itself a mini-newspaper because simple medicine is just totally unfordable. I am not lying here. I myself was shocked to tears.
Makes me sad, that those most vulnerable to artificial hormones, xenoestrogens, will never have the money for SRS/GRS.HRT for their children. So TS people in poorer nations are going to be condemned to live a life of misery in bodies they dont identify with. In richer nations, governments can and finally will subsidise cost for medi-procedures. But that is going to mean an addition to everyones taxes. At one point of time, even the governments will have to shrug and withdraw medical subsidization. Then what?? There is already talk about social security going extinct. I have at least two Transmen friends who may never be able to have the bodies they desire thanks to medical costs.

Kokoro

11-07-2010, 06:26 AM

If I can just chime in here, 7sisters, I don't believe that is so much the case in less affluent countries as far as transgenderism goes. Though it depends on what level you are talking about (African/Amazon tribes, 3rd-world nations such as Ethiopia etc.). The absence of transgenderism and mental illnesses (I know TG is not a mental illness - read on for an explanation) basically takes a back-seat so a person focus on more important things - such as as survival, where the next meal and drink of water is coming from etc. There is little time to ponder over such philosophical things as 'Am I male ore female?' when your 10-day old infant is severely malnourished. To put in in perspective, if we suffered a nuclear war that resulted in the collapse of society with scarcity of resources and fighting other humans so we could survive, making sure our gender identity is affirmed would be the last thing on our minds.

Developed societies allow for basic survival needs to be fulfilled so much more easily that we end up trying to find other things to keep us occupied. For example boredom does not exist in the 3rd-world. Boredom is a side-effect of our society's way of living. If you had to hunt your own food, track it for several hours, you defiantly wouldn't get bored. The same thing applies to TG, the lack of natural inhibitions allows that side of us to become exposed. Our society also carries a huge emphasis on gender binary, with men and women looking significantly different to one another through clothes and style, further inflaming TG. If you compare this to an African Tribe, though women and men have different roles within the tribe to one another, their perceived differences aren't all that great. If you look at the Maasai for example they all wear the same thing. There is no immediate difference between the two sexes.

TG is mostly a problem of the Westernised world, remember to bear that in mind when looking at these figures.

Kathryn Martin

11-07-2010, 06:47 AM

TG is mostly a problem of the Westernised world, remember to bear that in mind when looking at these figures.

Is this your opinion or do you have any hard evidence for this? Do you really think we wouldn't be transsexuals if we had to hunt our food? And that we are because we are bored? Gender identity issues, two-spiritedness has always been a part of any culture. Is it your view that a two spirited person of a native culture maybe became TG/TS because he didn't hunt, stayed with the women and got bored? Sorry but your post re-affirms all of the things that general society says about us, that our condition is curable, that if we only worked hard enough we wouldn't have time to think about it. Maybe if we all got sent to re-education camps with severe survival training we would all come back with the right perspective on our silly illusion of being a woman, or die and that would be fate in your view?

The lack of inhibition? Most of us spend a lifetime hiding and suffering.

Wow, I am stumped and wondering what you are trying to say and achieve with your post.

Hope

11-07-2010, 07:27 AM

TG is mostly a problem of the Westernised world, remember to bear that in mind when looking at these figures.

Have you ever heard of India? Iran? Thailand? Or are you counting these among the "westernised world?"

Just because some people don't live in places, environments, or ways that allow them to become fully actualized, well adjusted human beings because they are constantly struggling to secure the foundational levels of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - it does not imply that how we suffer is a product of our own success at securing what is needed to provide for our basic needs. Life would not be better for us if we could just be less comfortable. We would not be better, happier, more well rounded people if we had to work harder and had less time for introspection self awareness and culture.

I am also a bit stumped.

Melody Moore

11-07-2010, 07:45 AM

TG is mostly a problem of the Westernised world, remember to bear that in mind when looking at these figures.

Has it really Kokoro?

I beg to differ.... Transgender people such as Hermaphrodites have been described in detail in ancient Greek Mythology (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphroditus). Effeminate men are also described in the Bible, Fa'afafine have been a part of Samoan culture for centuries, as to with the fakafefine in Tonga. Ojibwe or a Two-spirited person whose body hosts a masculine & a feminine spirit are held in high regard in North American Indian culture. In Thailand, transsexuals are referred to as Kathoey. Australian scholar of sexual politics in Thailand by the name of Peter Jackson says the term "kathoey" was also used in pre-modern times to refer to intersexuals. The usage of the term "kathoey" was changed in the middle of the twentieth century to include cross-dressers.

So its evident that transsexualism has been around long before it was diagnosed in the 19th century. Modern diagnosis started in the 1880s in Germany when a German doctor, Richard von Krafft-Ebing began studying the prevalence of gender diversity in the homosexual population. He created the term, "gynandry" to describe a form of pseudo hermaphroditism.

Have you ever heard of India? Iran? Thailand? Or are you counting these among the "westernised world?"

I forgot to mention Iran & India... so thanks for that Hope.

7sisters

11-07-2010, 09:28 AM

Transgenderism exists everywhere in every nation. Even tribes that have been virtually untouched by so-called civilisation, have members who are transexuals. As medical knowledge goes today, TS seems to be caused by a hormonal change when the child is in utero.
In my humble opinion, I think that even before food clothing shelter is a priority, a sense of self ... ones physical body, is the most powerful thing.
In ancient cultures, TG &TS people were not looked over. Instead they were a very valued part of their communities. It is so tragic that it took us getting 'civilised' to become savages... just look at how we treat TS people. Shameful. It was not like this in the past. Joan of Arc in Europe, the Aravani community in India... they were revered.
Take a look at this really good anthropological article/shoot.

http://artblart.wordpress.com/2010/07/24/review-sistagirls-by-bindi-cole-at-nellie-castan-gallery-melbourne/

MelodyN, have you heard of Ms Bindi Cole from Australia?

Also there is a tribal community of FTMs amongst the indigenous people of Australia. I lost the article. I would appreciate any help from any of our posters if they can help me find more information on this relevant issue.

Melody Moore

11-07-2010, 09:49 AM

MelodyN, have you heard of Ms Bindi Cole from Australia?

Also there is a tribal community of FTMs amongst the indigenous people of Australia. I lost the article. I would appreciate any help from any of our posters if they can help me find more information on this relevant issue.
Yes I have heard of Bindi Cole & I should have mentioned there are also a number of transgendered aboriginals & islanders also living here in Cairns.

Kokoro

11-07-2010, 02:33 PM

Okay, let me clear a few things up about my previous post.

I'm not saying Transsexuality doesn't exist outside of modern societies which I termed 'Westernised' but intended to mean 'not existing in political and technological poverty'. I know they're not real descriptions but It's hard to bunch the various modern societies and cultures into a single umbrella term without seeming either big-headed or insensitive. I've always believed, even before coming to terms with my own gender disphoria, that gender exists as a spectrum and not as a binary. To say this doesn't exist in less developed areas of the world would just be silly, as it would remove an aspect of humanity from those people.

My point is that it isn't so immediately obvious as in our cultures due to the blurring of gender perceptions and roles in these cultures, as well as the concept of ones own identity being very low down on list of priorities when faced with other distractions. You may feel it in yourself, but as all of us here can attest we don't always practice it. Even in the ancient cultures people have given examples of, they are still further along the civilization line than people who may live in communities of no more than 100 people, if that.

My point is that the feelings of sentiment and pity towards these people being transgendered is misguided in the way that they are unable to flourish as one sex or another or receive treatment for it. Most likely, few will exhibit typical TG tendencies and if they do it most likely falls within the normal bounds of their own culture, compared to our own societies hyper masculine and femininity. It's a matter of perspective. The rigid structure of our society brings out our feelings faster and more intensely than it would in other societies. It is nothing to do with whether an individual is TG or not as it is dependent upon the society as to how it menifets.

There are more important things than bringing treatment for gender disphoria to the 3rd world such as feeding the thousands that die of hunger every hour of every day.

I apologise if I've offended anyone as I realise I've dug a bit of a hole in my previous post but I hope this has cleared up a few things.

Hope

11-07-2010, 11:52 PM

I'm not in any way offended, but I am still at a loss as to what you are suggesting.

Yes, gender markers (though I would argue not gender itself) are culturally conditioned, but generally generallygender roles in less industrialized societies are more distinct, not less distinct than what we encounter.

And there are LOTS of examples of trans-people in less industrialized societies... in societies that are much more rigid in their gender roles and expectations than we are.

Is clean water, a reliable food supply, and a safe place to call home a bigger priority than resolving one's gender issues? They are more immediate for sure - but if you read some of the experiences of many of the girls here who literally contemplated, or attempted to kill themselves because of this issue, I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that a lack of food or water is significantly more important than resolving gender dysphoria - lacking either any of them can lead to death.

ReineD

11-08-2010, 01:23 AM

Kokoro, forgive me for speaking on your behalf, but I think you're referring in part to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs). Simply put, in Maslow's theory people are not free to pursue self-actualization when 100% of their energy is spent on sheer survival. This would not mean there would be fewer transsexuals, but rather there would be fewer transsexuals able to pursue transition if their larger concern was to find food and shelter.

The page I've linked to also provides the criticisms of the theory.

7sisters

11-08-2010, 05:24 AM

I'm not offended. I'm now a bit confused. But that's okay. Yes I remember Maslow from the Pscyhology class.

Melody Moore

11-08-2010, 09:17 AM

If you compare this to an African Tribe, though women and men have different roles within the tribe to one another, their perceived differences aren't all that great. If you look at the Maasai for example they all wear the same thing. There is no immediate difference between the two sexes.

TG is mostly a problem of the Westernised world, remember to bear that in mind when looking at these figures.

Hi again Kokoro

First of all Im not offended & I understood what you were getting at from your first statements - and I understood that in some cultures there is little difference between the two sexes by the way that they dress. But you said it was mostly a problem of the western world which very clearly its not. You will find that the transgendered members in 3rd world tribes & villages carried out roles & duties of women, some boys were raised as girls to perform female roles in some cultures... especially the Fa'afafine from Samoa & the fakafefine in Tonga. See this video for a good example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YTlMfJZpFw

Use the links below see the complete documentary that will show you that being transgender is not mostly a problem of the western world

The transgender taboo (Part 1 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6zRTX3kT-8&feature=related)
The transgender taboo (Part 2 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OPpjjgIz_E&feature=related)
The transgender taboo (Part 3 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OPpjjgIz_E&feature=related)
The transgender taboo (Part 4 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YTlMfJZpFw)
The transgender taboo (Part 5 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGTKXlkiFqs&feature=related)

Kokoro

11-08-2010, 09:51 AM

Thanks ReineD, that's exactly the kind of thing I was referring to though I've never heard of Maslow before since I'm not a Psychology student.

ReineD

11-09-2010, 10:27 AM

With such numbers one can imagine the family we inherit and the freak of nature suddenly becomes a mainstream occurrence.

This is from MelodyM's video link, "The Transgender Taboo, part 2", at 1.48 minutes:

"Thailand has a larger transvestite/transgender population than most countries in the world. It is estimated that up to 170,000 Kathoeys live in Thailand. Some are crossdressers. Others modify their bodies using female hormones or sex change surgery."

Those figures corroborate what you heard, Alexia. The population of Thailand is just over 67 million, which translates into a TG percentage of .002, a ratio of 2 to 1,000. If, say, half are TS, then there would be 1 to 1,000. But, this is a country that has, according to this documentary, the largest TG population in the world. So, if the TG population in the Western world is even a percentage of that, whether it is 1 to 2,000 or 1 to 10,000, although it is encouraging to know that the figures are not 1 in 30,000, there is still no indication that trans will ever be mainstream. :sad:

Melody Moore

11-09-2010, 05:33 PM

ReineD

11-09-2010, 06:20 PM

I don't know where Alexia got her figures (Alexia, can you post a link? :)), but she did say this was a recent medical release.

I looked up info on the videos you posted, and they were first broadcast on Okto (a Singapore news channel), only a year ago. I don't imagine Thailand's population has changed all that much since then.

Prior estimates for TSs have been 1 in 30,000 and I see that newer estimates are much higher. But, even 1 in 1,000 (per Alexia's post and per the estimated population in Thailand), or 1 in 2,000 (intersex in Australia per your post), it's not enough for it to be mainstream. To put it in perspective, in a high school comprised of 2,000 students, only one would be intersex (per your Australia figures), or in Thailand, only 4 would be transgender, and this figure includes both crossdressers and transsexuals.

I wish the numbers were higher. It would make it easier on everyone, including the GGs who are supportive of their TG SOs. But I hate to see people thinking that 1:1,000 is enough to be mainstream, and it's just a question of time before everyone else "gets it". It's going to take a lot more push, including changing laws, in order for that to happen.

Inna

11-09-2010, 07:53 PM

I have gotten the figures from my Dr. at my first session, she seems to be quite on the cutting edge of gender therapy and research. Anyhow, mainstream it will never be and perhaps because of that some more advanced (not newer) civilizations of the past valued our sensuality and knowledge of masculine and feminine combined. However one person out of a thousand seems an often occurrence considering an average busy city street having a traffic count of roughly 20k-40k cars per day. Just stand on the corner and wave cause mathematically you just witnessed 20 to 40 transgender persons go by :-)

Kathryn Martin

11-09-2010, 08:22 PM

I found this here (http://etransgender.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=405)

"Firstly, it has been recently estimated (Brook, J., Sex Change Industry a Boon to Small City. New York Times, November 8, 1998 ) that the number of American's living in a gender other than the one they were assigned at birth ranges from 50,000 to 75,000, and that an estimated 28,000 Americans have had sex-change surgery. Statistics indicate that about 75% of these will be Male-to-Female (MTF). In the UK the Home Office suggests that there's up to 2,000 post operative women, while Press for Change perhaps more realistically believes there's at least 5,000 already post-op transsexuals (presumably about 4,000 being women), with some 1,000 new cases a year appearing. In Germany it's been estimated that there are about 8,000 transitioned women (including 2-3,000 post-operative), add in the rest of Europe and a total (America + Europe) of 100,000 pre- or post-SRS transitioned women looks to be a very reasonable estimate.

Secondly, one recent estimate is that 2000 transsexual surgeries are performed annually in the United States. Add in Canada, England (148 male-to-female SRS operations were reported by the NHS and Health Insurance companies in 1997, this figure excludes many private self-financed ops), Western Europe (e.g. there were about 100 MTF SRS ops a year in Germany during the 1980’s) and surgery performed elsewhere (particularly in Thailand) and it can be reasonably assumed that at least 4000 European & American girls are now having MTF sex reassignment surgery every year. This has been happening in ever increasing numbers for over 40 years, so allowing for deaths there must now be in total more than 50,000 post-SRS women in these regions (this fits reasonably well with a published estimate of 6,000-10,000 in the USA in 1988, and the 1998 figure mentioned above of 28,000). To this can be added a large number of transitioned pre-SRS transsexual’s (including the vast number of “she-males” - an estimated 2,000 in Paris alone!). A grand total of about 100,000 transitioned (pre or post-SRS) transsexual women is therefore again a very plausible estimate, indeed perhaps too low. "

I think this important information. The numbers on which this is based are actual numbers of SRS. From those numbers you can extrapolate the number of TS who don't have SRS etc.

(http://etransgender.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=405#ixzz14q1svCSZ)

Melody Moore

11-09-2010, 08:28 PM

Reine, because of political correctness in countries like Australia, USA & the UK the exact numbers of transgendered people living in our societies might not be ever known. I looked into this on the Australian Bureau of Statistics (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abs.gov.au%2F&rct=j&q=australian%20bureau%20of%20statistics&ei=me_ZTOfnI8fQcd73qcMG&usg=AFQjCNHoTRc2RctmuB4MNka4MUwVYCnKrw&cad=rja) website and I found a question posted on their blog regarding the gathering of statistics of GLBTi community here in Australia, this was the reply posted by the ABS.

Hi Gina,

Thank you for feedback.

The Census does not collect information about people's sexual preferences,

but simply whether they are male or female. The Census does provide

information on relationships within households and provides some

information on same sex couple relationships, in addition to other

relationship types. We can confirm that the 2011 Census will again provide

this information.

I have heard from reliable sources there are more than 50 known transsexuals living in Cairns where I live, a city with a population of 164,000 people puting the ratio at 1 in 3200 here are transsexual. But I am also waiting on a phone call to see if I can get a more accurate number. I have been told my one of the girls who runs the local transgender support group she is getting new contacts all the time from people who believe they might be transgendered and living in our local community and haven't reached the point where they do identify as transsexual. I also believe that the numbers of TG/TS will surge once the Federal Government steps up its awareness campaign in 2011 after what I was told by my Federal member of parliament today, Mr Warren Entsch because this will help many who are still confined by their fears to come out.
(http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abs.gov.au%2F&rct=j&q=australian%20bureau%20of%20statistics&ei=me_ZTOfnI8fQcd73qcMG&usg=AFQjCNHoTRc2RctmuB4MNka4MUwVYCnKrw&cad=rja)

Kathryn Martin

11-10-2010, 07:17 AM

Melody Moore

11-10-2010, 07:32 AM

Thats so true Kathryn, while Im transitioning to be a female & I want to be accepted and respected as such, Im not ashamed of the fact I'm a transsexual female.

Lots of us to shun that title 'transsexual' and I cant say that I blame them for feeling that way because of the bigotry in society. However if we want things to change in the areas of better awareness & acceptance, then we must be prepared to stand up and be counted so the statistics can be gathered accurately to show how many of us there are out there in society. I know there are 50 known transsexuals living in Cairns, but how many more are there that wont identify themselves as such? We have no idea on the numbers who are Pre-transition and Post-op here.?

Inna

11-10-2010, 11:33 AM

When I started this thread and the statistical information I have included perhaps I didn't explain in full detail what that info meant. Dr. explained to me the latest understanding, by science, of the mechanism behind gender dysphoria. Not to get too technical but within the period of embryonic development, at first stages fetus has all the female characteristics later by the impulse mothers body releases appropriate chemistry which floods fetus and assigns further development of both body and brain. Sometimes because of medications, environment, sickness, previous abortions, miscarriage, or simply some misunderstood processes as well, fetus gets a bath of chemistry which renders body one sex and brain the other. Androgynous testosterone and similar hormones are the culprits. Science has gone as far as being able to test chromosomal map, genetic gender fingerprint and so it is fairly accurate to be able to decipher gender dysphoric trigger. We are still not using such testing with every newborn however times are near when it simply be a part of regular routine testing being performed now.
Interestingly Dr. also said that environmental aspects may be adding to this condition, when genetic research started roughly in 70s it was discovered that about 1000 genes were gender specific trigger when this study was performed 40 years later only 100 genes remained as gender specific trigger. Quite a change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, the estimate of 1 in 700-1000 gender dysphoric newborns is an estimate based on the newest medical sciences data involving body mind disconnect and encompasses all aspects of gender dysphoria and does not predict weather this individual will ever come to terms with transition or not. In fact perhaps for most it may never come to their own understanding that in fact they are gender dysphoric. Such as many don't know about their chromosomal make up even though XYY variation is said to affect 1 in 1000 males!

ReineD

11-10-2010, 04:22 PM

I also believe that the numbers of TG/TS will surge once the Federal Government steps up its awareness campaign in 2011 after what I was told by my Federal member of parliament today, Mr Warren Entsch because this will help many who are still confined by their fears to come out.

I hope so. It would also be helpful if the media could begin to incorporate transmen & transwomen in daily TV shows, movies, etc, and if more transmen/women in the public eye would advocate more strongly.

But, we're still only taking about TSs, which IMO are better accepted, or at least better understood than CDs or people who prefer to switch back & forth because they do not fit into the binary gender concept. The public becomes confused even more when a person presents a gender that is not clear cut or permanent either way. Even some transpeople have a hard time wrapping their heads around CDs, believing them to be TSs in denial. Also, society insists on thinking of the CDing as a fetish, unless the CDer is willing to forego his or her birth gender altogether. This is a dilemma in itself.

As to the mainstream, what numbers would it take for transness to be more pervasive? 1 in 50, or 1 in 100 maybe? Even this is low for mainstream IMO. But, it's difficult to determine this. Also, do you think that if all taboo were removed, there would be as many as 1 in 100 TSs?

Melody Moore

11-10-2010, 07:01 PM

Hi Reine

Yes it would be great if more trans-males & trans-females were in the public eye. Cross-dressers come in many flavours and there are many out
there in the public eye such as the drag-kings & drag queens, and other female impersonators that cross-dress because of an acting career.

I know drag queens because I use to host a drag show, but I quit the show and distanced myself from this group for a variety of reasons - I realised that I was far too different to a drag queen. These drag queens are homosexual males who are only part-time females when they are performing a show because they love to be the centre of attention. They love nothing better to be bitching about their rivals so many drag queens I know are drama queens. They have no idea really of what is actually involved to be a female. They dress ****ty & overdo their make up - their behaviour is nothing like a real female. I know a TS lady who is living with these drag queens and the really sad thing is she doesn't even see the bad influence they're having on her - as a result she doesn't blend in at all as a female because of the bad habits she is picking up by living with them she wonders why she is getting picked on all the time by the bigots in society?

Those that are into Transvestic fetishism hide away from the public more and their cross-dressing habits are more confined to the bedroom, so we won't really get to see these people very often. Some of the more brazen ones come out to partake in a GLBT event such as the Sydney Mardi Gras parade. I felt very embarrassed & shamed to even watch these guys (many of them gay) on TV during the live broadcast of the parade, because I've seen many of them even using dildos and simulating sex while parading themselves down the streets of Sydney while they are pretending to be a female. I know natal females who find their behaviour disgusting & embarrassing because of how they're trying to portray themselves as women. These public displays of perversity is the catalyst that breeds a lot of the bigotry that affects others who fall under the transgender umbrella & transsexuals like myself have to deal with being pigeon holed as a transgendered person with them.

Transsexuals distance themselves from these groups of CDer, especially drag scene & those into Transvestic fetishism because these groups do give the wrong idea to society about why we are transsexual. So is it any wonder why some transpeople have a hard time wrapping their heads around CDers?

Hope

11-11-2010, 05:38 AM

Prevalence should have nothing to do with something being tolerated, or valued in a society. And I hope that the trans community NEVER increases in prevalence. Openness and living without fear or shame, yes, prevalence, no.

I would bet that the number of people who go bungie jumping or hang gliding is rather small - and yet, most folks don't think that people who tie rubber bands to their ankles and jump off of bridges - on purpose - by choice - are weird or strange, or in need of psychiatric treatment.

Prevalence is not the correct angle to hit up when we talk about rights or bringing about an end to bigotry.

Kelly DeWinter

11-11-2010, 11:34 PM

Transsexuals distance themselves from these groups of CDer, especially drag scene & those into Transvestic fetishism because these groups do give the wrong idea to society about why we are transsexual. So is it any wonder why some transpeople have a hard time wrapping their heads around CDers?

Huuuuuuuuuhhhh ?????

Sometimes I'm not sure where these ideas come from. Mayby in Cairns Australia. How is someone going to know who is a Transsexual or a Crossdresser without a bodysearch or extensive questioning. In the United States these groups intermingle all the time. Who hasen't seen a Drag Show or gone to a gathering where the know 100% what 'category' everyone is.

As far as statistics, look at the past threads here on this subject. People post 'facts' or know some one who has 'read' of statitics that proport to show. or 'have it on authority.

We live in the age of the internet, If you have seen reliable statitics or authoratative articles. POST THE LINKS ! It would be great to be able to reat the statistics.

Show me the money, I mean links.

Kelly

Melody Moore

11-11-2010, 11:43 PM

Sometimes I'm not sure where these ideas come from. Mayby in Cairns Australia.
Its not just in Cairns, its all over Australia and if you were an Australian, then you could always join the
Australian Transsexual Support Network (http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/atsn/) where there is currently lots of discussion going on about this matter.

I don't think these sentiments are just confined to Australia either, quite a few
transsexuals on this forum have messaged me who feel the exact same way.

There are quite a few of us that are talking about pulling out of the GLBT community and uniting with the
intersex community because we share a biological medical condition and not a fetish or sexual orientations.

These other groups cause many intersexed & transsexual people to feel
embarrassed and ashamed to be pigeon holed with under the term transgender.

So in my part of the world this is definitely a fact!

Kelly DeWinter

11-12-2010, 12:02 AM

Danni Bear

11-12-2010, 12:13 AM

Its not just in Cairns, its all over Australia and if you were an Australian, then you could always join the
Australian Transsexual Support Network (http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/atsn/) where there is currently lots of discussion going on about this matter.

I don't think these sentiments are just confined to Australia either, quite a few
transsexuals on this forum have messaged me who feel the exact same way.

There are quite a few of us that are talking about pulling out of the GLBT community and uniting with the
intersex community because we share a biological medical condition and not a fetish or sexual orientations.

These other groups cause many intersexed & transsexual people to feel
embarrassed and ashamed to be pigeon holed with under the term transgender.

So in my part of the world this is definitely a fact!

Melody,

I don't know if it is withdrawing from CD's or if it is more pursueing a different fork of the TG path. As TS wether or not pre-op, post-op, or non-op our outlook is different in many respects than someone who is a CD. We know that we are women although nature and life try to tell us differently. A CD will present as a woman but for most that is all and will go back to being male until the need arises to present again. We on the other hand must put the male portion of ourselves away never to be heard from again. This in a lot of instances is a life perserving issue.
To all my CD sisters, this is not a putdown of you and the issues you face everyday,rather a response to a post about why some TS pull away from Crossdressing. Where you see dressing in female garments as CD,it is the exact opposite for us. It is not a case of passing or acceptance for us. It is life that we deal with everyday no matter where we go or what we do. There is no time that we aren't known as TS unless we move away from our homes,family and friends.

Danni

Melody Moore

11-12-2010, 12:16 AM

So you don't want to be 'pigeon' holed as being transgended. So you want a unique pigon hole of your own to be in ? I guess the question I have is , Why do you continually feel that a 'biological medical condition' means you have to constantly insist that everyone else is so wrong ? The wonderful thing about this forum, is that it's declared purpose is to unite rather then divide the Tg community.

You still have not provided data to back up your 'fact'

Kelly, I dont need to post any data to back myself up at this point, because I was giving a intersexual &
transsexual point of view here & not a cross-dresser's point of view about the umbrella term 'transgender'.

No offence is intended, but from what I know about you - you are a heterosexual male to female cross-dresser correct?
So how can you even hope to understand a transsexual or intersexual's point of view about being pigeon-holed with
others under the transgender umbrella? There are moves afoot right now to start a new advocacy group in Australia
that will unite both the intersex & transsexual communities to work with the Federal government on changing policies.
There is a couple of new websites that are going to be launched soon that will have all the data and facts for people
like you who don't understand our feelings or our very special medical needs.

Melody,

I don't know if it is withdrawing from CD's or if it is more pursueing a different fork of the TG path. As TS wether or not pre-op, post-op, or non-op our outlook is different in many respects than someone who is a CD. We know that we are women although nature and life try to tell us differently. A CD will present as a woman but for most that is all and will go back to being male until the need arises to present again. We on the other hand must put the male portion of ourselves away never to be heard from again. This in a lot of instances is a life perserving issue.
To all my CD sisters, this is not a putdown of you and the issues you face everyday,rather a response to a post about why some TS pull away from Crossdressing. Where you see dressing in female garments as CD,it is the exact opposite for us. It is not a case of passing or acceptance for us. It is life that we deal with everyday no matter where we go or what we do. There is no time that we aren't known as TS unless we move away from our homes,family and friends.

Danni

Thanks Danni, that pretty much nails it right on the head.

Kelly... I'm not saying that 'cross-dressing' wasn't part of my path to discovering I was a intersexed transsexual, but our needs & conditions are completely different, I cant go back to being a male and live with it ever again, where a CDer like you can. You might get dressed up & go out with your wife & her girlfriends for a night out on the weekends, then come Monday its back to work as a male, I have to fight my way past all the discrimination just to be accepted & get a job.

For you its more of a personal choice, for me it's more like a card I was dealt (a biological medical condition) that I have to try and live with. And I have to live full-time with the bigotry from society as a transsexual that is more associated with some of the more perverse types of transvestic fetishism that also co-exists under the Transgender umbrella , whereas these people can hide their CDing habits in their closet - I cant - I am who I am.

Also I take hormones where as most CDers don't, I am changing all aspects of my body, where a male CDer for example wants to keep using their male bits & have either gay encounters with other males or heterosexual relationships with women. I just want my whole body to match my mind and other physiological aspects of me that already are female. Many things already divide the TG community, but as things stand now its hard for transsexuals & intersexuals to gain acceptance & have our individual needs met when our conditions are not understood for what they really are.

Kelly DeWinter

11-12-2010, 01:22 AM

Kelly,
I dont need to post any data to back myself up at this point, because I was giving a intersexual &
transsexual point of view here & not a cross-dresser's point of view about the umbrella term 'transgender'.
It was just a request, it's easier to get your point accross when there is solid data, otherwise it's an opinion, not a fact.

No offence is intended,
None taken

but from what I know about you - you are a heterosexual male to female cross-dresser correct?
Yes

So how can you even hope to understand a transsexual or intersexual's point of view about being pigeon-holed with
others under the transgender umbrella?
Because I read posts here and other websites, I read a book each month on the TG community (Currently Helen Boyds second book), I talk to Doctors at Johns Hopkins (professionaly), I am active in the Baltimore TG community which includes (CD,TS and intersexed ), and the most important of all, I listen.

There are moves afoot right now to start a new advocacy group in Australia
that will unite both the intersex & transsexual communities to work with the Federal government on changing policies.
What group ? I really am interested.

There is a couple of new websites that are going to be launched soon that will have all the data and facts
What websites ? I think it would be a great idea.

for people like you who don't understand our feelings & our needs.
Oooch ! that really hurts, I guess I'm in a pigeon hole ! LOL

Please consider going back and extensively reading some of the privious threads on this site. Pay close attention to the life stories of a lot of the members here. A large number of the Transgender community start out as Crossdressers and decide to transition to become Transsexual. There are at a minimum 36 such stories on this site. (Search keyword, transition,transitioning,srs etc then read all posts by those members, you will see a progression)

Where would some Transsexuals without an inital crossdressing phase ?

Currently I subscribe to the philosophy that Gender is in the brain and sex is between the legs.

I understand that a persons gender identity is a complex interelation between brain makeup,dna,body chemistry,life experiences and spiritual beliefs. I understand the need for the TG community to pull togeather and to work toward common goals.

What I don't understand is the need of some to continue to fracture the TG community into smaller and small groups. Look how well thats worked for the religious community.

Mini rant:
What would I like to see ? I'd like to see is some posts from you in support of the TG community, and Crossdresser's. Reading some of your previous posts makes me feel as if you don't want to be associated with Crossdressers at all ? I and a lot of crossdressers spend years feeling ashamed because we did not understand why we did what we did. The tone of your posts bring back to me and others a feeling of shame. (And no, I don't dress for sexual gratification)
End of rant:

I apologize if I i've stepped on yours or anyones toes, but my size 12.5 heels sometimes do that.

I do love this community as a whole, regardless of where anyone is on the TG spectrum. It is by discussing things that we understand one another. It was not until I listened, read and pondered things that were posted here and in the books I read, that I became to understand, that I am Homotrangendis, sub species Crossdressux. (LOL, the last part is a pun)

Kelly

Danni Bear

11-12-2010, 02:11 AM

Kelly and Melody,

You are both right and are both wrong. Yes there are differences in how a CD'er and a TG/TS feel about many things. Never forget though all of us are in the same boat on more things than we are different. I wish that all could agree on everything all the time, but that will never happen. CD'ers have difficulty understanding TS/TG in the same way as one living it. TG/TS have problems understanding where CD'ers issues lie. This is not unusual for any segment of the population, be it differences in race,religon.or even heritage. It even carries over into the sexual preferences of different people. I could be wrong but looking at both of your posts in this thread, I can sense that both of you have felt that you have been backed into a corner and now need to defend your positions. Nothing could be further from the truth. All of us belong under this umbrella we call transgender, each learning from the other and sharing with others. No one has all the answers but together we can find some of them. Seperatly we all fail, only as one family can we succeed in bridging the abyss that seperates our community from the rest of society. This should be the ultimate goal of all who are members of our family. Be they GAY,LESBIAN,BISEXUAL,CROSSDRESSER,TRANSGENDER,TRAN SSEXUAL,DRAG QUEEN,or any other label that society can put on us.

Danni

charlotte_sp

11-12-2010, 04:23 AM

Prevalence is not the correct angle to hit up when we talk about rights or bringing about an end to bigotry.

Yes! Respect should not be conditional on how big your group is.

Seperatly we all fail, only as one family can we succeed in bridging the abyss that seperates our community from the rest of society. This should be the ultimate goal of all who are members of our family.

A bump for this sentiment!

Unfortunately, there is some bogus stuff that needs to be called out:

There are quite a few of us that are talking about pulling out of the GLBT community and uniting with the
intersex community because we share a biological medical condition and not a fetish or sexual orientations.

These other groups cause many intersexed & transsexual people to feel
embarrassed and ashamed to be pigeon holed with under the term transgender.

Transsexuals distance themselves from these groups of CDer, especially drag scene & those into Transvestic fetishism because these groups do give the wrong idea to society about why we are transsexual. So is it any wonder why some transpeople have a hard time wrapping their heads around CDers?

These are pretty disgusting sentiments. In the US (not sure about other places), cis people in the community did not (and some still don't!) support trans people using the exact same types of arguments as justification.

"We don't want to subvert the binary cisgender paradigm, we're the good kind of gender nonconformity! I mean, we look just like you, right? Not like those crazy transsexuals."

You are attacking transvestites for society's prejudices, and that is unfair and messed up.

Maybe I got it wrong though. Maybe being "embarrassed and ashamed" derives entirely from your own prejudice.

So how can you even hope to understand a transsexual or intersexual's point of view about being pigeon-holed with others under the transgender umbrella?

I get it. Transsexuals are the "good" kind of trans. Not those fetishistic "bad" trans people. /facepalm

Snark aside, I don't think this is a difficult concept. Since most people conflate cross-dressing and being transsexual, it is harder to convince those people to support things like including hormones under health insurance, etc.

I believe that people, yes, including cross-dressers (shock!), have no trouble understanding this reality.

I think you are having a comprehension problem here, so let me state it as concisely as possible:

Ostracizing members of your own community to achieve your goals is hypocritical BS.

Kelly DeWinter

11-12-2010, 09:04 AM

Kelly and Melody,

You are both right and are both wrong. Yes there are differences in how a CD'er and a TG/TS feel about many things.
Never forget though all of us are in the same boat on more things than we are different. I wish that all could agree on everything all the time, but that will never happen. CD'ers have difficulty understanding TS/TG in the same way as one living it. TG/TS have problems understanding where CD'ers issues lie. This is not unusual for any segment of the population, be it differences in race,religon.or even heritage. It even carries over into the sexual preferences of different people. I could be wrong but looking at both of your posts in this thread, I can sense that both of you have felt that you have been backed into a corner and now need to defend your positions. Nothing could be further from the truth. All of us belong under this umbrella we call transgender, each learning from the other and sharing with others. No one has all the answers but together we can find some of them. Seperatly we all fail, only as one family can we succeed in bridging the abyss that seperates our community from the rest of society. This should be the ultimate goal of all who are members of our family. Be they GAY,LESBIAN,BISEXUAL,CROSSDRESSER,TRANSGENDER,TRAN SSEXUAL,DRAG QUEEN,or any other label that society can put on us.

Danni

Danni,

This is my one point We (everyone here, including myself) are ALL TG or Transgendered, not just CD'er and TS. (Notice I dropped off the TG from TG/TS). (I think I'm going to get hammered for this statement).

Sorry, I get a little defensive when I percieve (rightly or wrongly) a post that fractures the community. Also 6 cans of Coca Cola in 4 hours dos'nt help.

Once again you are a voice of reason, I whole heartly agree and I'll get out of my corner.

Kaitlyn Michele

11-12-2010, 09:39 AM

Most transsexuals don't share Melody's prejudice.

Some do, most don't. There is no use arguing about it, the hypocrisy and ugliness of a worldview that says my way of being unique and different is better than your way is there for all to see..

the irony is that when you are guilty of the very thing you rail against, it undermines your credibility and sets you back......its galling to see how some folks project their shame and guilt issues onto others..pointing out that you feel shame and guilt because you are lumped in with "them" explicitly says that "they" have something to be ashamed and guilty about.....that is no different than the prejudice we get from others that feel we are lower life forms..

Kelly DeWinter

11-12-2010, 10:00 AM

This subject has been discussed many times and the answers were somewhere in between 1-2% of population for transsexuality. I have just come back from my first session with psychologist and PhD at that with an astounding new knowledge of the newest medical research conducted. As it appears one out of 700-1000 people is affected in some sort of gender flux, this number encompasses all the diversity of gender dysphoria from MtoF through FtoM but nevertheless an eye opening fact. With such numbers one can imagine the family we inherit and the freak of nature suddenly becomes a mainstream occurrence. With the society still embracing black and white view of gender we got a long way to go but with such knowledge the road ahead doesn't feel empty and alone but heart warming to the fact so many more people know how we feel even though they them selves don't admit to it.

Ok, lets pull the thread back on topic.

With the world population at around 6,881,078,502 that would mean 6,881,078 worldwide. (I'm thinking we could have our own nation ! Hmmmm Queen Kelly of Trangendia ? Nice ring don't you think ?)

In the US with a population of 310,690,326 that means 310,690 nationwide or an average of 6,213 per state. (or 282 per county in maryland)

Any thoughts ?

Melody Moore

11-12-2010, 10:12 AM

Most transsexuals don't share Melody's prejudice.
You will be surprised, maybe not on this forum they dont express it openly, but Ive seen lots of it elsewhere.

And I guess you don't know what its like to have grown up not knowing you were born intersexed and had parents that were suppose to
love you, but kept that secret from you. Also having a father that was one of the worst & most abusive bigots you could ever imagine. But
it hasn't just ended there - I've had to also deal with it in recent times as well, and also hear lots more bigotry in the past week on local
talk-back radio after Captain Bridget's story went to air last Sunday night. So is it any wonder why Im so prejudice now in my views
along with quite a few other Australian Transsexuals? Please, just walk a mile in my shoes before you condemn me for distancing myself
from unfavourable elements in the transgender community that only make life even more difficult to deal with. Maybe I'm wrong & maybe
the bigots are right so maybe I should just give up trying to help others like me & end my life now eh? :(

sandra-leigh

11-12-2010, 10:47 AM

I don't know what the prevalence of gender dysphoria is, but when I look around the city I live in, it appers to be higher than 1 in 10000.

I know some people have moved to the city I live in because it is more CD / TG / TS friendly than where they were from, so there is some degree of "self-selection" increasing the population in my city.

Our CD/TG social club fluctuates in membership, usually around 40 or so registered by the end of our year. Typically about 15 per year do not renew, with the membership slowly climbing higher through the year. With that turn-over, the number of people who are now or used to be members of our club is, I would say, at least 100. There are others who are known to us or who have contacted us but who never join -- whether due to not feeling the need, or due to shyness or fear, or due to work / study / family commitments, or due to not being able to "sneak out" to meetings.

The local Transgender Day of Remembrance event now routinely has over 100 participants, the majority of whom I do not know from the club. One of the main speakers last year was someone whom has been in the city for (if I recall) 4 years and yet whom I had never met or heard of before. Approximately 8-ish of our social club members attend (but I do not have a good mental estimate for the number of attendees who are past members of the club.)

There is a Two-Spirited group in the city with at least 15 members. Two-Spirited in the original sense of the phrase -- aboriginal people. (The English term "Two-Spirited" was invented in this city.)

There is a TS support group here that has 20-ish members even taking into account turn-over.

There is a community health clinic here with a "Trans-Health Unit" with two full-time staff. Until relatively recently it had TG/TS-specializing doctor one day a week, fully booked 6 weeks ahead, 1 time slot unbooked at 7 weeks out, 2 time slots unbooked at 12 weeks out. They recently hired a second doctor one day a week and are now booking 4 weeks out.

There is more than one gender therapist in town; the one I go to is typically has 1 slot available 3 weeks out, and a few available 4 weeks out, suggesting that she has on the order of 100 active patients (at $150 per hour).

The womens clothing stores I go to inform me that I am definitely not the only male-bodied customer; one of them specializing in taller clothing used the phrase "a lot" of male customers. It is difficult to translate that into prevalence though. High enough that stores I've never been to before are rarely surprised if I ask to try something on. (I do remember one clerk about 3 years ago being startled, but it turned out it was literally her first day on the job; the other two clerks didn't even raise an eyebrow.)

There are "alternative sexuality" and "fetish" events in the city every few months (usually at least 5 a year); it is not uncommon to see cross-dressers there who have never been part of our social club.

All in all, it seems quite likely to me that there is an absolute minimum of 250 people in this city with gender dysphoria to some degree, and probably the actual number is 1000 or more. The city population is 660,000: a 1 in 10,000 rate would suggest only 66-ish people in the city --but I've met more than that myself. 1 in 1000 would be 660, which is a figure I could not disprove but which probability theory suggests is too low (e.g., considering the number of patients for the doctors and therapists.) If I recall correctly, my gender therapist indicated she has seen "thousands" of patients (with an implication of 2000-3000), definitely over 1000. That's just people here who have sought therapy, which is something that I know I did not do promptly.

Perhaps 1% is higher than reality (e.g., 1% would suggest over 6000 affected people in this city, which I would not rule out), but 1 in 1000 seems too low to match the known facts for this city.

I have, in the past, seen significantly higher figures for cross-dressing, but the numbers I have seen have varied quite a bit and I do not have any links available at the moment.

Kelly DeWinter

11-12-2010, 11:05 AM

You will be surprised, maybe not on this forum they dont express it openly, but Ive seen lots of it elsewhere.
Where have you seen it ?

And I guess you don't know what its like to have grown up not knowing you were born intersexed and had parents that were suppose to
love you, but kept that secret from you.
Parent's sometimes make decisions for right or wrong. Forgiveness and reconcilliation go a long way towards emotional healing. Theapy really helps.

Also having a father that was one of the worst & most abusive bigots you could ever imagine.
Been there done that . Have the emotional and physical scars. We do have something in common !

But it hasn't just ended there - I've had to also deal with it in recent times as well.
Yes, your situation with your roommate is bad, and everyone hopes it will improve for you soon.

and also hear lots more bigotry in the past week on local talk-back radio after Captain Bridget's story went to air last Sunday night.
I saw the story, There were a lot of good things in that program, Her loving wife, the Military supports the GLTB community, that is awesome !

So is it any wonder why Im so prejudice now in my views along with quite a few other Australian Transsexuals?
The wonder is why are you prejudiced and venting on members of your own community. It sounds like you want a group called "Australian Transexuals against the World"

Please, just walk a mile in my shoes before you condemn me for distancing myself from unfavourable elements in the transgender community that only make life even more difficult to deal with.
Everyone here walks in those same shoes every day. There are hundreds of posts, where ALL members of the TG community, have suffered slights, insults and open hostility for just trying to buy clothes, to renting cars. The more you say you are different, the more you appear the same.

Maybe I'm wrong & maybe the bigots are right so maybe I should just give up trying to help others like me & end my life now eh? :(
Where was that ever suggested ?

7sisters

11-12-2010, 11:37 AM

You will be surprised, maybe not on this forum they dont express it openly, but Ive seen lots of it elsewhere.
:(

Hummm... noticed that too.
*No sorry it wasnt Raven who said it. I can't recall where I read it. Or maybe it was another forum*

Anyway just end this discussion. And lets get back to the figures and statistical data.

In government census, do they have a specification where you have to reveal your gender identity? I mean where do the doctors get their numbers?.

In Indian passports you have the option of ticking M or F or T. The Aravani / Hijra community wanted it as they are a socio-religious sect and wish to be ticking on the T. But non hijra transgender people will normally tick either M or F which is what they identify with and what the affidavit says. So governments here may not know how many by using the passport method of compiling data ...

how do your specific govenments reach the figuers? In mine there are 1.2 million Aravani. Some are TG some TS. Then there are also non hijra transexuals who just want to say male or Female. They dont want the T tag. The Indian population is 1,139,964,932 as per 2008 data.

How does your country collect the statistical data? We have door to door census. even in the villages. It will be completed in 2 years. But by then there will be new data that is required.

Melody Moore

11-12-2010, 11:57 AM

Queen Kelly of Trangendia ?
So you would like to think.... I'm well & truly over you and your holier than thou attitude.

If you think you have all the answers & you know everything there is to know about transsexualism & intersexuality
and how people like me are suppose to feel about some of the more perverse members in the transgendered community,
then go right ahead, I dont feel there is any need for me to burst your bubble, Im sure it will happen soon enough.

Hummm... noticed that too. Raven Kaldera wrote about it. Nice article on his site.

Here it is 7sisters: Dangerous Intersections: Intersex and Transgender Differences (http://www.ravenkaldera.org/intersection/DangerousIntersections.html)

Here is an extract from that article

I'm an intersexual, and I'm also transgendered. This puts me in a peculiar place with regard to community lines....straddling the border between the transgender community (at best in its adolescence) and the intersex community (still in its infancy). I have congenital adrenal hyperplasia, I was raised as a girl, and I have now lived five years as a man. When I took on the task of Intersex Liaison for a major American transgender organization, I figured that I was being assigned to heal the split between these two communities.

Instead, I'm finding myself doing frantic damage control between two groups who should be allies. The newest issue is whether or not transgendered people should be "allowed" to call themselves intersexuals, to claim that both groups are, for all practical purposes, the same, and should be combined into one big gender-transgressive group.

I disagree with this concept fairly strongly, while sympathizing with the ideas of those who push for it. I'll outline my reasons in a moment, but first let's discuss the reasons why, as IS liaison, I constantly get emails and letters from transgendered people asking, "Can you help me find out if I'm intersexed?" What most of them really mean, of course, is, "I hope I'm intersexed in some way, because then I'll have a legitimate biological reason for being transgendered that I can throw in the faces of my parents/relatives/boss/friends/spouse/kids/the mullahs/etc." It's as if, in some peoples' minds, being IS is more "real", and thus more legitimate, than being transsexual or transgendered.

Kelly DeWinter

11-12-2010, 12:20 PM

Melody;

Why get so steamed ? It was a small joke. If you like, you can be Queen ? Peace ?

I'll admit I'm a narciccist at heart.

I do not have all of the answers, heck I'm not even sure if I know the correct questions.

In fact, I share your opinion to a degree, reguarding some of the more ecletic views and practices in TG community. Some topics make my head spin and steam comes out my ears. I agree with you that some topics like "What color panties are you wearing" do not promote a positive picture of the TG community. I agree with you that going to a GLTB parade and seeing marchers with as* cheek cutouts in leather pants does not promote the community in a positive light. I wish there was a section of this board that was dedicated to Fetishists, then this group cold post there. I love the aspect of this board that provides a safe haven for GG's to post questions concering their spouses gender concerns.

But like it or not these people are a PART of the overall TG community, and WE collectivly as a community, have to deal with them, but in a loving, kind and considerate manner, after all they are people too. (Shades of Soylent Green and Christine O'Donnel !)

I do like bubbles, especially the large ones you can make with string on a summer day.

If you are Queen, can I be a Dutchess or a Baroness ?

Kelly

I just noticed this is my 666 post, is 666 still an evil number ?

Kelly DeWinter

11-12-2010, 12:28 PM

Hummm... noticed that too.
*No sorry it wasnt Raven who said it. I can't recall where I read it. Or maybe it was another forum*

Anyway just end this discussion. And lets get back to the figures and statistical data.
OK

In government census, do they have a specification where you have to reveal your gender identity?
Not on the most recent census. It was either M or F.

I mean where do the doctors get their numbers?.
Good question, There have been a number of Gender Studies over the years, I guess it depents on what questions you ask.

In Indian passports you have the option of ticking M or F or T. The Aravani / Hijra community wanted it as they are a socio-religious sect and wish to be ticking on the T. But non hijra transgender people will normally tick either M or F which is what they identify with and what the affidavit says. So governments here may not know how many by using the passport method of compiling data ...
Awesome, how do we get this in the us. Imagine the number of databases that would have to be changed, Y2K Panic all over again.

how do your specific govenments reach the figuers? In mine there are 1.2 million Aravani. Some are TG some TS. Then there are also non hijra transexuals who just want to say male or Female. They dont want the T tag. The Indian population is 1,139,964,932 as per 2008 data.

How does your country collect the statistical data? We have door to door census. even in the villages. It will be completed in 2 years. But by then there will be new data that is required.

What about countries like Thiland ? Is it the country with the highest percentage of TG by population ?

Melody Moore

11-12-2010, 12:33 PM

What about countries like Thiland ? Is it the country with the highest percentage of TG by population ?
I just wonder if Thailand would really be the highest population of TG if there wasn't so much bigotry in western countries.

Personally believe that if the bigotry didnt exist, then there would be a lot more TG & TS people coming out of the woodwork.

By the way Kelly, I don't ever want to be queen, I just want to be a loyal servant to the cause.

sandra-leigh

11-12-2010, 12:57 PM

Those that are into Transvestic fetishism hide away from the public more and their cross-dressing habits are more confined to the bedroom, so we won't really get to see these people very often.

That is in contradiction to an earlier thread in which you defined those who have not received an offficial diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria as being transvestic fetishists. I questioned you on that point at the time, but you chose not to reply.

In the social club I belong to, there might be some transvestic fetishists (in the sense of cross-dressing primarily for eroticism), but none of the members has ever indicated to me that that is their motivation. We do, though, have a noticable number of members who have seriously considered transitioning or have transitioned. Yes, we do have at least one member who almost always wears a short skirt -- but she is never flashy or "****y". The most flamboyant and risque club member, one who has done a fair number of "drag queen" shows, is now transitioning. Some of the quiet and sedate members seem likely to go 24/7 without transitioning. It is a big world, with lots of people who confound expectations.

Melody Moore

11-12-2010, 01:01 PM

That is in contradiction to an earlier thread in which you defined those who have not received an offficial diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria as being transvestic fetishists. I questioned you on that point at the time, but you chose not to reply.
By all means, please show me where I ever made that definition? because I am 100%
sure I never made any such statement. Maybe you are reading something out of context.

Here is my understanding of Transvestic fetishism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism)

Transvestic fetishism refers specifically to cross-dressing; sexual arousal in response to individual garments is fetishism. Occurrence of transvestic fetishism is uncorrelated to occurrence of gender identity disorder. A person with gender identity disorder may or may not choose to receive sex reassignment surgery. Most men who have transvestic fetishism do not have a problem with their assigned sex

Some male transvestic fetishists collect women's clothing, e.g. nightgowns, babydolls, slips, and other types of nightwear, lingerie, stockings, pantyhose, shoes, and boots, items of a distinct feminine look and feel. They may dress in these feminine garments and take photographs of themselves while living out their secret fantasies. According to the DSM-IV, this fetishism has been described only in men and, more specifically, only in men sexually attracted to women (heterosexual men).

There are two key criteria before a psychiatric diagnosis of "transvestic fetishism" is made:

1. Recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, urges, or behaviour, involving cross-dressing.
2. This causes clinically significant distress or impairment, whether socially, at work, or elsewhere.

Thus, transvestic fetishism is not diagnosed unless it causes significant problems for the person concerned.
.And please don't ever assume that I chose not to reply because if I did see your post I would have clarified that for sure. So maybe I just missed it

Rhonda Jean

11-12-2010, 01:22 PM

Reine,

I think you have to bear in mind the age of statistics, how long ago were those statistics gathered. Then you have to also consider the changes in Western society regarded the rate of transgenderism and the things that influence it, such as the advent of the internet, more information now available, better sexual health services & anti-discrimination laws the encourage more & more people to come out.

The population of Australia is 21 million, and intersexed births are meant to occur at a rate of about 1 in every 2000, that means that there is something like 10500 intersexed people living in here Australia based on that ratio, but the question is do all these people realise they are intersexed? The same can be said for transsexuals in Australia - does everyone who could be transsexual accept they are transsexual? or are they still sitting back suffering in silence and in fear of vilification if they came out? which seems to happen more in western societies where they often face lots of bigotry. My local support group gets lots of enquiries from transgendered or transsexual individuals but the much greater majority of these people still haven't fronted up to a support group meeting. So I believe that many are still repressed by fear.

But I believe that the numbers are on the rise, especially here in Australia since transgender awareness & acceptance, along with the laws and services are constantly being improved

I'm a little late to the party on this one, but it seems to me that this statement might support Kokoro's previous statement. I tend to agree with Kokoro. I can see the other side of the argument, but I think it comes down to a matter of not so much whether or not the "condition" exists in equal numbers all over the world, but certain segments of the world population having the time, resources, medical treatment, etc. to act on it, or even to reveal it.

I'll go one better, using myself as an example... In the U.S., even in my lifetime we have become more urbanized, more anonymous, more distanced from our families and our hometowns. I could prabably list a few other things, but the point is, if I still lived in the same medium-sized town where I grew up with my parents and brother and sister and all the family and friends I'd known my whole life, there's no way I'd be as out as I am now. I don't know where that's put me, statistically. Presumably (?), I'd still be as much of a cd as I am now, but without the manifestation of it, I'm not sure where I'd be counted (or who would count me). Are you still a crossdresser if you don't crossdress? Would the statistical prevalance of crossdressers be higher on Saturday night than on Wednesday at noon? This is getting too complicated for me.

I suppose I've reached and age where I don't really care how many other people do it (whatever the particular "it" happens to be). I'm not an activist nor an advocate. I'll accept that just by being out in public that I represent the TG (or whatever) community simply because of the fact that I may be the only one that many people I encounter have ever seen or interacted with. Maybe after meeting me they think we're a little less scary than they though previous. Maybe not.

ReineD

11-12-2010, 01:57 PM

Prevalence is not the correct angle to hit up when we talk about rights or bringing about an end to bigotry.

I agree. But, having numbers, or at least enough TGs out in public, and not just on the news or in the media, does make it concrete to the unenlightened masses. This helps with a more personal type of awareness, without which it is difficult to promote respect and support.

In fact, I share your opinion to a degree, reguarding some of the more ecletic views and practices in TG community. Some topics make my head spin and steam comes out my ears. I agree with you that some topics like "What color panties are you wearing" do not promote a positive picture of the TG community. I agree with you that going to a GLTB parade and seeing marchers with as* cheek cutouts in leather pants does not promote the community in a positive light.

I agree with this as well, but it's good to remember that the sexualization of femininity is often the way it begins with most everyone, especially during the teenage years. How quickly TGs get out of this phase depends on how many internal and external life barriers they face. I've gotten to know many CDs (or bi/dualgenders) here and in person and they either dress, or they're learning to dress to fit in. I suspect that the people who post in the panty threads when they first join don't stay in there for long, unless they're doing it tongue-in-cheek (no pun intended). :)

There's also a glam drag queen who lives in my area. Her getup during her shows is just as outlandish as the best of them, but I run into her at the grocery store sometimes. She looks like a soccer mom: jeans, sweatshirt, her hair loosely pinned up on her head, no makeup. Her stage appearance is just that ... a showgirl, just like the showgirls in Vegas. I should think that most people realize that drag queens are dressed like that just for show, and they don't walk around looking like that all the time.

As to Thailand having the largest number of TGs (170,000 combined CDs & TSs to a population of 67 million, which is 1:500, so possibly 1:1,000 TSs), I hate to think the producers of The Transgender Taboo would throw out those numbers without having conducted research, although it would be nice to know where they got the data. As far as I can tell, the documentary was released last fall at the Singapore news station, Okto, if anyone is inclined to dig deeper.

But, back to our discussion about mainstream, even though we all agree that we don't need a 30% or even a 10% TG population in order to bring general society to a healthy awareness, what percentage of out and about TGs do people here think it would take for the masses to get beyond their existing misconceptions, or not think "Oh, this is an odd one", when running into a TG on the street.

It's just an idle question, really, since there's no way to know. But I think it would take more than 1%, and I don't think we have 3 million TGs just here in the US. This would mean we'd have 400 in my town of 40,000. I've only just ever seen 3 or 4 and I've gone to just about every TG friendly venue there is. :sad:

sandra-leigh

11-12-2010, 02:28 PM

By all means, please show me where I ever made that definition? because I am 100%
sure I never made any such statement.

Unfortunately the interface I am using at the moment is not able to copy and paste the complete link to my reply about this point. It was post #45 in your thread "Can we please have a Photo & Video Gallery for Transsexuals".

At the time you perhaps thought you were only defining "true transsexuals", but DSM-IV only permits the line to be drawn between "Transvestic Fetishism" and "Transsexual" with no room for "Transgender". If you would not draw the boundary at that place, then you cannot rely on DSM-IV for the definition of "transvestic fetishism".

Kelly DeWinter

11-12-2010, 03:06 PM

Unfortunately the interface I am using at the moment is not able to copy and paste the complete link to my reply about this point. It was post #45 in your thread "Can we please have a Photo & Video Gallery for Transsexuals".

At the time you perhaps thought you were only defining "true transsexuals", but DSM-IV only permits the line to be drawn between "Transvestic Fetishism" and "Transsexual" with no room for "Transgender". If you would not draw the boundary at that place, then you cannot rely on DSM-IV for the definition of "transvestic fetishism".

Dang don't you just hate it when an old thread comes back and bites you in the Arse ! lol \

But in all fairness to Melody, I think everyone has the right to change their minds and clairify a previous statement. The idea that you can say or type something and then you have to hold that idea or opinion forever is ludicris. ....... but you have to click your heels three times while saying your name backwards if you do change your mind.

Melody Moore

11-12-2010, 07:35 PM

Kelly, I know what I said and the way my statement was meant to be interpreted, but I do believe in this case it has
been grossly mis-interpreted & taken right out of context. Here is the statement once again that Sandra was questioning.

What is a 'true transsexual'?.... someone who has been medically diagnosed as having Gender Dysphoria is a true transsexual if you are not diagnosed, then you cannot claim to be a transsexual. Cross-dressing on the other hand is most often 'transvestic fetishism' and is a completely different condition which may also occur with transsexualism.

[...]If you are somewhere in between being a cross-dresser & transsexual & trying to work out where you are in the transgender spectrum, then I believe the much more appropriate label would be 'transgendered' - not transsexual. because these transgendered individuals have not been properly diagnosed with Gender DysphoriaThe DSM-IV defines the Symptoms for Gender Identity Disorder (http://allpsych.com/disorders/sexual/genderidentity.html) as follows:

A strong and persistent identification with the opposite gender. There is a sense of discomfort in their own gender and may feel they were ‘born the wrong sex.’ This has been confused with cross-dressing or Transvestic Fetishism (http://allpsych.com/disorders/paraphilias/transvestite.html), but all are distinct diagnoses.I thought my statement was clear enough, but evidently it wasnt... if you have NOT been assessed were NOT diagnosed, then I said the more appropriate label would be transgendered... So I was actually making room for being transgendered. But was also making a statement about what defines a 'true-transsexual' which from what I understand is someone who HAS been assessed & HAS been diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder.

The DSM-IV clearly defines cross-dressing that has been diagnosed as Transvestic Fetishism (http://allpsych.com/disorders/paraphilias/transvestite.html) & NOT a Gender Identity Disorder & that is the point I was trying to make here. So I don't think anything at all has come back to bite me on the arse at all here Kelly - I have simply stated a fact from the DSM-IV.

It's apparently obvious by the arguments here that some cross-dressers here have an issue with the label Transvestic Fetishism (http://allpsych.com/disorders/paraphilias/transvestite.html),
but if you have not been properly diagnosed, then that still does not mean that you are not transgendered or even a transsexual.

7sisters

11-12-2010, 09:20 PM

In India, the government is determined to bring as much education to the many communities that have been downtrodden. This is our initiative to uplift and empower them.
The govenment has the Quota system. So some seats in colleges are reserved for those who they wish to empower. I hear (but cannot find the article to CONFIRM) that even the aravani/ hijra community has seats reserved for them specifically. This is because many are economically challenged. Hence in this case, statistics are of tremendous importance so the quota seats can be established.

Kathryn Martin

11-12-2010, 10:53 PM

The DSM-IV defines the Symptoms for Gender Identity Disorder (http://allpsych.com/disorders/sexual/genderidentity.html) as follows:

A strong and persistent identification with the opposite gender. There is a sense of discomfort in their own gender and may feel they were ‘born the wrong sex.’ This has been confused with cross-dressing or Transvestic Fetishism (http://allpsych.com/disorders/paraphilias/transvestite.html), but all are distinct diagnoses.

But was also making a statement about what defines a 'true-transsexual' which from what I understand is someone who HAS been assessed & HAS been diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder.

In my view it is an incredibly dangerous thing to rely on a manual which saw it's last revision in 1994. That defines transsexualism, crossdressing and transvestism as mental disorders. Homosexuality was defined as a mental disorder until it was finally dropped from the DSM 4 in 1979.

Current trends for the 2012 revision as DSM 5 intend to characterize all transgender people as mentally ill and suffering from autogynephilia or autoandrophilia which groups transgenderism with other philias (that is being sexually attracted to in an unhealthy way) such as necrophilia, pedophilia, ureophilia, zoophilia.

Transsexualism is not "a sexual obsessive love of the image of oneself as a woman" or "a sexual obsessive love of the image of oneself as a man". Neither is crossdressing or transgenderism. I don't disagree with you that if it is simply fetishistic presentation it is not something some of us want to identify with. But that is true of society in general. If you look at the way men and women present in the club scene, I would ask the same question: is this really the image you want to project. But it is not a mental illness.

I have no need to be "diagnosed" by anyone as a transsexual. It is a meaningless validation that appears to give legitimacy for being weird. Essentially, it says I am ill, I can't help it, an expert told me that this is so, and so you have to accept me as such. We are not suffering from a condition. We are an expression of human diversity both biologically, emotionally and spiritually. That this is not always easy and is definitely always a huge challenge. Because of this a consequential result may be enormous human suffering through depression, anxiety and other things. But these are circumstantial and not an underlying mental illness.

As long as we need outside validation for our diverse natures we will hinder ourselves in becoming part of the societies we live in.

Inna

11-12-2010, 11:18 PM

Ok ladies (and gents if involved in conversation) I am getting some idea of how our and in fact all communities work. We are all striving for the same yet because of our own demons, pain, guilt and circumstances we tend to miss, twist, and make the quest our own and shun any one with slightly different view. Love is in the center of our quest and our strive to understand leads to egocentric tendencies and one way streets.
We must do everything we can to allow society to view us as normal, loving, breathing individuals. If just to advocate for gay rights in the casual conversation or educating about clinical studies in transgenderism. I feel that as a community, if we press our issues too hard, we have danger of becoming fanatical about our ideals and sometime our agenda becomes one sided.
I always found letting go of illusive control and belief empowering and freeing.

In love lie the truth, and it is paramount that we show the world our spirit.

ReineD

11-13-2010, 12:44 AM

It's apparently obvious by the arguments here that some cross-dressers here have an issue with the label Transvestic Fetishism (http://allpsych.com/disorders/paraphilias/transvestite.html),
but if you have not been properly diagnosed, then that still does not mean that you are not transgendered or even a transsexual.

Some crossdressers dress for fetish reasons. But not all of them do. It can be just a phase, especially in the beginning. I'd even venture to guess that most don't, at least, not once they've accepted they are CDs. As to whether CDs consider themselves to be TG or not, many are reluctant to label themselves as such because they believe that being transgender means they are TS, which they don't identify with.

Crossdressers have issues with being told they are transvestic fetishists for the same reason that TSs resent being told their gender dysphoria is paraphilic unless they are homosexual.

While we're on the subject, this is the definition for Transgender: An umbrella term for people who do not conform or identify with the gender expectations associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. Also, people who feel the binary gender system is an incomplete description of who they are.

Melody Moore

11-13-2010, 04:58 AM

While we're on the subject, this is the definition for Transgender: An umbrella term for people who do not conform or identify with the gender expectations associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. Also, people who feel the binary gender system is an incomplete description of who they are.
Reine, I am fully aware of that, but until a condition is properly diagnosed, then transgender is the most appropriate label to use is it not?

Kaitlyn Michele

11-13-2010, 09:22 AM

the appropriate term is undiagnosed.

diagnosis is a nebulous concept in our world. so the terms and labels that get used have a different meaning than in the typical medical world.

I was "diagnosed" and I beleived the diagnosis, or better put, i wanted to beleive the diagnosis and that was a huge mistake.. i didn't let my next therapist do a diagnosis... i told her what i was and she helped me achieve my goals.

i have changed how i view the labels after 18 months of transition and learning how to pass in the real world...i have gone through so many iterations in my head about what am i or what each term means that my head spins..

i went through a phase where i felt that rigid labels were important and defining..and its a good arguement that we need the labels or some kind of system to help understand each other and to help others understand us...
but for transsexual women, its an IDENTITY CRISIS... and so when labels are applied they can be very hurtful and cause more problems than solving them...getting a label says this is who you are.....that's a bigger deal

getting told your cancer is stage 2 or stage 4, or a specific type impacts alot of things and helps doctors know how to best treat your condition.. being "diagnosed" as a transsexual presumably helps people move on in life, and in some cases i'm sure it does, but because being transsexual is something that you ARE, and not a disease or a disorder you have , it has much more meaningful implication to the person...having your identity subject to someone's interpretation is not acceptable to me...especially when its often driven by incompetent and corrupt politicians and bureaucrats that write things like the DSM ...

its similar to the concept of some transwomen demanding to be thought of as simply a woman. do you think you can get your doctor to "diagnose" you as a woman?

Me:"I'm a woman"
Doctor:"sorry, your diagnosis is autogynephelic with gender deprivation anxiety disorder...it says so right here in this book"
Me: "F YOU"
..and i live happily ever after..

Kelly DeWinter

11-13-2010, 10:52 AM

if you have NOT been assessed were NOT diagnosed, then I said the more appropriate label would be transgendered... So I was actually making room for being transgendered. But was also making a statement about what defines a 'true-transsexual' which from what I understand is someone who HAS been assessed & HAS been diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder.

The DSM-IV clearly defines cross-dressing that has been diagnosed as Transvestic Fetishism (http://allpsych.com/disorders/paraphilias/transvestite.html) & NOT a Gender Identity Disorder & that is the point I was trying to make here. So I don't think anything at all has come back to bite me on the arse at all here Kelly - I have simply stated a fact from the DSM-IV.

Melody, you again are incorrect, According to the links you posted, the cct of cross-dressing is a symptom of the Psyciatric Disorder of Transvestic Fetishisim 'To be considered diagnosable, the fantasies, urges, or behaviors must cause significant distress in the individual or be disruptive to his or her everyday functioning." What you are clearly misunderstanding, is that a proprtinatly large number of Crossdressers do not find cross-dressing to be disruptive to his or her everyday functioning and crossdressing is not related to sexual arousal , therefor they are not Transvestic Fetisists, I would further submit that it is the people who encounter a TG (umbrella emphisis to include CD) and find they have 'significant distress in the individual or be disruptive to his or her everyday functioning' are considered Homophobic.

It's apparently obvious by the arguments here that some cross-dressers here have an issue with the label Transvestic Fetishism (http://allpsych.com/disorders/paraphilias/transvestite.html),
Yes a proportinatly large number do have an issue with the label, because a proprtional number of Crossdressers have accepted the Lable Crossdresser to mean something other then the symptom of a Mental Disorder.

but if you have not been properly diagnosed, then that still does not mean that you are not transgendered or even a transsexual.
if you are not diagnosied , you can be anything you want , Transgendered, transsexual, a doorknob, a block of ice, a barbie doll. etc

Transsexual , Transgendered are not defined or recognised as even existing within the DSM-IV parameters (Look though the site) According to the DSM-IV you would be treated for GID or TF through counciling or psychotherapy, but never surgery.

To Quote
'Mental Health Professionals use this manual when working with patients in order to better understand their illness and potential
treatment and to help 3rd party payers (e.g., insurance) understand the needs of the patient. The book is typically considered the ‘bible’ for any professional who makes psychiatric diagnoses'

Basicly the only thing the DSM-IV guide is good for is to give doctors a billing code to submit to insurers so that they can get paid.

Is',nt it interesting the number of people who 'cure' themselves by accepting their dressing as normal without having to be diagnosied or having surgery ?

Kelly DeWinter

11-13-2010, 11:05 AM

Some crossdressers dress for fetish reasons. But not all of them do. It can be just a phase, especially in the beginning. I'd even venture to guess that most don't, at least, not once they've accepted they are CDs. As to whether CDs consider themselves to be TG or not, many are reluctant to label themselves as such because they believe that being transgender means they are TS, which they don't identify with.
This is the crux of why the DSM-IV need to be revised. It's to0 narrow in it's definitions

Crossdressers have issues with being told they are transvestic fetishists for the same reason that TSs resent being told their gender dysphoria is paraphilic unless they are homosexual.
Bingo !

While we're on the subject, this is the definition for Transgender: An umbrella term for people who do not conform or identify with the gender expectations associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. Also, people who feel the binary gender system is an incomplete description of who they are.

Reine as usual, you cut to the heart of the matter. You must have a copy paste file for this topic. LOL

Karen564

11-13-2010, 02:51 PM

It's just an idle question, really, since there's no way to know. But I think it would take more than 1%, and I don't think we have 3 million TGs just here in the US. This would mean we'd have 400 in my town of 40,000. I've only just ever seen 3 or 4 and I've gone to just about every TG friendly venue there is. :sad:

You'd be surprised how many there really are...
You may be seeing or working with one of us every day & never know it.....For roughly the past 20 years, more & more have transitioned at a much younger age which makes it just about impossible to know they were born male or female, where as for myself transitioning at an older age can be pegged, but even then, only if you know exactly what to look for & had prior knowledge about transsexuals.
Heck, I've meet some that I never would of guessed in a million years to be TS until they told me...and I'm very in-tuned to things like this......It's just that many of us don't hang around at these TG venues because we don't need to anymore....why would or should we anyway..since it's way too limiting.

Just saying.............., We are around & walking among you & appreciate many women that are just as accepting like yourself, Thanks so much !........:hugs: