Surge in Intersex/TG & TS Numbers - Something in the food & water perhaps? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Melody Moore

11-13-2010, 08:55 PM

Yesterday I visited a good friend Kristy who is also transsexual female & like myself was born intersexed (true-hermaphroditism), Kristy's partner Mel who is about to finish her degree in psychology with honours shared some of the latest information she was given two days ago at a training seminar she attended about intersexuality. So we all had the most bizarre & intriguing discussion about the circumstances about our unusual birth defects & the very bizarre similarities I found out now that I do share with my good friend Kristy.

The conversation we had has prompted Mel to invite us along to her next training seminar into Intersexuality because of a very unusual set of circumstances that Kristy & I both share.

Over the past week or so, Kristy & I have been meeting up & talking very openly about the bizarre similarities in our bodies & very abnormal genitalia. Kristy has very similar scarring as me on the scrotum, which we believe is some type physical evidence of us both being born intersexed. Both of us appear to have once had a divided scrotum with labia & vaginal opening as well as male genitalia. Both of Kristy & I are very androgynous in our physical appearance with wider than normal hips for guys, we also both have small female looking hands & feet and most ironically enough we both had female breast prior to starting Hormone Therapy.

We have talked also at lengths over the past week about the struggles we have had right throughout our life with gender dysphoria, trying to fit in as males with our peers and the feelings about our bodies never being right.

Yesterday I also found out that Kristy was also born in the same city as I was - Brisbane in SE Queensland during the 1960s - I was born in 1962 in the Mater Children's Hospital & Kristy was born 4 years later in 1966. Kristy is not sure if she was born in the Mater Children's Hospital but I suspect she was, so she is now going to make some enquiries with her mother to find out. Kristy's doctors have also made attempts to get access to her birth records, but apparently ran into the same dead-end I did when I made a request to the Mater Children's Hospital earlier this year for access to my own birth records under the Freedom of Information act. I got a reply from the MCH informing me that my birth records also have been destroyed.

Both of our parents were living in the Brisbane area before we were born during the 1960s. Inland from Brisbane there large agricultural basin that supports the region as well as the area is the water catchment area for the city of Brisbane.

Mel told us that she also found out yesterday at her training seminar that there is research now being conducted by the University of Queensland into why there has been a surge in the number of intersexed/transsexual & transgendered births in the region, and to see if there is any correlation of this surge with the food and water sources in the area. Obviously there is some type of research is looking very closely at the use of xenooestrogen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen) in food production in the region. Here is a link to a topic of interest by University of Queensland into how Xenoestrogens are transferred to a foetus through the human placenta (http://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:214667), but that is only one example of the interest with UQ into this topic, there is lots of interest into intersexuality, transsexualism & transgender issues on that website of you care to search for it.

Here is an extract from another Thesis into Human health implications of exposure to xenoestrogens from food (http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/1391/1/thesis_fulltext.pdf)

6.1.4 Sexual differentiation
An early mammalian embryo has the potential to develop either male or female reproductive tracts with sexual differentiation in humans occurring at 5-8 weeks of gestation. At this time the SRY gene on the Y chromosome produces an enzyme that stimulates development of the testis. SRY is the acronym for Sex-determining Region of the Y chromosome. In the absence of this enzyme ovaries develop. Once testes have formed they secrete a peptide (anti-Mullerian hormone), which causes regression of the potential female reproductive tract, and formation of testosterone. Testosterone in turn stimulates development of the male reproductive tract (Tortora and Grabowski, 2003).
Things can go wrong. If a genotypic male fails to make testosterone, it will not masculinize and will develop as a phenotypic female (but with testes).

Conversely, if a genotypic female is exposed to sufficient testosterone she will be masculinized (but will have ovaries). The effect may be partial. Other organ systems such as the brain, liver and muscles are also “imprinted” during development and hence may be targets for xenoestrogens that perturb the normal endocrine profile at various stages of life. The greatest concern about environmental hormone disruptors arises from the possibility of irreversible effects of short term exposure at a critical period of life (WHO 2002a, 2002).

A number of genes are involved in the process of sex determination and differentiation and in a recent review article MacLaughlin and Donahoe (2004) discuss how mutations in these genes can lead to sexual abnormalities such as male pseudohermaphroditism.

Since these are the types of effects observed in wildlife after exposure to xenoestrogens, it seems highly conceivable to the author that compounds that alter expression of these genes at the critical period of differentiation could lead to sexual abnormalities.Mel also told us that she also learnt that the number of intersexed births in Brisbane area was now up around 32,000 since the 1950/60s. Many intersexed adults around our age who were born in Brisbane are starting to recognise & understand their gender defects as Kristy & I both have in the past couple of years. Mel also told us about the policies with intersexed births where parents were given the choice into what sex they wanted their child to be. Doctors of that era when Kristy & I were born believed the 'Nurture over Nature' theory would work and that our parents could successfully raise us to believe that we were of the gender of our newly assigned sex. This theory was proven not to work in the David Reimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer) case - See the video about the David Riemer case here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3767337480016853964).

I welcome any other information that you wish to add or your thoughts about what I have discovered recently.

Sarah Michelle

11-13-2010, 09:34 PM

We, this generation, the baby boomers, are going to pay a heavy price for the free-wheeling use of chemicals, and additives before the full effects of the chemicals were understood. It stretchs from Thalidomide in the 50s to the ever earlier onset of puberty thought to be associated to the growth hormones fed to beef and poultry...

Danni Bear

11-13-2010, 10:12 PM

Melody,

I am coming to believe that over the next 20 or so years that we will find that hormones and chemicals used over the last 50 or so years in farming and food production will have a profound effect. Not only on those of us born during these times but that also they will have thru us passed on to our children and grandchildren. There seems to be more and more evidence building that some of these may be leading to the surge in intersexand ts births in the population. I have also found that getting any information from hospitals on your own or your families birth is getting to be extremely difficult if not impossible to obtain. I'm not sure if this is concidence or planned but many records in my area dating back to the early 60's and before are missing or destroyed. not all of them but a substanual number of them.

As a side note on the scarring on your scrotum. Was it a vertical scar starting about an inch to an inch and a half in front of the anal opening and extending approximately halfway up the scrotal sac?

Danni

Melody Moore

11-13-2010, 10:23 PM

As a side note on the scarring on your scrotum. Was it a vertical scar starting about an inch to an inch and a half in front of the anal opening and extending approximately halfway up the scrotal sac?
Yes and there is a lettuce type affect with bits of finer skin protruding out of the seams. And if I feel around the area, there feels like
a depression in that area. Kristy has the exact same thing. It also appears that the labia folds still remain on either side of my scrotum.

When I have had erections, it would never stand up like I've seen with normal males and always hung down. So when it came to penetration during sex I always had to hold it up and guide it in. The other notable difference between me and other males was the small amount of ejaculate I produced was always significantly a lot less than I have seen on porn videos of other males - all my partners also commented to me about this point as well, but I was fertile as a male because I fathered 3 children. Kristy has also fathered a child.

Danni Bear

11-13-2010, 10:46 PM

This is getting strange, The conditions that you talk about are the same ones that I went through. After transition My endo now has me on the lowest dose of e that he can administer and is telling me that I don't really need that much. He said that he may have to take me off as my levels appear to be self maintaining at a level with a natal female of my age without intervention. Like you I have fathered seven children (three sets of twins). now I'm wondering if there could be more going on in my body than I ever suspected or knew about. My mom and I are going to have to have a long conversation about my birth. One last question, if when you press down in that area of the scar does it feel as if you could penetrate your body if the skin was open.

danni

Melody Moore

11-13-2010, 10:53 PM

One last question, if when you press down in that area of the scar does it feel as if you could penetrate your body if the skin was open.
Yes but that area of depression is very small and takes a bit to find sometimes. I've always had this bizarre sensation that something else was meant to be there - its a bit like when an amputee has a limb taken off, the sensation of its presence still remain.

Bernadina

11-13-2010, 11:01 PM

Melody Moore

11-13-2010, 11:04 PM

And just how many of us are pumping more unpredictable chemicals into our homes by using the so called air fresheners and scented cleaners?
Right on - xenooestrogens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen) exist in many products we use now in everyday life.

Danni Bear

11-13-2010, 11:45 PM

Melody,
that spot, is it about the area where the base would be and about the size of a dime or maybe a little smaller? The reason I ask is when they did my grs the procedure to open a vaginal cavity was unnecessary as there was already an opening. My Dr. also said that it was the easiest surgery that he had ever done on a M2F. I am going to have to do more research into my life and find out what is really going on. I have always thought that I was just TS but now I'm not so sure anymore. Your thread has opened up some questions that I need to find answers to. I do know from my mom that I was hospitalized several times before I was 2 years old but I never asked why. Now those admissions need answers.

Danni

7sisters

11-14-2010, 12:01 AM

Melody this is very significant. Thank you for writing about this. This is a very significant post. The best on this site so far!

Xenoestrogens are nothing but legalised slow bio-mutilation of populations. This is a crisis. One that will cost governments massive money. Already in Britain the levels of estrogen in people's bodies has gone up. This means more breast cancer cases. And who pays the bill? Taxpayers.

Governments need to do something pronto. I mean this is URGENT. Xenoestrogns is the best and most sure form of bio-murder-mutilation of populations. We have let the genie out of the bottle ... now who will put him back????

It's high time your government conducts a thorough investigation.

Melody pat yourself on the back for this post. God bless you dear lady and all those who are doing research on this in Brisbane and trying to find the truth! .

Melody Moore

11-14-2010, 12:13 AM

Melody,
that spot, is it about the area where the base would be and about the size of a dime or maybe a little smaller?
That is spot on Danni... and there are many more people out there in society like us, they just haven't figured it all out yet. Researchers are now expecting these types of problems to reach epidemic proportions in the future. No wonder the University of Queensland is taking such an interest now & governments need to start addressing these issues and funding health services under the public health system. This is also part of the reason I think that the Federal minister I contacted last week Mr Warren Entsch is sitting up now and taking notice of the issues I have raised after the story about Captain Bridget the Australian Army Captain who is also intersexed (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?142934-Another-Transsexual-Soldier) was released in the media. Ironically Bridget is also from the Brisbane area - the same area me & my friend Kristy are from. We all deserve straight up answers to these questions we have struggled with all of our lives.

I think people here should also review some of the information I have posted in the thread about Naturally occuring sex homeones in M to F TS (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?141518-Naturally-occuring-sex-homeones-in-M-to-F-TS)

Danni Bear

11-14-2010, 12:36 AM

This could explain many things that have occurred during my life. also why when I was 14 that my parents sent me to live with my grandmother.
There have been many odd happenings that I couldn't explain. Why for example was my grandmother and dr. able to get me admitted as a female in school when to all outward physical appearence I was male. then there is my mother saying I was the daughter she always expected earlier this year. I have a lot of re examining of my life to do. this has taken some strange and disturbing turns and twists. a side note to all of this is I am the younger of identical twin boys. Life has a way of coming up and biting you in the *** when you least expect it.

danni

Melody Moore

11-14-2010, 12:53 AM

Danni, I understand exactly where you are coming from and this also makes perfect sense why Mr Warren Entsch the Federal
Minister I spoke to last week also said to me during our phone call that transsexuality is a biological medical condition. I think
our governments know more than they are letting on, especially in the USA where such issues would cause even bigger problems
for your nation's already struggling economy - because there is obviously going to be a huge cost here to the taxpayer as well.

Another interesting fact I have noted is that babies are normally delivered in the Mater Mother's Hospital (http://www.mater.org.au/Home/Hospitals/Mater-Mothers--Hospital), but my birth certificate says I was born in the Mater Children's Hospital (http://www.mater.org.au/Home/Hospitals/Mater-Children-s-Hospital) - So was this something that was overlooked when my parents filled out my birth registration form? But because of this discrepancy in my birth records I now have a sneaky suspicion that I was actually delivered in the Toowoomba General Hospital, inland from Brisbane where I know my parents lived at the time I was conceived & that they were referred with me to Mater Children's Hospital (http://www.mater.org.au/Home/Hospitals/Mater-Children-s-Hospital) because of a very obvious birth defect. My father's address shown on my birth certificate was a block of holiday apartments in Cleveland, a suburb of Brisbane.

I have tried to question both parents about this but my mother refuses to even discuss it. However the story I got from my father was that my mother was working as a live-in housekeeper in Brisbane when I was born and that he stayed in the holiday apartments because it was the only way he could get to spend time with my mother. My father's occupation shown on my birth certificate says that he was a 'Bread carter in Toowoomba'. Now why would a wife who was married and pregnant be living apart from her husband? This smells like some type of cover-up story the more I dig into things.

ReineD

11-14-2010, 01:09 AM

Xenoestrogens (xeno = foreign), are estrogen mimickers found in every day synthetic materials and in animal feed. They are found in commercially raised meat (beef, chicken and pork), canned foods, plastics, plastic food wraps, plastic drinking bottles, styrofoam cups, industrial wastes, personal care products, car exhaust and indoor toxins, cosmetics, birth control pills and spermicide, detergents, all artificial scents (air fresheners, perfumes, etc), pesticides and herbicides, paints, lacquers and solvents.

So far, the studies have focused on the vast amounts of intersex in fish (http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/78/1/156.full) (from the chemical waste dumped in our waters). There are many more articles on other species of fish that have been affected if you google it. I've no doubt the issues with xenoestrogens are as pervasive in other developed countries as they are in Australia.

Reading this material, it's not surprising that the population of intersex born children would have increased in the last century, although I'm curious as to why only some children would have been affected and not everyone, since these estrogens are so pervasive.

Melody, have any of the studies you've seen addressed this?

Kelly DeWinter

11-14-2010, 01:17 AM

Melody
Sorry but you are misusing some research :

http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/1391/1/thesis_fulltext.pdf

READ PAGE 218

It would be wise to re-read the entire paper before getting too excited over this. At the end of her paper she stated there " there are no yet definative causal associations between exposure to xenoestorgens in the diet and human health" in other words her research did not reveal any link between xenoestrogens on human heath.

The mark of a good researcher is admitting when your research does NOT yeild proof .

Melody Moore

11-14-2010, 01:43 AM

Kelly DeWinter

11-14-2010, 02:18 AM

Riene, you have only got to search the UQ repository to see what topics that UQ researchers are currently investigating which endorses exactly what Melanie (Kirsty's partner) was telling me yesterday about how they are working now to establish these links and why some are more affected than others. I should also mention that my parents lived on a farm & my father was also a farmer for most of his life as well as a bread carter, so maybe its exposure to chemicals such as fertilisers as well as exposure to hormones used in poultry, cattle & sheep production.

I did read it, hence the reason I did identify the document as a 'thesis',
So you agree that it is invalid to cite it as reference since it clearly concludes, that there is no definiative causal relationship ?

but if you cared to dig a little deeper it not hard to build a better picture, and that doesn't take much really because Google is your best friend and besides I did post this other example of some of the studies being undertaken at UQ.
This other example is not accessable without university privliges, can you get a copy of this research to post or another link ?, would be great for members to be able to read.

Kelly, I really think you can learn something here if you go out of your way find pieces of the jigsaw puzzle and put it all together.
I am allways looking for more information to read and share, but I also am wary of research misquoted or taken out of context, As everyone should be.

This article might also explain why there is so much debate still going on over these theories: http://www.intersexinitiative.org/news/000130.html
I've heard of this paper, but have not yet been able to get a copy of it."Mechanisms of disease: Sex determination and differentiation", i'lll keep looking

and remember that there are those who dont want the truth coming out for the economical implications of what is involved here.
yes I agree,the whole TG community has a vested interest in keeping the truth in the open. Who would want helth benefits denied because of having a "TG" gean if one existed.

So I have to also ask you why does it seem to me that your main agenda is to undermine everything I am trying to point out here? A personal problem perhaps?
Not at all, I read just about every medicaly relate, research related, information related post here. As i've stated numerous times there are a lot of things i agree with you, just look two lines above in blue. And like you I have an opinion, and if I feel you or anyone else might be mistaken, or if I see some misinformation posted, I have the right to post my opinion, you also have the right to disagree with me, lol, which you do from time to time.

Sometimes people point out times when I have been wrong or in error, the difference is I am willing to admit when i'm wrong (dang i hate that word), and I don't take criticisim of my opinions as personal.

If you are going to post 'research' and 'facts', expect to be challenged from time to time.

If you think we have a personal problem IM me and lets see if we can work it out politely and civily, outside of these theads.

Danni Bear

11-14-2010, 02:18 AM

melody,

I did read the whole thesis, and on page 215 prior to the part that Kelly referenced it does state that there are substancial results of material effects. It also says after that statement that there wasn't a study done on pre pubbesent males in regards to effects. It did though make a correlation to the possible serum estrogenic levels between that segment and adult males using the mean difference is size to estimate the serum level in young males as approx 10 times the level in adults. Further it compares the level in males to the levels normally found in a natal female taking into consideration the flucations in females of child bearing age and pre-menapause. The results that she found suggest that the levels were similiar in males and post-menapausal women due to diet and enviromental impacts. Yes this is a thesis and subject to much more review of the findings found. As such the author admits that there could be errors in her research. This is but a start in looking into this. Many more researchers are looking into this and other sources of xxenohormones into humans.

Danni

Melody Moore

11-14-2010, 02:30 AM

As such the author admits that there could be errors in her research. This is but a start in looking into this. Many more researchers are looking into this and other sources of xxenohormones into humans.
Exactly! and its not hard from some of the facts that she did point out that there is a lot more credible information to be found if you followed her references. Also this thesis is 5 years old. I will be looking for more research information and as I find it I will bring it forward here. But in the meantime that is no reason why others can't start researching this as well from some of information I have provided as a starting point - why should I have to do all the work? LOL

Kelly DeWinter

11-14-2010, 02:51 AM

Danni Bear

11-14-2010, 02:51 AM

not LOL

as I spend as much time as I can spare researching this and other things. I just don't bring everything to the forum until I happen upon something that really hits me in the face. OUCH

Danni

7sisters

11-14-2010, 02:55 AM

Okay I dont know how relevant this is but in the 60s, the doctors used to give some injections to expectant mothers so they would not miscarry the child they were carrying. And they now say this injection can cause intersex babies. I am not a medical student, but maybe you all can understand this better... please read this article:
http://www.intersexualite.org/Intersex_medical_perspective2.html#anchor_8

donnalee

11-14-2010, 02:56 AM

The mark of a good researcher is admitting when your research does NOT yeild proof .

I asked a co-worker a more or less rhetorical question as I needed to gauge the depth of his knowledge. He threw guess after guess at me; I stopped him and said "Listen;' I don't know' is a perfectly valid answer. How do you expect to learn anything if you think you know it all."
The prevalence of "studies" that get results within statistical error and claim significance and just plain Lysenkoism (tailoring the research findings to "prove" a pre-determined outcome) is something I find extremely disturbing. This perverts the best way we have of determing truth.

Melody Moore

11-14-2010, 03:00 AM

She also says that the effect is 'plausable but speculative'. I wonder what kind of controlled experiments can be done to get a difinitive answer. Obviously research on humans is out of the question. Monkeys perhaps ?
I think the best research can come from those who are intersexed and mapping out any generic links, my friend Kristy & I are both willing to offer information & anthing else that it takes to help establish the most credible findings. Ive even been thinking very seriously about leaving my own body to research into such topics if something tragic was to ever happen to me.

Danni Bear

11-14-2010, 03:05 AM

Kelly,

I'm fairly certain that experiments on humans would be out. Likewise on simians would be also due to other groups opposing them. she did give the models that she and other researchers have used to get the results given. They are probably updating those to get a more definative answer all the time. Research into this or any other endeavor takes time and diligence from all who undertake it as I am sure you well know. Results are everchanging in the world of science and health. What is presumed fact one day is often contricted the next. and a theory can turn up as a fact from someone elses data the next.It is an everchanging world and who can tell what next the scientific or health world will come up with. Take all with a grain of salt and try to look at all aspects of their research. All of them have something that can benefit us.

Danni

Danni Bear

11-14-2010, 03:10 AM

Kelly DeWinter

11-14-2010, 03:16 AM

I asked a co-worker a more or less rhetorical question as I needed to gauge the depth of his knowledge. He threw guess after guess at me; I stopped him and said "Listen;' I don't know' is a perfectly valid answer. How do you expect to learn anything if you think you know it all."
The prevalence of "studies" that get results within statistical error and claim significance and just plain Lysenkoism (tailoring the research findings to "prove" a pre-determined outcome) is something I find extremely disturbing. This perverts the best way we have of determing truth.

LOL, I've had co-workers and employees like that. A few years ago I asked an employee to take a few miniutes to find out why a printer wasn't working correctly. I then went on a 4 day business trip, I came back and was surprised to find hime still working on the dang printer. When I asked him why he did'nt just go out and buy a replacement printer (he had the authority and the ability to), he scratched his head and said "I thought is I kept playing with it I could fix it" . It took me less then 4 days to fire him AND buy a new printer, LOL.

Sometimes I think the TG community is like that ,expecting science to explain the big WHY of being TRANGENDERED instead of just be ok with our own skin.

Melody Moore

11-14-2010, 03:29 AM

Sometimes I think the TG community is like that ,expecting science to explain the big WHY of being TRANGENDERED instead of just be ok with our own skin.

Its not about expecting science to explain anything and I assure you I am very comfortable in my own skin - what this is mainly about is more public awareness about some of the biological causes of being Transgender/Transsexual & Intersexual and also about getting access to health services that transsexuals & intersexuals need. Just because you are a transgendered cross-dresser, please don't think for one minute that there isn't anything vitally important in this for the rest of us - this is where you and I really do differ Kelly.

Kelly DeWinter

11-14-2010, 07:04 PM

Wow, I'm not surprised that you again have turned a discussion into a you me issue. Is this the way you deal with all interpersonal issues ?

Its not about expecting science to explain anything and I assure you I am very comfortable in my own skin
your posts make it clear that you are NOT comfortable and that you are on a one issue crusade. Most of the threads you post to, end up hijacked so that it's all about 'intersexuals needs', it becomes clear that you do not feel a part of or a desire to be a part of the community as a whole.
- what this is mainly about is more public awareness about some of the biological causes of being Transgender/Transsexual & Intersexual and also about getting access to health services that transsexuals & intersexuals need.
. Is'nt a biological cause a scientific explanation ? To know the biological cause of something requires science to explain it, or do your prefer to create a non scientific wikipedia definition that is fluid and can be changed and modified to mean anything to anyone at anytime ?

. you continue to proport and promote a divide in the TG community, not a very effective if you are trying to get a point accross.

Just because you are a transgendered cross-dresser, please don't think for one minute that there isn't anything vitally important in this for the rest of us - this is where you and I really do differ Kelly.
again, it has nothing to with me being a crossdresser or being a 3 toed sloth. I used the word 'our' which includes me in my comment. I am allways interested in valid scientific research, but the way you present a lot, yes 'a lot', but not all of your information is either as partial or out of context with end findings of the research you cite. It's a lot like reading the forum version of the Jerry Springer show

I'll would ask for you to refrain from inflamitory personal comments (of which I might (ok-am) now be guilty of as well), although I highly doubt you will be able to muster the internal fortitude to do so.

Citing thisis papers with negative results and nebulous research does not good research make. Albert Einstien once said " The definition of insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Kathryn Martin

11-14-2010, 08:45 PM

As a transsexual I also don't get the divide between those that are at various locations on the transgender spectrum. For me there is none or little. Whether it is one pustle or a body full, chicken pox is chicken pox. So a little gender dysphoria (as in fetishistic transvestites) or a intense gender dysphoria (as in fully transitioning transsexual) we are still all gender dysphoric.

While we all wish there was an explanation for many things, as far as transsexualism and transgenderism is concerned the research is oh so thin, and given the breadth of the study sample researched in all of them not much more than a working hypothesis. No matter how many studies I have read (and have read too many already) the most interesting information for me is always the methodology and study sample. One of the big issues is of course funding. That is where the leverage needs to start.

Sharon

11-14-2010, 11:01 PM

Wow, I'm not surprised that you again have turned a discussion into a you me issue.

Actually, it seems to be a two-way "discussion," and it's really gotten past boring for the rest of us..., well, for me in any case. It's time to cool it and, if you must, take it to private messaging. Any further posts by either of you along this same vein will be removed and the poster will no longer have access to the thread.

Capice?

Kelly DeWinter

11-15-2010, 08:05 AM

Sharon.

You are I right, I appologize, to everyone for overstepping the bounds of civility.

Kelly

Stephanie Anne

11-15-2010, 09:14 AM

I was going to add my opinion but I guess this discussion has turned into a shouting match so I shall respectfully decline my thoughts on rBGH and BPA and why we are often desiring a scientific determination for transsexuality to help our desire for medical overage with insurance and as a scapegoat for acceptance.

ReineD

11-15-2010, 11:57 AM

Stephanie, the discussion is no longer a shouting match. Please read the few posts above you, and feel free to voice your concerns.

I googled BGH and BPA since I'm not familiar with the acronyms. BGH (Beef Growth Hormone) and BPA (Bisphenol-A) are linked to male infertility. BPA is used widely to make plastic harder and watertight tin cans. Then I found the following enlightening post from an MD that I want to share with everyone. The post is in this blog (http://vigilance.teachthefacts.org/2009/07/cnn-transgender-people-are-here-to-stay.html).

Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

The genetics of human sexual development is highly complex, with over 54 genes actively involved in embryonic development. The SRY gene on the Y chromosome is just part of it, and there are cases where the SRY is on the X chromosome.

We've learned a great deal about sexual development, especially the fact that it is often not the genes that matter (since we share those genes with many other mammals), but the regulation of those genes leading to the orchestration of gene expression.

There are genetic variations that lead to a female brain with male genitals, epigenetic variations due to DES, phthalate and BPA exposure that cause transsexualism and other intersex changes, various metabolic variations rooted in the genes such as Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia and Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, chromosomal variations such as Klinefelter's and Turner's, etc.

I like Donna's juxtaposition between spirit and body, because it is a polarity appreciated by many throughout Western history. But gender identity is a function of the mind driven by brain structures such as the Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis of the hypothalamus, among others.

The brain is a part of the body just like the genitals, all jokes of the male brain being lodged in the scrotum aside. When there is a sexual mismatch between brain and genitals, the solution with a 99% success rate is to reconstruct the genitals to match the brain.

It really is quite simple, except for those who somehow view the genitals as sacred or more important to human experience than the brain. We see this in the denigration of people with "mental illness" all the time, whereas "mental illness" is no more than the psychological manifestation of brain disorders. Being schizophrenic is no different than having multiple sclerosis, it just manifests through behavior and is, therefore, classified as "mental" which translates into "weak, moral, dangerous, perverted."

It's time we recognized the material causes of these variations and disorders and treat them as we treat any other medical condition. The treatment of the form of intersex known as transsexualism is the reconstruction of the sexually dimorphic aspects of the body, and not the futile treatment of the brain which has not worked in over 100 years of trials.

Kaitlyn Michele

11-15-2010, 12:53 PM

Dana's quote is a great one..

here is the problem...the cause of transsexualism (regardless of what it is) impacts and frankly challenges very ingrained notions in our society and culture.. so much so that many people believe it threatens them (pathetic but true!)...there is still not universal support for gay marriage for crying out loud... so getting to a root cause (if there is one) is only a detail inside a much larger problem...whose to say that we still won't be shunned if a cause is discovered..

a complicating factor is that quite often the most passable and successful transsexuals chose to disappear and blend into a society that would otherwise marginalize them
..add to that that our numbers are very small, and as Dr Beyer points the cause is incredibly complicated..etcetc...

so the gains we get from pointing the finger at chemicals, or hormones or biology seem minor compared to any gains we can get being accepted into society as just like everybody else..

these are not independent things, i'm sure people may be influenced by "knowing" that its not my "lifestyle choice" but rather a life threatening medical condition caused by (fill in the blank)...but in my day to day life, people's eyes glaze over when i try to share research findings or theories...

it's all very discouraging in some ways

however, what i've found is that by going through transition..i just don't care that much anymore why i am myself...i no longer feel like i need to be cured of anything, and i just want to move on and live an authentic life...

so my selfish answer is to just be a good person, and hopefully influence people i come across to be more accepting of what i did about my condition, and if a person that is thinking about their gender identity asks me, i'll tell them to stop wasting time trying to figure out why, and figure out how YOU want to live YOUR life..

i don't have any problem whatsover with all the research being done, but I think its obvious from this thread that people have agenda's that may or may not be helpful to transsexuals in general..and because we are all so different, it can do harm to the very vulnerable psyches of people in the early stages of realizing that they have a real problem that is not going away..

my therapist dr maureen osborne recently spoke an anti-NARTH rally and here is a quote...

Every transgender person I have ever seen in my therapy office has already
> exerted a lifetime of energy, thoughts, and prayers toward being comfortable
> with their birth assigned gender. None has succeeded in doing so through
> sheer willpower or behavioral techniques. The only thing that relieves
> gender dysphoria is accepting and embracing one’s inner sense of gender,
> followed by some type of social validation.

i think it is a very clear and concise statement, and i like it because its true, easily understandable and does not require a person to understand X14 space modulators to feel compassion and empathy around our situation..

Melody Moore

11-15-2010, 01:32 PM

here is the problem...the cause of transsexualism (regardless of what it is) impacts and frankly challenges very ingrained notions in our society and culture.. so much so that many people believe it threatens them (pathetic but true!)...there is still not universal support for gay marriage for crying out loud... so getting to a root cause (if there is one) is only a detail inside a much larger problem...whose to say that we still won't be shunned if a cause is discovered..
Fortunately for me I live in Australia - the lucky country, especially if you are gay or transsexual. See this
article Poll finds 53 per cent of Australians support same-sex marriage (http://www.news.com.au/national/poll-finds-53-per-cent-of-australians-support-same-sex-marriage/story-e6frfkvr-1225953981801) published only yesterday.

So in my country we have the best anti-discrimination laws & acceptance of gender & sexual diversity than anywhere else in the world & bigotry in Australian society is disappearing slowly but surely. I AM COMFORTABLE IN MY OWN SKIN despite what others have had to say about me here. For me understanding why, or what contributed to why I was born intersexed has nothing to do at all with 'validation to society'. I also have a very good understanding on the biological mechanisms that define our gender & sexuality. I'm not insecure in anyway now about being transsexual - even my pyschologist can see I am really comfortable in myself, but I do want society to understand that there are people like us & that we do need access to better health services to repair the mutilation that was done without our consent when we were infants or to make the necessary cosmetic changes to our genitalia to match the rest of or mind and bodies.

The reason I haven't been back on this thread until now is because I did have appointments with my doctor & pyschologist yesterday & felt too tired after all my running around dealing with my business to respond to anything here any sooner. But the good news is my doctor finally took blood samples for my chromosomal tests and gave me a referral for ultrasound scans of my pelvic region so I will have all the answers I need very soon into my intersexuality.

The only personal reason I want to know the truth here is so I can put an end to my parents resentment & lying to me about my intersexuality. My aim when I do have all the medical facts and data is to confront my parents about the issue & also tell them that I understand the reasons now behind why they concealed my intersexuality from me, (Nurture over Nature) and then tell them I forgive them for it. I mentioned earlier that my mother was also a nurse and she had a very clinical and emotionless approach to raising me and dealing with my issues. My mother has been in denial to me although she has never outright denied anything to me, she simply avoids my questions and I want to put an end to that once and for all then move on and have a proper relationship with her before its too late and she passes on from this world.

I just hope that some of you can finally understand where I am coming from because life for me & my family has been sheer hell.

Thank you to those people who have contributed to this topic in the most positive of ways.

Kelly DeWinter

11-15-2010, 02:54 PM

........ why we are often desiring a scientific determination for transsexuality to help our desire for medical overage with insurance ....

Its about the money and who pays:

In most countries without a medical code (determined via scientific research) to put on an insurance form (required by insurance companies) doctors and therapists will not be paid for their services, or be able to reccomend a course of treatment covered by an insurance policy. I guess the only way to get around it is to pay cash or go to an unlicenced doctor for treatment. If you go the unlicenced rout, you can end up with a half assed operation or dead. Some people buy hormones and other treatments over the internet and are never sure if they are getting what they think they have bought, but that another thread.

Melody Moore

12-11-2010, 08:25 PM

As I have mentioned recently in some other threads Federal governments from all around the world are now pouring in millions of dollars into research & scientist are conducting lot's of research into the genetics & biological mechanics behind the causes intersexuality & transsexualism. Until fairly recently Intersexed, transsexual & other transgender related issues were often overlooked by society because noone really considered it very important.

But do our governments still really ignore the us & consider the transgendered community such a minority today & in the future?

I personally don't believe that is true anymore after my recent communications with
my local Federal Minister into Transgender issues and here are some of the reasons why....

As I mentioned in the very start of this thread a friend of mine has just completed her psychology studies at University with honours told me some very interesting information which prompted me to launch this thread a few weeks ago. My friend made it very clear to me that of the causes of this alarm for governments is the numbers of transgendered people now coming out of the woodwork in society & babies being born with intersexed conditions seems to be on the rise. About 1 in every 1500 babies are born today with intersexed conditions. See: http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

Academics & authoritarians are now starting to believe that mankind could be under serious threat from the use of EDCs (Endocrine Disrupting
Chemicals) now leeching into our waterways and studies are going on all around the world into the triggers & causes of gender abnormalities.
Statistics are also indicating a drop in the sperm count & fertility. And although noone as come out & outright said this, it is only too obvious
from all this research going lately on that EDCs are believed to be a primary cause of feminisation of male species of fish, animals & humans!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y40KXO8EYSw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1dyw0_qWKA

EDCs are believed to be responsible for a number of other health conditions, including Breast cancer, prostate cancer and testicular cancer which is now believed to be closely associated with contact with various EDCs Endocrine disruptors. The effects Endocrine disruptors have on the cause of Autism are also being closely studied. Disabilities caused as a result of missing or Abnormal DNA also have a connection to the amount of Endocrine Disruptors in the Environment - Source: The Effect of Synthetic Chemicals on the Endocrine System (http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Effect-of-Synthetic-Chemicals-on-the-Endocrine-System&id=4363858).

To help you better understand the scientific study into EDCs more closely, please see these 2 videos:
Intersexuality in fish caused by EDCs (1 of 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdiszdVYFhU)
Intersexuality in fish caused by EDCs (2 of 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI-XPVshgZA)

After you have listened to this report you will realise that some of these male fish in the study were not born intersexed, their testes changed over the course of time. And as this report & the information I have provided here also shows researchers, academics & authoritarians are now of the belief that this will have severe implications for Humans.

Fish in our waterways are the proverbial 'canaries in the mine-shafts' with respect to understanding the healthy condition of our water sources. Many species are fish are now turning intersexed with males now producing eggs instead of sperm. This radical environmental change which is now believed to be caused by EDCs is being closely monitored by environmental organisation around the world. Some of the organisations now conducting research include the USGS (http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1870), EPA (http://www.epa.gov/oppt/existingchemicals/pubs/actionplans/np-npe.html), Land & Water Australia (http://lwa.gov.au/files/products/innovation/pn22054/pn22054.pdf), Water Quality Research Australia (http://www.wqra.com.au/) & CEFAS (http://www.cefas.co.uk/) to just name a few.

Here are a few links to lots of research that proves that government departments all around the world are taking the issue with EDCs very seriously:

Here is an Environmental Audit of the Chesapeake Bay Watershed ordered by the Maryland Attorney General's Office (http://www.oag.state.md.us/Reports/2008EnvironmentalAudit.pdf).
Chemicals of Concern in Wastewater Treatment Plant Effluent: State of the Science in Australia (http://www.wqra.com.au/publications/paper08_chemicals_wastewater_effluent.pdf).
Targeting Endocrine Disruptors in Australia’s Waterways (http://lwa.gov.au/files/products/innovation/pn22054/pn22054.pdf).
First reported cases of intersex (ovotestis) in the flatfish species dab Limanda limanda: Dogger Bank, North Sea (http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/301/m301p307.pdf).
A ranking system for the evaluation of intersex condition in European flounder (Platichthys flesus) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15648756).
An investigation of the incidence of intersex fish in Seine-Maritime and Sussex regions. (http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20013063371.html?start=500)

Here are some more reports if you are interested to read further:
More Hermaphrodite Fish in U.S. Rivers (http://news.discovery.com/animals/more-hermaphrodite-fish-in-us.html).
Intersex Fish More Widespread in U.S. Rivers Than Thought. (http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/blogs/news/chiefeditor/2009/09/intersex-fish-in-rivers.html)
Water contaminant to be studied, regulated by EPA (http://www.waterworld.com/index/display/article-display/articles/waterworld/environmental0/water-pollution_prevention/2010/08/Water-contaminant-to-be-regulated.html)
Intersex Fish and Water Pollution (http://www.sciencenewsreview.com/intersex-fish-and-water-pollution/)
'Intersex' fish linked to farm runoff, population (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23067257/)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1dyw0_qWKA)

VanessaVW

12-11-2010, 08:42 PM

Melody,

I have to admit that it gave me the "chills" when I saw your You-tube link about intersexed fish. That is the area where I grew up. Yikes!! I don't live there now, but......

Melody Moore

12-11-2010, 09:09 PM

That is the area where I grew up. Yikes!! I don't live there now, but......
That is the area you grew up and you are glad you don't live there now?

And today you are a member of this forum - I am not trying to draw an fore-gone conclusions here, but don't you find that a bit ironic?

VanessaVW

12-11-2010, 09:12 PM

That is the area you grew up and you are glad you don't live there now?

And today you are a member of this forum - I am not trying to draw an fore-gone conclusions here, but don't you find that a bit ironic?

I certainly never eat the fish from there!!!

Melody Moore

12-11-2010, 09:22 PM

Well no Venessa definitely not, I think you would be foolish to eat fish from there but what about drinking water from there?
Did this river system play any part in your local water supply? That would be one question I wouldn't mind knowing the answer
to. The reason I would be suspicious is because EDCs have been used & affecting our environment for well over 70 years now.

ReineD

12-11-2010, 09:44 PM

Melody, thanks for the info. Pollutants in the environment are a huge cause for concern not only for intersex conditions, but as you say for many others as well.

As to the Potomac River mentioned above, FYI it is near Washington CD, not too far south of Philadelphia and New York City, and this is probably the densest population area in the US.

Danni Bear

12-11-2010, 10:05 PM

Reine,

densest and then some. It may be one of, if not the largest metropolititan areas encompassed in the world when you take in all the areas around and surrounding the Potomac River and Chesapeake Bay.

Danni

Melody Moore

12-11-2010, 10:53 PM

Its the same anywhere before you can colonise any area you first need a good source of water, then you need food production - so agriculture is always what follows next, along comes the industry. As each year after a crop is pulled it leeches vital nutrients from the soil that need to be replenished and sadly the trends today mean they are using synthetic fertilisers more than natural fertilisers which get carried back into our waterways and this is the result. Environmental Pollution and EDCs now threaten our very existence. But also at the same time I am starting to feel in my heart that this is Mother Nature's way of fighting back to regulate population control to help save the planet.

Recently I read this extremely bigoted question "Do homosexuals strengthen the planet, or weaken the planet?" on this website:
http://www.thirdgender666.com. I am starting to believe that the LGBTGQI community is something that does strengthen the planet
in more ways than someone with such a blinkered & narrow-minded view like this particular bigot could ever hope to understand.

For thousands & thousands of years mankind lived in harmony in nature until the British colonist come along with their white missionaries and interfering in the balance of nature. They did this in America, Australia, Polynesia, Asia, India - all over the world. I have seen this in my visions recently believe it or not after some very private discussions Danni. Something very prophetic was revealed to us and it was all started through this same very forum thread. Danni has made some very interesting discoveries about her own intersex condition and her family that she knew nothing about (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?143607-A-lifetime-lie). Recently her now late dying aunt gave her a message, some of it was given to Danni in English, and some parts of if were in Chippewa. After contacting translators Danni managed to translate the message - and here is how it reads:

Sunshine in the dark, daughter follow me the clan awaits at the headwaters, a daughter
in distant land having a future task. Suffering illness & hardship to go out together into
whole world as one family, awake sisters take the little ones hand lead family to light.

Here I am sitting over 12,000 miles away from Danni and feeling like my two-spirit sister is sitting right beside me hugging me the whole time we were discussing our personal intersex conditions and having a very prophetic vision revealed to the both of us along the way. Danni never told me that she was part Chippewa Indian until I said something to her after I had actually seen in a vision of Indians gathering at the headwaters of a river a couple of weeks ago. I told Danni that I felt that she was an authentic Ojibwe two-spirit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojibwe#Culture). At this point of time in my life I had no idea on the path my life was going to take and I even told Danni this. It wasnt until a new path (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit_Identity_Theory) revealed itself recently did I have any idea what I was going to be doing in the future. My calling is Public Education (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?144797-My-New-Appointment-I-TG-TS-Community-Education) - so this is the path that I am now keen to follow.

The prophetic message that Danni & I have been given takes on a whole new meaning for me as I am sure it does for her. We all have a place here, some of us are not meant to bear children, although some of us already have, but infertility, intersexuality, transgenderism & transsexuality is a trend that we will see a lot more of in the future as the younger generations will soon take our place. I am in tears here right now trying to write this message that is so important for many other people to try and understand. This isn't a hoax or some type of conspiracy theory, this is something that is happening all around us in the here and the now and the future of mankind will hinge on the decisions we make in the future.

Peace everyone - I truly love you all.

juligirl1984

12-11-2010, 11:11 PM

so my selfish answer is to just be a good person, and hopefully influence people i come across to be more accepting of what i did about my condition, and if a person that is thinking about their gender identity asks me, i'll tell them to stop wasting time trying to figure out why, and figure out how YOU want to live YOUR life..

love that answer!!!!!

Melody Moore

12-11-2010, 11:25 PM

love that answer!!!!!
I would love to think that answer was so simple, but the bottom line it not when the problem is so complex & has such wide reaching ramifications,
especially when it comes to personal health (http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Effect-of-Synthetic-Chemicals-on-the-Endocrine-System&id=4363858) - Just ask Danni Bear about her most recent stay in hospital & the procedure that was just carried out.

Let's just hope that something like this never happens to you or someone you care about. Because then
maybe then you might understand why some underlying issues cannot be ignored & need to be addressed.

juligirl1984

12-11-2010, 11:35 PM

aw, yea i know its not... I just started to accept.. now I'am starting the "why" part lol.

I've been reading about the different EDC's on wikpedia. very interesting... kinda have a posibility here... my dad is a spray man. he uses a few of those insecticides that were listed on there.(endosulfon)... (it was back in the day before the ban on them). also atrazine, a herbicide, he used. maybe it got into me somehow since he was exposed to that stuff a lot before I was born and while I was a kid... heck I even spray now...(just broadleaf) and maybe some of that shit I use has stuff in it also....

Danni Bear

12-12-2010, 12:43 AM

Hello everyone,

This is a very hard post for me to make.

For the last six weeks or so I have been making some startling discoveries about myself and my family history. As many have seen through my posts recently many of the beliefs about my birth were deliberate falsehoods from my parents. I only learned of them due to a serious medical condition and then by speaking about what I was finding out with my mother and demanding the truth. It was at this point in time that I visited three of my oldest known relativies at the nursing home where they were all residents. Unknown to me prior to going there, the Dr. that had performed the origional procedure was also in residence there. The oldest of these relatives was my great aunt Connie, my grandfathers sister at 109.While listening to them speak and talking to them my aunt made a remark that shook me up. It was about a remark that her greatgrandmother had made when she was a child and she directed it towards me.

The next day my twin brother,my husband and I visited the gravesite where our unknown sister had been interred, little knowing what I was to find there. That evening I was at home with my husband when the nursing home called. They asked me if I would mind coming as my aunt had become distraught and was demanding to see me.I arrived about 9 pm that night and was taken to her room after speaking to the nurse in charge. Ten minutes after entering her room my aunt passed, this after saying things that I did not understand. Some in english and some that I now know were Chippewa (Anishinaabe). This was something I will never forget.

I have made attempts and contacted many with a much greater knowledge of this to try and decipher the message or words that my aunt said to me just prior to her death. Melody has given you their interpation of those words and phrases in her previous post.In the time since Thanksgiving I have had precicous little time to devote to this as I have been in and still am in the hospital recovering from surgery.
Does all that has happened to me make a believer out of me. The major part of my mind says yes as I don't believe in coincidences. There has to be a purpose behind Melody and I meeting at the time we did.That even without knowing anything about me or my family she could tell me things about myself. I was able to tell her things that related directly back to her own past without ever knowing anything about her.Over the last several weeks it has been as if she and I were on opposite ends of the same line spinning in concert together. It doesn't seem to matter where either of us are at any given moment the other is always present.

Can I prove all this without any of you present to witness any of it ? The answer is no,does that make it any less factual? The answer is still no.All I or anyone else can do is keep searching for answers and to try and help any that have questions.That is the goal and destiny that has been set before me. One that to the best of my ability I'm going to accomplish

Love
Danni Beard

Melody Moore

12-12-2010, 01:32 AM

There has to be a purpose behind Melody and I meeting at the time we did.That even without knowing anything about me or my family she could tell me things about myself. I was able to tell her things that related directly back to her own past without ever knowing anything about her.Over the last several weeks it has been as if she and I were on opposite ends of the same line spinning in concert together. It doesn't seem to matter where either of us are at any given moment the other is always present.
I have to testify to exactly what Danni has said here, I also don't believe it was just coincidence. Somehow on another plane we touched each other. I feel Danni in my heart as if she is as much a part of me as I am to her. Don't ask me to explain how this all come to fruition, it just did. As Danni also mentions we knew things about each other without even telling each other and before our meeting I was existing with no real purpose in life, but now I have been given new directions & a new task in life and it's ironic that part of the message that Danni was given by her late aunt seems to reflect this and also at a time that we both fell ill & landed in hospital - "a daughter in distant land having a future task. Suffering illness & hardship to go out together into whole world as one family".

To better understand how we worked many things out, its not by thinking about these matters in our minds, the answers we found out about each other and why we do exist were revealed to us by feeling it in our hearts. Both of our lives have been filled with lies & deceit - deliberate falsehoods from our parents about our births. But we also realise that we are not the only 2 intersex/transsexual people like this in the world today, there are many more of us who are struggling to try and work out who we are & where we fit into this mixed up & crazy world. And Danni & I for some unknown reason are been compelled now by something very powerful & way beyond our control to help them. The path for me to how I might go about that was already laid, I just didn't see it at first, but in the past week alone a lot more has now been revealed (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?144797-My-New-Appointment-I-TG-TS-Community-Education).

We know there are sceptics here that won't believe us & this was something we both feared about revealing our stories, but
in all honesty I believe that is completely irrelevant because two of us here do know the real truth & that is all that matters.

Thank you for reading. :gh:

amielts

12-15-2010, 11:52 PM

I doubt that the actual incidence of trans/intersex has gone up - but I guess more people have come out about it.

Melody Moore

12-16-2010, 08:05 AM

Well you better believe it, because it has, along with a massive decrease in the fertility rates of males - I got told by a very reliable source that there was a staggering 30,000 births of babies with intersex conditions alone last year in Brisbane. Some intersex conditions are happening now as frequent as 1 in ever 100 births - See: http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency Sure more intersex & transsexual people are coming out now that more information & better support is available to the public, especially through the internet, but there is obvious concerns over how EDCs might be playing a part in the recent surges in numbers. The fertility rate is something that has been of concern for quite sometime as well. http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=202995&sectioncode=26

Kelly DeWinter

12-16-2010, 08:31 AM

I doubt that the actual incidence of trans/intersex has gone up - but I guess more people have come out about it.

Amielts,

Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses, It's easy to throw out numbers and percentages on a forum. The internet can be use to post both valid information, but the amount of rubbish that is posted far outweighs the truth.

Melody Moore

12-16-2010, 09:17 AM

the amount of rubbish that is posted far outweighs the truth.
Rubbish? I've backed a lot of my statements up with links which shows a very clear picture about what is really going on.
So where are your links to prove that what I am saying here isn't the truth? & that everything I have said is mostly rubbish?

Having been through the ordeal of being born intersex and still having to deal with it has been a very painful experience
and I am damn sure that I don't want to see more kids go through what Danni Bear & I went through - especially with
being surgically butchered before the age of 4 years old and having our sex predetermined for us by someone else.

I suggest anyone who doesn't understand what this means, then please watch this video:
http://www.isna.org/files/xxxy.mov

While this might not be important to you Kelly, to some of us who are intersex understanding how some of these things have
happened might be very important to some of us, especially if there is a risk of passing our intersex condition on to future
generations & our grand-kids suffering as a result. This is something my kids & my grandchildren need to know about.

Here is an interesting read that puts a few things into a much clearer perspective.

http://www.sensible-alternative.com.au/female-hormones/rise-of-infertility

Here are a few snippets of info from the above link (More reference materials also linked to this article - see this link (http://www.sensible-alternative.com.au/female-hormones/rise-of-infertility) for more info)

Falling sperm counts

Pesticides, dioxins and other chemicals have both been shown to decrease sperm counts in experimental animals. In an astounding development, the effect has been shown to be multi-generational. Dr Anway from the Centre for Reproductive Biology at Washington State found that a single exposure to pesticide is enough to damage sperm for many generations. His team exposed pregnant rats to common pesticides and then measured sperm counts over the next five generations. They found that 10% of male descendents were completely infertile, and 90% had low sperm counts. The effect remained undiminished over five generations. (2) This means that a man today can have a low sperm count because his grandmother was exposed to DDT in the 1940's.

Sperm also declines with age, particularly in terms of quality. Children born to men over 40 are six times more likely to have autism than children born to men under 30, regardless of the mother's age (3). Men over 40 are also more likely to father pregnancies that end in miscarriage (4).

Although sperm is delicate, it can also be regenerated quite quickly. It takes 3 months for a man to grow healthy new sperm and research shows that this can be enhanced with anti-oxidants, particularly with zinc and selenium. Acupuncture has been shown to improve sperm morphology

Chilling evidence for hormone disrupting chemicals

In the developed world, girls are reaching puberty an average of a full year earlier than they did earlier in the century. (13) There is growing evidence that this trend is linked to contamination with pesticide and plastic residues. (14,15)

Early puberty is a health risk for girls, both emotionally and physically. They are forced to deal with adult body issues before they have reached emotional maturity. They are also at a greater lifetime risk for hormone sensitive diseases such as breast cancer and endometriosis.

If anything, boys are even more vulnerable to hormone-disrupting chemicals. For one thing, they are less likely to be born in the first place. Men exposed to chemicals, such as dioxin and PCB's are less likely to father boys. (16) Boys that are born are more likely to have hypospadias, which is a penis malformation caused by too little testosterone. Hypospadias rates have doubled since 1970 (17), (about 1 in 770 (http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency)) and it is believed to be caused by the effect of oestrogen-mimicking chemicals on male foetuses. (18) Other signs of hormonal interference in boys include delayed puberty and abnormally low sperm count.

Quick Facts about hormone-disrupting chemicals:

• The average person tests positive for at least 116 chemicals, many of which were banned over two decades ago.
• 250 toxic substances have been identified in human breast milk, including perfumes, suntan oil, pesticides and heavy metals.
• Infants ingest 42 times above what is regarded as the safe limit for dioxins, a chemical that in may not even have a safe limit, because according to the US Environmental Protection Agency, dioxin is 300,000 times more carcinogenic than DDT.
• Hormone-disrupting chemicals cause damage they are only a few parts per billion (22)
Worse exposure is from:

Household cleaning products
Pesticides on food and, if you spray, in your home and garden
Cosmetics including moisturisers and sunscreen
Styrofoam, especially with hot drinks
Plastic including plastic liners in cans and long-life milk containers
Chewable baby toys
Flame retardants in carpets and furniture
Air and water pollution

Toxins are stored in body fat, so detoxification of the body is a critical part of any fertility treatment.Just remember some of the most outlandish conspiracy theories have turned out to be true, but the alarm
over EDCs isn't just another conspiracy theory and I think I have well & truly proved that. So I rest my case.

Stephanie Anne

12-16-2010, 11:21 AM

Amielts,

Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses, It's easy to throw out numbers and percentages on a forum. The internet can be use to post both valid information, but the amount of rubbish that is posted far outweighs the truth.

Is this a statement, question, or rebuttal of someone's opinion? I honestly am confused by what you said here? I do think transgendered numbers have been inaccurate as valid statistics are or have been impossible to tabulate due to reluctance to admit that one is transgendered.

The 1 in 10,000 claim was low. I think it might be acceptable to assume 20-25% of the world's population is transgendered. It could be argued that 10-20% of that population are transsexed and 10-20% of that population are intersexed.

Melody Moore

12-16-2010, 11:39 AM

Is this a statement, question, or rebuttal of someone's opinion? I honestly am confused by what you said here? I do think transgendered numbers have been inaccurate as valid statistics are or have been impossible to tabulate due to reluctance to admit that one is transgendered.
Spot on Stephanie, this has been something that has been constantly highlighted in just about every study into Transgenderism, Transsexuality and Male Fertility rates. See this research paper by Monash University into Male Fertility in Australia for an example: http://elecpress.monash.edu.au/pnp/cart/download/free.php?paper=33

See Conclusion:
We should also be aware that other researchers have found that men's responses to questions
about fertility can be unreliable, with male fertility under-represented or under reported.Because of the inherit problem of males tending to be in denial about such issues regarding gender, sexuality
& fertility that it is more probable that numbers shown in current statistics well exceed what is already known.

I know one thing is certain, more so-called 'straight' men are bi-curious or bisexual than one would
ever first imagine. And a fair percentage of those also have cross-dressing fetishes, including
pantyhose & lingere fetishes - I found that out by being open publicly about my transsexuality.

ReineD

12-16-2010, 01:44 PM

The 1 in 10,000 claim was low. I think it might be acceptable to assume 20-25% of the world's population is transgendered.

20-25% means one out of every 4 or 5 people are TG. This is certainly not accurate. If it was, TGs would have become a recognized and accepted, huge segment of our society. The latest numbers are rather one in 1,000 or 1,500, not one in 4 or 5.

I know this thread isn't about statistics and I certainly don't want to delete your post for its inaccuracy, but I couldn't let it go without saying anything either. :)

Stephanie Anne

12-16-2010, 02:41 PM

20-25% means one out of every 4 or 5 people are TG. This is certainly not accurate. If it was, TGs would have become a recognized and accepted, huge segment of our society. The latest numbers are rather one in 1,000 or 1,500, not one in 4 or 5.

I know this thread isn't about statistics and I certainly don't want to delete your post for its inaccuracy, but I couldn't let it go without saying anything either. :)

And I say our inherent reluctance to admit to being transgendered (from crossdressers to transsexed and everywhere in between including gender queer) is why what I said. You don't have to wear a corset and ball gown to be transgendered. I think the 1 in 1500 you have heard relate to those with what was once called gender identity disorder and not crossdressers, gender queer, et al

I would not like to think that moderators on this forum delete posts for personal disagreements.

And Melody, don't forget the embarrassment and reluctance of female assigned at birth people to admit to having transgendered tendencies. there is no reason to assume that there are any less of the female population than the male.

ReineD

12-16-2010, 03:03 PM

I would not like to think that moderators on this forum delete posts for personal disagreements.

It's not about it being a personal disagreement.

It's about the forum's unspoken responsibility to not have grossly false information out there for the benefit of the hundreds of unregistered people who visit this forum daily, some of which I am sure are desperately looking for answers for themselves. Coming up with exact statistics is not the point of this thread, but to lead some person out there to believe that one in 4 people are TG might give them false hope about their prospect for universal acceptance.

Please read all the available research on the topic before you come in here and put out statistics like this.

Felicity71

12-16-2010, 03:33 PM

Stephanie Anne

12-16-2010, 04:28 PM

It's not about it being a personal disagreement.

It's about the forum's unspoken responsibility to not have grossly false information out there for the benefit of the hundreds of unregistered people who visit this forum daily, some of which I am sure are desperately looking for answers for themselves. Coming up with exact statistics is not the point of this thread, but to lead some person out there to believe that one in 4 people are TG might give them false hope about their prospect for universal acceptance.

Please read all the available research on the topic before you come in here and put out statistics like this.

Why is it so hard to assume that up to 20-25% of the world's entire population has gender fluidity? Orientation Studies show that up to 10% of the male population demographic and 6% of the female have sexual fluidity so why not assume a similar demographic are not rigidly tied into a single gender identity or at least have, will have, or do express themselves outside of gender norms?

I honestly do not think anyone is naive enough to assume that, just because of higher numbers, does equal to acceptance.

For example, women fluctuate between 50 and 51% of the population of the planet. One would assume this would easily equate to equality. In truth male dominance in society is a factor that is not overturned by numbers.

I stand by my claim that the numbers are high, yet the numbers for those who would benefit form transition are much smaller.

Even if my estimate was high, it should be safe to assume that up to 10% of the male population experiences gender fluidity at some point in their life. Whether they either act upon it or admit to it is another story. Add in the number of female population that expresses them selves in a more fluid nature and the numbers climb closer to my estimate.

So while I am avoiding links to statistics as they are readily available, I think I state a logical case for my initial assumption.

Also transgendered does not equal transsexual but is an umbrella term so I still state that the numbers for transsexuals is infinitesimally smaller than my larger claim.

Karen564

12-16-2010, 04:35 PM

20-25% means one out of every 4 or 5 people are TG. This is certainly not accurate. If it was, TGs would have become a recognized and accepted, huge segment of our society. The latest numbers are rather one in 1,000 or 1,500, not one in 4 or 5.

I agree Reine, 25% is way out there in left field.....and if the numbers really were that high, then we wouldn't have had to fight for basic rights & anti-discrimination laws tooth & nail....which as far as I'm concerned, still has a long way to go yet here in the U.S.

We also have to make it clear exactly what numbers were talking about here....whether it's TG or TS and if it's TS, is that mtf or ftm....obviousely the number for TG is much higher than that being TS..
If the number really is 1/1000 for that being mtf TS, that still seems Way high to me....but I have no facts to back that up...either way, it's been said there's approx. 30,000 post-op mtf & ftm TS's in the US & double that worldwide..& obviously there's many more pre-op TS's....say if I said hypothetically there's 100,000 post-op's total world wide & 10 times more pre-op's (mtf & ftm) for a total of 1,100,000 in this world, now take the world population of 6,888,000,000 , I come up with 1 for every 12,524 (both pre & post ops) or roughly 0.0002 % of the entire world population........
Now to separate that for only post ops (mtf & ftm), again hypothetically say 100,000 total & divide that by the world population of 6,888,000,000 is 1 for every 68,880 or 0.00001% so it's not so high as everyone may think it is. ...I think... lol
But I am very blond at times & can't say math has ever been my thing..lol

Here's how someone else looked at it & I find this interesting too....but I'd like to add, what one person say's doesn't make it so...I don't care who it is regarding this subject of numbers.....

http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/prevalence.htm

Melody Moore

12-16-2010, 08:16 PM

Why is it so hard to assume that up to 20-25% of the world's entire population has gender fluidity?
While I am not sure about gender diversity but if you are talking about sexual orientation I do believe that figures could be this high that is
for sure. So it is not outlandish to suggest that about 70-80% of men could be bi-curious or have other bisexual or transgender tendencies.

On a social networking & dating site (person.com) I am a member of, I get chatted up by guys aged between 25 to 50 who according to their sexual orientation given are 'straight guys'. The greater majority of these guy start chatting to me without reading my profile or knowing I am pre-op transsexual female. I can tell this on this website because it shows me who has read my profile or not. I will always ask the guys who contact me and don't show up as 'having read my profile' if they have read it or not, and if they are aware I am a pre-op transsexual female? Surprisingly the greatest majority of guys mostly fine with my transsexual gender status. About 1 in every 100 guys might have a bad reaction to finding this news out about me - proving to me that bigotry about transsexuality is well in the minority. I estimate that up to about 70-80% of guys who contact me and have their sexual orientation as listed as 'straight' have admitted to bi-curious or have other bisexual or transgender tendencies

What I have found is that most guys are curious to talk to someone like me when they know my transsexual status and they open up about their own sexuality & gender issues because they don't fear me as someone who will judge them & be critical about them. In the time that I have been a member of person.com I estimate that I have had about 3000 contacts. And out of that that I have discovered about 30 other transgendered guys who like to cross-dress in varying degrees - everything from pantyhose & lingerie fetishes to going out on weekends 'in public en femme". I have also discovered at least 3 other transsexuals on this website who haven't come out, but also desire to go on hormones & transition from male to female & they now talk to me on a regular basis for support. One of these guys is now a member of this forum and is trying to find himself in the transsgender spectrum. So if this example is anything to go by then about 1 in every 100 guys is transgendered & about 1 in every 1000 guys is transsexual and a far greater number of guys have sexual orientation deviations that are not 'heterosexual' but they are not open enough to admit publicly to any of that.

30000 babies born in brisbane last year with intersex conditions?

I asked this person who told me if they were sure if it was 30,000 or 3000 & apparently the figures they were quoted was 30,000?
So they are checking those numbers for me to find out if that is 'Births in Brisbane only' or in 'Births in the State of Queensland'. But
as it has been pointed out already - finding out the exact statistics is not the real purpose of this thread.

And Melody, don't forget the embarrassment and reluctance of female assigned at birth people to admit to having
transgendered tendencies. there is no reason to assume that there are any less of the female population than the male.
Sure Stephanie I understand what you are saying, but as studies into EDCs show, its more males that are at risk of feminisation type
issues. Females have a different set of problems with the early onset of puberty. http://www.sensible-alternative.com.au/female-hormones/rise-of-infertility

Early puberty is a health risk for girls, both emotionally and physically. They are forced to deal with adult body issues before they have reached emotional maturity. They are also at a greater lifetime risk for hormone sensitive diseases such as breast cancer and endometriosis.
If anything, boys are even more vulnerable to hormone-disrupting chemicals. For one thing, they are less likely to be born in the first place. Men exposed to chemicals, such as dioxin and PCB's are less likely to father boys. (16) Boys that are born are more likely to have hypospadias, which is a penis malformation caused by too little testosterone. Hypospadias rates have doubled since 1970 (17), (about 1 in 770) and it is believed to be caused by the effect of oestrogen-mimicking chemicals on male foetuses. (18) Other signs of hormonal interference in boys include delayed puberty and abnormally low sperm count.

Kelly DeWinter

12-16-2010, 08:47 PM

30000 babies born in brisbane last year with intersex conditions? Brisbane is 1.5 million people. Birth rate for Australia is 12.47 per 1000 people. So therefore Brisbane should have had about 16000 to 20000 babies. Therefore every baby born in Brisbane would have had to be intersex or showing signs of it. OMG!!

LOL, Allana

I think you highlight how easy it is for erroneous information becomes less reliable then you compare it with actual data. You can spin information to mean anything you want i you take portions of it, it reminds me of 'sound bites'.

I believe the OP reported as a 'fact' "I got told by a very reliable source that there was a staggering 30,000 births of babies with intersex conditions alone last year in Brisbane."

When continual missinformation is posted without checking the facts, credibilty comes in question. theres a real difference between tabloid reporting and a real journalistic approach to writing.

Melody Moore

12-16-2010, 09:13 PM

When continual missinformation is posted without checking the facts, credibilty comes in question. theres a real difference between tabloid reporting and a real journalistic approach to writing.
For your information Kelly, nothing will be published in any article I write without proper research & confirmation about the accuracy of the information published - that is why sometimes it takes a very lengthy period of time before some articles go to press or face possible litigation. My understanding has always been that Journalist are bound by law to report accurately on an article they are publishing and I will be always doing the same in my work. What I am researching here might not go to press for quite sometime yet because of the complexity of such issues. What I have written on this forum does NOT reflect what will be published in my finished news articles. What I write here on this forum is intended to garnish debate and feedback, including more information into such issues that affect the transgendered community. So one cannot question the credibility of me as a journalist & the accuracy of my published articles by looking only at the research side of this topic being carried out on this forum for these reasons. My only agenda here on this forum is to provoke thought & debate.

Sophie_C

12-16-2010, 09:40 PM

I can't agree with this as the reason. I honestly believe it's the exposure to the public. Had the community existed how it does now, I would have transitioned at age 14 or younger. While this might be a factor, it's far more marginal than the effect of seeing people actually "live the dream", so to speak...

Sharon

12-16-2010, 09:53 PM

What I write here on this forum is intended to garnish debate and feedback, including more information into such issues that affect the transgendered community. So one cannot question the credibility of me as a journalist & the accuracy of my published articles by looking only at the research side of this topic being carried out on this forum for these reasons. My only agenda here on this forum is to provoke thought & debate.

This, I hope, concludes the arguing among the parties involved.

Melody, I hope you share the completed article with us when you have finished it. I will be very interested in reading it.

Melody Moore

12-16-2010, 10:22 PM

This, I hope, concludes the arguing among the parties involved.

Melody, I hope you share the completed article with us when you have finished it. I will be very interested in reading it.
I certainly hope so as well. And I will share a link to download a PDF version of the Culture magazine that I will be writing for every two months.

Thank you for all your support.

I can't agree with this as the reason. I honestly believe it's the exposure to the public. Had the community existed how it does now, I would have transitioned at age 14 or younger. While this might be a factor, it's far more marginal than the effect of seeing people actually "live the dream", so to speak...Sophie there are many variations to being transgendered. Some are intersex, some are transsexual, in my case I'm an intersex transsexual because I am transitioning to female because my sex was determined for me as an infant. I was confused about my gender identity as a child, but found myself wanting to transition to female at the age of 15, long before I knew anyone who was transsexual or an other factors that caused me to be influenced in my decisions in someway.

In fact social stigma I encountered at the age of 16 had me repressing my true gender identity to a point I become very homo/transphobic. Studies have already concluded that social environment plays no part in being intersex, transgendered, transsexual, gay, lesbian or bisexual or gender queer and also suggests that endocrine disrupting chemicals (EDCs) needs to be properly investigated. See: http://shb-info.org/sexbrain.html

Summary:

During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in transsexualism. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.

There is no proof that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

See Section on: Sexual orientation: heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality

The apparent impossibility of getting someone to change their sexual orientation is a major argument against the importance of the social environment in the emergence of homosexuality, as well as against the idea that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. The mind boggles at the methods used in the attempt to bring about changes in sexual orientation: hormonal treatments such as castration, administration of testosterone or estrogens (treatments that appeared to affect libido but not sexual orientation); psychoanalysis; apomorphine administered as an emetic in combination with homo-erotic pictures; psychosurgery (lesions in the hypothalamus); electroshock treatment; chemical induction of epileptic insults; and imprisonment. As none of these interventions has led to a well-documented change in sexual orientation (99), there can be little doubt that our sexual orientation is fixed by the time we reach adulthood and is beyond further influence.

Women with gay sons appeared to have an extreme skewing of X-inactivation as compared to mothers without gay sons

See: Concluding Remarks

There is no proof that the social environment after birth has an effect on the development of gender or sexual orientation, while the possible effects on sexual differentiation of the brain by endocrine disrupters in the environment and in medicines given to the pregnant mother should be investigated.LGBTIGQ people come from all walks of life, from various social backgrounds and plays no part in sexual orientation or gender identity. They come from healthy family backgrounds as well as dysfunctional family backgrounds. As with heterosexual couples who have gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender children, Gay couples raise children who are heterosexual. Paedophiles have tried for years to groom children for their own sexual gratification & seem to always fail. The Nurture over Nature approach with Gender Neutrality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer#History) theory proved that social conditioning of gender identity does not work many times since the famous David Reimer case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer). Unlike the late David Reimer, Danni Bear & I are still both living testaments to that fact. So I firmly believe that social environment or conditioning really plays no part in the development of our sexual orientation or gender identity although some influences such as more information now being available might help to unlock what was already there long before we were even born.

Kelly DeWinter

12-17-2010, 02:28 PM

Is this a statement, question, or rebuttal of someone's opinion? I honestly am confused by what you said here? I do think transgendered numbers have been inaccurate as valid statistics are or have been impossible to tabulate due to reluctance to admit that one is transgendered. .....

It was an affirmation that Amielts opinion was as vaild and as anyone elses, it was also a statement as to the general condition of information on the internet as a whole and on forum(s) plural as a whole. Although I said 'a forum' the context was ment in the plural. I have been on other forums with different topics, wether its northwest salmon population, weather patterns or the instance of defective births, when a poster starts to talk about percentages in usualy degenerates into a free for all on who is right and who is wrong. The problem with reading snippets of research papers posted on the internet, is that you do not get the entire picture of what the researcher has found or the LIST of possible conclusions. Access to full Research papers generaly cost between $45.00 to $10,000 dollars. Anyone doing true research will purchase the information before posting it, however sadly that is not the common practice on the internet.

ReineD

12-18-2010, 03:12 PM

when a poster starts to talk about percentages in usualy degenerates into a free for all on who is right and who is wrong. The problem with reading snippets of research papers posted on the internet, is that you do not get the entire picture of what the researcher has found or the LIST of possible conclusions. Access to full Research papers generaly cost between $45.00 to $10,000 dollars. Anyone doing true research will purchase the information before posting it, however sadly that is not the common practice on the internet.

Exactly. So the best that anyone do, is to either say it is their opinion that the percentage of [blank] is [blank] and post links to the data that gives rise to his/her opinion, or post links to a peer reviewed research paper (and not someone else's opinion found in a blog for example). But readers must, as you say, read the paper thoroughly and in context.

I've posted links in the past to Lynne Conway's estimate of TG prevalence (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html) since she states how she comes up with her numbers even though her lower bound estimates may be somewhat hopeful. Still, it is up to the reader to compare what she says to existing research, if the reader has access to such resources.

Kelly DeWinter

12-18-2010, 05:36 PM

Reine;
Lynne Conway is certainly respected withing the LGBT community, It's interesting how the most of the 'information' posted in this thread is linked to the website for Harry Benjamine Syndrome: http://shb-info.org/hbs.html which was started by Charlotte Goier who is a known critic of notables as Lynne Conway and Marci Bowers

Charlotte Goier "She maintains that HBS is an intersex condition developed in the early stages of foetal development, and that an HBS woman is not a transsexual. Initially she claimed that 1:500 was HBS, but has been reducing the frequency and now says that HBS is "an extremely rare condition [1:100,000]" (which would mean that HBS persons are only a fraction of 1% of transsexuals). She is further contentious in that she and her movement has become known for its disparaging of other transgendered persons, even post-ops, and GLBT persons in general."

Sound Familer ?
Full Link.
http://zagria.blogspot.com/2009/03/charlotte-goiar-1972-hbs-activist.html

The more I read about this, it becomes clear that it's a group that almost functions like a movement or religion

Melody Moore

12-18-2010, 06:10 PM

It's interesting how the most of the 'information' posted in this thread is linked to the website for Harry Benjamine Syndrome: http://shb-info.org/hbs.html which was started by Charlotte Goier who is a known critic of notables as Lynne Conway and Marci Bowers..

...The more I read about this, it becomes clear that it's a group that almost functions like a movement or religion
Most of the information in this thread is linked to that one website? that statement is definitely NOT TRUE Kelly!

Most of the information contained in this thread can be found through a variety of sources. There is only one reference I have made to Charlotte Goier's site and that was a link to her HTML version of a research document - Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation by (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7542/is_200901/ai_n32334584/?tag=content;col1)Dr. Swaab, Dick F, and Dr. Alicia Garcia-Falgueras, CIC Edizioni Internatzionaly 2009 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7542/is_200901/ai_n32334584/?tag=content;col1). I also have the original .pdf version of this research document here on my computer, the link to Charlotte Goier's site was only a matter of convenience and nothing more. While there are discrepancies in the numbers that Charlotte Goier has quoted into how many people actually suffer HBS, the actual statistics isn't something that I was interested in discussing with this thread because they are impossible to calculate in the first place.

And for your information I also do support the belief from the research that HBS is an intersex condition developed in the early stages of
foetal development, and also over the fact that the gender identity disorder manifests itself at such a young age in those who are affected.

As for your claim that 'a group that almost functions like a movement or religion is behind this', I believe you are way out of line to even be bringing that type of suggestion into this thread. I am my own person who has read a lot of the information available from a wide variety of sources including very credible medical & scientific sources and formed my own opinions. I am only asking others to do the same and make up their own minds about the effects of EDCs and the research now going on (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?143339-Surge-in-Intersex-TG-amp-TS-Numbers-Something-in-the-food-amp-water-perhaps&p=2347377&viewfull=1#post2347377) into issues of intersexuality, along with the feminisation of males & the decrease of male fertility rates.