Opinions on Dating a CD

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Responses from all are welcome. Not just gg's.

I have dated a CD the past 18 months. He made it clear from the first contact that he was CD and wanted someone to accept him and love him for who he is, which I did. I asked three things of him during our relationship.

1. That we go to counseling so that we could learn to communicate as healthy couple. Not b/c he is a CD but b/c he was recently divorced.
2. That he not speak with 2 of his female friends any longer. 1 of which was married and I felt it wrong to be deceiving her partner and the other b/c he had revealed intimate details of our relationship and made me uncomfortable.
3. That he set boundaries with his ex wife so that she did not always control his schedule so that he wasn't always having to break plans with me at the last minute to keep his son. I asked him to please explain to her that she needed to let him know in advance of schedule changes and have a backup plan/babysitter for when she did have to change the schedule on a whim.

He denied all three of these requests so after the last abrupt schedule change at the last minute, I ended things. I didn't end things on a whim but this is the nut shell version of why. This has all been happening over the course of time that we dated. He has either had to leave my house b/c his ex would call up and say she had to go here or there. His comment was "we weren't doing anything important so what's the big deal". The big deal is that our time is our time no matter what we are doing and he should have enough backbone to not cater to his ex-wife or he needs to go back to her.

I was excluded from b/c his family or ex would never accept anyone he dated. Times that he has taken time from me to go and work at his dad's house on things that could have waited until another time, etc. I could go on and on, but I feel you get the picture.

My question to the women that date CD's ,or any man, is how would you feel if a man told you that you must accept him and love him for who he is but refused to work with you on things that you needed him to do and accept for you?

Would this turn you against dating a CD again? I am trying to stay objective and tell myself that CD's are all different. However, there is a part of me that is so turned off by the thought of ever dating another CD. Right now, I couldn't even phantom the idea of it. I still am very accepting of those who are CD's. I just don't know that I can ever date another one. Once bitten, twice shy!

[Amy Lynn3]

The simple answer from me would be...you treat a CD just like you would a non cder. Two standards do not apply here, if your cder is not fully into your relationship and not dropped the ex, then drop the cder. You must look after yourself first. That advise applies to all people, not just gg's, men or cders.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I just found it hypocritical that he expected unconditional acceptance of his CD but was not willing to meet any requests that I asked of him.

[minalost]

A dumb a** is a dumb a**, crossdresser or not. Just don't assume all crossdressers are as flakey as this guy sounds!

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Thank you. This has been a long time coming and was difficult. I do love this man but I will never love anyone enough to be treated wrongly again. He was all about pushing me to open up to him and discuss things with him until I actually started letting my guard down and telling him how I felt. Then he wanted no part of it. He went to approximately 3 to 5 counseling sessions and refused to go back. I pretty much knew then that things were doomed. Ironically, he was willing to go to several different counselors when he was married. I guess our relationship just wasn't important enough to try to save as it was with a woman that "he said" treated him like shi*.

As a previous poster said, I have to look after me.

It was also hurtful for him to brag about all the women he's been with. He would tell me that there was no point in being with someone that couldn't do everything he wanted b/c it was too easy for him to get women. I heard about all his conquests from high school til he married and then from the time he divorced until he met me. He is more about quantity than quality. That got painfully old after a while. No woman wants to hear about all the women her bf has been with. Don't brag to me about all the notches in your bed post then try to convince me that you are "making love" to me.

[giuseppina]

Hello WsprsOnTheWInd,

On the information you've provided, you are justified in breaking things off. I would not accept that sort of thing from a prospective spouse.

While crossdressing is a convenient scapegoat for marriage breakdown, there are usually other reasons beneath the surface. It seems to me his previous marriage failed for reasons other than crossdressing.

Please don't let this clown sour you on us. His behavior has nothing to do with the fact he is a crossdresser. There are plenty of us around who abhor the treatment you've been given.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Thank you for your support Giuseppina. I am sure there are other reasons the marriage ended.

I guess the way it all has come down is so different than when we first started dating. I told him for months that I didn't think I could be what he wanted me to be as far as the CD goes and the fact that he didn't like me having my dogs in the house. He would tell me that it was okay and compromises could be made as long as I accepted and loved him. Then in the last few months he has made the comments that if I can't fully particpate then it's too easy for him to find women that will. Now, CD or not, IMO I would rather have someone love me and accept me for who I am , and participate to their level of comfort, than to try to find someone that is going to be everything I want them to be. Lets face it, we're never going to find someone that gives us everything we want in a relationship. It just seems that he did an about face from all the things he told me in the beginning.

He also told me that he was married 27 years and didn't get to dress the way he wanted too and that if I didn't have the routine down after a year then I probably never would and he wasn't waiting another 27 years. Now, I am from the Bible Belt and some of you all know about the strict religious, conservative up bringing that most of us here get. I am one of those people. I was introduced to a totally new lifestyle, accepted it, embraced it, studied it, talked to him and others excessively about it and he expected me to have it all down in a year. Yet, over and over I was told how I was the selfish one.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I was just informed in a PM that my message seemed to be sent out to gg's only. I welcome all responses not just from ggs. Sorry for the confusion and misunderstanding. I did edit that in the original post. Blonde moment! lol

Ah, who am I kidding....I have a blonde LIFE! lol

[Karren H]

I've been married for 34 years and I think being in a relationship is a partnership where both have to work together towards a goal.... Each respecting each others wishes and resolving issues where conflicts arrise.... I think you were right ending it.... A bad realtionship is a bad relationship no mater what clothing each party likes to wear.... Mine has had some rocky times but we worked our way through them....

and I learned a long time ago.... When the answer doesn't equal her answer.... the answer equals her answer... lol

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Karren, I LOVE your quote about sarcasm. That sounds so like something I would say. I'm going to use that. lol

He has no intention of hearing what I have to say and taking my concerns seriously. He minimized my feelings and invalidated them and always turned it back around on me. The more I think about it the more I realize it was all about him. He never respected me or loved me. I had to accept his lifestyle; had to agree to live in the town he does b/c he was unwilling to move and had to agree to put my dogs outside (they've been in the house with me for years). I had to do all the changing and he refused me everything I asked of him. He made life hell for me about my dogs yet his son has a rabbit in the house. He wanted no part of a professional counselor's opinion yet he fought tooth and nail to remain friends with a Xanax addict who was planning to marry a man from the Netherlands that she's never met. Yes, that's someone that I would want to confide in and take advice from...NOT!

He would list out everything that he's done for me. He would get mad at me b/c I wasn't willing to drive an hour to and from work every day then half way back to work in the evenings to visit him at his house and said it was unfair of me to expect him to drive to my house all the time. Thing is, I didn't expect him to do it and told him so on more than one occasion. What happened to the days that a man wanted to go the extra mile for a woman and take care of her? He bragged about how he always took care of his wife but when it came to me all I ever got was lists of things he's done for me and told how selfish I was. He even told me my dogs had Stockholm Syndrom b/c I deliberately kept them away from others so they would love only me. That's the most rediculious thing I've ever heard of. They are socialized with everyone that comes in my home. That isn't even what Stockholm Syndrom is in the first place.

I have a masters degree in mental health counseling. Yeah, the more I think about this the funnier it gets.

He even had the nerve to tell me that I was a bad mother and that I would never be able to have a relationship with anyone. My children are grown and I didn't even know him when I was raising them so how would he know this? I got ridiculed b/c I didn't want him dressing in female clothing and parading around in my yard in front of the neighbors children or b/c I wouldn't go to the mall with him and have him change into all female clothing while there.

Lets hear from some of you CD's. Do you respect your GG's boundaries or do you just replace her every time she don't do everything you want or demand of her?

[Diane Smith]

There is nothing in your original message to suggest that any of the problems in this relationship were related to his CDing per se. Rather, they mostly seem to stem from his recent divorce and his inability to completely extract himself from that previous relationship. The betrayal of your confidences to other female friends also implies that he was not completely ready to commit to you exclusively. Neither of these problems is unusual and they're certainly not unique to CDs, but I think you did the right thing by ending the relationship. On the bright side, many of us here appreciate a woman like you who is willing and able to support a crossdressing partner and even, ideally, accept it as a positive aspect of his/her personality. I hope this bad experience doesn't dissuade you from maintaining this open attitude in your future relationships.

I wish you well in finding your ideal partner, whether a crossdresser or not.

- Diane

[Karren H]

Lets hear from some of you CD's. Do you respect your GG's boundaries or do you just replace her every time she don't do everything you want or demand of her?

I'd have to check but I'm pretty sure "She who must be obeyed" wouldn't let me replace her! :D

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Karren, I have a coffee cup that says that.

Diane, the fact that he was a CD was NOT the issue at all. The issue I had with it was that he expected me to accept it and embrace it yet he wasn't willing to accept me. He comes from a very delusional thinking familiy and he and his ex-wife are no exception.

Of course, being a mental health therapist, I knew better than to get involved with someone so newly divorced in the first place. I told him as much but he said he had been emotionally divorced from her for 5 years. That has been proven to NOT be true at all.

[Karren H]

he said he had been emotionally divorced from her for 5 years.

Well we crossdressers are habitual liars ya know!!! Just ask my wife... sigh...........

[Marissa]

Wow, you spent a lot of time here telling us what was wrong in the relationship but just your first post was enough to say he was not the right one for you. And as others stated, it had nothing to do with his dressing. That is just the person he is..and still hang on to the ex. You made compromises and expected the same..so its sad when that doesn't happen.

Think that is where my last marriage had to come to an end since I gave up alot of myself and not much in return.

Eitherway, please do not let it be the bases for not dating another cd. Some reason you were willing to accept his dressing..maybe next time you will get the other half that you deserve :)

Hugs,
Marissa

[tgcowgirl]

Hi WOTW,
There are thoughtless, selfish %^#@ from all across the gender spectrum. A relationship involves 2 people, and give and take on both sides. You were VERY giving in the fact that you accepted his crossdressing. Thats a biggie. Big mistake on his part to not realize what he had. Sounds like a very dysfuntional, self centered person. Not all CDers are like this. Some of us are very giving, understanding, and respectful of the feelings of the people we are in relationships with. Any relationship has boundries. Of course, the more at peace,and comfortable a person is with being CD, the more likely they will be better relationship material. You made the right choice. You sound like a very intelligent, caring person who deserves way better than being treated like a doormat.
Take Care

[ReineD]

What happened to the days that a man wanted to go the extra mile for a woman and take care of her?

Hi Wsprs, welcome to the forum! I have a slightly different take on your situation, from a GG POV. :)

The above quote says it all to me. Your relationship didn't work out because you and he had entirely different expectations of one another.

Often in this forum, I read stories from CDs who are recently divorced, and who swear that the next relationship will be with a woman who fully supports the CDing. They've had their fill with having to suppress the inner femme. But, the CDs are not just after someone who will accept them for who they are and be happy with them dressed at home, in bed (possibly), and who will want to go out with them dressed. They also want to relinquish some of the traditional "guy who always drives on the date, opens the door, pays the bill and otherwise does all the other traditional guy things" role. Lol. This is not a bad thing, but I swear that CDs are among the most egalitarian partners you'll ever meet. :) I don't want to paint with a broad brush, but you'd be surprised at how many CDs long for an assertive woman who knows her mind, and who is not afraid to take charge. This helps them be true to their inner, more passive feminine selves. Bring on the feminists! :D

I wonder if your ex bf didn't have these expectations, even if he wasn't able to put it in so many words. And your requirements were to be appreciated of course, and to be made to feel a priority in his life, not unlike a woman who is pursued by a regular, non-CD guy. I don't blame you for this. It took me a while to understand my SO's mindset, after having been in a 30 year relationship with a traditional, take-charge kinda guy who, when he sees something sexy, wants to see it on me and not himself. But, the take-charge kinda guys also have their own, but entirely different (overbearing) issues. I'd much rather be with my more egalitarian SO. And we can both wear the sexy things.

As to the baggage that comes along with exes and kids, I agree that he shouldn't have continually broken plans with you at the last minute. But, I'm in the situation your ex is in right now. The past chapter in my life is closing very slowly and much of it is beyond my control at the moment (a painfully long divorce process). The loose threads are slowly being tied up and thank God I do have a SO who understands the quandary I'm put in sometimes when a child pops in from out of town unannounced. I've not broken plans with my SO, but we've had occasional last minute plan alterations. This is life. The importance is that he knows the sometimes unsettled nature of things frustrate me just as much as him, and we do talk it all out. This part of my life is improving, although slowly and I thank my stars for having a flexible SO when it comes to accommodating the other people in my life over which I have no control. I'm not making excuses here, just stating a very real fact about a prior life that is winding down more slowly than my relationship with my SO ramped up.

The other females in his life: I agree he had no business telling intimate details about you to her. This is NOT OK. If my SO did this, I'd wonder to whom he feels closest emotionally, me or the other female friend.

[docrobbysherry]

Wrprs, as Reine states so well above, a nearly 50 y/o man coming out of a long marriage, is bound to have LOTS OF BAGGAGE! I'm NOT making excuses for him, but it sounds like he doesn't want to, or is incapable of being involved with someone in an exclusive relationship now! It may take some time for him to find himself and settle into the NEW LIFESTYLE he should eventually find!

Look him up in 2 years. I'll bet his circumstances will be much different than they r now!

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Please understand that I am not trying to be one-sided here. As I have told him, I do understand with a small child that things do come up unexpectedly. But, NOT constantly. My issue is that I asked him months ago, before his ex went back to her seasonal job to please talk to her and let her know to have a back up plan for when she had these schedule changes come up and he refused to do so.

He was always able to and encouraged too dress in femme with me. We went out to clubs where he was fully dressed several times and I actually enjoyed it. So, I didn't feel that it was too much to ask that he not dress in front of the children in my neighborhood and that he respect that I was not comfortable taking him to the mall and him changing into femme clothing while we were there. He took great pains to keep things hidden from his family and friends but he expected me to be willing open to parading it around in front of others. I have always been a private person and never liked to be embarassed in public. I did not feel that the few things I requested of him was asking too much.

[BRANDYJ]

Wsprs, I agree with all the posts before me about this guy's lack of commitment, lack of compromise and his demands about your dogs npot being allowed in the house. That issue alone tells me all I need to know about this guy. In the first place I am a dog lover and realize to many, including you, that dogs become part of the family as much as any human family members. He foolishly made an issue of your dogs being allowed in your own home??? Secondly, my guard goes up about anyone that feels that way about dogs and their relationship to those that have them. How unfair, unrealistic, unfeeling can a guy be to ask you t6o keep your dogs outside!
When he used the word "compromise" he meant as long as you do everything his way, things will be fine. What did he do to accommodate you, your wishes and lifestyle? Clearly, he did nothing! You gave, he took, and took and he cared only about his desires and wishes. Like others have said, it has little to do with the fact that he is a CD. Sadly, he is typical of a selfish man that thinks women are here only to pleasure, serve and please a man...a Neanderthal from the dark ages.
Now add that he expected you to go to the mall and make him change into complete female mode of dress and parade in public together, totally disgusts me! He could care less how embarrassed, humiliated or uncomfortable this would make you. I am one that believes my crossdressing is a private thing and it is my responsibility to keep it private and away from those that might be uncomfortable around me dressed in feminine mode. If I was 98% passable, my feelings "might" be different. But I am not into public humiliation and I do care what others think....Especially the one woman I love and care about. He demonstrated total disregard for your comfort level, not to mention those around him like children and neighbors in your neighborhood. Not all CD's are like this at all.
I for one am happy you found out what type of narcissistic, arrogant, selfish, foolish person this guy is. I am sorry your education and learning about us that are CD's came from a very poor example. I wish you well dear friend.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I realize that I have made some lengthy posts. Journaling is very therapeutic as I am always telling my clients. I also realize that him being 50 years old and soon out of a divorce would mean there would be baggage, this was another reason I felt counseling was a good idea for us. He hadn't been in the dating world for years and he wasn't used to dating the personality type that I am.

I understand his need to step out of the dominate male role as one poster stated and let his gg take the lead. I was willing to do that and he had ample opportunity when he was with me to dress and be in femme.

[BRANDYJ]

Wsprs, Please ask to be invited to FAB, a forum only for Females At Birth. Your insight, your experiences and opinions would be greatly appreciated by other GG's that are in relationships with us CD's. Reine D. above is one of the moderators and can invite you to join. I for one hope you visit often and add to the list of wonderful GG's that offer advice and opinions in our MTF forums. Of course none of us CDs can even read what you ave to say over in FAB. But I think you will be a very welcome new member there.
So please consider staying with us and join in on the many topics of interest. Most of us CD's adore, admire and respect all our GG members.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Thank you Brandy. I will certainly do that. One does need all the friends they can get.

[SamanthaS]

You deserve better, cd or not :) Keep looking for someone without the hang-ups.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

As many others have said, the fact that he CD'd seems to have nothing to do with why you broke it off with him. There are plenty of CD'ers out there who aren't divorced, who would consider counseling and also who would be more firm with their ex.

Having said that, now I want to play devil's advocate. First off, maybe he didn't want to go to counseling because he already had done it with his ex, and since she is his ex, in his mind it clearly didn't work. It probably reminds him of a pretty rotten time in his life. If he went with you three times, that means he gave it a real shot even though it was clearly something he didn't want to do.

Secondly, I don't care how accepting a woman is with my crossdressing, I would be really hesitant to agree to drop my friends. Especially for the first reason. So she's married? Were they having an affair? How is it deceitful to her partner for her to have a male friend that she's not having an affair with? One of my best friends from high school is married and I often spent time with her when her husband wasn't around, and there was nothing inappropriate about it. In my opinion, any relationship where an ultimatum is set to never see a certain friend again is doomed because there's clearly no trust there.

Third, while there is something to be said about not being abused by your ex, the thing that you sort of glossed over is that he was getting time with his son. I'm sorry but he's a parent and that does always take precedence over being a boyfriend. You didn't say in your post how they share custody, but if he doesn't get totally half custody he probably doesn't want to turn down any opportunity to spend time with his kid.

You say his ex tried to control his life from one side, and his mama from the other, and from the sound of things, you were trying to do it from a third side, so it probably is best for both of you that you broke it off. He clearly isn't the man you want and need him to be and both of you deserve someone who can be the partner they want and need.

[mklinden2010]

ask why?

[BRANDYJ]

Love isn't everything...



In your OP, you didn't say much about how much time the Cding was taking, any "weird" things he was doing related to Cding, etc.

L

mklinden2010, you must have missed this: I got ridiculed b/c I didn't want him dressing in female clothing and parading around in my yard in front of the neighbors children or b/c I wouldn't go to the mall with him and have him change into all female clothing while there.

Weird enough for me.

[mklinden2010]

Or, no.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

To the poster that said that I was trying to control his life, that is not true at all. I was very undemanding of him. I never asked him to give up his friends. I asked him to give up the one that was hiding things from her husband and the one that he had given intimate details of our relationship too, which included him forwarding my emails to him on to her. I didn't feel it was right b/c he was talking to a married woman that was HIDING it from her husband and this woman had indicated to him that she wanted the relationship to be more than just friends talking. IMO if you can't tell your parther/mate/spouse what you are doing then it's wrong. I was simply tired of being last in his life when he was telling me I was the most important person in his world but his actions said otherwise.

His situation is not the typical getting the child every other weekend with his son. He has his son three nights one week and four nights the next week. He is never lacking for time with his son. He has had his son every day most of the last three weeks. SO, his situation is not the typical non-custodial parent situation. His ex wife only gets the son 55 more days per year than him and to date he has had the child more days out of the year than she has had him.

So, no, I never tried to control him. I asked for very little, I was flexible with his schedule and I took a back seat to everybody else. Sorry, but where I come from we are taught that you nurture your relationship with your significant other. You don't constantly cater to the whims of the exwife when he had months to speak with her about getting a back up plan in place for a sitter. She would literally call him up on Friday evening and say "oh, I have to leave the state" at 8:00 AM tomorrow. Now I know full well that she did not just find out on Friday at 8:00 PM that she was going to have to go out of state at the last minute. It wasn't that kind of job where it was spur of the moment stuff.


His CD'ing never was the problem in the relationship. My point was that he expected me to accept him and his lifestyle completely but everything that I had asked of him he denied. So, he had been to counseling with his ex-wife? I am not his ex-wife but a whole different person, exaclly my point. He tried to treat our relationship the way he treated issues in his marriage. We both needed counseling to help us learn to deal with and adjust to each other. His refusal to go told me that he didn't care if it was important to me or not. So, why should he expect me or others to accept him and participate in his dressing b/c it's important to him when the things that were important to me was minimized and insignificant?

I participated in his dressing b/c it was important to him because I love him. Even if he felt counseling was a waste of time for him, because he loved me, he should have been willing to go.

[ReineD]

mklinden2010, you must have missed this: I got ridiculed b/c I didn't want him dressing in female clothing and parading around in my yard in front of the neighbors children or b/c I wouldn't go to the mall with him and have him change into all female clothing while there.

Weird enough for me.

Brandy, I took it that Wsprs understandably felt awkward about her bf leaving the house dressed to get into the car, not that the bf was in fact parading in front of the front yard dressed just for the effect.

There is a risk when leaving the house dressed that the neighbors will see, which is a huge concern for those who wish to keep it private. My SO always looks up and down the street to see if there is anyone around, and then she gets into the car very quickly.

Also, when my SO leaves her house dressed, she doesn't look like "him", so anyone who is out in the neighborhood mowing their lawn, for example, won't necessarily put 2 and 2 together. But, when she's in doubt, she'll sometimes put a big shirt over herself to cover the femme figure.

Wsprs will need to clarify though, whether she meant her bf getting in the car, or if the bf did like to hang out in the front yard dressed. If he used the excuse, "I'm just going out to get the newspaper, or the mail, or whatever", then it is a boundary they might have worked on.

As to changing at the mall, if a CD is not allowed, or feels uncomfortable leaving the house dressed, it is challenging to find an appropriate place in which to change.

[Rianna Humble]

I agree with the posters who have said that it was not the CD'ing that was the problem in your relationship so you should try not to let a bad relationship with a selfish ass put you off from getting to know other cross-dressers.

I'm sorry to say that, for me, mklinden's post comes across as being from a stereotypical male point of view and I couldn't disagree with it more.

To answer your question from the original post, I wouldn't date a cross-dresser but for a very different reason - I'm not into men.

[sandra-leigh]

I got ridiculed b/c I didn't want him dressing in female clothing and parading around in my yard in front of the neighbors children or b/c I wouldn't go to the mall with him and have him change into all female clothing while there.

Weird enough for me.

I do not ridicule my wife for feeling uncomfortable being around me in public when I'm dressed -- that's not kosher.

However, I do not believe that I have a responsibility to hide my dressing away from the eyes of people who might be offended by it. There is no Right in Canada or the USA to not feel offended by members of the public.

There are still some people who are offended that Black people are "allowed" to live in "our" neighbourhood, or shop in "our" stores -- is it the responsibility of Black people to voluntarily segregate themselves so as to avoid offending such people? Is it the responsibility of all young males to wear business-type suits and short haircuts in public to avoid offending the people who find punk or rap or hip-hop styles "offensive", and to avoid offending the many people who find longer hair on a male "offensive" ? Is it the responsibility of homosexuals to refrain from public displays of affection (e.g., holding hands) because someone might be offended?

Christians may be offended if I do not wear an obvious cross; Jewish people may be offended if I do wear a cross; when I'm Dressed, Muslims may be offended if I do not wear a head covering; Hindu may be offended if my feet are pointed towards them. Vetrans may be offended if I do not wear a poppy at this time of year (though more likely it would be a member of the public who was never in the Forces, offended because I wasn't "supporting our troops").

Here in Canada, I have the Right to wear in public any clothes that are consistent with health standards and which do not expose my "primary sexual characteristics". Anyone who doesn't like my clothes is free to look away or to leave.

The typical interest I get from children, even when I am out obviously gender-bending, is this: no attention at all, or a glance at me followed less than 2 seconds later by turning their attention to something else. Sometimes I get smiles. The only negative attention I can recall getting has been from groups of boys busy playing up their macho-ness to each other (or to the public.) Number of times I've seen a parent react to "protect innocent eyes" from the sight of me: zero. Number of children who have pointed me out to an accompanying adult: not zero, but very low (3 ?)

You know what is much more traumatic, on average, to children? This: seeing a clown. The number of children who are afraid of clowns is much higher than one would expect.




Last, I have NEVER gone anywhere to change clothes, much less a public mall. The mall is a place of business - it's not a costume party nor "all comers" exhibition.

You want to crossdress, then have the courage of your convictions. Put on YOUR clothes at home and go out about your business as you normally would. "Dressing up" to go for midnight walks in the park, or, hurried strolls at the mall, is just being dishonest with your SO, yourself, and everyone else.

I'd be happy to put on my clothes at home prior to going out to the mall. Sometimes I manage to do that, sometimes I take my clothes with me. I am not ashamed to be seen cross-dressed in my neighbourhood.

So why do I sometimes change in the mall? Because we have personal care attendants for a third person who lives with us, and my wife has asked that I not dress obviously in front of them. It is difficult to find a good personal care attendant, so I compromise, and change just before stepping out the door, or change in the yard (weather permitting), or change at the mall. Using the "family" room when one is available -- but bluntly walking in to the men's room in a dress or skirt (to change back) if there is no "family" room.

In addition, as I take the bus, sometimes whether I am able to change into my obvious clothes or not before I get out the door is just a matter of making the bus on time.

Note: I sometimes go out the door in a skirt or dress and wear that on the bus to close to my work, and then change to less-obvious clothes in a department store washroom. I do push the boundaries at work, but my agreement with HR is that I will give them notice and time to work out a plan of action (memos, training) if I decide to wear skirts or dresses to work. It isn't precisely clear to me at this time whom I am being "dishonest" with about my dressing in this situation. Not that I don't have feelings of dishonesty that I would like to remedy by wearing skirts and dresses to work, but those feelings of dishonesty are not about the fact that I wear women's clothes (cuz I do that at work every day, visible to everyone I see): my feelings of dishonesty have to do with not more fully expressing my gender identity... which is something beyond the "if it is just clothes" hypothesis that leads to your admonishment.

[mklinden2010]

I agree with the posters who have said that it was not the CD'ing that was the problem in your relationship so you should try not to let a bad relationship with a selfish ass put you off from getting to know other cross-dressers.

I'm sorry to say that, for me, mklinden's post comes across as being from a stereotypical male point of view and I couldn't disagree with it more.

To answer your question from the original post, I wouldn't date a cross-dresser but for a very different reason - I'm not into men.


Which one and how?

MKL

[renee k]

I totally agree with your POV on relationships. Two people should work at it as a partnership. And should have give and take to find common ground. I don't think your at fault, from what I have read. He needed to be out of a relationship for a longer time than he was. Just to clear his head and maybe mature a little bit. Plus date before entering into another committed relationship. You do deserve better and there are plenty of good ones out there.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Having said that, now I want to play devil's advocate.
LOL, People who play devil's advocate typicly get burned, so be prepared.

First off, maybe he didn't want to go to counseling because he already had done it with his ex, and since she is his ex, in his mind it clearly didn't work. It probably reminds him of a pretty rotten time in his life. If he went with you three times, that means he gave it a real shot even though it was clearly something he didn't want to do.
3 times is not a fair shot, you cannot resolve a grown persons issues in 3 sessions, heck a lot of times 3 sessions you are just getting used to opening up with a counselor.

Secondly, I don't care how accepting a woman is with my crossdressing, I would be really hesitant to agree to drop my friends. Especially for the first reason. So she's married? Were they having an affair? How is it deceitful to her partner for her to have a male friend that she's not having an affair with? One of my best friends from high school is married and I often spent time with her when her husband wasn't around, and there was nothing inappropriate about it. In my opinion, any relationship where an ultimatum is set to never see a certain friend again is doomed because there's clearly no trust there.
When you become married and your wifes bbf is male who spends time with her when you are not around, i'd lay odds, you would RAPIDLY change your opinion.

Third, while there is something to be said about not being abused by your ex, the thing that you sort of glossed over is that he was getting time with his son. I'm sorry but he's a parent and that does always take precedence over being a boyfriend. You didn't say in your post how they share custody, but if he doesn't get totally half custody he probably doesn't want to turn down any opportunity to spend time with his kid.
Blended family's take time to work things out, when it goes well its golden, oft times it does not go well, and you get situations as described here.

.

All relationships have areas that make one side or the other uncomfortable. Part of sucessful marriages is navigating the 'compromise' obstackal course, without running into the 'wall' of stubborness.

I'd guess by your post that you are not married, never have been , and do not have kids, all of which will chave how you view things.

I like the fact that you have put a lot of thought into your reply, but by the posts a lot of people here differ in opinion

[WsprsOnTheWind]

It was his unwillingness to consider my feelings in the issues I had. Loving someone means hearing them out and trying to work with them even if you feel that their issues are invalid. It is not blatently refusing to even listen or be willing to try to work through it. It's funny, the first year or so we were together he was forever pushing me to talk to him, to open up and tell him what I felt, and that we could work through anything as long as I would just discuss things. When I did that's when he started turning on me. He was all about me opening up and talking as long as it was about dressing or sissy talk. He wasn't interested in who I am or what I felt as a person at all.

Kelly, thank you for finally coming in and posting here. I agree, 3-4 counselings sessions isn't even enough to get started much less decide to quit. I had forwarned him that counseling got very uncomfortable at times but that is when it is helping the most.

Also, I was very careful to keep male friends at arms distance when I was dating him. I did not talk to them on the phone or go out with them. IMO I would rather put my friends on the back burner (it's called prioritizing) to nurture a relationship with someone I could spend the rest of my life with instead of pushing that person away defending friends that aren't going to be there holding my had when I'm taking my last breath. I guess what is important to me isn't important to others. I


PS: Please understand that I love this man with all my heart and would have moved heaven and earth to make it work.

[mklinden2010]

Be do be do.

[ReineD]

Wsprs, it's hard to present an objective view of a relationship that's gone bad. I know. I've spoken at length about my ex in FAB, so of course I'll talk about the things that were hurtful and this does affect how I present things. People reading my posts will take my side of things.

But, there are always two sides to a story. I hope you don't feel put upon that I tried to wade through the "he said, she said" parts of your posts to get to the place in the middle. Most people here will tell you that I try to be objective with everyone's posts, all the time.

That said, if you do come to this forum and post the situation from your POV, of course you'll get people to agree that he wasn't a very nice guy. But, if he came in here and posted his side of things, he'd get a forum full of people to agree with him too.

This is why one-sided threads about how awful the exes were are seldom productive in extracting the things that might have been improved upon on both sides, in order to help make the relationship with the next SO more successful. :)

I'm glad you're here, and I hope you continue to come back. But, I don't know that your thread is so much about wanting to understand the CDing as it is about airing your griefs, even if they are well deserved.

:hugs:

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Yes, I realize that you are only hearing my side and his would be completely different. My original question was to anyone that might have been through something similar and if it turned them off to dating CD's because of it. I haven't really expected validation, agreement or disagreement.

In the end here, you wanted a relationship and a life with someone, he wanted/wants a companion while he deals with his own stuff, his own way.

[Kelly DeWinter]

I'm going to take a stab at the OP Title "Opinion's on dating a CD"

IF I were to date a CD, I would like to be able to:

. Have the right to voice my opinions in a calm conversation after my initial 'freak out' period.
. Have the right to my feelings without being made to feel guilty for having them.
. Be included on the decision's reguarding who is told.
. Be included in all decisions reguarding going further then just wearing clothes.
. Have my physical/emotional/spiritual needs as a man/woman without including your CD persona.
. Shop for clothes with you for just me.
. Have it understood that I have the right to change my opinion on all issues like you do.
. Not be considered unsupportive because i disagree.

and if I were married to a CD who has finaly told me after X number of years.
. Give me time to think
. Give me space to think.
. Have the right to get over my initial freaking out period.
. Have you understand that the shame and guilt you have lived with for XX years, has just become mine in XX seconds.
. Give me time to get a list of a Million Questions togeather
. Right to suggest or try counseling for you,me,us.
. Be completely open and honest reguarding this secret you have kept from me.

and as an aside.

. If i tell you it doesn't look good on you, I want you to BELIEVE me when I tell you it doed NOT look good on you.


This would be my inital list.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

At this point, I probably would not date another CD. I may feel differently in time however.

[BRANDYJ]

Kelly, I like your list. Well done.
But you left one out. That is don't ever ask me to leave my dogs outside as that is not an option. ( still can't get over that one...sorry) But I'm one of those that believes dogs do in fact become more then just a pet, they become family. How insensitive, thoughtless and inconsiderate can one person be? That alone tells me this guy would not make a good partner for anyone.

I simply do not understand how someone can say they love someone, want to be a partner to someone, yet make demands that they must know hurt, humiliate or otherwise be anything but a compromise.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Brandy,

Keep in mind you know more of the details of this story as you have been there to watch it unfold from the start. Yes, that was hypocritical to give me hell over my dogs when he himself has a rabbit inside. I love my dogs just like they are family and he could never understand that.

He made the comment that dogs destroy things. My dogs have never chewed anything up or destroyed anything since he has know me. However, just last week I observed his 9 year old son using his brand new sofa for a trampoline. I sat there and thougth to myself that if either of my girls had done something like that I would have let them know real fast that is no way to respect furniture that is not cheap. My dogs never jump up and down on my furniture or break things. We won't discuss the one that got stuck under a building last week and had to be rescued. lol

[BRANDYJ]

Brandy,

Keep in mind you know more of the details of this story as you have been there to watch it unfold from the start. Yes, that was hypicritical to give me hell over my dogs when he himself has a rabbit inside. I love my dogs just like they are family and he could never understand that.

He made the comment that dogs destroy things. My dogs have never chewed anything up or destroyed anything since he has know me. However, just last week I observed his 9 year old son using his brand new sofa for a trampoline. I sat there and thougth to myself that if either of my girls had done something like that I would have let them know real fast that is no way to respect furniture that is not cheap. My dogs never jump up and down on my furniture or break things. We won't discuss the one that got stuck under a building last week and had to be rescued. lol

Wsprs, I do know more details then anyone else here. I tried to respond as if I did not know you anymore then any other poster. Not sure if you wanted others to know that I've watched this relationship and it's constant roller coaster ride of ups and downs since day one.
Yes, I do know more facts about how one sided this relationship was. Just so others know, Wsprs and I met on another site that has forums. I wrote to her shortly after she posted about just starting dating a CD and how supportive she was. Now bare in mind, that other site is mostly or very mainstream and not open to alternate lifestyles. So it was brave of her to even reach out and give us CDer's support as she did. All of you would have been happy to read her viewpoint of us being transgendered. I wrote to her complimenting her for her effort to learn, research and understand about gender issues... that's how we met. So she has been a good friend since.
If it helps her to vent and journal her bad experience here, I am in full support of it. I only feel slightly bad, but understand why Wsprs said she's never be in a relationship with another CD. But of course that can change in time if the right gentleman that happens to be a CD comes along. I can only hope that collectively we can show her we are not all just a bunch of weird fetishist that care only about their being lost in the pink fog. Most of us have more respect and understanding toward GG's then most of the male population. We sincerely appreciate them and want to make them happy. A relationship is supposed to be a two way street of give and take. This guy just took with little thought of what Wsprs wanted, felt, needed, cared about, and wanted. If he showed half as much love and understanding as Wsprs did, he would have all he most any Cd would ever dream of having in a partner.

[KarenCDFL]

I would have to comment that he was an extremely selfish individual. You did the right thing by ending it.

In my opinion your ex found a Goldmine when he met you and he could have least compromised on at least one or two of the three items on your list to show he had some respect for you.

If he comes back crying, sends him on his way. This will save you the time of leaving him a second time.

[ReineD]

I'm going to take a stab at the OP Title "Opinion's on dating a CD"

IF I were to date a CD, I would like to be able to:

. Have the right to voice my opinions in a calm conversation after my initial 'freak out' period.
. Have the right to my feelings without being made to feel guilty for having them.
. Be included on the decision's reguarding who is told.
. Be included in all decisions reguarding going further then just wearing clothes.
. Have my physical/emotional/spiritual needs as a man/woman without including your CD persona.
. Shop for clothes with you for just me.
. Have it understood that I have the right to change my opinion on all issues like you do.
. Not be considered unsupportive because i disagree.

and if I were married to a CD who has finaly told me after X number of years.
. Give me time to think
. Give me space to think.
. Have the right to get over my initial freaking out period.
. Have you understand that the shame and guilt you have lived with for XX years, has just become mine in XX seconds.
. Give me time to get a list of a Million Questions togeather
. Right to suggest or try counseling for you,me,us.
. Be completely open and honest reguarding this secret you have kept from me.

and as an aside.

. If i tell you it doesn't look good on you, I want you to BELIEVE me when I tell you it doed NOT look good on you.

Beautifully said, Kelly, especially the last sentence. lol.

So to continue with the shoe reversal, :) I'll post my list of what I'd like from a relationship if I were a CD:

If I were a CD dating a GG, I'd like to be able to:

- Have the right to voice my opinion in a calm conversation about boundaries.
- Have the right to my feelings without being made to feel selfish for having them.
- Be forewarned about who my gf wants to tell, on her side of the support spectrum, so that I know the next time I meet these people that they do know about me.
- Have my gf understand that I need validation for this part of myself from more than the mirror that is located in the back of my closet, the computer screen, and her.
- Have my gf understand that I do wish to go out dressed occasionally, and this does mean doing what I can to my body (shaving, eyebrows, nails, etc) so that I can go out without receiving undue attention for being a guy in a dress.
- Establish times and places where my gf feels comfortable with me doing this, and come up with a strategy for changing elsewhere if leaving the house dressed is not an option.
- Have my gf join me whenever she can, since she is the love of my life and doing this on my own is empty without her.
- Have my gf understand that it will take a while for me to find my "look", since I am relatively new at this, and yes, I will make mistakes when buying stuff.
- Have my gf understand that a relationship is neither all about me, nor is it all about her, and that she be willing to join me someplace in the middle.
- Have my gf know how much I appreciate her for going outside her (and the rest of society's) comfort zone for supporting something that few people understand.

I would also promise to always honor my gf's head space with this and if she is having a bad day with acceptance I would promise to not push the CDing on her and instead we could do something we both enjoy doing.

------------------------

To Whprs, I didn't yet address your specific question, which is if I had gone through what you have in the relationship, would I still want to date a CD. I'll address it now.

I certainly would consider breaking it off with this person, but not because he's a CD. Most of the issues you've described don't have much to do with the CDing, except leaving the house dressed, or wanting to find a place to change if leaving dressed was an issue. I'd break it off with him simply because we were so polarized on everything else.

As to the rest:

If I loved my dogs, I would also want a partner who loves dogs, since they bark, jump, and they do generally need attention. If my bf simply didn't like dogs, I'd reconsider the relationship.

If I had been out of the groove of dealing with young children, as in "Been there, done that, and I appreciate my freedom now, thank you", I would also like to find a partner who has the same freedom. It helps when the two adults are in the same life phase.

I would also have been hurt by finding out my bf had sent copies of my emails to him to a close friend. At the same time, if the reason behind his sending them were, "So, what do you think, is she into me?", I'd be annoyed but I'd understand.

I would, however, want to be invited if my bf were to spend time with his other female friends, and if my bf definitely didn't want me along, I'd rethink the relationship.

If he occasionally broke plans with me to attend to family stuff, I'd understand, but if he did this every time, it would be annoying. I would, however, work on helping him help his family accept that I am a part of his life now, and that I wish to come along too, if something needs to get done that is urgent in nature. If he wasn't making any efforts to include me, then I would rethink the relationship.

If I felt that relationship counseling was crucial to our relationship, and he refused to go, then I'd feel as if he would not be the right person for me.

But would I date a CD again if all of the above happened with someone? Yes I would, since any one of those things can happen with a bf who doesn't CD.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Reine, he forwarded emails that the first line said "please do not forward this to ----". I know this b/c she then started emailing me mad about what I had said about her. That is how I knew for sure he forwarded my emails to her. Again, he didn't want the input of a professional but he was all about the opinion of a Xanax addict.

The thing is the first few months we dated I kept telling him to find someone better suited to his needs and he kept saying no. He kept insisting that compromises could be made on the dog issue and that he didn't care if I was fully participating in the CD as long as I loved and accepted him. Then all of that changed when I started letting him know what I needed from him. His canceling plans was not occasional it was often. As far as the family they didn't want me along with him b/c they continued to invite the ex-wife and they told him they would never accept anyone he dated. They also told him he should not date but just raise his son and be alone.

Brandy, I don't mind that others know we're friends.

[ReineD]

Wsprs, it does sound as if your relationship wasn't meant to be. I think you'll both be much happier with other people. :hugs:

But in all honesty, most of the issues had nothing to do with the CDing, and I guess this is what is so confusing about your thread.

Maybe the question should have been, "Would any one of you put up with this person's needs, if you were in my shoes and in my life stage?"

Oh ... and I forgot to mention that I wouldn't like a bf telling me that if I didn't do, or agree with such and such, then he'd find another gf because he's such a stud. Ick. :)

:hugs:

[BRANDYJ]

Beautifully said, Kelly, especially the last sentence. lol.

So to continue with the shoe reversal, :) I'll post my list of what I'd like from a relationship if I were a CD:

If I were a CD dating a GG, I'd like to be able to:

- Have the right to voice my opinion in a calm conversation about boundaries.
- Have the right to my feelings without being made to feel selfish for having them.
- Be forewarned about who my gf wants to tell, on her side of the support spectrum, so that I know the next time I meet these people that they do know about me.
- Have my gf understand that I need validation for this part of myself from more than the mirror that is located in the back of my closet, the computer screen, and her.
- Have my gf understand that I do wish to go out dressed occasionally, and this does mean doing what I can to my body (shaving, eyebrows, nails, etc) so that I can go out without receiving undue attention for being a guy in a dress.
- Establish times and places where my gf feels comfortable with me doing this, and come up with a strategy for changing elsewhere if leaving the house dressed is not an option.
- Have my gf join me whenever she can, since she is the love of my life and doing this on my own is empty without her.
- Have my gf understand that it will take a while for me to find my "look", since I am relatively new at this, and yes, I will make mistakes when buying stuff.
- Have my gf understand that a relationship is neither all about me, nor is it all about her, and that she be willing to join me someplace in the middle.
- Have my gf know how much I appreciate her for going outside her (and the rest of society's) comfort zone for supporting something that few people understand.

I would also promise to always honor my gf's head space with this and if she is having a bad day with acceptance I would promise to not push the CDing on her and instead we could do something we both enjoy doing.

------------------------

To Whprs, I didn't yet address your specific question, which is if I had gone through what you have in the relationship, would I still want to date a CD. I'll address it now.

I certainly would consider breaking it off with this person, but not because he's a CD. Most of the issues you've described don't have much to do with the CDing, except leaving the house dressed, or wanting to find a place to change if leaving dressed was an issue. I'd break it off with him simply because we were so polarized on everything else.

As to the rest:

If I loved my dogs, I would also want a partner who loves dogs, since they bark, jump, and they do generally need attention. If my bf simply didn't like dogs, I'd reconsider the relationship.

If I had been out of the groove of dealing with young children, as in "Been there, done that, and I appreciate my freedom now, thank you", I would also like to find a partner who has the same freedom. It helps when the two adults are in the same life phase.

I would also have been hurt by finding out my bf had sent copies of my emails to him to a close friend. At the same time, if the reason behind his sending them were, "So, what do you think, is she into me?", I'd be annoyed but I'd understand.

I would, however, want to be invited if my bf were to spend time with his other female friends, and if my bf definitely didn't want me along, I'd rethink the relationship.

If he occasionally broke plans with me to attend to family stuff, I'd understand, but if he did this every time, it would be annoying. I would, however, work on helping him help his family accept that I am a part of his life now, and that I wish to come along too, if something needs to get done that is urgent in nature. If he wasn't making any efforts to include me, then I would rethink the relationship.

If I felt that relationship counseling was crucial to our relationship, and he refused to go, then I'd feel as if he would not be the right person for me.

But would I date a CD again if all of the above happened with someone? Yes I would, since any one of those things can happen with a bf who doesn't CD.

Wow Reine! What an insight into what a loving partner would ask for from any man. Not just someone transgendered. And I think any man or any CD that would not agree is very out of touch with what a relationship and partnership is all about. Thank you for writing this.

[Mary Morgan]

I don't understand why you might think that any of this behavior is related to being a crossdresser. Sounds to me like this could and does apply to many people regardless of their need to crossdress. I suggest that you find someone who is considerate and responsible, crossdresser or not.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

If you all will go back and read my original post, I never said that the problems we had were related to the CDing. I asked would it turn others off to the idea of dating a CD when the CD expects to be accepted but will not accept others in return. Sort of like when you have been bitten by one dog you are scared of them all. CD definately adds another layer to the dimentions of relationships. My point is why date someone with an automatic extra issue added in when chances are all of the other issues will possibly do the relationship in anyway? I am not saying that this line of thinking is right or wrong, just that this has turned me off to the idea of giving another CD a chance right now.

[Dana]

Relationships are HARD!

They just are!

Easy to get into!

Can Be Difficult to Maintain!

And all so often so damned difficult to get out of!

And that's with a so-called "NORMAL" Relationship? Whatever that is?

Me, myself and I?

I've fought this crossdressing thing for the better part of my life?

I've denied it, fought it, and refused it!

Thing is?

Its part of me and a part of who I am.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Dana,

Why would you fight it? It's who you are and you were born that way. Accept yourself and free yourself from the guilt and fight and refusal. You will be much happier once you do.

[ReineD]

I asked would it turn others off to the idea of dating a CD when the CD expects to be accepted but will not accept others in return.

It would not turn me off of all CDs, if, in a relationship with a CD, he demonstrated that he was unable to see my POV about the CDing AND the non-CDing issues.

There are non-CDs who are unable to compromise, just as there are CDs who can. The ability to meet in the middle when there are issues has nothing to do with being a CD or not.

Keep in mind though, it is all relative. He may well be better able to compromise with someone who is closer to his way of life (exes, kids, friends, etc), just as you may well be better able to compromise with someone who is closer to yours (dog lover, grown children, no exes on the horizon, etc).

[Dana]

Dana,

Why would you fight it? It's who you are and you were born that way. Accept yourself and free yourself from the guilt and fight and refusal. You will be much happier once you do.

I know!

Born of the Southern Land, baptized in the blood of lamb,

Cultural and societial conditioning ~ taught that breathing was a sin.

I did twenty plus years in the United States Marine Corps trying to suppres my fenimine side of life!

I would love to meet a woman who not only accepted me for and who I am?

But who would embrace it! Encourage it!

[Olivia2]

Whisper,
I haven't read any of the responses yet, so this could be repeat info. From reading your OP, I don't see this as an issue that has anything to do with him being a CD er. He sounds like a man, who either is not ready to commit completely to you or a new relationship at this point. Don't know how long he has been divorced but sounds like he hasn't completely resolved his issues with his wife.

Your request that he not speak to his 2 female friends may have been a bit too strict and maybe he could have backed off over time. I think the couneling request is very reasonable as is the request to not have to always be at his ex'es beck and call regarding last minute cancellations. Counseling may be the only request that should have been made at first and maybe you both could have worked on the points to be negotiated on during counseling.

Maybe he felt as if he was being controlled and just was not feeling comfortable with it so he used a passive aggressive approach by just not being fully available to you. I'm sorry it didn't work out but in the final analysis, his being a CD is incidental to the issues and another CD might behave in a fashion completely opposite from your ex.

Edit: After reading a later post, your reluctance to date another CD might be understandable but it is like any other issue. You might find a man who is not a CD who has some interest, hobby, or other issue that he wants you to accept or compromise with, who still shows an unwillingness to meet you halfway on other issues. It is more about the individual, not the issue at hand-in this case CDing. The odds of you dating another CD in the overall population are quite small, so your next opportunity is unlikely to include that issue, I'm guessing.

Whisper,

As I've read thru more of the posts, my take is that the guy is a jerk, regardless of his other issues. He also may be sex addict who has refused to get help based on his history. Your leaving him is the best way you could have taken care of yourself and get out before things got really painful.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I just wish it would all magically go away and I could be over it and move on. There's that "magical thinking" again. lol

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Whisper,

As I've read thru more of the posts, my take is that the guy is a jerk, regardless of his other issues. He also may be sex addict who has refused to get help based on his history. Your leaving him is the best way you could have taken care of yourself and get out before things got really painful.

I am interested to know what you picked up on that makes you think he might be a sex addict? Please elaborate.

[KarenCDFL]

I don't understand why you might think that any of this behavior is related to being a crossdresser. Sounds to me like this could and does apply to many people regardless of their need to crossdress. I suggest that you find someone who is considerate and responsible, crossdresser or not.


I wholly agree with Mary on this. This was never a CD issue. This was about a selfish person who thinks a relationship is just for their needs and not their partners.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I know!

Born of the Southern Land, baptized in the blood of lamb,

Cultural and societial conditioning ~ taught that breathing was a sin.

I did twenty plus years in the United States Marine Corps trying to suppres my fenimine side of life!

I would love to meet a woman who not only accepted me for and who I am?

But who would embrace it! Encourage it!

OMG, Dana your life sounds like mine except the military background. Thing is, I still believe what the Bible says. I just don't buy into what MAN says from the pulpit about how alternative lifestyles are a CHOICE. I've never met one gay person yet that has said "yes indeed, I would have chosen to be a social outcast". No, it's definately NOT a choice.

[Ann Thomas]

Hi Wsprs,
My wife, when we started dating, gave me the same list, almost exactly. Almost the same circumstances required it, too. Here's what happened:

1. We went to some counselling. It's just something that has to be done at times.
2. I lost several friends over this, but moved on. I had a choice to make and the woman wanting to marry me to precendence over those that didn't. Since then I've had very few friends (nearly ten years now) because I just don't get along with guys as well as I do with women on a social level. As a CD, I like women alot, and want to be like them, so I like to have women friends, but being attracted to them makes it a double edged sword for me. So basically it's made it a very lonely ten years for me. If I had to do it over again, I would not agree to this kind of scenario, as it;s not healthy for me. I'd rather be with someone who would not be jealous of this aspect.
3. I included my wife in all the decisions wherever possible regarding schedule. Still I got accused of schedule changes without her consent and it made life rough. It all ended a year and a half ago when my ex was killed in a car crash. That in turn opened up a whole new can of worms when my kids then had to relate to me as the only parent and they'd been trained to disrespect me and especially their stepmother (my 'new' wife).

In thinking about it, I would have to agree with you that if you come across a CD that is something like myself, it would not be a good thing to date. Points one and three can be worked out. The loneliness that comes from point 2 is just not worth it to me. Life is too short to isolate myself from so much of society. I'm even risking a fair bit being on this forum, as my wife is aware of it but does not monitor it. She doesn't want me to socialize with other CDs in person. That really hurts, as there's so much I'd like to talk about (writing is so cold to me, whereas in person is much warmer). I met one in person on a business matter and though it was a short visit, I felt a kinship I realize I am missing.

Hope this helps a bit.

Hugs and all the best to you,
Ann

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Ann,

I didn't ask the man to give up ALL his friends. Only the one that he himself had created a situation by which I was uncomfortable and the other one was with a married woman who was sneaking around behind her husband's back. If the woman's husband had known I wouldn't have said a word about it.

Also, if the guy I was dating hadn't made such a big issue about bragging about all the women he's been with and how easy it is for him to get women and all the women that constantly proposition him, and if he hadn't shared intimate personal details that sent my comfort level right out the roof, it wouldn't have been an issue. HE is the one that asked me if his talking to her bothered me. It is not like this woman was a life long friend. He met her on the internet on the pretense of asking her out.

Why bother asking me if it bothered me if he wasn't willing to do what it took to make things work with me?
Why wouldn't the feelings/wishes of the person you want to marry take presidence over mere friends?

If I had many friends and my SO made it clear that I had one that made him uncomfortable then I would have to ask...does this friend mean enough to me to throw away my partner? If the answer is yes then there is something very wrong with society's thinking today.

Maybe it is me who is old fashioned and I need to modernize my way of thinking so that my future BF knows that my friends will come before him at all costs. But for the guy that I was dating to continually brag to me over and over about all the women he has been with made me feel that much worse and worse.

I saw that I came behind his dressing, his ex-wife, his family, his friends and anything else that came along....I came behind all of those.

[Lucy_Bella]

.I came behind all of those. Maybe there are other women out there that would have stayed but I couldn't see the point of being with someone that made me feel like I was nothing more than his doormat. He turned the relationship into nothing but a huge joke.

How sad....Lookin outside in all you seemed to be was a catch all..A warm body , no one deserves to be in a relationship like that. You made the right decision by leaving, sounds like this guy must really think highly of himself as it is clear he thinks he is way out of your league.. You should be a door mat to anyone , have strength and walk away . Let this guy soak in what he threw away I bet his attitude changes real fast.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

How sad....Lookin outside in all you seemed to be was a catch all..A warm body , no one deserves to be in a relationship like that. You made the right decision by leaving, sounds like this guy must really think highly of himself as it is clear he thinks he is way out of your league.. You should be a door mat to anyone , have strength and walk away . Let this guy soak in what he threw away I bet his attitude changes real fast.


I am okay with being alone. Does that mean I don't have moments of sadness, absolutely not. But, this too shall pass.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Beautifully said, Kelly, especially the last sentence. lol.

Thanks

So to continue with the shoe reversal, :) I'll post my list of what I'd like from a relationship if I were a CD:

I love your list !

But would I date a CD again if all of the above happened with someone? Yes I would, since any one of those things can happen with a bf who doesn't CD.

Well said, I think that this last sediment, reflects what TG's/CDs want everyone to understand.


Reine
I think we have the start of a book here, how about we contact a publisher ? Only another 784,234 words to go !

[Lucy_Bella]

I am okay with being alone. He detests it...and wants to know someone is there waiting in the shadows for him to throw them a bone when he has nothing better to do. Good luck with that type of relationship.

Good for you! Thats showing respect for yourself, I know it hurt hell it took me over 10 years to finally seperate from my wife. It was pure hell living with her, she was never acceptive and she rubbed it in my nose..Just a chance ,just a small chance that I could ever get fortunate to find an accepting female to my cding would be heaven sent. I would sacrifice willingly any wish that she may ever ask within reason.

I would for sure make it all about her and her only even with the stupid dressing desires and why? Because thats how it should be!!

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Yes, you all are right. Just as I had to get over my fear of ALL dogs after being bitten by one, I cannot judge the whole of society by one rotten egg. I just want to move on, be happy and have fun. Thing is my life has been looking up. I recently got a different job where I am so much happer and I kept waiting on some other area of my life to fall apart and so this did. But, sometimes things have to fall apart in order for us to be fixed and whole. 1 is a whole number and Lord knows if I can survive a divorce after 17 years this is merely a bump in the road. This has taught me that after being single 11 years I am capable of loving again. I have learned from this and I got to learn about a different lifestyle in the process that will help me in the counseling field. So, it wasn't all a loss.

[ReineD]

Reine
I think we have the start of a book here, how about we contact a publisher ? Only another 784,234 words to go !

If it were that simple! :sigh:

Unfortunately, there are so many other factors that come into relationship issues that have nothing to do with a person's gender identity. But, because the CDing stands out (since it is something that is hard to manage in our uninformed society), it is easy to confuse the baggage that comes with it (having to learn to manage the CDing), with other things such as personality, expectations, the degree of relationship skills the partners possess, and whether their backgrounds, sexuality, and life phases or circumstances are compatible.

I've been where you are now, Wsprs. I joined this forum because I was not understanding what was happening in my relationship with my SO, and it was difficult to separate the CDing issues from just the regular, garden variety issues that everyone has when trying to navigate though second and third relationships, in our day and age.

Anyway, you do sound happier without your bf and I do hope that you'll be able to move on emotionally from him soon. :hugs:

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Oh, but you see happiness is a choice. I chose happiness a long time ago. I can be happy with or w/o a man in my life.

[docrobbysherry]

---------------that this has turned me off to the idea of giving another CD a chance right now.

Good thinking, Wsprs. CDs r all alike! Just like SNOWFLAKES!:)


Dana,
Why would you fight it? It's who you are and you were born that way. Accept yourself and free yourself from the guilt and fight and refusal. You will be much happier once you do.

This is a misconception! That we were ALL born this way! I had no desire to try on ANY ladies clothing until after age 50. Altho that may be unusual, I'm NOT unique!
S
However, some girls DO fight their CD desires, on and off, their entire lives! It's still relatively new to me, but I fight that, too! I expect it's because of the old fashioned moral/religious values we were raised with. U mentioned that in your post!:brolleyes:

By the way, I believe u have NAILED "happiness" perfectly! U can give others, or things, the power of happiness over u. But when push comes to shove, only U can make yourself happy!

[AmandaM]

Wow Whsprs,
Lot's of good advice here, especially from Reine. I don't have much to add except my simple rules for dating. I too dated lots of women in my youth, but once I was ready to settle down, I tried to decide what I wanted. I decided on some simple rules for what I wanted.

A woman should take away more stress than she gives. The woman and I should freely do things for each other, not be asked to do things. Compromise happens when we don't give freely. It is always second choice behind freely giving. When we always seem to compromise, it's a sign that you're probably not in a good relationship. Communicate freely. How else will the other know what we want. If you can't communicate well, it's also a sign of a bad relationship.

So if she gives me more stress than she takes away, she always wants to negotiate things or ignores my attempts, then it's a sure bet to look elsewhere.

[Olivia2]

I am interested to know what you picked up on that makes you think he might be a sex addict? Please elaborate.

While I'm uncomfortable putting labels on anyone, it was his claim that he has been with numerous women sexually, including what appeared to be at least flirting with an affair outside his own marriage. Now being with several people sexually does not make one a sex addict but it is worth wondering about depending on the overall picture. I would think, however, that most sex addicts would prefer to keep these affairs a secret, rather than bragging about them to a new relationship partner.

A term used frequently by sex addicts is that they have an "intimacy disorder", which really means that they have difficulty in really being honest, transparent, and emotionally present and available to their spouses or intimate partners. His unavailability here may have simply been that he is not really ready for a new relationship at this time in his life and in the process of disengaging from his previous marriage and the extended relationships from that marriage. Or there could be more. In any case, the reasons behind his not being availabale to you won't change what has happened and the decision you have made to move on with your life.

[Charise52]

Wsprs,
I love what you said, and I know people can be difficult at times... they don't always think about what they are doing... personally I would have welcomed your conditions and always honored them... I can only hope to meet someone like you with the values that you have... a Couple is supposed to focus on building a relationship with each other... too many people misss that point...

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Good thinking, Wsprs. CDs r all alike! Just like SNOWFLAKES!:)

Sherry, point taken. You are right...all men/women are as differnt as snowflakes as are CD's.

This is a misconception! That we were ALL born this way! I had no desire to try on ANY ladies clothing until after age 50. Altho that may be unusual, I'm NOT unique!

I still have so much to learn. Either way, accept who you are and embrace it.

[QUOTE=AmandaM;2322564]
AThe woman and I should freely do things for each other, not be asked to do things. Compromise happens when we don't give freely. It So if she gives me more stress than she takes away, she always wants to negotiate things or ignores my attempts, then it's a sure bet to look elsewhere.

Amanda, I agree with you that when the relationship is bringing more stress than happiness that it's time to walk. However, a couple comes together from two different walks of life and backgrounds and compromise (give and take) has to factor in there. They both have to be willing to accept and be willing to bend with the flow of things. The only relationship that will ever stand are the ones that are strong enough to bend in the storm but not break.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Olivia,
I hadn't thought of it quite in those terms but you do pose a good point and something to ponder. Me, I just want a few quality friends, family, those that love me and my dogs. It's all about quality with me, not quantity. The truth of the matter is that in typical situations most all of us know that the "friends we can COUNT on we can count on one hand, with a left over figure or two"!

Some people will forever stand "knee deep in a river while dying of thirst".

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Charise, you are correct. People miss the point b/c their priorities aren't straight. Then they stand and scratch their head wondering what went wrong.

[stefcd1]

Hello WOTW:

Wow, good for you for standing up and not letting yourself being treated badly. Nobody deserves that. I can't believe he responded the way he did with you accepting him for who he was. I was married for 18 years, the wife knew before we married that I liked to CD and even encouraged it for a few years. Then she did an abrupt about face and rejected that part of me so I gave it up as best as I could. Then a few years later she left and woulkdn't even consider reconcilation no matter what I did or offered. So, to find somebody that would accept and love me for who I am............... well, that would heaven and I would treat her like gold and the Queen she is. Stef

[kimdl93]

As a once divorced person, I would observe that the problems this fellow was expereincing are pretty typical of recently divorced men. Generally speaking, people come out of a divorce with a lot of issues, not the least of which may be guilt about breaking up a family, remorse, depression and some lingering hopes of reconcilliation. A competent therapist once told me, much to my chagrin, that it might be 5 years before a person was really emotionally ready to successfully engage in a long term relationship. In the first couple years after my divorce, I know that I frustrated the heck out of a couple of very nice, attractive women because, though genuinely attracted to them and interested, I just wasn't ready/capable of fully letting go.

My advice to women out there...be very cautious about recently divorced men. They may want to jump into the sack and may think they are OK, but they aren't.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Stef, your story sounds identical to his and his ex wife's.

KIMD, for every 4 years in a relationship you are supposed to give yourself 1 year to heal.

I really don't know if I will be alone the rest of my life or not. I have to be content with it either way and make the best of it.

[AKAMichelle]

The problems you describe aren't about cd'ing. They are about having enough respect for you to put you first in his life. Sounds like the bigger issue was that he hadn't detangled his life from his ex's. That relationship polluted your relationship and made things bad for you. I think you should avoid the cd'ing issues when looking back at this relationship and realize that he just wasn't ready to be in a serious relationship.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

AKA, I think you are exactly right.

[Dana]

First I would like to thank you for being such an open minded person ~ woman.

Many of us would so dearly like to find someone such as yourself.

Just someone who is open to and recognizing the need to go to counseling after something as traumatic as divorce?

I married young ~ 22.

I didn't have a clue as to what it meant to be married, that what it takes to get "her" is what it takes to keep her? I didn't have a clue as to what women were about, that their minds were literally wired "differently" and that they literally "thought" differently than men ~ (and I"m not even beginning to talk about hormones)

I was young, dumb, ignorant, and arrogant!! And did I mention clueless?

For the better part of my life? I've attemped to 'live down' my feminnine side ~ indeed I've out right denied it.

Guess what?

The more I did so? The more pervassive it bacame!

No more than I see anything with being a woman ~ do I see wanting to be one?

Or at least doing the best one can do as such?

I would love being the other half feminnine side with a GG.

Think about it?

Twice the interests, twice the fun!

[Rachael502]

I should think all of your requests were certainly reasonable right out of the gate........second, I think anyone, cd'er or not has to be in the relationship and act like you are cared for, above and beyond all others.......a lot to ask? You bet your butt it is but it's the necessary stuff the best relationships are made of........I'm still yearning to find the partner in life that cares for one another above all else, not matter the circumstances. And there's no doubt in my mind from reading your post, that if and when you feel you've found that someone that you'll jump right in and give it your all. Just got that feeling about you!

[kimdl93]

Stef, your story sounds identical to his and his ex wife's.

.....for every 4 years in a relationship you are supposed to give yourself 1 year to heal. I mentioned this to him and he assured me that he had been gone from the marriage emotionally for 5 years. That is the only reason I was willing to give him a chance.....

He may have thought he was emotionally gone, but his actions seem to suggest otherwise. Honestly, if I were a GM or GG considering a serious relationship - not just dating & sex ;) - I would at least keep the time since the divorce before getting to deeply involved.

You needn't worry about being alone. Be out there for people who are emotionally ready and it will work out.

[Dana]

I am so glad to have people such as yourself in this life!

Yes I have to accept as my last LTR GF (who BTW couldn't accept although tried) that I'm "Part Girl"

And no I'm not gay ~ although I believe being so would make it easier being TG?

I just love all things feminine ~ but I'm not allowed to express it!

I love that women are friends with other women ~ just because they'er woemen.

That don't have to be fishing, hunting, NASCAR, football buddies?

They simply need to be but women?

That's it!

That's all they need to have in common?

I love the concept among women of just "being"

And "sharing" just for the simple concept of "sharing"

I love the complexity and the simplicity of women!

A duality and a paradox all at the same time!

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I should think all of your requests were certainly reasonable right out of the gate........second, I think anyone, cd'er or not has to be in the relationship and act like you are cared for, above and beyond all others.......a lot to ask? You bet your butt it is but it's the necessary stuff the best relationships are made of........I'm still yearning to find the partner in life that cares for one another above all else, not matter the circumstances. And there's no doubt in my mind from reading your post, that if and when you feel you've found that someone that you'll jump right in and give it your all. Just got that feeling about you!

Yes, it's a lot to ask, but I am worth it as is everyone who truly commits to making it work. I will fight until my last dying breath to make things work, but I'll also be the first to let go when I feel I amdoing it alone. You're right, when I jump in again (if I ever do-not really sure I want to exhert the energy again) I will jump in the deep end. There's no other way to go.

It's not like I asked the man to change for me, just make a few adjustments.

[AmandaM]

It's not like I asked the man to change for me

Well he might, if it's his favorite dress! LOL! Sorry, couldn't resist.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Well he might, if it's his favorite dress! LOL! Sorry, couldn't resist.

LMAO! I'm thinking you need some serious duties handed out to you with heels and a maid's outfit locked on you.

Actually, changing is inevitable to some degree. You can't take two people from totally different backgrounds and expect every aspect to fit. There is going to have to be adjustments and tweaking things.

I was thinking on the drive home from work that I am 46 years old and I still do not know what it is like to be truly loved by a man. That's pretty sad. I hold very little hope that I will ever find it either. Lets face it, the older we get the slimmer our chances get. I spent years upon years in counseling and college getting psychology degrees to heal myself as well as help others. What good is knowing how to be a healthy partner when you can't find anyone else that's emotionally healthy?


Oops, there I go rambling again. Somebody smack me! lol
Pointing finger at Amanda....YOU started this. lol

[WsprsOnTheWind]

So, some of you CDs clear something up for me. My BF told me that most CD's are wishy washy and you can't count on them keeping their word.

[Amy Lynn3]

WOTW, that statement sounds like another lie he told you. I have been a cder from age 3 and have always been the type person, that if I told you something you could carry it to the bank.

PS: Would an older cder like myself stand a chance with you? You have a great understanding of life in general and you have great opinions, oh!! did I mention you are beautiful on top of all your other great qualities.

[Phoebe Reece]

I don't think any of us know personally enough other CD's to make any generalizations about what's true for the majority. Crossdressing cuts across pretty much all social strata, income, and education levels so about the only thing that seems true is that in most respects CD's are pretty much like other men. Some are good at keeping their word and some are not. Some CDs worship their SOs while others treat them like dirt. Simply being a CD is not really a good predictor of other kinds of behavior. It's really unfortunate that you were involved with someone unwilling to do what was necessary to make the relationship work. There are a lot of lonely CD and non-CD men out there. Keep looking and sooner or later you'll come across one that is right for you.

[Diane Smith]

So, some of you CDs clear something up for me. My BF told me that most CD's are wishy washy and you can't count on them keeping their word. Of course, he excluded himself from that <hang on while I finish my fit of uncontrollable laughter> Okay, I'm back now. So, is that true for the majority or just him?

Again, I think the correlation between CDing and personal reliability is just about zero -- some CDers will be space cadets, some will be the steadiest and most responsible people you'll ever meet, and most of us fall somewhere in between (or swing back and forth). Really, the only group characteristic that stands out among the crossdressers I know is that they like clothes of the opposite gender. :)

- Diane

[Margot]

As a formerly divorced person with children I have to say that your boyfreind picked the wrong person to date. I get breaking off contact with other women but what I always say is you divorce from your wife not your kids. The next time you pick up a guy your question should not be are you a crossdresser but "Do you have young children". Your relationship was never meant to be for a whole bunch of reasons.

[BRANDYJ]

So, some of you CDs clear something up for me. My BF told me that most CD's are wishy washy and you can't count on them keeping their word. Of course, he excluded himself from that <hang on while I finish my fit of uncontrollable laughter> Okay, I'm back now. So, is that true for the majority or just him?

Wsprs, you know where I stand on this. If I thought for one minute that I was wishy washy and could not keep my word because of my being a CD, I'd purge for the rest of my life! That ridiculous statement by him was merely to cover up his own lack of keeping his word. He told you things that suited his purpose and not what is really the truth about himself, other CD's or even about other men.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

As a formerly divorced person with children I have to say that your boyfreind picked the wrong person to date. I get breaking off contact with other women but what I always say is you divorce from your wife not your kids. The next time you pick up a guy your question should not be are you a crossdresser but "Do you have young children". Your relationship was never meant to be for a whole bunch of reasons.

Funny you say this Margot (love that name BTW). My typical standing rules include:
No mothers that butt in
No small children
No exes interferring
No smokers

I broke all the rules for him and accepted his CD'ing. A friend of mine that I have confided in about this told me that he really didn't realize how lucky he was. I rarely let any man into my life and open up to them. Of course he couldn't know or appreciate the ground that he tread was ground select few will ever go. He was too busy wiping his feet on me to recognize that.


How ironic, John Mellencamp is blasting "I need a lover that won't drive me crazy" on my computer. lololol

[sandra-leigh]

Wishy-washy: well, you might have trouble getting me to give my word, but once I give it, I keep to it as best possible, even if it is inconvenient for me.

[Dana]

I would love to be the "wife" to a GG ~ I'm retired out of the military ~ I've got a check coming in that's more than the common man.

I know this is possible.

[SusanLCD]

I've been reading the responses to your initial posting and cringeing everytime I read how self-centered this guy must have been. (My dogs also asked that I reply on their behalf that they would absolutely NOT go outside for him. Then, they got back up on my bed and went to sleep. :D)

"So, some of you CDs clear something up for me. My BF told me that most CD's are wishy washy and you can't count on them keeping their word. Of course, he excluded himself from that <hang on while I finish my fit of uncontrollable laughter> Okay, I'm back now. So, is that true for the majority or just him?"

Similar to Sandra-Leigh, I am slow to give my word because, once given, my integrity is on the line if I should go back on it. That might appear "wishy-washy" to some, but, in fact, means that it isn't something I toss out casually. It may sound contradictory coming from a CDer, but, as your studies undoubtedly revealed, humans are complex individuals.

Don't let this sour you on CDers. I believe that, in general, we are more likely than most GMs to be caring of others feelings because of what we are and have experienced. :2c:

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Susan,

You sound like me in that your dogs own you, you don't own them. My fur babies are my best friends and I will never give them up for anyone. Nor will they be put outside. What kind are yours?

I'm not soured to CD's at all. Talking to you all here has helped immensly. I'm the same way about when I give my word. I back my words up with actions.

[mklinden2010]

Can make your head hurt.

[Dana]

So, some of you CDs clear something up for me. My BF told me that most CD's are wishy washy and you can't count on them keeping their word. Of course, he excluded himself from that <hang on while I finish my fit of uncontrollable laughter> Okay, I'm back now. So, is that true for the majority or just him?
Many of us having being HARSLY SOCIALLY AND CULTURALLY CONDITIONED ti conform to what is traditionally considered to be masculine ~ some even beaten and physically abused to conform?

Yea no kidding we're in denial and it takes us years and years to find self accetance?

[Mary Morgan]

I see, you want to minimize the potential for problems and being with a crossdresser adds addtional risk. Perhaps so, but I contend that crossdressers, at least most of those I have met tend to be very compassionate, loving and nurturing. From where I stand, in my heels of course, these potentials outway any societal risk, and any partner should be happy that they are part of the mix. My point is that one does not haveto be a crossdresser to be a jackass, in fact, I think it is less likely in a crossdresser. You managed to find someone who just doesn't fill your cup and I hope you will not assume all CDs are like that. You deserve better than you have been getting and I'm sure you will find it, maybe even through this forum.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I was married for 18 years, the wife knew before we married that I liked to CD and even encouraged it for a few years. Then she did an abrupt about face and rejected that part of me so I gave it up as best as I could. Then a few years later she left and woulkdn't even consider reconcilation no matter what I did or offered. So, to find somebody that would accept and love me for who I am............... well, that would heaven and I would treat her like gold and the Queen she is. Stef

IMO that is wrong to tell someone you will accept them then reject them for it. That must have been very painful for you after being together so long. Probably wouldn't have hurt as much if she had rejected the idea when you first told her. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Well, I for one am tired of dating empty cups. I want a full glass for a change.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

definitions:
And, wishy-washy because the majority of people never really make up their mind what they'll stand up for, work to improve, and/or die trying. Most cders keep their heads down, their mouths shut, and their business to themselves. What progress they make is limited to one step at a time - taken without any real sense of direction since their efforts are directed towards no horizon, no set destination. So, it's progress as easily taken away with the next step, blindly in some other direction.
I have wished so many times that I could have less of a backbone and not stand for what I believe in so adamantly. If I could have just kept my mouth shut and accepted the way my BF was treating me then we could have stayed together. But now, I have this nasty creed that I live by now of never allowing anyone to abuse me again. I guess it's a good trait to have but the motto I've always used is "I'll stand for what I beleive in even if I have to stand alone". It gets old doing what you know is right and always being alone.
A look at the antonyms will not bring most cders, or, most of humanity to mind. Most people do not have an exceptional amount of backbone, lack firmness in their actions and convictions, are soft in the same sense, weak, and, easily broken down.

There are pluses and minuses to this fact of life for so many.

A wishy-washy population probably gets along better for longer periods of time than one that isn't - while at the same time the same population suffers doubts, guilts, and regrets that take up a lot of time and energy that could be otherwise put to "good" use.
I just cannot stand the wishy washy mentality. Nothing irks me worse. Just say what you mean and mean what you say. I know that many aren't strong enough to do this.
.


Settling just on the issue of cders being wishy-washy - and keeping these above cavaets in mind, I wouldn't mind at all if more cders indentified their immutable interest in crossdressing and made it something to be proud of rather than something to worry about.
I think that was the point that he was making. He said he has tried to get CD's together but they don't follow through. Fear is probably a big factor in that.


Things could be better: They could be worse.


You meet a really good liar, a really messed up person, and they teach you not to trust everything you hear or to put all you eggs in one basket. Once you've run the obstacle course, and personally survived despite the problems and disappointments, you know more about yourself than when you started: You learn to be wise, not just wooed.
I must have a lot of learning to do b/c it seems it's all been nothing but problems and disappointments. Growing old alone is looking better and better.

[Jessica Britton]

Especially since your requests had nothing to do with CDing at all. I don't blame you for dropping him.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Well, I guess we will see how the new dating goes in the future. Wish me luck girls!

[JenniferB]

It was also hurtful for him to brag about all the women he's been with. He would tell me that there was no point in being with someone that couldn't do everything he wanted b/c it was too easy for him to get women.
This guy sounds like a real jackass. Good on you for dumping him.

[Juliemckay]

Well, I guess we will see how the new date goes. He always made it clear he had many women falling at his feet and had no problems getting dates. So, I guess that goes for us both. This one is going to be all for fun and no emotional committment. Wish me luck girls!

Good luck, don't take him too seriously and just have fun.

[Dana]

Well, I guess we will see how the new date goes. He always made it clear he had many women falling at his feet and had no problems getting dates. So, I guess that goes for us both. This one is going to be all for fun and no emotional committment. Wish me luck girls!

I'm confussed?

Is this with the XHEX that was a CD

Or is this a date with a new CD

Or is this with a so called "normal" male

All of that aside you come across as a very loving, caring, sharing person.

I don't think that you will be lonely for long.

All the more is that you come across as more multi-dimensional than just as a woman.

We're all more than the sum of our parts ~ and I for one would like to hear about those about you.

Yea most men can find a woman ~ and they can find a sex partner ~ but WTH are you going to do and talk about the other twenty-three-and-half hours of the day.

I've been married once and only once ~ and crossdressing be damned ~ I don't won't to be in a marriage where my wife is in one room watching Home and Gardens and I in another watching Alabama and Tennesse playing football.


To be honest about it?

Yea! I'm a crosss dresser ~ I've got a feminine side!

Not proud about it ~ but I am ~ And I'm only lying to myself to deny it! I just am!

And its only a matter of time before it comes to the top?

To deny it? Is only to lie to yourself? That's all it is!

When you thinkyour following someone?

Your only following YOURSELF!

[mklinden2010]

Read.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

[QUOTE=Dana;2324951]I'm confussed?

Is this with the XHEX that was a CD NO

Or is this a date with a new CD NO

Or is this with a so called "normal" male If there is such a thing...lol

All of that aside you come across as a very loving, caring, sharing person. Thank you

I don't think that you will be lonely for long. Actually, I'm good with being alone if that is what's meant to be.

All the more is that you come across as more multi-dimensional than just as a woman. Is that good or bad? lol

We're all more than the sum of our parts ~ and I for one would like to hear about those about you. What would you like to know? Just ask.

Yea most men can find a woman ~ and they can find a sex partner ~ but WTH are you going to do and talk about the other twenty-three-and-half hours of the day.That's what I've always said too.

I've been married once and only once ~ and crossdressing be damned ~ I don't won't to be in a marriage where my wife is in one room watching Home and Gardens and I in another watching Alabama and Tennesse playing football.At least you picked the right team and said TENNESSEE....goooooooooooooooo VOLS....who am I kidding they suck. lol

Not proud about it ~ but I am ~ And I'm only lying to myself to deny it! I just am!No need to be ashamed of it either. I have seriously thought of specializing my counseling in CD'ing. So many out there hurting and confused that just need to relax and accept who they are. They just need someone to tell them that it's okay and it's not a scourge to be that way. My heart just bleeds for you guys.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

As a general thing, I haven't experienced cders as being much different from most people when it comes to returning phone calls, setting a date and keeping it, and so forth.

First, if there was ever a period in history full of distractions and useful wild cards, this might be one of the busiest and most confusing. Excellent point. We are ALL just too busy to socialize in general. I thought when I got my girls raised that I would have all this free time but I was so wrong.


Your recent post about "growing old alone" is probably not going to come to pass. You're too good at getting involved with others to suffer that fate. IDK, I tend to be a loner.[QUOTE=mklinden2010;2324964]

The worse fate, of course, IS growing old and alone in a relationship where you are both unhappy with everything about it. THat was my whole point. Better to grow old alone than to be with someone alone and unhappy.

Been there, got out of it - and been happier ever since.Me too. Best thing I ever did was get divorced.

I keep telling myself this. You know, fake it til you make it.
You'll see to it that things get better... Some damn way!

[WsprsOnTheWind]

This guy sounds like a real jackass. Good on you for dumping him.

Yeah, now if my heart would only follow my head I'd be great. lol

Maybe I expected too much or more than what he was able to give. IDK

[Mary Morgan]

WOTW, I think we all expect too much and are therefore condemned to be disappointed. In the end we all want to be loved, worts and all, and in the end it seems we are judged by our worts. My wife and I have found a place in the middle where we can peacefully co-exist and it works really well, if not ideally. Frankly, isn't that what all of us do? Life is short and precious. I wish for you the most loving relationship possible. Even then, it will have it's worts.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I think I could have dealt with all the last minute schedule changes and everything else if I had felt that I was honestly loved and not just a convenience. Maybe if I had heard how much he appreciated my patience and what a trooper I was for being willing to love him during the rough times then I wouldn't have felt as if I was nothing more than yesterday's newspaper.

[Mary Morgan]

What is abundantly clear to me is how deeply in love you are with this man, and how deeply hurt you are at his lack of understanding and perhaps, his caring. I'm truly sorry. I have experienced the loss and disappointment of a love. All I can offer to you is that life goes on, and good things await your receptiveness to them.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

What is abundantly clear to me is how deeply in love you are with this man, and how deeply hurt you are at his lack of understanding and perhaps, his caring. I'm truly sorry. I have experienced the loss and disappointment of a love. All I can offer to you is that life goes on, and good things await your receptiveness to them.

OMG, I would have walked over hot coals of fire for this man. I thought he hung the moon at one point.

[suchacutie]

What an incredible thread! I read through every bit of it:)

My femme side appeared after 3 decades of marriage and "Tina" has been a joint project between my wife and me. In that regard I don't carry much, if any baggage since it's always been completely natural to explore who Tina is as a way to understand this part of me that's been hidden for so long. But, even without the emotional issues, this carrying on in two genders is just HARD! I am so thankful that I have a card-carrying representative of the female gender as my partner and complete supporter!

I really do think I have the best of all worlds, and I only say that here because there must be more transgendered males out there who would give their eye teeth for a supportive partner who understands that understanding their femme side, and living part of their life that way is completely essential. We understand how vulnerable we are in many circumstances, but we sure are going to be incredibly loyal to someone who is willing/excited to throw their lot in with us!

your ex had other issues, but if you want a loyal, strong-willed, open-minded, partner...one of us can sure be that partner! (oh, not me. We celebrate our 38th anniversary next June!)

all our best to you!

tina

[Annaliese2010]

...Would this turn you against dating a CD again? I am trying to stay objective and tell myself that CD's are all different. However, there is a part of me that is so turned off by the thought of ever dating another CD. Right now, I couldn't even phantom the idea of it. I still am very accepting of those who are CD's. I just don't know that I can ever date another one. Once bitten, twice shy!Is your date transgendered wrt to identifying as a girl? Or simply crossdressing as a man? We're not all alike. Whether you are a GG girl who is straight, bisexual or lesbian, dating a M2F TG lesbian (like me) would be different & ultimately satisfying I would hazard to guess.

We don't bite but we probably are more willing to work with you to lick your problem ~ the right way, that is. As the slogan goes, T-girls drive harder. No disrespect but perhaps you might consider a side benefit not available to most GG women. Not so audacious as it might at first sound is how the reverse is generally true: GG women can be the 'driver' i.e. can be in control when they are so inclined, for instance after a long frustrating day at the office. This is especially true if their work environment is male dominated or if they have a male supervisor or male coworker who are unenlightened wrt treating women with full equality and absolute fairness in the workplace.

The frustration GG women may experience in this or similar situations can often be conveniently vanquished if dating a M2FTG lezzie. By assuming authority & control in the bedroom and with the aid of what are now commonly acceptable and widely availabe male 'accoutrements', a GG woman can realize new found strength and self-determination to the mutual benefit of her and her intimate partner. The consummation of acts generally described as 'role-reversal' allows her to feel first hand the rush of excitement normally felt by a non-TG male who w/o forethought naturally takes charge and dominates. This can be a very balancing, restorative and psychologically healthy if not empowering experience for you. :battingeyelashes:

146674

[WsprsOnTheWind]

if you want a loyal, strong-willed, open-minded, partner...one of us can sure be that partner! (oh, not me. We celebrate our 38th anniversary next June!)all our best to you!tina

I think I'll hold out for a rich sugar-daddy to come along so I can sleep in every day and not work any more. BRB clicking my heels together to see if he magically appears lol.

[Juliemckay]

Well, I guess we will see how the new date goes. He always made it clear he had many women falling at his feet and had no problems getting dates. So, I guess that goes for us both. This one is going to be all for fun and no emotional committment. Wish me luck girls!


Don't forget... WE WANT DETAILS!!!

[Dana]

If you marry for money?

You'll EARN every damned penny of it

[Dana]

The problem with the XHEX is obvious ~ he's just a selfish SOB

[Dana]

I didn't know it at the time, but being a career Marine my X was right to leave & divorce me.

You see I had another Mistress whose name was the United State Marine Corps.

The Corps several years ago tried to bring back the old pre-WWII standard that a Marine couldn't get married unless they were a Corporal
and had four years of service under their belt and had the permission of the Chain of Command.

Congress had a fit.

My point? Is that most of us are mentally, financially, emotionally ill-equiped for relationships let alone somethine as dead serious as marriage.

Indeed as a general rule women are about ten years more emotionally mature than men of the same chronological age.

Through something like crossdressing into the mix and you can spell that as nothing but T R O U B L E

I've been around the track enough times to know that:

I move in with a woman its only a matter of time before the "want, desire, and need" to get girly raises its head out of her closet

That relationships are easy to get into, can be difficult to maintain, and more often than not? Damn hard to get out of.

I know that I have to accept myself for who and what I am ~ and quit fighting the "girl" within and that I am who I am and that's all I'm ever
going to be.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Dana, don't wait til AFTER you move in to tell her. Tell her before either of you are so far in emotionally that you can't get out easily.

[Dana]

Thank you for the advice.

From this point on I intend to live my life like an open book ~ LOL!

After years of overcoming cultural, societal and religious conditioning?

I really don't see what is wrong with being and enjoying feminity and feminie things?

After twenty years in the Marine Corps ~ I really don't think I have to prove nor validate my masculinity to anyone nor for any reason.

I could be wrong ~ but I like that women become friends with one another just because their women.

Men? They don't so much have friends as they have buddies ~ fishing buddies, hunting buddies, golfing buddies and none of which are so much interchangeable?
That is to say that fishing buddies, hunting buddies, and golfing buddies don't necessarily mix all that well together doing different things.

I like all those things to ~ but I also like "girly" things that women traditionally like. Such as shopping, cooking, etc.

And dammit I just love and adore women and all things feminine ~ always have and always will.

And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing?

The things I find most attractive about a woman is her eyes, her smile, her hair and her neck.

I like the insight and intuition of a woman ~ and the "Ah!" moments they bring to my reality. I wish I had that and more often than not it brings to me a surprise.

I've read enough about women, relationships, marriage to know that women's minds are literally "hard wired" differently.

Indeed it was my vain attempt to understand women that lead me to cross dressing in the beginning.

There's been much alluded to about cross dressing and sex ~ but the truth of the matter is?

I just like getting "girly" and all things related to such.

[Annaliese]

It has nothing to do with his CDing. You did the right thing by stopping the relationship, you need to find someone that will respected you as much as they want to be respected. What you ask of him was not out of line. If he cant see what he was doing was wrong then good buy.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Thank you Annaliese.

I'm going out tonight to see the new Harry Potter movie. All this serious stuff and matters of the heart and love can just take a back burner for a change. I'm going to let my hair down and have some fun for once. Things need to be about me for a little while.

Dana, WTG with being open about who you are. Don't ever stop being that way.

[Dana]

I'm curious?

Would you knowingly date a Crossdresser?

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I knew the guy was a CD before we ever met. That was the first thing he asked me. However, I did not meet him with the intent of dating him. I just wanted to know what it was like to be a CD and get information from him.

[Annaliese2010]

Thank you Annaliese.

I'm going out tonight to see the new Harry Potter movie. All this serious stuff and matters of the heart and love can just take a back burner for a change. I'm going to let my hair down and have some fun for once. Things need to be about me for a little while.You are so very welcome because you are so very pretty on the surface, well spoken, responsible, caring deeply within, adventurous, daring to push deeper more. Hair down face beaming, arms reaching round, hands working both, part of you borrowed, linking, scandalous & close. Whispered from a distance, spoken soft & low, the galloping approach; you cannot stop it will not listen, overwhelmed, undertowed, against your will you mustn't surrender and still give in, and in and out side to side then up and up and way away...course unclear...trajectory unknown... two missiles firing small and large yet equipotent. Which is yours which is hers, at the speed of light the border blurs; when one plus one is one not two, GG, TG, GTGG --> a perfect mix your union, unholy communion, a stream unending, blessedly expressed feminine energy... streaking, arcing, gracefully scarring black velvet night with your blended white. One second of perfection can last one forever, where thee and she midst galaxies, milky ways, face smeared cremes, your beautiful dream suspended in here, out there, everywhere fair and far beyond the limits of mortal time.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Well, the movie was pretty good, a bit long for me to sit through. I think I will definately be seeing more of the guy I went with too. I've known him many years but we haven't had the chance to hang out much until now.