Accepted Norms Of Sexual Behavior ....

[Kelly DeWinter]

Now that I have your attention

Please read all 3 reference links below before replying.

The Opening paragraph to Merack Manual on Sexual Disorders states:

" Accepted norms of sexual behavior and attitudes vary greatly within and among different cultures. Health care practitioners should never be judgmental of sexual behaviors, even under societal pressure. Generally, what is normal and abnormal cannot be defined medically. However, when sexual behavior or difficulties bother a patient or the patient's partner or cause harm, treatment is warranted."

http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec15/ch203/ch203a.html
http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec15/ch203/ch203b.html
http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec15/ch203/ch203c.html

Many times there are posts on this forum with only partial information on why TG issues are listed as a mental disorder. I submit that generaly we jump to the diagnosis, instead of reading the background information (similar to taking a medication first, then reading the instructions afterwards, or putting togeather a bike at christmas, finding 'extra' parts, then reading the assembly instructions).

When reading the introduction paragraph above, it puts the 3 refferenced links in context. Context is important in understanding any material.

Once you break the introduction down into bullet points, the context of the 3 links become clearer and you can fully understand the rest of the information:

1) Accepted norms of sexual behavior and attitudes vary greatly within and among different cultures.
2) Health care practitioners should never be judgmental of sexual behaviors, even under societal pressure.
3) Generally, what is normal and abnormal cannot be defined medically.
4) However, when sexual behavior or difficulties bother a patient or the patient's partner or cause harm, treatment is warranted."

What we now see based on historical evidence, is that attitudes towards crossdressing although may not be 'widely' accepted in Western Culture based on historical past. Crossdressing is accepted at least 'narrowly' today and is becoming more accepted with each passing day within Western Culture. Current trends indicate crossdressing will continue to do so in the future.

Basicly we are NORMAL ! :eek:
I stand corrected, we are Uber-Normal !, Fabulous, Trendy, (fill in your own _______)

Please include some serious comments (or else I did a lot of typing for naught) :(, I'm really interested in your opinions.

Let the discussions begin !

Kelly

P.S. I would strongly reccomend reading the 3 links 4 or 5 times each.
P.P.S. I reserve the right to change my mind at any time for any reason.

EDIT to this Post: What I ment to say was Basicly if crossdressing does'nt bother you, it's "NORMAL for YOU".

[MJ]

Basicly we are NORMAL ! :eek:

.

I will never be normal
i have to shave my legs
brb

[Andrea's Lynne]

What's "normal"? I'll settle for being me. If folks don't like it, they can take a leap ;)

[Karren H]

For me ingorance is bliss.... :). And normal sounds so.... Boreing? I'd rather err on the side of abnormal.. What's a good word for better than normal? Uber-normal!! Yeah! Lol.

[Kelly DeWinter]

For me ingorance is bliss.... :). And normal sounds so.... Boreing? I'd rather err on the side of abnormal.. What's a good word for better than normal? Uber-normal!! Yeah! Lol.

Karren, you are the most 'Blissful' divia I know. :) . I know it sounds boring :( . I think most TG/CD are also highly creative, You have to be, in order to go through the clothes,makeup etc, to get your look just right. By the way, love the purple top !

Kelly

[Ashliegh]

I have always believed if you enjoy something, or chose to live a certain way, and it doesn't harm anyone else that should be your right and it should be accepted. I admit I am lucky, my girlfriend is very open minded and tolerant of different views and lifestyles. She is always encouraging me to be myself and loves me for who I am, never asking me to change.
Also, as an observation, it seems most of the people who post here seem to be very intelligent and/or well educated. I wonder if there is a connection between intelligence and tolerance/acceptance. Aside from the obvious idea that intelligence leads to the desire for knowledge.
Thoughts?

[Lorileah]

Typically we have "normals" in medicine. They are the central average of things that can be measured (the middle portion of a bell curve usually). This is applied to things that have measurement standards (i.e. liver and kidney function) and not things that can vary beyond physiology. Confused? Well to make it more complicated just because something that can be measured does not fall within a "norm" does not mean it is abnormal. There are persons here who have an average temperature that maybe a whole degree higher or lower than the mean (98.6 according to an old pop song). Often when we read blood work we may ignore variations that are slightly (even up to twice the norm) out of the range as long as the patient isn't showing signs of illness (standard rule "if your lab work and patient disagree: believe your patient). As stated this applies to things that can be measured quantitatively. Emotion, human nature, feelings, learned and innate behaviors may have "standards set but they are not repeatable quantitative standards. I would bet that if you read more of the Merck Manual (not really a bible but more a road map in medicine) you will see that it uses the word "normal" many times in describing how to diagnose and treat an illness, so the author of the paragraph you posted was a little off the mark.

Now, having said that, we know that behavior varies greatly all over the world. Attitudes vary also. Liver function doesn't. This would make "normals" a non-measurable entity over the vast population. Average may be a better idiom for small sectors. When it comes to cross dressing, this would be a totally made up set of rules as clothing is a societal thing. Nature or God didn't set concrete rules for clothing as we all well know.

The urge to conform is strong in a pack mentality. Thus, the rules are set by the mean. The bell curve can be wide or narrow depending on society. Luckily in our society, most people have their own agenda and unless for some reason you interfere with that agenda, they really don't care how you act or present. This is what is normal.

Spending your life and energy defending yourself as normal is a waste of energy. That is my normal opinion :)

[Kelly DeWinter]

Lorileah, I just wanted to say I enjoyed your explanation of how 'normals' are arrived at. I hated using the word "Normal", I should edit it out, What I ment is that it's the same as if someone liked golf, parachuting, diving or any other hobby. Gender Identity is not neccesaraly a Disorder, anymore then being right handed or lefthanded is a disorder.

[GaleWarning]

Normal is bland. Boring. Predictable.
Why be normal?
:belly:

[Kelly DeWinter]

LOL, In about a year, I'm going to repost this and leave out the "Normal" comment.

[Karren H]

Thanks Kelly... Funny but I'm wearin that same color top in drab today. Was that the class bell?? :). Rarely has creative and engineer used together...


Karren, you are the most 'Blissful' divia I know. :) . I know it sounds boring :( . I think most TG/CD are also highly creative, You have to be, in order to go through the clothes,makeup etc, to get your look just right. By the way, love the purple top !

Kelly

[JohnH]

With all the discussion of being normal, here is a joke that I just have to tell ...

There was a new guy in an analytical lab that just started.

One measure of the strength of an acid or a base [alkali] is normality. So, there were these burettes containing different strengths of acid and bases - 0.1 normal, 0.5 normal, etc.

An older fellow asked, "What's your name?"

The new guy was not listening very closely, and assumed the older guy was asking the strength of the acid in a burette.
So he blurts out, "Half normal".

I guess the nickname of "half normal" stayed with the new guy for the rest of the career in that company!

[Annaliese2010]

With all the discussion of being normal, here is a joke that I just have to tell ... There was a new guy in an analytical lab that just started.... I guess the nickname of "half normal" stayed with the new guy for the rest of the career in that company!That was a really cute story! What a cool name for a laboratory analyst. Lucky for him they weren't Molar solutions. LOL.


Now that I have your attention... Please read all 3 reference links below before replying...Please include some serious comments (or else I did a lot of typing for naught) :(, I'm really interested in your opinions...Let the discussions begin! I would strongly reccomend reading the 3 links 4 or 5 times each.I love your enthusiasm Kelly. I also like your directions to the reader & meticulous instructions. I love that in a woman! :o I haven't read the links yet but I WILL! Great topic!

[docrobbysherry]

There IS a sexual line that should NOT be crossed by ANYONE!:thumbsdn:

I think if u have thots or fantasies that DO NOT involve adult humans, u need PROFESSIONAL HELP RITE NOW!:Angry3:

[Kelly DeWinter]

There IS a sexual line that should NOT be crossed by ANYONE!:thumbsdn:

I think if u have thots or fantasies that DO NOT involve adult humans, u need PROFESSIONAL HELP RITE NOW!:Angry3:

I agree and that would fall under the unaccepted norms for society, since society made it illegal.

[Christy_M]

I love any opportunity to get educated. Thank you for the links. I read so much of my life in these articles it is just uncanny. I agree that the term normal is probably overused but not just related to TG. What is a "normal" paycheck? What is a "normal" hair color? There are so many things that people use the term "normal" to describe - height, property value, clothing fit, etc. Using it to describe people's gender seems just as vague. If we could get the rest of society to educate themselves on this material, maybe there would be a higher level of acceptance. I think that is my new "life goal." Social acceptance of all things TG.

[KellyCD]

"Extramarital sex occurs frequently among married people despite social taboos."


Love that line. Cause it's SOO true. I'd wager it happens in about 70% of marriages easily.

[juligirl1984]

wow that just totally got me lost... other than that it was interesting. now I have even more to think about, gees.

[Miss Misery]

Normal is too broad a term to be used for behavioral traits that may differ from one culture or time period to another. One could say that racism, sexism and homophobia were historically "normal behaviors" when we probably mean "accepted behaviors". Constants, like body temp, could be considered in how far they are from the "norm" (or average in this case).

I have trouble accepting someone else (be it lab coated or not) deciding or evaluating whether or not my behavior is "normal", "acceptable" or "deviant from the norm". Just because you can measure it (with surveys etc) doesn't mean it's important. Again, please don't allow us to be pigeon-holed. We have some similarities and some differences in who we all are. Huh? Just like REAL people.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Normal is too broad a term to be used for behavioral traits that may differ from one culture or time period to another. One could say that racism, sexism and homophobia were historically "normal behaviors" when we probably mean "accepted behaviors". Constants, like body temp, could be considered in how far they are from the "norm" (or average in this case).

Call it what you wish , you just repeated what was said in the first paragraph I quoted in your own words.

I have trouble accepting someone else (be it lab coated or not) deciding or evaluating whether or not my behavior is "normal", "acceptable" or "deviant from the norm". Just because you can measure it (with surveys etc) doesn't mean it's important. Again, please don't allow us to be pigeon-holed. We have some similarities and some differences in who we all are. Huh? Just like REAL people.

There are many examples from everyday life where you , I , and others accept someone else deciding where our behavior is "normal", "acceptable" or "deviant from the norm".
. Driving
. Finacial Matters
. Law
. Medical treatment.

I can also probably list 30-40 things that you may consider deviant enoght to draw a line on.

We are pigeon-holed all the time in life.

One of the most important opportunities in the TG community, is that with sites like Wekipedia and some of the other information sites, we an contribute to how we define ourselves.

[ChristiesGurl]

Normal is over rated. Besides why would I want to be the same as most everyone else? Bah!

[juligirl1984]

I like to be above Normal lol! its neat to see how proud you all of who you are! congrats.

[Alice Torn]

Heavy stuff! Some is right, some not as right, but, dittos to Doc! One thing for sure, anything can be harmful, if it takes over your life, or goes to extreme addiction.

[t-girlxsophie]

As It relates to ourselves"Normal" Is just what those that have closed minds about crossdressers,want us to be.

:hugs:Sophie

[Miss Misery]

[QUOTE=Kelly DeWinter;2336657]There are many examples from everyday life where you , I , and others accept someone else deciding where our behavior is "normal", "acceptable" or "deviant from the norm".

. Driving (who decides how I drive? I choose to follow laws or not.).
Finacial Matters ( not sure how someone else decides the "normality" of this one. And we've certainly "accepted" some pretty deviant behavior in this realm.).
Law (isn't this covered under driving?).
Medical treatment. (do you choose to accept the treatment or not or does the MD come and force it upon you? You get medical OPINIONS from people who PRACTICE medicine.)

My original point is that those terms come to us from statistics - in which we're just measuring something - like the average number of crossdressers in a population or income group. But we're not making a value judgement (ie acceptable). Unfortunately, these terms now also carry a value-judgement - deviant from the norm for example - geniuses are deviant from the norm with regard to intelligence but we call that gifted, not deviant.

I can also probably list 30-40 things that you may consider deviant enoght to draw a line on.
Deviant isn't the right word. Unacceptable, perhaps. But not because something deviates from the norm, but because it is wrong (causing harm for instance).

We are pigeon-holed all the time in life.
Doesn't mean we should encourage others to do it or ask others not to do it. Oversimplification usually gets things wrong.

One of the most important opportunities in the TG community, is that with sites like Wekipedia and some of the other information sites, we an contribute to how we define ourselves.
While I think wikipedia can be of "some" value, the credibility of info there always needs to be questioned. That said, it also sounds like you're saying you don't like being defined or pigeon-holed yourself. The best comment for wiki would be that "the TG community is made up of a diverse mix of people, male and female, occasional CD's to fulltime transitioned TS's. Some find it a sexual thing and others don't. Some have accepting SO's and some hide it or don't have a long term relationship ......" How do you want to be defined? I, for one, prefer not to be defined. Just my opinion.QUOTE]

[NicoleScott]

4) However, when sexual behavior or difficulties bother a patient or the patient's partner or cause harm, treatment is warranted."



That's good stuff, Kelly. I'm not too sure about that 4th bullet point. Some crossdressing is sexual behavior-based, but not all. Sexual behavior running out of control may very well need treatment. But is identity-based crossdressing considered a sexual problem by the psychology community, or just a fact of life that isn't a malady and doesn't need treatment? If a partner considers it a problem or causes harm (say, to the marrage), maybe treatment is called for..... for the partner.
My crossdressing isn't identity-based, it's fetish based (sexual excitement), but it causes no harm. My point is that some crossdressers, like some golfers, fishermen, joggers, or workers, are way too out of balance and help is called for. Unfortunately, those cases seem to label all crossdressers in need of treatment to rid them of their condition.

[Frédérique]

Most transvestites do not present for treatment. Those who do are brought in by an unhappy spouse, referred by courts, or self-referred out of concern about experiencing negative social and employment consequences.


What we now see based on historical evidence, is that attitudes towards crossdressing although may not be 'widely' accepted in Western Culture based on historical past. Crossdressing is accepted at least 'narrowly' today and is becoming more accepted with each passing day within Western Culture. Current trends indicate crossdressing will continue to do so in the future.

Interesting. I did read each page (from the links) a few times, so my comments are based on what I saw…

Obviously, crossdressing will continue, that’s a given. Here’s another certainty – we are trapped in Western culture, for better or worse, a never-ending cycle of hypocritical thinking and the need for “treatment.” Imagine living in a world where you assume, by all that you’ve been told to believe, that your natural urges are somehow damaging, shameful, and worthy of misplaced guilt. Treatment is warranted – that phrase scares me, but that’s exactly how out of balance things are in this day and age. Innocent crossdressing is lumped in with paraphilia, pedophilia, and other sexual disorders purely for convenience, perhaps in an effort to get thee hence to the nearest healer – it must be wrong, whatever you’re doing, for whatever reason, because it falls outside of societal norms and the precepts of acceptable behavior…

I should talk, since I’m well-adjusted, HAPPY, and distrustful of societal expectations, but this penchant for correction, treatment, and therapy that exists in our sexually repressed world is suspect, at least in my eyes. Healer, heal thyself, I say, and get in touch with the very things you seek to correct, or distance yourself from, and learn how to live. Is it so terrible to be happy, and do the things some people only dream of, only to dismiss them out of hand, fearful of the inevitable consequences? Guess what – there’s a world out there, within reach, where the senses are used and celebrated as instruments of enlightenment. Instead of saying something like “crossdressing does not always cause distress or impairment,” how about adding that it can cause great joy, a sense of well-being, and a reason for living that more clinical, and accepted, over-intellectualized beings do not bother to consider? I know, some transvestites “do not present for treatment,” but that sinister phrase implies that they should surrender and have their precious individuality psychologically removed, for the good of all concerned. Don’t expect me to do that – not now, not ever…

Is that a serious enough reply for you?

[Kelly DeWinter]

... Is that a serious enough reply for you?

yes, very insightful, thanks for the input.

[QUOTE=Kelly DeWinter;2336657]There are many examples from everyday life where you , I , and others accept someone else deciding where our behavior is "normal", "acceptable" or "deviant from the norm".

. Driving (who decides how I drive? I choose to follow laws or not.).
(The legislators decide. You choose to follow laws based on the cosequenses of not following the laws, if you disagree, speed in front of the police some day, the faster you go the higher the price you pay in fines and jail time, you will ONLY go as fast as your wallet can handle)

Finacial Matters ( not sure how someone else decides the "normality" of this one. And we've certainly "accepted" some pretty deviant behavior in this realm.).
If you buy something you have to pay for it in terms established by law, mony,barter,trade,etc.
Law (isn't this covered under driving?).
pretty much , it was late when i wrote this.
Medical treatment. (do you choose to accept the treatment or not or does the MD come and force it upon you? You get medical OPINIONS from people who PRACTICE medicine.)
both can happen

My original point is that those terms come to us from statistics - in which we're just measuring something - like the average number of crossdressers in a population or income group. But we're not making a value judgement (ie acceptable). Unfortunately, these terms now also carry a value-judgement - deviant from the norm for example - geniuses are deviant from the norm with regard to intelligence but we call that gifted, not deviant.

I can also probably list 30-40 things that you may consider deviant enoght to draw a line on.
Deviant isn't the right word. Unacceptable, perhaps. But not because something deviates from the norm, but because it is wrong (causing harm for instance).
The deviant term i ment was something so deviant that it would bother the most hard core person

We are pigeon-holed all the time in life.
Doesn't mean we should encourage others to do it or ask others not to do it. Oversimplification usually gets things wrong.
I dount understand, what do you mean ?

One of the most important opportunities in the TG community, is that with sites like Wekipedia and some of the other information sites, we an contribute to how we define ourselves.
While I think wikipedia can be of "some" value, the credibility of info there always needs to be questioned. That said, it also sounds like you're saying you don't like being defined or pigeon-holed yourself. The best comment for wiki would be that "the TG community is made up of a diverse mix of people, male and female, occasional CD's to fulltime transitioned TS's. Some find it a sexual thing and others don't. Some have accepting SO's and some hide it or don't have a long term relationship ......" How do you want to be defined? I, for one, prefer not to be defined. Just my opinion.QUOTE]

I do agree with you, I'm ok with lables, because lables help us understand things

[Kathryn Martin]

One of the most problematic aspects of this entire debate is that it originated with the newly found discipline of psychiatry and psychology early in 20th century. It laid claim to it by classifying it as a mental disorder when in fact like most variations on human existence only certain specific aspects and behaviors could really be classified as such.

In my view you cannot possibly compare the reality of being submitted to driving regulations, laws, social and biological to being submitted to classification and possible forceable treatment of our condition. Firstly, there is a difference between different conditions:

-I do not consider crossdressing in any way deviant behavior unless it is associated with sexual behavior that is either harmful to others or harmful to self. If it were otherwise, all forms of indulgence would have to be treated in which there is an arousal component.

-cultivating the female inside, that is being gender variant in some form, cannot be a mental disorder just simply someone says it's outside the norm. Unless harm results to self or others there is no disorder.

-transitioning as a transsexual is not a mental disorder, because it is not the mind that is wrong by the biological events surrounding gestation and genetics. Most females have XX chromosomes and most males XY. In a small number of cases there may be xx-males or xy females or really complex combination. If that occurs and the "switches" for the development of genitalia during gestation are not correctly switched then you can have a person whose gender is different from their sex. Those people will seek to correct their body because it is the only way to cure the fault. This is essentially a physical defect not a mental disorder.

If you analyze the proponents of mental disorder, then you find that it is always the harm component which ultimately makes it a mental disorder. This however applies to all mental disorders.

Owning the narrative is hugely important because the interest the "industry" has in defining the narrative, the story are not our interests.

My 2 cents

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

I read the articles and really began to see myself in an old library, heavily timbered, candle lit desk and dressed in drab late 19th century costume. I felt like I had time travelled to a century of torment. I must admit I felt very timid and confined as I read. I often wondered to what extent parents and society have on a person's life. I wonder to what extent the family doctor plays a healthy part in addressing a sexual issue that may be abnormal to society in general.
If a person has a gender issue then society as a whole must be educated in being able to identify this issue and help the person through the emotional roller coaster ride at an earlier age than leave it for the person alone to try and find their social position later in life. Why has western culture taken so long to acknowledge that some people have gender issues and that the issue does not make them a sexual deviant/predator. Nor does it negate their contribution to society.
I have heard that some Asian countries like Burma, Thailand, and some Pacific islands do accept people with gender identity issues into society. Western society maybe growing in socially accepting people with gender issues but I fear it will take a long time before it will be fully accepted. Maybe the Dutch are leading the way for helping Gender identity issues but yet they are subject to critisism. Some people are offered sex reassignment therapy at pre-puberty age under new guidelines for gender identity disorder. Yep gender identity is associated as a disorder according to the second article it is considered as a mental disorder. But is prepuberty too young to be labelled with a mental disorder and treatment to physically change the person's genitals?("Psychiatric Comorbidity of Gender Identity Disorders: A Survey Among Dutch Psychiatrists" http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/160/7/1332) It seems as though some cases of Gender identity disorders are in fact other mental disorders. This is an interesting article and well worth the effort to read.
I was disturbed by the third article concerning Paraphilias. "Paraphilias are recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, urges, or behaviors that are distressing or disabling and that involve inanimate objects, children or other nonconsenting adults, or suffering or humiliation of oneself or the partner." and that " Transvestic fetishism: Heterosexual males who dress in women's clothing typically begin such behavior in late childhood " and also "A more common term for transvestite is cross-dresser. This behavior is associated, at least initially, with sexual arousal." Again the labels and the reference to fetish and being used in the context of sexuality, boxes cross-dressing into a nest of rather undesirable sexual deviants. I know that I do not get sexual excited dressed, but I am pleased with my presentation as a woman to MY WORLD and not the world of others. I do not get off at looking at CD dressed, having sex or anything else of a sexual "deviant" nature. I do admire some of the outfits that are presented by others and love fashion. If I wish to present myself as a member of the opposite sex, have a healthy life and contribute to society in any way I can, I cannot see an issue for me to be negatively labelled. If I conform to the norm of my social network then where are the boundaries to which I cannot cross. Who has the right to label me as suggested by their so called norm. If anything, have my parents contributed to who I am now, probably yes. Do I accept who I am? Yes but does society accept me for who I am? Time for sleep as I lean over the desk and gently blow my candle flame extinguishing the light that enabled me to see that which I have just read.

[Kelly DeWinter]

One of the most problematic aspects of this entire debate is that it originated with the newly found discipline of psychiatry and psychology early in 20th century. It laid claim to it by classifying it as a mental disorder when in fact like most variations on human existence only certain specific aspects and behaviors could really be classified as such.

In my view you cannot possibly compare the reality of being submitted to driving regulations, laws, social and biological to being submitted to classification and possible forceable treatment of our condition. Firstly, there is a difference between different conditions:

-I do not consider crossdressing in any way deviant behavior unless it is associated with sexual behavior that is either harmful to others or harmful to self. If it were otherwise, all forms of indulgence would have to be treated in which there is an arousal component.

-cultivating the female inside, that is being gender variant in some form, cannot be a mental disorder just simply someone says it's outside the norm. Unless harm results to self or others there is no disorder.

-transitioning as a transsexual is not a mental disorder, because it is not the mind that is wrong by the biological events surrounding gestation and genetics. Most females have XX chromosomes and most males XY. In a small number of cases there may be xx-males or xy females or really complex combination. If that occurs and the "switches" for the development of genitalia during gestation are not correctly switched then you can have a person whose gender is different from their sex. Those people will seek to correct their body because it is the only way to cure the fault. This is essentially a physical defect not a mental disorder.

If you analyze the proponents of mental disorder, then you find that it is always the harm component which ultimately makes it a mental disorder. This however applies to all mental disorders.

Owning the narrative is hugely important because the interest the "industry" has in defining the narrative, the story are not our interests.

My 2 cents

You brought up some very good points. Changes in Medical and Scientific philosophies can be hard to change at times, the good news is that once enough eveidence is presented , change does occur. (Flat earth, etc) At times the changes can seem glacial, Just in the last 20 years the definition of what your Gender is has been seperated from the term Sex. I would say by reading a lot of posts in this forum, that a good many of our members have a better understanding of Gender Identity Issues, then most counselors. The biggest issue I see in the counseling/therapy field, is that counselors/therapists, for the most part when seeing a patient or couple , and they come accross an issue such as GID, they do not reffer the person or couple to a counselor who specializes in GID. It's like an auto mechanic, attempting to work on a jet engine. Just because the auto mechanic thinks he can fix a jet engine, does bot mean he should. (no offense to any auto mechanics)

Kelly


I read the articles and really began to see myself in an old library, heavily timbered, candle lit desk and dressed in drab late 19th century costume. I felt like I had time travelled to a century of torment. I must admit I felt very timid and confined as I read. I often wondered to what extent parents and society have on a person's life. I wonder to what extent the family doctor plays a healthy part in addressing a sexual issue that may be abnormal to society in general.
If a person has a gender issue then society as a whole must be educated in being able to identify this issue and help the person through the emotional roller coaster ride at an earlier age than leave it for the person alone to try and find their social position later in life. Why has western culture taken so long to acknowledge that some people have gender issues and that the issue does not make them a sexual deviant/predator. Nor does it negate their contribution to society.
I have heard that some Asian countries like Burma, Thailand, and some Pacific islands do accept people with gender identity issues into society. Western society maybe growing in socially accepting people with gender issues but I fear it will take a long time before it will be fully accepted. Maybe the Dutch are leading the way for helping Gender identity issues but yet they are subject to critisism. Some people are offered sex reassignment therapy at pre-puberty age under new guidelines for gender identity disorder. Yep gender identity is associated as a disorder according to the second article it is considered as a mental disorder. But is prepuberty too young to be labelled with a mental disorder and treatment to physically change the person's genitals?("Psychiatric Comorbidity of Gender Identity Disorders: A Survey Among Dutch Psychiatrists" http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/160/7/1332) It seems as though some cases of Gender identity disorders are in fact other mental disorders. This is an interesting article and well worth the effort to read.
I was disturbed by the third article concerning Paraphilias. "Paraphilias are recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, urges, or behaviors that are distressing or disabling and that involve inanimate objects, children or other nonconsenting adults, or suffering or humiliation of oneself or the partner." and that " Transvestic fetishism: Heterosexual males who dress in women's clothing typically begin such behavior in late childhood " and also "A more common term for transvestite is cross-dresser. This behavior is associated, at least initially, with sexual arousal." Again the labels and the reference to fetish and being used in the context of sexuality, boxes cross-dressing into a nest of rather undesirable sexual deviants. I know that I do not get sexual excited dressed, but I am pleased with my presentation as a woman to MY WORLD and not the world of others. I do not get off at looking at CD dressed, having sex or anything else of a sexual "deviant" nature. I do admire some of the outfits that are presented by others and love fashion. If I wish to present myself as a member of the opposite sex, have a healthy life and contribute to society in any way I can, I cannot see an issue for me to be negatively labelled. If I conform to the norm of my social network then where are the boundaries to which I cannot cross. Who has the right to label me as suggested by their so called norm. If anything, have my parents contributed to who I am now, probably yes. Do I accept who I am? Yes but does society accept me for who I am? Time for sleep as I lean over the desk and gently blow my candle flame extinguishing the light that enabled me to see that which I have just read.


LOL, the candle , was so funny. True there are parts that I read and go ??? How did they get that ? One of my thoughts in starting the thread was, that we need to understand where the medical community is comming from right, or wrong.

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

I am sorry that you have taken my reply as comical and highly questionable, I certainly did not intend it to be. Maybe that is why the medical community do not want to tackle and pursue hard problems. Any problem that arises from an issue that is abnormal is treated as comical and too questionable. Maybe the medical community should take more notice from the scientific and engineering communities and employ their tactics in tackling hard issues to formulate answers that benefit society and not to dictate a place high up in the ivory castle as if they are the center of all knowledge. Thank you for reading my comedy, I return to that library where the candle burns and the atmosphere is drab to read someone elses topic and question if I should sacrifice a few minutes in writing another comedy.

[Kelly DeWinter]

I'm sorry, I ment only the part about the candle, It was a great imagery the way you wrote it. I am NOT laughing at or questioning your comment ! I humbly ask your forgiveness.

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

No problems, I deleted my original reply as it was a mere flippant reply with no real structure and contribution. After reading the articles and re-reading as if it was an examination topic I thought it deserved more time and preparation in my time to read a lil more broadly on the topic. My so called medical professional laughs at crossdressers and is flippant with his attitude, I hence never approach the topic again with him. I am not a medical consultant nor anything to do with the medical industry so I keep him for accessing antibiotics for flu and colds hence my attitude to practicioners are not positive. I always forgive, no need to worry. I accept critisism and if I am at fault, I learn from my mistakes. I dread the day when I take myself as so knowledgable I am above questioning and reasoning, that day would be the day i never learn and my knowledge implodes devouring me to excrete me as *(^&.

[Kathryn Martin]

You brought up some very good points. Changes in Medical and Scientific philosophies can be hard to change at times, the good news is that once enough eveidence is presented , change does occur. (Flat earth, etc) At times the changes can seem glacial, Just in the last 20 years the definition of what your Gender is has been seperated from the term Sex. I would say by reading a lot of posts in this forum, that a good many of our members have a better understanding of Gender Identity Issues, then most counselors. The biggest issue I see in the counseling/therapy field, is that counselors/therapists, for the most part when seeing a patient or couple , and they come accross an issue such as GID, they do not reffer the person or couple to a counselor who specializes in GID. It's like an auto mechanic, attempting to work on a jet engine. Just because the auto mechanic thinks he can fix a jet engine, does bot mean he should. (no offense to any auto mechanics)

Kelly

I like your similes. What it is more like is the auto mechanic stating that the jet engine doesn't work because there is no gas in the tank, and because he was right then claiming to be a jet engine mechanic.

The problem is that what is actually diagnosed are the results of experiencing dissociation because of an incongruence between inner experience and outer appearance. Because the resulting condition can be a debilitating mental disorder, i.e. depression, everything is lumped together. So they see "depression" they hear of gender issues and voila = gender dysphoria, a new mental disorder that is specific to us without regard to the obvious truth that depression can have all kinds of different sources. .

For transsexuals it is even worse because the consequential issues which can be severe such as depression and self mutilation are the result of a physical birth defect which no one wants touch except the person suffering from it.

The other issue is of course the classification of behavior or physical configuration as "normal" against which they measure that which is not. As we all know bio diversity in human existence has always been the source of value differentiations. We call that discrimination, ordinarily. Likewise, diversity in emotional, mind, soul of human beings has been made the source of differentiation based on value. This is the source of the whole debate about the savages and the cultured people etc.

So if the majority is the measure of the normal, i.e. living in a predominantly white bi-gender (that is there are only males and females and males have penises and women have vaginas) system, then if you are not white you are outside of normal (and we have seen where this ended up) or you are a female with an accidental penis you are outside of normal, or you are non-white and are male but have a vagina you are outside of normal. The problem is that you can turn this things every which way you want to you will always find that it cannot be an absolute because if you live in a non-white society but are bi-gender correct to norm you are still outside of norm and so forth. It is unfortunately as Bill Maher says just simply the greatest display of stupidity because it is all a lie.

You can take this one step further: if you accept that the consequential depression disorders make the underlying dissociation a mental disorder in themselves i.e. "gender dysphoria" then it would follow that a depression resulting from racial outside of the norm person creates a "racial dysphoria" that would be considered a mental disorder. AND i DO NOT THINK ANYONE, I REPEAT ANYONE WANTS TO EVEN GO NEAR THIS ONE. What it reveals is that it is essentially a ploy, because it creates two things: firstly, an industry both in the psychiatric and surgical and pharmacological field, and the more we can diagnose the more money is in it, and secondly, we gain control over a whole segment of the population which we as a society consider somewhat destabilizing, by calling them crazy.

Think about it ........

[danielleb]

" Accepted norms of sexual behavior and attitudes vary greatly within and among different cultures. Health care practitioners should never be judgmental of sexual behaviors, even under societal pressure. Generally, what is normal and abnormal cannot be defined medically. However, when sexual behavior or difficulties bother a patient or the patient's partner or cause harm, treatment is warranted."

I know I've read several stories as of late where the practitioners should have read through this statement, a couple times over.


....or putting togeather a bike at christmas, finding 'extra' parts....

I can help you out with that.:heehee:


Most children with these disorders are not evaluated until they are age 6 to 9, at a point when the disorder is already chronic.

How do they determine when GID is "chronic". Have they "broken" the habbit in 2 yr. olds that would have otherwise gone to live with a GID? I think this is a large shame of society as we know it, to impose our own ideals about GI upon children that are telling us otherwise. If more parents just stopped to listen to what their child was saying, and didn't snap to perceiving it as a "disorder" we'd be much farther along. Also, I think we (as a society) would be better informed on the handling of these types of issues.


However, as treatments improve, female-to-male transsexualism is increasingly seen in medical and psychiatric practice.

I think this is in large part due to increasing awareness of available options, and hopefully from a reduction in the number of suicides generated prior to available treatments. I know had I been born 20-30 years earlier, I would have most certainly been lobotomized early in life.:drooling:



I wonder if there is a connection between intelligence and tolerance/acceptance.

Of course! Just look at your paycheck!:D

[Kelly DeWinter]

I like your similes. What it is more like is the auto mechanic stating that the jet engine doesn't work because there is no gas in the tank, and because he was right then claiming to be a jet engine mechanic.

The problem is that what is actually diagnosed are the results of experiencing dissociation because of an incongruence between inner experience and outer appearance. Because the resulting condition can be a debilitating mental disorder, i.e. depression, everything is lumped together. So they see "depression" they hear of gender issues and voila = gender dysphoria, a new mental disorder that is specific to us without regard to the obvious truth that depression can have all kinds of different sources. .

For transsexuals it is even worse because the consequential issues which can be severe such as depression and self mutilation are the result of a physical birth defect which no one wants touch except the person suffering from it.

The other issue is of course the classification of behavior or physical configuration as "normal" against which they measure that which is not. As we all know bio diversity in human existence has always been the source of value differentiations. We call that discrimination, ordinarily. Likewise, diversity in emotional, mind, soul of human beings has been made the source of differentiation based on value. This is the source of the whole debate about the savages and the cultured people etc.

So if the majority is the measure of the normal, i.e. living in a predominantly white bi-gender (that is there are only males and females and males have penises and women have vaginas) system, then if you are not white you are outside of normal (and we have seen where this ended up) or you are a female with an accidental penis you are outside of normal, or you are non-white and are male but have a vagina you are outside of normal. The problem is that you can turn this things every which way you want to you will always find that it cannot be an absolute because if you live in a non-white society but are bi-gender correct to norm you are still outside of norm and so forth. It is unfortunately as Bill Maher says just simply the greatest display of stupidity because it is all a lie.

You can take this one step further: if you accept that the consequential depression disorders make the underlying dissociation a mental disorder in themselves i.e. "gender dysphoria" then it would follow that a depression resulting from racial outside of the norm person creates a "racial dysphoria" that would be considered a mental disorder. AND i DO NOT THINK ANYONE, I REPEAT ANYONE WANTS TO EVEN GO NEAR THIS ONE. What it reveals is that it is essentially a ploy, because it creates two things: firstly, an industry both in the psychiatric and surgical and pharmacological field, and the more we can diagnose the more money is in it, and secondly, we gain control over a whole segment of the population which we as a society consider somewhat destabilizing, by calling them crazy.

Think about it ........


Kathryn;

You bring up a lot of valid points. Depression is a very serious issue, especially when one is trying to figure out big issues in their lives.