Clocked by a Gesture?

[Shananigans]

I work at a parasitology lab with mostly women, so most of the time we are sitting at our microscopes and jibber jabbering. The topic of conversation this time?...Clocking a transgendered person. (Now, when you are reading this...realize where I live and how this could be the topic of conversation for a small town woman in Alabama).

My coworker was telling a story of how she was at the pharmacy when this young woman walked in. She said the woman was nicely dressed and blah blah. She said that she hadn't really paid attention to the girl until she did something weird...she took both of her hands and using her fingertips, gently brushed the hair back from her forehead in soft little movements repeatedly. My coworker imitated the gesture. (I wish I could imitate it for y'all...but...I can't...so, if you don't get what I am saying, just comment below).

I laughed a little and said, "Trying to be girlie much?" And, my coworker said, "YES! That's what I thought. I thought it was so strange because I never really see women do that...but, I see that gesture done when comedians are imitating women...you know...stuff like that." As soon as she said "imitating women" I knew where she was going. "So, I looked closer and this young woman had very large hands...a long, lean body that was matched with artificial breasts...and an Adam's apple..." I told her that it seemed like she had clocked a transgendered person. She said that she had thought the same thing and her thoughts were confirmed when she heard the girl talking to the pharmacist in a deeper-toned voice.

This got me to thinking...my coworker initially had NO idea that she was looking at a transgendered person when she initially saw the woman...it wasn't until she saw a gesture out of the ordinary that got her to clue in and start to scrutinize.

Has this ever happened to you? Have you caught yourself in public doing something that made you afraid that you were clocked? Maybe it wasn't an overly feminine gesture...but, maybe you accidentally did something inherently male? If so, did anyone say anything?

Or, maybe you have heard stories from friends or coworkers that have clocked a transgendered person and then related the story to you (like in my situation)...what gave away the transgendered person in these situations?

P.S.

I don't want to make anyone paranoid (just trying to get a convo going). Remember where it is that me and my coworker are working...a parasitology lab...it's our job to be unusually observant. ;)

[LeannL]

Shannan,
I am sure I have been clocked by a gesture but it was most likely a male gesture while dress en femme. I know one that I catch myself doing still while dressed and that is the little head nod guys give other (mostly) guys. When I catch myself doing it, I really try to do the female-to-female smile.

Good question :)

Leann

[marny]

I can' t countr trhe
tmes someone has felt my bra strap.:D

[CharleneT]

Small gestures can be very important. As described above, once the "odd" gesture was noticed, then she started to ponder/analyse the person .. .which lead to clocking her. I think it is very common to over do gestures, or do them in the wrong moment. There's a zen to it !

[Kiera79]

I was in Auburn in August for a work assignment over the first weekend of the month and let me tell you I didn't like it at all. I hardly seen any african american's at all and the attitude's there were horrible. People just speak any kind of way to you snd so forth. I was so glad to get home it was unreal. And it seemed like it rained, stormed every evening.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Ok, you lost me at 'clocking', What does it mean, and where did it come from ?

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

An interesting comment Shananigans. I have been studying women and their walk :) and also their speech and gestures and I have noticed that many women walk, talk and gesture differently. If one googles "how to walk like a female" then the advice offered really makes the average female walk look quite different. The movements of the average female in walk mode are so subtle: the sway of the hips; the placement of the arms; the arm swing; even to the curl of the fingers and the look. Some females look like a guy when they walk yet still look feminine. The voices are all different but yet they sound female. Some men talk deep and so too some women yet they differ. Even down to the very subtle standing pose, pointing with their fingers and even the way they wear a shoulder bag. Even looking at many female figures they differ so much. Broad shoulders and narrow hips to narrow shoulders and broad hips. That is very clever observation and I think a very important point to adhere to: subtle. I think that is why some actors are brilliant because they take the pertinent gestures and attributes that identify a person and copy it NATURALLY. That is why I guess I cannot act because I become conscious of the action and tend to accent it more than making natural. Wow, very good.

[Julogden]

Ok, you lost me at 'clocking', What does it mean, and where did it come from ?

It means to be detected as not being a member of the gender you're presenting as. I think it's a reference to being caught speeding while driving, i.e. being clocked at xx m.p.h., but now being applied to passing.

Back in the late 1980's when I was hanging around with drag queen friends in Chicago, that was a term they used. I don't know how long it's been in use, but it's been since at least then.

Carol

[Kelly DeWinter]

It means to be detected as not being a member of the gender you're presenting as. I think it's a reference to being caught speeding while driving, i.e. being clocked at xx m.p.h., but now being applied to passing.

Back in the late 1980's when I was hanging around with drag queen friends in Chicago, that was a term they used. I don't know how long it's been in use, but it's been since at least then.

Carol

Thanks I was beginning to think it ment leaving your mans wath on while dressing.

[Karren H]

Guess the car behind me figured out I wasn't a woman when I rolled the window down and spat a big one all the way accross the street? Damn habits hard to break! Lol

[Christy_M]

Guess the car behind me figured out I wasn't a woman when I rolled the window down and spat a big one all the way accross the street? Damn habits hard to break! Lol

Well there's a pleasant thought...what a delicate little flower:D

[alice clair]

Karren, I would love to be your freind and be around you alot, you are soooo bad. You are one of the folks on here that really speaks her mind. I think you are soo cool. I also think you are very pretty.
Michelle

[JOJO44]

Guess the car behind me figured out I wasn't a woman when I rolled the window down and spat a big one all the way accross the street? Damn habits hard to break! Lol

Nose stuffy, do a farmer john!:D:o
No one would clock you on that one!:devil::devil:

[Bobbi Lynn]

Was it snuff, red man or mail pouch?


Guess the car behind me figured out I wasn't a woman when I rolled the window down and spat a big one all the way accross the street? Damn habits hard to break! Lol

[Emme]

I can' t countr trhe
tmes someone has felt my bra strap.
My brother...who knows about Emme but is in polite denial, has on occasion, reached down the back of my man pants and gave a gentle pull up. His way if letting me know he saw my black or blue or pink panties.
But he will not say a word!

[sterling12]

I think there are probably an infinite number of ways to get "clocked." If "The Clocker" is really studying "The Potential Clokee," I imagine it would be impossible to fool A Genetic Woman over any period longer than a few minutes. But with very little luck, about 99.9% of ALL People, men AND women are so preoccupied with their lives, talking on their cell phones, controlling their offspring, looking for that cheap can of dog food; they aren't going to notice that the person next to them even exists, let alone their Gender Status!

Nani, I would suggest your co-worker is quite unusual. Apparently, she had the time to actually take a look at someone who was close by and study them for at least a few minutes. That's pretty amazing, it's much more The Norm for The Gal standing next to you to unapologetically crash into you with The Shopping Cart, without even noticing The Bleeding!

Be careful with this people. The "Newbies" are paranoid enough already. They need some assurance that getting "clocked" is NOT the usual situation. All potential Gurls who want to hit The Street....be aware that it's not super hard to "blend," and you won't experience Crowds with Torches and Pitchforks waiting to destroy you!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Shananigans]

I was in Auburn in August for a work assignment over the first weekend of the month and let me tell you I didn't like it at all. I hardly seen any african american's at all and the attitude's there were horrible. People just speak any kind of way to you snd so forth. I was so glad to get home it was unreal. And it seemed like it rained, stormed every evening.

Couldn't agree with you more. I was actually talking about that tonight with a friend. I miss Birmingham. I miss the diversity of people. It seems like everyone is more or less the same around here...or, at least they put on that they all share the same ideals.

Unfortunately, I don't share those ideals so I am kind of an oddball.

I think there are probably an infinite number of ways to get "clocked." If "The Clocker" is really studying "The Potential Clokee," I imagine it would be impossible to fool A Genetic Woman over any period longer than a few minutes. But with very little luck, about 99.9% of ALL People, men AND women are so preoccupied with their lives, talking on their cell phones, controlling their offspring, looking for that cheap can of dog food; they aren't going to notice that the person next to them even exists, let alone their Gender Status!

Nani, I would suggest your co-worker is quite unusual. Apparently, she had the time to actually take a look at someone who was close by and study them for at least a few minutes. That's pretty amazing, it's much more The Norm for The Gal standing next to you to unapologetically crash into you with The Shopping Cart, without even noticing The Bleeding!

Be careful with this people. The "Newbies" are paranoid enough already. They need some assurance that getting "clocked" is NOT the usual situation. All potential Gurls who want to hit The Street....be aware that it's not super hard to "blend," and you won't experience Crowds with Torches and Pitchforks waiting to destroy you!

Peace and Love, Joanie

Oh, she was waiting for her prescription to be refilled. I think the TG person that she saw was waiting in line to talk to the pharmacist, so she had some time to people watch.

I people watch too...so, I can't really say anything bad about that. People are more interesting/entertaining than cellphones.

Definitely not trying to freak out anyone. Although...I kind of want to say screw it...get clocked...Go out even if you don't pass well. There is such an emphasis on "passing" and I know for many, passing is the ultimate thing. (I'm alluding more to CDs here...it could be argued that TS's aren't necessarily trying to pass for the opposite sex if the TS person really identifies internally with the opposing gender). But, I just wonder why passing is such a big deal. Sure...you raise a few eyebrows (like with my coworker), but you gave that woman something to talk about. It was such a big deal to her that she told everyone at work...and by doing that we all talked about CDs.

Though everyone thought it was a strange event to see a man dressed as a woman at the pharmacy, no one said that they thought it was wrong or judged the person for it.

I know my SO and I will be venturing out to a concert soon...I don't know how well she will pass...but, I don't think that's as important as just getting out there. I know people will argue with me on this...some want to keep it strictly indoors. I'm just saying for those who Do want to go out, don't let being clocked keep you from doing so...

[noeleena]

Hi .

What would be the difference for this kid then,

Thinking about what you were talking about to your co workrer .

Would it be better for me to just ask people who see me , not just those who know me . those who see me quite a bit & when we get people coming through our Village, & i say hi to them tho iv never met or seen them before.

I would say with out any dought that people look at me all the time , i look at them straight on & i love watching them .

I spent 11 years wearing wigs so i could hide in part behind that. as you know, no way any more,.

Body langage for me is real its not contrived not put on , not acted , the gestures for some as said are a give away ,

I express my self in a way that is just who i am its not over the top , as has been shown .

I do see quite a difference with some trans people as to natal women . & some its so over exagerated. over trying , i spos is the word.
& even those i know do things differently & they are just women , how do you explain in words what you need to show,
just being a woman & thats natural for me .

...noeleena...

[Rebecca Sue]

Couldn't agree with you more. I was actually talking about that tonight with a friend. I miss Birmingham. I miss the diversity of people. It seems like everyone is more or less the same around here...or, at least they put on that they all share the same ideals.

Unfortunately, I don't share those ideals so I am kind of an oddball.
.

It sounds more like you are fortunate than unfortunate.

[Rhonda Jean]

The subtleties are maddening! They're the reason some of us can be perfectly passable in a still photo and not at all passable actually doing anything.

The first time I actually knew for a fact I'd been read I was 24 or 25. I'd been going out frequently for about 5 years, and as far as I knew no one knew I wasn't a girl. Looking back I'm sure they did, but I was unaware of it. No point in going into deatails about that first time, but at the time it really scared me to think that I didn't pass completely. I went diretly home and tried to figure out how they knew. I couldn't see it. I just had to find out. I started experimenting with little situations where I could ask. For instance, I went to the donut shop and intentionally ordered in a male voice and said something like, "I bet I'm your first male customer in a dress today!" Outing myself in this way gave me the opening to find out if I'd passed up until that point, and if I didn't, what was it that gave me away. Those times when I hadn't passed, almost all of them said, "I just knew!" It's the subtleties. The bleedover from living as a male. Contrived feminine subtleties are no better.

The big ones to me are walking, eating, dealing with a purse, and dealing with long hair. Those of us with long hair have an advantage because we're used to dealing with it all the time, and those subtleties bleed over from the feminine in a big way. I used to be made fun of in elementary school for holding my hair out of the water fountain "like a girl." It really had nothing to do with doing it like a girl. There's only one way to hold your hair out of a water fountain, it was just that no other boy had to do it, which made it a feminine thing.

For me, I no longer consciously act feminine, but I'm sometimes aware of a period of time that is transitional. It doesn't just instantly happen when I throw my purse over my shoulder. The drive to wherever I'm going is usually sufficient to relax into a more feminine personna. I've seen videos of girls who present pretty well until they walk, and then it's almost like they intentionally "bow up", as if to give the impression of, " Yea, I'm a guy in a dress. What are you going to do about it?"

The most pertinent example of this happend to me several months ago, the first time I went out with my gf when I was completely fem. I think it made it worse that I was wearing a dress, which is rare for me. Skirts, yes, but rarely dresses. I had this odd feeling of being the boyfriend and the role that that entails, in contrast to presenting as feminine as I could possibly be from the skin out. If I'd been alone, the transition would have occured during the drive over. Not in this situation, and I could feel it. I felt awkward, and I know it showed. Even before I got out of the car, my "boyfriend" brain saw my dress lying across my bare legs and those strappy heels and polished toes. My hands with those long polished nails on the steering wheel. When I got out of the car I felt awkwardly tall, and my purse felt so foreign. I was very aware of having breasts. My shoulders and hips stiffened, and I knew I was walking like a guy. It was probably an hour before I felt I had transitioned from boyfriend to girlfriend. The change was real and perceptable. She noticed it and commented on it (which made me temporarily revert to boyfriend).

I don't know how well I passed even after the transition had occured, but I know there is no way I passed before. Nothing had changed about my outward appearance. A still photo would have been no different, but the subtleties were obvious. It is a process to become truly relaxed into a feminine role. Maybe a years-long process just to get to where you can even do it, then a short transiton time between roles.

I don't kid myself about my level of passability, but I'd HATE to be seen as a man in a dress (skirt, whatever)! A distinction without a difference? Not to me. Not at all. I do my share of gender bending, but if I'm wearing something as overtly feminine as a skirt or dress, I'm doing everything humanly possible to appear as a female. If I don't, it won't be from a lack of trying, and that includes allowing myself to relax, and move in a more feminine way, smile, make eye contact, and engage.

[Inna]

I honestly think that assimilating into a role is a long process of accepting femininity. Those who indulge in CDing are in "on and off" mode which complicates fluid assimilation into a role as though playing a role as an actor. Perhaps some are much better then others but still it is a temporary event. On the other hand TS girls live femininity on day to day basis and step away from their male persona further each day. For them the assimilation is fluid and all encompassing and still it takes a while to fully sink in. Then there are relevant physical aspects making being clocked more possible. Attitude will go really far but there is a limit to that as well. I fought with all the aspects for a long time and came to a conclusion that at certain time you got to finally say: WTF and go with it!

[Pythos]

OMG, sweeping the hair from my eyes is a move that will get me clocked?!!! No kidding? All this time I thought it was....clearing the hair from my eyes so I could see clearly :)

LOL, we're just clocked, face it.

[Sallee]

I know I have been clocked and I thinkI usually pass but My problem is and I bet a lot of us have is we Walk like a man what ever that is but I know it is I fined it very hard not to Oh well I am still having fun and try not to worry about it and do try to Walk like a Woman. what ever that is

[Lorileah]

so once again we need "Miss Suzie's Book on how to act like a woman"? Let's take a for example. Chelsea Handler. I am fairly sure she is female...looks female, sounds female, has reputation as being a woman, yet last night on Leno, she was just as mannish in some gestures and speech as any guy from a high school locker room.

It has been said before that there are really no "male" and "female" exclusive gestures, walks, looks. Adam's apple? You all know that isn't the dead give away. I have seen plenty of females with noticeable larynx, big hands (or feet)? Why do you think they make size 10 women's rings? or 13 shoes (yeah believe they are just for "us". This keeps making the rounds, how to get noticed or how to NOT get noticed. Funny how no one noticed the person in the OP until she "overdid" something and yet, just maybe she could not get her hair to stay out of her face. Oy, people.

You will be noticed, you will be seen, you will get strange looks (mostly because we as a group still think we are breaking laws or rules and try REALLY hard to NOT be seen). They harder you try and blend the more noticeable you become because...real women don't work that hard at blending.

Do women put their hands on their hips with thumbs forward? How about which foot they put in front? Do you look at your nails with your hand cupped or fingers out? Do you breathe in slowly or fast? Do you walk one foot in front of the other or side to side? No what? No one does it the same way in any sex. I feel sorry for GG's who are not Barbie doll looking who get the "Are you a dude?" from people because they have large hands. sheesh

Clocking someone was originally meant as timing something, then through boxing and a ten second count it was "knocking someone out" It has later become used for observing someone or noticing something

[Miss Misery]

Amen, Lorileah!

I am also a people watcher and have seen plenty of women who have some features that appear to be male. Were they all TGs? Although I can't say for sure, it is highly unlikely. The gesture/mannerism issue is another one that covers the whole gamut - males w/ feminine gestures (are they all gay?), females with male walks (are they all TG?). No.

BUT - I do agree that when there is some incongruity between what we're taught to expect and what we observe, we tend to look a little closer. Really tall woman in the market? Is she a basketball player? Is she a she? ....... The unfortunate part for those trying to pass is that, while large hands, prominent adams apple, height, male walk (which I tend to believe has a lot to do with the difference in the anatomy of a woman's vs man's pelvis).... all can be found in females, they are not as common and tend to draw attention - to both genders. Not what you're looking for if you're trying to blend in. Like wearing 5 inch heels to the pharmacy - there are women who would do that and do. But it does draw attention.

Plus - how do we know that the person at the pharmacy WAS a true TG? Without asking we can only speculate.

Also, to clock someone also means to just clobber them - don't have to knock 'em out. Like "that person just got clocked in the head."

[Shananigans]

Hi .

What would be the difference for this kid then,

Thinking about what you were talking about to your co workrer .

Would it be better for me to just ask people who see me , not just those who know me . those who see me quite a bit & when we get people coming through our Village, & i say hi to them tho iv never met or seen them before.

I would say with out any dought that people look at me all the time , i look at them straight on & i love watching them .

I spent 11 years wearing wigs so i could hide in part behind that. as you know, no way any more,.

Body langage for me is real its not contrived not put on , not acted , the gestures for some as said are a give away ,

I express my self in a way that is just who i am its not over the top , as has been shown .

I do see quite a difference with some trans people as to natal women . & some its so over exagerated. over trying , i spos is the word.
& even those i know do things differently & they are just women , how do you explain in words what you need to show,
just being a woman & thats natural for me .

...noeleena...

It sounds to me like you have a good head on your shoulders and know yourself on a deeper level than most other individuals.


so once again we need "Miss Suzie's Book on how to act like a woman"? Let's take a for example. Chelsea Handler. I am fairly sure she is female...looks female, sounds female, has reputation as being a woman, yet last night on Leno, she was just as mannish in some gestures and speech as any guy from a high school locker room.

It has been said before that there are really no "male" and "female" exclusive gestures, walks, looks. Adam's apple? You all know that isn't the dead give away. I have seen plenty of females with noticeable larynx, big hands (or feet)? Why do you think they make size 10 women's rings? or 13 shoes (yeah believe they are just for "us". This keeps making the rounds, how to get noticed or how to NOT get noticed. Funny how no one noticed the person in the OP until she "overdid" something and yet, just maybe she could not get her hair to stay out of her face. Oy, people.

You will be noticed, you will be seen, you will get strange looks (mostly because we as a group still think we are breaking laws or rules and try REALLY hard to NOT be seen). They harder you try and blend the more noticeable you become because...real women don't work that hard at blending.

Do women put their hands on their hips with thumbs forward? How about which foot they put in front? Do you look at your nails with your hand cupped or fingers out? Do you breathe in slowly or fast? Do you walk one foot in front of the other or side to side? No what? No one does it the same way in any sex. I feel sorry for GG's who are not Barbie doll looking who get the "Are you a dude?" from people because they have large hands. sheesh

Haha Chelsea Handler WOULD say that!

Although, speaking of Adam's apples...I honestly have never seen one woman with a pronounced Adam's apple. I generally thought that men's Adam's apples became more prominent because the laryngeal cartilage elongates rapidly during puberty (something that only happens slightly in women and why our voices aren't as deep). Not saying a woman couldn't have an Adam's apple...but, just sayin'...I haven't seen it on a woman. I wear a size 10 shoe...I also have large hands and really long fingers (maybe due to a combo of playing basketball and violin most of my life...or, maybe crap genetics).

But, my coworker was talking along the lines of "man hands"...that whole thing that everyone is obsessed with on this forum. However, the point of the post was to say that this person was passing very well... I find that people on here become obsessed with things like being tall or having man hands... and though these things existed on this particular individual, these were not the things that were first noticed.

It was the unnatural behavior.

Unnatural behavior for women...unnatural for men. The person looked strange doing what she was doing and caught the attention of my coworker. I think that's where you hit the nail on the head when you say that if you are trying to blend in, you will be more noticeable. This is exactly what happened.

I think that to those who are really worried about passing in public should worry less about seemingly glaring physical features such as hands or height or Adam's apples (as this was not what was first noticed by my coworker who is a very observant lady), and worry more about being natural and comfortable in an environment that you generally feel unwelcome or uncomfortable in.

I was in No Way advocating a "Once again we need a Suzie's Book on how to be a woman"...just stating what happened at my work place and showing that stereotypical gestures that this CD or TS was told were inherently feminine looked unnatural, did NOT work, and gained uninviting attention.

So, I could only imagine how awkward someone else would look worrying about thumb placement on hips or what foot would come first.

[suchacutie]

The subtleties between the genders have been a source of many conversations with my wife. When I first started she was almost constantly explaining about what Tina could do to put across a more feminine image. At one point we discussed whether or not this was contrived since Tina's goal is to figure out who she is. We came to the conclusion that "deportment" was a part of being feminine, and it fed back upon itself! As Tina's deportment became naturally more feminine, she felt more comfortable with herself, and that fed the positive aspects of her deportment.

Now the conversation is more about voice and language subtle differences. Although crossdressing has been called the art of illusion (and one might make a case for the manipulation of a male body into a female presence an illusion), these subtleties, in our mind, are not part of an illusion but are a part of the feminine persona that, once pointed out, leads to an ever-more feminine feeling.

It just gets better!

tina