Do Females Crossdress?

[linda allen]

Do females crossdress? I'm not talking about lesbians, I'm talking about hetrosexual women. And I'm not talking about wearing an article of men's clothing from time to time, I'm talking about dressing to pretend they are males. Bind the breasts, hide the hair, pad the pants, etc?

Just wondering?

[Pythos]

Most do not. and the reason is very very simple. They can wear a male style and get away with it with nearly no stigma attached. My potential SO can switch from a skirted outfit to one with MALE pants and no one bats an eye. I go from a trousered style to one with leggings or a skirt, and do not take on any other feminine characteristics and I am doing what is equal to a major faux pas.

It is a double standard we are all aware of.

Jive Turkey on Rye here is a near perfect example of what I would love to do on a near daily basis if it was not for the threat of losing my reputation at my aviation related job. I already do a leggings version of his idea, and every now and then I get s**t for it

[Karren H]

No.... They just unintentionally dress like slobs I mean guys! Lol.

[sandra-leigh]

Yes, and there are a number of members here who do that. They haven't been very active online recently (that I've seen), but they are often in the Transmasculine section (they also have a private section.) The active members we have now tend to identify either as transsexual or as trans-confused (not an insult -- I've been trans-confused a lot myself!!), but there are also some that cross-dress just because they like to.


Most do not. and the reason is very very simple. They can wear a male style and get away with it with nearly no stigma attached.

A common misconception; if you read the histories in the Transmaculine section, you will see that in practice it can be very difficult for the transmen. The abuse that numerous of them have suffered with is heart-breaking. If you don't see more of them posting in this section, it is partly because many of them get upset at people who should know better dismissing their difficulties as being nearly non-existent.

[Ria]

No.... They just unintentionally dress like slobs I mean guys! Lol.

Hah! exactly...

[Kate Simmons]

It depends, most do not per se. Some folks just classify themselves as transmasculine.:)

[GaleWarning]

My take ... The first and second world wars forced women to do the work which used to be done by their men, as so many of them went off to fight.
Women worked in factories, for example, and grew to appreciate that they did have the personal attributes to run their own lives successfully.
They also wore men's clothing, for reasons of health and safety.

After the war, many of them went back to being ultra-feminine, but a few notable celebrities deliberately chose to wear more masculine styles.
They were not popular with the ruling class.

The pill and the spirit of the sixties came to offer women even more freedom to do as they chose. Pantyhose "liberated" them from restrictive foundation clothing.
A more relaxed dress code gradually evolved ... slacks became acceptable.
But all this took time and the efforts of a few brave souls.

Women's Lib has given women many freedoms, but it has also cost them dearly.
I'd love to expound on this.
Perhaps another time ...

[Gerrijerry]

I think many missed the point of the question.

"Do females crossdress? I'm not talking about lesbians, I'm talking about hetrosexual women. And I'm not talking about wearing an article of men's clothing from time to time, I'm talking about dressing to pretend they are males. Bind the breasts, hide the hair, pad the pants, etc?"

Simple answer yes of course they do.

[AllieSF]

Yes they do. Probably not anywhere near in numbers when compared to the MtF crossdressers. I met a FtM crossdresser in a dive dyke bar and had a great conversation withhim/her. However, I never did ask her if she was compelled to dress as most male crossdressers are or was only doing it now to be different, since females occasionally do like to wear items of men's clothing.

[JulieK1980]

Yes there are those that do.

[GaleWarning]

I think many missed the point of the question.

"Do females crossdress? I'm not talking about lesbians, I'm talking about hetrosexual women. And I'm not talking about wearing an article of men's clothing from time to time, I'm talking about dressing to pretend they are males. Bind the breasts, hide the hair, pad the pants, etc?"

Simple answer yes of course they do.

I wonder if you missed the point of my contribution. Yes, women do crossdress. They ALL do. Because society has accepted that they are able to.

We are still striving for that acceptance of MtF crossdressing. I believe it will come to pass.

[sandra-leigh]

Yes, women do crossdress. They ALL do. Because society has accepted that they are able to.

You may be "living in the present", clayfish, but you obviously aren't living around where I live. We have a fair concentration of orthodox Mennonites (even a Mennonite university), and the area has Hutterites colonies and Amish areas. We don't see many of the Amish in town, but the Hutterites show up at the farmers' market and in the shopping malls, and you need to be fairly observant to distinguish the Hutterites from the more orthodox Mennoites. The Hutterite women dress in home-made cotton dresses in very muted colours, solid colours or small-print patterns. The daughters are dressed that way as well. Not even skirts (that I recall ever seeing.) Pants are right out of the question.

It is not impossible that "all" of the women you have ever seen in person engage in what you are calling "crossdressing", but the Hutterites don't, or at least would never be seen in public that way. It is not acceptable in their society.

[Cassandra Lynn]

I wonder if you missed the point of my contribution. Yes, women do crossdress. They ALL do. Because society has accepted that they are able to.

If they are wearing clothing made for women and society has accepted it, then they are most deffinitely not crossdressing. You yourself described the history behind it, so why do you still feel it deserves mentioning as CDing? I get tired of the constant posts decrying women wearing jeans, flannel shirts (most often made for women as well) and boots as being CDing, it is time to let it go.
Society has accepted it, time for us to as well.

And yes women do often wear a shirt or item of clothing that belongs to there bf or husband, but even then does it warrant mentioning?
Most of us can prolly agree that it is unbecoming and even masculine in appearance to us, but that is another thing altogether.

Oops, sorry for jacking the thread. Sandra-Leigh answered the OP perfectly.

Cassie

[linda allen]

Thanks. :battingeyelashes:

[meri]

I would venture to say that it would be difficult for a gal to crossdress. This is because they have already earned acceptance in wearing just about anything made for men or women. I see women in Carhartt's working on road crews, women climbing utility poles with hardhats on, women in suits with ties.

The general rule should be for men and women is that you are not crossdressing unless you are wearing something specifically made for the opposite gender. For instance, men wearing bras (when they don't really need to) and women wearing men's underwear (complete with a flap).

That means that as men, we should have acceptance from others when wearing skirts, dresses, blouses, etc. when worn as a man. It is, by this definition, not crossdressing. Same for women, they wear anything they like and so long as they are not attempting to appear as a man, then she is not crossdressing.

Of course, the bottom line really is, "so what". Wear what you like, appear as a guy if you like, appear as a girl if it makes you happy. Too bad society is not enlightened enough to see it that way...

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I wonder if you missed the point of my contribution. Yes, women do crossdress. They ALL do. Because society has accepted that they are able to.

Right, we got that. But the reason the OP was re-quoted was for this part:


And I'm not talking about wearing an article of men's clothing from time to time, I'm talking about dressing to pretend they are males. Bind the breasts, hide the hair, pad the pants, etc?

Which is not answered by your "All women crossdress" comment. It does seem like most of the women who dress to pass as men are closer to the transsexual side of the gender spectrum though, as evident by Transmen who post on here.


We are still striving for that acceptance of MtF crossdressing. I believe it will come to pass.

This is of course where I differ from all but a handful on this board. I really don't think what the majority of MtF crossdressers do is the same as what women did. Women pushed to be accepted as women wearing previously traditionally male clothes, not as women dressed to pass as men.

[Lucy_Bella]

We are still striving for that acceptance of MtF crossdressing.


I believe it will come to pass.
This is of course where I differ from all but a handful on this board. I really don't think what the majority of MtF crossdressers do is the same as what women did. Women pushed to be accepted as women wearing previously traditionally male clothes, not as women dressed to pass as men.

Well said, and true.. Most GG's who wear clothing meant for men are not acting as men .. Or are they? Prior to the movement ,women where not allowed /permitted to work in traditional Male jobs..The clothing required was designed for protection in most all of these fields as well as the wear and tear on the body, like rough skin,scar's and mucle tone breaking down the delicate nature of a GG's body..So you have to wonder... Are they really not acting like men?

[Pythos]

The sexual revolution was one sided, and incomplete. Which is a travesty for all.

If a woman were to go back in time not even 50 years, and be wearing the jeans styles there are today, she would be accused of crossdressing and being unladylike like.

Please do not give me the line that women had a reason, such as hard work during the war and stuff. That simply does not apply to today's fashions that women are wearing that at one time were for men only.

But then again, JEANS were for heavy manual and dirty labor, it was a faux paux to wear them outside of the workplace for the most part, but look at them now. ALL OVER THE PLACE, sometimes even in formal events.

The reason I personally like feminine styles is, they feel nice, look nice, and are fun to wear. Jeans do little for me, don't feel nice, and for me are for heavy work. If I need to do heavy work on my car, then I put on a pair of jeans.

[Lucy_Bella]

The sexual revolution was one sided, and incomplete. Which is a travesty for all.

If a woman were to go back in time not even 50 years, and be wearing the jeans styles there are today, she would be accused of crossdressing and being unladylike like.

Please do not give me the line that women had a reason, such as hard work during the war and stuff. That simply does not apply to today's fashions that women are wearing that at one time were for men only.

But then again, JEANS were for heavy manual and dirty labor, it was a faux paux to wear them outside of the workplace for the most part, but look at them now. ALL OVER THE PLACE, sometimes even in formal events.

The reason I personally like feminine styles is, they feel nice, look nice, and are fun to wear. Jeans do little for me, don't feel nice, and for me are for heavy work. If I need to do heavy work on my car, then I put on a pair of jeans.

Well said and I agree 100% been saying that all along ..we are the missing link to Society that Soceity has shunned.. our counterparts ( GG's in Traditional male roles ) go through life daily un noticed with little or no understanding to what we go through..I will never expect a non dressing male to understand but for a GG's guess they would have to look back 50 years ago then maybe understand .. BTW ..Fot those nay saying GG's I am talking Traditional roles not what society protays them today as equal rights verses male and female..Think about it..

[sandra-leigh]

If a woman were to go back in time not even 50 years, and be wearing the jeans styles there are today, she would be accused of crossdressing and being unladylike like.

Unlady-like, perhaps, in that the low-rise styles might well have been seen as unseemingly immodest -- but they would not have been seen as crossdressing.

Women's jeans have existed since 1934, which is 76 years ago.

http://www.apparelsearch.com/names/L/Levi/Levis_History_Womens_Jeans.htm

The battle over women's pants was not fought in the 1950's, post WWII: it was largely fought in the 1910's and 1920's, but goes back even further than that, to over 120 years ago, and was substantially influenced by bicycling!

[GaleWarning]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the different posts on this thread. Clearly, there would seem to be two different interpretations of the OP's original question, "Do females crossdress?".

To me that question is synonymous with the question, "Am I a crossdresser if I only wear women's panties?".

I chose to focus on this part of the OP ... I'm talking about hetrosexual women ... because the other part is too simply answered by a quick "Yes!".

There is a deeper answer, which I have tried to address. Thanks to those who have supported me, and thanks to those who took the opposite view. It's this dichotomy which makes the thread interesting.

[Frédérique]

The battle over women's pants was not fought in the 1950's, post WWII: it was largely fought in the 1910's and 1920's, but goes back even further than that, to over 120 years ago, and was substantially influenced by bicycling!

It goes back further than that. In Shelby Foote’s “The Civil War,” there was a description of General Fremont’s female “secretary” wearing “breeches.” This was way out in Utah Territory, in 1861. I think it was simply more practical for getting around, i.e. riding horses...


Clearly, there would seem to be two different interpretations of the OP's original question, "Do females crossdress?".
To me that question is synonymous with the question, "Am I a crossdresser if I only wear women's panties?".
I chose to focus on this part of the OP ... I'm talking about hetrosexual women ... because the other part is too simply answered by a quick "Yes!".

OK – if a female wears male underpants, such as briefs or boxers, is she a crossdresser? :doh:

Of course females crossdress. There is a FtM section you may peruse, with its attendant variations therein, and it’s just like this section – some are “doing it” to the Nth degree, some are tentatively exploring, and still others are confused and alienated, with societal issues to consider...

I had a girlfriend who was, by all intents and purposes, a heterosexual FtM crossdresser. She wore men’s clothing whenever possible, retreated from female presentation, and decried her innate femininity, preferring to “do nothing” out of contempt. Is it any wonder that my own MtF crossdressing flourished in her anti-feminine shadow?
:battingeyelashes:

[Cari]

The first examples that popped into my head were:

1: Females who ran away and joined the british navy or became pirates, this would have been 200 years ago and mainly because they didnt wish to accept the female role. There are several well documented famous cases.

2: During the Revolutionary and Civil War there were also documented cases of females joining the ranks and going undetected until injured. They were discharged for having lied on their enlistment papers. (Today we turn and cough, so its much less likely to happen)

And of course there is the entire Pope Joan thing to consider. (Google it)

So I would say that women have crossdressed in the past, my guess would be that as the roles for women have expanded and openned up it is less prelevant.
Roles for men on the hand have mostly stayed the same.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Got to thinking about my earlier post, and felt i should maybe clarify. I was making a separate comment about the often mentioned 'women wearing ladies jeans and whether they are CDers' and it was not meant to include the FtM folks.
Cassie

[linda allen]

Wow, that sure got out of hand quickly.

I'm not asking about women wearing men's work clothes, or women assuming traditionally male roles in the workplace or society, I am curious if for instance, there are a significant number of females who dress up as men from time to time for the thrill of it and pretend, either in private, or in public, that they are actually males. Just like many of us do, but in reverse.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Wow, that sure got out of hand quickly.

I'm not asking about women wearing men's work clothes, or women assuming traditionally male roles in the workplace or society, I am curious if for instance, there are a significant number of females who dress up as men from time to time for the thrill of it and pretend, either in private, or in public, that they are actually males. Just like many of us do, but in reverse.

Well if that's all you want to know, it has been answered in this thread, and by the very existence of the female to male crossdressing pages on this forum.

Yes.

[audreyinalbany]

interestingly enough, this is a discussion my wife and I had just a couple of days ago. She is continually struggling to understand my crossdressing and made the observation that 'there's no female equivalent' to my crossdressing.
I think she's right. You can talk all you want about double standards and how women can wear pants and work clothes and so on, but that's missing the point. We dress as women because we want to present as women. There is a deep psychological reason for that. You can argue endlessly (and we have) about what those reasons are, but the fact is that we feel some kind of compulsion to act on these feelings. Women dress in jeans because that is acceptable in our society.

[sandra-leigh]

I am curious if for instance, there are a significant number of females who dress up as men from time to time for the thrill of it and pretend, either in private, or in public, that they are actually males.

I do not know what the numbers are, but it would help if you could define "significant" more precisely.

[Lyric]

There are vast numbers of female crossdressers-- though not necessarily by choice. We live in a society that requires females to dress as men for many employment positions: police officers, security guards, and so forth. I've had jobs in which all employees were required to wear men's shirts and pants-- no female versions available. I've yet to run across a job that requires male employees to wear skirts, hosiery or high heels (and I've looked!).

[Danni Bear]

Wow, that sure got out of hand quickly.

I'm not asking about women wearing men's work clothes, or women assuming traditionally male roles in the workplace or society, I am curious if for instance, there are a significant number of females who dress up as men from time to time for the thrill of it and pretend, either in private, or in public, that they are actually males. Just like many of us do, but in reverse.

Linda,

Yes, there are females that do crossdress for many of the same reasons we do. There are also many F2M TS that do crossdress prior to transition. They have the same type RLE we do as M2F TS except in reverse. My own husband is an example of a F2M CD that is TS and has since transitioned.

Danni

[AlannahNorth]

I think Pythos hit this one right on.

But - to answer your question, yes, some women do.

[Stephanie Anne]

One word: pants

[Lucy_Bella]

There are vast numbers of female crossdressers-- though not necessarily by choice. We live in a society that requires females to dress as men for many employment positions: police officers, security guards, and so forth. I've had jobs in which all employees were required to wear men's shirts and pants-- no female versions available. I've yet to run across a job that requires male employees to wear skirts, hosiery or high heels (and I've looked!).
Unless you where in a Scottish Band looking for a bag pipe player ..Even some acting but hey..I am reaching..

[Danni Bear]

this is ridiclous. Pants are not and never were crossdressing. Yes, there was a time that pants were not considered appropiate attire for women. And who do you suppose imposed that restriction. It wasn't the women. Pants and pantaloons have been worn by women throughout history.

Danni

[sandra-leigh]

The discussions about whether current women's clothes are "cross-dressing" or about what women can "get away with" are clearly irrelevant to the original question about whether some women sometimes dress to pretend they are men. Several people have already pointed to the location of evidence that the answer is YES; why people continue to get side-tracked on matters decidedly ruled out by the original question is difficult for me to fathom.

Here is specific evidence (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?143042-FTM-and-straight...) in response to the original question. Unless one doubts that that forum member was being honest, the only remaining question should be for Linda to clarify what she means by "significant number" in her follow-up post, as to some people a single example is "significant" and to other people 25 million people is not "significant".


This wasn't exactly difficult evidence to find, by the way: it's the 4th non-sticky post at the moment in the Transmasculine section.

[Satrana]

If you are a girl with transgender feelings then you will most likely identify as a tomboy not a CD. Being able to satisfy your feelings by wearing masculine clothing from childhood onwards most likely prevents the development of the psychological need to crossdress seen in males. As a result there are only a tiny number of women who CD to pass as a male (excluding TSs of course). So female CDs exist but are very rare. There are probably more FTM TSs than there are FTM CDs.

On the secondary point of women in general crossdressing then yes they are. Just because society accepts women dressing in male clothes, and just because women may have different reasons to do so does not mean this suddenly is not crossdressing. Everyone has their own individual reasons why they choose to wear the clothes that makes them happy. Masculine clothes are still associated with men and so women who wear them are crossdressing. To say that we should ignore this double standard is ridiculous. The whole reason why we have to live in the closet, lie to everyone, have relationships fail is precisely because of this double standard. We absolutely should complain and fight against it.

[ReineD]

To those of you who are so tenacious in believing that women who wear pants are CDing, with all due respect I only have one comment: :wall:

Where is the universal rule that states that pants are the sole domain of men? Times change, fashions change, and women who wear pants that are designed to be worn by women ARE NOT CDING! We are no longer living in the 50's!

I wear jeans most of the time and I do not crossdress.

*rant over* :)


To answer the OP - There are F2M CDs, but their ratio to F2M TSs is small compared to their M2F counterparts. Also, the ratio of overall F2M forum members is very small compared to M2Fs. I don't know why this is. M2F members are fond of saying it is because women are allowed to wear pants, but honestly, the birth females who bind and present as male have just as many issues with stigma and bias as their M2F counterparts who wish to present female.

I do wonder sometimes if the reason there is a smaller percentage of overall F2Ms with an even smaller ratio of CDs, is hormonal ... birth females in general do not live and breathe sex to the same degree as birth males, so they would not be as prone to developing sexual fetishes?

I haven't read this anywhere, it is just an idle question. I'm not saying that women don't have fetishes, some do. But with the exception of early onset M2F TSs, don't most CDs begin the CDing as a sexual release when teenagers? We all know that many, if not most CDs eventually move beyond that stage, but hasn't the brain been solidly wired for pleasure at the prospect of CDing even after the sexual urges diminish somewhat?

I'm just wondering if anyone understands anything about the long-term physiological and psychological impact of fetishes. Now before anyone comments on this, I'm not saying that all CDers are fetish, although there are quite a few here that are. But, it does start out sexually for most, doesn't it? Whereas with F2Ms, I rather think their gender identities are not rooted in sexual release.

Just wondering.

[sometimes_miss]

[QUOTE=linda allen;2344736]Do females crossdress? ]/QUOTE]
Sure. But as they're allowed to wear male garb, no one ever notices.

[Danni Bear]

I haven't read this anywhere, it is just an idle question. I'm not saying that women don't have fetishes, some do. But with the exception of early onset M2F TSs, don't most CDs begin the CDing as a sexual release when teenagers? We all know that many, if not most CDs eventually move beyond that stage, but hasn't the brain been solidly wired for pleasure at the prospect of CDing even after the sexual urges diminish somewhat?

I'm just wondering if anyone understands anything about the long-term physiological and psychological impact of fetishes. Now before anyone comments on this, I'm not saying that all CDers are fetish, although there are quite a few here that are. But, it does start out sexually for most, doesn't it? Whereas with F2Ms, I rather think their gender identities are not rooted in sexual release.

Just wondering.

Reine,

I'm not any type of expert on this but through observation over many years,I would think that yes the brain does become somewhat hardwired to the pleasure even after the sexual urges diminish. Some even in the F2M ranks gender identity issues do stem or arise due to sexual release. True, most do not as there are far fewer females that crossdress than there are males that do.

Danni

[Vickie_CDTV]

I think the question is, "Is there such a thing a female transvestism?" Virginia Prince wrote quite a bit about this back in the day and I would encourage those interested to read her writings. The Reader's Digest version that I remember is that, since women's lib, there is nothing for GGs to escape from or into by being a man. Women can not only just wear pants, but go into masculine professions, be tough when necessary, be gentle when necessary, etc. Men do not have the same freedom and that, according to her, is one reason why men crossdress.

As for fetishism, from what I have read and experienced, women are just wired differently. Men can have clothing fetishes, but it is very very rare for a GG to have them. For example, I have known GGs who liked wearing high heels, but none who were turned on just by wearing them; I have known plenty of men who are. I recently was looking through an old magazine from the 70s about more "traditionally-fetishy" clothing, and was surprised to read letters from wives writing to them expressing bewilderment as to why their husbands liked wearing and/or them wearing what they do. The thing that surprised me was, although the subject matter was not transvestism, they sounded just like letters one might see in a Tri-Ess type publication from wives struggling to figure out why their husband crossdresses.

And speaking of Tri-Ess, they explicitly allow F2M TVs to join as full members, so they believe they exist; I don't remember ever seeing one in their membership listings and such though.

[sherri]

Wow, that sure got out of hand quickly.

I'm not asking about women wearing men's work clothes, or women assuming traditionally male roles in the workplace or society, I am curious if for instance, there are a significant number of females who dress up as men from time to time for the thrill of it and pretend, either in private, or in public, that they are actually males. Just like many of us do, but in reverse.I can't figure out why you excluded lesbians from the question, cuz the minute you do include them, the answer to the OQ, and to this clarification, is a definite yes. You'll see them at every lesbian club. Only thing is, many of them would bristle at your suggestion that they are pretending. Also keep in mind that some of them are bi. As for hetero GGs, 99% of them are not trying to emulate men, but I have met a few, um, "tomboys" who are straight, but are very mannish in dress and demeanor.

[sandra-leigh]

Sure. But as they're allowed to wear male garb, no one ever notices.

:sw: Don't you ever read the transmasculine section??? :Pullhair:

[GaleWarning]

:sw: Don't you ever read the transmasculine section??? :Pullhair:

I used to, but not any more. In the past, when I have been drawn to comment on a thread in that section, I have found that my opinions have been unwelcome.

Kinda like they have been on this thread.

:sad:

[Lucy_Bella]

I used to, but not any more. In the past, when I have been drawn to comment on a thread in that section, I have found that my opinions have been unwelcome.

Kinda like they have been on this thread.

:sad:

Funny you should say that ( not ha ha funny either) ...I get the same treatment there..:(

[linda allen]

I can't figure out why you excluded lesbians from the question, cuz the minute you do include them, the answer to the OQ, and to this clarification, is a definite yes. You'll see them at every lesbian club. Only thing is, many of them would bristle at your suggestion that they are pretending. Also keep in mind that some of them are bi. As for hetero GGs, 99% of them are not trying to emulate men, but I have met a few, um, "tomboys" who are straight, but are very mannish in dress and demeanor.
I didn't include lesbians because I already know that some lesbians "cross dress" if you will.

To try once more to be clear - I am not gay or attracted to other men, but I enjoy putting on a bra and forms, a wig, traditionally female clothing, and looking in the mirror at a female. If I get a chance someday , I will go out in public as a female. Many members here seem to feel the same way I do.

I'm just wondering if there is a female counterpart and if it is common or not.

[ReineD]

I'm just wondering if there is a female counterpart and if it is common or not.

Well, Linda, there is a birth female counterpart, but it is small. I hope this answers your question.

[Tamara Croft]

There is a transmasculine section on this very board, we have hundreds of female to male members. And with that said, before the few who are talking about work clothes continue to ruin the thread and piss me off, I'm closing it. You can learn about the FTM's in that section Linda.