Facial Hair When Dressed in Public

[Julie]

This is a question posed on the Island Girls website:

Is is acceptable for a CD to appear in public dressed en femme sporting facial hair? Let's say for argument's sake we're talking a beard, goatee, mustache or other obvious facial hair, not something like sideburns which can be covered by a wig.

[Toni]

Hi Julie,

I'd sooner stick pins in my eyes than have a beard or moustache when I'm en femme and in my opinion the TVs that do this should be ashamed. They are just not doing us any favours and as long as these people are around the general public will continue to think of us as perverts. I'm sorry to go on a bit but I won't even wear trousers when I'm in womens clothes.

[Tristen Cox]

I believe in the all or nothing motto, you get what you put into something. If we're going to be taken seriously and not as a drag queen then having a beard in public is just not going work. I'm only being honest with my opinion. I do not believe this to be a fact however I have heard this somewhere before and see the problems in it.

[Amelie]

Sure, I see no problem. Everyone should be free to dress the way they want.

[Raychel]

I am with you Amelie, I only wish that everyone could go out in public dressed in the clothing that they feel best in. I know it would be a nice long dress for me. :D

[Natalie x]

I voted yes, before reading anybody's comments. I think this question sums up the freedom of expression that we are claiming for ourselves, and it's hypocritical to place our own boundaries on what is acceptable. Thanks for sharing it, Julie.

A guy, with a beard, in a dress, is a guy in a dress. He's not pretending to be a woman, and he is not taking anything away from women. Neither is he necessarily (just by wearing a dress) bringing crossdressing into disrepute. On the contrary, I think he is helping to break down the barriers created by society in defining a person by what they wear or what sex they were born.

If I want to go out dressed up, I would aim for the whole female effect, and would shave and make myself look as much as possible like the woman I believe exists inside me. But that is only my preference, and I have no right to tell the next man that he must do it my way or he is not a proper crossdresser. On reflection, the guy with a beard in a dress is being more honest than me; I am pretending to be a woman, he is being himself.

[JocelynG]

To create the true illusion I would not even consider any facial hair. In fact it sounds more like a fratenity joke than crossdressing. I don't even want to see it

[MichelleGray502]

No not at all i argree with Toni it is defintaly a big insult towards our femm side and towards gg's. when dress femm i go through great measures making sure that there is no facial hair on 'me face and also i should mention as well that i hate cd's that wear nylons with hairy legs it is just as bad and looks awful. like toni said people would think that we are pervets and it wouldn't help us on getting 'th respect that we deserve.

[GypsyKaren]

No,no,no,a thousand times no. I realize that in a perfect world you should be able to look any way you want, but we have enough problems going out and being accepted by society. If you want to look like a woman, then look like a woman.

GypsyKaren

[Jenny Beth]

I certainly would never consider going out enfemme with facial hair, even that five o'clock shadow is too much for me. However who am I to judge how someone else dresses or chooses to appear? While many of us try to emulate women there are those who feel comfortable with just the clothing and it has nothing to do with trying to pass as a woman. Different strokes for different folks!

[tifftg]

No matter how far along the crossdressing continuum I have moved. There is always someone else further along. I do this for me, who am I to judge where someone else finds themselves. I voted, I would never do it, but could be ok with it.

Tiff

[kathy gg]

Julie,
Since you did not specify if this poll was just for cd's I voted, I hope that was okay. I voted don't see a problem with it. I think there are usually reasons why a person might have some facial hair.

Could be because a spouse really feels stronlgy about it and he is doing it to please her (which is quiet sweet really).

Or he could be just a guy who likes women's clothing but has no interest in all the other things. There are certainly plenty of yahoo groups for men in skirts and other things like that. Fetishizing one particular object, but not to epress some deeper femme self.

Or going back to the 'grunge' rock period of the early 90's, I think every gruffy lead singer was trying to push buttons and by wearing a dress it was done as a big 'f-u' to social code, morality and just an anything goes mentality.

I don't see it as demeaning. I think it find it more demeaning when someone has preconcieved notions of womanhood and likes to complain that women are not femine enough or lady-like or any of that we shoudl all be like Mrs Cleaver or some outdated sexist stereotype from the 50's.

That i find much more offenisive than a guy in a dress and a beard.

hugs
kathy in canada

[ladyfydiana]

I would never do it but thats me.I am not going through spending time putting on makeup to have some facial hair show.I want to look as feminine as possible and that wont help.

[Tamara Croft]

I voted too...... I don't see a problem with it either. I hate facial hair myself...... but there is such a thing as double standards imho. To me that's like saying.... well I'll accept your a CD as long as you shave your face........ A person should be accepted for who they are, not by what they look like or dress like ;)

[ladyfydiana]

I voted too...... I don't see a problem with it either. I hate facial hair myself...... but there is such a thing as double standards imho. To me that's like saying.... well I'll accept your a CD as long as you shave your face........ A person should be accepted for who they are, not by what they look like or dress like ;)In a perfect world that would work but you and I know its not.

[Tamara Croft]

In a perfect world that would work but you and I know its not.No it isn't a perfect world, that's why we all have to stand up for what we want ;)

[Rachael Warren]

Hi, Julie, I have voted "No Way", mainly because for me this is more about emulation of the fairer form.

I don't have a problem with men wearing clothing of the opposite sex, obviously ;), but it does depend on our motivation.

As I was taught, if you are going to do something, do it right!

Rachael. :)

[Toyah]

I really cannot see the problem if thats what someone wants to do that for me never been out so not a prob

[Sigrid]

I personaly wouldn't go out without shaving first. If someone else is comfortable doing so, more power to 'em. I'm sitting here now in a skirt and sandals but without wig or makeup and unshaven for two days. I think it would be wonderful to be able to go run a few quick errands the way I'm dressed right now without first having shave and put on a ton of makeup and a wig (none of which will really go that far in making me pass, anyway).

[Tristen Cox]

I voted too...... I don't see a problem with it either. I hate facial hair myself...... but there is such a thing as double standards imho. To me that's like saying.... well I'll accept your a CD as long as you shave your face........ A person should be accepted for who they are, not by what they look like or dress like ;)
Yes they should. I wasn't sure if this was addressing us or the big world in general. "Is is acceptable for a CD to appear in public dressed en femme sporting facial hair?" It's not fully accepted that we CD yet (let alone simply be ourselves,) beard or no beard. Hard to answer this without appearing judgemental which I do not mean to sound like nor questioning your post T. But yes like anything I see the double standard coming into play very quickly.. hmm now where's Eddie :D

[Sharon]

To each their own. If your intent is to go out and create a stir, then I can't think of too many better ways to do it.
But, if your intent is to blend in and be accepted, then there's no friggin' way!

[MarinaTwelve200]

I suppose it is a person's right to wear facial hair when dressed---IF he wants to----But he has no right to complain WHEN he gets ridiculed and laughed at.---I mean, what does he expect?

Surprisingly, some people think that they can change society and how it reacts to 'freakishness" simply by flaunting one's "weirdness" and then trying to get laws passed against 'discrimination" or whatever. because they don't like the normal reaction of people.

Hey its a give and trade off situation, a package deal not exclusive of the other---you have the right to be weird, but dont have the right to complain about the reactions of others---Thats what you expected to happen anyway. :rolleyes:



A lot of "Gay Rights" stuff is like this too, in my opinion. Housing, Job and "marrage" discrimination is one thing, but, Many also want the "right" to do what they want to in public and NOT be scorned and laughed at. It ain't gonna happen. Hey, even hetro couples have a hard time if they dress "funny' and perform 'excessive displays of emotion' in public. one has a right to do what he or she wishes (so long as its legal) but scorn and ridicule is a part of the package. it will always be the price you pay.---if you cant take one dont do the other.

Do some gays want special "privlidges" (instead of rights) to force "public approval" or lack of adverse reactions to acts that would make even hetros the target of ridicule or scorn?----people need to use their common sense to govern how they behave publicly or face the consequences.---no laws or suck-up politicians,(exploiters) can ever hope to change human nature. :hiding:

(excuse my rant) :D

[Amelie]

Why is it their are people here on the forum who complain when society condems all Cds. yet now a question is asked about a bearded Cd the same Cds here condem him. Sorry, this is a hypocritacal attitude.

Sorry for what I am about to say next. This forum is really no different from the rednecks that most here complian of. I have never seen such a bunch of intolerant people as I see on this forum. You all complain about rules, yet you want to impose your own rules. Let's take an example, what if a major group of CDs decided that the only way to be a true CD was if the CD had their own breasts, not forms. What if they condemed all of you who wear forms calling you names and saying you are only mocking women by wearing forms. I know what most here would say, most here would make endless threads crying that these Cds weren't fair.

Also, no one,, no one deserves to be made fun of, no matter what that person is wearing. I would like to know something Marina, what do gays do in the street that hetero's don't do? What are gays doing that is so bad? I can tell you don't get out often or you would know better than to say this.

Also Marina what is weird? Are you weird because you look the way you do? Can we make fun of you because of the way you look? I don't think you would like this, and others wouldn't like it either. no matter how they are dressed. If we went by your thinking then some girls here who look better than others can make fun of them, because maybe to these girls the not so pretty CDs are weird looking.

I have never seen a more homophobic, intolerant bunch of people that I have seen here. I would have thought a CD forum would understand better, but I am wrong, most here are just rednecks in a dress.

[DonnaT]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure, why not? It's known under the label genderqueer, by the way.

I see it as being no different that a guy in public dressed enfemme yet wearing no makeup and no wig, regardless of the amount of facial hair. I know girls that have done it, and at least one that does it full time. Seems she gets a lot of respect from those around her. Apparently for not lying to them. Apparently, quite a few nonCDs consider wearing a wig to be lying or hiding, instead of being real.

Personally, I would like to be able to slip on a skirt and go about my business, and not worry about the wig and makeup.

Not all CDs are gender varient, and thus not all need to look like real women. They should have the the right to express themselves accordingly.

[Natalie x]

Here are some more questions for everybody who has voted in the poll so far:

Did you answer for yourself, for your aspirations as a crossdresser?
Did you vote for the option that fits your political, social or gender preconceptions?
Did you vote on behalf of the crossdressing community?
Or did you try to decide how society at large would/should react to the scenario?

All the answers given so far take one of those four viewpoints, and only one of them can be valid. We are not spokesmen/women for anyone but ourselves (individually, not collectively) and, if we let our prejudices influence how we choose, then we are applying double standards.

[Julie York]

The reason this causes so much debate is because the reason people dress is different. And as a consequence they have their own views as to what is right or wrong. People who crossdress are NOT a community. They are a huge diverse group who use women's clothing to express different ideas for their own reasons.. You are all showing your diversity.

[Sherrie]

I voted I don't see anything wrong with it but I would never do it. I dont think I should condem someone for what they wear, or what they look like. I have seen a lot of strangely dressed people, and I suppose anyone who sees one of us would think the same. If a guy wants to wear a skirt or a dress, who happens to be unshaven then so be it. However I would'nt go out that way. I prefer to look and feel as feminine and sexy as I can, although I am sure no one would mistake me for a woman, but at least I try.

[Lady Jayne]

When I dress I want to feel feminine, look feminine and be treated like a lady....but thats just me, Someone who goes out in a dress with a beard is no less valid than me they are just doing it for different reasons. It makes me sad that there are people here so willing to condem someone for doing what obviously feels right for them. after all who are we to judge anyone.

[Julie]

I read one reply on the IG website said:

I do not believe that anyone that has any serious desires to go out enfemme with male facial hair has any consideration for the transgendered community. Such a person would only reinforce the negative images that mainstream america gets bombarded with on show like Jerry Springer

There is some truth to that. Sure, it's nice to think a person should be accepted for who they are and not how they dress but we all know the world doesn't work this way at this point in time. Maybe someday though....

If something hurts the eventual acceptance of crossdressing, I'm against it. If someone shows up in public at a CD/TG/TS event, especially when media might be there, sporting a beard or other obvious facial hair, they won't get my support. I see that as potentially harmful to advancing the understanding of gender diversification. If you are that attached to your facial hair, find a less public place or stay home.

[MarinaTwelve200]

Also, no one,, no one deserves to be made fun of, no matter what that person is wearing. I would like to know something Marina, what do gays do in the street that hetero's don't do? What are gays doing that is so bad? I can tell you don't get out often or you would know better than to say this.

Also Marina what is weird? Are you weird because you look the way you do? Can we make fun of you because of the way you look? I don't think you would like this, and others wouldn't like it either. no matter how they are dressed. If we went by your thinking then some girls here who look better than others can make fun of them, because maybe to these girls the not so pretty CDs are weird looking.

I have never seen a more homophobic, intolerant bunch of people that I have seen here. I would have thought a CD forum would understand better, but I am wrong, most here are just rednecks in a dress.

Im hardly "intolerant' only stating a FACT of life. My point was that there IS nothing really wrong with cross gender behaviour or even acting like a fool in public----but, society and mainstream culture being what it is, one should EXPECT to be laughed at or scorned when one DOES things publicly that are KNOWN to evoke such reactions from "main streamers".

One needs to accept that FACT and live with it, if one insists on those forms of public behaviour or appearence. Either you put up with the negative fallout OR you refrain from those behaviours (and dont get laughed at) They are both half of the same inseperable equasion. THAT is REALITY, no matter how much we wish it wasnt so. For all of us who are a bit 'strange' and want to show it--"if you cant take the heat, stay out of the kitchen". Being CD, TS, etc. shouldnt make us stupid. Some of us CAN and do take the heat--it may be worth it to do what we wanna do. :D

Like Im saying, you dont jump into a Lion cage with a steak tied around your neck--and complain about being eaten. Either you use some personal discresion and dont wear the steak at all when you jump into the cage, or wear the steak, knowing what to expect.--- :D

[DonnaT]

Sure, it's nice to think a person should be accepted for who they are and not how they dress but we all know the world doesn't work this way at this point in time. Maybe someday though....

How will that someday ever occur if their not allowed out?

There is a TV in England that runs around in little girl dress, who has met the Queen. Her being out there brings attention to TVs and respect along with it. And yes there is ridicule, even from fellow TGs, but many that will ridicule will ridicule no matter what she is wearing. Getting some respect for TVs, as she does, is the goal. One she has achieved countless times.

England is far more advanced, politically than most places in the US with regard to the gender variant.

If the gender queer don't have the right to the opportunity to find that respect, then neither should any other TG have that opportunity.

And I do not believe that the gender queer reinforce the negatives perceived of TVs by society. Their dress is much more acceptable than fully, if not outrageously, made-up TVs out in skirts so short their ass is hanging out.

I look to a persons actions before passing judgement, before I look at how they look.

[tari]

Wonderful post. Julie did raise a good question, didn't she. tari

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I read one reply on the IG website said:

I do not believe that anyone that has any serious desires to go out enfemme with male facial hair has any consideration for the transgendered community. Such a person would only reinforce the negative images that mainstream america gets bombarded with on show like Jerry Springer


Actually I'd disagree. I'm not sure I'd consider it cross-dressing as much as conscious gender bending. But here in the SF Bay Area -- which is admittedly political -- there are "genderqueers" who are interested in arguing that gender is a social construct. Some go as far as denying gender exists, even to the extent of using invented gender-neutral pronouns (such as "sie" and "hir").

Not my cup of tea personally (strikes me as a bit twee). But while admittedly most people will think it's weird, it may prompt them to be a bit more open-minded. Plus, we look comparatively "normal" next to them. :D

[Lauren_T]

Thank you, Donna, Darla - it pleases me, the reassurance that some of us (I don't mean just CDs, either) recognize what's always been essential in the fight for equal rights. It wasn't the Uncle Toms and people emulating Stepin Fetchit or Amos 'n Andy who got civil rights for blacks... There's a vague parallel w/ the well known First Amendment argument, about how it's offensive speech that we must protect in order to be free, because inoffensive speech doesn't need protection. Likewise, the people who blatantly, brazenly violate repressive gender 'norms' are our front line; those of us who are already 'respectable' have little to fight for.

What I'm saying is, winning acceptance for the most extreme of us wins acceptance for all of us - 'Uncle Tom'ming it reaps rewards only for those who promise to 'stay in line.'

As someone who has decided that androgyny is best (for myself, of course), I still couldn't do something like wear makeup with a moustache - but I support those who do, because if they buy themselves 25% acceptance, those of us are one fourth as radical in appearance become fully acceptable.

I know some of you see exactly where I'm comin' from on this...! :thumbsup:

[Rachel Morley]

I voted "I'd never do it, but it doesn't bother me".

To be honest, to me, being "en femme" means presenting yourself (as best you can) as a female. If you're going to sport a beard then you're not doing that.

Having said that, cding can be all things to all people, and I'm certainly not going to say to someone that they can't do it. Each to their own. But if you do keep the facial hair when en femme in public, just be prepared for the consequences.

If ever I saw a guy with a beard in public, when completely en femme, I would think he was letting the side down a little, in as far as presenting a positive image of crossdressers in society.

[Mx Justina]

Why is it their are people here on the forum who complain when society condems all Cds. yet now a question is asked about a bearded Cd the same Cds here condem him. Sorry, this is a hypocritacal attitude.

Sorry for what I am about to say next. This forum is really no different from the rednecks that most here complian of. I have never seen such a bunch of intolerant people as I see on this forum. You all complain about rules, yet you want to impose your own rules. Let's take an example, what if a major group of CDs decided that the only way to be a true CD was if the CD had their own breasts, not forms. What if they condemed all of you who wear forms calling you names and saying you are only mocking women by wearing forms. I know what most here would say, most here would make endless threads crying that these Cds weren't fair.

Also, no one,, no one deserves to be made fun of, no matter what that person is wearing. I would like to know something Marina, what do gays do in the street that hetero's don't do? What are gays doing that is so bad? I can tell you don't get out often or you would know better than to say this.

Also Marina what is weird? Are you weird because you look the way you do? Can we make fun of you because of the way you look? I don't think you would like this, and others wouldn't like it either. no matter how they are dressed. If we went by your thinking then some girls here who look better than others can make fun of them, because maybe to these girls the not so pretty CDs are weird looking.

I have never seen a more homophobic, intolerant bunch of people that I have seen here. I would have thought a CD forum would understand better, but I am wrong, most here are just rednecks in a dress.

Amelie,

Although I personally wouldn't mix femme clothes with facial hair (though having easily concealable white, slow growth), your post is a reminder that right of individual expression supercedes perceived social conventions. Very righteous view.

Recently, I was listening to three (young male) Libertarian broadcasters arguing about allowing a (quite passable) TS to be included in an internet photo roster of female supporters...and in the debate, one of the Libertarians repeatedly described the TS as a freak, giving various flimsy status-quo arguments against her inclusion. That broadcaster is usually pro-individual rights (often railing against an increasingly repressive environment)... Unfortunately, not much difference between her and the proverbial bearded circus lady (or even a clown) in that broadcast incident... Just a reminder that there is no safe zone perceptually...and "open minds" are always relative.

J.

[Amelie]

Negative image and hurting crossdressing acceptance have been mentioned as reasons to go against the bearded CD.

Now, this is my opinion on what really hurts the acceptance and gives a negative image of CDs.

Now, this is my opinion:

There are others Cds who are a lot more damaging to CDs than the guy with the beard. There are CDs(a lot of them on this forum), straight Cds who, when they go out, frequent gay establishments yes even the male lesbian kind. To me this is a lot more damaging for acceptance than the guy with a beard. When people(society) see CDs coming out of a known gay club, people(society) can't tell the difference between gay, drag queen types and straight CDs, they only see men in dresses leaving the club. So these straight Cds are reinforcing the stereotype that all CDs are gay, it is these CDs who are giving more of a negative image that the guy in the beard.

I read many posts on this forum and one of the main themes is how terrible it is that society considers all CDs gay. Read the threads this is mentioned quite often on this forum. Yet there are many Cds here who reinforce this stereotype, it is they who are doing more damage, it is they who are keeping most of you in the closet. These stright CDs are strong enough to go out, then they should be strong enough to go to straight or mainly straight clubs.

What do we say to these straight CDs who frequent gay clubs? Do we laugh at them? Do we insult them? As one member said up above do they deserve what they get because of what they are doing?

To me, these straight CDs are part of the tg umbrella, they should go where ever they want without being made fun of. In fact to me. I like straight CDs that go to gay clubs, they are making my life all that much better. As long as society thinks all Cds are gay, then I don't have to explain myself to others it it is already being done by these straight CDs.

Also many here on the forum totally agree with the concept that straight CDs reinforcing this image are wrong in doing so. Read all the threads that gay is mentioned, most members are constintly crying how bad it is to be percieved as gay. So, these CDs that don't like being called gay, should focus their anger, and their words to the Cds here at the form who frequent gay clubs, for keeping the stereotype alive.

I feel that the straight CDs on this forum,,including the moderators, that frequent gay clubs are doing much more damage and giving a greater negative image than the guy with the beard, who is rarely ever seen.

Most here on the forum are at a much higher educated level than what I am, surely you must be able to see right from wrong. if you don't, then have fun in the closet, because these straight Cds are going to keep you there that much longer.

My opinion

[Amelie]

Im hardly "intolerant' only stating a FACT of life. My point was that there IS nothing really wrong with cross gender behaviour or even acting like a fool in public----but, society and mainstream culture being what it is, one should EXPECT to be laughed at or scorned when one DOES things publicly that are KNOWN to evoke such reactions from "main streamers".

One needs to accept that FACT and live with it, if one insists on those forms of public behaviour or appearence. Either you put up with the negative fallout OR you refrain from those behaviours (and dont get laughed at) They are both half of the same inseperable equasion. THAT is REALITY, no matter how much we wish it wasnt so. For all of us who are a bit 'strange' and want to show it--"if you cant take the heat, stay out of the kitchen". Being CD, TS, etc. shouldnt make us stupid. Some of us CAN and do take the heat--it may be worth it to do what we wanna do. :D

Like Im saying, you dont jump into a Lion cage with a steak tied around your neck--and complain about being eaten. Either you use some personal discresion and dont wear the steak at all when you jump into the cage, or wear the steak, knowing what to expect.--- :D


Marina,,no one and I mean no one deserves to be made fun of while out in public. How far can society go in insulting proplr who are different? Can we make fun of a handicapped person? Why not? they are different, they should be fair game. OK, one might say the handicap person can not help the way they are, they were born that way. Yet read the threads on this forum, you'll find a lot of CDs here also feel that they were born this way. They feel that they have no control on CDing, it is something inside them that they can't stop, no matter how many times they purge.
So why should a CD, any Cd be made fun of, or insulted? They should be treated fairly as any other citizen. While we can't stop idiots from laughing, but any harm done to these Cds should be met with the law, and the perpertrators arrested.

As far as saying if one can't take the heat then stay out of the kitchen is totally wrong. If you read the posts on this forum, most CDs can't stop themselves from dressing. For most, this is not a hobby, it is a life-style that they need to fullfill. CDing is not something that can easily be given up, even if there are idiots in the world.

As far as saying one should be laughed at if they are different from the mainstream, is totally ridiculous. Let's say straight conservitive type people come into my neighborhood, dressed in their conservitive clothes. Can they be laughed at because they look totally different from all the other people in the neighborhood? Maybe in your area, people are laughed at bacause they are different, but not in my area. This just makes me so glad that I don't live in the stupid areas of this country.

[Tamara Croft]

If something hurts the eventual acceptance of crossdressing, I'm against it. If someone shows up in public at a CD/TG/TS event, especially when media might be there, sporting a beard or other obvious facial hair, they won't get my support. I see that as potentially harmful to advancing the understanding of gender diversification. If you are that attached to your facial hair, find a less public place or stay home.Wow Julie.. I'm shocked by this statement. Is there now a right way to crossdress?? I mean is there now a 'circle' you must fit into before being accepted for who you really are? This is so wrong on so many scales. I agree with Amelie, you are all under one umbrella and it doesn't matter whether you totally emulate a GG or you just like wearing the clothes. It is wrong to say that a CD who still has facial hair should stay out of the lime light because it is going to be harmful to the advancement of CDs being accepted... that in itself is like I said earlier... double standards. If you can't accept a person in a dress and doning a beard, then you are no better than those that will not accept CD's in general.

If I wanted to keep my legs hairy all the time, should society then not accept me as a GG and should I stay somewhere less public?? Is it not my right as a person to keep something that naturally grows just because a certain part of the public wouldn't like it??

[Tristen Cox]

I feel that the straight CDs on this forum,,including the moderators, that frequent gay clubs are doing much more damage and giving a greater negative image than the guy with the beard, who is rarely ever seen.
My opinion
On that I have to disagree Amelie. Being gay is something that has already made a foothold toward acceptance in this world. Bearded women have not. You know I understand your views on those who act as though gay people give us a bad name. I think they're wrong. But this bearded lady thing is like asking society to accept 'seriously' some flasher who wears panties under his trench coat. Oh they'll accept him alright. But not the way we want to be. What we ourselves think or feel seems irrelevant when it comes to the rest of the world. It is their views we are trying to change or at least 'open'. We have to start somewhere. If we ask for all or nothing that will set us back even futher. And yes I do see things as you see them as well, whether or not we agree. So this is also just 'my' opinion.

And sure we, including us moderators may be in disagreement sometimes, but that's how the world is too. We're not much different really. If we all were the same there would be no labels, no need for acceptance etc etc... But here we are. Diversly discussing things that we may or may not be able to do elsewhere

[norbie]

Good Post, Dear Amelie. Basicly I do agree with you, it's not the best "advertising" for CD's to be seen in Gay Clubs.
On the other hand you must consider this: Society is not accepting CD at this time so there is realy not many other places were one can go and doesn't been looked on.
To be honest with you when I will be ready one day to go out - well a safe place would be a gay club to start with, what others think about it?
For the Vote of facial hair my answer would be then, I would never be in CD mode without the full body shaved, which I do now, even in drab.
But I do accept others right of self expression, if they feel happy to go out fem. dressed with hair on face - well who am I to tell them what to do.
Thanks for a very interesting post,
Norbie

[spaskinstyle]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8155&highlight=facial+hair

[Lauren_T]

Amelie, I won't have time until later today to address most of your points - much of which I agree with in principle, mind, but I do want to address one of them here and now, because it relies on a totally faulty premise.

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There are others Cds who are a lot more damaging to CDs than the guy with the beard. There are CDs(a lot of them on this forum), straight Cds who, when they go out, frequent gay establishments yes even the male lesbian kind. To me this is a lot more damaging for acceptance than the guy with a beard. When people(society) see CDs coming out of a known gay club, people(society) can't tell the difference between gay, drag queen types and straight CDs, they only see men in dresses leaving the club. So these straight Cds are reinforcing the stereotype that all CDs are gay, it is these CDs who are giving more of a negative image that the guy in the beard.
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Leaving aside the rest for now, your argument is not valid, because one of your fundamental premises you base it on is invalid.
The fatal flaw consists of how you have defined 'people.' Twice, (and therefore we must assume it's not a typo or other error) you equate 'people' with 'society.' False. Not the same thing at all. What you are ignoring is number.

By way of an illustrative counterexample, let me ask this: you've seen a lot of gay bars; most of us have, right?
So tell me, do the local TV stations have 24-hour cameras set up across the street, televising the comings and goings to hundreds of thousands or millions of people, i.e. 'society'? Are there bleachers set up in front of any gay bars you're aware of, filled with people sitting, watching who goes in and out? Of course not. Those ideas, of course, are ludicrous.

But they illustrate the gaping hole in your argument. Almost no one at all sees anyone at all enter or leave a gay bar! And, of the tiny, utterly insignificant number of people (who are in relation to 'society' what a grain of sand is in relation to Waikiki Beach...) who do happen to see a CD coming or going from such a place - why, most of them are gay!

So, the net content of your argument is this: A teeny-tiny handful of (usually gay) people who happen to be in eyeshot, at that exact, uncommon moment that a CD happens to be entering or leaving a gay bar - what you've said is that those couple of people somehow determine the attitude of all of Western society toward CDs!

As we logicians say, I don't think so... :eek: :p

[Ariel]

Well, I read a few posts, and pondered the question, then voted. It seems to me that if someone wants to get dressed up and go out, they should go the "whole 9 yards", and do it right. However, that is me. I don't want people deciding what I can/can't do, so I don't think that it is up to me to do that to other people. Fair is fair, treat others the way that you want to be treated.

Hugs
Ariel

[TammyB]

Well I woudnt go out en-femme with a beard, but if anyone wants to it really doesnt bother me. Somthing about glass houses and stones comes to mind :)

[Amelie]

Amelie, I won't have time until later today to address most of your points - much of which I agree with in principle, mind, but I do want to address one of them here and now, because it relies on a totally faulty premise.

Leaving aside the rest for now, your argument is not valid, because one of your fundamental premises you base it on is invalid.
The fatal flaw consists of how you have defined 'people.' Twice, (and therefore we must assume it's not a typo or other error) you equate 'people' with 'society.' False. Not the same thing at all. What you are ignoring is number.

By way of an illustrative counterexample, let me ask this: you've seen a lot of gay bars; most of us have, right?
So tell me, do the local TV stations have 24-hour cameras set up across the street, televising the comings and goings to hundreds of thousands or millions of people, i.e. 'society'? Are there bleachers set up in front of any gay bars you're aware of, filled with people sitting, watching who goes in and out? Of course not. Those ideas, of course, are ludicrous.

But they illustrate the gaping hole in your argument. Almost no one at all sees anyone at all enter or leave a gay bar! And, of the tiny, utterly insignificant number of people (who are in relation to 'society' what a grain of sand is in relation to Waikiki Beach...) who do happen to see a CD coming or going from such a place - why, most of them are gay!

So, the net content of your argument is this: A teeny-tiny handful of (usually gay) people who happen to be in eyeshot, at that exact, uncommon moment that a CD happens to be entering or leaving a gay bar - what you've said is that those couple of people somehow determine the attitude of all of Western society toward CDs!

As we logicians say, I don't think so... :eek: :p

First of all. how do you know for sure that it is only a few people who see Cds coming out of a gay bar or club? Second there are many gay clubs and bars so the numbers could be added together. Third, there is word of mouth, when one person sees a CD coming out of a gay club they in turn tell others.
Then there are gay people themselves, they see these Cds in the gay clubs they in turn tell others that Cds frequent their clubs they might even tell straight people this, then others can assume that CDs are gay.

I can tell that you have never been to a big city. A lot of gay clubs are in very busy tourist areas. You will even see CDs hanging outside of these clubs, talking. Many people can see this and then when word of mouth goes around, many more will know.

Look at the Pride day parade, there were many straight Cds at these events, read back on some threads here and you will see some members here at these events. And at these events are cameras.

My point is, if straight CDs don't want to be percieved as gay, why ruin this by going to a gay club. Go to a straight club. Straight CDs will do more good for their cause if they go to straight clubs. So, stop being cowards and go to a straight club or event and clean up your image to what standard you want this to be.
Quit hiding in gay clubs, this is all that you are doing, that is if you do go out.

Also my other point was if a CD can condem another CD for their actions, then those condeming CDs can be condemed for their actions. Like someone said above about throwing stones in a glass house.

[Natasha Anne]

Stubble because you slept over at someones place and really don't have any drab to wear seems OK.

If you're a "bearded crossdresser" I guess that's OK, but I would think it means you like the clothes more, or see no distincition between male and female clothing that makes sense so you just wear what is comfortable and looks nice without wanting to pretend to be female.

I knew a "bearded crossdresser" once (her term for herself, not mine). She would not shave because her wife, "would not let her". It seemed an odd thing at the time because she would go out in public like that, but it did not bug me, even if I was in drab and with her. I didn't buy the, "wife would not let her," story, but figured we all go through some confusion of some form. I cannot imagine what is like to have a beard for years and then shave it.

I've never wanted a beard. Growing facial hair in my teens saddened me greatly, and I shaved often. Even body hair bugged me, I just never wanted it. I used to get teased for having very little leg hair in my early teens compared to other boys, but I was happy about it, and that saddened me when it grew too. Even as a guy now I'm not that hirsuite, but I'm glad about that now, even though in comparison to a GG there is a lot more.

If a crossdresser is supposed to be a part-time female, then I guess facial hair doesn't really go with that, but considering who I am and that I've accepted myself, this sort of diversity does not bug me in the slightest. I just would never do it.

[Deborah_UK]

Go to a straight club. Straight CDs will do more good for their cause if they go to straight clubs. So, stop being cowards and go to a straight club or event and clean up your image to what standard you want this to be.
Quit hiding in gay clubs, this is all that you are doing, that is if you do go out.



Go to a straight club and get your head kicked in - yeah good idea!

I agree with a lot you've said on this thread Amelie, but unless a CD is extremely passable and feminine then here in the UK the CD out to prove your point would more than likely end up in casualty.

I am TS, and should I ever get round to transitioning there will be times I'll have to sport facial hair pending electrolysis/laser, but then this thread asked about CDs not TSs.

[Jeanette H]

It would never work for me, but we're not all the same. I think it's interesting that so far no bearded TVs have posted on this thread. There is at least one bearded tranny over at Rose's, and judging by her pictures she dresses well and could be very convincing if she chose to shave. She just doesn't seem to feel the need.

[Stephanie]

When I'm enfemme, I don't want to have any trace of facial hair on me. I don't care if somebody wants to do it differently but when I'm fully enfemme, especially in public, I want to be able to "pass" as much as possible. I don't really care for my facial hair much anyway and prefer to be clean-shaven all the time. In fact, if I could permanently remove it without going through a painful and/or expensive process I probably would.

[MarinaTwelve200]

As far as saying one should be laughed at if they are different from the mainstream, is totally ridiculous. Let's say straight conservitive type people come into my neighborhood, dressed in their conservitive clothes. Can they be laughed at because they look totally different from all the other people in the neighborhood? Maybe in your area, people are laughed at bacause they are different, but not in my area. This just makes me so glad that I don't live in the stupid areas of this country.

As far as saying if one can't take the heat then stay out of the kitchen is totally wrong. If you read the posts on this forum, most CDs can't stop themselves from dressing. For most, this is not a hobby, it is a life-style that they need to fullfill. CDing is not something that can easily be given up, even if there are idiots in the world.

You need to read my posts MORE CLOSELY. I NEVER said that someone SHOULD be laughed at. I SAID that if a person deliberately dressed like a clown or freak in a public venue, they WILL be laughed at. Im not saying that it is "right" its just a fact of life.

I also NEVER implied that a person Should NOT be "different" IFthey wanted to be---only that they should KNOW to expect ridicule as part of the price they pay for looking "odd". I am refering to people who DO KNOW BETTER and who CAN help themselves.----like the guy who dresses as a "bearded lady" in public---or even a non-CD thing like a Circus Clown. ( Are we to tell society not to laugh at a clown?) I DO NOT refer to people who are mentally retarded or physically handicapped who CANT help what they look like.---Sure, we shouldnt ridicule them.

Yes there are CD's who cant help themself---but I DO give them credit for knowing the difference between looking like a more or less "normal" woman and a sideshow freak---i mean, people PAY to see such things at carnivals. The Bearded CD has a choice whether to wear the beard or not, not like he has one arm or something.---And i support his right to WEAR his beard and CD if he wants to---Only he MUST know if he makes that choice, he WILL be laughed at.--if he can take it---more power to him, but I dont think he has any grounds to complain IF he IS laughed at---what does he expect?

Getting back to handicapped people that cant help their appearence. Its not generally something the public laughs at, like a clown for example. But what if he went around actually waving his stumps in peoples noses and saying --"hey look at me . Im different, Im handicapped"? Handicapped or not, the guy would be considered very 'rude", and treated accordinly.----So as it is with SOME deliberate "freaks" (who CAN help themselves) SOMETIMES they are percievied as not only being just freaks but FLAUNTING it.----which is yet another reason they might earn scorn or ridicule---as being deliberate provocateers---They KNOW how the public will behave to them also.

Of course, US CDs HERE are more tolerant than the general public. WE are NOT the general public, but we know what disturbs them and how they react to certian things.----We DO have choices and rights but Id like to think, that given our knowledge of general society we exercise those rights with discression. I know what wil happen if I jump off a roof, but I still have the right to do so--and if i can take the shock of landing on the ground, well and good, thats the price i pay for indulging in my jumping habbit--I expect to pay that price, and it may be worth it for me. But if I cant take the impact or dont want to experience it--I also have the choice NOT to jump.---one can't change human nature any more than one can change the law of gravity--so we shouldnt bother.---only use our own judgement.

[gender_blender]

Sometimes I don't feel like covering what little facial hair I do have. I believe that it depends on the individual and how they identify. If it's coming from a person who is attempting to make a mockery of transgenderism and doesn't identify as anything other than what they presenting, then they should be punished. If this is coming from an individual who could clearly pass, but chooses to blend characteristics from both genders, then I say go for it.

I do it occasionally to to instill a questioning of society's gender expectation in the minds of those present. Think for yourself and question the authority of gender and society. Attempt to blend in with whatever gender you like, but chances are, in the end you will be read as male somehow. Might as well do whatever you like and have fun, within reason of course. Mix it up.


Charlie