Legal status of titles?

[sandra-leigh]

Not actually TS specific, but more likely to come up for them:

Does anyone know if there is any legal status to the titles "Mrs.", "Miss", or (especially) "Ms" ? E.g., if I fill out a form, whether for a mailing list or a computer account or a utility account, am I (still a legal male) permitted to use "Ms" without legal problem?

I know there are legal statuses attached to "Dr." and "MD" and "PhD" and "Herr Professor" and military titles, but since "Ms" especially was an artificially invented titled, is there any law that says I can't use it? e.g., could I get it put on my bank client card?

[Stephanie Anne]

Mrs. is generally a greeting for a married woman. Miss and Ms. are synonymous although it is common practice to use Miss for younger girls (under 18) and Ms for women. Ms and Miss are the shortened form of Mistress, which is the feminine counterpart of Mister.

Professionally and formally, Ms is the default for all women unless specified.

So in the US, we utilize Ms as the formal, hence legal title. In the UK, miss was the standard unless married (Mrs) but it is now becoming accepted to use Ms.

Of note (UK):


Ms is used if the woman in question is divorced and reverts to her maiden name. Additionally, she may have changed her name by deed poll and use Ms because it is neither a married nor a maiden name.

And if you are interested in the use of Mister versus Master (master being used for young boys)...

Linkage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr.)

[sandra-leigh]

Thanks, I am aware of how the titles are used generally: the question is whether there is any legal backing to that customary usage ? If I want to call myself "Ms <male name>" is there anything blocking that? They are often referred to as "courtesy titles".

I know I can't call myself "Dr. ______" because I do not have a PhD or MD: I could get myself in legal trouble for that. I have not, though, yet found any restriction on using any of the titles that are not reserved by profession or rank.

[Jenna Lynne]

Are you posting from the U.S., Canada, the UK, Australia, or New Zealand? I don't know the answer to your question, but I suspect the legal situation may not be uniform from country to country.

[Stephanie Anne]

While I can think of nothing that would limit the legal reason, it ma not be practical.

As for title, as it is only a courtesy, they have no reason to deny you what you wish to be called. Title is not an official station.

I assume you still have a male oriented name and gender marker? As such it would be awkward if anything to call you say "Ms Richard Manstrom" but not illegal.

[Debglam]

Hi Sandra,

I am fairly certain that the answer is no, particularly for the issues you mentioned ("mailing list or a computer account or a utility account"). If there was some significance to the person filling out the form's gender (insurance application maybe) then that would be different. US, UK, and Canadian law should be similar.

Debby

[sandra-leigh]

Jenna, I'm in Canada.

I did some googling, and I have not been able to find anything relevant other than UK titles for peerage and courtesy peerage.


A business like insurance the depends upon gender ought to ask gender outright; if they assume a gender based upon title without indicating they intend to use title for that purpose, then tain't my fault, it seems to me. What would they do about "Dr. Kelly Frobnitz" or other title that is not gender-specific?

[Stephenie S]

There is NO legal restrictions with ANY of the titles you mentioned. Even Doctor, "Herr Professor" (where did you come up with THAT one?), and military titles can be used by anyone. The legal problems arise when you do this to defraud. In other words, you can call yourself Doctor Jones, but you had better not try to practice medicine.

Adding the title Ms before your name is perfectly legal, but seems a bit silly, and kind of pretentious. I, for instance, never refer to myself as Ms. anything, although other people occasionally will address me as such. Sometimes I will get a catalog addressed to Ms, but I never sign my name as Ms Stephenie *******. If I am given a choice on some form where it says Mr, Mrs, or Ms, I will check Ms or leave it blank.

S

[sandra-leigh]

There is NO legal restrictions with ANY of the titles you mentioned. Even Doctor, "Herr Professor" (where did you come up with THAT one?), and military titles can be used by anyone. The legal problems arise when you do this to defraud.

I believe there are a few titles that are reserved in Canada, such as HRM (His/Her Royal Majesty), and ones having to do with the Order of Canada.

"Herr Professor" -- my former landlord used to discuss the difficulties in getting accepted in Germany as a female professor with a PhD. Something about how she used to use Frau Professor and would get put down for that for "overreaching" her status, and then she would reveal that she was Frau Doktor Professor and as such outranked the people who were putting her down.


Adding the title Ms before your name is perfectly legal, but seems a bit silly, and kind of pretentious.

The question arose out of discussion of name changes. If you are pre-op or non-op and not legally entitled to use the F gender marker, but wish to signal female gender or wish to avoid signalling male gender, then knowing whether there is legal consequence to using Ms. becomes important.

[Karen564]

You can legally call yourself anything you want to, as long as it's not for a fraudulent purpose....

Can you really imagine getting a summons or arrested just for calling yourself Ms. ?

I cant..

[Danni Bear]

sandra,

I could not find any legal issues to prevent you calling yourself ms. the only thing i could find that even possibly would stop you is that it is poor etiquitte to use it preceding a male first name.

Danni

[Rianna Humble]

I can only speak about UK law, but am aware that many Canadian laws are similar to their UK equivalent.

In the UK, people are allowed to adopt any "general title" (e.g. Mr / Mrs / Miss / Ms) that they like.

Most UK deed poll services (the most common way to change your name in the UK) will require proof of entitlement for any professional title or title of nobility.

Although the services that prepare the deeds may baulk at the idea of Ms Robert Hull it is nonetheless legally permissible. Personally, I would not recommend changing general title but not name as it is costly in both time (informing everyone) and money.

There is a principle in common law within the UK that a person may simply adopt any name that they wish, however for all legal purposes because of recent anti-fraud and anti-terrorist measures they would have to continue with their original name.

So I could have just started calling myself Ms Rianna Joyce Humble without a legal change of name, but I would still have been known to the banks, tax authorities and so on as Mr Robert John Hull.

A good example of this is Sir Maurice Micklethwaite who is more commonly referred to as Sir Michael Caine even though the title was conferred by the sovereign in his legal name.

[Stephenie S]

Sandra,

I thought I said this already. I, and others, have told you. There is NO legal reason why you can't use any title you want. Call yourself HRM if you want. No one will pay you any attention though. LOL

Really, girl. Use Mr, Mrs, Ms, anyway you want. I promise the local constabulary and the Mounties will leave you alone. But don't get caught speeding in Saskatchewan.

S

[Gina X]

Legally all of the titles are honary bestowed upon you by others so although you can make it known to others how you would like to be called you actually have no right to call yourself by them. Married women should be known by their own name first i.e Mary Jones when married she should be known as Mary Jones Mrs Fred Bloggs although in practice isn't used today, but if you are a man your name would be just Fred Bloggs and that is how you should introduce yourself to others but somebody else introducing you would call you Mr Fred Bloggs or Mary Jones Mrs Fred Bloggs to another person, very complicated but that is how it should work............

Love Gina x

[Jorja]

Legally all of the titles are honary bestowed upon you by others so although you can make it known to others how you would like to be called you actually have no right to call yourself by them. Married women should be known by their own name first i.e Mary Jones when married she should be known as Mary Jones Mrs Fred Bloggs although in practice isn't used today, but if you are a man your name would be just Fred Bloggs and that is how you should introduce yourself to others but somebody else introducing you would call you Mr Fred Bloggs or Mary Jones Mrs Fred Bloggs to another person, very complicated but that is how it should work............

Love Gina x

OUCH!!!! Now my head hurts!

[Gina X]

OUCH!!!! Now my head hurts!

That'll teach you to read my Posts !!! LOL

[sandra-leigh]

Married names are different -- there are laws about those, and those laws vary with jurisdiction. For example in some places, the marriage certificate is enough to change from Mary Jane to Mrs. Fred Bloggs, but in Quebec in the interests of preserving traditional culture, a complete formal court name change application is required to make that change -- and in Quebec the judge might well pressure a woman about why she isn't keeping her maiden name.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Well you could always be like Idi Amin Dada and call yourself "His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular" or shortened "The Devil Himself" (not you but Dada)! His example is the extreme but call yourself anything you want.

[Jorja]

I am kind of partial to her-awesomeness

[KingHenryVIII]

So it is allowed yes? I think you have come to that solution, my question is now, is it also legal to put "male" when filling out forms and such, even if you are legally female. Or other way around. ?

[Rianna Humble]

is it also legal to put "male" when filling out forms and such, even if you are legally female. Or other way around. ?

I always put the gender I am living - which for me means female - except when I filled out a form for the Gender Identity Clinic where they wanted the birth gender. I do not hold a GRC, but as far as I am concerned I am a woman - and the tax people seem to agree.

[Laura_Stephens]

In the U.S., I do believe it varies.

I know, for example, in the recent U.S. Census, it was permissible to answer the "gender question" with anything that you wanted per the Census takers guidelines.

At the same time, if you bid on a government contract and identified yourself as female and the contract had gender preferences, those awarding the contract might look upon your bid as being fraudulent.

Disclaimer -- I have zero background in legal issues.