Can you smell the rosemary in the gravy?

[Frédérique]

Let me tell you, my fine MtF friends, if you CAN’T smell the rosemary in the gravy, you can’t be much of a crossdresser, can you? Do your senses work? Can you smell, hear, taste, see, and above all FEEL the subtle differences that separate those who do from those who don’t? More specifically, do you stop to smell the roses, or the gravy, as an ongoing part of your heightened awareness, a thing that (hopefully) led to your crossdressing in the first place? I dearly hope so...

I guarantee that if you’re in the company of males, and you get your plate of manly meat-and-potatoes glop at the local diner (you know, on the way to your latest bonding ritual), you may not wish to reveal your innate aestheticism by commenting on the herbal aroma of the gravy. No, you can’t do that, because you may draw undue attention to yourself, and show everyone that you really aren’t one of the “boys.” Come to think of it, since you’re a MtF crossdresser, you’re one of the “girls” now – why are you still hanging out with other males? I suppose “hanging out” says it all, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves...

Years ago, I went to the opera with my sister, the second or third of many such occasions. This was back in Boston (the Metropolitan Opera was in town), and we had tickets for opening night, for Rossini’s The Siege of Corinth. For this special occasion, my sister made her own dress out of Marimekko fabric (a striking blue and yellow pattern), and she constructed a tie for me that matched her beautiful creation. I’m sorry to say that I was in drab, but I assure you I was dressed to the nines within those overly constrictive male parameters...

It was a beautiful opera, as operas tend to be, full of sights and sounds that make overly-sensitive males like me cry, causing innate feelings to rise to the surface among other gender-integrated pilgrims. Oh, the bliss! Of course, the next day, when I was among my fellow males, they all thought I was on another plane, and it wasn’t above them. I mean, the very idea! Going to an opera, dressed specifically for the occasion, enjoying vichyssoise with the rich patrons beforehand, and then being subjected to impassioned music and singing that is...European...and, worst of all, WANTING to go in the first place. I was derided for weeks about this. Translation: we’re MEN, so who, or what, do you think you are?

The male world is divided into two polarized camps – those who can smell the rosemary in the gravy, and those who can’t, or don’t care, so long as it’s gravy. The latter can’t understand the former, and I don’t know why. Are our male senses supposed to be deadened, and if so, for what reason? Is it to preclude having any feelings for beauty, or other people, or other ways of looking at things? Is it all too complicated, so sensibilities are pruned away for the purported good of one’s accepted take on things? What is so threatened, anyway? I get the feeling (there’s that word again) that it’s considered bad for males to dwell, or even contemplate, the realm of the senses. There are better things to do, and we don’t need any stinkin’ sensitivity, compadre...

If I blurt out “I can smell the rosemary in the gravy,” male eyes will roll, and I will be targeted with suspicion. I can think of many an occasion where a gesture, or a previously unknown word, has sent my male companion reeling backwards, afraid of what they are standing next to. Honestly, what is there to be afraid of? I know I can imitate typical male behavior to put my accusers at ease, but, the older I get, the less I wish to engage in this obsolete gamesmanship. I now declare my innate talent for sensuality, knowing that it’s all part of the same sensibilities that find their full expression in MtF crossdressing. I enjoy my feelings, and I want to exhibit this fact to all comers, regardless of any senseless male toes I may step on. More gravy, darling?

BTW, I know this is a strange topic, but I heard this comment on a TV show the other night (spoken by a male, at a good diner), and I thought it was a highly evocative thing to say. My thanks to the anonymous (and appreciative) gentleman who uttered it...
:)

[cdwithplay36b]

Actually, I think the ability and the desire to maximize one's sensations and enjoyments of one's surroundings is something that can transcend a mere level of gender identity. I don't find social constraints on myself or my male friends when interacting with our wives about our relative pursuits of happiness. Quite often these pursuits are differ then our wives and quite often they overlap. Either way, the courage to be free enough to revel in our own comforts is what lead to our prevailing level of happiness.

[juno]

I'm sorry, but I can't smell the Rosemary because I have a very bad sense of smell (hyposmia). I have trouble smelling sour milk! This isn't going to get my CD membership revoked, is it??

[Starla]

When I saw the title of the post, I thought we were all going to be invited to dinner. :strugglin

[JenniferB]

Let me tell you, my fine MtF friends, if you CAN’T smell the rosemary in the gravy, you can’t be much of a crossdresser, can you?
Sayyyy Whattttt??? Geez, this is out there...

[sandra-leigh]

People would be fairly surprised if I had meat-and-potatoes with gravy, as I've been a vegetarian for just shy of 20 years.

The people at work are accustomed to me showing up with obscure foods (especially juice). They kid me a bit about it, but they know that "being normal" is what would be strange for me :D

[suchacutie]

Sensitive...empathetic.

My wife asked me how much Tina affected one particular aspect of my professional life, and without allowing me to answer she continue, "well, certainly her empathy is a big part of it".

Being sensitive and empathetic and even emotional is often looked down upon by the "male" clique. It might have been an issue when I was younger, but now I just look at men like this as if they had 3 heads!

How can one have a feminine self and not have that self be a part of everything that happens in life.

tina

[Persephone]

Oh, sigh, Frédérique, hasn't your sister told you that despite their shortcomings*, their lack of ability at smelling the rosemary and appreciating opera, their cute little ways of belching and scratching their "man parts," that you are supposed to love, honor, and obey the little darlings? That your heart is supposed to go pitter-patter over them?

Hugs,
Persephone

*Shortcomings - honestly, it was not intended as a pun on their "slam, bam," er, nevermind.

[Sophie86]

Let me tell you, my fine MtF friends, if you CAN’T smell the rosemary in the gravy, you can’t be much of a crossdresser, can you? Do your senses work? Can you smell, hear, taste, see, and above all FEEL the subtle differences that separate those who do from those who don’t? More specifically, do you stop to smell the roses, or the gravy, as an ongoing part of your heightened awareness, a thing that (hopefully) led to your crossdressing in the first place? I dearly hope so...

So enjoying our senses--being sensual people, I guess you would say--is what makes us crossdressers. Things like enjoying the taste of food--the savory goodness of a perfectly cooked sirloin or the extra flavorfulness of veggies straight from the garden; being inspired by sights--like the sun coming up over the trees in the morning or the brilliance of the stars on a clear night; appreciating sounds--especially emotionally evocative ones like the lonesome wail of a freight train off in the distance or the baying of the hounds in the woods on a cold morning; cultivating those enjoyments is what turned me into a crossdresser...

My poor father. He had no idea what he was doing. :heehee:

Or did he...? :eek:

[Kathi Lake]

I think I hear you, Freddy. It's not the fact that we have heightened senses, emotions, feelings, etc.. It's the fact that we actually admit to these things out loud - uncaring as to who might hear and what they might think, and that we don't trivialize them. True. I'm sure it's not necessarily a crossdresser trait, but it is a trait of someone comfortable enough in their feelings and their identity that they don't care what others may think. Correct?

Kathi

[ReineD]

Honestly, I think it's a matter of education and perhaps availability of material resources (money), more than gender. There are men as well as women who enjoy fine dining, fine wine, the opera, the ballet, art exhibitions, etc. When I go to such venues, I don't see a predominately female audience. :)

There are also men AND women who would never go to the opera and whose noses would turn at the prospect of eating a bouillabaise. Do you really think the ability to appreciate anything other than popular culture is gendered?

[Rogina B]

I could be wrong,but I think Freddie is alluding to being comfortable in your own skin..We are all different and those of us with a "wider gender scope" should be comfortable enough to express it.Like wearing pink,or fuscia,or ...

[sissystephanie]

I'm sorry, but I can't smell the Rosemary because I have a very bad sense of smell (hyposmia). I have trouble smelling sour milk! This isn't going to get my CD membership revoked, is it??

I am not sure I have what Juno said she has, but my sense of smell is also very bad. But I do know who and what I am. I am ME, a person unlike anybody else!! There are many similar to me, but nobody is just like me!! That is the way I like it!! If you want to revoke my CD membership, go ahead. I don't have my card anyway, and I will still crossdress if I feel like it!

[busker]

By their very nature, I think that there are many endeavors that require heightened emotions: the arts, music, writing, medicine--and many more occupations, and many pastimes. I think the problem with men is that it is not feeling the emotions, it is owning up to them. Surely even guys to go to football games get their knickers wet when their team wins, but they probably don't express it in quite the same way as we might "smelling the rosemary in the gravy".
Even Le Carre in the Spy Who Came in From the Cold, is sympathetic to his doomed creature. When he is shot, we feel for him and it is through the writing that we do this. He was used, and by extension, so are we, the reader.
There are many works by JS Back that can move me to quiet tears and he too was moved by his religion to write such wonderful works.
I can't seem to correlate the expression of our senses just with being a cd, but I think the lack of expression is a part of our male socialization that we still haven't gotten beyond.
I remember in the 70's or so, when Johnny Carson et alia, started hugging guys and guys were wearing jewelry--there was certainly a lot of phoney "commeraderie" and it could have been alright had it turned into something real, but it didn't stick very well. We've gone back to knuckle-dragging and mouth breathing.
I consider myself lucky to be a "feeling" person, with much of my life spent in and out of music performance, photography, and other areas where sensitivity to creating is part of the endeavor. Was I drawn to those things because I was a "feeling" person or did they turn me into one?
Those who don't or can't feel it are the ones we should have l sympathy for because they won't ever know what we have.We're kind of an exclusive club.

[bridgetta]

Neat post

[Frédérique]

You must admit it’s a catchy title!:heehee:


Honestly, I think it's a matter of education and perhaps availability of material resources (money), more than gender. There are men as well as women who enjoy fine dining, fine wine, the opera, the ballet, art exhibitions, etc. When I go to such venues, I don't see a predominately female audience.

I disagree with that. I don’t have a certain degree of higher education, nor do I have the material resources you talk about, and the cultural world is largely kept afloat by the effort of females. I’m talking about behind the scenes, not the audience – without feminine appreciation and support for culture (in all its myriad forms), things would be in a sorry state indeed. If you are a sensitive person, male or female, it’s only logical that you would be drawn towards cultural activities, design, care in the preparation of food, and so forth. In OUR case, as MtF crossdressers, I’m wondering about what others think of this connection I’m trying to make. Going in, I know many will disagree, but don’t you at least require a certain appreciation for tactile sensibilities if you’re a male dressing as a female? This inclination or “aptitude” may be deeper than one thinks, extending into other areas of sensory awareness without realizing it...

I think a lot of males don’t care, or cannot bring themselves to care, about something that may require feelings to fully enjoy. The opera is a good example, kind of a “line in the sand” for most men (as I alluded to in the OP). Overwhelming to some (like me), highly avoidable to others (like them), and there is very little middle ground. BTW, the best (gender-unspecific) opera fans sit way up high in the cheap seats, and they are way more knowledgeable than the people who go merely to be seen. Also, I wasn’t referring to fine dining at all – I meant the acknowledgement of the presence of an aromatic herb, a subtle difference in an otherwise unspectacular roux. I insist that this ability to discern subtleties is a feminine trait, latent or pronounced in all people, male or female, or a combination thereof. As such, I know that most masculine types would be uncomfortable with an expression of feminine characteristics in their midst, but it all depends on what their particular level of sensory awareness may be. My artist friends wouldn’t raise an eyebrow, for example, and I would expect MtF crossdressers to do likewise in most cases...


I could be wrong,but I think Freddie is alluding to being comfortable in your own skin...

Exactly. It’s the freedom of choice to be openly sensitive among less sensitive types of people...:)


I consider myself lucky to be a "feeling" person, with much of my life spent in and out of music performance, photography, and other areas where sensitivity to creating is part of the endeavor. Was I drawn to those things because I was a "feeling" person or did they turn me into one?
Those who don't or can't feel it are the ones we should have l sympathy for because they won't ever know what we have.We're kind of an exclusive club.

I think we are an exclusive club, and there is a certain connection between sensibilities and crossdressing in some, but not all, of us. Since I’m a visual artist, I deal with sensuality all the time – it’s part of my innate nature, and it finds an expression in what I create. This came along way before I even thought of crossdressing, but I consider the urge to dress to be an offshoot of the same “tree” of sensibility, a different way to express something I hold near and dear...
:battingeyelashes:

[Ruth]

I think that your take on such matters as subtle flavours in food and 'higher' arts such as opera may depend a little on where you live. I'm not trying to be a geographical snob, I just have a sense that the socially and culturally acceptable norm for masculine behaviour and interests can vary from place to place (and is also subject to fashion).
An example would be that in the UK there has been a huge explosion interest in cookery and dining in the television and printed media. There are very many (too many?) celebrity chefs out there with their TV series and bestselling books. Some of them look fairly tough and macho (ever hear of Gordon Ramsey?). Every man feels comfortable holding forth on the virtues of intricate dishes - certainly rosemary in gravy would be no big deal. No-one's going to check for a panty line on a guy who is enthusing about herbs.
Maybe in Kansas it's different.

[donnalee]

Not only can I taste it, I'm the one who put it there, gathered from a bush that my SO grew by thrusting a branch into the ground.

[JenniferB]

If you are a sensitive person, male or female, it’s only logical that you would be drawn towards cultural activities, design, care in the preparation of food, and so forth.
When you start expecting any group of people (CD's or not) to act or think a certain way, that's when you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

[Emily Ann Brown]

My girlfriend says I have the eye of a women for fashion and color, the sensory awareness of a woman of class, and the heart of a mother.

A nuff said! let's go back to work.

Em

[Sarah Doepner]

I agree that we benefit when we open up and explore our sensual nature, but it isn't limited to our little sub-set of the male. I have dear old friends who are sensitive to their world, openly and honestly appreciating excellent and subtle tastes in their food, beautiful music, spectacular vistas and the comfort of friendship. But to the best of my knowledge crossdressing is not part of their world, but it may be part of why I have them as friends in the first place. On the other hand I've been with crossdressers who, while dressed to the nines, nearly bellowed in animated argument over the better engine to put in a restored car and were happy with their choice of a cheeseburger rather than a more delicate or demanding/rewarding meal off the same menu. This latter group would never be part of my world except when we happen to be together to share an activity based only on crossdressing.

I'm not sure we are the exclusive holders of sensitivity and cultural appreciation, but given what I've seen it helps me to better appreciate my experience as I cultivate my femininity. It seems that it also may help me in relationships outside crossdressing. I would hope so.

[sandra-leigh]

Opera is not the best example, as it is considered to be an elite passtime as opposed to a "feminine" passtime. People do not see any contradiction in a senior professional having an avid appreciation of classical music. That and the fact that some of the female opera singers these days are considered "babes".

Some of the people I work with get seasons tickets to the opera, which is one of the reasons I do not go myself. (1) I don't want to intrude on "their" passion; and (2) I'd want to Dress, but wouldn't be able to do that unless I was certain I wasn't attending on the same night as some of them that have disrespected me in the past.

[NicoleScott]

I'm not clear on this. What part of Rosemary fell into the gravy?

[Starla]

I'm not clear on this. What part of Rosemary fell into the gravy?

Apparently her nose...she was trying to smell it.

[JenniferB]

I'm not clear on this. What part of Rosemary fell into the gravy?
Rosemary's baby...and it was some nasty azz gravy...

[JohnH]

One thing that helps is that I am able to express my tender observations in a very masculine voice - so the Neanderthals can sit up and take notice!

However, if I am around an appreciative audience I can soften my voice quite a bit.

John

[ReineD]

Frédérique, you might appreciate this story. It happened earlier today.

My 21 year old son is home from college for Christmas week. He is as manly as anyone can get .. 6'4", perfect physique, keeps himself in great shape (played football and wrestled in H.S.), smart, and gorgeous to boot. He's a man's man and a ladies man too. The universe has always smiled upon my son.

Anyway, he got a new smart phone recently, and has been happily downloading apps that do all these wonderful things. He said to me, "And this is my girliest app", as he brandished the phone under my nose for me to see a widget that obtains online recipes based on one or two keyed-in ingredients. I asked him the same question I ask in this forum, "What makes you think that your interest in cooking is girly? You have to eat, don't you?" :)

His answer was interesting. He told me it wasn't the app that was girly, but the way it is graphically represented on his cell phone. He chuckled as he told me that he walks around with a screen covered in peas and pea pods when he is using this app. But he would never not use this widget just because it looks girly to him.

He is quite proud of his developing ability and interest in cooking things that require more than A Man, A Can, and A Plan (http://www.amazon.com/Man-Can-Plan-Great-Meals/dp/1579546072). Despite his busy schedule, he goes to the grocery store, picks up fresh produce, meat, or fish on special, then uses the widget to determine the other ingredients required to make an impressive meal.

I'm very proud of him.

[Frédérique]

Frédérique, you might appreciate this story.
I asked him the same question I ask in this forum, "What makes you think that your interest in cooking is girly? You have to eat, don't you?"

Yes, thanks for the story. I think I should explain something, because most respondents to this thread think I’m talking about aesthetics, and I’m not…

First of all, I never meant to imply that cooking is “girly,” or feminine, but one’s heightened awareness of aromas, or tastes, or textures, or colors may have a connection with crossdressing, since sensory awareness certainly plays a part in the latter. I would add “in most cases,” but I insist there is at least an appreciation for certain feminine articles of clothing amongst male-to-female crossdressers, whether the garments in question look a certain way, feel a certain way, or make you feel a certain way. You are a sensualist, like it or not, even though you may not even consider this “side” of the coin. I know, there are all kinds of MtF crossdressers, but I like to believe that there is a little more going on under the surface, independent of the clothing, which makes us embrace these sensual pleasures. If your “take” on MtF is neither sensual nor pleasurable, I do apologize for my generalization, but I think you need a certain amount of sensitivity to be a crossdresser, especially when you’re so eagerly abandoning your male appearance…

Please don’t think I’m an esthete. I went to the opera many years ago, mainly because the opportunity came up, and I gave it a try. I only related this part of the OP to point out the reaction of typical males the next day – to most men, going to the opera is a sissified activity, and I must admit I felt comfortable and “apart” from them, not as an esthete, but as a so-called sissy, existing in a different place where males and females actually co-mingle as equals. The reaction herein to this off-hand mention of culture seems to reinforce my belief that males believe in and cultivate a perpetual state of deadened senses, which happens to be the whole point of this thread. Of course, crossdressers can be like typical males who turn away from culture and embrace everything that is noisy and violent, or they can be shy, sensitive types whose crossdressing is just a part of the whole. I’m somewhere in-between, but I guarantee I won’t be all dressed up talking about male interests, not now, not ever. How could I break the “spell,” since I chose to enter it, willingly, for a specific feminine reason?

Since you may be reading this, Reine, I wish to declare that saying a certain characteristic is feminine or masculine is easy and convenient, but probably inaccurate. I think you’re the one who pointed out that these are human traits, inherent in all of us, yet somewhere along the line the more sensitive proclivities became associated with females. In that case, we males are merely trying to get in touch with these feelings, emotions, and levels of awareness that may lie dormant and be at odds with the accepted idea of masculinity here in 2010 – most men I know in real life would call a talent for sensory awareness “girly,” and thus unacceptable, for whatever prejudicial reason. The idea I’m trying to get across is sadness at the current state of affairs, where saying something innocuous like “I can smell the rosemary in the gravy” will set you apart from most males in the immediate vicinity, not to mention the officially sanctioned and accepted view of males in our society. The whole thing is a metaphor, get it? BTW – in case you’re wondering, I do all the cooking, since I do have to eat…
:straightface:

[Rogina B]

Recently one of my 9 yr old daughter's classmates commented about my wearing of the color pink as that was a "girls color"...She dreailed it by replying that I had lost a bet with her and she had asked me to..Anyway,on Breast Cancer Awareness Day this past fall,only one boy in her third grade class was"brave enough" to wear a pink shirt!!! I find people that think they are so "cool" to be smallminded as to put a gender tag that is not to be broken on so many things..riding a "girls"bike..LOL

[Charise52]

I personally like the idea of rosemary in the gravy... I have a rosemary bush, and I plan to do just that... the next time I cook... I always wear female clothes, yet I can present as a man as i choose colors and fabrics wisely... and I love to stand around the campfire at hunting camp and swap war stories and hunting stories and philosophize... I have far more female friends than men, and with them I can be one of the girls... and I like that... they all accept me... I feel they accept both my male self and my female self... and that says a lot... I choose my friends carefully, and I am who I am... I am both...

[JenniferB]

rosemary's baby gravy...opera...whatever...
To believe that awareness of any one of these things has anything to do with being "sensitive" or "feminine"...well, sorry but I smell B.S. and not rosemary. It's just another way of trying to stereotype people and how often does that work? very seldom.

[Tima]

To believe that awareness of any one of these things has anything to do with being "sensitive" or "feminine"...well, sorry but I smell B.S. and not rosemary. It's just another way of trying to
stereotype people and how often does that work? very seldom.

Don’t believe it, then. Dislike everyone, distrust everyone, and dump on your fellow crossdressers without thinking first. What are you getting at, anyway? Go on to the next thread and spread your ignorance there. I’m sure your trolling techniques will work wonders for all concerned. Honestly, if you’re a MtF crossdresser (are you really?), how about using a little compassion around here? Who is trying to stereotype people? It’s just a discussion that you may or may not agree with. You quite obviously don’t think before you write, so I fail to see why you are on a discussion forum in the first place. Most respondents are nice about things, because they happen to have feelings for others. Is this feminine, or just human? It doesn’t matter. You can try to get in touch with some of the things that most of us share (and talk about) around here, but I’m guessing you won’t, because you’re here for other reasons. Have fun making enemies, my “dear” Jennifer.
:loser:

[Karren H]

After years of working around engineering office blue print machines. I can't smell much.. Anyway gravy is bad for you!! No mater what fancy pancy herbs you put in it! Lol.

[Starla]

I don't know what I'm enjoying more about this thread....the pretentious pontifications of philosophical poppycock, or the snarky comments of bewilderment, befuddlement and bemusement from others.

Methinks it's the latter (especially since I'm one of the perpetrators....) ;)

[JenniferB]

Have fun making enemies, my “dear” Jennifer.

It never ceases to amaze me how anyone who dares to disagree or have a different opinion on something is automatically labeled a "troll". Anyway...Tima? carry on!

[Kathi Lake]

Jennifer, it's not that you disagree - it's how. You claim not to like labels, and then spread your own, like calling something B.S. etc. Speaking your mind is great. Speaking it without sounding like you want to offend people is much better.

By the way, people, Jennifer refers to herself in her posts as a TS, not a crossdresser.

Kathi

[JenniferB]

Jennifer, it's not that you disagree - it's how. You claim not to like labels, and then spread your own, like calling something B.S. etc. Speaking your mind is great. Speaking it without sounding like you want to offend people is much better.
By the way, people, Jennifer refers to herself in her posts as a TS, not a crossdresser.
Kathi
Kathi, I think Mick Jagger said it best - "you can't always get what you want".

[shannonFL]

Being TG......the antithesis...to male superiority and dominance..which allows living in the moment..tactile and sensory inputs previously ignored, simple things take on a heightened state of cognition,..I value these moments, they occur far too infrequently.......

[ReineD]

Since you may be reading this, Reine, I wish to declare that saying a certain characteristic is feminine or masculine is easy and convenient, but probably inaccurate. I think you’re the one who pointed out that these are human traits, inherent in all of us, yet somewhere along the line the more sensitive proclivities became associated with females. In that case, we males are merely trying to get in touch with these feelings, emotions, and levels of awareness that may lie dormant and be at odds with the accepted idea of masculinity here in 2010 – most men I know in real life would call a talent for sensory awareness “girly,” and thus unacceptable, for whatever prejudicial reason. The idea I’m trying to get across is sadness at the current state of affairs, where saying something innocuous like “I can smell the rosemary in the gravy” will set you apart from most males in the immediate vicinity, not to mention the officially sanctioned and accepted view of males in our society. The whole thing is a metaphor, get it? BTW – in case you’re wondering, I do all the cooking, since I do have to eat…
:straightface:

I agree with everything you say, and I did get it. :hugs:

Where you and I differ is that I think there are many men who can and do smell the rosemary and they are not ashamed of it. My point in the other thread still stands here. The gender gap is narrowing in many areas, and this includes a man's ability to be aware of his feelings.

I was a teenager during second wave feminism. By the time I had my kids, there was an entire new generation of women who expected their baby girls to go to college and have a career, who actually banned Barbie dolls from their houses, who also insisted that their boys help with the dishes while also banning guns (at least when they were little, as I did). I had a doll house for my boys when they were very young, because they wanted to mimic in miniature, the roles they saw being played around them in real life. They all slept with stuffed animals and had them in their rooms until puberty.

I know that during the teenage years, peer pressure to be macho takes over from parental influence, and my boys were no different than anyone else, but they always knew they could cry at home and show their vulnerabilities to their best friends and not be ridiculed for it. Their friends are the same way. I have two adult sons now who feel secure in themselves, and they are not ashamed to experience and show their feelings. They won't melt into tears if they're walking down the street and they see something upsetting. But then, neither will I. I also reserve my tears for the people that I've bonded with.

And I've no doubt that appreciation for the arts will come for them, just as it will for their female peers once all of their tastes mature, their earning powers increase, and they are freer to pursue such leisure activities. I was exposed to classical music, the ballet, and the opera as a child by my father. Not my mother. A taste for the arts is not gender dependent.

I do agree with you that the machismo mask is still present in our society. But I'm also convinced, by looking at the men that I know intimately (my brother, sons, nephews, ex husband, etc) that they are well able to shed it when it is not needed, yet have no trouble putting it back on when it is. Perhaps not all men can get in touch with their feelings as easily as the average woman (it's impossible to measure this), but many, many can and it continues to improve.

[CatAttack]

Most operas were written by men.. what does that mean?

Cigar enthusiasts smoke cigars to enjoy its taste, aroma, feel, etc.. does that make them feminine?

[Starla]

There are lots of men who are sensitive, artistic aesthetes, and there are plenty of women who have all the class and culture of a longshoreman. And both extremes, and everything in-between, are present in TGs as well. Trying to link these qualities with femininity is just perpetuating a stereotype that is largely a cultural construct and, in the end, does nothing to determine whether or not somebody crossdresses, nor to enhance or explain why they do.

[JenniferB]

There are lots of men who are sensitive, artistic aesthetes, and there are plenty of women who have all the class and culture of a longshoreman. And both extremes, and everything in-between, are present in TGs as well. Trying to link these qualities with femininity is just perpetuating a stereotype that is largely a cultural construct and, in the end, does nothing to determine whether or not somebody crossdresses, nor to enhance or explain why they do.
Well done, Starla. Well done.

[Elizabeth Ann]

. . . You are a sensualist, like it or not, even though you may not even consider this “side” of the coin. I know, there are all kinds of MtF crossdressers, but I like to believe that there is a little more going on under the surface, independent of the clothing, which makes us embrace these sensual pleasures. …

. . . The reaction herein to this off-hand mention of culture seems to reinforce my belief that males believe in and cultivate a perpetual state of deadened senses, which happens to be the whole point of this thread.

. . . The idea I’m trying to get across is sadness at the current state of affairs, where saying something innocuous like “I can smell the rosemary in the gravy” will set you apart from most males in the immediate vicinity, not to mention the officially sanctioned and accepted view of males in our society. The whole thing is a metaphor, get it?

This thread saddens me, as well as increasing my considerable crush on Reine. I have enjoyed the musings of Frédérique, but this one seems so judgmental and defensive. If your reference to culture is really only a metaphor, then how do you measure the distribution of "sensuality"? What about the stereotypical "live life in the fast lane, overload the senses" males?

It is the implied value judgments that bother me. I am the son of an 18 year old high school dropout. Her four boys had no exposure to "high" culture, but were taught the value of integrity and authenticity. I worked hard, married the daughter of an art professor (still don't know how I managed that), and got a PhD. I sometimes feel like Eliza Dolittle when trying to reconnect with my high school dropout brother, but I am sometimes amazed by his sensitivities to the people and the world around him. Does it really matter that when we are feeling emotional, I like to listen to Aaron Copland and he prefers Johnny Cash?

There is a 19th Century philosophy called Utilitarianism, which attempts to strip away such normative judgments. It's founder is famous for a quote: "Pushpin is as good as poetry." It means that the pleasure you get from bowling is no different from the pleasure of reading poetry. How could we, as a group who celebrates diversity, place a higher value on being able to discern the ingredients in gravy than on opinions on the perfect cheeseburger? I can't tell one beer from another, whereas my brother has a very discerning palate. Does that make him more "sensual" than me?

To state that "my belief that males believe in and cultivate a perpetual state of deadened senses" baffles me, and leads me to believe that you are defining this by your own standards of sensuality. My art professor father-in-law once told me about a discussion between an art patron and a critic. "I know what I like," the patron declared. "No," the critic responded, "you like what you know." All of us are sensualists. You just quite naturally prefer your indulgence in sensuality to theirs.

Liz

[Starla]

How could we, as a group who celebrates diversity, place a higher value on being able to discern the ingredients in gravy than on opinions on the perfect cheeseburger? I can't tell one beer from another, whereas my brother has a very discerning palate. Does that make him more "sensual" than me?


I think too many people think there is an unbroachable gulf between "high" and "low" culture. I am a study in electicism. I listen to Bach, the Beatles, and even Spike Jones and his City Slickers, the 50's novelty band. I like filet mignon, as well as beef jerky. I can appreciate and enjoy the ironic and misanthropic humor of Seinfeld, the catty wit of Oscar Wilde, or the slapstick of The Three Stooges. I enjoy looking at fine art, but also revel in my comic collections, whether it be Asterix, Peanuts, or Krazy Kat. I like watching football AND soccer. And I can take just as much pleasure in viewing a lavish historical drama, a "chick flick," or a rock-em, sock-em, crash a lot of cars and blow stuff up action film. Put all of THAT in your gravy boat and try to figure out how "sensual" I am, or whether you would figure, not knowing my history or interests, whether that would reliably predict whether or not I would become a crossdresser!