The Follow-Up conversation

[Zoe Preston]

... didn't go too well :sad:

A bit of background. Twenty years ago (after ten years of marriage) I confessed to my wife about my cross-dressing. She's a sweet wonderful woman but she didn't approve. She was extremely concerned that I wasn't going 'funny' as she put it. Things were thrown away and the topic was never raised again.

Until four weeks ago.

Tormented by guilt, my blood pressure had gone through the roof to the extent it was making me ill. I confessed all - again. She re-assured me that she wouldn't leave me and was concerned for me - in fact she suspected something was troubling me.

But, other than the "Are you gay? Do you want to be a woman? Does anyone else know? You haven't been out of the house have you?" she didn't mention it again. (No to all questions BTW)

I didn't press the matter prefering to let her come to terms with this at her own pace. Finally, I thought I had to ask if there was anything else she wanted to ask me. She did. "When did it start?" "Is it getting worse?" It transpires that after our previous 'talk' she assumed I would stop.

I had told my wife how I had previously visited a place in Manchester and mentioned that I would like to visit a different place next month. She asked what went on and when I explained it was a professional make-up and dressing service the atmosphere went quite frosty. She had assumed that my previous visits were for counselling and to help me give-up. Ouch!

So no, she is not happy about me going. She even added "Although you'll probably go anyway!"

Clearly I blundered. I assumed that simply by mentioning my intentions she would give a grudging acceptance. Looks like I shan't be going, otherwise she'll feel that there was little point in running it by her if I was going to go anyway.

My question is "Has anyone here experienced a similar reaction from a loved one?" By which I mean almost a state of denial - if we don't talk about it it will go away?

Has anyone ever gone to counselling looking to be 'cured'. And no, I don't believe there is a cure. In truth I don't want to be cured but equally I don't want to cause anymore upset to my wife.

Basically, I think the follow-up talk was a mistake and that my wife preferred blissful ignorance of what I get up to :sad:

Zoe

[Jennifer in CO]

Very long story short, 30 years ago my wife literally pushed me to take hormones, transition and live as a woman. Five years later she asked me to transition back. I did on both requests. She was and has always been supportive of "Jennifer". Last week, I was getting dressed after my morning shower getting ready for work. For 30 years I have worn a bra and panties and for the last 20 of that under casual to formal female clothes that can typically pass for menswear almost everyday. Last week, I'm getting dressed as she walks in the bedroom and seeing me only in my bra and panty makes the remark, "do you have to wear that?". She has started through menopause so I'm guessing a lot of things around here may change in the next few years....

Jenn

[Sandra]

Hi,

A lot of GGs think that it will go away, sweep it under the carpet and it will go away. Your wife needs to realise that this isn't going to happen, it is a part of who you are, and whilst you may be able to suppress it, it's not going to disappear.

Keeping quiet IMHO isn't going to help either. She needs to know how much this affects you and how it makes you feel. If it isn't talked about and later on she finds out that you are still dressing it is going to make things a lot worse.

I'm not surprised that she's not happy about you going out, especially as she thought the trips were for counselling, she probably feels that she has been lied to.

You might suggest to her that there is a forum here just for wives/partners (FAB) where we help and support each other, we are all at different levels of acceptance.

Like I said though she needs to know that this isn't something that is going to go away.

One other thing if she comes round don't expect things to happen over night, it can and does take years for some.

[Elizabeth Ann]

Zoe,
I think this is not an uncommon attitude. My own wife of 35 years has a similar "don't ask, don't tell" attitude. My own dressing didn't develop until my 50's, and while I tried to not "rub her nose in it," I wasn't very secretive about it either. There was some acknowledgement of it, but the first time she actually brought it up herself was after coming back from a trip to care for her mom with cancer. During a quiet talk about life, she finally said, "I don't want to find women's clothes that are not mine when I am packing for a trip."

The good news is that it has become more open and discussable over time. She can even make small jokes about my drawer full of panties. But although she knows I will answer any question she has, she would just as soon not know. And like you, at times I have volunteered information, and it quickly became clear she did not want to hear it.

Is this a common trait for your wife? For mine, this is just an extension of her desire to avoid unpleasant information or confrontation. Our 20 year old son has confessed to me (when I asked) that he is bisexual, and although a glance at the bumper of his car would raise the question, his mother has never brought it up. This woman's children are the focus of her life, so even I was surprised when she said that she was seriously considering "unfriending" herself from our son's facebook page. She literally said, "I don't want to know . . . "

I guess my point is that perhaps you have made as full disclosure as she desires, and that, without being dishonest, you are entitled to some private life that she chooses not to share in. You know your own wife better than anyone else, but in a similar situation I might interpret, "Although you'll probably go anyway!" as being as close to permission as my wife could bring herself.

So, no, you are not alone.

Liz

[melissacd]

In my case, I told her after 15 years together, she was devastated and would not talk about it at all. For 10 more years we lived together for the most part not dealing with the issue. Eventually not talking about it took a toll on our relationship and on my health and when the matter was brought into the open again she still would not deal with it and in the end we ended the relationship. In our case not talking about it eroded the relationship to the point where it could no longer be salvaged. I do not believe that you can be cured of this and I do not believe that don't ask don't tell is a good strategy for dealing with this part of who you are. The only thing in my mind that can work is finding a way to deal with it together or move on. Since I am sure that you would prefer to stay in the relationship I feel that you need to get her engaged in a dialog about this, preferably with the help of knowledgeable counseling to help you along this path. Avoidance of the issue is sure to make matters worse over time.

My 2 cents

[Zoe Preston]

Thank you for the swift responses, it certainly helps to hear of your experiences to help me put mine into perspective.

Sandra, It's probably the way I phrased it but I should clarify that I've never been out dressed. I visited a dressing service (Transformation) for a make-over etc but I've never been out in public. The confusion arose because I wasn't specific about what went on and my wife filled the gaps with what she wanted to believe. I appreciate the suggestion about the FAB forum but at the moment she doesn't want to know. I've mentioned about useful web links if she needs further info but without any response.

Jennifer that's a heck of a story. Looks like you'll just have to roll with her moods.

Liz I did consider her statement to be of the "Looks like I can't stop you variety". Is it lawyers that say "Never ask a question unless you know the answer?" I was hoping she might say something along the lines of "Well I'd rather you didn't but thank you for being honest about it". Looks like I was wrong :eek:

Zoe

[Sandra]

Sandra, It's probably the way I phrased it but I should clarify that I've never been out dressed. I visited a dressing service (Transformation) for a make-over etc but I've never been out in public. The confusion arose because I wasn't specific about what went on and my wife filled the gaps with what she wanted to believe.
Zoe

Ok I see now :) I still think you both need to talk.

[Lynn Marie]

Before becoming somewhat enlightened on this forum, I thought that the fine art of "sweeping everything under the carpet" was a malady peculier to my ex. I'm beginning to see that it is quite commonplace amongst the fairer sex.

It always drove me nuts that nothing could actually talked out and settled. Things would just be left hanging in space, or "under the carpet", with no resolution. This went completely against the grain with me, and I'm beginning to see that I'm not alone here either.

Just received my official membership card, so allow me to welcome you to the club.

[Zoe Preston]

That's sound advice Melissa but the struggle is getting my wife to talk about it. It hurts her - I can see it in her eyes - and I don't like to upset herso I'm going to have to tread carefully and be patient.

Zoe

[Sandra]

Lynn Marie

It also swings the other way, a lot of cders wont talk things through with their partners.


That's sound advice Melissa but the struggle is getting my wife to talk about it. It hurts her - I can see it in her eyes - and I don't like to upset herso I'm going to have to tread carefully and be patient.

Zoe

Taking it carefully and being patient is good but it still needs to be talked about. Sorry if I seem to be going on and on and I know that a few on here will say, "just carry on and don't say anything to her" but keeping quiet will do know good.

Please try to get her to sit and listen to you. Ok enough from me.

[melissacd]

That's sound advice Melissa but the struggle is getting my wife to talk about it. It hurts her - I can see it in her eyes - and I don't like to upset herso I'm going to have to tread carefully and be patient.

Zoe

Zoe,

Trust me that I do understand that it hurts her and it is very difficult to hurt ones whom you love, however, there will be much emotional pain on both sides as you go through this process. Be careful, be patient, but be persistent and keep her moving along the path with you. She may not like it, but it is reality and if she loves you enough to stick with you through this then I suspect that you will have a much greater relationship for that perserverence.

Melissa

[sissystephanie]

Zoe,the first thing I have to say is that YOU can stop crossdressing if YOU want to. Notice that I emphasised the YOU! Since you are the one doing it, you are the only one who can stop. If you really truly want to stop, you can. I did for 5 years, and only started again because my late wife begged me to. I don't think you want to stop at this point so lets move on!

What you need to do is let her know, with absolutely no uncertainty, that you are still the man she married and always will be!! No matter what kind of clothes you are wearing! She probably thinks you are turning very feminine because of what you are talking to her about. Real men don't go to Transformation places, do they? Well, yes they do if they are CD's as we are!! I myself have been to a Transfomation twice! But I told my late wife about being a CD when I proposed and also told her that I would always be her man no matter what I had on. We had almost 50 together before cancer took her, and we have 2 wonderful children who know I CD.

[DaniPat]

Hi Zoe;

I am so very sorry to hear your wife is not willing to discuss this with you.:sad: If you have no intentions to become female or Transgendered etc, then I think SissyStephanie has a very valid point. Tell her that you have no desire to become a woman and have never had any plans to become one. Explain that the Transformation services are only vanity photo shoots with makeup sessions etc, as they truly are. Let her know you love her for being herself but this is a part of who you are, not who you want to be. I hope this breaks the ice enough where the two of you can sit down and have a real discussion. I wish you well and I hope your wife will accept you for who you are.

TTFN

[Zoe Preston]

Stephanie, you're right when you said I don't want to stop at this point. Let's be honest, I wouldn't go through all the agonising about telling her and then following it up to just give it up. Heck, I could have done that without her ever knowing - if that's what I wanted to do, or felt I could do. That's why I asked about counselling and if anyone has ever gone looking to be 'cured'. I know in my heart that I don't want to stop.

I think half the problem is that my wife knows next to nothing about crossdressing (And why should she?) so I think I have to sit down and show her a couple of sites with general info no matter how awkward it might be for both of us. It would be interesting to have the perspective of any GG's that might have been in this position.

Thanks again Stephanie I appreciate your comments.

Zoe.

[Zoe Preston]

DaniPat, To answer your question, we had a good talk four weeks ago when I was able to re-assure her that I had no desire to become a woman - only to dress as one occasionally. However, she can't get her head around the the 'Why?" As in "You're a man why would you want to pretend to be a woman"?

As I read through my recent posts it seems to read that I feel that my wife has a problem accepting my desires/needs/choices. If it does appear like that, it shouldn't. She's a wonderful person who has been thrown a curveball by me and the problem is my inability to explain my compulsion in a coherent and re-assuring manner. Assuming that is possible.

Zoe

[StacyCD]

I hate to be flip about my answer but I didn't choose crossdressing--it chose me. Some people can give up crossdressing like they could give up their right arm but I really believe they would somehow be different without it. Sometimes I used to wish that I could give it up but I have finally come to realize that crossdressing is a part of me. Hopefully, your wife will come to recognize that crossdressing is a part of you and acceptance can begin. Good luck!

[melissacd]

DaniPat, To answer your question, we had a good talk four weeks ago when I was able to re-assure her that I had no desire to become a woman - only to dress as one occasionally. However, she can't get her head around the the 'Why?" As in "You're a man why would you want to pretend to be a woman"?

As I read through my recent posts it seems to read that I feel that my wife has a problem accepting my desires/needs/choices. If it does appear like that, it shouldn't. She's a wonderful person who has been thrown a curveball by me and the problem is my inability to explain my compulsion in a coherent and re-assuring manner. Assuming that is possible.

Zoe


Well if you feel that explaining it the right way will help her then perhaps getting her to share books, articles and local cross dresser meetings might be a place to start. She cannot wrap her mind around what she does not understand and by educating her on what this is and about your feelings about being dressed you can re-assure her about what this is and who you are. A great book is My Husband Betty. There are many others, plus there are lots of great articles on the web, plus she could read the posts on this forum, plus she could join the FAB group and get support there, plus...there are many options.

[Olivia2]

Zoe,

Starting a thread in the Loved Ones section might get a few GG responses as I'm assuming they don't necessarily frequent this particular forum as often as they might the Loved Ones section. Best of luck.

[linda allen]

Zoe,the first thing I have to say is that YOU can stop crossdressing if YOU want to. Notice that I emphasised the YOU! Since you are the one doing it, you are the only one who can stop. If you really truly want to stop, you can.

I agree. Same with smoking or drinking. I have done both.

That said, My wife doesn't know I dress, and pretty much all I do is wear a bra, sometimes a blouse and panties when she is not around. If she is out of town (rare) I take it a step or two further. It would be great if I could tell her and she would accept, but I'm not willing to take the risk. I would stop dressing altogether before I would hurt or end my marriage of nearly thirty years.

[MarinaKirax]

This back and forth attitude seems very common, yes.

In my wife's case, I was discovered after about 13 years of marriage, having dressed in secret since my teens and twenties. My wife felt terribly deceived, more than anything, and that has been the hardest issue to overcome. She does not embrace my dressing, but has been very openminded about what to her is very strange behaviour (and I do have a bondage thing..). Our problem now is not just that there are times when she is Ok with it, and times when she is not; our problem is that because she has felt deceived in the past, she wants to know about my dressing activities- but the fact that I am dressing sometimes is not pleasing to her. So if I keep a "don't ask, don't tell" stance, then I am hiding things from her (and she begins questioning, searching through internet histories, becomes suspicious, and asks me to account for my time), and if I tell her, it can sometimes just plain put her in a bad mood. There is no middle ground between disclosing that which she can tolerate but finds distasteful, and engaging in subterfuge. I have pointed this impossible situation out to her, but so far we have no solutions. Don't get me wrong, she is very supportive and we are very much in love, but that doesn't necessarily mean she has to love my dressing as much as me.

[Shelly67]

This is only a suggestion -
Perhaps you could agree on a stratergy to talk openly , try to bridge any misunderstandings ? Could professional mediation help ? Its obvious you both care for each other , so praps if you could sit down , agree to listen without interupting , keep the moment short , but do it in a suportive manner - you may just make a little headway . If it gets heated , backing off even . This is just a mere suggestion . In my mind open , honest warm hearted concerned communication is really the foundation of a partnership . Perhaps you need to suggest a good heart to heart ?
What has already occurred cannot be changed , but things we do certainly need an explanation if any of us are to move foward . Being totally upfront , honest and to the point can really hurt , REALLY hurt , BUT on the flipside denial , untruths and secrecy ( even if innocent but discovered) can be seen as deceptive lies and results in stress and greater pain in the long run
The truth is it manifests into depressive unhappyness and eventually illness .

I can only wish you both the very best in trying to attain peaceful understanding and hopefully happiness .
Good luck xx

[Jay Cee]

You did not blunder, Zoe, by coming out (again) to her. You took an important step in helping your health (both physical and mental), and also were being honest with her.

I don't know your wife, so I can't tell if she feels threatened, perturbed, disgusted, or some other emotion(s) regarding your crossdressing. However, she should seek out counselling, and perhaps advice of other GG's who have CD'ing spouses. She needs to accept this part of you. If she can't, and you stop dressing to please her, and then you end up in the hospital due to health complications, well.... that isn't a very viable solution, is it?

You need to stop feeling guilty. Get some counselling, read some books, whatever it takes. Good gawd, it's not like you are committing some sort of felony. You are wearing women's clothing, not robbing banks or mugging people. This is all about perspective, and acceptance. You are not causing your wife pain - her attitude is causing her pain.

Wishing you best of luck, Zoe.

[JamieG]

Zoe, the follow-up talk was not your mistake. Having the follow-up talk 20 years later was your mistake! I think the key to a successful marriage is communication. When I first told my wife, she was angry for a while, and then went into a denial phase like your wife (and many other wives who have been mentioned here). This was okay for a period, because I knew she needed some time to adjust. However, after a few months, I thought it was important that I reopen the conversation. Yes there was yelling and tears (from both us), but in the end we reached a compromise that worked. We worked out boundaries that would not make her uncomfortable, and that would give me some freedom to dress. My advice is to keep talking, but be careful not to bludgeon her over the head with it. Be sure that your usual conversations and interactions are like they were before, but periodically try to work in a conversation about your needs.

As Marina and Shelby have said, many wives have a strong sense of having been deceived. The longer we wait to tell them, the stronger this feeling is. If you made excuses to leave town, or had to hide large purchases of goods and/or services this amplifies things. If you want your wife to start trusting you, you need to be completely upfront with her. You can't go off to a transformation and let her assume that you're getting counseling. You need to start giving her input, and although you don't have to agree to everything she asks, you should work very hard to understand her point of view. If the two of you can come up with mutually-agreeable boundaries, and you can follow them for a significant length of time, then you will start to rebuild trust, and hopefully with trust will come some measure of acceptance.

[Zoe Preston]

Thank you all once again and I'm happy to report a little progress.

Yesterday my wife had asked a couple of questions in response to my follow-up talk. She asked about how it all started and what the attraction was etc. I was vague because it's been going on so long I wasn't certain myself and it's not something I'd thought about.

Clearly I should have. It doesn't help matters along if I encourage her to ask questions and then only give vague answers. So I sat at the computer this morning and typed out my history.

I then - nervously - asked my wife to read some general info at http://www.thegirlinside.com/relationships/ten-ways-to-handle-the-conversation/
and then to read my letter in the hope that it answers most of her questions.

I then left her to read. God she's a slow reader :eek: Or did it just seem that way? No I think she read everything a couple of times.

Hopefully she's a little clearer now that what I do isn't unique and doesn't affect my love for her. She says it has helped. She's terrified of people finding out my 'secret' as she put it so I've re-assured her that I don't - and won't - go out in public.

I forgot to mention about the forum but I'm pretty sure she wouldn't go on it anyway. I feel that she thinks she knows all that she needs to know right now and she's getting fed up with the topic.

A few hours later she asked if I felt better for telling her - I do. I added that I didn't want to overload her with information but that I wanted to fill in some basic gaps.

I asked if it was OK for me to visit a dressing service next month. She said she'd rather I didn't but if I really wanted to go....

The only demand she has made is that I never lie to her. So she nearly exploded when I told her how much the dressing service charged :eek: I could have lied I quickly added :straightface:

Once again, a big thank you to all those of you who have tried to help me :thumbsup: It is much appreciated and was instrumental in helping us to move forward a little.

Time for me to spend some time loving and cherishing my wife. She knows that she is appreciated but it doesn't hurt to remind her.

Zoe

p.s. I hope that it's OK to post a link, if not I'll remove it.

[Chickhe]

I was going to say, not going would be a mistake because you are leading her to believe she can control you and your desire. You are better off, just telling her you wish you could honor her request, but at the same time it is something you really want to do. Invite her to go so she can see it is no big deal... The main thing, is try to be open and honest with her, nobody is perfect and you may not want to share everything because we all have private thoughts and activities. I would not go in to details about the past, just tell her you didn't think she wanted to know and you were just experimenting with it, but now that you know what it means to you, you wanted to include her more.

[Jilmac]

Zoe, It seems as if you are in a similar situation as most of us either are or have been with spouses of SO's. In my case I have been dressing since about 1960 and informed both women whom eventually became my spouses, of my desire to dress while we still dating. Each one married me despite my dressing, but niether one approved. I tried counselling, purging, talking, blaming, and various other "ings" before I realized that I will always have the desire to dress and that desire will never go away.

My second wife was especially concrened of my manhood because she had a brother who was gay and also did drag. In her mind she was convinced that somehow my dressing would "turn me gay". She was also a very sweet, caring, and generous person whom I loved dearly and she returned that love many times over. However she was never able to come to terms with my dressing and I kept it hidden from her until her death in 2007.

I believe all you can do is hope for the best outcome with your wife, and as long as you continue to be open and honest about your intentions, she may eventually be able to come to terms in her own time.

[Zoe Preston]

Apologies to JayCee and JamieG if they felt I ignored their posts. I was a very long time typing my reply and then I had to go eat.

JC I appreciate the sentiments you expressed. Many of which I shared with my wife last month when I told her that stopping was not an option. I do disagree slightly on one point - I AM causing my wife pain. I agree that if she could just accept things it would be easier all round but I think that it's incumbent upon me to allow her to move to acceptance at her own pace. Even if I have to nudge her occasionally.

JamieG - that's sound advice. I think that we're gradually getting to a point were we can talk more freely. I was pleased that my wife came back to the conversation later and asked a couple of pointed questions. Answering them made me feel a bit awkward which is probably how she's been feeling. Personally, I'm happier now knowing that she understands that she can ask me questions - apparently she was reluctant in case I felt like I was being cross-examined.

Jilmac and Chickhe - I think you both make similar points. I think the part about being open and honest is significant and has probably stood me in good stead. Within the article that I asked her to read was a section that said
"In a way, a spouse coming out to you reveals a level of trust and love for you that they’ve never experienced with any other person"

I thought and hoped that that might resonate with her. I think it has.

Right now I know that the best I can hope for is for my wife to begrudgingly tolerate my CD'ing. I'll take that.

One final point.... I am really, really, pleased that I found this forum. It has helped me enormously :)

Zoe

[Kaz]

Hi Zoe,

I have belatedly blundered into this thread, but as a UK girl I just want to say that I empathise with where you are at and much of what you have said rings true for me. My wife also will not talk about it... we are now in a tacit understanding that I CD, but she does not want to see or brush up with anything to do with it. as long as she is happy with this... xx

[Shelly67]

Hi Zoe , you've mentioned going to a dressing service .... Praps theres a slight chance to monopolise here ... ? Why not gently enquire to your wife if she could help you dress instead ? She may have valuable input and ideas .It may even turn out to be fun even . I wouldnt force the issue , but surely it would help maintain communication and trust , should she agree to help ? Be aware tho ( if you aren't already ) an awful lot of partners new to the situation of having a crossdresser in theyre lives arent too willing to see them readily . ....Just an idea like .. please keep talking !
Good luck to you both

[Zoe Preston]

Kaz, I suspect I've probably made as much progress as I'm likely to and that we are indeed in a very similar situation.

I was at home by myself today while my wife visited her mother. Usually when she gets home she asks me what I got up to. Usually. Not today though :eek:

Obviously she didn't want to know what I did because I would have told her if asked. Don't ask don't tell is still alive and well here :)

BTW I like the wig you're wearing. I've just bought one like it and it doesn't really suit me at all. Looks good on you though.

Zoe

[Zoe Preston]

Shelly, that's a nice idea but I'm afraid it will have to be filed under 'unfulfilled fantasies' :sad:

My wife doesn't want any involvement in my dressing and that's her right. She hasn't asked to see my clothes - I've told her I've got quite a stash - or what I look like.

I have thought of asking if she wanted to come to the dressing service with me to see for herself what goes on. But five hours of watched me getting dolled-up might be too much for her to bear. To be honest, she might suck all the fun out of it for me if she's sat there with a face like a sucked prune :D

Zoe

[Elizabeth Ann]

Zoe,
I can't seem to leave this alone. Apparently, I have a different view of marriage than most of us on this forum. My 35 year marriage has been a wonderful, essential, and fundamental part of my life. But my life is not my marriage, and while my wife and I know more about each other than anyone else possibly could, we both recognize the individuality of the other.

We included a poem by Kahlil Gibran in our wedding program, and over the decades have not seen fit to regret it:

Then Almitra spoke again and said, And what of Marriage, Master?
And he answered saying:
You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.
You shall be together when the white wings of death scatter your days.
Ay, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.
But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.

Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.
Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.

Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.
For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
And stand together yet not too near together:
For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow.


If your wife (and mine) choose not to be involved in our crossdressing, I don't really understand why some on this list assert that you should force the issue. Don't ask, don't tell is not a perfect solution, but your wife has the right to choose it. I don't believe that the no talk option will destroy a marriage, as there are many many such long term marriages among members of this forum. I dearly love sailboat racing and my wife steadfastly refuses to race with me. She is an avid scrapbooker, and I have never glued a photo to a page. Somehow we manage.

Liz

[lingerieLiz]

Wives handle it in a lot of different ways. My wife likes to watch female impersonator shows and is not bothered by it. While she accepts most of my dressing she is has times in which it botters her. Give her time and don't push her.