Transition reality and compromise?

[curiousrabbit]

Hi everyone! :) I’m a 27 year old male and have always entertained thoughts of being female. Though, long ago it was clear I would just make a really ugly woman (haha). The reality is changing my body to female is simply not really possible (without a load of surgery, and even then I doubt I would be so hot haha).

Oh well, I had gotten over that “shocker” a long time ago. I make an attractive guy (and I’m told men / women generally like how I look, so, things could be worse).

But, lately I have run into the thoughts of hormone treatment.

Now, this isn’t an attempt to become a woman (just not really possible in an acceptable way). Simply, I think it would be nice to slide a little towards the feminine side of things a little bit.

From what I have found out, hormones advantages are:

Better skin (yay!)

Less body hair growth and less hair loss (both great!)

Re-distribution of fat and muscle (great! I’m in good shape and not really muscular, so a slight change would be nice)

The disadvantages are:

Emotional (sounds like fun! :D )

Less sex drive (*shrug* maybe I will get more work done? :P Not like I am in relationships with anyone).

Smaller “manhood” (again, doesn’t really matter to me, I don’t have an obsession with my thing and don’t want to have children.. )

Breasts (The girls in my family have large breasts, so, this might be a problem… I figure I can just adjust the hormones if I begin to develop too large of a chest, small breast would be cute / fun to have though).

Risks of cancer / bloodclots (from what I understand, these are very rare. I would love some numbers / statistics to get a better idea of what “rare” means though.. I would rather not kill myself in order to play around with my form).



So, unless I am missing something, this seems like a good idea? I can always stop taking it if things start to head in a direction that I don’t like (and the cost is relatively low).

Would love to hear thoughts on this. I’m sure everyone here has much more knowledge than I do (though, I have been reading a lot of archive threads and googling .. .nothing so far that makes it seem too scary).

[sandra-leigh]

Add liver problems to the list of risks. Especially if you are over 40 or so and you are taking oral doses. I am over 40 and I'm also taking medications that are also said to be hard on the liver, so oral estrogen is out for me.

[curiousrabbit]

How common are liver issues (and the other issues like bloodclots and cancer?)? I am guessing fitness helps a great deal in avoiding those types of complications? (I am very fit, 150 pounds at 5'10'' and eat very healthy... along with no drugs or smoking or medications).

The only "bad" thing I do now is drink some diet coke every day with lunch and dinner (but I'm giving it up and would be off it before starting anything like hormones).

While it would be great to have some added feminine physical changes, it isn't worth it if it is going to end up killing me :| I'm guessing because I am not seeking a full transition, that the dose would be lighter (which also would reduce complications from over-stressing liver or bloodclots?).

[sandra-leigh]

I have heard different numbers for breast cancer. 1 in 1700 according to one particular transition study (that is, exactly one person in the study did develop problems during the study period.) On the other hand, when I brought up HRT with my general practitioner, he said that without serious anti-androgens that poisen the ability to make T, or without castration, that the chance of breast cancer on a pure estrogen treatement was found to be multiplied enormously; he didn't phrase it as a "risk", he phrased it as an inevitability for such treatments.

Blood clots: I do not recall seeing any figures, but reading here gives me the impression that warning leg pains are more common than not. The situation needs to be actively managed. Untreated blood clots can result in sudden death -- a situation unlike breast cancer where there are treatments after detection. If your HDL is too high at the beginning, HRT may be refused.

Liver: again, no figures; what I know on this is that the medical establishment considers it too risky for oral doses after age 40. Fortunately there are alternatives that are easier on the liver.

[curiousrabbit]

So, to help avoid problems with the breast cancer, I would just have to take anti-androgens? That doesn't seem to be a problem. And the liver thing seems easy to work around too. That just leaves blood-clots... which is more of a general risk (and, being healthy keeps that one in more check).

From what I understand, it seems the risks are pretty low so far as they apply to my sittuation?

Thanks a bunch for the help btw :)

[CharleneT]

I do not think that it is a good idea to consider HRT unless you absolutely cannot live without it. There are plenty of reasons, but I am going to mention just a few that I think you may not have considered:

1. The changes from HRT are in most cases permanent. There is a point, up to which you can quit and they will reverse. Problem is that point is different for everyone and there is no reliable way to know when. So if you start, know that you will have to live with those changes for life.

2. Once you are on Estrogen, and your Testosterone production is shut down, you will have to continue to take Estrogen for the rest of your life. You cannot go without one and live a healthy life. So, even if you dial down the dose to avoid large breasts, you actually cannot stop their development. That is because it really takes a lot less Estrogen than people think. The low dose route is slower, not less effective.

3. It is not an Ala'carte menu, you'll get the full range of affects. The kicker is that the "mix" varies, so you'll have to live with whatever happens.

4. You mention redistribution of fat and muscle ... yes, that will happen. Often you will lose about 40% or so of your strength in the process. So along with a different shape, you'll be no stronger than the average woman. Do not under estimate how this may make you feel. Fat only redistributes if you have it, ie if you are skinny, ain't gonna see a big change.

5. If you are living as a man, and have decent breast development, you should consider that going to the gym and pools/oceans in particular may become difficult - or at least may cause some questions.

6. Oh yeah, that sex drive thing. Not just drive, you penis will shrink. How much ? Maybe 50%, testicles too. Will they be "usable", maybe, again it varies. I do not know of an accurate number, but I think you should consider it likely that you will not have much - if any - use of that organ again. Your sex drive doesn't necessarily go away, but it will change a lot. See the "emotions" part for some of that.

I am sorry to sound negative, but from what I've read, you seem rather cavalier about a process that is literally life changing. In most cases bad things do not happen, but please keep in mind that this is a one way street. You'd better really, really, want to be a woman for the rest of your life. That is why

[Eve_WA]

You dont state where you are from. Here in the US, you just cant get these medications unless you are in the act of transitioning. And to transition, you need psychological counseling and then a reference to a endocrinologist to do the prescribing, periodic blood tests, etc. As you state that you do not desire to transition, this sounds rather odd and even dangerous. Some of these changes, if allowed to progress far enough, dont go back if you tire of them. I would seriously consider why you want to do this, and if there is a deeper desire/need that you are not considering.

My 2 cents.

[Stephenie S]

Hormone therapy is not to be trifled with. Those who actually TAKE hormones do so not because they WANT to, but because they HAVE to. The side effects listed above are real. Liver damage. Blood clots (stroke, heart attack, pulmonary embolism). Cancer. Which do you prefer? Can you live without your liver? How about stroking out and not being able to talk or feed yourself? Want just a little heart attack? How about a little cancer?

Those who HAVE to transition or die (and believe me, that is the case for more than you may think) HAVE to suffer the risks of hormone therapy. To think about hormone therapy just because you might like softer skin or breast development is as foolish a wish as I have heard in a long time.

If you HAVE to transition because you are a woman, well you'll have to risk hormone therapy. To play with hormones for ANY other reason is just plane DUMB. I am sorry to be so blunt, but it needs to be said. Preface a question about hormone therapy with, "I don't want to transition but, "I want boobs, or hips, or whatever", and you are treading on dangerous ground.

S

[Melody Moore]

There is a lot you can do to feminise before going on hormones, such as facial hair removal, thinning down
your eyebrows, make up, growing your hair out, dressing appropriately, learning female mannerisms, how
to walk, sit, body language etc, and how to talk like a female. If you are successful in presenting as a female
who is comfortable in this gender role, your doctors & therapist might approve you for hormone treatment
fairly quickly if you know this is really what you want and are willing to accept the risks that go along with it.

I have seen some shocking photos of some transsexuals in male mode before they transitioned and it is hard
to believe sometimes it is the same person. If you seen my photos before & after, I am pretty much the same.

Also I ran into a friend the other day at another friends place who also knew me before I started my transition
and he hasn't seen me as a female. He was shocked at how different & good I looked as a female. I have been.
trying to call this guy who has been a friend for over 20 years but he has been avoiding me and I asked him why?
He told me he was having a hard time with it since I first told him that I was going to transition & that he didn't
think it was possible for me to look so good as a female with the image that he had of me previously as a male.
But my friend was full of compliments about how I looked and presented and even gave me a hug & a kiss on the
cheek as he was leaving my other friends house. So it is obvious he is now seeing me & accepting me as a female
now and not as a male. Don't ever try to judge how you will look as a female yourself because often our own view
is distorted. Just focus on feminisation and the rest will soon all fall into place & you will get positive feedback.

Good luck. :hugs:

[Stephanie Anne]

Come to terms with being trans or inter sexed first then worry about HRT. It's not really a halfway measure and I would not be surprised if the vast majority of people who go on HRT without having a realization about themselves beforehand, regret it.

For those of us who are trans and inter sexed, hrt has been a physical and emotional relief. Feminization or masculinazation don't really matter so much.

[Traci Elizabeth]

I do not think that it is a good idea to consider HRT unless you absolutely cannot live without it. There are plenty of reasons, but I am going to mention just a few that I think you may not have considered:

1. The changes from HRT are in most cases permanent. There is a point, up to which you can quit and they will reverse. Problem is that point is different for everyone and there is no reliable way to know when. So if you start, know that you will have to live with those changes for life.

2. Once you are on Estrogen, and your Testosterone production is shut down, you will have to continue to take Estrogen for the rest of your life. You cannot go without one and live a healthy life. So, even if you dial down the dose to avoid large breasts, you actually cannot stop their development. That is because it really takes a lot less Estrogen than people think. The low dose route is slower, not less effective.

3. It is not an Ala'carte menu, you'll get the full range of affects. The kicker is that the "mix" varies, so you'll have to live with whatever happens.

4. You mention redistribution of fat and muscle ... yes, that will happen. Often you will lose about 40% or so of your strength in the process. So along with a different shape, you'll be no stronger than the average woman. Do not under estimate how this may make you feel. Fat only redistributes if you have it, ie if you are skinny, ain't gonna see a big change.

5. If you are living as a man, and have decent breast development, you should consider that going to the gym and pools/oceans in particular may become difficult - or at least may cause some questions.

6. Oh yeah, that sex drive thing. Not just drive, you penis will shrink. How much ? Maybe 50%, testicles too. Will they be "usable", maybe, again it varies. I do not know of an accurate number, but I think you should consider it likely that you will not have much - if any - use of that organ again. Your sex drive doesn't necessarily go away, but it will change a lot. See the "emotions" part for some of that.

I am sorry to sound negative, but from what I've read, you seem rather cavalier about a process that is literally life changing. In most cases bad things do not happen, but please keep in mind that this is a one way street. You'd better really, really, want to be a woman for the rest of your life. That is why


:iagree: And you seem to be wanting to play Russian Roulette, in which case, you will loose!

[Melody Moore]

I agree with Charlene, Stephanie & Traci.

You have to come to terms with being a female first of all and also be willing to lose all your family, friends & relationships
because sometimes some of your friends & family won't be accepting of it and as I showed you in my last post, some people
do have a difficult time coming to terms with it. I have been very lucky in that only my family has issues with my transitioning,
whereas all my friends have accepted me or are now starting to finally come to terms with it.

It takes every ounce of mental discipline & strength to come to terms with it & deal with at first but it gets a lot easier as time goes
on. It is the same for feminisation it becomes easier and more natural after the more time & effort you invest into it in the beginning.
I don't even have to think about being feminine now, I just am a female 24/7 both when out socialising and when I am at home alone.

I elected to live full-time as a female before going on hormones to see how I would feel, adapt & be accepted into my new
gender role. I was pleasantly surprised all round at the outcome. Even without hormones I was very comfortable as a female.

So I urge others to try the same test before making such a life changing decision to go
on hormones. You will find the most successful transitions often happen the same way.

[curiousrabbit]

Oh yea, I forgot to say where I am :) I'm in Los Angeles (california).... so, probably makes getting access to this stuff easier? haha


Come to terms with being trans or inter sexed first then worry about HRT

Ohhh yup, I knew long ago I am right in the middle of the gender game.

I don't look at things as "male" OR "female"... i just look at different qualities individually (and then how they contribute to the person as a total).

While it would be great to be completely female, it just isn't possible for me (not in a way I would accept). If someone came and said "here is a new super cute female body" I might take it, but turning my body / face into a "super cute female body" just isn't practical (I guess I could reach a point with a lifetime of surgery and complications, but that seems to result in some strange forms).


1. The changes from HRT are in most cases permanent. There is a point, up to which you can quit and they will reverse. Problem is that point is different for everyone and there is no reliable way to know when. So if you start, know that you will have to live with those changes for life

I'm fine with some permanent changes. From what I understand, the physical changes happen pretty slowly... so it isn't like I would wake up one day with double D's and unable to get rid of them :P If I start to develop in a way I dislike, I could simply pull back or stop completely... seems pretty reasonable.


2. Once you are on Estrogen, and your Testosterone production is shut down, you will have to continue to take Estrogen for the rest of your life. You cannot go without one and live a healthy life. So, even if you dial down the dose to avoid large breasts, you actually cannot stop their development. That is because it really takes a lot less Estrogen than people think. The low dose route is slower, not less effective.

Hmm, this one I didn't know about. I thought you always had the option to halt the hormone treatment? There is a "point of no return"? In which you become dependant on the treatment? How long until that happens?

I don't want to completely shift (for the reasons I said before), just slide over a little. Seems reasonable, people have different levels of hormones... I would just be selecting a more antrogynous state.


4. You mention redistribution of fat and muscle ... yes, that will happen. Often you will lose about 40% or so of your strength in the process. So along with a different shape, you'll be no stronger than the average woman. Do not under estimate how this may make you feel. Fat only redistributes if you have it, ie if you are skinny, ain't gonna see a big change.

I was thinking that with a lower dose, I would retain some of my strength between "male" and "female". But I am fine becoming physically weaker. I was reading that the shape in the shoulders / ribs becomes lessoned as the muscle and fat moves around (which works for me, I think it is one of the much slower changes, so if I start to dislike what is happening... i could stop). But, overall, this is one of the effects I am actually looking forward to. I wouldn't mind losing muscle on my upper body, I think it would help my form.


5. If you are living as a man, and have decent breast development, you should consider that going to the gym and pools/oceans in particular may become difficult - or at least may cause some questions.

That was one thing I was worried about... having larger breasts (like I said, runs in my family). So I was thinking lower dose I could try to control how much of that happens. Smaller breasts would be ok, but too big and it would become socially strange. ((I am really really shy already, so I don't take my shirt off in front of people as a male... and don't visit beaches or gyms)).


6. Oh yeah, that sex drive thing. Not just drive, you penis will shrink. How much ? Maybe 50%, testicles too. Will they be "usable", maybe, again it varies. I do not know of an accurate number, but I think you should consider it likely that you will not have much - if any - use of that organ again. Your sex drive doesn't necessarily go away, but it will change a lot. See the "emotions" part for some of that.

I'm fine with my "thing" shrinking. I actually find my sex drive kind of annoying (and very rarely date). I don't want my sex drive to vanish, but already sex isn't focused on my "thing" (I'm bi, but normally see men and always a bottom if it comes to that... so... that would probably still work haha).



I am sorry to sound negative, but from what I've read, you seem rather cavalier about a process that is literally life changing.

I'm a very cavalier type of person :) I just don't think it would be too life-changing. I don't expect a slightly more feminine body to suddenly change me. I will probably still do the same things every day... still like the same things... there isn't anyone in my life that would even need to know or that I interact with regularly.

Emotionally I might shift a little bit (but I handle emotions very well, I don't expect it being a problem... would probably actually be kind of fun! I wish I were more emotional).


And to transition, you need psychological counseling and then a reference to a endocrinologist to do the prescribing, periodic blood tests, etc.

I was hoping to try and fast-track the entire counseling thing (because, well, I understand myself really well haha). I'm not confused or conflicted, just would rather move a little towards the feminine side of the scale (all the way isn't practical, this is the best I can hope for).

Of course I would want to do it under a doctors care and with checkups to make sure everything is ok. Safety is important to me... honestly this is largely a cosmetic type of thing (with some mental changes), I see it in the same way I would see getting surgery (ok, a little differently because of the emotional changes), each comes with risks for the sake of changing physically. Every time you get put under for surgery, you run the risk of not waking up... but people still go and get a nose-job all the time.

I'm still trying to figure out just how dangerous and how likely the risks are with hormones. If I monitor things carefully and stay on top of my health, I think I should be able to stay pretty safe... which makes it acceptable to play around with. The permanent effects of whatever happens is fine (having a smaller thing or small breasts won't bother me... obviously :P)


Those who HAVE to transition or die (and believe me, that is the case for more than you may think) HAVE to suffer the risks of hormone therapy.

Nope, you're right...that definitely isn't me. I am a pretty happy person overall. My life doesn't revolve around my physical form (sure, I put effort into things and try to make my form as nice as I can... but I'm not going to kill myself if my form becomes something I dislike). I have already lived a long time when I was younger in a body I was pretty disconnected from (I was kind of fat before college haha).

This is the same thing. My body and shape works, at time I like how things are (in some clothes), but generally I do not like my body... so, changing it seems like a good option (as long as the risks aren't too common).

Do I NEED hormones? Nope. Do I think it would be interesting and might make me happier? Yup. :)



Woaaa, that ended up being a longgg reply haha :P

[curiousrabbit]

You have to come to terms with being a female first of all

I think this is a semantics and definition type of thing. I'm not female... never can be. I am male (or so the doctors declared when I was born). I see "male" and "female" as genetic facts... and that is it. How you look, how you act, what social norms you adopt / follow... these things have nothing to do with your genetic status.

Even how you think or change your body does not dictate male or female.

I guess people use these terms because they are easier to understand and makes things nicer when everything is labeled...

But, as for "coming to terms with being female".... I just don't think that will happen. I am male, simply have a lot of mental similarities with females (though, not completely, I still have a lot of things in common with males too... best of both worlds! :D)



and also be willing to lose all your family, friends & relationships
because sometimes some of your friends & family won't be accepting of it and as I showed you in my last post, some people
do have a difficult time coming to terms with it.

*shrug* no problem. I doubt it would come to that though. My family already knows I am pretty "unique". If they have a strong reaction to anything I do, it just makes me laugh.

As for friends and relationships, I don't have many of those... so, pretty safe there :)

And professionally, I'm an artist... so, being different isn't a big issue (of course, I'm not interested in flaunting my personal life at work.. I am a very private person. When I am working, it is business and I leave whatever is happening in my life at home.)

[curiousrabbit]

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/93/1/19

Hmm, this is interesting. Seems breast cancer is far less of an issue (I thought it would be similar to genetic females).

[Veronica_Jean]

I am not certain how to respond. Your cavalier attitude causes me to feel you are not thinking this through and your belief that low doses and typically slow development will allow you to control the effects you have seems rather naive. I apologize if this seems negative, I am just seeing a lot of red flags when I read through your posts.

You define male and female as genetic facts, many researchers would not agree with you since there is no clear scientific evidence to support what is commonly identified as male and female. Additionally, you seem to feel you have no hope of presenting female well and so there is no reason to move to attempt to become female just leaning more toward that side of the spectrum. This attitude screams out a focus on the exterior with no regard to the mental changes that also accompany estrogen. You mention that aspect but don't seem to appreciate that mental changes will also change your perspective which may result in you thinking differently later than you do now about all this.

I developed more quickly and more significantly than is typical, particularly for my age group (over 50). I simply "knew" that the best I could ever hope for was to look like a bear in a dress, but I am told that if they didn't know about me, they would just think I was a woman. My boss (who is a woman) told me she thought it would be a struggle to see me as a woman, but now feels that she struggles to think that I was ever a man.

Therapy is more related to insure you are well adjusted and working toward balance and being a complete person, rather than permission to get hormones. If you are there in your life, why would you ever want to disrupt that by taking hormones? I bet you can find a surgeon that would be willing to give you modest implants if all you want are small breasts. The reduction in body hair and soft skin is a very slow process and trying to limit the amount of other effects you get from estrogen while getting these benefits may be impossible. It does tend to be an all or none situation.

All of us define comfort differently and I appreciate that. Just make sure that what you need is not being overcome by what you want.

Veronica

[curiousrabbit]

There is a lot of confusion with the term male and female... which makes talking about it very difficult (me using it as a label for genetically how you are born, and others using it for being more "feminine" in how they act or feel). I just don't like that I would need to "accept being female" in order to have feminine traits (physical or mental)... because, I am very much male and have had feminine traits my entire life.

I'm not too sure implants would have the same effect :P Then I would just be a man...with implants (which wouldn't really be that cute). A shift in body shape (even slight) is important!

With the mental changes, well, I actually am not too clear on what those consist of (other than emotional, and from what I have read.. that is just a more temporary thing before you get used to it). What other mental changes are there? I was reading that mental / emotional changes happen quicker, so that could be something i assess early on (and, really, it seems interesting to get "another point of view" in my head haha, even if it were short term). Imma curious person! :)

[Melody Moore]

Oh yea, I forgot to say where I am :) I'm in Los Angeles (california).... so, probably makes getting access to this stuff easier? haha
Well good for you, if you think that hormones will help you, then take all you want, we can't stop you.
Others have used a lot of common sense to warn you taking hormones is a game of Russian Roulette


I think this is a semantics and definition type of thing. I'm not female... never can be. I am male (or so the doctors declared when I was born). I see "male" and "female" as genetic facts... and that is it. How you look, how you act, what social norms you adopt / follow... these things have nothing to do with your genetic status.

Wow, I really cannot believe you said that? Obviously you know nothing about me & know only a little bit about the subject of transsexualism, you obviously still have a lot to learn I think especially given the fact that you are a new member of this site and don't know any of us and what we are trying to offer you here. On this forum you will find there is a huge culmination of knowledge & experience that is being offered to you by people who are a lot older and have had more experience in dealing with these types of issues. I feel that you are making many assumptions here without knowing any of the facts, based upon the little bit that you have read.

For a start you don't know me, nor do you know a lot of the other people who care enough about you to take the time and reply to your post. Let me start by telling you a little more about myself I was born intersex and assigned as a male through surgery as an infant. So trust me doctors get these things wrong all the time. So genetic factors do play a big part in this for me. Besides my own intersex condition, it is widely believed & accepted now after recent research (http://shb-info.org/sexbrain.html) that being transsexual is also an intersex condition where genetics do play a huge part in how we look, act & the social norms that a transsexual will adopt & follow.

For most of us here in the Transsexual community of this forum transitioning is NOT a choice - we either do it or we die! The anxiety & depression that has affected many of us is like a cancer that is killing us slowly from the inside and it gets to a point that it actually starts to affect your physical health. Low immune system & risk of infection is one of the biggest killers of those that manage to live long enough after fighting off the suicidal thoughts that have also plagued us all of our lives. I know this because I have survived both of these threats to my life. Have you?


Even how you think or change your body does not dictate male or female.
Oh doesn't it? You fail to realise that sex & gender are two completely different things. What defines our genders as male & female is how we feel about ourselves, not what is between our legs. What a transsexual is doing by transitioning is changing physiological aspects to match their true gender identity. Our gender identities are defined by how we think & feel about ourselves and about our emotions. Most of us have tried to rewire our brains & convince ourselves we are male, but in reality we are female. This is the result of having the physiological brain & psychological mind of one sex being trapped in the body of the opposite sex. This is why transsexualism is widely recognised and being accepted now as an intersex (M+F) type condition caused by biological factors.


I guess people use these terms because they are easier to understand and makes things nicer when everything is labeled...
Well I believe your guess is wrong & another reason you should never assume these things, because you will find that many of us don't like labels - We are who we are and that is how we want to be accepted, whether you be male or female or as I understand now in your case, more androgynous.


But, as for "coming to terms with being female".... I just don't think that will happen. I am male, simply have a lot of mental similarities with females (though, not completely, I still have a lot of things in common with males too... best of both worlds! :D)
Well good for you, then this also suggests to me that hormones are not the right thing for you. It sounds to me you are not willing to sacrifice the things that we have had to sacrafice, including our libidos & physical strength.


*shrug* no problem. I doubt it would come to that though. My family already knows I am pretty "unique". If they have a strong reaction to anything I do, it just makes me laugh. Well I am glad that your family knows that you are unique, but I don't think that it's a laughing matter that something you do affects them so badly & you don't care. This statement comes across as being quite selfish on your part, because your family obviously cares more about you, than you do of them.


As for friends and relationships, I don't have many of those... so, pretty safe there :)
I wonder why?


And professionally, I'm an artist... so, being different isn't a big issue (of course, I'm not interested in flaunting my personal
ife at work.. I am a very private person. When I am working, it is business and I leave whatever is happening in my life at home.)

Well it seems to me your only choice is to stay in the closet, but for a transsexual, transitioning is important to most
of us because we can't live with the guilt of living a secret double life, it just doesn't work because we eventually
learn to understand that this is one of the root causes a lot of the anxiety & depression that I mentioned earlier.

As with Veronica, I apologise if this seems negative, but I am also seeing a lot of red flags when I read your posts.

[curiousrabbit]

No no, what I was saying isn't bad!


Besides my own intersex condition, it is widely believed & accepted now after recent research that being transsexual is also an intersex condition where genetics do play a huge part in how we look, act & the social norms that a transsexual will adopt & follow.

This is where it gets tricky and the entire "male" or "female" doesn't fit so well. I think we are saying the same thing though.

When I said it had nothing to do with your genetic status, I just meant that label we get when we are born of "male" or "female"... it doesn't make much difference.

You can have a "male" that looks, acts, and thinks more like any other "female". I know socially, it is easier for the person to say "I'm female"... because, well, we don't have a very accepted category for the male that has such high concentration of "female" characteristics. Why can't a person simply be that?

I think a lot of time people are pressured to "choose a side"... like with my entire hormone thing. I don't want to choose a side. I don't want to be completely physically male, and I don't want to be completely physically female (both because you gotta work with what you got, and there are advantages of being male with female characteristics).


You fail to realise that sex & gender are two completely different things

I don't believe in gender :P It is a social construct. 50 years ago, cooking in the kitchen was "gender: female" or looking after the kids was "gender: female" ... gender isn't real, it is invented by the whims of whatever society wants to label it. There are some african tribes where the MEN are the ones who wear makeup and concentrate on beautification... for them, those behaviours are "gender: male" , yet if they took a plane to the states, suddenly they would be "gender: female" ?


but I don't think that it's a laughing matter that something you do affects them so badly & you don't care.

It's my life :P If they have a problem with it, that's their problem and they won't be a part of my life for long. I'm not a fan of doing things because other people think you should (be it society or family or ancient writings passed down ).

I like a healthy life, and that means keeping unhealthy people out of it. Why subject yourself to abuse from anyone?

They know where I stand, so there are no problems :)


This statement comes across as being quite selfish on your part

Time for an oscar wilde quote!! :D

Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. And unselfishness is letting other people’s lives alone, not interfering with them. Selfishness always aims at creating around it an absolute uniformity of type.



Well it seems to me your only choice is to stay in the closet

It's the wise thing to do. The world isn't going to change tomorrow :P While it would be great if everyone were fine with everything we did in our personal lives.... that simply isn't the case. Being careful of "trigger" information is needed in order to function!

I kind of like working. I don't want to lose jobs because of something I do in the privacy of my home.

Everyone lives a double life. People act differently at work than they do with friends. People with a bunch of piercings take them out when they go work the front counter... people with tattoo's cover them up... personal life and work life are 2 different parts of opperating.

I find fighting it all the time and being upset when the world still hasn't changed is just setting up for a hard life.

If someone were visiting a small town in kansas for a week... would you tell them to just be themselves? :P I would tell them to be a bit more discrete! Not because they are ashamed, but simply because they don't want to end up beaten because they are different.

Does it suck? Yup. Is it gonna change in my lifetime? Nope.





But, I'm still trying to figure out the risks with the hormone thing >< And get all the effects together and access if it is ok or not (like voice change might be a problem if it were too much).

So far, it seems like all the possible effects are ok (and it seems pretty safe to use). And it seems like things happen slowly and are mostly reversable... so.. I can't see why some responses are so "you will be doooomed!".

From some posts, it seems like they were saying "if you take hormones, YOU WILL DIE" as if that is just some accepted fact everyone lives with? But then studies like the one I linked said there were no differences in mortality rates.

Because the effects are mostly reversable, why not take it on a trial? Why does it seem like people are saying this is an all or nothing type thing... either I go all girl or stay as I am? Isn't a middle ground possible? (I really don't know the answer to this one hehe, is it possible to take enough to develop changes and then maintain that?).

It just feels like I am missing something that everyone is trying to tell me >< As if I am underestimating the risks? Or is it really as simple as I think it is? Take a pill or put on a patch for a while and your body begins to adjust towards the more feminine spectrum?

[Felicity71]

Ive got to laugh, this is a really silly thread. Why, because I sense the O P is looking to get people to bite. Rabbit, do it, just dont tell us we didnt warn you.

[curiousrabbit]

Bite? Nope, just looking for input :| So, I guess that is biting?

I haven't talked to any doctors about this (which, I'm sure a lot of people here have), and I haven't been researching for years (as, again, I'm sure a lot here have). I know people here know a lot more than me about the subject... I'm just trying to figure out which is the "scare the nooby" stuff, and which is the reality. ((Like on a weightloss forum I was at a long time ago, they would tell newbies that if they EVER ate less than 1200 calories *the magic number in weightloss world* that their bodies would shut down... their organs would be consumed and permanently damaged... and might die. Which, is SOOOO not true and there is so much more to it than that. You can completely stop eating for DAYS and it won't affect your metabolism in the slightest.)

I'm just looking for the reality of hormones... what are the real and likely risks and the effects from short term usage and medium and bla bla all that other stuff. So far, I have gotten a lot of great information :) I really appreciate everyone answering. I know it seems kind of strange :P

[Aprilrain]

I have to agree with everyone here. You sound sure of yourself, that you know you are male and that is that. why don't you just stick with the hormones you've already got, they are free.

I've got some questions for you. You say you've "entertained" thoughts of being a female for a long time. What does that mean? Is that like "gee it would be neat" or is it more like "WTF is wrong with me why do keep thinking and feeling that I want to, need to, long to, wish with all my heart to, be a girl. Not that every TS is conflicted but it is a common theme.

Do you currently CD? Is that why you'd like to feminize your body? If so you'd get a lot more for your money at the make up counter in the mall. Need part time boobs, butt, thighs, this website has a store where you could buy all that stuff it will give you a great figure (probable better than most TS women or GGs for that matter) and it won't kill you.

You say your 150 lbs and 5'8" Just out of curiosity what the heck is so wrong with you that you'd make an ugly woman?

You stated that you are a "cavalier type person". Do you think this is a good thing? Trans or not this is probably some thing about you you might want to consider trying to improve. Or at least recognize that you are this way and then be extra cautious about any life altering decisions you might be thinking about making. Just a thought.

[Stephanie Anne]

Think of hormones as a permanent solution for trans people who need to correct a gender imbalance. They are never meant as a means to reach a middle ground in gender ambiguity. That can easily be done without ever taking any hormones.

You can't take them just long enough to get pleasing looks then stop. They are either permanent or not. There is no middle ground. Except for some slight breast growth but not enough to be "omg titties!!!".

[Aprilrain]

You will get all the info you can read on this subject by googling feminizing hormones or estrogen or progesterone.

I'm not sure if anyone else has said it but depression is also a potential side effect especially of progesterone

[Karen564]

I say go for it...why not.... right ? It's your life, so do as you will...:thumbsup:




Looks girls, you've done your best to warn the curious rabbit, so let it be at that , if he wants to be a girl so bad, just let him ! ~ because he's obviously doesn't want to be a guy anymore..But I do think he knows far more about it than he say's, since he's quoting all of you & then giving .02 back.....sounds to me like his mind was already made up on the OP.

:drink::devil:

[curiousrabbit]

I've got some questions for you. You say you've "entertained" thoughts of being a female for a long time. What does that mean?

Hmmm, I have had a long history of those types of thoughts. I was conflicted when I was younger late teens early 20's... but, got over it?

The typical things. Dressed up like girls when I was very young, always represent myself online as female, body issues and eating issues, suicide issues *never tried anything, just seriously entertaining thoughts from time to time from dissatisfaction :P , and then the many hours trying to see what I would look like with different changes (added bonus to doing art! I can mess with my photos and try out things :D).

I'm pretty free mentally though, I never think "wtf is wrong with you"... I just think "well, you are sure thinking of something new today aren't you?".

Actually, I don't currently CD (haha, though, there might be a dress / wig in the mail... because I am really curious what I would look like in it :D ... I really am curious about a lot of things :P I'll wear it once and probably not mess with it much, I simply don't have the facial structure for a passable female. I have spent many many hours assessing that, and the conclusion is always the same :P).

I'm not interested in pretending either. I want to try and work with what I have. While I may not make a passable female, I could still move in that direction a bit and it being an improvement.... basically, I could be a cuter male (which works, I would be happy with that).


You say your 150 lbs and 5'8" Just out of curiosity what the heck is so wrong with you that you'd make an ugly woman?

I'm 5'10'' :P The issue isn't from the neck down so much (other than a thinner waist wouldn't be bad), it is simply my facial structure is male. I looked into options to fix that, and really the only thing I could do is a bunch of surgery (which I don't have the money for, and am afraid of being torn apart and all bloody o.O).

Soo, again, gotta work with whatcha got :)

It is a subtle dance to be unique in an attractive way without going too far and becoming a spectacle. That is my goal. Shifting my body a bit more feminine, while still retaining attractivenes of my male-self. I want people to look at me and think "that is interesting" in a positive way instead of something negative.


You stated that you are a "cavalier type person". Do you think this is a good thing?

I tend to approach things in a "thinky" way. I think it is a good thing because I become detached from decisions.

Haha, I had to have surgery a few years ago and the doctor came in to talk about the surgery. He was trying to break the news to me that I had a 30 percent chance of not waking up. My reaction was the same as if he had told me what was for lunch :P ((actually, I would have had a stronger reaction for lunch)). I think it actually made him angry! lol

I don't stress or let things which I can not change bother me. If it is something that needs to be considered, i take the information on hand and decide (weighing the good and the bad and the risks...kinda like this).

Obviously I am fine going on with my life as is. While it would be nice to be more feminine, there is only a certain level of risk I would assume to pursue that. Some things I don't see as important risks (such as my "manhood" shrinking, even permanently, it simply isn't a feature I care too much about)... while others are more significant (such as risk for breast cancer later in life, or chances of blood-clots and death...which both seem extremely rare and the latter being an issue faced by people in less strong of shape).


Sooooo, yup :) That's pretty much where I am coming from :P I'm not crazy haha. I'm not looking to blindly down a bottle of hormones so I can suddenly be pretty. Just trying to get a handle on a previously unknown possibility :)

[Aprilrain]

No doctor is going to give you a script without a letter from a therapist so this is where you should probably start if you want hormones. A good gender therapist will help you work out your male/female issues.

Really people here just want you and everyone eles to be safe.

[Kia_Williams]

Neurology (http://www.kelowna.com/forums/topic/transgendered-people-deserve-to-live-the-lives-their-mind-dictates/page/2).

I'll admit to skimming a fair portion of this thread, but a few things caught my attention, heres one.


Hmmm, I have had a long history of those types of thoughts. I was conflicted when I was younger late teens early 20's... but, got over it?

Im going to save you a lot of time here, you drifted to this TS/TG forum interested in hormones to androgenize your form, so it seems, you didn't 'get over it', you got into denial, which.. *shrugs* everybody does it, 'denile is the most popular river', you can relax many of us have probably seen what the cavalier 'the lad' attitude is about, blustering through regular life insecurity.

Want to ask you something on the back of the last post CR... think hard.. Do you Live or Do you Exist?

[katrinakat]

I know what you mean!!!!!! I want it all! But more than anything I'm scared! It would be nice to transition with another T-girl, but that would most likely end in a femme comp., which doesn't suite me well. I need encouragement and advice! I really want to take hormones but I still have doubts!

AUGH, I wish I was a girl, it seems so unfair!

[CharleneT]

I say go for it...why not.... right ? It's your life, so do as you will...:thumbsup:

. . .
:drink::devil:

I think I'm with Karen on this one. Go for it, you are right it takes a while for the effects and so you can decide to quit whenever. Do talk to a doctor about all this sometime, 'K ;)

[Rianna Humble]

The OP seems to have missed the bit that says "This forum is for those with the external genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex, but whose personal identification and psychosocial configuration is that of the opposite sex."

He doesn't fit that - by his own definition - and he is unwilling to listen to our experience or concerns. Not sure what he is doing posting here

[Traci Elizabeth]

Why even waste our time on this one? Obviously, the OP has his own agenda, and has maturity issues and takes transitioning on the whim without regard to the seriousness of his actions.

Today it's small boobs, tomorrow it's extreme body piercing, next week walking on broken glass, next month "what's it like to be gay?", and next year, "what's it like to ride a barrel off Niagara Falls?"!

We have seen this type before!

[Stephanie Anne]

"what's it like to ride a barrel off Niagara Falls?"!

You know come to think of it, I would like to know what that's like.

[Gerrijerry]

This person does not have the slightest idea of what hormones are actually about. Why they are taken and by whom. In fact I rate it as one of the worst threads of the year. I actually don't even think this person is in the community but some young child who is playing on the computer.

[Sharon]

This thread is quickly devolving into a morass of useless patter and wasted care -- at least where the originator of this thread is concerned. I would normally just step in here and close a thread because it seems like just so much wasted energy.

However, as much as I dislike the OP's attitude and argumentative post after post after post (and so forth), I do appreciate the replies he has elicited. Maybe someone on this forum who is willing to listen to the caring words of those who are trying to explain the facts based on their own experiences will read with an open mind and garner some truth. That said, do what you want -- I do not know you and I don't really give a damn.

I am curious though, Rabbit, why did you even start this thread if you are so determined to ignore everyone's thoughts on this matter? It's threads like this one that causes many members to ask themselves "why bother."

[Nicki S]

I have one question, what does this mean.... :P ? I see the OP using it often and have no clue.

[Melody Moore]

I am curious though, Rabbit, why did you even start this thread if you are so determined to ignore everyone's thoughts on this matter? It's threads like this one that causes many members to ask themselves "why bother."

That is my exact thoughts Sharon, 'Why Bother?' If this ignoramus wants to take hormones, I am not
going to try stop them, because I am well & truly past the point of caring about this person anymore.
I will reserve further contributions to this thread for others far more deserving of my care & support.


I have one question, what does this mean.... :P ? I see the OP using it often and have no clue.

:P is a 'Tongue in Cheek" smily - and this is something else that makes me feel like this person is trolling.

[curiousrabbit]

I'm not really sure where this latest reaction is coming from.

I am not taking this lightly and actually giving it very careful consideration as I try to gather as much information as possible (when I first posted, I don't think I even knew about the bloodclots). I have freely and openly admitted I don't know as much about this subject as most people here (obviously) and it is the main reason for the post. I'm sorry if some of you find this offensive that a person would try and learn more (or dare to reply... another strange issue. I had always thought a conversation was a 2 way deal... you don't teach people by talking AT them, you teach them by talking WITH them. When I give my understanding, it is obviously coming from a person who is not as knowledgeable... but it gives you a point from which to see what I am thinking and squash any misunderstandings I have developed up to that point. Like when I said I would just use a long term lighter amount or be able to turn back anytime I felt, apparently (thanks to a PM i recieved) I now know that isn't really possible... which is exactly what I needed to learn.)

So, I'm sorry if some of you find this offensive or "trollish". I am simply trying to figure out the reality of this option as it applies to me and my goals. While it is true I may find this is not the path for me, I will still have a much better understanding of the often marginalized trangender population (which, again, I would think would be a good thing). I believe we are very similar and had I known of these options 10 years ago, I'm sure things would be much different for me today.... but as it stands, I find myself needing to work under the contraints of my sittuation as best as I can.

As I said, I have been very honest and open from the start. Again, sorry if you find this offensive or trollish...

[curiousrabbit]

:P is a 'Tongue in Cheek" smily - and this is something else that makes me feel like this person is trolling.

Actually, those are just tongue faces... which are used to communicate emotion or feeling (which is often hard to do through just text). They kind of slip in when I type. They are used to "soften" otherwise harsher statements.

Such as "You are always late!"

Instead "You are always late! :P" ... which communicates the same information of "you are always late!" but the tongue face lets the person know you aren't really that upset about it and just letting them know without trying to offend or make a big issue of it.

I think this is more of an internet dialect issue (depending which parts of the internet you haunt more often, dedicated forums tend to be have different dialects with these things than games).

Kind of like a lot of times I run into people not knowing what >< means ((which are squinty eyes / scrunched face).

Sorry, I need to be more careful about using these types of things when moving to different communities >< :P

((just so there is no misunderstanding! those last 2 were a joke! Because i said i needed to be more careful using them...but then used them right after that sentence! :P))

[Karan49]

I find this OP to be refreshingly honest and curious as well as asking quite intelligent questions. I transitioned in 1989 and previous to that time I had some, not all, similar questions. I did go on hormone therapy through medical care, but after developing a DD cup size within a year, I read a study about the dangers of hormones and with my doctor's imput I stopped the therapy. Much to my surprise my sexual function returned, my breast size remained, my former skin tone returned, and my hair line diminished. I never was muscular, so no evident change occurred there. Several years later I returned to my hormone therapy after having read about new studies that refuted the previous reports I'd read. Curiousrabbit, I respect where you're coming from as you are giving this issue a lot of thought. I just wanted to share with you my experience with breast growth as I too come from a family where all the women are well endowed, eg. my four sisters, my mom and all my aunts, both sides of the family. My doctor, who had hundreds of trangender patients, explained to me that I would probably grow large breasts given my female relatives did. Good luck in your decision making. In order to get hormone therapy you'll probably have to seek counseling and I'm sure you'll chose a good one. I hope you choose one you can be as honest and forth right with him or her as you've been here. You have a lot to explore and you have my best wishes.

Karan

[Kokoro]

I also believe this person to be a troll, but just in-case here is some advice:

The demeanour you've brought to this forum is is bordering on the offensive. It's the equivalent of being CoCo the Clown on Remembrance Day. A lot of people here have had to go through much hardship during their lives and suffered from a multitude of problems you've clearly not experienced. To speak about taking hormones as a way to improve your self image when others have had to because the only other alternative is death is pure ignorance and callousness. You speak about making decisions without emotions. I'm willing to bet the majority of people here made the decision to go onto life-long hormone treatment not through logic, but by listening their inner feelings. No Transsexual has ever made the decision to become the opposite sex simply because they theorised that it would suit them better for whatever reason. It is something we HAVE to do, not necessarily what we'd want or like to do. Unless you feel this way then you are not Transsexual and therefore shouldn't be taking hormones.

If you genuinely feel you don't know what you are or want to be, though by your own admission you still want to remain male but with female aesthetics so I might be wasting my breath, then you should talk to a therapist. It doesn't even have to be a specialist in gender as they'll refer you to one if they feel you need it. Quite frankly I don't think you quite understand the seriousness of the matter you're trying to discuss.

Oh, and all your excessive smilies and double brackets show is your own insecurity. Which is probably the reason you started this thread in the first place and why you sound so casual about using drugs that will effect how others perceive you.

[Melody Moore]

I'm not really sure where this latest reaction is coming from.
It's coming from your own very attitude - you seem to be wanting to provoke some type of reaction.
And If that wasn't intended, then that is exactly what has happened & you seem to be argumentative.


I'm sorry if some of you find this offensive that a person would try and learn more (or dare to reply... another strange issue. I had always thought a conversation was a 2 way deal... you don't teach people by talking AT them, you teach them by talking WITH them.

You are the first person I have ever known here who claims to be wanting to learn something, but not once
have you asked a single question inviting members here to interact with you for the reasons you just gave here.

Every single thing you have written in your posts are statements, not a question which shows an enquiring mind.
When people have replied and gave you their opinions and advice, you seem to always reply in a way that makes
quite a few people here believe that you know better. Or that only your opinions and feelings matter. I feel that
your post reflect a cocky, know-it-all attitude. If you are serious about learning something here, then a little bit of
humbleness & humility will go a long. People here already feel they can't help you because you don't want to take
any of their advice.

I would not take what Karen just said either as some type of indicator that if you decide to go off hormones your
sexual function will return. Everyone is different, hormones affect everyone differently. I was on hormones for only
4 months and wound up very sick in hospital with Cholecystitis. Since falling ill with this condition I have found that
quite a few transsexuals have suffered the same condition and I have found out that it can be also linked to taking
hormones because oestrogen also converts to Cholesterol which forms Gall Stones (Cholesterol Crystals). This type
of condition is extremely painful and not even morphine does a lot to ease the pain that is how bad it is. Now I have
to go back soon and have surgery to have my gall bladder removed. There are many complications that you can have
with your health when you start playing around with your endocrine system - its a game of Russian Roulette, so if you
like taking these types of risks - then go for it. But if something was to go wrong, then don't ever say that nobody tried
to warn you. Health complications from Hormone therapy are not rare, its more common than you realise, especially if
you are self medicating and are not having your hormone levels checked and your body's functions monitored through
regular blood tests.

[curiousrabbit]

Thanks Karan :) It's nice to know someone doesn't think I'm a troll and can relate to where I am coming from.


The demeanour you've brought to this forum is is bordering on the offensive. It's the equivalent of being CoCo the Clown on Remembrance Day. A lot of people here have had to go through much hardship during their lives and suffered from a multitude of problems you've clearly not experienced.

This bothers me...

I know a lot of people really struggle with this type of thing (and I can completely appreciate that and empathize)... I know that some NEED this in order to move ahead with their lives and would rather be dead without it... again, I can completely understand that.

But, why does it need to be that way for everyone? Should trangenders only be born from such angst / conflict or self loathing or desperation?


I'm willing to bet the majority of people here made the decision to go onto life-long hormone treatment not through logic, but by listening their inner feelings.

I'm not sure that is such a good thing.

When someone considers suicide, their inner feelings tell them they would rather die than continue their life... logically though, if you consider alternatives, you realize (normally with a little time as the feelings pass) that living isn't so horrible and there are many different ways to fix whatever problems you might have at the moment.

Now, I'm not saying that hormone treatment or being transgender is suicide (just nipping that one in the bud). Simply, feelings have a tendancy to change over the years... I believe that thinking about things logically and assessing risks / rewards is really the most important thing a person can do (just my personal logical feelings).


No Transsexual has ever made the decision to become the opposite sex simply because they theorised that it would suit them better for whatever reason.

I thought (sorry if this is incorrect, just what I had thought) is that that is the exact reason why transexuals become the opposite sex. That, they actually ARE the opposite sex as far as internally (how they feel or view themselves) and simply their bodies are showing something different.

Then, when I look at myself, it may be the same (of course, I am still considering). Either way, in both cases, it would be a person trying to adjust their outward body to match their internal state of mind (to different degrees).


Every single thing you have written in your posts are statements, not a question which shows an enquiring mind.

I think this may be a matter of different social standards. I have spent a lot of time in academia (and my family also has always approached things in the same way)... where, ideas are expressed... back and forth. One person says what they are thinking, then the other person says what they are thinking (often on what the first person has said) ...and that goes back and forth as each side begins to understand eachother.

This is similar to debates.

How do I know which questions to ask? I really don't know where to start. I guess I could just phase everything in a question?

I'm sorry if you find me sharing what I am thinking at the moment offensive (really, I don't mean it to be... I realize some of what I have said was ignorant or rushed or communicated poorly)... I just ask you have some extra patience with me and understand the offensive things I say aren't out of malice, simply innocent ignorance.

I have no problem at all with you disagreeing with me, just so long as you tell me why (so I can better understand where you are coming from).

Either way, calling me an "ignoramus" or other names seems rather cruel and out of place... I am not intentionally insulting you...


I was on hormones for only
4 months and wound up very sick in hospital with Cholecystitis. Since falling ill with this condition I have found that
quite a few transsexuals have suffered the same condition and I have found out that it can be also linked to taking
hormones because oestrogen also converts to Cholesterol which forms Gall Stones (Cholesterol Crystals). This type
of condition is extremely painful and not even morphine does a lot to ease the pain that is how bad it is.

You see? This is another thing we have in common :) ((we probably have a lot in common)). I had the same thing a few years ago (it turns out my gall bladder was completely filled with stones) I didn't know what it was for many months(ouchhh), but eventually we figured it out . :)

I completely am with you about the self medicating thing. I wouldn't dare try to do this without a doctor checking on things a lot. Even with a doctor, it appears to be pretty risky ((but, still trying to figure out just how risky, I think I need to talk to a doctor about numbers)).

[Melody Moore]

I realize some of what I have said was ignorant or rushed or communicated poorly)...
Either way, calling me an "ignoramus" or other names seems rather cruel and out of place... I am not intentionally insulting you...


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ignoramus

–noun, plural -mus·es. an extremely ignorant person.

Noone was ever trying to intentionally insult you. I was simply calling it exactly how I seen it &
using the appropriate terminology for someone who is being extremely ignorant. And if you don't
want others to think this of you, then don't be so ignorant about what people are trying to say to
you here. Everyone who has replied has only wanted to help you because they really do CARE!

So how about showing a bit more respect and that you are listening to their points of view? or
even as Sharon, an administrator of this forum pointed out to you, 'why should we even bother?'

[Karen564]

I have no problem at all with you disagreeing with me, just so long as you tell me why (so I can better understand where you are coming from).



I hate to bitch, but maybe it just has to be that way...because I'm in a bitchy mood, but don't worry, I'm the Good Bitch from the East.....lol

I saw a pattern of you being argumentative & poking holes in the good advise you were already given......you may think your being intelligent by inciting a much more in depth & thorough explanation by them just because you may disagree with what they already said.., to which your claiming that's called a conversation .......But why should anyone do that when it appears your looking for a debate.....is this a TS forum or Match TS Wits ?
Frankly, your being very rude to some very nice people that have been kind enough to share some of their actual experiences...Which I'm not getting the impression your really understanding or appreciating what anyone is telling you which couldn't be more crystal clear advise from what I see, yet you keep asking for more & expect them to prove what they say as if they are obligated to convince you...Again & again, you keep biting the hand that's feeding you, which is just being plain rude & arrogant because you have zero experience..only your own so called intelligent way of thinking through things....The only problem with that is, you've been judging what others say as to what is correct & what is false only from one perspective...which is only your own....

So rather than continue the way it's going, why don't you go seek out a therapist & have this discussion with them & then you can argue all you want on your own dime...

Again..Listen.... See a Therapist, See a Therapist, See a Therapist, See a Therapist, See a Therapist..

But pretty sure this will fall upon death ears.....& I can assure you as of now that you are most definitely all male..because it shows...but after the hormones kick in, your male way of thinking will tone down very much...& I can hardly wait to see your new way of thinking & writing in a few years...lol
Good luck..:battingeyelashes:

[curiousrabbit]

So, normally I would reply with a few thoughts of my own and some interesting points about the various things you said (which I do appreciate :), but, I can see it isn't welcome... so... I'll just nod and say thanks? Thanks :)

It irks me that the world is like this, but, well, oh well.

[Karen564]

I'm sorry....Consider what I said some tough love, that's all.....:hugs:

Sometimes it can also do a lot of good to sit back & just listen rather than always speak.....because the one that does all the talking is not listening...nor are they learning anything new..
I'm not suggesting that you should be a mute, because it is your thread...all I'm saying is to at least give the info you were handed to a fair chance to be absorbed before you trash it.

Peace.

[JohnH]

curiousrabbit,

For me the topic of transitioning is a minefield, and if I were to say anything about it I would be sticking my foot in my mouth. Yes, the thought of transitioning has come across my mind repeatedly, but I have made it a point to read up on that topic and gather people's opinions instead of indiscriminately writing about it.

Johanna

[curiousrabbit]

For me the topic of transitioning is a minefield, and if I were to say anything about it I would be sticking my foot in my mouth. Yes, the thought of transitioning has come across my mind repeatedly, but I have made it a point to read up on that topic and gather people's opinions instead of indiscriminately writing about it.

Hmm, I guess I feel a bit differently.

While I may be lacking details about the actual various processes of transitioning (and their complications), I still know a great deal about gender and its physical representation (through my own exploration and consideration, it is actually a subject I have given a great deal of thought into).

I have no problem with being wrong (such as with the idea to "half transition"). When people are afraid of being wrong or are in an environment where it is seen as bad, they simply stay quiet and good ideas or thoughts or points of view are lost (for everyone). Even people with little experience in a subject can offer up very good ideas or points of view (as they draw on their other areas of knowledge in application to the subject).

This actually happened a few months ago with a master sculptor I worked with. He had been doing his work for 20+ years, and felt he knew everything. He had a great problem with someone new offering their points of view or ideas (because, afterall, how could someone else without even a week in sculpture "know more"?). Sadly, I have a difficult time accepting the culture of "ideas are bad", and typically freely offer my thoughts (and, as you can imagine, he disliked me a great deal). And, as it turns out, my experience and understanding and simply logical thinking actually did result in multiple faster and better methods for working (things he had been doing for 20+ years).

Beyond that. When people are afraid to offer their thoughts out of "being rude" or negative reactions... you simply shut down conversation.

For example, the above response about gender therapist. I did not respond with my thoughts on therapists and gender as a whole. This, in turn, did not allow anyone to address my thoughts and offer their own. We both simply are silent on the subject... you thinking what you think, and I thinking what I think... with no exchange.

Oh yes, we have managed to dodge "conflict", but at what cost?

And, that is another thing. I do not find discussion as a negative thing (I actually find it fun and mentally stimulating). "Arguing", to me, is negative and implies some type of hostility. "Discussing" on the other hand, is simply an exchange of ideas without any hostility towards those with different ideas... an open meetings of the minds. If you say something I don't agree with, I don't get mad at you (or think you are rude).. that is a very unhealthy way to react to different points of view.

Like I said, I have spent my life in a culture where this type of discussion is encouraged (and at home, this was how we talked and would spend countless hours back and forth debating subjects... obviously both sides with different levels of knowledge about the various subjects, as will be the case with most things).

And, as it turns out, I really couldn't just keep quiet! haha. You see? I just have to share what I am thinking! Because I don't see it as a bad thing! Some things you filter out (like needlessly insulting people or taking it to a personal level)... but generally I believe that discussion can only lead to finding common ground, better solutions, and overall a common understanding of a problem / issue. Even if both sides end up not agreeing in the end....you still walk away with a much better understanding of the other side.

[Sharon]

{quote]Beyond that. When people are afraid to offer their thoughts out of "being rude" or negative reactions... you simply shut down conversation.[/quote]

Or-r-r-r-r-r..., one could learn to have a discussion without being rude. You know, like an adult.

Thread done.