The "F" word.....

[DebsUK]

....feminism

I've been mulling over posting something about this for a few days, and seeing the response to my thread about the boys' night out has had me thinking a bit. Now, excuse me while I get a bit pretentious and whitter on a little

I think of myself as a feminist. Women are every bit as good as men, often better as they can often solve problems without conflict a lot of the time and have a lot of qualities I admire and even aspire to. I rail against inequality like the woolly liberal I am. Then again, I want to present myself as a woman, so why wouldn't I?

On the other hand, the attitude of some parts of the TG spectrum don't suggest a great attitude to women. There are some who think along the lines of "I'm a woman. All I'm good for is sex, so I'm going to be a ****". And the fem-dom-sissy element where being forced to be female is a humiliation, so again suggesting that women are inferior to men. Even the rest of us, wearing clothes women wouldn't necessarily choose to wear, like skirts, heels, hose. For example, my wife never wears a skirt. She doesn't need to, so why bother? Stupid, impractical, cold things that they are. Also, I think it was Patricia Cornwell that said she thought the whole hose and heels thing was nothing more than a kind of modern-day equivalent of foot-binding. Even makeup is essentially there to enhance the features that make women more attractive to men (big eyes, red lips which are to mimic those elsewhere if you believe Desmond Morris), so in some way works to objectify women. I suppose the postmodern feminist movement is a bit less hardline and allows for a bit more expression of overt femininity

So where does that leave us? There are a lot of of contradictions and even conflicts to being a feminist CD, but are we better or worse feminists as a result? Can we even be true feminists?

Before I sign off, I'm not aiming to judge anyone on the board or in our community. How people choose to dress and what drives them to do it is uniquely personal, and the attitudes of people towards them are just as individual.

Again, apologies for the longish post, but it's a topic I'm interested in, and I think there are a lot of issues around feminism and CDing that aren't discussed that often

[tamarav]

I realize that I am a strong feminist, in the sense that I will defends women's rights to the end.

Additionally, I am a "femmophile" (my name for it), in that I love everything feminine. There is nothing like going to work dressed well and wearing exactly what you want and having your makeup and hair just right. Every aspect of being feminine is a delight. While I do realize that women suffer from the same diseases as males, and have many other issues, I seem to be the superficial lover of the appearance of females.

[Marie-Elise]

Interesting. I read a lot of feminist thought and I agree with some of it while some, I think, is for the birds.

What I can say is that I agree with equal rights and pay and everything else for women. However, I also believe there is a difference between men and women and that there should not be any attempt to minimize or erase it. Men and women are different. Otherwise, there would not have to be any feminist philosophy and men could go out wearing female clothing and nobody would think anything of it.

Having said that, I do have to add that the feminists that I have met and had conversations with that really turn me off to feminism are the ones that talk about there not being a difference. This is usually followed by talk of how the woman's place in society is not valued. And then thoughts about how the work that women traditionally do (raising kids, cooking, managing the family, laundry, cleaning, etc.) is not valued.

I think that's true. But I haven't yet heard anyone describe how to change those perceptions. I mostly hear about how women can go into the office and become managers and do all the things that men do. So the answer is to do what men have traditionally done and further devalue the work that women have traditionally done?

As a man who dresses as a woman, I love women. And I really value the differences.

Didn't mean to rant; this is a topic I have discussed in various ways for decades.

[DaniPat]

Hello Ladies;
IMHO, There is, and has been, hope on the horizon, at least as far as our (U.S.A.) military and gender/sexual preference is concerned. In fact women have been working in male dominated career fields since I was in the A.F from 1979 to 1988.:daydreaming: (I'm weird I actually miss the A.F. and loading weapons) I was in the weapons loading career field, 462x0, and had worked with numerous women on my load crews.:battingeyelashes: And to quell any thoughts of what most of these women looked like - very hot and petite for the most part. They were expected to pull their own, on each of my load crews, as well as all of the other crew chiefs were concerned too. There is no room for feminism or treating a woman different from a man, as far as the work is concerned, if you can't do the work during peace time then you sure as s*%t won't do it during a war. Now, today, women are on the front lines, in harms way, and the U.S. congress finally repealed the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy. All I say is it's about d*%n time. I didn't care if the person working with me was a woman or if they were gay. If they did their job all I saw was a weapons loader. If they didn't then I would counsel them to find a different career field. As the leader of my crew I wanted all members to be able to do their job correctly and efficiently. I didn't see race, creed, gender, or gay, I saw crew members. I knew for a fact that I had crew members who were gay and there were no problems at all on my crew. I feel that equal rights is not only a crusade for women but for all humanity. Irregardless of race, creed, gender, sexual proclivities, I think all should be treated as equals and everything that goes along with that. Being an "Iron Maiden" fan I just want to say -Up the Irons.:2c::bonk: (heavy metal fan since 1971)

Sorry, scotch and a soap box do not mix. I still, to this day, do not see race, gender, creed, sexual proclivities as anything else other than a human being. Being born in Ohio, Jr high and high school in Washington. Liberal, left coast, tendencies with midwest values and ethics do mix well.:D

DaniPat

[Sophie86]

I worked as a TA at university for a Philosophy of Feminism class. I learned that feminist thought covers a wide range of different ideas, some of them conflicting. I found that identify most with liberal feminism (i.e., classical liberalism), because it fits best with my political principles. I'm sure that my feminism is improved and reinforced by my identification with women, but I don't think one has to be a crossdresser in order to believe that women have the same rights as men. I have plenty of male friends who hold that position. They can't all be crossdressers, can they? (I wonder... )

[DaniPat]

You never know,wink wink, know what I mean Gov'na.

Dani Pat

[DebsUK]

I worked as a TA at university for a Philosophy of Feminism class. I learned that feminist thought covers a wide range of different ideas, some of them conflicting. I found that identify most with liberal feminism (i.e., classical liberalism), because it fits best with my political principles. I'm sure that my feminism is improved and reinforced by my identification with women, but I don't think one has to be a crossdresser in order to believe that women have the same rights as men. I have plenty of male friends who hold that position. They can't all be crossdressers, can they? (I wonder... )

This sums up a lot of what I was trying to get at. Y/our opinion of women in society (sorry, if this is starting to sound too academic) is one thing, separate from presenting as a female, but does presenting as a woman give us more empathy/right to be feminist than not? Does the fact we are (by feminist theory) relinquishing social status mean we can favour increasing the social status of the part of the population we are wanting to present as? I mean, I think it does. I'm proud to be a feminist and crossdressing makes me all the more proud but I will never really know how different it is to be a female because I'll go home and take off my dress, makeup, heels and falsies and be a bloke again later on so is the pride valid?

[DaniPat]

Hi DebsUK;
The pride and support for what you believe is always valid, if you have always felt that way, and haven't been swayed by a recent change in lifestyle. I would tend toward the school of thought; whether female, male, transgendered, or a crosdresser, you will fight for what you perceive as a just cause. It isn't how you are dressed, what gender you are, what color your skin is, or what sexual proclivity you follow, but what you see as right or wrong. Treat others as you wish to be treated is still the best basic tenet to follow. A cultural belief is just a societal perception for a custom that has been taught for centuries and has been altered imperceptibly through time but still teaches the same basic premise as when taught centuries ago. Modern times has given us instant communication and technology which can be used for good or evil. I await the time in our future when technology will help to alleviate all bigotry toward others. Everyone is the same on the inside, they want the basics of life, give their children a better life than they had, and to live their life as they have been taught.

Evil will not always win because good people will be ready to win the war. My own interpretation of Edmund Burke "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing....." Just a romantic optimist I guess.

DaniPat

[juno]

I am a strong feminist. I am not sure how much of it is intolerance for people who see females as inferior versus actually being sexist against males.

I don't think makeup is just to look good for men. Women like pretty things. It feels good to decorate yourself to be pretty, in an ornate way, like a flower. So, my opinion is that CDing is not contradictory to feminism.

Also, skirts are not impractical. The obvious female function is for better privacy when squatting to urinate in public, although that need seldom occurs in modern life.

[Shayna2008]

Well, I don't consider myself a feminist, I thought I'd offer my opinion on this, as I've been watching and experiencing these things for years.
I myself don't see skirts and hose as "foot-binding". If I don't want to wear a skirt and hose, I don't. I own them but they aren't something I feel obligated to wear all the time. I mostly wear women's pants in my outfits. Make-up I see as yet another tool one uses to express themselves. I feel it's necessary for me as a CD because it's effective at feminizing me, which is how I choose to express myself. Personally I don't see these things as limits, but rather tools of expression. I work in an office of mainly women, and some wear pant-suits, while others wear dresses and skirts. There's no "obligation" for them to be in skirts/dresses all the time.

Regarding the sissy/fem-dom stuff, it's often a fetish, and dommes actually come up with a variety of ways to humiliate their subs. Some dommes/subs aren't into feminization. CD'ing is just another method to humiliate the male sub via emasculation, right up there with cuckolding, chastity devices, etc. I often see the women worshipped and put into a "goddess" status more than anything. The woman often has all the "power" in this lifestyle (but not always; depends on what those involved prefer in order to be satisfied (sometimes the woman want's to be dominated)).

In these times the lines of gender are getting more and more blurry. More women choose to do "traditionally" male things and more men are doing "traditionally" female things. As a CD trying to get out more and be my female self, this actually makes it very confusing to determine whats "acceptable" behavior when out as a female. However, it can be make life easier too, since expectations of how women are "supposed" to act are more relaxed then they used to be. Depends how you approach the situation I guess.

[Sophie86]

This sums up a lot of what I was trying to get at. Y/our opinion of women in society (sorry, if this is starting to sound too academic) is one thing, separate from presenting as a female, but does presenting as a woman give us more empathy/right to be feminist than not? Does the fact we are (by feminist theory) relinquishing social status mean we can favour increasing the social status of the part of the population we are wanting to present as? I mean, I think it does. I'm proud to be a feminist and crossdressing makes me all the more proud but I will never really know how different it is to be a female because I'll go home and take off my dress, makeup, heels and falsies and be a bloke again later on so is the pride valid?

If you're asking me, as a classical liberal, I would say that the premise of your question is faulty. I don't believe that intellectual credibility comes from being a member of a victimized group, nor do I think that truth is subjective, dependent on one's social group. In my view, anyone (male or female, crossdresser or not) who believes in equal rights and equal respect for women is a feminist.

If you were to ask a radical feminist whether crossdressing gives you a special claim to the title of feminist, though, I think she would say hell no. She couldn't accept a crossdresser as a genuine feminist just because he puts on a skirt anymore than Al Sharpton would accept a person as a genuine black activist just because he smeared on some brown shoe polish. Identity politics says that you cannot be an authentic spokesperson for a group unless you have had the genuine experience of being a member of that group.

I consider myself a feminist because I believe that women have the same individual rights as men, and because I believe that they should have equal power and respect in their relationships with men. In my own marriage, my wife is the breadwinner, while I take care of the house and children. Still, I'm a heterosexual white male, so as far as radical feminism is concerned, I'm part of the problem.

[Rachel Morley]

Even makeup is essentially there to enhance the features that make women more attractive to men (big eyes, red lips which are to mimic those elsewhere if you believe Desmond Morris), so in some way works to objectify women. ........ So where does that leave us? There are a lot of of contradictions and even conflicts to being a feminist CD, but are we better or worse feminists as a result? Can we even be true feminists?
I get what you're saying. It's not just makeup that is used to objectify women either .... all the things we as CDers use (makeup, wigs, breast enhancement, padded panties,etc) are all out there for women too ... for them to use to "enhance" themselves ... why? To further the ideal of what a feminine woman is supposed to look like (??). It's a conspiracy. How does that make us feel as CDers who have a feminist nature? Are we too falling into the trap of having to be as society (men) want us to be? ... or are we "following the pack" because women are are role models? Heavy stuff or what! :straightface: IMHO all CDers should be interested in women’s issues to help women to level the playing field.

[Kate Simmons]

I believe that if you can think in terms of just being yourself as a person and an individual, gender presentation notwithstanding, the "battle" is already halfway won my friend.:)

[cordgrass]

This is a complicated topic. I've had to wrestle with these issues myself quite a bit. I went to a rabidly feminist college and for a long while bought into that sort of worldview. In college, the idea was that women should NEVER be sex objects. I think that's wrong and a simple overreaction to the unfortunate economic situation that made and still makes women act and dress like sex objects for certain jobs--Hooters waitresses, pharma rep, etc. And it's very wrong to require that women put themselves on sexual display for all men to get a paycheck, of course, particularly when women don't have a lot of choice in good-paying jobs. On the other hand, there has been more recognition that both men and women will make more money if they improve their outward appearance. I think this is taking that idea too far, but I can see why she did it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ana-clara-costa/dilma-rousseff-style-photos_b_802187.html#s214263&title=April%202004

I guess the main thing is that it's wrong to force a woman to pretend she's sexually interested in customers to sell things or otherwise increase business. It's not going to go away; men are hardwired to respond to a pretty woman who is feigning sexual interest in them for sound evolutionary reasons. But it is less of a problem if women have complete economic freedom to choose or reject that sort of job, because of course some women enjoy teasing men they aren't interested in so that they can take their money.

The thing that confused me is that I took the overreaction too seriously. When a woman is sexually interested in a man then it is appropriate to make herself a sex object. Now that the shoe is on the other foot and I see and treat boyfriends as sex objects I had to have a good hard look at myself. I think as long as it is completely consensual, then no harm done. I have found it amusing to see that some men are shocked to be treated that way, and with those men we go our separate ways.

But making oneself into an object of desire is a very small part of what it means to be a woman. The clothes do not make the man! :) However, I do think that crossdressing can be a first step to understanding women more, particularly if one has been out and been treated with the same sort of demeaning disregard that some men give women, that a woman is there simply to visually please all the men in her vicinity. The more a man tries to put himself into the shoes of a woman, the more he will succeed over time, if he is at all perceptive.

[lauraabdl]

[QUOTE=DaniPat;2365115]Hello Ladies;
IMHO, There is, and has been, hope on the horizon, at least as far as our (U.S.A.) military and gender/sexual preference is concerned. In fact women have been working in male dominated career fields since I was in the A.F from 1979 to 1988.:daydreaming: (I'm weird I actually miss the A.F. and loading weapons) I was in the weapons loading career field, 462x0, and had worked with numerous women on my load crews.:battingeyelashes: And to quell any thoughts of what most of these women looked like - very hot and petite for the most part. They were expected to pull their own, on each of my load crews, as well as all of the other crew chiefs were concerned too. There is no room for feminism or treating a woman different from a man, as far as the work is concerned, if you can't do the work during peace time then you sure as s*%t won't do it during a war. Now, today, women are on the front lines, in harms way, and the U.S. congress finally repealed the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy. All I say is it's about d*%n time. I didn't care if the person working with me was a woman or if they were gay. If they did their job all I saw was a weapons loader. If they didn't then I would counsel them to find a different career field. As the leader of my crew I wanted all members to be able to do their job correctly and efficiently. I didn't see race, creed, gender, or gay, I saw crew members. I knew for a fact that I had crew members who were gay and there were no problems at all on my crew. I feel that equal rights is not only a crusade for women but for all humanity. Irregardless of race, creed, gender, sexual proclivities, I think all should be treated as equals and everything that goes along with that. Being an "Iron Maiden" fan I just want to say -Up the Irons.:2c::bonk: (heavy metal fan since 1971)

I too was a 462X0 and a crew leader in the AIR FORCE and I must agree with you 100%. As long as the people did their job no one was different.
I for one have come completely out of the closet after five decades and I am so much happier now, minus my SO but thats another story.

[Karren H]

I never under stood Femininism.... I just thought they were crazy women for burning all those pretty bras!!! :D