Why is it ok to be gay, but not ok to crossdress?

[GaleWarning]

Kaly's post, Parents? got me thinking about this question.

To me, crossdressing is a harmless hobby, just as time- and money-consuming as, say, golf or yachting.

On my cv I might mention that I play golf or own a hobie 16, and this would gain kudos with the interviewing panel.

I might mention at the interview that I was gay, and here in NZ that would not make a blind bit of difference (I know this for sure, because I am recruiting right now); in fact, it could count in my favour!

But if I were to list crossdressing as a hobby on my cv or mention during the course of an interview, that it is a passion of mine, my job prospects would evaporate faster than water in a desert.

Why?

[NathalieX66]

twenty years ago my dad says to me "I don't care if you're gay...just don't wear a dress"

Problem is I'm straight, and I like to wear dresses.

I think that's the source of all my frustrations.

[Karren H]

Don't really know why..... That's just the way it is.....

[Eryn]

I might mention at the interview that I was gay, and here in NZ that would not make a blind bit of difference (I know this for sure, because I am recruiting right now); in fact, it could count in my favour!

But if I were to list crossdressing as a hobby on my cv or mention during the course of an interview, that it is a passion of mine, my job prospects would evaporate faster than water in a desert.

Why?

Short answer: Because the gay community has better PR and political clout.

Frankly, if something doesn't apply directly to the employment it's better to keep it off of your cv. For example, being an enthusiastic hunter would be applicable if you're applying for a job at a sporting goods shop, but not if you're trying for a job doing just about anything else. Same goes for CDing.

[Steph.TS]

people are familiar with and have come to terms with gays/homosexuality, but CD'ing/TS is still deemed weird as society doesn't get it. if society saw this activity as being 'safe' then I think it wouldn't be as big of an issue.

[sherri]

I know what you're saying, but there are still a lot of gays in the closet.

[juno]

My idea is that transgender forces people to realize that there is a range of genders, and there is not a solid barrier dividing the "normal" people from "those other" people. If you explain to a people that being straight is not an exact thing, they feel insecure. Being heterosexual and wanting to crossdress messes with their own understanding of safely being a "normal" straight person.

A big part of it is fear of the unknown. People would not freak out if they grew up being more aware of the reality of human sexuality. That is why I feel it is important not to hide transgenderism from children.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Kaly's post, Parents? got me thinking about this question.

To me, crossdressing is a harmless hobby, just as time- and money-consuming as, say, golf or yachting.

On my cv I might mention that I play golf or own a hobie 16, and this would gain kudos with the interviewing panel.

I might mention at the interview that I was gay, and here in NZ that would not make a blind bit of difference (I know this for sure, because I am recruiting right now); in fact, it could count in my favour!

But if I were to list crossdressing as a hobby on my cv or mention during the course of an interview, that it is a passion of mine, my job prospects would evaporate faster than water in a desert.

Why?


I dont know. I have asked that same question over and over. This as confused me for quite some time. I guess society has not came to a point where they can accept crossdressing or transgender as they have being gay. Maybe it still challenges what they see when they look at how a person is dressed and it confuses them.


twenty years ago my dad says to me "I don't care if you're gay...just don't wear a dress"

Problem is I'm straight, and I like to wear dresses.

I think that's the source of all my frustrations.

iT IS oK TO CROSSDRESS, i've never heard that it was'nt.

[Maxi]

There is nothing wrong with a man in a dress. Wait a minute, I am one.
Most people are greatly influenced by peoples opinions, It's the leaders in society that blaze the new trails. We are not afraid of the unknown, but curious about it, and embrace it.
Life is more fun that way.

[GaleWarning]

iT IS oK TO CROSSDRESS, i've never heard that it was'nt.

Try telling that to the Teacher Registration Board, for example.

[Lorileah]

Ignorance, naivete', bad information? All the above? Years of media and politico-social propaganda more than any thing. Ok add religion in there too.

I wouldn't go so far a PR. The gay community has fought hard and worked to disprove most of the inaccuracies that have followed them for years. They haven't totally dispelled any of it just as any minority will never totally remove learned prejudices. But we have a special hurdle. We believe the bad press because we are taught that these rumors are true.

As a group we are as big as the gay community, maybe larger. However "we" cannot form a coalition to make our point because such a large part has convinced themselves that what they do is "wrong". TG's can fade away easily into the bigger melange. Most do. Just look at the pages and pages here where members complain about being treated poorly by friends, families, spouses or neighbors and ask what to do. When the advice is "own it, teach them and be proud of who you are" it is like someone turns on a light and they scamper like mice. It is easier to hide and pretend it does not exist than it is to be out and proud. No different than many minorities who we now envy when they started to work toward acceptance. But they finally decided they didn't want to hide. I am not saying everything is perfect for them yet as closed minded ideas die hard but they have made inroads. And then members here invoke the old "why can't we be accepted like they are?" But they add that they would never ever tell anyone about what they do. Like they expect that one morning, everything will be sweetness and light and they won't even have to try.

We can change ignorance. It won't be easy but we can. We have to start with image. Convince the world we are not all RuPaul or her cronies of self centered divas. We are NOT Norman Bates, Tootsie or even Joe or Jerry (Google it..it is a movie most claim as their favorite TG movie of all time). We are not clowns for amusement, we are not criminals or even insidious ne'er-do-wells (I always wanted to say that). We embrace the stereotypes and then rail against how we are no taken seriously. Remember when gays were portrayed that way? You won't see that in movies anymore. Why because that sort of portrayal would be protested long before it made the screen.

So why is it OK to be gay and not TG? Look in the mirror. We are not bad people. We are viable productive members of the community. We are parents, employees, church members, coaches and athletes. We are doctors, scientists, politicians, police, firefighters, store keepers and teachers. We ARE the community and if we want acceptance in that c0ommunity we have to first convince ourselves we are a part of the community and then show that we can be and are productive abd needed members of society.

[Yolanda_Voils]

Kelly, I get where you're coming from, but clayfish has a valid point..

Crossdressers, gay or not get much more BS from Joe Public than an obvious gay man...

I have my good days and those not so good, as far as passing.. I've had both ends of the spectrum in responses, thankfully none of them required the usage of my 38+p rounds..

One woman in particular, early on a Saturday morning at Riverfest in Chattanooga, STARED at me for a good 2 minutes without breaking eye contact..
I was wearing a very nice light pink chiffon dress, a bit below the knee, some white open toe strappy high heels and I "thought" I was very presentable.. Obviously not, to her anyway..

I feel that had I been an obvious gay person at the same location dressed "gender correct" that she would not have stared.

It shook me up so much, I canceled my plans, which was just to wander around the Riverfest, and drove 1.5 hrs back home.

[Heelsnlegs]

I know this is shallow, but crossdressing wont be OK until hollywood says it will be OK! I dont think anything we do as a community can have the kind of impact that putting Robert Pattinson into a dress will have lol!

[Schatten Lupus]

There are probably many reasons. Two of which I can think of is the social perceptions of masculinity and cross dressing, and that the awareness of gay issues and advancing knowledge that it isn't a choice is why tolerance for gays is way up. It's just a matter of time until those in the transcommunity share an equal acceptance (probably long after all 50 states allow gay marriage.)

[Lorileah]

[COLOR="#800080"] It's just a matter of time until those in the transcommunity share an equal acceptance

Afraid I have to say it will be long after that. Part of which is the gay community has already started cutting strings with the TG community (if it comes up for a vote and TG is mentioned, the gay coalition has no qualms in setting us adrift, check out ENDA) and the fact that so many in the community make it a point to say "I am NOT gay!" at every chance they get like being gay is a pariah. Hey throw me a life line and by the way I hate sailors. No we will be accepted when we come together and show we deserve acceptance.

[lingerieLiz]

I posted this in the Parents thread. "People don't like things that don't fit their perceptions. If you look at a gay person and they fit our perception of what someone of their sex should look like we accept them more readily than if they challenge us with a different image. Two gay men looking like all the straight men in the room will be accepted. Have the two gay men show affection and the atmosphere will change quickly. Let the men or man be dressed differently and hostility will be felt. This is not different than what ethnic or tribal feelings experience in many parts of the world. People want people they associate with to be similar to them."

When I see a gay person presenting as a characture of what we used to believe gays were, I see differences in how people interact with them. A gay who assumes a "normal" presentation mode is able to build relationships with "normal" people and doesn't seem threatening. The same with us, except when we come out. People don't want to know what gays do in the bedroom. With us they see the difference if we leave the closet.

[NicoleScott]

No we will be accepted when we come together and show we deserve acceptance.

This is what the gay community did and is doing. We see gays all the time in all media forms, and we see that they're no threat after all. They're [otherwise] normal and often talented and successful people. When we see crossdressers, it's on Springer and are depicted in a way that the public generally doesn't like, or on a talk show where they are depicted as sexual deviants or psychology subjects in need of a cure. We're still a threat because we haven't shown that were not.
Having said all that, I cannot be a martyr for the cause. I know my boss, and can tell you that without any doubt I would lose my job. Not for being a cd officially, but he would find a way. It's easy to do. Providing for my family trumps helping to improve the public image of the crossdresser. So I'm stuck in the closet.

[kate dresser]

I think that the gays have realy tried to come out of the closet. They still get harased and theres alot of hates crimes towards them. I sure the if the cd community came out and pushed just as much as they have it would be alot different for us. I find it amazing that women can wear both sex's of clothing but we cant,even there panties are called boy short, whats with that. I guess this is just the way its going to be for us.

[JohnH]

Let's confine the discussion of our crossdressing to Male to Female. A woman who wears men's jeans and a plaid shirt is perfectly acceptable in western society. We need to point out that it should not be any different with a man wearing a dress.

It seems OK to bash white males about anything and everything, including crossdressing. Homosexuals had to fight against negative public perceptions.

Johanna

[TGMarla]

The answer is simple: there are a lot of gay people in Hollywood and in the media. There are a lot of gay activists. They have made it neary "in vogue" to be gay, whereas there are almost no transgender or CD activists, and Hollywood portrays crossdressers as a laughing stock.

Incidentally, one has little or nothing to do with the other, so why does this comparison keep coming up?

[NicoleScott]

Incidentally, one has little or nothing to do with the other, so why does this comparison keep coming up?

I think it's because at one time they were both social taboos. Now, only one is.

[docrobbysherry]

Doesn't it come down to this? The average person in the street thinks were ALL PERVS?

And, why shouldn't they? Considering what we hear about CDs in the media? When I started dressing, I was pretty sure that CDs were all pervs and I must be one SICK PUPPY!

Since then, I've actually MET some of u. After online communications here. Nary a perv in the lot!

If the average person could actually get to KNOW a CD, I think MOST would feel quite differently!

[Tamara Croft]

Incidentally, one has little or nothing to do with the other, so why does this comparison keep coming up?

That's sadly where you're wrong. Most people I know automatically assume CD's are gay... reason being, is a lot of CD's are very flamboyant, they come across as gay and not at all like a woman. When I was at sparkle, many of the CD's there where very flamboyant and you could here non-CD's saying things like 'oh there's another gay one'...

[Sheren Kelly]

Let's not forget that gays have fought long and hard for acceptance. (yes, I am aware that Drag Queens led the fight at Stonewall). In the states, gays only recently won the right to be open about their sexuality in the military while fighting for the very people who would prefer them to be invisible.

In the TG world, many are often more comfortable in the closet. If you want change, you have to commit to being out there in the open and risk the backlash. As the gays have said "Invisibility = Death"

[DebsUK]

I agree with pretty much everything Lori said. We don't have a history of anyone carrying the TG torch. Media portrayals are mainly negative, whilst the gay community are for more vocal, militant and well organised and have been since way back all the way to Stonewall and before. Look at the recent case in the UK press about the MI6 guy who was found dead in a locked trunk. The papers were all over the fact that he had a £15,000 collection of women's designerwear (lucky git) linking him to a sex game that went wrong, therefore he's a pervert. Also what we do is very often in secret so it's not like people are used to seeing crossdressed men. Our TS sisters don't have this fallback and I bet they encounter lots of prejudice as a result, but that's more explicable to some people as they see it as a medical condition.

So do we get together and present a proud front? Takes a lot of guts. I'd want to be more out and proud, but right now I'm way too much of a coward and worried about what other people think. I know that's wrong and I do want to fight the good fight once I start finding my predicured strappy sandal-wearing feet again. I guess chipping away at prejudice, picking people up for trans-phobic comments is a good start

[Claire Cook]

Doesn't it come down to this? The average person in the street thinks were ALL PERVS?

And, why shouldn't they? Considering what we hear about CDs in the media? When I started dressing, I was pretty sure that CDs were all pervs and I must be one SICK PUPPY!

Since then, I've actually MET some of u. After online communications here. Nary a perv in the lot!

If the average person could actually get to KNOW a CD, I think MOST would feel quite differently!

DocRS makes a great point here. Once we have accepted ourselves, when others get to know us they are quite likely to feel differently. I think we have seen numerous examples of this in posts to this forum.

Someone referred to "Hollywood" as the frame of reference. I hope that isn't so. If anything, films like Psycho, Dressed to Kill and the Silence of the Lambs reinforced the image of CD's as "perv's, and maybe that is part of the problem.

[Gaby2]

Tough stuff thrown up by your thread, clayfish.

A front-page report in the local press freaked me out recently.

Apparently somebody broke into a house a few streets away from where I live and stole mostly numerous bras and underwear. The editor couldn't resist setting the report with a somewhat shoddy and sarcastic underlying tone.

What really got at me is that if I out my passionate crossdressing (and bra tick) at some time in the future then it won't take a Sherlock Holmes to piece a plausible two-and-two together... add a bit of bloody-mindedness and the wagging tongues will do the rest.

My fears aren't at all realistic, I know.
But why do I even think this rubbish in the first place?
Being gay in Germany is no big deal at all anymore - but even here it's still not ok for most people if you crossdress, particularly in smaller towns.

Take care, Gaby

[darla_g]

I have always thought that the CD community has terrible public relations issues.

I subscribe to the Google news feed under the key word "crossdressing" do you know that 90% of the things that I get are about bank robbers who decided to crossdress before pulling off their heist? Its sad there is so little news of a positive nature. There is no spokesperson who can defend these actions and the general public has huge misconceptions about crossdressing and the people who do it. I don't see that changing unfortunately.

But lets face it there are less than positive role models about. I'm sure you have seen that creepy looking person walking through the mall with that cheap wig, bad makeup, and wearing a raincoat? I'm sorry if i offend but that person can literally be made in two seconds. and it reinforces the ridicule that CDs get.

I do agree with docrobbysherry above, if you would get to know the average CD you would find them to be nice people and not the perv they are perceived to be.

[ErickaJ]

I'm not going to lie. Some of the people in public with things they wear as tg's or cd's doesn't help. I know we need to self express ourselves, but when you go to a family place with a lot of kids and you're wearing caked on makeup, big false lashes, extremely high heels with fishnets and a tight tight mini skirt where your butt sticks out, and you are wearing all this 4 sizes smaller then you really are to boot, it doesn't help the public image. Tastefulness needs to be thought of when we go out as well. Don't get me wrong I see some gg's do the same thing and I'm like omg are you serious? As I have found with my coming out at work and dressing full time, its easier to spot some transgender/cd people then looking at a man or woman that is gay, bisexual, or lesbian. Clothing shows everyone something, it makes statements. You can see a cd/tg more then someones sexuality. Also the lack of media support and support all around from the glbt community can hurt as well. I see it like a BLT sandwhich (I know weird analogy but it'll make sense. Most times when you have a BLT sandwhich, you add miracle whip manase to it. Well, the GLBT community at times can be like the sandwhich, transgender is the miracle whip manase and gets overlooked a lot. With all support efforts being fought, the tg/cd communities normally aren't apart of that. Look at discrimination laws for example. Many states have anti-discrimination laws for sexual orientation but not gender identity (whole other topic later). I think its a big combination of things like this.

Please remember everyone this is only my opinions, I don't mean to upset anyone if I have I apologize.

[Lorileah]

Incidentally, one has little or nothing to do with the other, so why does this comparison keep coming up?

because we are the "T" in LGBT?

[Kaly]

Hey everyone. after reading some of the replies to this thread and my own. I got thinking. Why do we have to Lable everything? Surely if it wasn't labeled then it wouldn't be considered wrong or weird?

Hugs Kalyan x

[Avana]

Actually I think it's more OK to crossdress, as long as it's 'for fun' or 'for irony', as in a drag-themed college party, or a funny television show, but when it crosses the line of gender identity or pornography, then it's no longer.

I think gender is more deeply engrained in society than sexuality, because gender is one step closer to biology, clothing, societal roles, language, even. So it makes sense to me that sexuality would be the first front of liberation.

Crossdressing is itself a rather nebulous thing, which is basically impossible to explain to people in a simple or consistent way. It's not as easy to explain it away as simple as 'when a man loves another man' or 'when a woman loves another woman'. Some people cross dress for sexual gratification, some because they just like the clothing's feel or design, some because they like playing a character and it's a hobby, some because they are transgender.

I think a lot of people are of the feeling that, 'as long as it stays in the bedroom', homosexuality is OK. There are flamboyant homosexuals, but I think in general people see crossdressers as quite a bit more flamboyant (that is, those who go out, who people can see), and let's face it, a lot of people wear things that are borderline offensive (if not outright offensive), or quite at odds with their body type and age, and not everyone wants to be confronted with that, whether you are a genetic man, genetic woman, or cross dresser.

My feeling is that it is only a matter of time though before the gender wall comes down like the sexuality wall has.

[joannemarie barker]

Well said alana I agree with all of that :) crossdressing is much more publicly visual than homosexuality.I have friends that claim to be ok with people being gay but go urgh if they see two guys kissing

[Sarah Doepner]

If the average person could actually get to KNOW a CD, I think MOST would feel quite differently!

Actually many people have met a CD, we just don't let them know about that side of us. Is it their fault they have mistaken impressions?



I think gender is more deeply engrained in society than sexuality, because gender is one step closer to biology, clothing, societal roles, language, even. So it makes sense to me that sexuality would be the first front of liberation.


I hadn't thought of it this way Alana. If it's possible that we are the next layer of the onion that needs to be peeled back and that can't happen until the sexuality layer has been cleared away, it could be a while unless we join in and actively support the GLB efforts.

[janelle]

Do you truly want the real answer??????????????

People understand gay, lesbian. Crossdresses & trans people for them are something out of a movie & cause nothing but trouble. Thats my take on it. I also hope that I did not step on any one's toes, if I did I am truly sorry.

Hugs

[Stephanie Anne]

Because people want commitments /stability. Gay, Lesbian, transsexual. There are all firm commitments and absolutes in people's minds. Bisexuality, crossdressing, gender queer. These all seem like something people do when they are unsure of themselves and everyone now seems to crave confidence.

I guess most people think that there is some hidden slippery sloe that is going to be crossed when you allow acceptance of such things.

I think it is just stupid that anyone would care so much about what another person does with themselves that they would go out of their way to ruin it.

We need a new motto in this world: Mind you own business. If it's not harming other's it's not an issue.

[annabellejorden]

A big part of it is fear of the unknown. People would not freak out if they grew up being more aware of the reality of human sexuality. That is why I feel it is important not to hide transgenderism from children.

This is the reason why I am open with my kid about CD.
In fact, last time she was over ( I get her every other weekend, she's almost 5 ) she wanted me to wear on of my dresses.

The idea of me in a dress bothers her mom and grandma, but her aunt ( her moms sis ) and her husband are cools with it.

If we teach the younger generation to accept us, then maybe one day we will be accepted.

We also have to stop telling people "I'm not gay, I'm strait!"

We are not strait, kinda curvy maybe, but defiantly NOT strait.

[Jill Devine]

Gay people have fought long, hard and publicly for their rights and freedoms. They are out of the closet.
The reality is that most of us in the CD group are not nearly as public. Complaining anonymously on an Internet board won't help (applies equally to me).

[Karinsamatha]

Gay people have fought long, hard and publicly for their rights and freedoms. They are out of the closet.
The reality is that most of us in the CD group are not nearly as public. Complaining anonymously on an Internet board won't help (applies equally to me).

There is much we have to do on our own behalf, Gay and Lesbians have fought long and hard to be recognized, the only way we will be recognized and understood is if we as a group begone to educate people that the way we present / are does not make us monsters or freaks, but people who dress differently because of a number of reasons.
Being Transgendered is not something I chose for myself indeed I don't think any of us made the choice to dress as the opposite gender. In my case it is the only time I feel complete, although the range of reasons is startlingly broad.
Just my :2c:

[Angiemead12]

People don't like it when you can switch back and forth and since cross dressers do that it gets confusing of which category to put us. A gay person just means his sexual preference is the same sex. cross dressing is still confusing to most people, no one understands why a man would want to prance around like a woman if he straight.

Plus media always has some nutty serial killer who likes to cross dress! sucks for us!

[Barbara Dugan]

OK, I guess when you are both is a guarantee you will never be accepted

[Shananigans]

Really, people? Turn on/read the news.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/09/nyregion/09bias.html

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-14/justice/ny.hate.crime_1_gay-man-crimes-men-face?_s=PM:CRIME

The gay/bi/lesbian community has been gaining public nods for getting stereotypical roles on such shows as Will and Grace and Sex and the City, but there's still plenty of hate out there. I think both communities and those who are within both communities still have a lot to deal with as far as acceptance both from their familiar and the public.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b311/TomoeGozen/whichgod2.jpg

[Avana]

Really, people? Turn on/read the news.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/09/nyregion/09bias.html

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-14/justice/ny.hate.crime_1_gay-man-crimes-men-face?_s=PM:CRIME



and on the other side of that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/09/fashion/09TRANS.html

[eluuzion]

Acceptance and tolerance are functions of social norms. Always a slow process on most issues. The more controversial the issue, the slower the progress.

The "gay" acceptance issue, just as other similar conformity issues, experience what appears to be a "surge" forward when the "community involved" (gay, for example)...finally reached an exposure level sufficiently large enough to potentially touch the general population in some way. In short, people seem to become more "understanding and tolerant" when one of those "gay people" turns out to be a family member or close aquaintance...

There are also many more options of "public concealment" available with "gay", than exists with "crossdressing". By concealment, I am referring to the difference in public observation, with crossdressing obviously being more "visable", and requiring less personal "investigation" prior to judgement.(as in discovering gay orientation).

just a few of many factors...IMO

:love:

[juno]

...Incidentally, one has little or nothing to do with the other, so why does this comparison keep coming up?
They have a lot to do with each other. In both cases part of the brain shows a preference that matches the opposite physical gender. For homosexuals, it is the part that determines sexual preference. For us, it is the part that chooses clothing preferences. That is why we all need to stop acting like the other group is so different.

The only solution is for us to get out in public. It is not always easy, but it never will be until we get enough exposure for people to realize that it is not some sort of mental illness.

[Shananigans]

and on the other side of that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/09/fashion/09TRANS.html

Yeah and then on the other-other side, my coworkers flipping their sh*t over that book My Princess Boy (blurb about it in that article you linked) and the story behind it. Saying it was morally wrong for the mother to let her kid dress in whatever he wants because he "needs to learn the social norms that he HAS TO STICK TO...my god, what if he grows up a fag???" (Obviously my coworkers do not know that I am bi or that I am dating a CD...and I'm not sure how long I would have a job/how I would be treated if I started dating a woman and took her to a corporate Christmas party).

Honestly...we aren't as far along as we think...

People are and will always be stupid...but, hopefully the more in their face it is, the more they will begin to realize it isn't going away. Gays have been more persistent about this...crossdressing has mainly been socially accepted as a joke. However, I still maintain that neither side has it easy.

[Avana]

i think the other thing that complicates the mainstream view of cross dressing is drag, as in drag queens, who are embedded into gay culture. they are the pop culture face of cross-dressing.


let's not forget that it was a drag queen who started the stonewall riots, which was considered to be the event that really started gay liberation in the mainstream. the stonewall was a bar that really catered to drag queens and tgirls.

so it's not like transpeople haven't been in this as long as cis-gendered homosexuals, but i think really that its just harder for society to accept gender variation outside of the realm of entertainment than variations in sexuality.

[Carly D]

Short answer: Because the gay community has better PR and political clout.

Frankly, if something doesn't apply directly to the employment it's better to keep it off of your cv. For example, being an enthusiastic hunter would be applicable if you're applying for a job at a sporting goods shop, but not if you're trying for a job doing just about anything else. Same goes for CDing.

Oh damn, well you nailed it with your "because the gay community has better PR and political clout." where indeed they do.. Remember a few years ago when it was quite "in" to admit you were gay in Hollywood? The number of stars to come out was astounding.. And I still say if a star was to come out on a tv show and say they are a cross dresser then that movement might begin.. Some star like Tom Hanks or something.. To me a big star or a few big stars might throw the flood gates wide open..

[ErickaJ]

It's topics like this that make me really want to stand up and shout and strive for tg/cd equality. It sucks that we have the problems in the world we do and the struggles we do as well. I only hope and pray that someday we will have more acceptance in the eyes of the world as being the wonderful people we are. If only half the people would look inside the hearts of us and not just stop at the sight of how we look, they would see we too are just like them, and then the acceptance can begin.

[Blaire]

Short answer: Because the gay community has better PR and political clout.

Frankly, if something doesn't apply directly to the employment it's better to keep it off of your cv. For example, being an enthusiastic hunter would be applicable if you're applying for a job at a sporting goods shop, but not if you're trying for a job doing just about anything else. Same goes for CDing.


I know this is shallow, but crossdressing wont be OK until hollywood says it will be OK! I dont think anything we do as a community can have the kind of impact that putting Robert Pattinson into a dress will have lol!


The answer is simple: there are a lot of gay people in Hollywood and in the media. There are a lot of gay activists. They have made it neary "in vogue" to be gay, whereas there are almost no transgender or CD activists, and Hollywood portrays crossdressers as a laughing stock.

Incidentally, one has little or nothing to do with the other, so why does this comparison keep coming up?


The gay/bi/lesbian community has been gaining public nods for getting stereotypical roles on such shows as Will and Grace and Sex and the City, but there's still plenty of hate out there. I think both communities and those who are within both communities still have a lot to deal with as far as acceptance both from their familiar and the public.

I think that's the main thing right there: Will and Grace. A TV show about a gay guy with a normal (for sitcoms) life, job, and relationships issues. Something Joe plumber can identify with. TV messages affect everyone, and I think made the biggest strides in the last decade were helped tremendously by the exposure. Being gay was advertised - to 10's of millions at the same time - as "potentially normal" and all the nay sayers were left with nothing to work with. Imagine how successful it would have been had Jack been the lead character...

Sure, there's going to be a few that stick with their prejudices, but you'll never be rid of all of them. The best you can hope for is to only be unaccepted by people that are recognised as radical. Going from a 10% level of acceptance to even 51% is still a big swing, even if you still have to worry about 5 of 10 people wanting to be rid of you. At 51%, you have some stroke in society.

[Emme]

A female friend of mine said once,"why do you want to be a woman? men have all the power!

This same woman's daughter once told me I was the only "man," her mom liked. I think we are considered weak. I think gay males "like masculinity", I like femininity, softness, cuddley gowns and soft things. i also like to fly , run the sled dogs, snowmachine, cut wood, and have done a bit of distance sailing. LOL sometimes in a bikini.... a long time ago LOL

My fmale friend did rebuild her cabin in Alaska, alone. I am building my cabin now. My wife is helping me!
I think I have as much power as I want. I do know I am not aggressive enough in business and I like to clean house.

[Jess Marie]

It's stupid that Gay is Ok, but Crossdressing is not. They say if you crossdress you are gay, so in theory, shouldn't it be okay? I'm lucky enough to have a girlfriend who is okay with me doing it because she knows its just an article of clothing, and she realizes that womens clothes are so much better with the material used. I don't know why its social unaccepted, but it should be. Gay people (no offense) can spread diseases, crossdressers do not transmit anything other than great recommendations.

[Alicia_lynn419]

Not to offend anyone, but I whole-heartedly agree with ErickaJ. Though many of us strive to present a positive, feminine image when we are out, there are some who go over the top. I realize there is an "evolution" when it comes to dressing, but dressing age-appropriate and not looking like a **** at the mall is key. When the general public is exposed, perhaps for the first time to a middle-aged, overweight guy in heels and fishnets at the mall, of course there's going to be a negative reaction. Yes Gays have better PR, and we as a whole don't. Are we our own worst enemies? Perhaps at times, yes, but we can change that. Someone mentioned Hollywood. It is lame, but if some big time popular actor came out as a CD, then suddenly we would be cool, and screaming, "I was a CD before CDing was cool..."

There are many aspects to this question, but until we are better represented, or have our own Stonewall, we will have a long road ahead of us.

[Layale]

One thing that I've noticed is that people lump a bunch of types together (LGBT) into one category, when I've found that not everyone within that category even accepts each other. I'm a GG who tries to help her transgendered friend out with this stuff, so we used to try going out at night to bars and clubs for a couple months. We haven't found many Trans places in Atlanta to go to yet, so we had to try a couple gay bars instead, where some had trans nights. One place we went to was extremely friendly, but the other one was terrible! Before going inside we had to show our IDs and the persont hat was checking them looked at my CD friend and just laughed at her! It was definitely not welcoming. To make matters worse, once we were inside, we were pretty much ignored, until I got up to pay for the drinks, leaving her at the table, and when I came back this creepy man was hanging on her, extremely drunk and way too close for comfort. When I got to the table the guy backed off immediately, and we left. (I think I scared him away! xD) Anyways, the point is that, even among the gay community there are people who don't accept CDs :/ It's very disappointing that everybody can't just accept everyone :/

[Shananigans]

It's stupid that Gay is Ok, but Crossdressing is not. They say if you crossdress you are gay, so in theory, shouldn't it be okay? I'm lucky enough to have a girlfriend who is okay with me doing it because she knows its just an article of clothing, and she realizes that womens clothes are so much better with the material used. I don't know why its social unaccepted, but it should be. Gay people (no offense) can spread diseases, crossdressers do not transmit anything other than great recommendations.

Two problems with your post:

1. When people say "Oh, if you're a crossdresser you must be gay." That's putting BOTH CDing and being gay down. It's basically say, "Ew, you where a dress? Ew, I bet you're gay too."
2. GAY PEOPLE DON'T SPREAD DISEASE, PEOPLE IN GENERAL SPREAD DISEASE. I don't know if you are familiar with biology or science at all, but being straight doesn't mean you are clean. You can get an STD just as easily from a straight person as you can from a gay person. So, yes, crossdressers can spread diseases too. Please don't think that your feminine attire acts as a personal body condom.

[CherryZips]

Gay people (no offense) can spread diseases, crossdressers do not transmit anything other than great recommendations.

I appreciate your honesty with your opinion but I'd recommend this is not the place for such ideas if you want to make friends here.

I wish there was a down vote button on this site.

[randumbness]

I think the main step in trying to make crossdressing as acceptable to society as being gay is has to be getting rid of the sexual affiliation people have with crossdressing. I may be putting my head on a chopping block and getting criticized by many here on the forum, but when I'm not cding and as a male from the outside looking in, I see that some (a lot of us, actually) portray crossdressing as something sexual. I know it makes us feel sexy, or makes us feel like a different person. But it's more than that to some of us, if not, all of us. I don't know, I probably am very wrong about this, but I am actually concerned that this might be a part of the problem. If not, well, all the better for us as a community. I'd like to see us accepted not just as LGBT, but as Trans or just crossdressers.

[LilSissyStevie]

I think the main step in trying to make crossdressing as acceptable to society as being gay is has to be getting rid of the sexual affiliation people have with crossdressing.

That's a great idea because everybody knows that there is nothing sexual about being gay.:brolleyes: Being gay is all about liking showtunes and Barbra Streisand concerts.:heehee:

[VeronicaMoonlit]

The gay community has fought hard and worked to disprove most of the inaccuracies that have followed them for years. They haven't totally dispelled any of it just as any minority will never totally remove learned prejudices. But we have a special hurdle. We believe the bad press because we are taught that these rumors are true.

Exactly.


As a group we are as big as the gay community, maybe larger. However "we" cannot form a coalition to make our point because such a large part has convinced themselves that what they do is "wrong". When the advice is "own it, teach them and be proud of who you are" it is like someone turns on a light and they scamper like mice. It is easier to hide and pretend it does not exist than it is to be out and proud.

That's right. ...most CD's would never tell their real names here. And don't forget the "headless crossdresers" some of that is lack of makeup skills or beards, but some is also shame.


No different than many minorities who we now envy when they started to work toward acceptance. But they finally decided they didn't want to hide.

Nods, and the the few Transfolk willing to "do the work" are mostly TS!


I am not saying everything is perfect for them yet as closed minded ideas die hard but they have made inroads.

Still a long way to go.


And then members here invoke the old "why can't we be accepted like they are?" But they add that they would never ever tell anyone about what they do. Like they expect that one morning, everything will be sweetness and light and they won't even have to try.

It's that ole shame thing again.



and the fact that so many in the community make it a point to say "I am NOT gay!" at every chance they get like being gay is a pariah. Hey throw me a life line and by the way I hate sailors.

Yeah. the transfolk that who constanty have to proclaim their heterosexuality are falling for the trap!


No we will be accepted when we come together and show we deserve acceptance.

And when we actually work at it.


Really, people? Turn on/read the news.

Thank you. Things aren't all wine and roses for the G and the L folks either, or the B's the Q's, the Q's or the I's. (or the A's...did I get all the letters?) (GLBTQQIA Gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, transgendered, queer, questioning, intersexed, asexual)


The gay/bi/lesbian community has been gaining public nods for getting stereotypical roles on such shows as Will and Grace and Sex and the City, but there's still plenty of hate out there.

Nods, remember that Jack was protrayed as the "stereotypical flaming nelly", and so were the gay characters on SATC. Even Kurt on Glee is played as something of a stereotype.


I think both communities and those who are within both communities still have a lot to deal with as far as acceptance both from their familiar and the public.

I agree.


Saying it was morally wrong for the mother to let her kid dress in whatever he wants because he "needs to learn the social norms that he HAS TO STICK TO...my god, what if he grows up a fag???" (Obviously my coworkers do not know that I am bi or that I am dating a CD...and I'm not sure how long I would have a job/how I would be treated if I started dating a woman and took her to a corporate Christmas party).

That somewhat varies by region, in the US at least. For example "up here" gender roles are slightly less rigidly enforced, for example we don't have the "pageant culture" that you do, so women feel slightly less societal pressure to be feminine. And "faith" permeates the culture to a slightly less extent. So it's "some" better. People can still be assholes but GLBT people DO have some legal protections, and civil unions will come in June, but it ain't as good as it could be.


Honestly...we aren't as far along as we think...
However, I still maintain that neither side has it easy.

Exactly.

Veronica

[Shananigans]

I think the main step in trying to make crossdressing as acceptable to society as being gay is has to be getting rid of the sexual affiliation people have with crossdressing. I may be putting my head on a chopping block and getting criticized by many here on the forum, but when I'm not cding and as a male from the outside looking in, I see that some (a lot of us, actually) portray crossdressing as something sexual. I know it makes us feel sexy, or makes us feel like a different person. But it's more than that to some of us, if not, all of us. I don't know, I probably am very wrong about this, but I am actually concerned that this might be a part of the problem. If not, well, all the better for us as a community. I'd like to see us accepted not just as LGBT, but as Trans or just crossdressers.

I agree. And, the last time I took a gender course, I was told that the textbook definition of a crossdresser was simply a person that becomes sexually aroused by wearing clothing of the opposite sex. Anything in the way of desiring to BEING that opposite sex was transgendered/transsexual.

This is automatically confusing because it just makes a crossdresser a fetishist. When I was talking to a close friend about my SO coming out to his family and contemplating coming out to his friends, my friend asked, "I don't understand why he feels a need to do that...isn't that something that should just be on a need to know basis...like in the bedroom."

So, when you think about it as just a fetish it seems almost weird to bring it up in a public context. The fetishist is the crossdresser anything desiring to be female is a transsexual.

This is of course not the case and better books have been written about more of a spectrum of transgenderedness (right word? Did I make up that word?) Where a fetishist is on one end and a transsexual is on the other. There is a lot of grey area in between that many here would probably strongly identify with...crossdressing is sexually appealing because it makes you feel sexy, but you also enjoying expressing your feminine side, etc.

However, on a large scale, this grey area is what is falling in between the cracks with society awareness and you are just stuck with people assuming you are either a fetishist or you're a pre-op TS.

For those assumed as fetishists, many people in society are saying, "Why do I need to know this about you? Shouldn't this just be kept in the bedroom??"

[randumbness]

That's a great idea because everybody knows that there is nothing sexual about being gay.:brolleyes: Being gay is all about liking showtunes and Barbra Streisand concerts.:heehee:

You misunderstood me. I am saying NOTHING about being gay not having to do with sex. It's a SEXUAL ORIENTATION, and people accept that people have their own sexual orientations. You have to understand though, that not all trans people or crossdressers are necessarily gay or lesbian. Crossdressing is more than orientation, and more than turning one's self on. It could also be a means to escape the gender binary we don't fit in, or a means to feel happy about our appearance/state of mind.

[kathie225]

I have read this thread with considerable interest. Finding a modicum of "truth" in all the replies, indicates to me that the answer is convoluted, varying with the prejudices of the objector. People are uncomfortable with the ambiguity that cd'ing presents. As noted frequently perceptions are frustrated and socializing becomes strained. There also may be a reaction to a degree of "secrecy" where the cd'er seeks to pass as a woman and hide their true identity. This is a very rich field for speculation.
Yet there are times when cd'ing is very acceptable socially. Masquerade themed parties or Halloween events finds many men cd'ing without reproof. Wish we had a solid answer.

[Eleanor M]

Maybe non cds think that cds might trick them into thinking they are genuine girls and try and become their girlfriends?

[Aprilrain]

The world is so PC now that it's socially unacceptable as well as illegal to discriminate against gays. Why? Because gays spent the last 3 decades or so fighting for their rights. As a group they have the advantage of being fairly numerous. Until TGs start coming out more and showing the world that we are normal people the world will only have preconceived notions and sensationalized talkshows to base their assumptions on. Everyone has assumptions.

[Pythos]

I will say this. It really irks me when those groups that were persecuted, end up PERSECUTING others.

Ever noticed how that happens.

African Americans are REALLY Homophobic and openly so, yet they themselves were persecuted as the gays were until recently


Women were not even considered equal human until about the 20s, yet look how many treat us CDs, or alternative males.

Why is there this lousy phenomena.

I know they struggled, but does that mean they have to impose that struggle onto other minority groups?

As to one of the posts here, one person's image of a S**t, and a person that has pride in their look and body can vary from person to person. It is much like the "dress your age" statements I see sometimes. I am sorry but much of the stuff I wear can be considered "s**ty, but, I assure you I am not one of those, I just like to show my body and build, most obvious my eyes legs and butt ;).

Now onto the saying " I am not gay". I say this all the time. Why? Is it because I dislike homosexuals? Is it because I am a homophobe?

Let me pose this question. For the average person here, would you want to be called a Goth when you are not? Something tells me, though you don't have any dislike of Goths, you would feel uncomfortable with being identified as such....because you are not one.

I say I am not gay for two reasons. A) because I AM NOT. and B) because I want to shatter the image that CDs or guys with different styles prefer the intimate company of men.

I just wish we silly humans would stop picking on, and persecuting others just becasuse of Harmless differences, AND get on the case of those that present a violent image, like thugs, and gangsters, and crooked business men, and lousy politicians :)

[Ozark]

"There are strange thing done in the midnight sun, by the men who moil for gold" (breast);
And OUR bathroom mirrors see rare sights;
but the rarest they ever did see;
was the night I first found my mother's bra;
at the tender age of three!

There are strange things down in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.
The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.

The Northern Lights have seen queer sites, but the queerest they ever did see
Was that night on the marge of Lake LeBarge of me in mommy's bra and panty.

[Pythos]

And, the last time I took a gender course, I was told that the textbook definition of a crossdresser was simply a person that becomes sexually aroused by wearing clothing of the opposite sex. Anything in the way of desiring to BEING that opposite sex was transgendered/transsexual.


I REALLY dislike this sort of thing. First off, what is wrong with being a fetishist? Why is it so "evil". As far as keeping it in the bedroom, why don't we all just wear burkhas? Why do I need to know your actual gender? I find people that say stuff like "keep it in the bedroom" when it comes to personal style to be very limited thinkers. They are the same kind of people that say "legging belong in the gym" or other limiting statements. With that logic JEANS would have stayed in the mines....which is where they orginated from. They were made for heavy and dirty labor...and would not have come about had modern day fabrics been around back in the time of thier design.

As far as that description, it was at a time a factor for me, but now it is just how I like to look. I get "turned" on by an attractive female showing interest in me, doubly so if I am in my prefered styles. :P

[Kelly DeWinter]

I agree with pretty much everything Lori said. We don't have a history of anyone carrying the TG torch. Media portrayals are mainly negative, whilst the gay community are for more vocal, militant and well organised and have been since way back all the way to Stonewall and before. Look at the recent case in the UK press about the MI6 guy who was found dead in a locked trunk. The papers were all over the fact that he had a £15,000 collection of women's designerwear (lucky git) linking him to a sex game that went wrong, therefore he's a pervert. Also what we do is very often in secret so it's not like people are used to seeing crossdressed men. Our TS sisters don't have this fallback and I bet they encounter lots of prejudice as a result, but that's more explicable to some people as they see it as a medical condition.
So do we get together and present a proud front? Takes a lot of guts. I'd want to be more out and proud, but right now I'm way too much of a coward and worried about what other people think. I know that's wrong and I do want to fight the good fight once I start finding my predicured strappy sandal-wearing feet again. I guess chipping away at prejudice, picking people up for trans-phobic comments is a good start


Not true this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_people contains a list of TG Sisters who have publicly paved the way for the openess we enjoy today, the FACT that this site exists, is testamony to the Freedom and openess we enjoy today, in Baltimore there are at least 4 groups of sisters who meet monthly to dine and dance in resturants. There are clubs we can go to, that did not exist 15 years ago . Tri Ess meetings are held nationwide openly in hotels, we have National and Local conventions. College students openly goto class dress how they want.

The issue is that we CHOOSE not to be out in public, yes there are people who look at us od, and there are places and times it's not safe to go out alone. But the truth is the police and govmnt officials are required to treat up with repect. Yes there are biggots and there will be, but it is getting better ALL of the time, because slowly we are CHOOSING to be in the open. I see crossdressing an not much different then someone who wants to be Goth, Dress as a texan cowboy or dress in a 3 Piece suit.

The ONLY reason that there is a medical classification for gender identity is because sometimes people want to have medical insurance to pay for therapy or are looking to transition, and the insurance companies will not pay unless they have the ability to check a box on a medical insurance form.



DocRS makes a great point here. Once we have accepted ourselves, when others get to know us they are quite likely to feel differently. I think we have seen numerous examples of this in posts to this forum.
Someone referred to "Hollywood" as the frame of reference. I hope that isn't so. If anything, films like Psycho, Dressed to Kill and the Silence of the Lambs reinforced the image of CD's as "perv's, and maybe that is part of the problem.

its the same Hollywood image as postmen being psycotic killers.


Hey everyone. after reading some of the replies to this thread and my own. I got thinking. Why do we have to Lable everything? Surely if it wasn't labeled then it wouldn't be considered wrong or weird?

Hugs Kalyan x

Lables help identify and are good for a lot of things, if you don't believe me peel the lables off of all of the canned goods in your kitchen and then try to cook for a couple of weeks.


Two problems with your post:

1. When people say "Oh, if you're a crossdresser you must be gay." That's putting BOTH CDing and being gay down. It's basically say, "Ew, you where a dress? Ew, I bet you're gay too."
2. GAY PEOPLE DON'T SPREAD DISEASE, PEOPLE IN GENERAL SPREAD DISEASE. I don't know if you are familiar with biology or science at all, but being straight doesn't mean you are clean. You can get an STD just as easily from a straight person as you can from a gay person. So, yes, crossdressers can spread diseases too. Please don't think that your feminine attire acts as a personal body condom.

Well said!


It's stupid that Gay is Ok, but Crossdressing is not. They say if you crossdress you are gay, so in theory, shouldn't it be okay? I'm lucky enough to have a girlfriend who is okay with me doing it because she knows its just an article of clothing, and she realizes that womens clothes are so much better with the material used. I don't know why its social unaccepted, but it should be. Gay people (no offense) can spread diseases, crossdressers do not transmit anything other than great recommendations.

Please don't perpetuate false sterotypes.


I have read this thread with considerable interest. Finding a modicum of "truth" in all the replies, indicates to me that the answer is convoluted, varying with the prejudices of the objector. People are uncomfortable with the ambiguity that cd'ing presents. As noted frequently perceptions are frustrated and socializing becomes strained. There also may be a reaction to a degree of "secrecy" where the cd'er seeks to pass as a woman and hide their true identity. This is a very rich field for speculation.
Yet there are times when cd'ing is very acceptable socially. Masquerade themed parties or Halloween events finds many men cd'ing without reproof. Wish we had a solid answer.

See above


The world is so PC now that it's socially unacceptable as well as illegal to discriminate against gays. Why? Because gays spent the last 3 decades or so fighting for their rights. As a group they have the advantage of being fairly numerous. Until TGs start coming out more and showing the world that we are normal people the world will only have preconceived notions and sensationalized talkshows to base their assumptions on. Everyone has assumptions.

Well said !

[Pythos]

Well here is something we all can do.

The next time someone of our ilk that is maligned by some official, or is fired from their job, or in some way has a negative thing happen, then almost everyone of the comunity protest in their name.

Right, that is not likely to happen. But if it did, things would change.

Frankly though I am wondering sexual discrimination is being allowed. Why are there sexist dress codes being able to be made, why are there sexist rules appearance perpetuated.

Why is it a woman can wear pants, but a man cannot wear a skirt? That is the very definition of sexual discrimination. It is the limiting of someone based solely on their sex.

I will be honest, I discriminate. I am guilty of discrimination. I discriminate when it comes to the sex of the person I wish to be intimate with. But that is about it. Race, creed, financial back round, don't matter to me. I can be picky when it comes to the person's overall health, and to a point fitness, as well as mental stability too.

Those should be the only way people should be discriminated against when it comes to a harmless, victimless characteristic such as the clothing and style we choose to wear.


. Gay people (no offense) can spread diseases, crossdressers do not transmit anything other than great recommendations.

Um. Some news McFly!!!. SEX spreads disease!! Promiscuous sex is a leading cause of the spread of disease. That is gay sex, hetero sex, sex with sheep (ew), oral, anal, vaginal....ALL forms of intercourse in a sexual manner is a great way of contracting a disease you will wish you never had.

I am astonished at how many people I knew were messing around, "getting laid" and "hooking up", and how many either had to drop out of school due to pregnancy or disease. I am even more astonished to hear of people STILL doing this despite the rotten times we live in.

But, and let me make this nice and sparkly clear, Homosexuals are not the only humans that spread disease. I really hope you do not think in the manner you seem to convey, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you miss typed.

[Shananigans]

I REALLY dislike this sort of thing. First off, what is wrong with being a fetishist? Why is it so "evil". As far as keeping it in the bedroom, why don't we all just wear burkhas? Why do I need to know your actual gender? I find people that say stuff like "keep it in the bedroom" when it comes to personal style to be very limited thinkers. They are the same kind of people that say "legging belong in the gym" or other limiting statements. With that logic JEANS would have stayed in the mines....which is where they orginated from. They were made for heavy and dirty labor...and would not have come about had modern day fabrics been around back in the time of thier design.

As far as that description, it was at a time a factor for me, but now it is just how I like to look. I get "turned" on by an attractive female showing interest in me, doubly so if I am in my prefered styles. :P

lol, Pythos, I'm not saying being a fetishist is wrong. Lawd knows I have plenty.

But, I'm not about to open up to mom and dad and say, "Mom. Dad. I'm going to come out to you. I like being tied up and light asphyxiation."

Time and place. Time and place. Need to know basis.

What time? Sex time. What place? Bedroom. What basis do you need to know? Maybe if we're going to bone.

Some fetishists WANT it to stay in the bedroom because that's where they like to be anyway haha

My point is that to Some crossdressing Is a fetish and perhaps they are perfectly comfortable with not telling mom and dad that they like to dress up and jerk off in panties. I'm perfectly fine with the fact that it will be a cold day in hell when my parents ever figure out my bedroom antics.

But, for the overwhelming majority of CS it's more than just that (a fetish) and therefore the "textbook definition" should be expanded upon as more than just a fetish.

[Stephanie Anne]

That's right. ...most CD's would never tell their real names here. And don't forget the "headless crossdresers" some of that is lack of makeup skills or beards, but some is also shame.

Yup thats it, right here buried in the middle of page two. We are a community of people hiding behind curtains and closed doors. There is no easy answer to that and I am not going to even try.

The difference between us and the gay community is that the gay community said "ENOUGH!" and stopped hiding in plain sight. They organized and gained pride enough to say "I am somebody and I am gay".

We, on the other hand are stuck behind the feeling that it is not the time to come out for fear, shame, or some combination of other reasons. Funny thing is the world as a whole is ready to start accepting trans rights but we seem to be the biggest opponents and the largest hurdle.

I have no disrespect meant to anyone who has to be secretive for safety. I know plenty of TS who hide even post transition. More power to them. I only say what I say because we have a history (gay rights, women's right, African American rights) that prove what can be done when we say enough of the hiding and enough of the fear of being harmed.

I can only ever speak for myself and while I don't make it known in day to day business, I am very out about my transition and have no fear of being found out. That's not to say I don't avoid confronting people. There are many times where I go throughout the day and nobody knows or cares that i am trans. I simply do not deny if asked.

This is my opinion on why it is accepted to be gay and not to be any flavor of transgendered. Even if only 2% of the world was transgendered, That is still over 6 million in the US alone. Something to think about because there are probably more than 2%

[Lucy_Bella]

Clay,
It isn't so much soceity accepts Gay people more so than following the law.. Gays fought for that right, I have asked myself that question many times before I opened my mind and allowed Gay friends into my narrowed world.. I can honestly say I am straight there is no doubt about that because I have many chances to test the sexual preferance water.. It doesn't appeal to me.

I answered this before I started straying off topic because in talking with a Gay friend I have found they have simular issues as us in acceptance still in the public eye ..It isn't as acceptable as many may think it is even today being Gay..He values my friendship because of the need to talk about the frustrations the world offers him and the mislead beliefs of his lifestyle.. No body asked to be Gay as I am sure you already know and although there have been improvements I still think it is strongly mis understood..

[girlalex]

Let's not forget that gays have fought long and hard for acceptance. (yes, I am aware that Drag Queens led the fight at Stonewall). In the states, gays only recently won the right to be open about their sexuality in the military while fighting for the very people who would prefer them to be invisible.

In the TG world, many are often more comfortable in the closet. If you want change, you have to commit to being out there in the open and risk the backlash. As the gays have said "Invisibility = Death"

Exactly, we have yet to earn good reputation and seek equality and respect. to do this we have to start from the basics and that is to simply start coming out to the world. well, not exactly simple, but when enough of us come out others will follow. we just don't have enough political power. but its changing. If anyone didn't know Candy magazine would soon be the first official transsexual fasion magazine. so i guess its changing for a good start:) by the way Happy New Years everyone.

[panda]

Takes a lot of guts.

Thank you Debs.

It's easy to be gay :) Society accepts gay people, but they struggle a bit with us. It's only a matter of time

[LilSissyStevie]

You misunderstood me. I am saying NOTHING about being gay not having to do with sex. It's a SEXUAL ORIENTATION, and people accept that people have their own sexual orientations. You have to understand though, that not all trans people or crossdressers are necessarily gay or lesbian. Crossdressing is more than orientation, and more than turning one's self on. It could also be a means to escape the gender binary we don't fit in, or a means to feel happy about our appearance/state of mind.

I get what you are saying but I don't think it works because, for a large percentage and maybe even the majority of crossdressers, it IS just a sexual turn on. It isn't any more than that. You can't say that they don't represent "us" because they do if you're talking about crossdressers in the aggregate. The fact is we are all in this for different reasons and there wouldn't be much to talk about on these forums if it were otherwise. If we can't even accept each other, then how can we expect "society" to do it.

[Shananigans]

Thank you Debs.

It's easy to be gay :) Society accepts gay people, but they struggle a bit with us. It's only a matter of time

Really???
http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/wheremarriage.htm

It's so easy and so accepted that they can't have all of the rights and liberties as any other couple, huh?

Or, maybe we should keep turning a blind eye to the hate crime on gays that continue (turn on the news for more details on a recent hate crime where people were tortured for being gay).

Yeah, super easy.

[Leslie Langford]

Kelly, I get where you're coming from, but clayfish has a valid point..

Crossdressers, gay or not get much more BS from Joe Public than an obvious gay man...

I have my good days and those not so good, as far as passing.. I've had both ends of the spectrum in responses, thankfully none of them required the usage of my 38+p rounds..

One woman in particular, early on a Saturday morning at Riverfest in Chattanooga, STARED at me for a good 2 minutes without breaking eye contact..
I was wearing a very nice light pink chiffon dress, a bit below the knee, some white open toe strappy high heels and I "thought" I was very presentable.. Obviously not, to her anyway..

I feel that had I been an obvious gay person at the same location dressed "gender correct" that she would not have stared.

It shook me up so much, I canceled my plans, which was just to wander around the Riverfest, and drove 1.5 hrs back home.

Now for today's serving of "tough love": I would hope that during that long drive back, you firmly resolved that you would never, ever allow another person to exercise that degree of power over you.

If someone stares at me so obviously and so rudely - whether I am in drab or en femme, I look them square in the eye and stare back just as intently until one of us blinks. Usually, it is not me. Such boors do not merit the respect of being treated in any other way, and often that is the only way they will actually "get it".

[NicoleScott]

Crossdressing is wearing clothing usually intended for the opposite sex. No cause or reason or motive or drive or expression is required. I guess we have the right to make up our own definitions, but it just makes communication difficult.

Yes, gay is OK because they did a better PR job and worked for acceptance. So we are encouraged to get out there and get acceptance for us all, even though some of us will lose jobs and wives. Maybe those doing the encouraging don't have any risk. But wait a minute: if you are a fetishistic crossdresser, stay in the bedroom where you belong. Oh, and if your style is over-the-top, don't go to the mall. Gives us all a bad name. You may go out in public only if you meet certain standards of dress.
I wonder if gg's who see other gg's with skirts too short or heels too high or lips too red chastise them for their display of bad taste in public. "You're giving all of us girls a bad name". Probably not.
I don't remember hearing similar talk in the gay movement. You're too gay or not gay enough. No wonder we are where we are. Some crossdressers cannot accept other crossdressers.

[Kelly Blaine]

In the TG world, many are often more comfortable in the closet. If you want change, you have to commit to being out there in the open and risk the backlash. As the gays have said "Invisibility = Death"

Yes!

[Shananigans]

I wonder if gg's who see other gg's with skirts too short or heels too high or lips too red chastise them for their display of bad taste in public. "You're giving all of us girls a bad name". Probably not.
I don't remember hearing similar talk in the gay movement. You're too gay or not gay enough. No wonder we are where we are. Some crossdressers cannot accept other crossdressers.

I've seen haters in every group. I haven't been to one party where I wasn't dragged into a corner by a group of girl to talk smack about some other girl at a party who is wearing something or doing something heinous. I've also been around a few gays that don't like the whole "flamer" image and think that these people turn being gay into a comedic performance.

Haters gonna hate.

[LilSissyStevie]

I don't remember hearing similar talk in the gay movement. You're too gay or not gay enough. No wonder we are where we are. Some crossdressers cannot accept other crossdressers.

Actually, the first group to get "kicked out" of the gay movement were androphillic tgirls. There has always been an division between the majority "straight acting" crowd and effeminate "flamers." Then there are the leathermen... There is always some subgroup to throw under the bus when its to your benefit.

[ChanDelle]

I'm not sure it's really OK to be gay. I think most of the public just tolerate it now. We're a bit more fringe and sometimes harder to meld in. Am I wrong?

ChanDelle

[GaleWarning]

Browsing the threads today, I believe I have stumbled upon another reason why crossdressers have a hard time being accepted ...

Too many posters on this very site (crossdressers.com) use the salutation "girl" or "gurl", failing to understand and acknowledge that there are crossdressers on this site who are MALES, who like to crossdress.

Today I DEMAND from all of you that I be accepted for who I am, a MAN who likes to crossdress.

Thanks to Tamara for trying to insist that posters refrain from the use of "girl" and "gurl".

A finger to all those who fail to take heed.

Apologies may be pm-ed to me.

[Genivieve]

I'm not sure it's really OK to be gay. I think most of the public just tolerate it now. We're a bit more fringe and sometimes harder to meld in. Am I wrong?

ChanDelle

It's funny but that whole gay's being able to meld in idea was the cause of much paranoia in the 50's and 60's.
They did a lot of sex studies obviously one of the most famous was Kinsey's findings. They discovered that sexuality could be flexible and that gays could hide among us.

In a good and bad way being gay allows you to blend in...and Like it or not being gay especially in big cities is not a big deal in fact in certain fields like art and film it helps. I can say this for a fact from experience. In the 2 schools I attended for bachelors and Masters at least 25 percent if not more of the faculty was gay or Lesbian and it was not a deal at all.

Crossdressing freaks people out. I freak myself out sometimes. I stopped dressing for years once I started looking too masculine. I felt ridiculous seeing that image in the mirror. It's like seeing a two headed beast both man and woman, which is hard to accept in one's mind.

Maybe we're the new femme fatale. In film the femme fatale always has to die because she embodies a female's sexuality and male's ability to assert himself.

[Pythos]

I don't know about you Mrogredick, but I for one would like to live. So I will just give the "new feme fatal" a pass thank you very much :)

[VanessaVW]

Doesn't it come down to this? The average person in the street thinks were ALL PERVS?

And, why shouldn't they? Considering what we hear about CDs in the media? When I started dressing, I was pretty sure that CDs were all pervs and I must be one SICK PUPPY!

Since then, I've actually MET some of u. After online communications here. Nary a perv in the lot!

If the average person could actually get to KNOW a CD, I think MOST would feel quite differently!

Good point, Sherry. On another thread, I said that the movie Silence of the Lambs was a setback for me in the early 90's. We didn't have the internet and I wasn't aware of any support system or any other means of finds others out there like us. Of course the villan was making a dress out of women's skins.

If Hollywood got on board, things would change quickly. The television show Cold Case has been friendly to folks like us in a few episodes.

[Sarah Doepner]

How many here say "I'm not Gay" because they dislike homosexuals and how many say "I'm not Gay" because it's usually the first question asked? Despite what we think and the history we know, crossdressers are still a relatively unknown commodity. The people doing the questioning are probing our world using the only tools they know. The second question is usually something like "Do you want to become a woman?". When we say "No I don't want to become a woman." it's not taken as misogyny, but it doesn't answer their question. Then they may ask if you are a Drag Queen like RuPaul. It goes on and on until they finally dig deep enough in their experience to find an image they can be comfortable with. Maybe they end up with Eddie Izzard or Grae Phillips or even Frank Marino, something, anything, that is closer to what a "normal" crossdresser wants to achieve.

The question needs to be about what we can do to create the kind of cultural imagery that permits people to come up with realistic questions so we don't have to say things that can be offensive or misleading. I'm still trying to build my courage so I can help with this, but I know I can't personally wait for Hollywood or some outside entity to fix it for me. It's hard.

[Shananigans]

Browsing the threads today, I believe I have stumbled upon another reason why crossdressers have a hard time being accepted ...

Too many posters on this very site (crossdressers.com) use the salutation "girl" or "gurl", failing to understand and acknowledge that there are crossdressers on this site who are MALES, who like to crossdress.

Today I DEMAND from all of you that I be accepted for who I am, a MAN who likes to crossdress.

Thanks to Tamara for trying to insist that posters refrain from the use of "girl" and "gurl".

A finger to all those who fail to take heed.

Apologies may be pm-ed to me.

A lot of people on here have girl names on their avatar. As for salutations to those people...well, you do the math...