Why are we so afraid of being thought of as Gay? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

DaphneGrey

01-14-2011, 08:59 AM

I have been reading a few threads over the past couple of days. I cant help but notice the prevailing homophobic attitudes. Not bigotry mind you please do not take this the wrong way. It seems that many in our community cant make any type of comment on any thing without working into the post "I am not gay".

Now I understand that most who crossdress are not. I understand when coming out to someone, anyone the question comes up and needs an answer. I get that and have been there.

If you are out and living your life even part time. Interacting with friends, salespeople, waiters, and such or anybody else for that matter. You must have gotten over the o my God what are people going to think attitude, Yes? Or even here on the form. Is it really important to spout of " I am not Gay" every other sentence?

I was recently hanging out with some friends of mine who happen to be Gay and the conversation came up about why Gay folk don't really care for Heterosexual Male to Female crossdressers. The answer " They are always going on about not being Gay. I understand that they are not but it gets kind of tiring hearing it, and sometimes it is offensive! If they were really comfortable with themselves they wouldn't need to broadcast it all over the place" When I asked if that was his only reason said "for me that is real pet peeve"

I should tell you a little about myself for those who don't know me. I am one hundred percent out. I identify as Queer\Gender queer \ and Trans gender. i am happily married and not unfaithful. But find men attractive and swoon over the respectful attention of gentlemen. Just a little back round about me.

I don't want to come off as attacking anybody or any thing like that. If you can walk into a room full of people in a dress does it really matter what they think?

Any and all thoughts would be appreciated.

Traci Elizabeth

01-14-2011, 09:16 AM

I too would question why anyone would need to clarify that they are not gay unless perhaps a gay individual is making a pass at them and even then, a simple, "sorry, I am not interested" would be suffice.

Do we go around proclaiming we are not this or that, or my breasts are real not fake, etc. I agree that if we are comfortable in who we are, why do we have to clarify ANYTHING about what we are or are not?

I think it is called "self-esteem," and being confident and comfortable in who you are.

Michelle 51

01-14-2011, 10:00 AM

I don't go arount spouting off I'm not gay but I've had to assure my wife of that for the simple reason that men who dress as women in movies etc ie:The birdcage, Prescilla Queen of the desert and on and on are portrayed as gay transvestites or gay transexuals looking for men and that is what a lot of people think we are.Most of us aren't and if you are fine but who wants a label that don't fit.No disrespect to gays is intended when we clarify the misconception that just because I dress as a women I must be gay.I know a lot of straight TG and TS girls.

Amanda22

01-14-2011, 10:21 AM

Deanna B

01-14-2011, 10:57 AM

hi Daphne Grey . you are so right when you look at the world and see the big picture being gay or crossdressing it is not that important as long as you are HAPPY .
wow i am writeing to you in i think in the USA love deanna . :love:

Sarah Doepner

01-14-2011, 10:59 AM

Daphne, thanks for an excellent posting and one that is really important for discussion. Sexual preference and gender identification are separate things. I identify as female. My sexual preference happens to be for females. The two are unrelated. Yes, we need to reassure SOs of our sexual preference when coming out of the closet, but other than that, the "but I'm not gay" statements just sound offensive. I think adding that qualification in conversation is an indication of insecurity.

Amanda has hit my thoughts on the nose. We spend a lot of our time and energy defining ourselves by what we are not rather than what we are. The GLB movement made it's best progress when they began defining themselves as normal people who just happen to have a same sex attraction. We have not made that step yet and spend a lot of time on the defense saying, I'm not Gay, I don't want to become a woman, I'm not a drag queen, I'm not like Norman Bates, etc., etc., etc.,

Zoe Preston

01-14-2011, 11:14 AM

Perhaps if your thread was entitled "Why are we so afraid of being wrongly stereotyped" then you might have answered your own question :)

I can't say that I've noticed the issue as you describe it but like just about every other married crossdresser I've been asked point blank by my wife if I was Gay and related the conversation on this forum. I can most relate to those posters whose circumstances are most similar to mine so I'm OK with people stating whether they are married/single gay/straight/bi/retired/still-deciding or whatever.

Have the comments you have seen been perjorative against the Gay posters or 'bashing' them in any way? Because I'd agree with you that that should be dealt with immediately.

I don't think that you can criticise people for stating which particular crossdressing pigeonhole they fit in when you yourself have told us which boxes you would tick on your CD application form :D And that isn't a criticism of you, it simply illustrates the fact that we all have a view of which pigeonhole we fit in so-to-speak and we tend to correct people if they make a mistaken assumption.

Finally - and before this morphs into a Seinfeld episode (Not that there's anything wrong with that) isn't your friends comment about hetersexual CDers "They are always going on about not being Gay" a sweeping generalisation? I would have thought that the Gay community has spent too long fighting against stereotyping to resort to using it?

Zoe

Sophie_C

01-14-2011, 11:28 AM

It's RIDICULOUSLY easy to understand:

1. Many, many crossdressers are married to women.
2. Many, many crossdressers married to women are bisexual (or at least have thoughts that way)
3. Unlike your situation, most people genuinuely believe in 2010 that there is no such thing as a male bisexual. They see it as a stepping stone in coming to terms with one's latent homosexuality.
4. It is also well-known that, unlike men who generally like women who are bisexual, women find it pretty much the ultimate turn-off, and the vast majority on a primal level will never be with a man like that.
5. Also, there is still a rather common belief that anyone who is bisexual is promiscuous.
6. Therefore, they must deny anything that can be interpreted as an indication of homosexuality, since it threatens their marriage.

Look, I do understand you've got a lovely understanding wife, but you're the exception to the rule. You will find that most open crossdressers who are not in a relationship tend to not care if they're being called or presumed gay or not.

And finally, I know it will freak a whole lot of people out when I say this, but it's most often the loudest people that are the ones the most in denial. It's like the anti-gay politicans who are found in gay bars. Someone who is 1000%, girls-only and just cross-dresses for kicks won't even have the whole "gay or not gay" thing on their mind. But, if someone is struggling with the idea, they're going to be projecting that struggle everywhere, since they're really telling THEMSELVES that "I'm not gay... (sure, right????)" when they're tellng it to everyone around them.

But, back to the point, I believe there's a lot more bisexual people out there than people believe, especially in this community, and I also believe it IS possible (at one time in history, this wasn't a crazy thought) for a man to be bisexual, contrary to popular belief. I do believe a lot of women's husband's here are rightfully concerned of their marriage due to this popular belief that a man cannot be bisexual, so they have to defend it. So, maybe your wife should start talking to more wives about this, and then you won't hear people defending themselves so much.

Nick2Nikki

01-14-2011, 11:39 AM

Personally I end up saying I'm not gay, simply because that's one of the first questions asked of me when someone learns I'm a transvestite. It's a common stereotype that most crossdressers are gay (a stereotype that really makes no sense to me), so it's usually just a case of trying to dispel a stereotype about crossdressers. If I'm not asked about my sexual orientation, I don't tell.

Pythos

01-14-2011, 11:45 AM

Gina X

01-14-2011, 12:24 PM

I hope this simple explanation helps you understand that most of us are far from homophobic. Perhaps we are stereophobic (new word:P)

"Stereophobic" Why would you not like two channel music ?? LOL

Debglam

01-14-2011, 12:56 PM

You know, I think that in an intimate conversation with your SO or someone else, it is one thing - you want to be honest and clear what your sexual preference is. I think generally speaking, and I believe that is what the OP is asking, is why the denial?

I think that most CD'ers are "indoctrinated" as children when they first start to grasp these feelings that the desire to crossdress, or any other gender confusion means that you MUST be gay. I don't think that most of us at that age can separate the two ourselves. I mean that is what you are being told, the only media portrayals of men dressed as women are drag queens (or psychopaths), etc. Being bombarded with this misinformation I think we all question our sexual preference around this time. Frankly, I think it takes a very long time before we start to "get" that there is a difference between sexual preference and gender identity. Even now I think that is the general assumption outside of the TG community. Once we finally figure out who we are, assuming we are not homosexual, I think that the "I'm not gay" kneejerk reaction still exists. I think as we all get more comfortable in our own skin, this will go away.

With that said, I can see how the LGB community would find it offensive and I won't go there unless it is directly on point. The denial can be taken that there is something wrong with "being gay." We need more unity between our communities and we should be sensitive to even slight offenses. I have no idea what it is like to be homosexual but I do know what it is like to be a small child with the weight of the world on your shoulders. We should build from our common experiences. :2c:

Emme

01-14-2011, 01:11 PM

When I recently went hair shopping, I was asked if I was gay. My answer to her was, as a lesbian I would love to bite you on your butt. She really liked that!

I told the sales woman I was a cd. She said that until I spoke, she thought I was one really tall woman.

When I asked how many CDs came in dressed, she said, I was one of the very very few. She added that she sell a lot of wigs to men. She is always told that they buy them for their girl friend/wives.

docrobbysherry

01-14-2011, 01:12 PM

Like Pythos says:

-------I hope this simple explanation helps you understand that most of us are far from homophobic. Perhaps we are stereophobic (new word:P)

All blacks can dance and play basketball!

All Hispanics work is manual labor!

All Asians drive badly!

All Canadians say, "Eh"!

Do U think ANY of these folks likes these stereotypes? Then, why should CDs like being thot of as gay? :brolleyes:

Personally, if folks think I'm gay because I dress, that's FINE! Better than being thot of as some sort of creepy perv!:doh:

GaleWarning

01-14-2011, 01:45 PM

For the same reason I don't like being called Japanese. Or why I don't like being called Itallian. How about being called a girl? Or being called a cat?

I don't like being called gay because, I am not gay.

If I were not Goth, would I want to be called such?

If I were gay, then I would not want to be called hetero.

I hope this simple explanation helps you understand that most of us are far from homophobic. Perhaps we are stereophobic (new word:P)

I perceive the seeds of a great comedy sketch here ... along the lines of ... A journalist is questioning a male MP here in NZ.

"Mr C, I believe you bought an expensive pair of Italian women's classic pumps whilst you were in London recently at the tax payers' expense."

C: "I paid for the trip and the shoes myself, they were cheap Chinese running shoes, and I bought them for my partner, Peter. Now leave me alone. You are only picking on me because I am gay."

Mr C does not wish to be perceived as one who squanders large sums of other people's money, nor as a crossdresser, but plays the "I am gay" card to deflect personal criticism.

This harks back to a thread I started recently. It's OK to be gay, but not OK to be a crossdresser.

Stephanie Anne

01-14-2011, 01:50 PM

No clue. I like manwiches so I have no idea aside from crossdressing does not instantly mean you are not some homophobic bigot?

DebsUK

01-14-2011, 01:50 PM

Lorileah

01-14-2011, 01:54 PM

I am not....really going to get too deep in this as it has been discussed many time before here. My biggest issue with CD's spouting "I am not gay" is that they then wonder why the gay community won't help them out.

Saying "I am not gay" is appropriate when you are asked if you are and if you want to date or if your doctor needs to know. Telling people at a restaurant isn't.

I was recently hanging out with some friends of mine who happen to be Gay and the conversation came up about why Gay folk don't really care for Heterosexual Male to Female crossdressers. The answer " They are always going on about not being Gay. I understand that they are not but it gets kind of tiring hearing it, and sometimes it is offensive! If they were really comfortable with themselves they wouldn't need to broadcast it all over the place" When I asked if that was his only reason said "for me that is real pet peeve"

Well if this isn't just so...hypocritical. Somewhere along the line these people told everyone they knew they WERE gay. And I know a good many who broadcast it at every chance. We all don't go around wearing our preference on our sleeves just as many gays don't but this seems sort of elitist. You already said your friends were gay, so either they told you or you are guessing. Now repeating this over and over is annoying and one would wonder if when this happened to them it was more a reinforcement meant for the speaker to convince themselves they really weren't gay.

:sb: education. Maybe repeating we are not gay will someday convince the world...we are not all gay.

AllieSF

01-14-2011, 02:03 PM

Daphne, I have also wondered the same thing. Why does someone feel the need to say that "I am not gay." when no one brought up that subject. I can clearly understand the need to say that when directly asked . or when someone implies that you are gay. Then it is a simple clarification to the true facts. I really don't care what someone calls me as long as they don't call me "Surley"! (or is that Shirley?) I think it just may have something to do with one's own insecurity of who they are and how comfortable or not they are with themselves.

CherryZips

01-14-2011, 02:07 PM

You must have gotten over the o my God what are people going to think attitude, Yes? Or even here on the form. Is it really important to spout of " I am not Gay" every other sentence?

I guess people say it here to give context to what they are saying. We are all giving our experiences from different perspectives. I DO want to know the sexual identity of people so I know how I relate to what they are saying and what it means to me. I understand why people might by coy.

The answer " They are always going on about not being Gay. I understand that they are not but it gets kind of tiring hearing it, and sometimes it is offensive! If they were really comfortable with themselves they wouldn't need to broadcast it all over the place"

Yeah I completely understand that's annoying to hear that from crossdressers. But think of the context of a straight crossdresser and gay people together. Probably in a gay club. It maybe trans friendly but its a gay context and the cd is doing something that society (including much of the LGBT community) considers gay.

4. It is also well-known that, unlike men who generally like women who are bisexual, women find it pretty much the ultimate turn-off, and the vast majority on a primal level will never be with a man like that.

You will find that most open crossdressers who are not in a relationship tend to not care if they're being called or presumed gay or not.

These two points are in conflict. The first I agree with. The second relates to bisexual and gay crossdressers. You can't say women care deeply if a man sleeps with men and then say a het crossdresser doesn't care.

But I agree with your other points. I think the OP is perhaps clouded in their understanding by having such an accepting wife. But I might be wrong.

NathalieX66

01-14-2011, 03:44 PM

I have often used the phrase "My dad says [I don't care if you're gay....just don't wear a dress]. the problem is I'm straight"....which is true.

I actually used this phrase on my guy fb page, with a photo of me. This is/was my attempt to clear the air that transgenderism and sexual preference are mutually exclusive. The average Joe or Jane does not know this.

LaurenMc

01-14-2011, 03:54 PM

i don't think i've ever needed to assert that i wasn't gay, apart from to my wife.

I feel i should also add that i'm not gay. Mind you i do have some serious doubts about some of the men i've slept with

lol!! Best. Post. Ever!!!

Deborah_UK

01-14-2011, 04:01 PM

I feel I should also add that I'm not gay. Mind you I do have some serious doubts about some of the men I've slept with

:lol::rofl::roflmao:

Julogden

01-14-2011, 04:55 PM

Based on associating in person with a very large number of "heterosexual" CD's in my lifetime, I feel that many CD's make a big fuss over being NOT gay to impress SO's, some make a fuss about being straight in an effort to fool themselves.

I fully agree with Sophie C that many (IMO, maybe most) CD's are bisexual, at least in their desires if not actions, and I think that a lot of us have difficulty accepting that in ourselves, so some loudly proclaim to everyone that they are not gay while hiding the fact that they would really like to be sexual with other males.

I've been called gay plenty of times, including by people yelling "faggot" from passing cars a few times. It doesn't hurt, and it's never bothered me, other than to be concerned about the idiots in the car possibly stopping and trying to damage me physically.

Carol

Sallee

01-14-2011, 05:29 PM

I believe the Movie Just like a Woman portrays a cross dresser who is not gay.
Generally I don't worry about what people think

sensually2

01-14-2011, 06:29 PM

Do I have to have a label ?- I like to have sex with some women sometimes. I like to have sex with some men sometimes. I like to dress and feel feminine some times.
Is that ok to leave it at that ?

ela_loves_yaoi

01-14-2011, 06:32 PM

4. It is also well-known that, unlike men who generally like women who are bisexual, women find it pretty much the ultimate turn-off, and the vast majority on a primal level will never be with a man like that.

I have to disagree with your statement about women being turned off by bi guys. If you are unaware, there are communities of (mostly) females who love gay and bisexual men and write stories and make art about them. This genre is called "slash" and in Japan is known as "yaoi" or "boys love" and is extremely popular, particularly among Japanese animation fans. Kirk/Spock is the fictional pairing that is considered to have started slash, back when the original Star Trek was on.

Fans of this genre have many websites dedicated to their interest in creating pairings out of fictional characters (from tv, books, movies, etc) and even from real people like actors. There are also many books and comics about these gay and bisexual men. As a GG who loves slash and yaoi, I should know, because I have a sizable collection of Japanese yaoi comics! In the US, there is even an annual convention dedicated solely to yaoi. Japan has similar events and I'm pretty sure some other countries do as well.

Yaoi has grown significantly in popularity, as more comic artists and writers from all over the world release their own books about gay and bisexual men. When I first got into it 10 years ago, there was not as much information or published material, but I feel it's safe to say that has multiplied ten-fold in America. Look in the comics and manga (Japanese comics) section of any bookstore. There are hundreds of comics labeled yaoi or boys love, many sealed in plastic wrap!

It might not be a totally mainstream opinion, but there are many, many women who are interested in or obsessed with romantic and sexual relationships between men.

Barbara Dugan

01-14-2011, 07:10 PM

People think I am gay and you know they are right:)

01-14-2011, 07:26 PM

i'm so gay and don't care who know's it and i'm Canadian "Eh"!

Kaz

01-14-2011, 07:34 PM

I am not "afraid" that I might be thought of as gay at all. I have some great friends who are, and I know I am not. However, some of our CD community are, as you would expect statistically, and so I don't see any problem when the situation suggests it of stating my sexual preferences.

For those who are not CD, and definately for our SOs, there is a concern out there that being CD means you are gay. When we clearly are not, I see no problem with saying so. If I were gay, I would happily proclaim so - I suspect that my wife would rather I were gay rather than a hetero CD!

It is a sad state of affairs where, in a situation where the boundaries can be blurred, to state that "I am not gay" is seen as homophobic. To take the oint about positive verus negative statements, maybe we should say "I am heterosexual" instead. I happen not to like seafood that much... When faced with a choice of seafood in a restaurant, I will quite easily say "I am afraid I don't like seafood". It is a statement of fact... maybe, in order not to offend those who like seafood and who may be offended by people coming out in the open so forcefully on such an issue, I should say "actually I like a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k...etc.." and just omit "seafood"... I suspect I would then get asked... "and how about seafood?".

For the record... I am not gay. I just like dressing up as and impersonating women. I like to experience as closely as I can what it would be like to be a woman (and yes, if I could do childbirth that would be good too). I also like me being a guy who is very turned on by women. I have no desire to have surgery to transition fully, though I understand why people do. I am not gay, though I understand those that are. I am just me... and trying to figure out who "me" is requires me to make statements and question things...

I am not afraid to be thought of as gay... but others could be afraid, or at least be concerned, that I were.

So... I am not "not gay". I am heterosexual... I like to have sexual relationships with women and I am not sexually attracted towards men...

But then when fully in Kaz mode it gets more complicated!

Angela Dressing

01-14-2011, 09:02 PM

I think that is a good explaination as to why some of us would and do try to point out that we are not gay.

busker

01-14-2011, 09:32 PM

It might not be a totally mainstream opinion, but there are many, many women who are interested in or obsessed with romantic and sexual relationships between men.

And I suspect , there are a lot of guys who like lesbian movies, but probably wouldn't admit it. I don't watch gay movies, they don't interest me in the least, but I do like a good lesbian movie. "Bound" and "Imagine me and you" are too very opposite and good films, one a crime film, one a coming out , feel good movie.
Pehaps the time will come when there are "crossdressing clubs" just there are gay clubs and then CDs will have a place to go and not have to worry about labels and perhaps not feeling at ease in the gay/lesbian clubs.
Where are the wealthy crossdressers to starts some clubs? Maybe a government grant? A novel idea instead of studying horney toads, eh?

2SpeedTranny

01-14-2011, 10:54 PM

There was a time when I worried about this. And to be sure, some people thought it. Then I had a stunning revelation: what other people think of me has no bearing on my life. I know, right?

People make judgments about other people every single day. You see people in the grocery store or the mall or the stadium, and thoughts pop into your head. Does it really matter to them what you think? Of course it doesn't.

So why all the fear about the opinions of people who simply don't matter to you anyway?

And I suspect , there are a lot of guys who like lesbian movies, but probably wouldn't admit it. I don't watch gay movies, they don't interest me in the least, but I do like a good lesbian movie.

I'm not sure what makes 2 women any less homosexual than 2 men, really. Lesbian flicks ARE gay porn. You watch gay porn, and refuse to admit it. Far be it from me, of course, to suggest there's anything wrong with that! :D

I do think far more people are bi-curious than will ever admit to it, however. A perusal of tranny pages on Flickr, for example, will quickly disabuse anyone of the notion that "95% of trannies are straight." ;)

AnnaCalliope

01-14-2011, 11:10 PM

A lot of people still believe heterosexuality is the norm, even when presenting yourself as the opposite sex. Which is funny, because I will be transitioning from a Gay Male to a Straight Female. For the first time in my life, I will be considered heterosexual. I just have to change genders to do it.

Marissa

01-15-2011, 12:45 AM

And once again, I watch where the thread will lead to answer the OP.. and I still find myself wondering why it is considered 'homophobic' to say "Im not gay". So when the lyrics are sang "I a woman, hear me roar" is really saying "I'm manophobic"?????

I had to tell my 25 yr daughter about this thread earlier because its similiar to what her sister and I had to deal with. It seemed that no matter the topic or if she started the topic, my 25 yr old would make a comment "well I'm bi and....." "I don't see it that way cuz I'm bi..." So it wasn't surprising that both my youngest and I had to tell her "enough..enough..we get it..your bi..we don't need to be reminded 24/7 or have it stated to justify something" We didn't see anything wrong with her being bi, but come on..it does not fit into all conversations..

Now how does that fit into this thread..well it doesn't.. but I have to point out that she was just stating who she is..bi..

Some of these threads begin with certain 'given' stipulations..and if you try to answer without additional info, you give the wrong impression of yourself. So yes, sometimes its appropriate to state "I'm straight", "I'm bi", or "I'm not gay". Its not being said in a homophobic manner.. are there homophobics amongst us???? yes.. but as all things, especially here..don't mix us all up in one bowl.

I asked a 'straight' cd what she thought of one of my pics...her response "I'm straight so I don't know"...now go figure that one..I wasn't asking her if she found me sexy...just her opinion of my looks.. So in a way, I understand there are some folks like that, but I would never group them as whole.

If for some reason I felt a need to clarify that I"m bi, I would..and if that meant "I'm not gay" had to be said, then I would..and homophobic is not the thought.. I take it in the same manner that I clarify I'm Hispanic..when its needed..otherwise, I'm just a person from the great state of Texas :D

And just because I desire men as much as I desire women, does not make me gay..it makes me bi.. and dang proud.. :heehee:

joannemarie barker

01-15-2011, 02:45 AM

Nobody has to justify their sexuality to anyone.we are what we are! I'm gay by the way lol :)

Lucy_Bella

01-15-2011, 02:51 AM

I f I was gay I wouldn't care if I was called gay cause I am who I am..But I am not and I cannot stand to be called something I am not..Like being called a liar, cheat, snart,stupid, normal ..You get the point..Its not whats stocked its how its stocked when I cash a check I want to stand by it..

seanmuscle

01-15-2011, 03:05 AM

Aprilrain

01-15-2011, 03:08 AM

How about being called a girl? (:P)

Please do! I love being called a girl or woman or ma'am or miss
Just don't call me dude. I HATE that!

girlalex

01-15-2011, 04:02 AM

I guess its because some of us just don't understand something about our own sexuality that makes us confused and scared about being thought of as gay, because really some of us don't know.
and besides no offense to anyone but in my opinion a heterosexual male to female crossdressers is like saying "a fighter jet with no weapons" which is possible but then again you are like "what?" Yes a lot of us are straight mtf and ftm but i personally believe that there are more bi and gay mtf and ftm.

Kate Simmons

01-15-2011, 06:24 AM

We either comfortable with who we are or not, "labels" notwithstanding.:)

Loveday

01-15-2011, 07:46 AM

Why be divisive.

I generally just don't worry about what people think. I was always taught by my parents and again in therapy years ago that if someone was to think something about me and call me a name or whatever that they must be see that in themself or else they could not identify it.

At for the gay and CD cummunity. I really think the wise thing to do is to support and see the positive things in each others cummunity. Lets face it we are both a minority. If one of us drops the ball and gets negative it hurts us all. When we bind together, we will all be stronger and the closer we come to acceptence.

About myself, well I here, I am a CD, and I'm straight. I love the feel of womens cloths on me.

lauraabdl

01-15-2011, 08:46 AM

I'm me a CD and I don't worry about the other persons opion unless I think it's going to get physical, so far never happened.

DaphneGrey

01-15-2011, 09:28 AM

I am not....really going to get too deep in this as it has been discussed many time before here. My biggest issue with CD's spouting "I am not gay" is that they then wonder why the gay community won't help them out.

Saying "I am not gay" is appropriate when you are asked if you are and if you want to date or if your doctor needs to know. Telling people at a restaurant isn't.

Well if this isn't just so...hypocritical. Somewhere along the line these people told everyone they knew they WERE gay. And I know a good many who broadcast it at every chance. We all don't go around wearing our preference on our sleeves just as many gays don't but this seems sort of elitist. You already said your friends were gay, so either they told you or you are guessing. Now repeating this over and over is annoying and one would wonder if when this happened to them it was more a reinforcement meant for the speaker to convince themselves they really weren't gay.

:sb: education. Maybe repeating we are not gay will someday convince the world...we are not all gay.

Yes at one point in thier lives they told people they were Gay. They never told me I just figured it out in getting to know them. What they diddn't do was declare their sexuallity by saying "I am not Straight" My point is this. If Heterosexual Crossdressers would declare their sexuality (if they felt the need to) By saying something like Gender and Sexuality are seperate and I happen to be Straight. I doubt there would be an Issue.

The prevailing statement is I\we are not Gay the difference is very subtle but very powerful.

As far as the friend I was refering to. He is a wig maker and stylist and has many Crossdressers as clients. He was speaking from personal experience. not being the type to declare wis sexuality you can imagine why he would get upset. "thanks for the wig and all the help and safe nonjudgemental enviornment..... Just so you know I am \ we are not Gay!" In other words not like you because it would be terrible if people thought that.

DaphneGrey

01-15-2011, 09:36 AM

sometimes_miss

01-15-2011, 09:52 AM

Why does someone feel the need to say that "I am not gay." when no one brought up that subject.
It's because most of society automatically considers us to be gay. Sure, people who are already in the vast 'gender continuum' know otherwise, but the first thing that goes through a straight woman's mind when she suddenly is surprised by seeing her SO in female clothing is, 'Is he gay?'.

I have enough trouble finding women to date (and avoiding male sexual interest), dealing with the fact that I work in a predominantly female profession, where men who work here are automatically considered gay; I don't need any further confusion on that matter.

Loni

01-15-2011, 10:45 AM

i have not found a way to include "i am not gay" in any of my postings. (except here) i am not and do not want to be labeled as. but just like other parts of my life i keep under the radar anyhow. and i am sure many out in the world thought of me as a homosexual. and never said a word. there problem not mine.

.

ErickaJ

01-15-2011, 11:19 AM

I'm not gay, just my boyfriend is :P

What I think is the problem with this stereo type is with dressing being out of the "social norm" (in most peoples eyes), the only reason you want to be dressed as a woman is because you want men. Many male/female couples in the world (along with male/male female/female). With the ways and understandings of most peoples ways of life, when you step back and look, it is easy to see why someone would associate a crossdresser with being gay, mainly because of the "most woman want to be with men" thought, so naturally if you dress the role of a woman, the first reaction is you are "man hunting". Now given the fact this isnt true for a good percentage of crossdressers, its a stereotype we will always have an uphill battle for.

Personally I don't care what people think of my sexuality. When asked I tell them I am attracted to the person on the inside, I like them for who they are, their warmth, compassion, etc. The gender of who this is with doesn't matter to me. Another thing that doesn't help is the lack of people standing up and speaking out on the issues openly. I'm not all saying you need to write the newspaper, tell everyone you pass, or caring a sign saying "STRAIGHT CROSSDRESSER". But if you are confidant to speak on the issue, openly discuss it. Try to make people understand what it feels like to be in the role of someone like us. To get the best understanding we have to work together and not whine about the subject, but merely openly discuss and correctively teach others that dressing has 0% bearing on sexuality. Just my opinion

Kassey

01-15-2011, 12:01 PM

My wife occasionally plays the gay card because I like to wear a dress. Occasionally insinuations in social events the subject arrives on the table, personnaly I dont not want to be in the situation that "my lady protests too much". Just because I know how to sew, make a dress cut out cloth and comment on appearance just means I have a modicum of taste. My mother was a great seemstress and made all of the clothes for me and my siblings and when my sister was not around I used to model the clothes to get the cut right.
Besides that mens dangly bits are just ugly.... ewee
I suppose that catagorizes me a just a lesbian, so in that case yes I am gay..
Kassey xxx

CherryZips

01-15-2011, 12:28 PM

I think its worth pointing out the common dating advice to straight crossdressers on this site is to hide it from your potential partners presumably in case the think its gay. I understand practicality of this advice but does reinforce everyone's (including cds) expectations.

And if you fail to find an accepting female many recommend trying men.

Are crossdressers predominatly bi? I'm not so sure. Perhaps bi cds just have less to lose and more to gain in being perceived as gay? Therefore they have a higher profile online. Any thoughts?

Kitty Sue

01-15-2011, 01:29 PM

Interesting topic, but also highly pertinent I believe. I do not consciously make disparaging remarks regarding gay/not gay. I consider myself bisexual and enjoy both men and women.

Perhaps, for some (used to be the case for me) they still feel some shame over CDing. Therefore, this may result in a small % thinking that making rude comments over gay people, somehow proves they are still a masculine individual. Well I maybe incorrect, but that is my experience.

Rianna Humble

01-15-2011, 02:04 PM

why should CDs like being thot of as gay?

I'm sorry, Sherry, like many posters here, you have missed the point of the OP by approximately 180 degrees.

The question - which is very valid - is "In the context of these forums why do some feel the need to continually interject that they are not gay?". The original poster qualified the question by citing a number of examples where the interjection might be valid if true, but why here?

The question was not "Do you mind if I think of you as Gay?". Perhaps you could clarify why in your opinion failing to make the statement in every post in these forums would automatically make people who are not reading these forums assume anything about the poster's sexual preference?

I think its worth pointing out the common dating advice to straight crossdressers on this site is to hide it from your potential partners

I really don't know where you get that idea, the normal advice I see on these forums to cross-dressers who are dating is "tell the other person as soon as you think it might be leading somewhere - better to find out whether they can live with that before it gets so deep that one of you would get hurt by rejection"

StarrOfDelite

01-15-2011, 02:06 PM

I don't think I've ever needed to assert that I wasn't gay, apart from to my wife.

I feel I should also add that I'm not gay. Mind you I do have some serious doubts about some of the men I've slept with

Most excellent sense of humor yet! As with most humor, there is a huge kernel of truth, too.

DaphneGrey

01-15-2011, 03:31 PM

CherryZips

01-15-2011, 03:47 PM

I really don't know where you get that idea, the normal advice I see on these forums to cross-dressers who are dating is "tell the other person as soon as you think it might be leading somewhere - better to find out whether they can live with that before it gets so deep that one of you would get hurt by rejection"

I was making a difference between being open to start with and telling them when the relationship gets serious. There is always a temptation for a cd to wait until there is emotional investment.

Sophie_C

01-15-2011, 03:58 PM

I have to disagree with your statement about women being turned off by bi guys. If you are unaware, there are communities of (mostly) females who love gay and bisexual men and write stories and make art about them. This genre is called "slash" and in Japan is known as "yaoi" or "boys love" and is extremely popular, particularly among Japanese animation fans. Kirk/Spock is the fictional pairing that is considered to have started slash, back when the original Star Trek was on.

Fans of this genre have many websites dedicated to their interest in creating pairings out of fictional characters (from tv, books, movies, etc) and even from real people like actors. There are also many books and comics about these gay and bisexual men. As a GG who loves slash and yaoi, I should know, because I have a sizable collection of Japanese yaoi comics! In the US, there is even an annual convention dedicated solely to yaoi. Japan has similar events and I'm pretty sure some other countries do as well.

Yaoi has grown significantly in popularity, as more comic artists and writers from all over the world release their own books about gay and bisexual men. When I first got into it 10 years ago, there was not as much information or published material, but I feel it's safe to say that has multiplied ten-fold in America. Look in the comics and manga (Japanese comics) section of any bookstore. There are hundreds of comics labeled yaoi or boys love, many sealed in plastic wrap!

It might not be a totally mainstream opinion, but there are many, many women who are interested in or obsessed with romantic and sexual relationships between men.

You didn't understand what I said. There are plenty of women who like male relationships and even gay porn. That doesn't mean they wouldn't be turned off by a bisexual man interested in them right in front of them, or by finding their seemingly heterosexual man is not bi. Regardless, please recognized the obvious - that you are of a very, very small minority of women out there. In fact, I know a hell of a lot of oddities out there, and have never heard of this, so this is truly a rare thing...

stephi

01-15-2011, 04:01 PM

If we shave our legs, pluck our eye brows, wear make up and high heels and love all things femme and love to be femme. If we have a girls name and love to pass and be convincing and this is a major part of our live's (hence reading this). Then there is only one very small step left........the line between this and being with a man is very slim, I would contend. It is the ultimate fulfilment of womanhood surely, and I think that as a CD many of us struggle with this particular concept. If it looks like a duck and goes quack???

To give a comfort factor we proclaim to all and sundry (mostly oursleves) on many a post - absolutely hetero, not gay, blah, blah..... me thinks many of us protest too much. Not trying to divide opinion but I bet there are many of us (myself included) who fall into this bracket. Comes with the territory I think.

XOX
Stephi

PS wouldnt try and analyse the argument too much you end up at the bottom of a vodka bottle very quickly strumming your bottom lip.

DaphneGrey

01-15-2011, 04:31 PM

Thanks for all the posts everyone! I certainly understand the need to educate, be honest with family, answering direct questions etc. I very rarely discuss my sexuality with anyone accept people I am very close with. As it seems to be constantly evolving, so I am not sure what I am and I hate lables to begin with. I am sure many people think I am Gay as a matter of fact I know that quite a few people at work think I am Gay. And very often I think it myself. It is all just fine, people can think what they want about me, when I came out, I came out as Daphne. And frankly what people think about what I wear, do, or who I do, means less than nothing to me

A few years ago when I was just figuring all of this out I tried to join a support group. I was denied because I wouldn't declare my sexuality. "Well we are here for heterosexual crossdressers" The Tri ess website as well as hundreds of others make the same statements. The number one question on FAQ list's pertaining to crossdressing are varying but all say the same thing. I\we are not gay... I am not Gay is a prevailing statement on this form and many others.

I think the "I am not Gay" Statements have an underlying ugliness to them. I think declaring sexuality (if you feel the need to) can be done by saying I am straight. rather than, I am not Gay. It comes across sounding like " that is the one thing that I don't want people to think I am."

As far as feeling the need too decare in the first place. (other than educating wives, loved ones , etc) Couldn't you just say gender and sexuality are seperate, and leave it at that. Who hasn't heard straight men say "I have no problem with a guy being gay I just dont want to hear about it." or "we dont go around telling everyone we are straight" So if you feel the need to declare that you are straight you might try and do it without bringing Gay into it.

One last point, statements like "It is not my thing but I am fine if you are, Not there is anything wrong with that" etc,etc Are statements nobody needs to hear. I know there is nothing wrong with my sexuality thanks.

LaurenB

01-15-2011, 04:43 PM

The answer to the OP's question is just one simple word: FEAR.

We have been behavior modified, socialized, polarized and brain washed into thinking that gay=bad. In fact, we're all coping with the CD=bad, too. Otherwise why would we all be anonymous here.

In a society dominated by religiosity, one can never underestimate the possible repercussions of admitting to an alternate world view even if it is as natural as can be (we can dredge up all kinds of studies about the brilliant spectrum of sexual preferences found throughout the animal kingdom).

The fact is when one swims against the prevailing current, all it takes is an embarrassed wife or child, a hung up employer or as we've seen lately, a nut with a handgun to thoroughly ruin ones world. And that's why I for one, stay away from the subject regardless of the reality that I find some persons of both genders incredibly beautiful and would have no issues loving them as intimately as possible.

OP-ED two cents worth (don't read if you are easily offended): Dump the dogmatic religions and other propaganda means of controlling the masses and all these homophobias and bigotries go away instantly.

Power to the people!
LB

DebsUK

01-15-2011, 05:09 PM

I agree with the OP. It is homophobic to constantly remind people you're not gay. Compensating much? The ironic thing is that it's probably more acceptable in society to be gay than CD. Look at the number of well known gay celebrities. Tonight on the lottery show in the UK, one of the participants in the quiz was talking about his male partner in Germany (to be honest he was the least gayly dressed man I think I've ever seen, with absolutely no apparent sense of style, not that I'm generalisaing LOL), but when was the last time there was a fully dressed CD on a TV quiz show?

Steph.TS

01-15-2011, 05:18 PM

I think we are afraid of being thought of gay because as CD's/TS's we have our own set of problems with deal with, without adding more pressure and prejudice against us.

if this was a world that was open and accepting of LGBT people no one in that group would have anything to worry about.

Debutante

01-15-2011, 07:29 PM

I grew up with a sense of homophobia. And when my urges for crossdrssing came, that intensified --
thinking "I must be gay". It was a terrifying feeling, and the whole thing brought shame.
But as we mature, educate ourselves, discover ourselves, we see the variety of gender and sexual
orientation in the TG community.
We develope love for ourselves, and more self-acceptance and: tolerance.Tolerance for others -- this also needs to
extend to the Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual communities: they are our friends and allies...

GingerLeigh

01-15-2011, 07:32 PM

I had no idea it was so offensive to proclaim my "not being gay". It only mention it so that others on this site who are gay don't get any ideas that I am or that I'm available. Please, no offense intended, I don't give a rats pitoooey if anyone thinks I'm gay nor do I care if anyone else is gay or bi-sexual. Jeeze, I think it's tougher for outsiders to accept that I like to wear women's clothing than it is for them to accept homosexuality!

I'll change my profile so I no longer offend our gay friends.

Again, sorry.

Ginger

CherryZips

01-15-2011, 08:19 PM

ela_loves_yaoi

01-15-2011, 08:31 PM

Well you weren't quite clear. Slash and yaoi are things popular with a younger and newer generation of fans (often teens and 20-somethings), though there are certainly older fans as well. A simple Google or Wikipedia search will offer numerous sources for information on these subjects. You likely haven't heard of them because you're not into fanfiction or anime. If it's such a niche genre, I'm not sure why places like Borders and Barnes & Noble sell so many comic books about it. It's certainly not as rare as you think.

Tranny Tee

01-15-2011, 08:58 PM

When I made some of my first shopping excursions I made it a point to procaim my heterosexauality. As I have aged (and maybe progressed) I no longer make it a point to state that I am straight. I have come out to a few people and only one or two have asked my sexual orientation.
So many of us continue to be in a state of denial and are confused about the difference between sexuality and gender. As crossdressers we are perceived by many as being "strange" and many confuse our gender and our sexual preferences.

I agree with that great philosopher, Popeye, and am proud to be able to say, "I yam what I yam."

DebsUK

01-16-2011, 01:14 PM

If we shave our legs, pluck our eye brows, wear make up and high heels and love all things femme and love to be femme. If we have a girls name and love to pass and be convincing and this is a major part of our live's (hence reading this). Then there is only one very small step left........the line between this and being with a man is very slim, I would contend. It is the ultimate fulfilment of womanhood surely, and I think that as a CD many of us struggle with this particular concept. If it looks like a duck and goes quack???

To give a comfort factor we proclaim to all and sundry (mostly oursleves) on many a post - absolutely hetero, not gay, blah, blah..... me thinks many of us protest too much. Not trying to divide opinion but I bet there are many of us (myself included) who fall into this bracket. Comes with the territory I think.

This is the sort of statement that really irritates me. "I present as a woman, therefore I must want to have sex with a man". In this day and age women don't need to be after a shag if they want to dress in sexy clothes, and this should also be the case for CDs. I despair that a lot of men have such a low opinion of women that this is what they see as the objective as presenting as one

There have been a lot of sweeping generalisations on this thread, but this is up there wth the worst of them

Rianna Humble

01-16-2011, 01:43 PM

If it looks like a duck and goes quack
... beware lest it's a drake :eek:

KristaE

01-16-2011, 07:14 PM

I think I may have stated in my intro that I am straight and I have mentioned my wife a few times. I don't use the phrase "I am not gay"... it never even occurred to me to state what I am NOT (except to my wife, as other have said).

But being a lawyer, I try to view things from all sides and I think I might be able to give a viewpoint that has not been expressed so far.

CDing is not an easy thing to come to terms with. Moreover, there is a wide spectrum of thoughts, feelings, and beliefs on this topic. A person may realize that they are a CDer, but do not yet understand all of their feelings on the matter fully (this is the last community that should be trying to force people to identify as one specific thing or another). Yes, perhaps they are only telling themselves that they are not gay, but if that is how they cope with fitting all of the feelings (often conflicting feelings) inside their head, then who are we to begrudge them that? I'm sure we've all had our own little mechanism we've used to come to terms with our thoughts.

Perhaps, saying "I'm not gay" is the only way a particular CDer knows how to express the complex and chaotic feelings they experience. There is also the question of how self-aware a person is. If they could give their thoughts words, they might say "I'm not sure what I am, but I definitely know I am attracted sexually to women and so I know I'm definitely not gay." But that complex thought/emotion comes out simply as "I'm not gay." Is this possible?

We need to realize that we have two groups (gay and CD), and each is trying to break free from the stereotypes, ridicule, and opposition they receive from the "outside" world.

But to be quite blunt about it, I think (as many others have said) that being homosexual is accepted FAR more than CDing. At least society, in general, knows what 'gay' means... most still do not have the foggiest clue what it means to be a CDer. That being the case, I would ask for our homosexual compatriots to cut us CDers a bit of slack as we come to terms with our own natures and as the CD community tries to find its place of acceptance in society.

I'm not saying that CDers are exempt from being corrected on their use of terminology, but I think it a bit counterproductive (and maybe even hypocritical) to deny another the freedom to learn how to express their own feelings. The CD community is still in its relative infancy, still trying to navigate the minefield of gender issues.

At the very least, we don't need to label something as "homophobic" in order to discourage it. That certainly won't win any friends.

There are number of reason a person might feel a need to use that phrase. Homophobia is only one of the possibilities, and actually in the context of this site, I think it is probably a minor possibility. Every other possibility that I can think of should cause us to respond with gentleness and understanding, not labelling and chastisement.

Simply addressing someone by saying: "One of the things that I've found helpful in dealing with and being comfortable with my CDing is to avoid defining myself by what I am 'not' and instead simply defining what I 'am'. We are surrounded by the negative (especially CDers) and if we define ourselves by the negative, it will trap us in the vicious cycle of negativity. For instance, instead of saying 'I'm not gay', you could opt for the far more positive phrase 'I'm straight'. Just that small little change in my terminology has helped me feel more comfortable with who I 'am" instead of being fearful of what I am 'not'."

And to all of those who say "I'm not gay", I really meant what I just wrote.

Here's hoping for all of us to have more inner strength and courage.

Rianna Humble

01-16-2011, 08:02 PM

Krista, thank you for a very positive and well thought-out contribution.

However, it is my belief that the OP was upset by the interjection being used in contexts where sexuality is not even part of the issue. I know that reading references to someone's sexuality out of context irks me and I can understand how some people might feel that the constant reminder "I am not xxx" is a covert attack on those who do identify as xxx.

Just for the record: I'm not Asian, African, North American, south American or Australasian. But, what has that told you about the issue under discussion?

Heathersgams

01-16-2011, 08:38 PM

Interjecting "I'm not gay" into the conversation is bad timing. Let the other person ask first. All they are really saying is "help me understand you". Even then a definative answer is not required, how about saying you're not sure yourself (probably the most honest answer) then ask them how they feel about strait, gay and in between genders. It keeps the conversation going and you'll both learn something.

jasmine57

01-16-2011, 09:13 PM

I agree with you that it seem to be a standard phrase for a lot of crossdressers. I've just recently come to terms with the fact that I am gay. But just like crossdressing, I don't go around advertising it. If it comes up, I don't deny either. It doesn't make sense to me that people, crossdresser or not need to afirm the fact that they are not gay. What does it really matter. Here on this forum it should be less important to state your sexual preference. Our chosen lifestyle should be accepting no matter what. There are many different aspects of crossdressing and I don't agree with all of them but it doesn't mean they are wrong or my way is right. I enjoy expressing my feminine side and enjoy trying to emulate the gender that I so much appreciate. My sexual preference has nothing to do with any of that. It seems to me that too often we (crossdressers), as a community worry more about what others think than what is really important, how we truly feel.
There are many girls on here who don't fit that scenario, so please don't be offended. But to answer your original question, I think we are affraid of being thought of as gay because it's just another stigma people can put on us without out output. It's ok with me if people think I'm gay, but if they think I'm gay because I crossdress that's another story.

Heathersgams

01-16-2011, 11:08 PM

Hi Jasmine, As a new girl in town I take my hat (wig!) off to the members who've been here for years and thousands of replys to threads. We never stop learning or wanting to reach out. Your reply here made me think of another contradiction in ideals that make labels so hard to attach to the cd community. If a man presents himself as a woman, wants to have relations with a man is she gay? Don't think so, the wiggly parts may be all male but it's a hetro relationship in my mind. Then again, I have gay friends with absoluterly no intrest in having a relationship with a cd. So would you be hiding the cd'ing from potential cdphobic gay partners not unlike hiding it from hetro partners aka wives? Wow, can we get more marginalised?

Rianna Humble

01-17-2011, 02:56 AM

If a man presents himself as a woman, wants to have relations with a man is she gay?

In my opinion, this is not quite as straightforward as it may seem and for me it would depend both on the brain gender of the "man" and whether they act on the desire.

If it remains at the stage of wanting, but nothing is done to take it further, I would think that it is a fantasy and tells us nothing about the person's sexuality.

If the person in the question identifies theirself as a male cross-dresser, then I would think that having relations with another man is a homosexual act and so the cross-dresser would possibly be gay, bi or bi-curious.

If the person in the question has a female brain (i.e. she is a woman in a man's body) then I would agree that it is a heterosexual act although society might not see it as such until she had done something about aligning her body to her true gender.

:2c:

Christinedreamer

01-17-2011, 03:21 AM

I do have a great many gay friends and a few that are TS. In my case, the "no I am not gay" is merely a direct and concise response to a direct question when someone asks me "If you like to wear women's clothes, are you gay?" Answer: "no". Then I explain the usual facts about CDers etc. I always EXPLAIN rather than deny with any hint of homophobia.

Nicole Erin

01-17-2011, 05:23 AM

I prefer women.
I care less if someone thinks I prefer men.
I am not wanting a relationship.

When someone finds out I am TS of course they always say, OK so you want to be a woman yet you like women, are you lesbian? Wait I don't get it..."

Here is my most honest preference - I prefer to not be in a relationship cause I don't need to put up with someone's crap just because I supposedly "love" them or they have fantasies about a relationship or family. I did that for 14 years, I ain't going back to it.

JustineFallow

01-18-2011, 03:46 AM

Most crossdressers love men or at least have fantasies about being with a handsome man that will hold her, protect her and make her feel petite feminine and girly. CDs are women born with mens bodies. It takes time for them to accept their attraction towards men just as it takes time for them to have the confidence to go out en femme. Men love to see a CD in stockings and heels and spoil her

Why do I get the feeling that most of your posts here are typed with one hand?

NicoleScott

01-18-2011, 11:04 AM

I was recently hanging out with some friends of mine who happen to be Gay and the conversation came up about why Gay folk don't really care for Heterosexual Male to Female crossdressers. The answer " They are always going on about not being Gay. I understand that they are not but it gets kind of tiring hearing it, and sometimes it is offensive!

Let me get this straight. I'm not gay but I'm not allowed to say so because a gay person might be offended by it? Give me a break. I'm tired of all this super-sensitivity. Tell your gay friends to read these posts and the many valid reasons we say we're not gay. And get over it.

DaphneGrey

01-18-2011, 04:35 PM

Let me get this straight. I'm not gay but I'm not allowed to say so because a gay person might be offended by it? Give me a break. I'm tired of all this super-sensitivity. Tell your gay friends to read these posts and the many valid reasons we say we're not gay. And get over it.

Read post number 44 in this thread. If you went out of your way to treat crossdressers well and help them out. You might find it a little irritating as well. My friend was speaking from personal experience. I wont be telling my friends to get over anything! You can declare your sexuality by saying you are straight. If you feel the need to at all. Or you can run around shouting I am not gay to anybody who will listen. It really makes no difference to me. But if you want a clue as to why you are not looked upon with respect in the LGBT community I would say it is a good place to start. Just my two cents.

Rianna Humble

01-18-2011, 04:56 PM

Let me get this straight. I'm not gay but I'm not allowed to say so

What I still don't understand after reading all the replies so far in this thread is why you (or anyone else) have to tell me that when your sexuality was never in question. Fair play if we are discussing sexual fantasies and you state something like "I am not gay so I have never fantasized about sex with a partner of the same sex", but why do we see the disclaimer repeatedly when it is out of context?

cordgrass

01-18-2011, 05:05 PM

Most crossdressers love men or at least have fantasies about being with a handsome man that will hold her, protect her and make her feel petite feminine and girly. CDs are women born with mens bodies. It takes time for them to accept their attraction towards men just as it takes time for them to have the confidence to go out en femme. Men love to see a CD in stockings and heels and spoil her

"Most"? I think I could hold, protect and make feel petite feminine and girly a crossdresser as well as a man could. And not all women want that sort of thing anyhow--why on earth would all CD's?

DebsUK

01-18-2011, 05:07 PM

I'm with Daphne. The point is that a lot of CDers make a point of stressing their heterosexuality at every opportunity. It comes across as "OK, I wear a dress but at least I'm not queer!" Why the need to stress you're not gay? I don't stress that I'm not Jewish, I'm not French, I don't eat raisins, I don't agree with the fiscal policy of Greece or that I don't like Piers Morgan, and my sexual orientation is just as irrelevant to everyday conversation

Soriya

01-18-2011, 05:18 PM

I think a lot of it comes down to a person not being comfortable with themselves overall. Being a Crossdresser for someone who perhaps doesn't quite understand what it is to them is hard enough and add in the association of being gay to it, which most who don't know anything about CD's will more then likely think just adds to the confusion. Also, just the stigma of being considered gay to most straight men is something they perhaps are trying to avoid due to the backlash it could bring on them from others.

I suppose it comes down to not being comfortable in ones own skin overall. My mom used to tell me this when i was young. "The guilty party is usually the one running to the street to state their case". For the most part in most situations, she is right as I have found in life. Those who broadcast over and over, go out of their way to state things without anyone ever asking usually are the ones who are hiding something, in this case, maybe themselves.

I hate labels and hate even more those who use them to defend themselves. I mean, instead of throwing that stone at that glass house, maybe one should look at the reflection staring back at them and ask themselves why they want to throw the stone in the first place. You can't change what others think no matter how hard you try.

herwannabe

01-18-2011, 07:11 PM

I have NOTHING against GAYS, Straights, Bi's, Blacks, Reds, Whites or any other groups that want to be recognized,

I am what I am, and I am Michelle, and I don't like green eggs and ham nor do I not care what or who you am, You am what you am and I what I am and thru I am

Jennifer Freeman

01-18-2011, 07:17 PM

If I must be labelled and categorised, I prefer to be stuck in the correct box.
Jennifer Freeman

seanmuscle

01-18-2011, 07:59 PM

cordgrass

01-18-2011, 08:33 PM

Again. Women often feel threatened that a man can take her place. A CD loves to feel feminine. You cannot do that for a man because he views you as a sister or gal pal. And I hate to break it to you but most women do love strong masculine men. And another thing is that women who are into CD SOMETIMES have cases where they were abused or hurt by a dominant male figure or are bisexual. The woman is using the CD to feel safe and secure while the CD is using the woman to validate his heterosexuality. It all starts of with clothes, then makeup, then eventually men. how many times have you heard a CD say they want to get dolled up in stockings, garter, corset and dress and deep red lipstick and look up into the eyes of a handsome man while they lie their head on his broad chest? CD love to feel safe, secure, protected and feminine just like a normal girl.

You have just as much right to be here as I do, and I'm quite sure you are perfectly correct about many crossdressers here. But not the majority. And even many of the bisexual crossdressers prefer women and other crossdressers to manly men such as yourself. I'm not going to say all the things I'm thinking about in reply because I don't want to get banned, but will content myself with saying I can do anything a man can do, and I can do it better, longer and harder.

Barbara Dugan

01-18-2011, 10:09 PM

Pythos

01-19-2011, 12:56 AM

"CD love to feel safe, secure, protected and feminine just like a normal girl."

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

OMG. Are you fraggin kidding me. I (that is me) want to look into the eyes of my FEMALE lover while lying in lap as she strokes my hair and runs her fingers along my chest. I want to then have a WHOLE LOTTA other stuff happen too.

My god, what a condescending paragraph I just read from the quoter of this statement.

CDers want "strong men" BLEAH!!! Not this CDer!!!

As far as I am concerned, the image and myth of the "strong man" can go the way of the do do. It is because of "strong men" we have a majority of the crap we have now a days. Wars are just penis comparisons. The arms race was just a "who's got the biggest one" contest.

Oh and what HUMAN does not want to feel loved, and safe. This is not strictly a sex thing, though it has been made such by our messed up society.

Think about this. Is a lioness helpless? Is she unable to defend herself without the male lion (with his huge main of hair)?

Why do human females have this notion of being helpless without a male around? Makes little to no sense to me when one looks at nature.

seanmuscle

01-19-2011, 02:51 AM

Actually the male lions job is to protect the females and the territory... The lioness just hunts food.

Tanya C

01-19-2011, 02:55 AM

DaphneGrey

01-19-2011, 06:08 AM

I don't think it's homophobia so much as it is frustration at the strerotypes. And it cuts both ways because there are a lot of gay men who simply do not wish to be regarded as a man who is wrought with feminine affectations.

How true, nobody wants to be stereotyped as anything. Gay men or women , crossdressers, or anybody else. A great point! Perhaps I don't see being percieved as Gay a problem because other than the conversations I have had with my SO it has never really been a question that needed to be answered (for me personally)

I have been out of the closet for a few years and have worked very hard to find a real place in the world. I went and found places to be where I could meet people and make friends and have a sense of purpose. I volunteered, found a progressive church, got invlved in things made friends and so forth. I shop, go to the bank, stop and buy gas etc.. Nobody has ever asked me If I were Gay. As a matter of fact the only people who ever have are other crossdressers. Even been hit on once or twice and managed to express I wasn't available without saying "I am not Gay" I usually show my wedding ring and say thats very sweet thanks but I am off the market.

I just dont see the need to qualify your sexuallity. The truth is very few people if any really care. Afterall isn't that what straight people are always saying about Gays? "I dont care if someone is Gay! I just don't want to hear about it"? or how about "I don't go around telling everybody I am straight" They certainly do around here.

If anyone takes the time to get know me, they will find out what my sexual preference is. Other than that it really doesn't matter.

The constant stressing I am not Gay comes off at best as denial or insecurity and at its worst as saying "Well at least I am not Gay" I know in many cases perhaps this is not the case. But this is the way it reads to outsiders {and more than a few insiders) Me thinks SHE does protest to much. (thanks Debs UK)

DaphneGrey

01-19-2011, 06:31 AM

:bighug::bighug:
I really like this thread, even when it takes other direction. I am a closeted gay crossdresser and sometimes I feel an urge to come out but I always back up because of fear of the consequences also in part of because I can't really accept myself being either gay or crossdresser. I know self acceptance is the most important thing but I feel I am struggling with acceptance at the moment.

Self acceptence is the hardest thing! I am gad you like the thread, and I hope it has helped in your struggle in some way hugs.

CaitlynRenee

01-19-2011, 10:28 AM

Interesting thread........

And much like the Japanese Kabuki theater actors who took female roles, many on this site my indeed be gay. Others may NOT be gay and some will fall into the 'bisexual' label. I wonder if it really matters in the grand scheme of things.

Frankly, I've never cared. I've never had to 'explain' myself.

CaitlynRenee

01-19-2011, 10:30 AM

why do i get the feeling that most of your posts here are typed with one hand?

huh??

joannemarie barker

01-19-2011, 05:58 PM

huh??

lol she means that he's doing something with his other hand :D which is also interesting :D

DebsUK

01-19-2011, 06:05 PM

Again. Women often feel threatened that a man can take her place. A CD loves to feel feminine. You cannot do that for a man because he views you as a sister or gal pal. And I hate to break it to you but most women do love strong masculine men. And another thing is that women who are into CD SOMETIMES have cases where they were abused or hurt by a dominant male figure or are bisexual. The woman is using the CD to feel safe and secure while the CD is using the woman to validate his heterosexuality. It all starts of with clothes, then makeup, then eventually men. how many times have you heard a CD say they want to get dolled up in stockings, garter, corset and dress and deep red lipstick and look up into the eyes of a handsome man while they lie their head on his broad chest? CD love to feel safe, secure, protected and feminine just like a normal girl.

Well I could go on about what a load of ill-informed claptrap this statement actually is, and how you should maybe read a book that has more words than pictures in it, but it is difficult to communicate with the hard of thinking sometimes so I'll just say...

Shush!
The adults are talking!

Kaz

01-19-2011, 06:39 PM

Simple for me... I don't want to be thought of as gay because I am not... I do not want to advertise myself to people in a way that means they will be severely disappointed with who I am. This is the CD paradox.

I am who I am... it is complex and difficult to fathom, but I am learning...

:hugs:

darla_g

01-19-2011, 07:08 PM

Elsa

01-19-2011, 07:09 PM

Kaz

01-19-2011, 07:20 PM

Great point and well made...

It really highlights the paradox we are in.

I am not gay. I have tested this many times in my life. I am quite clear. BUT...

As Kaz... I feel certain thoughts...

Now then, how do I rationalise this? In Kaz mode it would be normal to want to experience more and more female experiences (for those of you who do not go down this road and just like wearing women's clothes this may not necessarily apply)... and so..

Then there is the reality...

I must admit that I have not been there yet, though I keep thinking about it. What stops me? I actually don't fancy blokes! So... I am not gay?

This is a real issue for many, I think. Fantasy vs Reality...

Rianna Humble

01-19-2011, 07:56 PM

I actually don't fancy blokes! So... I am not gay?

Neither do I, but doesn't that mean that I am?

Areyan

01-19-2011, 09:55 PM

it is my understanding, based on talking with a few MTF transsexuals of all kinds of orientations, that one doesn't simply "change" their orientation based on their gender. this is patently true and i am my own case of it. as a female i lived a heterosexual life and dated/sexed with males. now that i am approaching transition to physically become a male i am still heterosexual and have found i am interested in being with females post-transition. i don't know how this applies to crossdressers who are not transsexuals but i hear that if you are a particular orientation before transition, then it will usually remain post-transition. i also agree with the others that if you continue to protest you're not gay when you in fact harbour sexual feelings towards other males then you are at least a bisexual in denial.

also men are incredibly violent and stupid about the whole gay thing. most heterosexual males are in fact, dangerous when homophobic and approached with the homosexual question. how many transwomen have had their living daylights kicked out of them by the man they just had sex with, all because he perceived it as gay after the fact? if you're truly unaware of this, you're living in a vacuum.

GaleWarning

01-19-2011, 11:20 PM

I actually don't fancy blokes! So... I am not gay?

Me neither! ... But ... I am actually feeling quite gay right now ... extremely happy, in fact! In a Noddy/Big Ears kind of way.
:heehee:

Vickie_CDTV

01-20-2011, 01:08 AM

It may just be a matter of identification.

Virginia Prince argued that heterosexual transvestism is a unique phenomenon in of itself, one of many motivations for crossdressing. If one believes this to be true (and to an extent I do), and to identify as someone who is a member of this phenomenon, one naturally has to include a mention their sexuality.

KristaE

01-20-2011, 01:28 AM

Good point, Vickie. I think you may be dead on with that. How can we separate the two topics, when there is so much blend between the two.

The thing is that once we start labeling ourselves, we try to label ourselves as accurately as possible. There are gay and non-gay CDers, so why not label one's self as accurately as possible and say "I am not gay"? Our community has all sorts of acronyms, short-hands, and euphemisms for things, it is almost a guarantee that we are going to have this kind of self-declaratory labeling. Not out of "homophobia", but out accurate self-indentification.

Jenniferathome

01-20-2011, 01:30 AM

I think it is more of a reconciliation on the cross dressers part to try to explain to themselves that they are not "weird." Let's face it, cross dressing is different. I've been a cross dresser for almost 35 years and I still can't explain it. I simply love it.

Rianna Humble

01-20-2011, 03:36 AM

why not label one's self as accurately as possible and say "I am not gay"?

If we are going to go down that route, our posts will become interminably long because - in the interests of accuracy - we should add:

I'm not a cat
I'm not a dog
...
I'm not {insert animal of choice here}
I'm not purple
I'm not blue-skinned
I'm not fuschia
...
I'm not employed/unemployed (depending on your circumstances)
I'm not rich
I'm not bald (if it's true)
I'm not in love (if it's true)
I'm not a polyglot
I'm not the ruler of the world
I'm not a rock star
I'm not an urban spaceman
...

All of which are equally relevant to the vast majority of topics discussed as "I'm not gay" and are equally accurate. I'll be interested to see how accurately you describe everything that you are not in your next postings.

Coyote

01-20-2011, 03:53 AM

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

**The Prisoner** Episode 6 *Arrival*

Joanne f

01-20-2011, 06:09 AM

I know we say that sexuality and gender are two different things but they are linked otherwise the human race would have disappeared by now and i know that there are many forms of cross dressing and many reasons to do it .
I wonder sometimes if we do not over simplify it , yes i am gay/ no i am not , is there something more complicated to it than that , it has been said that it is far more natural to be Bi than most people realise or are willing to accept , i think it was the Romans that realised this and embrace it , now throw into that someone who is transgendered , nether male or female or male and female which ever way you look at it , is it possible that they would actually find it difficult to understand or even recognise the concept of being gay for that concept would not exist for them in the same term as it would for a none TG as they do not recognise a distinct difference between male and female within themselves how would they recognise a difference in gay or not gay sexuality .
Does the concept of being gay actually exist for a transgender.

cordgrass

01-20-2011, 11:48 AM

Before knocking down Seanmuscle comments, please go back to the thread “Crossing dressing and dating guys?” which received more than 700 posts. A very high proportion of members (80%?) said that when dressed, they are interested of being with a man. Should they be all classified as Gays? Technically yes, because the common definition of Gay is a “male” to “male “ relationship. However, if we accept that we have a woman side, it is quite understandable that with time that woman side will claim its due and ask for retribution and satisfaction, sometimes just as a fantasy. I am not convinced that we can call that type of relationship a Gay relationship. If we remove the cross-dressing side, we would not have any relationship because almost every responder insisted on the "when dressed" aspect.

I'm curious to know whether this desire to be with a man is just to take the role and physical sensations of the female, or actually enjoying the male scent, male body, male genitalia? In other words, would that sort of desire be fulfilled by a pretty woman dressed in a feminine way who was very sexually aggressive and assumed the man's role in all respects, including pegging?

KristaE

01-20-2011, 01:22 PM

If we are going to go down that route, our posts will become interminably long because - in the interests of accuracy - we should add:
(remainder omitted for brevity)
But none of those things are relevant to the question of crossdressing, whereas (as others have mentioned) homosexuality is closely related to the topic. I agree that the better phrase would be "I am straight", but it sounds like people are upset at any mention of orientation. I think that is just ridiculous. These are relevant and related topics.

NicoleScott

01-20-2011, 02:06 PM

seanmuscle

01-20-2011, 03:40 PM

Pegging is not the same as having a real man. Plus a womans body is built differently. He knows that you are still a woman in his head so that in itself is not fulfilling. What are you going to do if your husband is secretly dreaming about 6 foot 2 hunk?

cordgrass

01-20-2011, 04:25 PM

Well, that's exactly my question.

Why do I suspect that you are 6'2"? :)

Also, I don't have a husband, I'm a, well, I'm very similar to you, shall we say.

Rianna Humble

01-20-2011, 04:52 PM

Rianna, I may be one or more of those things you said you're not in your post (#108). But I'm not offended by you saying you're not.
Why someone who is gay gets offended by someone saying they're not just blows me away. Oops. Sorry. Does that offend you , too?

Nicole, just because I am offended that people protest about their sexuality where it is totally irrelevant to the point under discussion does not give you the right to make assumptions about my sexuality.

@Krista, in the vast majority of posts where I have been offended by people protesting about their sexuality, this had nothing whatsoever to do with the topic under discussion.

As I have said higher up in this thread, if the topic under discussion is sexual relations then fair play if you want to state what your orientation is whilst contributing to that subject. When you bring your sexuality into a discussion (for example) about what colour nail varnish you prefer, it becomes offensive.

My sexual orientation has rarely been stated in these forums (I would estimate less than once in every 500 posts) and is generally irrelevant to the topic of cross-dressing or transition. Even in this thread where some have presumed that because I get offended by people trumpeting their sexuality where it does not belong my personal orientation is none of your business.

If you wish to include irrelevancies for the purpose of accuracy, please include the different categories that you snipped from my example, otherwise I will continue to be offended by your flaunting your sexuality where it is not relevant.

You contend that sexual orientation is relevant to the whole of the topic of cross-dressing, in that case it is also relevant to any discussion in the general population be it about religion, politics or just the weather because the incidence of any given sexual orientation has never been proven to be higher amongst cross-dressers than amongst the general population.

kimdl93

01-20-2011, 05:47 PM

This thread has lingered for a few days now and I've avoided responding. But, I'm bored, so what the heck.

My first reactions was "who is we?" I am sure some of us dislike being stereotyped as gay because we CD. Others among us probably don't give a rip about labels.

Now, why does being labeled gay evoke fear in people (CD or otherwise) is another matter. Bad things have happened to people because prejudice...from being ostracized from social networks to job loss to physical harm. And of course, one can consider the intentions of the people applying such labels. The Gay label is almost always used as a weapon meant to demean and diminish.

Janice Lester

01-20-2011, 06:19 PM

After reading the whole thread, well up until right now. I was surprised how long it took for someone to mention that the OP was talking mostly about what is on this forum. Yes there was an example of someone from the outside but it was primarily about here.

We like to proclaim that here on the forum we should be open about our feelings, that this should be a safe place to express ourselves. But I've gotten that feeling, the hair on the back of my neck standing up when the subject at hand has nothing to do with sexual orientation someone types "I'm not gay"

Ok, congratulations you've shown yourself to be insensitive in a place where you've come to be understood.

Barbara Dugan

01-20-2011, 09:13 PM

I'm curious to know whether this desire to be with a man is just to take the role and physical sensations of the female, or actually enjoying the male scent, male body, male genitalia? In other words, would that sort of desire be fulfilled by a pretty woman dressed in a feminine way who was very sexually aggressive and assumed the man's role in all respects, including pegging?

This is a good question. on my personal experience is to take the role and physical sensations of the female and I have to admit that for me the male scent,male body is really intoxicating. I've never been with a woman in my life even that some tried to tempt me a few times. I think on some relationships a woman can be sexually aggressive, sexuality can take many variations

Maddie22

01-20-2011, 11:01 PM

Before I interject my views and opinions regarding this thread I would like to say that it has been one of the most interesting posts that I've read in a while.

Getting to the basic question of the post regarding of, why people on this forum feel a need to proclaim their hetrosexuality in each of their posts, I'm really not sure why it happens. To be honest I don't see to many on here proclaiming the "I'm not gay" unless it does indeed pertain to the original post in the thread. I do believe that the original post does not have to be about sexual orientation or sexual fantasy to warrant a person replying in the thread "I'm not gay" and still be in complete and validated context to post that proclamation. Obviously if it is a thread that is talking about for example,nail polish, stating whether you are straight or gay has absolutely no business in being such a post in these forums.

Like I said though, I do not notice the "I'm not gay" being introjected as much as some of you do. Perhaps, and only perhaps, you may notice this phrase more because it bothers you more than it may bother others. As human beings as a whole, in general, we do tend to notice things that bother our own-self, more so than others who which it does not bother. Over all I don't think it is necessary to proclaim in ever post you make your sexual orientation. I can understand how that can be offensive to some, and annoying to others. I can also understand some peoples motives and self needs to make such proclamation. I believe also that the best way to solve problems between people is to discuss openly. It could be positive to say why you do feel the need to state your sexual orientation and it could be just as positive to say why this bothers you when people to state that their orientation. I tend to believe that we as humans often hate because of fear, and often fear out of mis-understandings.

For the broader scope of this entire thread, I do have a few thoughts of some of the overall mood in this thread.

Both gender and orientation are on two different spectrum's. They are indeed two separate entities. That being said most people generally equate the two as being the same thing. It is embedded in our society, and for the most part the most reoccurring social tendency is for masculine men and feminine females to both be attracted to each other. However just like some people like might like certain types food more than other types, or someone may be very tall or short, there are variances in humans in both sexual orientation and gender roles and/or identities. I think some of these variances are cause by nature and some by nurture, and some a combination of the two. However it is important to realize that these variances do exist. Some of these variances are more accepted in the larger part of society than other variances. In my personal views and experiences, it is not totally positive in society to be gay or lesbian or bisexual. There are a lot of reasons why this is the case, but to a large degree the lack of acceptance has to do with mis-understanding and fear. It is also in my experience that being under the trans-gender umbrella (CD, TS, TV, Drag, gender queer, ect...) is less acceptable and even more mis-understood and feared.

Often times, as the result of society generalizing gender and sexual orientation as being the same, being somewhere under the trans-gendered umbrella results in others judging your sexual orientation to being gay. Thus many people may feel the need to clarify their sexual orientation when discussing their gender differences.

There also maybe more regional differences in understanding LGBTQ issues as a whole. For instance I've been to many gay bars where anyone the management supports anyone's orientation or gender differences. However not all patron's do. I find many people in the LGBTQ community around where I live (East TN) to be lacking in the issues and understanding of their whole community. Thus many people are extremely surprised when I tell them what gender I'm attracted to. However I've been to other regional places where this does not occur as frequently. However the more information, understanding, and familiarity an individual has on the subject of LGBTQ issues, generally speaking they are not surprised when in fact I do tell them when they ask the question of my sexuality.

Some things to think about:

I've read a few posts in this thread pertaining to the idea that there are more CDers than are willing to admit who are bi-curious, or are fully attracted to males, because CDers are trying to be woman and that feminine woman want to be with a man, and that many on here have had curious thoughts about being with a male when dressed as female. Well maybe they really are not gay, bi-curious, or bi at all. Maybe those thoughts come to them because they think that that is what a woman is supposed to do, be with a man, it is what society tells us to do. So for them to make logic of their CDing they believe that they are bi, gay, or bi-curious.

Also, think about this, why do CD's get mad when being called a tranny, or drag queen?

If all masculine men that are straight like to be with femminine women, how do we explain the females that are very tomboyish and sometimes outdoorsy which are with masculine men?

What about tall women with short men?

Bottom line is that we all have variances in who we are as people. I believe that for the most part that gender and sexual orientation variances are unique and positive. There is a divide between much of the LGBTQ community, and we need start educating ourselves, and accepting all of our differences before we can help each other and make positive impacts and gather more support from society in large.

Lets start living and let live.

BTW, I thought all Canadians did say "Eh"

GaleWarning

01-21-2011, 12:47 AM

Getting to the basic question of the post regarding of, why people on this forum feel a need to proclaim their hetrosexuality in each of their posts, I'm really not sure why it happens.

I'll give you a short answer to this question.

It's because too many members find it difficult to remember that although many of us use female names on this site, and some of us use gender-neutral names, not all of us like being referred to as "girls", as in "Hi girls."

Whenever this happens and my gender/sexuality is confused/abused in this way, I make a point of reminding the poster that I am a heterosexual male who happens to like wearing women's clothing.

Tamara has actually posted a "sticky", so big is the problem.

Rianna Humble

01-21-2011, 03:04 AM

NicoleScott

01-21-2011, 07:41 AM

I understand up to a point, Clay, but don't quite follow how addressing you wrongly as a girl challenges your sexuality.

I understand up to a point, Rianna, but don't quite follow how stating MY sexuality offends YOU.

DaphneGrey

01-21-2011, 08:08 AM

DaphneGrey

01-21-2011, 08:17 AM

Lucy_Bella

01-21-2011, 12:26 PM

I'll give you a short answer to this question.

It's because too many members find it difficult to remember that although many of us use female names on this site, and some of us use gender-neutral names, not all of us like being referred to as "girls", as in "Hi girls."

Whenever this happens and my gender/sexuality is confused/abused in this way, I make a point of reminding the poster that I am a heterosexual male who happens to like wearing women's clothing.

Tamara has actually posted a "sticky", so big is the problem.
Clay,

Funny you mention that , I have always felt a little offended when called a girl even tho I can understand why most choose to refer to us that way. I am not a TS and I do not wish to become a female, I just have a dressing fetish .

While dressed I still act the same as in DRAB , I walk talk and move as a male (prolly cause I am one)..I do not feel I am denying anything while feeling this way to me it's natural just as many here feel it is natural to want to be a girl..

This is one of the biggest reasons I feel what I do is a curse, due to and not only because of emulating a girl in apperance but remaining as a male inside. If I was to be more opened about the emulating as many here are ,then I would think IMHO that in doing so is letting the world know I do wish to be a girl. I am not open because of that reason .

I know hard to understand , we are what we are I suppose and in saying that would be confessing to others by being open to the world " Hey look everyone I want to be a girl"!!

Rianna Humble

01-21-2011, 12:51 PM

I understand up to a point, Rianna, but don't quite follow how stating MY sexuality offends YOU.

For those who missed it in all of my previous contributions, I am not offended by a statement of sexuality where it adds something to the discussion or helps to explain the poster's point of view on a particular subject.

As I have said on multiple occasions in this thread, what does offend me is people who have to ram their sexuality down others' throats when it has no bearing on the discussion.

Without seeking to judge Clay in any way, I feel stating his sexuality because he was wrongly addressed as a girl adds nothing positive to the correction.

To try to make my point even more plain, I will take two hypothetical examples:

1 In a thread about relationships, I feel a statement of sexuality would be totally appropriate and might even add to the discussion. If I were contributing and felt that it would explain my thinking, I might state my sexuality in such a context.

2 In a thread about how to apply eye-liner, I feel that a statement of sexuality is inappropriate and may be offensive if expressed by a negative.

GaleWarning

01-21-2011, 01:35 PM

I understand up to a point, Clay, but don't quite follow how addressing you wrongly as a girl challenges your sexuality.

Do you not think that "I am a male who happens to like wearing women's clothing" would be sufficient response to someone saying "Hi girls"?

It doesn't challenge my sexuality, Rianna. It annoys me that people who do this are thoughtless and disrespectful of the person I am. Is it asking too much to expect people to always bear in mind that there are many of us here who have not the slightest desire to be female? That, and the fact that Tamara's "sticky" is ignored time and time again will ALWAYS cause me to be blunt almost to the point of rudeness on this issue.

And in response to this quote from Lucy ...

This is one of the biggest reasons I feel what I do is a curse, due to and not only because of emulating a girl in apperance but remaining as a male inside. If I was to be more opened about the emulating as many here are ,then I would think IMHO that in doing so is letting the world know I do wish to be a girl. I am not open because of that reason .

There is no need for you to feel that you need to be open to emulating a girl in appearance. Your dressing fetish, like mine, focuses on the clothes (outward raiment), probably because you and I are extremely tactile and imaginative. I know that my mind is not confused or guilt-ridden about who I am. I suspect that you will eventually reach the same conclusion.

minalost

01-21-2011, 04:01 PM

Wow, this thread has really opened my mind up to some things.

1) I have been one of those who tend to open my threads with, “Hi Girls/Ladies…” or some such, under the assumption that all the people on this site would feel as I do about being addressed in a fem mode. Bad Mina: I hereby promise to not do that any more!

2) Some of us here are way too quick to take offence at things that are not meant to be offensive! The whole chip on the shoulder “I’m going to pick apart everything I read and hunt up every possible offence and slam the poster…” attitude is truly ridiculous. I know that I’ve read at least two threads this week alone where the OP has had his/her thread totally hi-jacked by someone ranting about how offended they were by the way the poster said something.

3) Some of us here (and I may have been part of this group… hopefully no more) are way too insensitive to the feelings of others. We need to all be aware of the diversity of this group and to clarify, as much as is reasonable, points and generalizations that we make so as to avoid offending people. Let me stress “as much as is reasonable.” It is not reasonable to amend and footnote EVERY comment just avoid offending every possible person you could offend, but we should all try to avoid the most obvious pit traps.

We need to find a middle ground. Let’s all be a little more forgiving of out fellows here – I don’t think we have too many professional writers, so some of our post may not stand up to those standards, so let’s all give each other a break!

And as far as declaring you sexual orientation? I agree with Rianna: it should only be brought up when it’s truly relevant to the conversation. But to be offended when it’s not relevant? Just ignore it and move on! If it’s really bad, send the poster a PM and let them know, as politely as possible, what you think.
:2c:

TracyBoy

01-21-2011, 05:51 PM

I really like this thread, even when it takes other direction. I am a closeted gay crossdresser and sometimes I feel an urge to come out but I always back up because of fear of the consequences also in part of because I can't really accept myself being either gay or crossdresser. I know self acceptance is the most important thing but I feel I am struggling with acceptance at the moment.

Barbara, is it possible that you are having a hard time accepting yourself as gay because you are afraid of what others will think of you? For me, I find that more and more that when I see a pretty girl I'm thinking of what they are wearing and how they made themselves look pretty, and when I see a pretty guy I'm thinking of how sexy their body is in that clothing. I'm leaning towards more gay then straight- but my point is that I don't have to come out to other people. I'm coming out to myself, and that's all that really matters. Gay, straight, bi, whatever- I am who I am and as long as I like who I am, then I'm fine with it. I've seen your photos as a guy, and as a girl- and I think that the "real" Barbara is a very BEAUTIFUL personality inside of your body! Don't worry about how you are labeled.:rose2:

Anneliese

01-22-2011, 09:30 AM

I am a male CDer who has never had a gay experience...up to this point. I have never claimed to be straight, nor have I ever said I wasn't gay, here or elsewhere. I love dressing in women's clothes. I am turned on by (some...increasingly less) women and by (close to) passing CDs, TSs, etc. I have never really been turned on by a man, so far at least, and I can't see ever being turned on by a "manly man". However, I am turned on by the idea of someday experiencing different plumbing, no matter the form or orientation. This means I don't rule out anything, although staying celebate the rest of my life is the most likely option. The men I would be attracted to would be more like me...gender-bending sorts.

I too have been offended, at times, by posters who regularly throw in the "I'm not gay", or bring up their spouse as (I believe) a defense mechanism. To each their own, but it seems bizarre to me that a Cder wouldn't admit to being bi-curious. After all, their dressing indicates they are, in my opinion.

I can say many of the people in my life have suspected I might be gay, including my ex-wife, former girlfriends, women who have shown an interest in me and been spurned, some members of my family etc. I have always openly defended gay marriage, admitted to what I'd do if faced with a "Crying Game" moment, as well as stating my favorite movie of the last twenty years is probably "Hedwig and the Angry Inch".

To quote Tranny Tee from above, I have always said, "I y'am what I y'am..."

I agree with those who say sexual orientation should really only come up when it's pertinent, especially here. However I also believe in free speech, so I don't think anyone should have posts edited or deleted for mentioning it.

Janice Lester

01-22-2011, 12:06 PM

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days now and thinking about when the "I'm not" bothers me. There is the very long thread about would you consider dating a guy and I think that is the place it really got to me. People would pop in to say yes or no to the question but then others would phrase it so that to me it came out more along the lines of "of course not, that is wrong" No one actually wrote, it was more the impression I was left with.

DaphneGrey

01-22-2011, 10:38 PM

DaphneGrey

02-01-2011, 07:52 AM

No clue. I like manwiches so I have no idea aside from crossdressing does not instantly mean you are not some homophobic bigot?

Perhaps you are correct Stephanie and Crossdressing does not instantly mean you are not some homophobic bigot. Much the same way being transexual certainly doesn't make you a lady!

I get that you like stop into these threads so you can tell and everybody you are a transexual, work in that you are straight and manage to voice your disdain for us transgender folk who are searching for balance in our lives without transitioning.

If you really need go through all that to make yourself feel good you could at least try and offer something constructive to the conversation.

Stephanie47

02-01-2011, 01:39 PM

As a completely heterosexual male, who happens to be a cross-dresser, I can understand why we say we are not gay. It's because the uninformed and misinformed think we are gay. When I was young I had been propositioned by gay men, even in the presence of my wife! Go figure how brazen some people can be. Of course, my wife would have gotten her claws out if that person was a woman too. If as a cross-dresser you are out in an establishment or event that has gay men, then I believe it is wise to declare your sexual preferences. Why waste time and drinks on someone that is unattainable. I would hope a lesbian would declare to a male that she is not available in the same manner. There are many heterosexuals who limit dating to their own select group- ethnic, religion, etc. I am a stay at home cross-dresser. I don't have to field that question other than to have reassure my wife.

As to bi-curious? As a male in male attire- nope, never. En femme- it's a fantasy that will remain a fantasy just as wanting to make love to an unattainable beautiful woman remains a fantasy. Sometimes it is better to keep a fantasy a fantasy. Sometimes realizing a fantasy does not meet the person's expectation.

Rianna Humble

02-01-2011, 07:46 PM

In the context that you quote, Stephanie, it is completely proportionate to declare your preference.

Where some of us find it inappropriate is on threads in these forums which have no bearing on sexuality or availability for any kind of relationship.

Melinda Lou

02-01-2011, 07:52 PM

I think this has a lot to do with not wanting to be labeled, and not have our thoughts and feelings defined for us according to a stereotype that someone else has in mind without knowing our whole stories. My wife and I have a good friend who's gay, who doesn't know I CD. As far as I know, he doesn't CD himself--he's a "bear" who's into other "bears", generally (so he's a hairy burly dude who likes hairy burly dudes). He wouldn't want to be labeled a drag queen because he's gay anymore than I'd want to be labeled as gay because I crossdress.

Fab Karen

02-01-2011, 08:01 PM

First, "what you mean we, kimmosabe?"
Otherwise, you're making a good point. Those who CONSTANTLY spout off where it isn't necessary just sound like Larry Craig holding that press conference.

BRANDYJ

02-01-2011, 08:24 PM

What was the question? Oh yeah, Why are we so afraid of being thought of being gay.

The short and simple answer is; I am a male to female crossdresser, I am also a male that is submissive to his woman, I also smoke cigarettes. So that males me a submissive crossdressing smoker. Gee, so now if anyone labels me with one more minority thing, it would be just to much! lol One more label and no one would think of me as just what I am. That is a normal red blooded American male that happens to like women.

juno

02-01-2011, 09:10 PM

I think most crossdressers worry far less about being considered gay than the average male. What makes people upset is that so many people think there are just two classes of gender variations, straight and gay. They think you are not a normal male and must therefore be gay, oblivious to the diversity of crossdressers, transsexuals, intersex, bisexual, etc.

Personally, I don't mind if people incorrectly think I might be gay, because I don't think there is anything wrong with homosexuality. Well, except for my wife. She knows the real me, and nobody else really needs to know.

Frédérique

02-01-2011, 09:48 PM

Why are we so afraid of being thought of as Gay?

I don’t mind being thought of as gay at all, so THERE…:hmph:

It seems that many in our community can’t make any type of comment on any thing without working into the post "I am not gay". Any and all thoughts would be appreciated.

I'm glad you asked...

It’s because we aren’t to the point where people are beyond making distinctions between one person and another – it’s all about strength and weakness (in their minds), and perceived weakness is a bad thing that needs to be avoided, marginalized, or eliminated, for the good of society. Sensibilities are bad, unless you’re making money (and using power) being in touch with them, and communication via feelings is also bad, in the eyes of those who run the world…

Therefore, even in this “community” of semi-forgotten souls, being homosexual carries certain connotations that some people cannot stomach, for one reason or another. It’s surprising to me that this prejudice exists here, of all places, but, on the other hand, it’s an enlightening look into the minds of crossdressers in all their myriad forms. Sadly, just because a man dresses as a woman now and then does not necessarily imbue him with non-masculine characteristics, and a golden opportunity to gain understanding for “alternative” human sexuality is lost or neglected. Add to this that the image of male homosexuality has changed over the years, yet some people still prefer the effeminate stereotype and ACT upon that. Here in America, males are very insecure with their sexuality, and that fact tinges every expression, be it crossdressing or the words that are written supposedly in support of it…
:straightface:

NathalieX66

02-01-2011, 10:13 PM

Being thought of as gay?... by who? ....My GF? ...My friends? ....gay guys?

I am a pretty boring heterosexual, but as long as I go out in public dressed as a woman, I am the T in LGBT. I'm happy being thought of as transgender.

I've taken some interest in LGBT issues even though I'm not interested in participating in activism.

DaphneGrey

02-02-2011, 08:06 AM

I don’t mind being thought of as gay at all, so THERE…:hmph:

I'm glad you asked...

It’s because we aren’t to the point where people are beyond making distinctions between one person and another – it’s all about strength and weakness (in their minds), and perceived weakness is a bad thing that needs to be avoided, marginalized, or eliminated, for the good of society. Sensibilities are bad, unless you’re making money (and using power) being in touch with them, and communication via feelings is also bad, in the eyes of those who run the world…

Therefore, even in this “community” of semi-forgotten souls, being homosexual carries certain connotations that some people cannot stomach, for one reason or another. It’s surprising to me that this prejudice exists here, of all places, but, on the other hand, it’s an enlightening look into the minds of crossdressers in all their myriad forms. Sadly, just because a man dresses as a woman now and then does not necessarily imbue him with non-masculine characteristics, and a golden opportunity to gain understanding for “alternative” human sexuality is lost or neglected. Add to this that the image of male homosexuality has changed over the years, yet some people still prefer the effeminate stereotype and ACT upon that. Here in America, males are very insecure with their sexuality, and that fact tinges every expression, be it crossdressing or the words that are written supposedly in support of it…
:straightface:

I love your posts! Thank you this was very insightful:)

DebsUK

02-02-2011, 08:56 AM

This thread has had more people missing the point than a broken pencil support group and more circular arguments than a public speaking society that only debates the merits of carousels. The ones complainig most about labels only seem botherd by labels when it's about being gay. Proclaiming you aren't gay is yet another label that quite a few are whinig about not wanting to be labelled are keen to wear

Jessica86

02-02-2011, 12:34 PM

I'm not out to impress anyone either, just doing what I love. If I ever did go out to a meeting, it wouldn't matter. I got a ring on my finger, so that's all they get to know.

LitaKelley

02-02-2011, 04:21 PM

I don't care what other people think, strangers that is.. Of course my friends and family members that I've told about me being transgender did ask and I said no. As for being out in public, etc and people thinking whatever, I really don't care. There was a point a few months back when I did, however, I reached a point awhile back when drab consisted of womens jeans and top with womens sneakers, etc and I would still have eyeliner on, sometimes my nails were pink, and my wife said to me "Put your wig and boobs on, you look like a homo" and I had to think about it for a second and realized, "I don't care" and would continue on out the door as I was.

When I think about it, I suppose I could be considered gay, if I look at it that I am a woman attracted to women and perhaps someday I will have the body of a woman and end up being a lesbian

DaphneGrey

02-03-2011, 05:38 AM

First, "what you mean we, kimmosabe?"
Otherwise, you're making a good point. Those who CONSTANTLY spout off where it isn't necessary just sound like Larry Craig holding that press conference.

Hey Tonto :D I mean many or some but not all.

Angiemead12

02-03-2011, 07:12 AM

patti.jean

02-03-2011, 12:09 PM

Being Transgender and being part of the gay community is more about humanity then your sexuality. I know it is difficult for many of us and our families, who have never associated with the gay community, to embrace this. We may think being transgendered has enough stigma without mixing gay into it. The following are some points on how embracing the gay community has been beneficial for me.

Acceptance
Since the beginning when I started going out I have been going to gay bars and have always been accepted. Now gay bars are one of my venues of choice, not only for the acceptance but also socially as a place, where I have friends. Then there are many transgendered events hosted by the local gay bars, of course there are the drag shows, but there is also much more. In Western Michigan the Douglas Dunes Resort host one of the largest TG weekend events twice a year. The TG community is always welcomed at the Dunes but these weekends the emphasis is on the TG community. There is much more that I could go into but the gay community does accept us and is compassionate about TG equality. There are also other local bars that support the transgendered community with events.

Support
In Western Michigan, we have recently started a transgendered support group as part of The Network, a local GLBT organization. We started out small but at our last monthly meeting had a broad range of TG demographics represented. There were CDs just coming out, a 13 year old FTM with his mother and grandmother with him, and a broad spectrum of CDs. It was heartwarming to be able to answer so many questions at the meeting and the support has continued with exchanges of emails and follow up meetings. I have been part of this group for several months and it is great to see our vision fulfilled of lessening the pain for others that we have all experienced. What started out with just few people is growing and making a difference. This would never have happen without the support of the The Network and the gay community.

Patti

kimdl93

02-03-2011, 12:20 PM

Im afraid to be though of as gay because my father would have a heart attack.

I recently accepted that it would be ok with me and my partner if society thought I was gay. As long as we know the truth along with our friends then why should we care.

But its tricky as I am a business man and Im also afraid of what may happen to my business partners!

What to do?!

This is valid concern. We quite reasonably assume that people holding deep seated prejudices may act upon those prejudices to our detriment . I've worked with a number of openly gay men and women who were successful in overcoming this prejudice, but I can only imagine the obstacles they faced along the way.

I have never worked with an individual was openly a cross dresser, and if I worked with anyone who was in transition or already had transitioned, I didn't know it. Clearly, we have a reasonable fear of hurting ouselves professionally by being open about ourselves to co-workers, clients or customers.

TNRobin

02-03-2011, 02:42 PM

I tell people that I'm not gay fairly frequently because I'm either asked or it's assumed. I've had guys try to buy me drinks either thinking that I was a woman or more likely because they had some desire be "with" a CD and I've always refused and explained to them that I'm a straight, heterosexual male that happens to crossdress.

This is also why I'm not at all active in the whole LGBT thing. From what I've seen it only furthers the stereotype that CDs, the "T" of the group, are also gay or at least bi-sexual. The LGBT movement had a purpose when it started and got things done that needed to be done, but from what I've seen and heard from those that are most active in LGBT issues is the idea that "we want to be equal, just a little more equal than anyone else." By that I'm referring to things like the ridiculous "hate crimes' issue. Assaults and murder are already illegal, so as a CD that's also in a wheelchair if someone were to kill me and be sentenced to death for doing so, should they be put to death 3 times; brought back to life and killed again, just because it's a "hate crime?"

This post may not make me popular, but I'm not in a popularity contest. I'm who I am and no one else. When I'm dressed I try to pass and take it as a compliment when someone says that I do. But when someone assumes or asks that I'm gay I will let them know otherwise.