Transitioning, Sexuality and Labels - MtF

[PortiaHoney]

I was reading another thread where the question was asked about why so many CD's make it a point of stressing that they are not gay. Which got me thinking. When we are transitioning, at which points of the transition are we straight, gay or bi?

When do you or your partner possibly consider yourselves gay and how do others see your relationship in these terms?

Ok. So I am gentically a male. But, I am psychologically and sociologically a female. I am Pre-Op MtF. I live completely as a female, including my sexual preferences (ergo - men). In my previous life, I was attracted to women and therefore "straight". I was also attracted to certain types of males at rare times, so perhaps "bi" is a better term? But, I never had a sexual relationship with a man - so I must have been "straight"? I should point out that I do not care for labels such as straight, gay, lesbian or bi.

I had a girl at work (I transitioned at work) ask me if I like men or women. I told her I like men. Her response was - "So, you are gay then?". To which I asked her if she liked men. "Yes" was her response. "So, does that make you gay?" Otherwise, she doesn't see me as a woman! She never asked me again.

So, now both men and women see me as a woman on a social level. I frequently get men who may be interested in me but wanting to suck my "####" or have me perform as a male would on them. But, they stress they are not gay because I am a woman. But, if I insist that I will do anything that a genetic woman would do apart from the obvious lack of a particular female function that I do not possess, they get all upset and lose interest, expecially when I make it clear that my "####" is a no go zone.

Then there is the other side of the coin. I get CD's (MtF) who insist they are straight and only interested in women (this bit is right, I'm a woman) wanting me to act in the male role and fullfill their fantasy of letting them playing the female role (this bit is wrong, I'm THE woman).

So, is a Tgirl who is pre-op and interested in men gay? At what point in her transition is she considered straight?

Is a CD who is interested in Tgirls who are pre-op and wanting them to fullfill a male role gay? If he sticks with her until she becomes a post-op Tgirl does that make then him straight?

Is a man who is exclusively interested in pre-op Tgirls gay? And does that then make her gay simply by being in the relationship? And, if she goes post-op and he loses interest, does she then revert to being straight?

Is a Tgirl who is pre-op and interested in women gay? Or does she become gay by going post-op and retaining this relationship?

If a Tgirl meets a Tboy and they have a relationship. then this must be a straight relationship regardless of any surgeries that take place, surely?

And we need labels - why?

[Melody Moore]

Personally I believe that part-time MtF cross-dressers are gay if they seek out men, or a MtF Transsexual with the
view of having gay type sex with them. However for the MtF Transsexual who sees themselves as female 24/7 it's a
different story if they seek out men, its therefore heterosexual sex. If a MtF Transsexual has sex with a female it is
a lesbian affair regardless of whether or not penetration is involved or not.

Although I have not had sex yet with a male, I would feel the same as you if they want to perform oral sex on me
or expect me to use my penis on them. I have had lots of guys hitting on me expecting this but I won't go there yet.

So yeah, my penis is definitely a 'no go zone' for sure with a male.

Also the same as you, I never had sex with a male, apart from several occasions when I was sexually abused as a child.
The guy who abused me performed oral sex on me and forced me to perform oral sex on him. He nearly choked me and
I was throwing up & felt very sick afterwards. This has had a profound affect on me when it comes to females who want
to perform oral sex on me. I'm reminded every time of what I went through as a child & feel sick if a woman tries it with me.

I am open to the idea of a heterosexual type relationship with a male but refuse to have sex until after my SRS. I already
know that even after I have my SRS I will still refuse to have sex with any male if there is no real emotional connection.

However I will have lesbian sex with a female, but I have no desire whatsoever to use my penis for penetration.
I would rather perform oral sex & use a sex aid on a female while having them mutually satisfying me in a similar
way. But I don't want oral sex or to penetrate another female as a male, because it really does nothing for me.
I consider myself bisexual who is open to a heterosexual relationship with a male but consider myself mainly still
a lesbian. I have a girlfriend I see from time to time who now sees me as a female & considers our relationship a
lesbian relationship. So I hope this answers most of your questions.

[Jorja]

OMG, now I have a headache!!!

I think we spend way too much time trying to figure things like this out. If it feels good and you and your partner like it, do it! What goes on behind closed doors is no ones business except you and your partners. Let the rest of the world that can't figure out how to feed the starving, care for the elderly, or tie thier own shoelaces worry about what they want to call us. I call myself happy as hell and sexually satisified.

[MJ]

I am open to the idea of a heterosexual type relationship with a male but refuse to have sex until after my SRS. I already
know that even after I have my SRS I will still refuse to have sex with any male if there is no real emotional connection.



i just don't have time to justify my actions. labels are just labels are you gay ...answr is yes have a nice day 99% of people are fine with that.
@ my age finding a human being to share my life is next to impossible. i just want to live my life. if he/she comes along great if not great.

yes i am post op but consider myself gay, gay just makes life easy

[AnnaCalliope]

I started out male, very heterosexual, bedding numerous women in the hopes that my "fetish" for girls' clothing would depart. When that didn't work, I started going out en femme and experimenting with guys. Then a did a bit of back and forth. For a while, I just gave on sex altogether. Now I'm completely gay for men, though I increasingly find myself becoming mentally and emotionally female. I dress en femme daily, and will only interact sexually with guys. I still love women, but no longer in a sexual nature. So I went from Straight Male > Bisexual Male > Asexual Male > Gay Male who plans on transitioning into a Straight Female. Who knows? Maybe this time a couple years from now, I'll be a Bi Female.

[Michelle I]

As my therapist has said, "labels are for soup cans and other like product." I am a human being, who is trying to become a better person. How I present as myself or my sexual orientation is no ones concern but my own.

[Michelle James]

OMG, now I have a headache!!!

I think we spend way too much time trying to figure things like this out. If it feels good and you and your partner like it, do it! What goes on behind closed doors is no ones business except you and your partners. Let the rest of the world that can't figure out how to feed the starving, care for the elderly, or tie thier own shoelaces worry about what they want to call us. I call myself happy as hell and sexually satisified.

Well said and I could'nt agree more.

[PortiaHoney]

OMG, now I have a headache!!!


Me too. I think way too much.

Thanks for your comments girls. I also don't "like" labels either. I was more curious as to how others feel after reading the "I CD but I'm not gay" thread. The TG part was more about my own journey and how it relates to that question. This is something that people do ask about and living full time and openly transitioning, the question does come up quite frequently. Others like to fit you into a category and we really don't fit in any particular one for very long.

Sexuality is fluid, and moreso for us. I think it is highly influenced by our own identity as much as anything physical. Maybe being transgendered gives us more freedom to be ourselves instead of fitting into a "category" and remaining there?

But most of all I have learned to just be myself.

[Michelle.M]

So far this is one of the better discussions I have seen here, and gives me plenty to consider as it pertains to myself. I just hope this thread stays solid and doesn't disintegrate into a labelfest.

[Aprilrain]

I'Ve been forced to revamp every thing I thought I knew about human sexuality. I must have been sick the day we went over CDing and transsexualism in health class.
The other day I was talking with a lesbian GG who is dating a rather beautiful pre op M2F transsexual. What I said to her was I'm Physically and emotional attracted to women (at least for now) but sexually attracted to men. She totally got it and pointed out that there indeed was a difference between physical and sexual attraction. What's funny is I've always seen myself as a heterosexual woman sexually even as a kid but have only ever experimented with a man once, I was drunk and it was brief. I have never identified with being gay. This caused me a lot of confusion and angst until recently when I finally came to terms with being TS, It all makes sense now!

I think a lot of the confusion comes in to play because we live in a world where collectively the male sexual identity is threatened by any overt male femininity. Male homosexuality is perceived as femininity. I've been spending a lot of time with gay men and women lately and can say that A. most of the men are indistinguishable from heterosexual men, you would not know they were gay unless they told you and B. even the most flamboyantly gay men can be chauvinistic pigs. So while their flamboyancy may appear as femininity to the untrained eye it is different.

[Melody Moore]

i just don't have time to justify my actions.
MJ noone is asking you to justify anything, I wasn't justifying anything either I was just being 100% open & honest here
about my sexuality. My understanding on how percieve sexual orientation is my own point of view which is also based
around documented information from QAHC who I am involved with as a Volunteer for Transgender Community Education.
See Page 13 of Supporting Transgender & Sistergirl Clients (http://atsaq.com/files/Supporting%20Transgender%20and%20Sistergirl%20Web% 20verision.pdf).


Trans people may identify as heterosexual, bisexual, gay, lesbian and asexual.
For example:
• Trans men attracted to women may identify as heterosexual
• Trans men attracted to men may identify as gay
• Trans women attracted to both men and women may identify as bisexual
• Trans women attracted to women may identify as a lesbian

A trans person’s sexuality/sexual identity is not dictated by their surgical status or bodily state.The OP was asking questions about labels, so I thought I answered that in the best way
I could using myself as an example. So isn't that how I pretty much explained things MJ?

Also MJ, I see you as a female, not a male. So if you like men then in my PERSONAL OPINION I see you as
a heterosexual female. However I do consider myself gay (lesbian) because I still prefer to be with females.

And just like you MJ I am not 'looking' for anything right now either, because sex really does
not matter to me. And ike I said an emotional connection with someone I really value most of
all and if I don't have that with a person, then its NO SEX. So what is wrong with that eh?

Some folks like to use labels, whereas others don't, so why should someone like me be put down if I choose to use labels?

It's a case of 'Each to their own' is it not?


I just hope this thread stays solid and doesn't disintegrate into a labelfest.
I agree but having said that I also hope that it doesn't turn into an 'anti-labelfest' either. ;)


Male homosexuality is perceived as femininity. I've been spending a lot of time with gay men and women lately and can say that A. most of the men are indistinguishable from heterosexual men, you would not know they were gay unless they told you and B. even the most flamboyantly gay men can be chauvinistic pigs. So while their flamboyancy may appear as femininity to the untrained eye it is different.
Good points you brought up here April, I have noticed that as well with gay men in
my local GLBTI community. Some gay men I have met are very crude to females.

[kym]

I hate it when people ask me what my sexual orientation is when they don't understand the inner workings of our brains. I have thought about this numerous times because I used to get asked that question several times a day. Best answer I have come up with tends to confuse them into not asking again, I simply tell everyone that I am "pansexual" in other words since my brain and my body do not match each other, I do not have an attraction to people based on their gender but rather who they are or the inside, male or female. Having said that I am MTF and married to a wonderful woman that at one time identified as straight but is now telling everyone who asks(and yes she gets the question too) that she is Bi and in a lesbian relationship with me, the looks on everyones faces when she says this is priceless. If we must have labels then pansexual is the broadest term I can think of, however I myself do not like labels society places on people.

[Traci Elizabeth]

I love the "labels belong on Soup Cans" response.

I am not sure how M2F transsexuals who have been on strong HRT reigns for any length of time could possibly preform with their pre-op genitalia. I sure can't.

No one has asked me my sexual orientation. What an odd question for someone to ask another person. If anyone were to ask me such a private question other than family, I would respond with the label called, "Surely you don't really expect me to answer that very intrusive question into my personal life?" I don't think they would pursue the question again.

I guess my difference is that I have always felt I was female and have had relationships and friendships exclusively with women. I have actually never had a male as a personal friend. Not even as a child.

So what "label" would I use to describe myself? "Surely you..."

[MJ]

MJ noone is asking you to justify anything, I wasn't justifying anything either I was just being 100% open & honest here
about my sexuality.
Also MJ, I see you as a female, not a male. So if you like men then in my PERSONAL OPINION I see you as
a heterosexual female. However I do consider myself gay (lesbian) because I still prefer to be with females.

And just like you MJ I am not 'looking' for anything right now either, because sex really does
not matter to me. And ike I said an emotional connection with someone I really value most of
all and if I don't have that with a person, then its NO SEX. So what is wrong with that eh?

.

i meant in the real world, i am in the makeup and hair industry. therefore to cut hair or apply makeup you must be Italian or gay ...and I'm not Italian :straightface:
i have a male voice and being seen as gay is fine. women seem to be more relaxed around gay or trans people there just lables

[Rogina B]

Absolutely right on that..MJ !!

[Hope]

OMG, now I have a headache!!!

No kidding. I am just trying to figure out the gender issue, and when I get that figured out, perhaps sexuality will make more sense... but until then...

[Melody Moore]

No kidding. I am just trying to figure out the gender issue, and when I get that figured out, perhaps sexuality will make more sense... but until then...

If I ever get asked 'Are you gay?' I then ask the person 'What do I look like to you? a male or female?' They always seem to answer 'female'. So then I tell them 'Well I am a bisexual female who is predominately a lesbian because my sexual preferences are for females, but I would consider a heterosexual relationship with the right male.'

Anyway, why are you even trying to figure out the gender issue? Do you not see yourself as a female? if so then shouldn't your sexuality be based around that? Who cares what other's think? I know who I am and what my sexual preferences are & that is all that matters really, so I don't care really what others think. If others think I am a gay male, then they are truly ignorant so I will try my best to educate them. If I am not successful (not that has ever happened), then I would just walk away & don't let their opinions bother me.

If labels with gender & sexuality are ever to be applied, then they should be applied to how we see ourselves, not around what others think in regards to my gender or my sexuality.

[CharleneT]

No kidding. I am just trying to figure out the gender issue, and when I get that figured out, perhaps sexuality will make more sense... but until then...

Transition will cause your ideas of sexuality to go out the window. It is easier, maybe even called best, to just go with the flow and see where it leads. The trick is that you will change, but some parts likely won't. If you change gender and your sexuality stays constant, you will by default, change orientation ! Clear as mud yet ?

I agree with all the headaches going 'round this thread, but I also applaud anyone with the guts to ask about this issue early on !! It is often the elephant in the room, with no clothes on ;) {mixing my metaphores with wild abandon}.

[Stephanie Anne]

Our community likes to make people have headaches with labels.

I'm a male assigned at birth trans woman who is sexually lusting after men and was never attracted to women except for a brief 2 year relationship when I was 19.

As a woman, I don't associate as gay but as a straight woman. As a male to female transsexual in the middle of transition, I do accept the label as gay because I am attracted to men and lived 30+ years as one and have the anatomy still.

[Karen564]

I don't know how else to put it.....I'm not a man & I'm not gay...

Maybe that coworker only asked because she was interested in you & wanted to know your preferences....that's all..

[Melody Moore]

Transition will cause your ideas of sexuality to go out the window..
Not just transitioning will cause your ideas about sexuality to go out the window, this happens to many people who are struggling to understand & accept their true sexuality, albeit gay, lesbian or bisexual. Gender identity & Sexual orientation is not binary like many people in society assume, it never was. it has always been fluid. Western religious based bigotry is what is the fundamental reason why so many people question it or have issues with it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXI9w0PbBXY

[Gabriella77]

I have been and always will be a bisexual (pretty close to straight down the middle as far as who i am attracted to, maybe a slight tilt towards females) in what is socially seen as a lesbian relationship but truthfully its a dual bisexual relationship as my partner was and still is bisexual as well so for us we have many options open for us later in life. :devil:

[tanyalynn51]

This has given me a headache too. My apologies that in the end I just couldnt read all of the posts and explanations of what it is supposed to mean if you are this or that or feel this or that. I am a woman born with the wrong parts. I know some dont like that way of saying it, but it is useful for here. That said, I have zero interest in men. I dont hate men- have several great friends. But, I am only interested in women. When I get finished with all of this, the only relationship I would want is with a woman. Ive been told by some this means I am a lesbian, including my bestfriend, who is a gg and a lesbian herself. Her girlfriend isnt sure about that, but doesnt say no completely to the idea other. My therapist says long term hormone use may still change this, but it still hasnt.

[Melody Moore]

My therapist says long term hormone use may still change this, but it still hasnt.

How long have you been on hormones Tanya? No offence, but didn't you start fairly recently then had issues where you had to stop taking them? So how will you know how your sexual orientations might change over the course of time? I refuse to go out with a guy at the moment who expects sex because I am still pre-op. However I know already that when I have had SRS that a normal heterosexual relationship with a male is something I do want to experience now I have accept I am truly a female.

[tanyalynn51]

Youre right, Melody, about the hormones, but I should have mentioned that I have had two instances of sex with males. Neither were connected with being Tanya or even being dressed. They were during my drug use/ homeless days. the first was being orally raped at a homeless shelter. The second was being offered money to have sex, and doing it because I was young and desperate at the time. I cant deny that I might have tried either experience under better circumstances, and I know that this kind of stuff may have screwed up any interest I would have in men, as I know it sometimes does in gg's, but frankly, it isnt as if I dont have any male friends. I do. And, I know there are different levels of love. Being on the streets for a long time can give you a real strong sense for your male and female friends as brothers and sisters, like family. That is all that has ever existed for me with male friends. It has only ever gone further than that for gg friends. I guess that's the best way I can explain it.

[Melody Moore]

Tanya, I too have been sexually abused & raped by males - Orally as a child and raped as a young adult. So I too have a great disdain for men who just think about sex after my experiences. However I know not all men are like this, some guys are really nice & I do find them more emotionally satisfying & appealing. I do think about this a fair bit now. There is the odd guy who I do find very physically appealing. So I too am looking at this with the view that under better circumstances things could be a whole lot different, especially once I am post SRS. So I consider myself primarily to be bisexual because I am genuinely open to a heterosexual relationship with a male under the right circumstances. I think it would be wrong & I would be kidding myself & lying if I was to only put a label on myself & believe that I will only be a lesbian. Who knows what great pleasures you might derive from a guy once you are post-op?

[Jorja]

Who knows what great pleasures you might derive from a guy once you are post-op?

I know all about that. For me, its awesome!!!! ;)

[tanyalynn51]

Melody and Jorja,
I guess I am being too close- minded, but if so, its only from the experiences. To deny that there isnt a man or two I find cute- one of them is actually a friend, but he doesnt know about Tanya. Just in generalities, I cant deny that when I think how Angelina Jolie is one of my favorite women, I find Brad Pitt a little cute too- I tell myself its just because he's a great actor, but, am I kidding myself a little?

[Melody Moore]

I guess I am being too close- minded, but if so, its only from the experiences.

am I kidding myself a little?

Hi Tanya, I think you are kidding yourself a little and I would bet my last dollar that your feelings towards males are related to your experiences being sexually abused. I say this because I have been in the exact same place as you before. But as long as you harbour this type of resentment it shows that you have not moved past these issues. And from what I know about you Tanya, you don't seem to be the type of person that looks good or likes to have a chip on your shoulder. I think in time you will start to move forward from the past & overcome these issues because you seem to be very emotionally intelligent & strong from what I understand about you through your postings on this forum.

[Dawn D.]

There is only one label for me. It's called 'Being in Love'. Beyond that it's nobodies business!



Dawn