FeAr

[Pythos]

Okay, I felt the need to post this after reading many many threads dealing with actions some of us have done.

These actions have upset those close to us and there is no other way to view it but they are a result of nothing less than fear.

Fear is the beginning point of most of the stupid and insane things we human beings do. As you know it is also a great thing for getting us out of problems that threaten our lives, or WELLBEING

Now I emphasize that last word because this is what we are addressing.

What is one of the main reason we don't dress as often as we like?

In my case it is fear. I would love to wear a skirt and hose along with a nice androgynous or even male outfit for work or even out and about. But fear controls my actions. Instead I put on either leggings or jeans. When I wear my leggings I bring along a pair of pants and regular boots so that when I get home I don't get the 3rd degree from my mom, or if I get into a bind where super shiny and tight pants would draw some unwanted attention.

I hide because of fear. Slight fear, but fear. My mother has proven she is entirely untrustworthy when it comes to her statements when it comes to my wearing "inappropriate" clothing for work. Instead of looking at what I do as trailblazing, or free thinking, instead to her I am "pulling for men" (blea).

Now, when it comes to SOs. I am getting tired of reading about an SO completely and utterly acting irrationally when their SO is either discovered as a CD or TS, or admits to being such.

In my case I am seriously getting tired of being single. I am sick and tired of seeing jerks getting girlfriends or wives, or married men getting the attention of a single girl, while I sit on the sidelines lonely as hell,

I have vowed that I will be fully open about myself. I will say I am a fashion freedomist, have no intention of transitioning, hetero sexual, goth, male that likes to take on a very feminine appearance.

This may be why I am single.

To the SOs of our kind. Understand. The hiding is not done to purposely hurt you. It is to avoid hurt. It is to avoid strife over something that only causes problems because of OTHER PEOPLE'S FEAR.

Other people like bosses, friends, society.

They don't want to risk the loss of someone so close to them, so they burry it, hoping it will go away when they are in a "proper" relationship.

One of the main issues is we treat what we do like it is some sort of disease.

IT IS NOT A FRAGGIN DISEASE!! It is something that is part of us.

I am sorry, but women DO have much more latitude when it comes to clothing and expression. I will be glad to post those rules women were to live by before the sexual revolution. I will also find the stuff about how in France it is STILL illegal for women to wear pants according to an unenforced law.

To those women that say women fought for this "right". YES YOU DID, AND GOOD FOR YOU. Does that mean others should have to go through the same nonsense with no support from you?

Though I am not gay, I do stand for their rights. I think don't as don't tell was one of the stupidest things to happen, along with women STILL not being allowed into front line military service.

KK, I got off track.

Let me just say, the reason a lot of dumb and silly stuff happens is because of fear.

Let me ask though. Would you rather your SO turn out to be a crossdresser, or would you rather he turns out to be oh lets see

A murderer?
A gang member?
A thief?
A cheater?
An alcoholic?
A beater?
An embezzler?
A drug addict?

Or any number of other things.

Really before you get pissed off with your loved one for hiding an aspect of him or herself that is harmless in the long run, really think about how serious the problem is.

[erica12b]

fear is a motivater, and a crippling agent, stupid human things

[Sandra]

You really don't get it do you......for most it is not the dressing that causes the problems and as you say women acting irrationally, it is the lying. You talk about fear, what about the fear that the women is feeling, fear that it is her fault, fear that he doesn't trust her.


I really don't know why I bother to post this though because you and others just don't seem to want to hear the truth. :Angry3: :Angry3:

[Stephanie Anne]

What do iron and argon have to do with crossdressing?

[Cynthia Anne]

You really don't get it do you......for most it is not the dressing that causes the problems and as you say women acting irrationally, it is the lying. You talk about fear, what about the fear that the women is feeling, fear that it is her fault, fear that he doesn't trust her.


I really don't know why I bother to post this though because you and others just don't seem to want to hear the truth. :Angry3: :Angry3:

Well said Sandra! I agree.

[Shelly Preston]

I can understand why an SO would be upset

I know when to people get together they normally agreee to share everything

Some years on they find out about being married to a crossdresser is it any surprise they feel betrayed

I dont see it as irrational behaviour. I have a lot of years trying to understand why I crossdress
Any SO who just found out must be in turmoil

[kimdl93]

You really don't get it do you......for most it is not the dressing that causes the problems and as you say women acting irrationally, it is the lying. You talk about fear, what about the fear that the women is feeling, fear that it is her fault, fear that he doesn't trust her.
:

I would say that yes, the SO has fears - of being deceived, of not being able to trust a person who hides something fudemental. At the same time, its certainly equally understandable that the fears of a cross dresser are legitimate too. Life experience teaches us that we will not be accepted by many people, that loved ones may ridicule or reject us, and that we're deviant, defective...or just plain bad. So everyone has a wealth of legitimate issues....and each of us has the potential to hurt others by acts of commision or ommision. The only way past this is to acknowledge both sides and move on. Get beyond the fear and accept each others' failings.

[Sandra]

Kimdl93

I agree that both parties have fears and believe me I understand the trans persons fears, but to expect the SO to just get on with things which is how most of the time it comes across is wrong.

If people talked more and was more open about everything then just maybe these fears would be a little less and easier to handle.

[Joanne f]

A murderer?
A gang member?
A thief?
A cheater?
An alcoholic?
A beater?
An embezzler?
A drug addict?

.

I don`t wish it be a spoilsport but a person can be all of those things and still be a cross dresser and we should take away the fear of are SOs and be honest with them once and for all .

[kimdl93]

Sandra,

I agree entirely. The key for the CDer is to be honest to themself first - accept themself and be willing to risk the relationship to maintain that honesty. Sometimes we don't know our selves all that well when we marry. I for example had persuaded myself that the CDing was a passing adolescent fantasy. After I was married, my (first) wife invited me to wear some of her things - and my racing heart betrayed me....she knew right away that this struck a cord for me. I told her everything I knew about this part of myself (we were both pretty young) Fortunately, she was incredibly understanding. (Note - we divorced after more than 10 years of marriage, for un related reasons.

I know that if she'd come home and found me in her things - or discover a hidden clothes, her reaction would have been far different, and justifiably so.

[Sara Jessica]

First of all, let me say that I understand your POV. I get where you're coming from, the whole blurring of the gender lines thing. I have empathy for your situation and I support you and others who share similar sentiments.

However, it should be no surprise to anyone that in our society, there is a marked difference between what is male and what is female. Yes, the hiding, lies & deceit may be behind many of the problems faced in relationships where one partner is somewhere on the TG spectrum but at the end of the day, most women dream of growing up to marry their prince. The vision is most often 100% male, a guy's guy who doesn't give his gender a second thought, just as she doesn't give hers a second thought. It is what she is attracted to. Deviation from that, regardless of reason, is sometimes asking way too much despite the underlying love that might be there.

I'm sure you've heard the expression used by many of our SO's, "I didn't sign up for this". Well, they didn't. It is no fault of their own that they have such difficulty with the gender thing. It is what it is. I understand this which is why I don't harbor any ill feelings towards my SO as our relationship feels like it is going into the toilet as I continue to fly down the rabbit-hole that is this gender thing. And it is the same reason that I have such empathy for any SO out there who is struggling.

It's no one's fault but for the most part (as in absent other issues in the relationship), our SO's are not the instigator in the whole thing.

[ReineD]

Pythos. We all have choices in life. If a CDer cannot be honest about who she is from the beginning of a relationship, it is on her and not the potential partner if there are issues down the road. It is THAT simple.

[RACH99]

Hi again Pythos. Nice to see some things don't change around this place. :stirthepot: You [general membership here] say you look for honesty here yet when you get it you complain that it isn't what is needed at all. Would you rather we all lied to our SO's and became Stepford wifes and :cheer: ??? We GG's have fears and we have a real reason for them. I took a huge leap of faith my hubby didn't. If you don't want to face a partners fears come out of the bloody closet already and stop blaming the general population for it. Stop whining and start educating others.

I was 2 months into our relationship [with my now SO] when I knew this was a man I could see spending my life with. I took a very shaky breath and told him all about the "real" me. I know what fear of rejection is. Been there done that...several times. Don't tell me about society not getting it. How very unfair it is. Again been there done that. Don't whine about how you shouldn't need to have the same struggles women did to earn the freedom to dress as we pleased in this country. Fight your own fear little brother and wear what you please.

BTW I am not angry with you. I think of you as a little brother or sister who can on occasion be a royal pain in the ass. But on the whole I actually like you. :strugglin Go figure.

[JohnH]

Sometimes when someone gets married (s)he discovers a feminine side. I got married in July 2009 and I kind of eased into crossdressing by the following:

1. Converting jeans into denim skirts
2. With my wife's blessing, buying nightgowns and a sundress
3. Behind her back, buying denim skirts, additional nightgowns, sandals, and a dress.
4. Buying a lot of nail polish - which she bums off of me
5. Finding dresses and shoes my ex-wife left that fit me

After getting the garments and shoes I never kept them a secret nor did I crossdress without her knowing it.
I keep my feminine items in plain sight and all the neighbors know about my expanded wardrobe options.
I have never deleted my browsing history.

She asked me point blank this morning when I was going to go on hormones since she looked at my browsing activities on this forum and she calls me Johanna some of the time.

What I am saying is that sometimes transgender tendencies can surface after a marriage and cause some grief. I guess what I should have done is to tell my wife what I was ordering and not get those items behind her back.

If I would have known about my transgender tendencies before marrying my wife I think I would have told her straight out.



I am sorry, but women DO have much more latitude when it comes to clothing and expression.

Society is to blame to a certain extent since it decrees that it is shameful for a man to wear feminine attire. It takes a lot of courage for a man to admit that he crossdresses. If there were not the shame men would not keep their crossdressing activities a secret.

Johanna

[Pythos]

Um...RACH99. You seem to have completely missunderstood what this post was about.

It was dealing with the fears people have. It actually had little to do with me. The poster previous to you also seems to have missed the point. I never mentioned my own odd style of blending the lines. I was simply stating how I find it amazing how SOs just do not see this.

The second poster really missed the mark. I was not whining. I was simply stating why it is many CDs hide. "it is not about the clothing but the hiding" yes, the hiding of the clothing. If he outright went and put on those clothes would you stick with him?

RACH99, I was not whining about ANYTHING in this. So your whole thing about my mentioning of the struggles of women was also signs of missunderstanding.

I for one am only in the closet so to say when it comes to my mother, because I don't want to deal with her silliness, and work (the aviation side) because....I put too much work into my ratings to have some overzealous FAA dude take it away for being "mentally unfit".

[AlannahNorth]

Well said - fear is a big one.

[Eryn]

What do iron and argon have to do with crossdressing?

I'm glad at least one other person had that thought. That's why I love this forum! ;)

[Lucy_Bella]

I can relate to where you are coming from,
I have been open to my ex about myself from the start of our relationship. Tho not fully accepted from the start it didn't get any better , in fact she couldn't stand the thought of it within the last 10 years of marriage. Even tho I never did it in front of her.
Now while married to her ,she also didn't approve of my drinking ,it too was way out of hand from the start and grew into a once in a great while enjoyment.. At the end of our relationship and as much crap that I took about drinking she choose to date a heavy drinker ..She could not accept my desire to dress but she accepted an acolholic?

I do feel that a majority of women ( GG's) refuse to accept a Cder as a partner..They can not handle a male expressing but not engulped in showing his Femme side although he lived male 99.9% of the time,... Sad..

[Pythos]

and Sandra. What exactly is the truth?

What is it in my post that shows "I don't get it?"

I seem to get that the lying is the result of fear. That is what the post was addressing for the most part.

The woman fearing it might be her fault is still just yet another fear, and an irrational one. Fear he doesn't trust her? That is what I am addressing. YES fear she will drop him like a rock.

That is a legitimate fear, and many people live with that fear. So as I said, they hide and yes, lie.

No use for the little angry faces. This is a discussion, and one that I think has been missed.

Fear is the mind killer. It is the little death. But do we face our fear and let it pass over us so that when we turn around there is only yourself? No, we all for the most part allow it to control us.

I don't get the reference to Iron, and Argon. I am completely missing this that I did not have intentionally in my post.

[Eryn]

I don't get the reference to Iron, and Argon. I am completely missing this that I did not have intentionally in my post.

Congratulations, you are not a geek. Fe is the symbol for iron. Ar is the symbol for argon. The fact that you capitalized the A in "Fear" made it look like a chemical formula for iron combined with argon, a very improbable combination.

Meanwhile back in your serious discussion which I apologize for disrupting, I'd like to point out that what we call fear is often called caution. Fear is what keeps us safe in many cases. Far from killing the mind, it is often the thing that keeps that mind out of harm's way.

[Pythos]

Heh! that's funny. Here I was just doing some silly stuff with the letters and it turns out I had stuff from the periodic table.

Oh, and I am a geek, a major sci fi loving, tech savy, Geek, and damned proud of it. :)

[eluuzion]

Ah, a chance to me to imitate the results of a google search, lol. Ask about tap water and learn about hydrogen content on Venus:heehee:...lol ok, here I go...

"Reality" is absolute, our perceptions of it aren't.

~It all comes down to personal perception~

There are different forms of "fear".
-The fear "instinct" is an innate human survival instinct. It protects us from real danger and keeps us alive by engaging the adrenaline rush of the "fight or flight" mechanism.

-Fear is also a human emotion based on personal perception. We all need to feel "safe". When we are not certain about something, we cannot predict what might happen, and thus we have no sense of control over it, which makes us view it as a "threat". Threat can lead to fear, which leads to imagined outcomes, which leads to stress.

Fear can be "real" or "non-existent". That is determined by personal perceptions. Standing on a chair to avoid being bitten by the mouse sitting on the floor is "real" because a "threat" really exists.
Sometimes we feel threatened by a danger when there is no concrete evidence to suggest any danger may exist. Standing on a chair with no visible mouse on the floor "because there is one hiding close by" is illogical assumption and questionable behavior. This is called paranoia. (The determining factor in the label being whether a real threat exists or does not exist.)

"Fear" is often used in various contexts on CD forums to "justify" or "excuse" actions and behaviors which are typically judged to be deceptive and/or unethical when defined by social norms. The accounts shared in posts are often preceded by a proclamation of an honest character being forced to unwillingly participate in “out of character” actions in order to insulate, protect, defend or save their relationship from the threats that will attempt to destroy them if their secret is revealed. These “threats” may take the form of a SO, family members or various segments of society.

The question is this. Are these “threats” and “fears” justified (real)?

Are they “real”?... meaning there is concrete evidence to support the outcome they predict is correct? The SO will definitely leave them or reject them? Society will definitely abuse/destroy them?

Is it “paranoia”?... meaning the fear is based upon perceptions, not proven “threats”, ( no concrete evidence to prove that those threats actually exist). Is there proof that the SO will freak out? Proof that all society will reject them? Proof that honesty will produce negative outcomes and/or destroy them?

Or is it something else... like Cognitive Dissonance, procrastination, narcissism, self-denial, lack of courage, questionable character, lack of empathy, personal agenda, lack of moral compass, MPD, dissociative whatever, or the mysterious work of the “personality-splitting fairy”? :heehee:

Fears and threats must also be interpreted in proper perspective. People have been killed from walking in front of trains, so the threat and the fear is genuine. No one (I am aware of), has died from being honest with an SO about their CD interests.

These types of “fears” can be overcome. The fear is not being physically afraid of another person or group. The fear is generated internally by your perceptions about the person or group. The fear was not “yours” and it was not towards someone/something stronger than you. The fear is in what you think he/she might do, or will think about you if you reveal your secret or confront the subject of your fears. That type of fear is always a perception, not a reality.

That realization is the key to disabling your fears. You change your perspective by looking at fears as an interesting (but uncomfortable) emotional feeling that is worth investigating. So you muster up the courage to unravel it, by confronting the threat. Unless it happens to be a freight train, chances are good that the outcome will not be as devastating as you perceived it would be. Many times the reaction you receive will be totally different than you expected. At a minimum, you have achieved the primary goal of erasing the fear.

The only other thing I have to add is a quote that I happen to believe is true...

“Comparing something wrong with something worse, never makes it right”

I am just sharing personal observations and thoughts. I have no interest or objective in judging or criticizing any personal behavior or strategies of other people. Whatever works for them, is “right” for them. There are plenty of eager volunteers adopting that gate-keeper role...parents, attorneys, judges, vigilantes, priests, SOs, wives, ex-wives, forum trolls, friends, relatives, losers...the forest is full of them...lol. I have my hands full managing my own life and I am not interested in adopting anybody else...lol

just my thoughts...

HaveFun/BeHappy

:love:

[Sara Jessica]

...The poster previous to you also seems to have missed the point. I never mentioned my own odd style of blending the lines. I was simply stating how I find it amazing how SOs just do not see this.

If I am "the poster previous to you" then yes, I bought blending the lines up for two reasons. The first being you did in fact mention it...

"In my case it is fear. I would love to wear a skirt and hose along with a nice androgynous or even male outfit for work or even out and about."

But more importantly, I didn't want to offend your POV in discussing the obvious, the differences between the sexes which is really where a lot of the fear you talk about comes from.

You have taken ownership of your fear yet you begrudge others for doing the same? Whether it's the TG person, fearing loss of family, friends, impact on career, etc., or the SO fearing the same things along with her dreams being shattered, seems we're all in this together.


Oh, and I am a geek, a major sci fi loving, tech savy, Geek, and damned proud of it. :)


Fear is the mind killer. It is the little death....

Dune anyone??? ;)

[Valerie Nova]

You don't HAVE to be single. You can probably find bisexual girls that don't mind the gender-bending. Plus, there's always the off-chance you can get a threesome if you're into that kind of thing.

[Pythos]

Whoops, I pointed out the wrong poster. The poster previous was ReineD.

I don't think in this post I am begrudging anyone of their fear. The point of this post was to give at least one reason people hide, and that is fear.

I don't understand why this is being met with statements along the lines of "stop whining" or "your bugrudging people..." and so on.

I have always admitted to my hiding, and why I hide, as well as who I hide from.

I think the issue readers of this post are having is they think I wrote this about me. No, it is not just about me, it is about fear. I used myself as an example, that is the extent to which I am involved in this post.

Please read my posts through, because if you read between the lines you most likely will miss what I am trying to convey.

Heh, I am finding at least around here, Bisexual girls also hide their true selves. Once again, out of fear. The GG I am with there is no hope of anything happnening with, which is a shame cause she is bi, but man has she got luggage.

[ReineD]

The poster previous to you also seems to have missed the point.

I don't think I missed the point. I was responding to this statement:


I am getting tired of reading about an SO completely and utterly acting irrationally when their SO is either discovered as a CD or TS, or admits to being such.

If a TG tells a potential love interest that he CDs and she chooses to move on, she is not being irrational. She is exercising her right to live her life as she chooses, just as is the TG. Is it irrational for a hetero GG to not be attracted to a feminine male? I don't think so.

If she is angry when she finds out after years of marriage that both her husband and his sexuality are not what he had portrayed to her, this is not irrational. It is a very natural reaction to having been lied to and to discovering her marriage and her husband were not what she thought they were.

As to the fear ... I agree it is what causes most if not all our negative reactions, even anger. I'll be more specific. It is the fear that we will not have, or we will lose, something that we perceive to be essential to our existence. A GG is not irrational, nor is she a b*tch as you've said in other threads, for experiencing it.

... but it's excusable for a CD to hide who he is because of fear? Sounds like a double standard to me. A GG faces the issues as she works through her fearful and angry reactions, even if she eventually decides she does not want to stay married to a feminine man. The CD does not when he hides.

[kimdl93]

There is a point in one's maturation when most of us think that we can or have "outgrown" the desire to dress. I think this is one of life's dirty tricks on both the CDer and thier SO. I was pretty sure I'd grow out of it, had a nice long respite during my military service and the first few months of marriage. At that time and before I wouldn't have acknowledged to myself that I was transvestite or a cross dresser or transgendered or whatever. It seemed like a phase that maybe I'd left behind. So, if I entered my first marriage without telling her before hand, it was perhaps ignorance or denial on my part, but not deliberate deceipt.

But, I guess fortunately, in my case, my prediliction revealed itself very early in our marriage in a manner that made it easier to recognize on her part and easier for me to acknowledge. But, I was fortunate in that my x was really very open minded and accepting. She didn't have any obligation to accept me, but chose to, and I'm grateful for that.

[Pythos]

ReineD

I addressed my error in pointing out the poster, :)

So was a husband within his rights to dump a woman when she wanted to get a job, and have a career (something that shockingly still happens in this day and age)? The reason being that her having a job affects his image as a man. He would not be the only breadwinner.

Sadly, he is. He has every right to do that. Is it right?

Well....I guess you need to be the judge on that. I personally think the guy is a sexist ass if he does that. But what would his reason be for dropping her again?

Hmmm, could it be fear? Again. Fear of losing his manhood, or his control?

I know the example is different from a guy wanting to wear clothing of a woman, and be accepted, but it seems the argument about women being shunned and dumped for the same is a moot argument since women fought for that right.

[docrobbysherry]

"The only thing to fear, is fear itself!"
Which is patent nonsense, as Eluusion pointed out. The word "fear" is like the word "color". They both cover great varieties and differing depths.
Fear is a necessary part of life. If NO ONE lived with fears, we'd ALL BE DEAD!

As to the ongoing argument on who's "at fault" or "who is more afraid", the CD or the SO?
I'd say whichever of u is without sin, throw the first brickbat! Or, which came first? The chicken or the egg? Does ANY of this bickering really help in solving these problems!?

I FEAR NOT!!! Ha ha ha!

[Emma England]

I have read every post in this thread.

All that is happening is that you are all arguing with each other.

Fear? Afraid of clothes on your body lmao!!!!!

[Valerie Nova]

Heh, I am finding at least around here, Bisexual girls also hide their true selves. Once again, out of fear. The GG I am with there is no hope of anything happnening with, which is a shame cause she is bi, but man has she got luggage.
It actually seems kind of trendy for girls to say they're bi, or at least pretend, but the real bisexual girls are often afraid of what people will think. My girlfriend is kind of bisexual, but leans more toward guys. She's made out with her (female) roommate before and been afraid to tell me, for instance. She found out about my hobby when she tried to take off my shirt once and I didn't let her. Because I'd been wearing lady clothes not too long ago and still had red marks on my skin that made that fact glaringly obvious. Anyway, she persisted in trying to take my shirt off and I still didn't let her so she freaked out and then finally I told her. At first she was a bit weirded out and asked me if I was gay, which of course I'm not. But once she let it sink in, she told me that she actually found me sexier because of that.

Aaaaand, here's where half the faces in this forum turn green with envy. :p

I love that woman.

[RACH99]

:gg: I cannot find a noogie emoticon so this will have to do. Besides I wouldn't want to get your hair all messed up Sweets. :P

Ok the way I see it is I simply used your OP as a jump point to expand the conversation you began. I do feel any thing we post does reflex on our own feelings, thoughts, and emotions so while you may not have intended it that way it was about you in many ways. Again just my POV.

As to the man who dumped the wife in your example right or wrong is in the eyes of the beholder. In enough cases the wife went on her merry way and opened the door for those following in her foot steps. So it stands to reason just like the women who stood up to society's ideas of the past including, I have to imagine, many a mother it is up to the TG of today to be willing to open that magical door towards freedom for those who come after. Including a lot of mothers and fathers who will not like this at all. God willing some day parents will embrace their children regardless of differences.

I keep reading how you love aviation may I ask what you do for a living P? Good grief you aren't in air traffic control are you? It would explain the hair :lol2:

Of course I'm teasing you. I've decided to adopt you whether you like it or not since like my younger siblings I often don't know whether I want to hug you, comfort you or shake you. lol

[NicoleScott]

Right you are, Doc. Fear isn't some disease or affliction we'd rather not have. We need fear. It's a survival mechanism.
I KNOW that my boss is a homophobe, and I also know that he considers any behavior not purely male or female (like crossdressing) as queer (his words), and whoever does that must be a homo (his words). It's naive to think that a boss (he's the TOP boss) can't find a legitimate reason to fire whoever he wants. I fear losing my job. It's real. That's why I cannot come out as a crossdresser. Fear keeps me employed.

[RACH99]

I have read every post in this thread.

All that is happening is that you are all arguing with each other.
[...]

Nawww Em we aren't arguing we're debating. :lol: What better way to learn about one other? Well I guess there is that listening thing but :strugglin

[Jane P]

The thing is , we only fear what matters to us. My wife doesn't fear what matters to me , she fear what people think of her by being associated with me.

[ReineD]

So was a husband within his rights to dump a woman when she wanted to get a job, and have a career? The reason being that her having a job affects his image as a man.

Pythos. The economy leaves us no other choice than to have dual incomes. It takes two salaries now to be able to afford the things that took only one salary 50 years ago. I've no doubt that husbands are thrilled to have the second income and that it is a hardship when their wives don't work.

Working to support a family and put kids through college is just not the same thing as gender variance. Believe it or not, most cis and transpersons understand this. A husband and wife who both work are still quite clear on who is the man and who is the woman, even if he wears pants tailored for men while she wears hers tailored for women. :)

[carolinoakland]

What do iron and argon have to do with crossdressing?

Sounds like a velvet glove to me...

[Tamasina]

Here is my 2 cents. When I think I know where your going its not that simple. You must see it from a GG prospective. It may be hard for you to understand since you are single. When I started cding and told my wife I didn't understand her anger about it for a time and then I realized. First off she met me got to know me as a guy and that was her only interest not my fem side. Plus what if the shoe was on the other foot you met a nice lady you get to know her you fall in love and she says I want to dress and look like a lumber jack would anything change? What would you think? I believe there would be many of the same questions and thought and fears. I hope this helps some and if I didn't understand your thread sorry.
Tina1969

[Valerie Nova]

Here is my 2 cents. When I think I know where your going its not that simple. You must see it from a GG prospective. It may be hard for you to understand since you are single. When I started cding and told my wife I didn't understand her anger about it for a time and then I realized. First off she met me got to know me as a guy and that was her only interest not my fem side. Plus what if the shoe was on the other foot you met a nice lady you get to know her you fall in love and she says I want to dress and look like a lumber jack would anything change? What would you think? I believe there would be many of the same questions and thought and fears. I hope this helps some and if I didn't understand your thread sorry.
Tina1969
I still think if I was married to a woman who wanted to dress like a lumberjack two days a month, I wouldn't care, as long as she looked nice for me sometimes. I suppose things aren't entirely equivalent between the genders, but then we all know that already, don't we?

To digress: the reasons for this are historical, stupid, and sexist. For a woman to want to be a man or masculine, well that's understandable, because men are inherently so much better than women. But for a man to want to a woman or feminine, well, there has to be something seriously wrong with him.

[Kaz]

Hi Pythos,

I am continually amazed by the way some of these posts go... I totally understand where you are coming from and there will be many here that also do, though they will not post as the developing "consensus" appears to be attacking what they have read into your words.

I do "get it" (Sorry Sandra) and it speaks volumes to me. I totally understand the views expressed by the GG SOs on the site and empathise with them. However, I wish people would also support, or at least try to understand everyone in our community who is trying to express their issues and fears, and not just those who subscribe to the "party line".

I did not tell my SO before we married and have subsequently been living what many here will label here as a "lie". I have deceived her, I have hidden things, all of that. But when we got married and even after the birth of our first child I did not know I was a CD. Back then CD wasn't even a term used. So when over the years I struggle with what seems to be a strange infatuation, at what point do I get the shining light that says "You are a CD and it will never go away... you need to tell your SO right now!". I am sorry it didn't work like that.

It is a lot more complicated with lots at stake... like people's lives, especially when kids are involved. So I thought it would go away and it did... for years at a time. How could I know it would just come back stronger? Where was the crystal ball?

One day I will be able to express my issues and talk to people about them. I thought that this site would allow that. It would appear that if we do bring up deep rooted fears and issues that do not conform to "policy" we get attacked.

Apologies if this is a rant, but this thread has got me going. Sandra, I know you are a Super Mod and therefore I should defer and will probably get banned now for disagreeing with the "force majeur", but I just have to say... I wish more people here would "get it" - i.e. understand where Pythos and others are coming from or at least accept that there are other ways of looking at things.

I have spent my entire life trying to do the right thing. What I read here over and over is how I have been a shit person who has lied and cheated on his wife and family. I'm sorry. I am really really sorry!

Pythos is right... for some of us FEAR is at the heart of things.

[ReineD]

I still think if I was married to a woman who wanted to dress like a lumberjack two days a month, I wouldn't care, as long as she looked nice for me sometimes.

It's a lot more than dressing like a lumberjack twice a month. Its thinking about it in between, the obsession about all things lumberjack related (how would you like it if she had an an entire room full of steel toed boots, checkered flannel shirts, and axes and chainsaws? :)), the focus on spending time in lumberjack forums and shopping sites, posting her macho pics and videos online for other lumberjacks to admire, and the certainty that the twice monthly expression will escalate in time to perhaps be full time after either the kids are grown or when she retires from her secretarial job. And what if eventually she will want to take hormones to bulk up her muscles for real and grow a beard? Or maybe even have sex with GG lumberjack admirers?

I know I exaggerated a bit here, but I just wanted to put it in perspective. :)



I have spent my entire life trying to do the right thing. What I read here over and over is how I have been a shit person who has lied and cheated on his wife and family. I'm sorry. I am really really sorry!

Pythos is right... for some of us FEAR is at the heart of things.


I don't think you're a shit person as you put it for having struggled through your gender issues. I honestly don't think most GGs would think so either. And of course, fear is a valid reason for a reluctance to come out to Loved Ones. What is hard for me and the other GGs to stomach is the justification that experiencing fear should excuse any attempt at honesty, and the idea that a GG is not allowed to also experience fear when she finds out about the CDing. There are some CDs in this forum who rationalize that keeping this fundamental part of themselves from their wives is harmless. This is what gets to most GGs .... not the struggles. I for one feel a great deal of empathy for every TG in this forum and I can't imagine how difficult it must be to live with gender issues. :hugs:

[erica12b]

ReineD I have always felt you had a great view of us, (still do) but in my view on this one - fear wins
I do not see the wife or gf that wants to be a lumber jack , ever , getting beaten to death, loosing her job, disowned from her family , loosing her apt , or friends for being true to her self and trying to be excepted as one of the lumber jacks every now and then (thinking and fantasying included)

We have talked about, what secret any gg could have that would equal the male secret that a guy is a cross dresser, (world changing secret) as of yet I have not heard one,

Every one has fears, they are there’s, rationale or irrational they are real to them then there are the facts

fear suck , but it is based on our oun experances / each and every one of us / alone

[ReineD]

ReineD I have always felt you had a great view of us, (still do) but in my view on this one - fear wins

I agree it is a valid emotion. But, the married GG is allowed to feel it too, not just her husband. And it's not a valid reason for saying that a partner "doesn't need" to know. It's not a valid reason for deception, leaving the wife to wonder what is amiss in the relationship. No one should have to live like this. Not the wife or the CD. :sad:

I can see CDs over 40 being fearful they were alone and having had no clue how to handle gender issues 10 or 15 years ago prior to the internet, but this simply isn't the case anymore. Not for the younger CDers. It's even hard to justify an older CD who continues to believe that deception is the only way.



I do not see the wife or gf that wants to be a lumber jack , ever , getting beaten to death, loosing her job, disowned from her family , loosing her apt , or friends for being true to her self and trying to be excepted as one of the lumber jacks every now and then (thinking and fantasying included)


Oh Erica. If you spend a little time in the F2M forum, or talk to some of the guys about their experiences with being disowned by their families, their kids no longer wanting to have anything to do with them, being discriminated against at school, at work, you wouldn't say this. :sad:

EDIT
I want to say one more thing about fear, which I haven't seen talked about here in a while: internalized transphobia. This happens when a stigmatized group of people internalize the bias that is thrown at them by society and they end up, subconsciously perhaps, believing they are inferior for being who they are. It shows up in a husband who, deep down, fears his wife is justified in leaving him should she find out about the CDing. This, more than anything else, is what keeps CDers from being honest. It is true there are women who could not live with the CDing. But, how many threads have you read where the husband takes his courage in both hands, is fully prepared for the worst, only to find out that his wife is not running off screaming into the hills? A CDer has a much bigger chance at making his marriage a success if he overcomes his own internalized fears and he tells his wife this is who he is, than one who justifies the hiding and then his wife discovers the deception. I know that I can't possibly account for every variation on what I've just described in this small paragraph, but just pay attention to the posts from the CDers here whose wives are supportive. In most cases, it is they who have told and not the wife who has discovered it by mistake.

[docrobbysherry]

No, fear keeps you employed by someone else.
Fear kept me a slave for someone similar. I broke free and made my own job, where I would never fire me.
Someday I hope to employ a diverse work force. If we really want change, sometimes we have to embrace our fears and make a leap of faith.

Who do u think u r, Kitty? Miss Indiana Jones? Personally, I think it's GREAT that u took the "leap of faith" and MADE IT. However, remember the movie!? And, all the folks that PERISHED taking that "leap of faith"!?


Oh Erica. If you spend a little time in the F2M forum, or talk to some of the guys about their experiences with being disowned by their families, their kids no longer wanting to have anything to do with them, being discriminated against at school, at work, you wouldn't say this. :sad:

I read those heartbreaking posts, Reine, and I vow I will NOT to be in their boat!:sad:
I'm certain others must feel the same! Unless your fem side is absolutely killing u for not allowing her to take over, u simply do what u must so as to NOT destroy your life, family, and friends!:straightface:

[NicoleScott]

No, fear keeps you employed by someone else.
Fear kept me a slave for someone similar. I broke free and made my own job, where I would never fire me.
Someday I hope to employ a diverse work force. If we really want change, sometimes we have to embrace our fears and make a leap of faith.

No real disagreement here. I could quit. I like my work and do not consider myself a slave by working for someone else. My company gets my good work and I get paid. Nothing wrong with that. Perhaps I misspoke. Fear keeps me in the closet because I don't want to lose my good job. I want my job and all that it provides more than I want to make that leap of faith to make that change happen.

[SweetPea_GG]

So was a husband within his rights to dump a woman when she wanted to get a job, and have a career (something that shockingly still happens in this day and age)? The reason being that her having a job affects his image as a man. He would not be the only breadwinner.

Sadly, he is. He has every right to do that. Is it right?



That example I dont think works for this topic. But lets give this example. For any man out there ho loves a woman and is in love with the womanly figure etc.. Lets turn the tables.. What if your SO who you deeply love and have been with for a extended period of time either comes to you or you find out that she actually wants to be viewed as a male.. so she wants to bind her chest which gives her that womanly figure. she wants to wear loose fitting clothing, wants to walk like a guy and talk in a deeper voice.. wants to stop shaving her legs and under arms.. everything that you are physically attracted to is now gone. I am sure there are many men out there who would feel just as hurt as a GG who finds out about her husband CDing.. there are many I am sure who wouldnt stick around either. The thought for them of being with a woman who wants to look or sometimes play the part of a male might not do it for them anymore.. so it can go both ways its just most ppl I dont think actually sit and think about what if the tables were turned..

When you give a example of a situation its easier to give a example of something that is similar. It doesnt work right in a discussion if you go totally off course and throw out a working woman vs a CDing man.. so compaire a CDing man to a CDing female.. and both sides SOs

[ReineD]

Gosh, I edited my post just above and already there are 3 more posts, so I'll finish here.

Erica .. you're young. Just try to imagine yourself in this scenario. Say you have (sorry if this is dismal) a limited time to live and you know this. You fall in love with all your heart. Would you NOT disclose this to your potential partner? Would you not want her to know what's coming down the road? I think you'd respect and love her enough to want to tell her the truth. So why should it be different when it comes to gender issues? Or any other major issue for that matter?

[erica12b]

i do admit that the ftm guys can and do have a hard time , but i feel as bad as it is for them, the mtf have a harder time IF they our outed , i have had guys tell me at my work place that he and his buddys have no problem takeing one of those " drag f^%$ crossdressers out and buring IT in th desert " his words
this is getting us off of the main thread

fear , if we take just it and only it, we all have it !

( edited ) , had replyed but

off thread , sorry

[Sandra]

I do "get it" (Sorry Sandra) and it speaks volumes to me. I totally understand the views expressed by the GG SOs on the site and empathise with them. However, I wish people would also support, or at least try to understand everyone in our community who is trying to express their issues and fears, and not just those who subscribe to the "party line".

Kaz I do try and understand and support people here... but when comments like this are made


Now, when it comes to SOs. I am getting tired of reading about an SO completely and utterly acting irrationally when their SO is either discovered as a CD or TS, or admits to being such.

Where is the understanding and support there..this is just saying that the SO shouldn't react irrationally when she just had the wind knocked out of her sails, should she just sit there and do nothing? Most TG people have lived with this for many years before they tell anyone, they have gone through the hate, guilt and yes fear but seem to think that the SO should just accept it.



ne day I will be able to express my issues and talk to people about them. I thought that this site would allow that. It would appear that if we do bring up deep rooted fears and issues that do not conform to "policy" we get attacked.

Yeah I see a picture here....you see the GGs here get that feeling as well when they don't conform.


Apologies if this is a rant, but this thread has got me going. Sandra, I know you are a Super Mod and therefore I should defer and will probably get banned now for disagreeing with the "force majeur",


You rant away :D

Now as for the next bit why it doesn't matter whether I'm a super mod or not you are entitled to your opinion, just remember that I am a member here as well and entitled to my opinion just as much as you are, and neither I nor any other staff member is going to ban you for disagreeing with the "force majeur" or "superior force"

[Pythos]

So,

outing your SO to his work, family, friends, and virtually ruining their lives IS RATIONAL? Over something that in the grand scheme of things is sooo unimportant.

Really?

Wow.

[RACH99]

No it isn't. I don't recall anyone saying it was kid. Several commented a SO has the right to feel emotional and rant etc etc etc no one said it was cool to ruin a life or job or family by outing anyone dear heart. :gg: Even pissed off I would never do that. And I do not condone those who use hurt or anger or just meanness to do it either. I think it safe to say the majority of us would think it was a horrible thing to do to someone, especially someone you claimed to have loved.

Seriously hun I wish you would try at least to get into someone else's head instead of being lost in your own.


Jeez, kids.


AND if you say "over something that is soooo unimportant" one more time I will hunt you down and shave your head. And if it is so damn unimportant in the grand scheme of things as you say then why are your panties in such a bunch your voice squeaks?

Rach

Say, hey are we having fun yet kids? Let's see how many of the GG members Pythos can get annoyed today. :lol2: I enjoy your honesty, your wit and often your POV but I often find you abrasive and just plain ole' annoying. Like I said, just like a younger sibling. *smack*

[Pythos]

"Let's see how many of the GG members Pythos can get annoyed today"

I found that competely unecessary. My aim was NOT TO ANNOY anyone. My aim was to discuss.

I am getting a little tired of the condescending attitude I am getting from specific members. I know that if I addressed anyone in the manner I have been addressed I would have gotten a "kind" message from a mod, or gotten hell from other members.

I also do not like being called hun. Sorry.

It strikes me as belittling.

[Tamara Croft]

You don't like most things and sorry, but you are annoying and condescending to many people, what's it like having the shoe on the other foot?

It get's me how people moan and moan about members not being allowed to debate things out, but when we allow it, especially to those who have whinged about it, it's not liked... ironic :rolleyes:

[crusadergirl]

Pythos i have the same problem when writing threads people don't seem to get the point i'm making. But what can u do. Anyways i get your point about fear keeping you from telling your girl friend are wife. You don't want to lose them. It sucks to lose friends and family over something a small as crossdressing. So far i have been lucky came out to many of my family and friends most are cool with it.
Some fear for me going out because they don't want me to get hurt. I'm not going to say everybody i know will be ok with it its hard to tell.
I always say i'm fearless but i'm far from it.

[DaphneGrey]

Pythos, I understand what you are saying about fear. It is fear indeed that causes many of us to hide. And for many there is good reason for that fear. In many cases it is fear that causes SOs to react the way they do. But jjust as you allow fear to to controll the way you dress. An so has to be allowed to rationalize thier fears, in there own way and there own time. We are all afraid of something, you, me, My SO, and everyone else on this forum. Where I think you are running into trouble is not ( as it seems from reading your post) giving SOs the space they need to deal with thiers.

A discussion about fear what causes it and how to deal with it would be a great thing to discuss in my opinion. Unfortunately you added a bunch of gripes to your OP that has put a bunch of people on edge. I have in the past done the same thing, and I have eaten a fair share of humble pie and taken a good many slaps in the ego, and dare I say have had the chip knocked of my shoulder more than once. Admit it your OP was a rant! Rants are good things from time to time, I certainly have had a few. But if you want to have a dicussion you might just bring up the fear aspect and maybe frame as a question something like, What are your fears as it concerns Dressing? What are your SOs Fears and how do you deal with them? It is just a suggestion of course.

Another point when you say things like would you rather be married to a "Muderer, drug addict etc..." It really is not a valid argument. For one Hiding Crossdressing or any forum of transgenderism from your SO before marriage is a Huge Deal! Yes the fear is a valid motivation and I understand why people do it. It opens up huge trust issues. Wives feel betrayed and with good reason, they were! Feeling betrayed and lied to is brutal for anyone and it is one of the most difficult things to forgive. It causes great pain and the only thing that heals pain is time.

[Pythos]

Okay. Let me make this sparkly clear, cause obviously it is getting missed.

The people or entities I hide my styles from

1) MY MOTHER
2)AVIATION

That's it. That's all

No where in there is my hiding from my girlfriend, no hiding from my friends, no hiding from other family members. In fact I stated my being honest is a contributing reason I am single. See what honesty gets you? LOL

Ok?

As far as my not being liked for being condescending. Please PM the threads that the op of mine is condescending. Please. I would really like to know.

I used my self as an example. Those were the "gripes" that were mentioned. I felt it would be rude to use others as an example.

I will not make that mistake again.

Oh. implying that I am offending GG members here is in no way contributing to the discussion. Which is what I was responding to.

I am amazed and saddened by how this forum seems incapable of having deep discussions without turning into a furball.

And Administrator. From what I understand, I am not the only person that does not like most things. At least from the pms I receive.

This thread has been taken completely off the tracks. For the umpteenth time, it was not about me. It was about fear and its control over ours and other's actions.

[Pythos]

"Another point when you say things like would you rather be married to a "Muderer, drug addict etc..." It really is not a valid argument. For one Hiding Crossdressing or any forum of transgenderism from your SO before marriage is a Huge Deal!"

The reason I used that is because the way some SOs behave about the revelation, the person might as well be one of those examples. Oh, and also I have a very personal example of a woman staying with one of those described.

My dad beat the living hell out of my mother. She is now physically affected by the damage he did to her. The doctors have told her to avoid certain movements because the spinal damage she took from his beatings and throwings were done in such a manner those movements could cause her to get paralyzed. Yet she stuck with him. I wonder how she would have been had instead of being a wife beating person that allowed alcohol and the results of a football game to lead him to beat her up, he was instead a nice person that liked to wear women's clothes?

I wish my dad had been one of us. I wish he could have been the nice person he could have been. But my image of my father is scared by those times he was nothing less than a monster. To the CDers that hide from your son or daughters as if what you are doing is wrong....why? My dad certainly did not hide his pure violence, I am sure that was the results of years of violence in his family.

What we do, is not a disease. It is not wrong. Why do we treat it as such?

As I have said to some of you. YOu do not know me. I am quite open, but. YOu do not know me. The examples I give are ones I have been a part of. I have also read and heard time and time again how women will stay with real rotten men, and so when I read of some of the reactions some (not all) SO's have to the revelation their husband is a CD, or TS, it just gets under my skin when I see real rotters of men, men that beat their wives, that are alcoholics, that waste the families money on alcohol or drugs, seem to keep their wives. Never get divorced and so on. Compared to those. The hiding of being a CD to avoid losing one you love, is a far cry. I am not saying it is right, but I am saying the use of some perspective is in order.

It is a valid argument because when CDs get their lives ruined, or highly damaged for a harmless act, people that do many of those actions I use, they of course have a hard time legally, but their spouse usually stays with them, and in many cases love them. Murder being an exception.

You are right in one respect though. Crossdressing is not as bad as those examples. I believe that is one for the points I was emphasizing.

Someone here posted how there is no equivelent for women as there is for men when it comes to the shame associated with the action as there is with crossdressing. That person made a great point.

[Daintre]

This is a kind "word" from a mod.....You have alienated many members with this rant of yours, yes it is a rant. This forum is all for discussion. The original thought here was about fear, which is very much appreciated by most folk here. What you do not seem to get is that while we have lived with this most of our lives, our SOs have not. Cross dressing can be a deal-ender for many people, let's face it, it isn't what most SOs envisioned when they said "I Do" and to think that it should be a subject that is only worth a shrug of the shoulders is naive at best. You need to take heed of the descent shown here.

[Tamara Croft]

And Administrator. From what I understand, I am not the only person that does not like most things. At least from the pms I receive.

I'm not interested in the PM's you receive about what people don't like here, you and them are a GUEST on this board and you don't pay the bill either! So if you and your 'friends' don't like it, there are plenty more boards you can go rant on.


This thread has been taken completely off the tracks. For the umpteenth time, it was not about me. It was about fear and its control over ours and other's actions.

LOL, go back, re-read your OP and see how many times 'you' were sick of not having this and sick of not getting the other and blah blah blah...

Your OP post was nothing more than a rant and you pissed people off which sparked a debate and angry people... if you can't take the debate and heat, you shouldn't have ranted in the first place, all you're doing is pissing people off!!

[Pythos]

What? These lines?

"Now, when it comes to SOs. I am getting tired of reading about an SO completely and utterly acting irrationally when their SO is either discovered as a CD or TS, or admits to being such.

In my case I am seriously getting tired of being single. I am sick and tired of seeing jerks getting girlfriends or wives, or married men getting the attention of a single girl, while I sit on the sidelines lonely as hell,"

Have you not read some of the ways SOs have reacted to finding out their husband is a cder? It is distressing to read of this kind of reaction. Why is stating that a rant? Also, the other time I said I was "sick" of something was in relation to my being single, along with tired of seeing women giving real pieces of dirt multiple chances.

That was it as far as the "ranting" was concerned.

The way you state it, it is like the entire post was a rant. It was not. It was about a major controlling factor in our actions. But this thread also illustrated another characteristic of humans. The negative (the "rants") always outshines the positive (the intended point). Those four lines are the most "negative" and "ranty". The rest I guess could be seen as both a plea for understanding, as well as a possible explanation for what some here do. But instead those four lines control the entire thing.

[DanielMacBride]

I love it when a thread gets people thinking and evokes some pretty emotional responses, usually it means that people are being real ;) Also, apologies in advance for a long post lol, but I am known for writing novels, and sometimes I have trouble trying to articulate what I want to say.

Pythos, I understand exactly what you are saying about fear dictating people's actions - I also understand why some people are getting upset over it, perhaps they have misinterpreted what you were saying (as often happens on forums, people's experiences and personal beliefs colour their perception of what was said). I personally was not offended by what you said - if anything I was more offended by the assumption made by a previous poster that F2Ms don't have to deal with the issues that M2Fs do when they come out (and as one of the mods pointed out, anyone who reads our side of the board would know that this is simply not true - I myself have lost my entire family over it because my parents are too afraid of what other people will think of them to actually confront the issue and deal with it, and have poisoned my children to hate me because of their own misinformed beliefs about who I am. I also personally know F2Ms who have been beaten and raped for being who they are, so we have valid reasons for those particular fears).

In response to your OP, you are right about fear being a motivator - and about the fact that fear also makes people do irrational things (but the fear makes them seem perfectly rational at the time - although of course not all fear is irrational, some of it is quite valid).

I suffer from PTSD and anxiety disorder (due to experiences, so there is something of a parallel with what you were saying in your OP here I think, I understand what you are saying about fear very well from a personal perspective).

Obviously that's a bit different from say, the fear of losing your loved one due to telling them you are a CDer (totally valid fear that as has been said, can raise a LOT of trust issues that are difficult to overcome) - there is fear involved in both sides of that though and I can see how it would make both parties react in a way that was perhaps not the best. The CDer who doesn't tell, because they are afraid of the reaction - and the SO who freaks out on being told, because of any one of a number of reasons (from "omg, he hid this, what else is he hiding?" to "what will other people think?" and a million other shades in between). It is also often the case that when we fear something deeply, we tend to project and make that fear materialise - well known fact of psychology, that people will interpret things the way their conditioning and experiences has taught them to interpret, so if they are expecting something specific to happen, they will respond to a situation in a way that pretty much ensures that it will. It's 2:30 am here so forgive me if I am not particularly coherent in expressing this, but hopefully you will understand what I am getting at.

Anyway, I think everyone needs to just take a couple of deep breaths and step back a bit and maybe not take what was posted quite so personally (although I have to say I think everyone who posted has done a pretty good job of staying calm when discussing a sensitive topic like this!) - I understand why some might have felt attacked but I don't think that was the intent of your post (like you, I am often misinterpreted when posting, it's harder to express something adequately in writing when you don't have the benefit of body language and tone of voice to assist in doing so). I also agree that fear is one of the big issues that is often not discussed because it *does* elicit such an intense response from people - so thank you for raising what is often a difficult issue to discuss, and one that affects all of us in one way or another and elicits some very passionate responses. I enjoy the thought-provoking discussions and appreciate your point of view :)

[ChristiesGurl]

Well said Sandra! I agree.

It is the lying? The fear that he doesn't trust her?

Why should he? When she is going to freak out? (as at least 90% or more of women will). Fear works both ways.

Lack of loving communication is the problem.

I am not saying I'm without fear, o heck no. I am as fearful as anyone to come right out and say what I want... for fear of losing what I have. So, I definitely am fearful.


I do feel that a majority of women ( GG's) refuse to accept a Cder as a partner..They can not handle a male expressing but not engulped in showing his Femme side although he lived male 99.9% of the time,... Sad..

True. And very sad.

When I sign up to love someone, it's to love all of them. For better or for worse. I am very naive. CD'ing just would not have been that big of a deal if brought out to me in a relationship. There is much much worse that could be revealed. Cheating, like my ex, if only online and dating sites etc...and really, I think I'm be way more upset to find out my SO was a porn addict than a cross dresser.

But apparently, I'm not 'normal', whatever that is.

[DaphneGrey]

Okay. Let me make this sparkly clear, cause obviously it is getting missed.

The people or entities I hide my styles from

1) MY MOTHER
2)AVIATION

That's it. That's all

So in the case of hiding from Aviation, are you hiding because of fear? Or do you have anoother reason? I would assume it is fear. What are you trying to say? I read your OP and see a lot of complaints, you make a lot of statements but it is hard to understand what you want to talk about for me personally anyway.

I can imagine living with your father must have been horrible and my heart goes out to you and your mother.

No what we do is not a disease and for many of us I think makes us quite special and unique. It is however a very difficult thing for people to understand even us! And truthfuly in many ways it is not entirely harmless. Not to say that there is something wrong with it, there isn't. It can be very complicating for even the most openminded couples. Some people are just not capapble of living with a Transgender person. For a variety of reasons. Spend some time in the loved ones section if you haven't already. One of my dearest friends was almost destroyed by her husband and his obsession.


No where in there is my hiding from my girlfriend, no hiding from my friends, no hiding from other family members. In fact I stated my being honest is a contributing reason I am single. See what honesty gets you? LOL

I think this admirable of you and thankfull that you have this freedom to express yourself.


Ok?

As far as my not being liked for being condescending. Please PM the threads that the op of mine is condescending. Please. I would really like to know.

I dont think you were trying to be condesending. I do think you ranted and your statements have upset many people, myself included, but I have a pretty thick skin and think you are a good person. A little abrasive but a good soul.


I used my self as an example. Those were the "gripes" that were mentioned. I felt it would be rude to use others as an example.

Yes you did and I appreciate that! I understand what you are saying and why you are upset. It is very easy and often good to say I am a great person and why does someone like me have to suffer when the A ^&*%'s of the world who treat thier wives and girlfriends like garbage. I have been there I know. But the world just isn't that cut and dry. Unfortunately life isn't fair. It is just my opinion but I think you are doing yourself a disservice by ellevating yourself over the jerks of the world and then saying so I dress different so what. You are better than your father and the people who treat women like crap and you dress different and Live the life you choose with confindence. There is someone out there for you and you will find her keep being honest, and keep being yourself. Be confident in who you are and there is no reason say at least "I am not a ....."


I will not make that mistake again.

I dont think you made a mistake in using yourself as an example, I think your mistake was that in your ranting and griping your message was lost, I like to think I am rather inteligent lady and I couldnt quite understand it.


Oh. implying that I am offending GG members here is in no way contributing to the discussion. Which is what I was responding to.

It may not be contributing the discussion, but you did offend the SOs and I don't think you could read your op with intellectual honesty and not understand why. This is forum and sometimes if things aren't fully explained in a scentence it is very easy to offend. Whether you meant to or not YOU DID and you should own up to it and appologise. I have been there and I have said things not meant to hurt but have. Go back through my threads if you care to. I started threads not thinking the way I said things would hurt people and when they came back at me I was dumfounded and did'nt understand why. But looking back I understand and have learned a bit more about sense and sensability.


I am amazed and saddened by how this forum seems incapable of having deep discussions without turning into a furball.

There are a great many deep discussions going on on this forum, There is some fun and fluff too and thats cool.


And Administrator. From what I understand, I am not the only person that does not like most things. At least from the pms I receive.

Her name is Tamara, and she works tirelessly for this community and this resource which most of us take for granted please treat her and the other moderators with respect they deserve it!


This thread has been taken completely off the tracks. For the umpteenth time, it was not about me. It was about fear and its control over ours and other's actions.

Stop answering posts on the defensive! And put the thread back on track.





Having said all of that I would also like to say that I think you are quite passionate about how you feel and I would bet they we are very similar people indeed. I have been around I am guessing a few years longer than you. I wrote this not to attack or argue (I dont do that any more) Just to perhaps give you some perspective.

Best Always
Daphne

[t-girlxsophie]

Pythos,I agree with parts of your OP and disagree on aspects,but one of your consequent posts I couldn't agree with is the effect on Kids,your child finds out you like to dress like a girl could hurt a child so much,to their minds far from being a little thing it can be a massive disturbance in their lives,I know from personal experience nearly losing my son after he found out.of course if handled right it can be seen as no big deal to those children (like it isnt to my stepkids) Its something that has to be treated with kid gloves at all times.
As for your Posts Pythos,they do one thing and that is to stimulate discussion (had both:thumbsup: and:eek:moments reading them) after all that is a big part of why were here

:hugs:Sophie

[ChristiesGurl]

your child finds out you like to dress like a girl could hurt a child so much,to their minds far from being a little thing it can be a massive disturbance in their lives

First I want to say everyone's experiences are different, so I'm not discounting yours. I think it depends on how it is approached and the child, and possible, the age of the child. My teen is very accepting and was not upset or traumatized at all, but so far she has only seen photos. I don't think seeing him dressed in person is going to be an issue, it's just that it's usually late in the evening and my daughter is at home. When it happens, it happens. I'm not worried about it though.

[Pythos]

I think exposing your kids to an alternative way of living opposed to violence is far more acceptable.

[ReineD]

Now, when it comes to SOs. I am getting tired of reading about an SO completely and utterly acting irrationally when their SO is either discovered as a CD or TS, or admits to being such.

You've been saying this quite a bit, and yes, we do have some threads from people whose wives are having issues with the CDing. But what you don't know, and what they don't discuss in their threads, are the other issues they are having in their marriage. No one can encapsulate years of marital history in a few paragraphs. Also, did you ever consider that the "irrationality" might be caused by the erosion of trust from keeping secrets? Don't you think a partner senses when secrets are kept? At any rate, we also have tons of posts from members here who HAVE come out to their wives and life is even better than before. Why don't you talk about those posts too?

Last thing ... read from the last page going backward, in the New Member's GG intro thread in the Sticky section. You'll see there are more supportive than non supportive GGs. :)



In my case I am seriously getting tired of being single. I am sick and tired of seeing jerks getting girlfriends or wives, or married men getting the attention of a single girl, while I sit on the sidelines lonely as hell,

Did you ever consider that the issue might have absolutely nothing to do with how you dress? It's true that I don't know you. I can only form an impression of you based on your reaction to posts here, and the way other people react to you as well. You are sometimes at odds with people, and people sometimes respond in kind. You may or may not have the same issues off the forum ... I don't know. I'm just giving you food for thought. An idea might be to test this theory, and live 6 months or more dressed (in public only) in standard clothing to see if your prospects with GGs improve. If they do then at least you'll know for sure it is all about the clothes and not personality conflicts. But, if things don't change, then you might need to look a little deeper than society's bias against gender non-conformity.

I don't mean to offend you by saying this. I'm merely proposing an objective test to pinpoint what the issue might be.

[t-girlxsophie]

First I want to say everyone's experiences are different, so I'm not discounting yours. I think it depends on how it is approached and the child, and possible, the age of the child. My teen is very accepting and was not upset or traumatized at all

Yes I agree,as I said in my post,my stepkids have no problems at all having Sophie around,because they knew from the start,all im saying is people should tread lightly,it can go wrong,just as easy.i know this so well from my experience of NOT telling

[Pythos]

"we also have tons of posts from members here who HAVE come out to their wives and life is even better than before. Why don't you talk about those posts too?
"

Pure and simple. Because those are not problematic. Those couples are behaving nicely toward one another. I am dealing with the people that threaten to divorce, expose, and other wise ruin someone for dressing.

As far as what you said about why I am single. I know the reason, and no it is not my dressing. It is because I am painfully shy, and to boot, my work schedule conflicts greatly with a social life. I could have my self a rip roaring relationship, if I was into rape fantasy and other not so great stuff to me. My jobs are not good meeting places. At my flying school it is crassly stated as "a sausage fest". The women are usually already "hooked up", or are near unapproachable due to the crap they have gone through from men in aviation.

I have gone several months in "normal" clothing...to no avail. So maybe you are right. Ah well.

But I will ask. Why do people focus on those four lines? What about the POINT of that post?

[Cassandra90]

Fear for sure. After a divorce almost 5 years ago, I got into a relationship with a gal that I had know for years even before the marriage. I had lost all contact with her until after the divorce. She was alot more open than the gal I had been married to. I had moved in with my girlfriend and things were great. I was starting to have better self esteem as well. Yet, after having spent 13 years being in the LDS Church, it's has a way to pull you back in my case. The guilt of my daughter loosing her feeling safe in our "perfect" marriage. And, guilt only comes from sin. I'm still trying to balance the guilt of sin vs self acceptance. Between that guilt and still the fear of being a crossdresser/tg woman, I got out of the relationship. Now, I wish I could get back with the girlfriend I had and just open up. Fear, to me, is definitely coming from religious and societal standards. So, how am I supposed to fit in to these standards that don't fit for me?