Why do many women reject CDs?

[Valerie Nova]

I'm sure there are a bunch of reasons why women often reject their boyfriends or husbands when they find out they're crossdressing. I'll list some of the obvious ones here:

Women typically want manly men, and this new knowledge makes their men seem a lot less masculine in their eyes.
Women have more of a problem with the dishonesty, and guys should be upfront with this information when they enter a relationship.
Many women prefer traditional gender roles, and having their man acting like a woman freaks them out.

All of these may be true in some cases, but I think another part has to do with how men and women approach problems and deal with their feelings. If a woman has something bothering her, she'll talk with her mother, her sister, her friends, her boyfriend/husband, etc. That just what women do. They don't usually understand that men have a hard time sharing their problems and feelings, and it's hard for women to understand why a guy would wear women's clothes in secret. A woman's first reaction might be to think the guy is creepy and pathetic. Creepy because he's so secretive about it, and pathetic because of what he's being so secretive about. If a guy's keeping some big secret from his woman, she'd probably rather it be something cool like that he used to be in the mafia. And of course, people tend to be afraid of things they don't understand, and crossdressing is something hard for women to understand.

Now, famous crossdressers like Eddie Izzard and the Monty Python guys, who appear publically dressed as both men and women, aren't creepy or pathetic at all to women. It would stand to reason that if a woman found out her guy participated in amateur drag shows and other venues that encourage crossdressing, that might seem weird to her, but she certainly wouldn't freak out like she would if she walked in on him in drag. At the very least, it'd reveal a lot of self-confidence, which virtually all women are attracted to.

So, if a guy wants to come out to his woman but hasn't yet, why not start going to these sorts of events and then tell her about them? It would certainly help her to think of crossdressing as more of a hobby than a sexual deviancy.

[SweetPea_GG]

You make some good points here. But I also think there is a different side too. Its different if a woman knows of a man who CD's which is not her SO (like famous ppl you mentioned) who has been hiding it. there are a lot more different feelings when its in your own back yard then if its someone across the way. Like me personally I may be 2 faced but others I am perfectly fine with CDing but my own husband.. I am having a bit harder time with. I am not sure if its cause he didnt come out at tell me early on and that after 15yrs marriage and 19yrs total together i find out on my own.. Maybe things would of been different if he would of told me years ago.. its kinda like all thoes years the wool was pulled over my eyes to what I thought was to be true in my marriage.

[Stephanie Miller]

So what I think I'm reading SweetPe, is that you are using the distaste of your husbands CD'ing as the vehicle for venting your anger for his deceiving /hiding the CD’ing. Not necessarily the CD’ing itself – or you really wouldn’t like it in anyone. But since you don’t really mind it in others then you might not mind it in your husband IF you could direct the anger ( or get through it) where it should be directed in the first place. Of course then you would end up sharing the make-up putting a run in each others nylons etc. etc.:doh: So with that in mind…. What the hell, maybe your right to stay the course.
I know I’m probably full of hot air ( wife says it to me all the time) but it was just a thought.

[SweetPea_GG]

No I dont think I am using it as a way to vent anger for the deceiving. Cause in my mind what I always dreams of as a little girl was llike a fiary tale.. and yes as a adult i know the marriage cant be a fairy tale 24x7.. but I never pictured myself with a man who liked to wear womens clothing. Im not 100% comfortable with the idea of "my" husband dressing cause thats not what I imagined when I married my husband and had children with my hsuband. I know it doesnt change him as a person but its the small things it brings up which I dont find attractive on a man I am in love with... its really hard to explain but in my future or near future i dont think i could share thoes items with him as you state.. cause well like many SO's have said before "its not what i signed up for when I took my vows with him.. when I fell in love with who he made me think he was"

idk i probably confused everyone more sorry

[Valerie Nova]

For me, the best way to stop being so ashamed and secretive about crossdressing was to show up in drag to costume parties, or go to the drag shows that the local lesbian bar put on. If anyone questioned this, my answer was usually "Oh, I'm having WAY more fun than I should be!" And that was that. People knew about it without me having to make any embarassing personal revelations. And I was able to come to terms with it too, as being something odd but harmless.

[PortiaHoney]

There have been a lot of good points raised above. But, I have another twist on this too..

i used to be a straight male with bisexual leanings. Ie, my partners were exclusively female and a passing curiosity in some males (never fully acted upon).

During my transition, I had the freedom to explore my sexuality and found my interest in women wained but my interest in men took it's place. As I was transitioning, I also had the opportunity to have CD "encounters". Logically, one would think being TG myself and being understanding of CD issues that a CD'ing male would be ideal. Someone who is happy to be a part time female and remain male for the most part as most CD'ers do.

BUT, I found that not to be the case for me. I actually want a "man" in my life and not one who likes to throw on a dress for a bit of fun or "whatever". I know I will be accused of being hypocritical on this, but it is the way I am. It has nothing to do with education or knowledge. I know that it is the "person" who is important and not the "activity" or "presentation". But, the fact remains, I am not attracted to someone who CD's. I have tried to work around this as it would "fix" a lot of issues, but the issue still remains.

So, if a "man" wants to finally come out to his partner of X years, there are so many more risks to the relationship than we are prepared to admit to. Being CD, in addition to being dishonest, hiding and ashamed for "X" years, may actually be the final cruncher. AND, it's not about the sharing of clothes, makeup etc. It's about the person themselves. How many who CD want to take on the male AND female roles in the bedroom? Every CD I have met ALWAYS at some point, wants to take on the female role. "OK. I've been the man for you. It's now my turn!"????? Maybe it's because of my male past that this happens. But I have also had the opportunity to talk to some GG partners of CD's and they always ask me the same thing. "Do my partners ever want to swap roles?". Some are OK with it, but some are really put off by it. It's mainly in the "frequency" and "seriousness" of the requests. Every time is a bit of a no no.

So, how many CD's shoot themselves in the foot, so to speak? They finally win an inch - but how far do they want to stretch that inch? AND, why does it come as such a surprise to many of us that their "female" partners don't want to "share" their own femininity? For 5, 10, 15 years they have been the "woman" of the house and now their lying, deceitful partner discloses that they have been hiding/in denial for all those years wants her to, not only accept this revelation, but to actively encourage it and help?????

Because, in many instances, it is new and exciting, if your partner does try to understand, then YOU don't know where to stop. "I want to try wearing women's shoes because I think I would like to!" to "I want to wear them all the time!" is a huge leap. And throw in that "I don't feel like a complete human being because I can't wear women's shoes all the time!". A realtionship has to be pretty darn strong to survive any of this. It can happen. Sure. But, don't be surprised if she does walk away.

I'm quoting MtF Cd'ing here because the FtM's don't have this issue. They can throw on a pair of jeans, get their haircut and chances are "He" may like "Her" taking the initiative in the bedroom.

[SweetPea_GG]

There have been a lot of good points raised above. But, I have another twist on this too..


I want to say i loved your post and i think you explained some things better then I could of :) lol

[Steph.TS]

i see a serious problem with publicly CD'ing in shows when you haven't come out first, you are going behind her back CD'in publically and you come out and tell her you've done this she'd likey perceive it as deceitful (by not telling her first) and humiliating (her man being womanly and doing so publicly) I think the best solution is if you are in a relationship be honest, the relationship might end, but it might become stronger, it depends on what kind of woman you are in a relationship with.

[PortiaHoney]

No I dont think I am using it as a way to vent anger for the deceiving. Cause in my mind what I always dreams of as a little girl was llike a fiary tale.. and yes as a adult i know the marriage cant be a fairy tale 24x7.. but I never pictured myself with a man who liked to wear womens clothing. Im not 100% comfortable with the idea of "my" husband dressing cause thats not what I imagined when I married my husband and had children with my hsuband. I know it doesnt change him as a person but its the small things it brings up which I dont find attractive on a man I am in love with... its really hard to explain but in my future or near future i dont think i could share thoes items with him as you state.. cause well like many SO's have said before "its not what i signed up for when I took my vows with him.. when I fell in love with who he made me think he was"

idk i probably confused everyone more sorry

I'm with you on this. DON'T apologise for how you feel, so long as you are honest about it. Honesty and openness is the best way to deal with this situation. I know I am going to be poo pooed for saying this, but you are expressing what a lot of GG's feel about their partner's CD'ing. It really is the "little" things that add up. And to be told that it was "only a joke" which is what they usually say, but it does nothing to ease the pain of those little barbs that really do hurt. And to try to dismiss those little things they do on purpose - just so YOU "remember" that they like to wear "your" clothes all the flamin time - just makes it so much worse. How dare they try to make you out to be the "bad guy" while they are just passing an innocent little joke! I know - I've done it.

AND - this post is asking "why do many women reject CD's?" It's not about how comfortable you feel to be you or being ashamed.

[Pythos]

"BUT, I found that not to be the case for me. I actually want a "man" in my life and not one who likes to throw on a dress for a bit of fun or "whatever"."

So what exactly is "a man"

and yes you do sound hypocritical, if you were a CD, but instead you are a female that was born male.

Now, as far as the fairy tail was concerned. When those fairy tails were made...women...were...nothing. They could not even vote. They were looked on as property, and in many ways treated as such.

On another view. What about what men back then invisioned when it came to their woman. A woman that was obedient, did everything she was told, took care of the house, did the garden, cleaned the clothes, oh and bared many children, in other words a good little slave. That was the notion of a good woman to men in those times. Yes there were the freaks of nature that looked at women as equals and did not treat them like that, but for the most part what I mentioned was the way of things.

That fairy tale has thankfully gone away...well at least in most areas of the world. So when I see a someone bringing up the fairy tale image of a man, it is jaring. Oh and those fairy tale men....they had long hair, wore tights, riding boots, and really fancy shirts and jackets. LOL

[SweetPea_GG]

On another view. What about what men back then invisioned when it came to their woman. A woman that was obedient, did everything she was told, took care of the house, did the garden, cleaned the clothes, oh and bared many children, in other words a good little slave. That was the notion of a good woman to men in those times. Yes there were the freaks of nature that looked at women as equals and did not treat them like that, but for the most part what I mentioned was the way of things.


Hmm I was a house wife taking care of our 3 children for 15yrs.. I took care of the house cleaned it washed the clothes got his clothes ready for him made the meals.. gave birth to all 3 of thoes children and made sure he was happy all thoes years.. so I guess I took on that role then.. to a point it still happens today.. and it seems like every topic on how GG's feel you always seem to bring up how awful it was back then and how women were treated then etc so we should be happy with what we have now..

and a fairy tale is different in everyones opinion.. what someone might like and dream of isnt the same as another.. a fair tale is something you dream of.. happy moments.. not always what you think you see in movies..

[Stephanie Anne]

Fear of homosexuality in themselves.. No other reason.

[Lucy_Bella]

Because they are selfish , egatistacal , onesided , closed mind species..But I love em..

[PortiaHoney]

and it seems like every topic on how GG's feel you always seem to bring up how awful it was back then and how women were treated then etc so we should be happy with what we have now..


And it seems men will remain men regardless of the clothes they wear. LOL.

And, it is not regarding a "fairy tale". It's just the gender roles inside a loving relationship and how they relate to the people in that relationship. When your "man" tells you "he" wants "you" to treat him like a woman - I don't think he was referring to taking away his right to vote! "He" might want you to treat him like a "Slave" ergo by your reasoning "a woman", but I still know that is not what "he" is referring to! Yes, "he' may want you to tell him to do the housework and be a good little "wife", but how is this empowering you as a woman? "He" is still dictating the terms. And, why does it usually includes a French Maid outfit to boot!

I'm sorry. I seem to be really putting the knockers on my own past. If you ever want to really know how the other half live and not just "fantasize" about it, it's quite simple - just do it. Reality is a wonderful thing. Fantasy is ok, but just don't be overly surprised when your partner doesn't share it. In so many instances, your SO did not actually go looking for a man who likes wearing women's clothes. So, yes, she may understand, she may not. If she encourages you, it's not because "she" wants you to do this, but because she understands "your" need to do this.

So, when taking into account women's feelings on this subject, please don't be so condescending as to quote "Victorian" ideals of what a man or woman are and how far we have come. It really is an insult. Things may be more equal than those days, but, I can tell you this, society still has it's barriers and limits for women. They are more discrete than the "olden days", but they still exist.

As for me, I accept the terms and limitations of my transition. I also accept that I have not had the opportunity to experience a complete life as a GG would. This, however, does highlight to me the hidden differences that so many GG's actually never get to realise - which is probably a good thing for men. They already complain that women have too many rights. In an ideal world everybody would be equal. But, we live in a real world, with real people, with real fears, hopes, ideas and prejudices.

[Amanda22]

Now, as far as the fairy tail was concerned. When those fairy tails were made...women...were...nothing. They could not even vote. They were looked on as property, and in many ways treated as such.

Pythos, I love your posts. You are quite insightful. Thank you.

[SweetPea_GG]

your SO did not actually go looking for a man who likes wearing women's clothes. So, yes, she may understand, she may not. If she encourages you, it's not because "she" wants you to do this, but because she understands "your" need to do this.


love this statement! and so true on many levels. :clap:

[Karren H]

The better question is how do you change their opinion of crossdressers so they don't hate us?

[Pythos]

What women have now is lightyears better than the time those fairy tales were made. I think it is fine when a woman voluntarially takes that role that you did, and good for you for doing it. I hope your children appreciate it. But I think it is lousy when those roles are nothing less than forced upon people by society.

When I read of a woman "hapilly" taking care of the man, making sure his clothes are just right, and generally pleasing him, that hits me as a form of Happy slavery. I know that is a new age way of thinking but that is what I see. I don't know your whole story though. YOu happily did this for 15 years. So what about the other 20 or so? Unless you are under 40 years of age.

If it seems I always bring up how women were treated, I indeed do. I do so because women in general want to hold men to those old ideals, and yet want the freedom they for the most part have now.

Don't get me wrong. I want everyone to have freedom, which is why I get upset when I hear of women getting upset when men "infringe" upon their territory, such as fashion, style, and other such things. You yourself may not do that, but I have read of many women doing that.

Wait a minute. 3 children for 15 years? That does not work out. Did your kids leave the house at less than 19 years of age? was that a typo? Or did something happen?

[SweetPea_GG]

What women have now is lightyears better than the time those fairy tales were made. I think it is fine when a woman voluntarially takes that role that you did, and good for you for doing it. I hope your children appreciate it. But I think it is lousy when those roles are nothing less than forced upon people by society.

When I read of a woman "hapilly" taking care of the man, making sure his clothes are just right, and generally pleasing him, that hits me as a form of Happy slavery. I know that is a new age way of thinking but that is what I see. I don't know your whole story though. YOu happily did this for 15 years. So what about the other 20 or so? Unless you are under 40 years of age.

If it seems I always bring up how women were treated, I indeed do. I do so because women in general want to hold men to those old ideals, and yet want the freedom they for the most part have now.

Don't get me wrong. I want everyone to have freedom, which is why I get upset when I hear of women getting upset when men "infringe" upon their territory, such as fashion, style, and other such things. You yourself may not do that, but I have read of many women doing that.

Wait a minute. 3 children for 15 years? That does not work out. Did your kids leave the house at less than 19 years of age? was that a typo? Or did something happen?

yes I am udner 40.. :) ive been being a mom/wife for over 1/2 my life.. (Without going to much into my past we had my oldest son when I was 15 almost 16)..my oldest is now well almost 17 then a 14yo and a 12yo.. so when I say I stayed home to care for them I ment when they were younger and before I started working full time which I just started this past Aug.. before then I was a house wife.. now I still do all of those things I mentioned and I hold a full time job.. so really I have 2 full time jobs.. although being a mommy is more like 24x7 job lol So that also explains your last question of 3 children and 15yrs of marriage.. we have been together for almost 20yrs though (20yrs this august..highschool sweethearts)

[Pythos]

KK, that explains it.

Actually it explains a lot.

I am an odd ball because I personally think both parents should be home sharing those duties. They should be taking care of those kids those first years. I know it is not realistic, but I really hated my dad having to leave in the morning, and not coming home till 6. It sucked cause I only saw him when he was angry from a day of work.

I hope that when I find a wife we share responsibilities as close to equally as possible, especially if she has a job.

congrats on sticking in there. Far better than some of my friend's parents.

[SweetPea_GG]

KK, that explains it.

Actually it explains a lot.

I am an odd ball because I personally think both parents should be home sharing those duties. They should be taking care of those kids those first years. I know it is not realistic, but I really hated my dad having to leave in the morning, and not coming home till 6. It sucked cause I only saw him when he was angry from a day of work.

I hope that when I find a wife we share responsibilities as close to equally as possible, especially if she has a job.

congrats on sticking in there. Far better than some of my friend's parents.


yeah it wasnt easy especially being so young and having to basically grow up over night and care for a someone other then myself. Most the the time I felt like a single parent. Since my husband joined the military when my oldest was only 1 1/2 or 2 he was gone A LOT.. and deployed a lot too.. so I took on both roles while he was away.. I think my boys kinda suffered from that cause they didnt have their dad around to do guy stuff with them.. as much as I tried to fill in that slot I know its not the same..

*sorry for taking the thread off topic a bit*

[Toronto Kristen]

Fear of homosexuality in themselves.. No other reason.

Or could it be that they are scared of not being the prettiest woman in the relationship?:):straightface:

[PortiaHoney]

Ok. I am going off topic too


I am an odd ball because I personally think both parents should be home sharing those duties.

I agree BUT who is paying the bills? Raising kids is not cheap. I put off transitioning for years for the sake of my kids. Now I am broke and they only barely talk to me. Sorry, but this IS a real world.

End of rant!

[PortiaHoney]

Or could it be that they are scared of not being the prettiest woman in the relationship?:):straightface:

Woops - got that one LOL

[daphne_pynk]

I've talk a fair bit with my partner about this and we sat down and did the 20 questions. Here were the general questions and statements that came out of it.

Are you gay?
do you want to change your plumbing down there?
does this make me a lesbo?
you better not look better then me
so....what else are you hiding?

the basic dynamic with men and woman as i understand it is woman are the objects of desire that men pursue them or prove they are worthy of their affection (alpha male yada yada). when you throw a CD in in the mixed then you have two objects of desire. GG's tend to feel uncomfortable and uninterested in being the aggressive person so its almost like a stale mate (pun intended), no one is moving to pursue.

I find myself often feeling ridiculously selfish being who i am, i have deep seated emotional issues and now i'm making my partner deal with it and i don't know anyone that would want to sign up for that. It did become all about me.....cuz i'm the only one with the dressing issue in the relationship.
I was told by a therapist that CD's in general focus almost entirely on dressing and acting like a lady and thats a thin veil of what it really is to be a woman and may be viewed as a mocking satire of their strengths. Hollywood often portray one way to humiliate a man is to make him look like a woman..thats not very nice to to ladies either.

Ways I've found that have helped me:

1.Continue to pursue her, Make her feel loved and wanted and that you desire her, not just her closet full of awesome.
2. get a therapist...don't lay it all out on her. deal with your own deep seeded issues. then only talk about it if she asks.
3. If you've kept it hidden you need to build the trust back. her world just shattered. be completely honest from here on in.

so ya, my humble two cents

[DianeDeBris]

Wow - what a great thread! There are so many valid and well-expressed viewpoints here. My first thought (having read the entire thread two full times through) is that I will again read all the way through at least one more time tomorrow and try to map out the perspectives of the very many people who have contributed excellent insights. As a first small step, I do want to commend Portia for her absolutely *magnificent* insight when she wrote:
"If she encourages you, it's not because "she" wants you to do this, but because she understands "your" need to do this.
My own dear, beloved SO is not wild about this aspect of "me," this need of mine, this component of who I fundamentally am; but she loves me (I have *no* hope of ever "deserving this, but I'm coming to admit that it's really there and is not going away!) and she accepts that this is an aspect of me that is essential to me, and so she does the best she can to accept it and deal with it and accept it as part of who I am. I expect this is the case with many SO's, in that they may well wish their lives might have gone other ways, they might have chosen to love males who did not have this component to their personalities, but they accept that this is who we are, for better or worse, and they take that as part of the hand they (and we) have been dealt.
I'd also like to say is that I guffawed (not very ladylike, I know) at Daphne Pink's excellent line about the plight of any GW finding herself with a "stale mate." I love it!
Finally, thank you all for your wonderful, honest comments. This life of ours raises so many questions and so many issues, far more than I can enumerate here; please just know that I appreciate you all, I love you all, and I thank you all, from the very bottom of my heart.
Hugs -- Diane

[sherri]

Based on what I've heard and what I can imagine, I think a woman not finding a CDer physically and emotionally attractive is the number one deal-breaker, and, as has been said countless times, that isn't hard to understand -- all you have to do is turn the tables and see how you would like it.

But it's more than that, I think. There is the 800-pound gorilla of social stigma, the potential for scandal and ruin, how her femme husband reflects on her, etc.

[Pythos]

"the basic dynamic with men and woman as i understand it is woman are the objects of desire that men pursue them or prove they are worthy of their affection (alpha male yada yada). when you throw a CD in in the mixed then you have two objects of desire. GG's tend to feel uncomfortable and uninterested in being the aggressive person so its almost like a stale mate (pun intended), no one is moving to pursue."

Well this is what you have been fed from centuries of one main culture. But unfortunately not completely true.

In many cultures the man did not have to do squat to attract a female...he had to do stuff to impress the family of a female that was to be betrothed to him. In other words he had to meet their expectations in order for the daughter (often very young) to have ownership handed over to him. Yes I used owner ship. Marriage at first was a contract, not unlike a business contract. It was not about love. That is why there is the idea that the Groom's family pay for the wedding in our modern version of the ceremony. What we call marriage now a days, is NOTHING like it was when it was first conceived.

As far as women being objects...YES they were and are in our culture. The men did the heavy dangerous and dirty labor (well most did) and the women were not permitted to do the same because of their frail and fragile bodies.

The more you look at how the "norms" of society have come about, the more you realize that it is actually all a bunch of nonsense. Nonsense to put one sex over the other. I hightly encourage you all take a look at this stuff, and get some studies in comparative religions done. Your eyes will be open quite a bit.

"I was told by a therapist that CD's in general focus almost entirely on dressing and acting like a lady"

Get a new therapist.

[TGMarla]

SweetPe, your original post in answer to this thread could mirror my wife's feelings. I did not tell her I crossdressed when I married her, for fear of losing her. When she found out, it was a bit traumatic for her, for much the same reasons that you mentioned. She didn't sign up for this, and expected more traditional things from her marriage. She is a woman, and she's not homosexual. She likes men, and wants her man to want to be a man. That's really not asking for much, is it?

That said, this has never been something that I've been able to make go away. And it's likely to stay with me my whole life. But she wants nothing to do with it. So I keep it under wraps, and try never to put it out in front of her. She has her rights in this relationship, too. And as my wife, she has a right to a husband, which is what she DID sign up for. I respect that.

Women are subject to the same social programming that men are. And just as it took most of us years upon years to come to grips with our gender issues and our crossdressing, it could easily take women just as long, if not longer, to do the same. It is patently unfair for a CD to expect his wife to suddenly accept all of this as though everything was still "normal" in their relationship. Sure, we are still the same person as before she found this out, but her perception is now radically changed. Yet CDs still think she should take a week, and deal with it, and have everything be just as it had been all along. Sure, he gets years to deal with it; she gets a week.

Bottom line: most women expect their husbands to be men. And I may be a hypocrite for saying it, but I don't blame them one bit.

[Dena]

[If a woman has something bothering her, she'll talk with her mother, her sister, her friends, her boyfriend/husband, etc. That just what women do.

This is something many women don't have someone to discuss this with. If that's the case, she just got sucked into that closet.

[BRANDYJ]

There are many reasons for relationships to fail due to a man's need or desire to crossdress. Social and religious values established in even the youngest of girls. Add the shows like Jerry Springer that never fail to show crossdressing in a bad light. Even the uneducated tv shrink, so-called Dr. Phil that insulted and has harsh on both a woman and her crossdressing husband on one of his shows several years back would make anyone think crossdressing is sick, disgusting and just plain wrong. Also, as a male I want a feminine women, not a woman that dresses and acts like a man. So for me there would be no attraction to a woman that crossdresses. How hard is this to understand? Now add that many women learned by accident by either seeing pictures of her husband years after they were married or finding his stash of hidden clothes...Is it any wonder why all to many women are emotionally wounded by sneaking crossdressed husbands? Some would rather find out he had a one night stand then to find out he crossdresses.

Part of the mistake is on who we crossdressers become attracted to to begin with. In the process of dating and getting to know a woman, I think there are clues that she is the type of woman that would never accept crossdressing on the part of her husband or SO. Yet we let our lust or whatever continue to pursue her without thinking of what happens when she finds out after falling in love with us. I fulling understand how she must feel. Betrayed, lied to, your having a secret life and God knows what other secrets you have kept from her. And to add insult to injury, you are upset with her for not accepting your little innocent hobbie? Like someone else said, walk a mile in her footsteps...not her shoes.
For those CD's that want to fall in love and be loved, be careful of who you fall for. Be sure she is not hung up intolerant of various other lifestyles due to her upbringing or social experiences. Before you fall in love find out where she stands on gay, lesbian, BDSM or other alternate lifestyles. This will give you a clue of how she will accept your being a crossdresser before you fall in love with her and her fall for you. I have told not one, but 2 past wives about my being a CD. I was accepted and received nothing but understanding, love and later, even fun with both of them. But I did choose wisely about who I let myself fall in love with. If she was ultra religious, basically a judgmental or intolerant person, I would not have fallen for her or trusted in sharing about myself with her and moved on to find a woman that might not reject me for my being a CD. My present SO knew from day one since she found my profile on an alternate lifestyle site and saw my pictures both as male and as female. My being a CD was in fact part of the attraction to her.
So choose wisely who you date and who you can fall in love with. Both for your sake and hers.

[kristinacd55]

Marla's response could be a mirror of my wife.......she feels the same way although lately she's been more accepting of Kristina so there's still hope! :)

[jennifer24]

My g/f knew 11 years ago about my femme past, she even seen me dressed before we got togather, but thought id gave it up, boy was she wrong.
I did try to quit after we got togather but, as most of you know its hard & most cant, its a part of them.
Then I let here catch me dressed 1 day to see what she says, well it was not pleasent but she stayed with me, now as my femme side got stronger she has major issues with it., I understand her to a point but my question is if she knew before we got togather that I dressed why didnt she end it then, instead of putting us both through pain? I know she thought I had quit, maybe that was why but, when she seen me dressed 7 years ago she should have known then that I didn`t and ended it there.

[2SpeedTranny]

As far as women being objects...YES they were and are in our culture. The men did the heavy dangerous and dirty labor (well most did) and the women were not permitted to do the same because of their frail and fragile bodies.

The more you look at how the "norms" of society have come about, the more you realize that it is actually all a bunch of nonsense.


Pythos, you wonder why you're not beating women off with a stick... and then you post stuff like this.

If men and women were perfectly equal, and there were no need for division of labor, then we as a species wouldn't have two sexes to begin with... we'd just reproduce asexually somehow.

In case you were unaware, men cannot bear children. Given that simple biology limits the equality in that direction, I find it equally absurd to think that any woman can do anything any man can do.

And despite the bra-burning, fish-on-bicycles nonsense of the 60s, the modern "liberated" woman, generally speaking, is not in a terrible rush to work on crab boats or oil rigs. Whatever happened to chivalry? The notion that we men would do the hard work, simply because we were more capable of it physically?

We don't expect everyone to perform the same tasks in a society. Some people are engineers, some are bankers, some are garbagemen. You don't do the same job as your neighbor. So why would anyone think men and women (in general, or in a couple) should do the same things?

Despite the rabid feminists, men and women still pretty much look for the same things in a mate they always have. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with society. It means the feminists were wrong.


And now, to tie this back in to the OP... it's not crossdressing itself that the hypothetical women are hypothetically rejecting. It's the baggage that comes with it. You still have to be her protector; skilled, strong, and confident; whether you wear shining armor or a prom dress.

[Pythos]

I am confused by your first line. I don't think I ever said men and women were equal. I do think they can do much the same things as one another aside from child birth and breast feeding. How does posting a fact make me undesirable? This was a fact. I never said everyone should perform the same tasks. I do think that people should not be limited from what they want to do based on their sex.

But, your statement about "rabid feminists" illustrates your knowledge base on the subject. People will stay in their comfort zone, and many, when they step out, will wonder why they stayed in.

Now your last statement is probably the most applicable one in this entire post. Yes you still have to protect As far as the baggage though, who packs those bags?

[cordgrass]

The better question is how do you change their opinion of crossdressers so they don't hate us?

Women form their opinions in community, particularly about what sort of man is attractive. That's why there is groupthink about George Clooney, Brad Pitt, etc., being the "sexiest man alive." If some popular heart throbs came out of the closet, say if Johnny Depp, Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise came out of the closet, or now Kelsey Grammer--not saying they are CD's, but if they were and they outed themselves, that might go a good way to changing the opinion of women in general. Also if women in positions of community leadership felt comfortable voicing their opinions about the attractiveness and normalcy of crossdressers, that might help too.

[Valerie Nova]

Women form their opinions in community, particularly about what sort of man is attractive. That's why there is groupthink about George Clooney, Brad Pitt, etc., being the "sexiest man alive." If some popular heart throbs came out of the closet, say if Johnny Depp, Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise came out of the closet, or now Kelsey Grammer--not saying they are CD's, but if they were and they outed themselves, that might go a good way to changing the opinion of women in general. Also if women in positions of community leadership felt comfortable voicing their opinions about the attractiveness and normalcy of crossdressers, that might help too.
Three cheers for Eddie Izzard! :D

[sometimes_miss]

This topic has been done to death. Try using the search feature on these forums, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of posts on threads like this.
Basically: Women are attracted to alpha male traits, because historically that gave them the best chance to have their offspring (and themselves) survive. Most men display at least some of those traits. Women rely on men for protection and support, either consciously or subconsciously. Men who display lots of femininity automatically become suspect about our ability to do those two things, and are also automatically considered unstable because being feminine is not considered normal behavior for males. That eliminates any sexual attraction and/or desire to have us father kids (always also a subconscious thought process for nearly all women when choosing a mate). Also, stereotypical behavior/appearances are like that for a reason; they are by (by nature's process of elimination) designed to attract the opposite sex. When we behave in a female manner or dress to look female, we are not doing what is necessary to attract most women (I'm talking about greater than the 99th percentage here).
And that pretty much covers it. You can get into other reasons, but the aforementioned is quite enough to kill off attraction to us for nearly all women.

[Michelle.M]

I actually want a "man" in my life and not one who likes to throw on a dress for a bit of fun or "whatever". I know I will be accused of being hypocritical on this, but it is the way I am.

I don't think it's hypocritical at all. Many people on this forum who are CD present themselves as heterosexuals, and that makes perfect sense. They all state that they prefer women, and for the lucky ones they have one who supports them.

But others are transgendered, and I think that interest in a masculine man is part of what defines TG, at least for many of us.

PLEASE don't flame me if you are TG and have no interest in men. I understand that and respect that too.

I have not been with a man (yet), and I am not interested in gay men because the kind of man I find attractive likes women. As long as I am living inside this male package those types of men are off limits to me.

[Lucy_Bella]

I don't think it's hypocritical at all. Many people on this forum who are CD present themselves as heterosexuals, and that makes perfect sense. They all state that they prefer women, and for the lucky ones they have one who supports them.

But others are transgendered, and I think that interest in a masculine man is part of what defines TG, at least for many of us.

PLEASE don't flame me if you are TG and have no interest in men. I understand that and respect that too.

I have not been with a man (yet), and I am not interested in gay men because the kind of man I find attractive likes women. As long as I am living inside this male package those types of men are off limits to me.

I think you are mis informed with your termonoligy.. TG = Crossdresser need I say more?.. They are one in the same ..

[Areyan]

ok, as a former GG with a CD turned MTF TS, i have to give you my answer as bluntly as i possibly can. orientation is something that can't be changed for a lot of people. CDs can kid themselves all they like that they are heterosexual men but when those heels and dresses go on, these fellas really think they're being women. what do you think that makes a woman feel? it makes her feel queer and disgusting being with someone who isn't completely straight. i know some women here (like our lovely cordgrass are into CDs and this doesn't put her off) but she is unique in that way. for dyed-in-the-wool straight women their male partner cross dressing as a woman makes them highly uncomfortable. the fact that a lot of CDs try to hide it and closet themselves is testament to the straight women they hook up with - if she doesn't know it's one hell of a shock to find out she was wrong about her man. and no, i'm not calling CDs gay, but it does boggle a straight partner's mind to try to understand why their so-called straight male partner wants to emulate the female gender.

[Michelle.M]

I think you are mis informed with your termonoligy.. TG = Crossdresser need I say more?.. They are one in the same ..

Um, OK.... if you really want to quibble about definitions that's fine. I think you missed my point. I was merely trying to differentiate between CDs who are not interested in transition and trans [fill in the blank] who are.

This from the APA website -

"Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender identity (sense of themselves as male or female) or gender expression differs from that usually associated with their birth sex. Many transgender people live part-time or full-time as members of the other gender. Broadly speaking, anyone whose identity, appearance, or behavior falls outside of conventional gender norms can be described as transgender. However, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-atypical will identify as a transgender person."

So, based on the criteria of gender expression you're right, but only if the gender atypical person accepts that description for himself or herself.

Sorry if I offended you.

[Lucy_Bella]

Um, OK.... if you really want to quibble about definitions that's fine. I think you missed my point. I was merely trying to differentiate between CDs who are not interested in transition and trans [fill in the blank] who are.

No Offence taken..

BTW the ones who do want to Transition are either pre op Transexual or Transexual..

[juno]

... I do think they can do much the same things as one another aside from child birth and breast feeding.
Men can breast feed. Some men have reported being able to produce enough milk to sustain a baby. It is hard to know how many men are capable, because not that many actually try.

[Valerie Nova]

it does boggle a straight partner's mind to try to understand why their so-called straight male partner wants to emulate the female gender.
Often, when I'm looking particularly good, my brain will tell itself "Oh yeah! I'd so do me!" It doesn't make much sense, but then neither do most of the things our brains come up with. Maybe my brain loves women's fashion and doesn't feel fulfilled from enjoying it vicariously. I mean, as soon as I make room for some more clothes in my duffel bag, I get so excited thinking of what I should look for to create new, exciting outfits out of the clothes I already have. Of course, I'm not that interested in acting like and passing for a feminine woman, or creating a whole new alternate personality for this woman.

I think a lot of CDs liken themselves to lipstick lesbians when they're in drag. ;)

[Frédérique]

Whatever happened to chivalry?

I’m practicing chivalry as you read this. Since I’m not a GG, I’m not going to speculate on how or why GG’s think, behave, or act the way they do. The entire exercise is pointless, if you ask me. In threads of this nature, it’s only a matter of time before the really opinionated GG’s arrive on the scene and insert themselves into the “discussion” at hand. After this brief response, I’ll sit this one out, thank you…


Women form their opinions in community, particularly about what sort of man is attractive.

To “fit in,” I assume, but you're making a generalization...


I think a lot of CDs liken themselves to lipstick lesbians when they're in drag.

Not me. That IS a drag…:naughty

[Lucy_Bella]

ok, as a former GG with a CD turned MTF TS, i have to give you my answer as bluntly as i possibly can. orientation is something that can't be changed for a lot of people. CDs can kid themselves all they like that they are heterosexual men but when those heels and dresses go on, these fellas really think they're being women. what do you think that makes a woman feel? it makes her feel queer and disgusting being with someone who isn't completely straight. i know some women here (like our lovely cordgrass are into CDs and this doesn't put her off) but she is unique in that way. for dyed-in-the-wool straight women their male partner cross dressing as a woman makes them highly uncomfortable. the fact that a lot of CDs try to hide it and closet themselves is testament to the straight women they hook up with - if she doesn't know it's one hell of a shock to find out she was wrong about her man. and no, i'm not calling CDs gay, but it does boggle a straight partner's mind to try to understand why their so-called straight male partner wants to emulate the female gender.

To correct you on your mis informed belief that Cders act like a woman when dressed as a woman is completly false.. Now I am not saying all do not as there are many different levels to the Cding spectrume.. It seems as if you are judgeing your opinion from your MTF soon to trasition partner , yes most T.S 's are likely to express their femme side even when not emulating a female because they feel they are a female already.

I have never once showed any femme activities in dressing other than appearance ..I walk like a male, I talk like a male and yes even think like a male,I just look pretty doing it :)

[busker]

Basically: Women are attracted to alpha male traits, because historically that gave them the best chance to have their offspring (and themselves) survive. Most men display at least some of those traits. Women rely on men for protection and support, either consciously or subconsciously. Men who display lots of femininity automatically become suspect about our ability to do those two things, and are also automatically considered unstable because being feminine is not considered normal behavior for males.

In the natural world, this is not necessarily true at all. You are speaking about a world (our world) that is so hand in glove with religious teachings, and a lot of mumbo-jumbo regarding marriage that it is difficult to see that as a real act of "natural selection".
There are many animals where the female is drab and the male is brightly colored or greatly differentiated in some way. (the animal equivalent of a CD possibly)
Male Bower birds for example are chosen as a mate based on their ability to build and decorate a bower, and they are very good with amazing "artistic tastes" . Once the female is happy with her choice, she mates and she's gone, leaving the male to entice and mate up with another female. She is not interested in his bower per se, (just his brains, his engineering skills and his artistry and if she likes his bower, she knows that he is THE ONE for her).

Many female animal species don't even have a "protector"--they raise their offspring alone (human equivalent lesbian mothers, gay fathers who've adopted), and some even abandon them altogether for another species to raise (human children up for adoption or abandoned).

Humans have such enormous baggage about what is and what isn't that it is difficult at best to say what people really want and look for in a mate. Obviously we haven't figured it out yet, since 50% of marriages end in divorce and most second marriages end in divorce (because people have a tendencey to choose "not wisely" the second time around either). Now we have the internet where people will choose based on some kind of "profile", true or not, mate, sight unseen! Now there is really chosing for the alpha-male!!!!
You chose the word "historically" , and in truth "nature" might be a better choice of word when we choose partners for offspring. That's the biological imperative. A successful male will father strong, sucessful children.
Because we are conditioned in many ways, some very subtle and some not so. and also, you need to specify to which culture your words apply, because like the rest of non-human nature, it does make a difference.
There is a lot of what sociologists and psychiatrists tell us of marriage, but we have all seen the knock-out woman who could write her own check and whose mate looks like some neanderthal, and works at the water processing plant.(no offense to those that do that work or the women who chose them) What was she thinking about? Or women who marry abusers or what have you. The alpha-male thing just doesn't really supply the answer. People (human animal) choose someone based on "something" else within them, and it isn't always rationalized as a protector and father and bread winner.
That's my opinion, any way.

[Lucy_Bella]

Although I like the enology, not all species act in this manner . Human nature looking back at older civilizations , Transgenders did exist and where part of the community.. American Indians welcomed transgendered males to stay behind while wars or hunts took place to look after the tribe along with the elders..They were treated with respect and often assited in child care..

Renaissance era , to be Transgendered was socially accepted in the upper class realm of society with the prevledged..

Its funny how we have gone full circle to where the main attraction for a female is a Neanderthal ..

[JustineFallow]

Often, when I'm looking particularly good, my brain will tell itself "Oh yeah! I'd so do me!" It doesn't make much sense, but then neither do most of the things our brains come up with. Maybe my brain loves women's fashion and doesn't feel fulfilled from enjoying it vicariously. I mean, as soon as I make room for some more clothes in my duffel bag, I get so excited thinking of what I should look for to create new, exciting outfits out of the clothes I already have. Of course, I'm not that interested in acting like and passing for a feminine woman, or creating a whole new alternate personality for this woman.

I think a lot of CDs liken themselves to lipstick lesbians when they're in drag. ;)

This is almost exactly my position on the matter, and I'm quite irritated that I didn't have the chance to post it first! :Angry3:

[Eryn]

...when those heels and dresses go on, these fellas really think they're being women.

Please don't tell me what I think, especially when you're wrong.

[cordgrass]

i know some women here (like our lovely cordgrass are into CDs and this doesn't put her off) but she is unique in that way. for dyed-in-the-wool straight women their male partner cross dressing as a woman makes them highly uncomfortable. the fact that a lot of CDs try to hide it and closet themselves is testament to the straight women they hook up with - if she doesn't know it's one hell of a shock to find out she was wrong about her man. and no, i'm not calling CDs gay, but it does boggle a straight partner's mind to try to understand why their so-called straight male partner wants to emulate the female gender.

um....no. I'm hardly unique. Case in point...arguably one of the most desired men nowadays is desired while dressed like this:

http://www.digital-digest.com/blog/DVDGuy/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jack_sparrow.jpg

It just needs a small change in perception on the part of women, I believe, to make it more publicly acceptable to like femme men.

[BRANDYJ]

Some women here (like our lovely cordgrass are into CDs and this doesn't put her off) but she is unique in that way. for dyed-in-the-wool straight women their male partner cross dressing as a woman makes them highly uncomfortable. the fact that a lot of CDs try to hide it and closet themselves is testament to the straight women they hook up with - if she doesn't know it's one hell of a shock to find out she was wrong about her man. and no, i'm not calling CDs gay, but it does boggle a straight partner's mind to try to understand why their so-called straight male partner wants to emulate the female gender.

The above paints a picture of women with a broad brush. I disagree. IF everything else is going good in the relationship and it is based on love, honesty, trust and open communication, I think many women can deal with it if not embrace it. Many will accept it with various limitations and boundaries including never wanting to see their man dressed or be asked to participate. But they will give him space to do his thing within her comfort level. But love is a strong emotion that allows us to accept things we otherwise would not want any part of.


um....no. I'm hardly unique. Case in point...arguably one of the most desired men nowadays is desired while dressed like this:
It just needs a small change in perception on the part of women, I believe, to make it more publicly acceptable to like femme men.

I fully agree. most women that are not stubbornly opinionated, overly judgmental, or overly religious can and do come to terms with her mate's crossdressing. Our Forums are full of them. In my own experience, I have found acceptance by 2 past wives and my current SO; Not to mention more then a handful of GG friends I have told about my crossdressing and in doing so, made those friendships stronger and closer.

[Toronto Kristen]

IF everything else is going good in the relationship and it is based on love, honesty, trust and open communication,

most women that are not stubbornly opinionated, overly judgmental, or overly religious can and do come to terms with her mate's crossdressing.
These two statements caught my eye and I would like to comment on them. I apologise if the comments extend beyond what people want to discuss on this forum, or they have been discussed before, or they should be in a separate thread.

Anyway, here goes. In my opinion, these comments address the funadamental principle behind a relationship/marriage. Historically, a marriage/relationship has been based on the need to procreate. This is best exemplified by the resistance to "gay" marriage by most religious bodies. If this is accepted as the definition of a marrauge/relationship, then crossdressing can be seen to be antithetical to that definition. If, however, the marriage/relationship is based on a partnership built on love, trust and respect, then crossdressing need not be a factor in the success of the partnership. The only qualification here is that hiding the crossdressing could/will strain the realtionship because is runs counter to the issue of trust.

[Maria_1969]

I think many women dont like it because they are insecure in themself and see a man as their foundation to feel security... acting fem disturbes that foundation they require or desire. Perhaps I have not had too many issues with my women in the past because I am a rough and tough guy to begin with and they can still see the man when I wear women's clothing. I do not change my voice or put on makeup.

Ever notice so many women like gay men or feminine men as long as its NOT THEIR man.

[DaphneGrey]

Fear of homosexuality in themselves.. No other reason.

I hadn't laughed so hard in months. I have never heard anything so silly.

[GingerLeigh]

Obvious reasons such as the deception, not what they signed up for etc... None of this would matter if not for the fact that society shuns those that do not follow the norm, particularly when it comes to blurring the gender lines.

I think it's the fear of having their friends or family find out that their significant other is what many perceive to be of as less than a man. It's not so much what they think of us as crossdressers. It's what others might think of us and by association, of them as well.

There are aspects of my crossdressing that are outwardly reflected in my personality of which I'm sure is part of what attracted my wife. I don't care for sports so I'm not glued to the TV every weekend, I'm sensitive/empathetic, I think only of our family and their needs, I share in the mundane duties of the home. What sane woman would reject those qualities or trade them for a much more manly man?

People talk of "fairy tale" lives and marrying manly men. "Fairy tales" are fiction with real princesses/royalty living on tabloids as more of a curiosity and a joke. Many marriages fail because... (following the traditional/stereotypical sense of what it is to be a man) the husbands are manly men.

Thinking rationally about it, I'm still just me. I'm not about to change that. It's just clothing expressing a more softer side of me, and I like it. Don't want to see it? No problem, I'll stay in the closet. Oh, please be a dear and close the door behind you.

Ginger

[Toronto Kristen]

What sane woman would reject those qualities or trade them for a much more manly man?

Many marriages fail because... (following the traditional/stereotypical sense of what it is to be a man) the husbands are manly men.

Ginger

Ginger,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, butwould like to address a couple of your comments. [These are my thoughts, so feel free to challenge them.]

(1) Many women (but not all) go for the manly Man because that is what society expects them to do, and they are scared of society's (and their family's) disapproval of not going for that image.

(2) With regard to marriages failing because of the manly Man husband, I agree that some marriages fail precisely because of it. However, I wonder how many marriages fail because the husband feels he has to play/portray that manly Man role when he is not that type? That is, do some marriages fail precisely because the men deceive themselves and their partner in trying to be the manly Man?

[Pythos]

Ginger,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, butwould like to address a couple of your comments. [These are my thoughts, so feel free to challenge them.]

(1) Many women (but not all) go for the manly Man because that is what society expects them to do, and they are scared of society's (and their family's) disapproval of not going for that image.

(2) With regard to marriages failing because of the manly Man husband, I agree that some marriages fail precisely because of it. However, I wonder how many marriages fail because the husband feels he has to play/portray that manly Man role when he is not that type? That is, do some marriages fail precisely because the men deceive themselves and their partner in trying to be the manly Man?

Oh....MY GOD!!! These are the most cogent reasons I have seen for this behavior, on both parts. There have been many times I have felt compelled to "act like a man" and give a fig about the results of sports game. The only sports I really like are those that involve machines and high speed. Sorry, I am a gear head as well. I appreciate football, and baseball, and love to play such (yes, I have played football, and had some leggings destroyed in the process :P), but I don't wear sports related clothing like jerseys, and such. I was rather perturbed when I saw the HUGE party that came out in San Francisco when the Giants won the world series. Not a few weeks before the voter turnout was abysmal, and yet ALL of these people show up for a sports team's victory parade. Talk about misplaced priorities.

I do think many men fall into the trap of being "manly men" based on stupid stereotypes, and many women fall for said "manly men" also based on stupid stereotypes and expectations. It is also little wonder the divorce rate is so high as well.

[GingerLeigh]

I do think many men fall into the trap of being "manly men" based on stupid stereotypes, and many women fall for said "manly men" also based on stupid stereotypes and expectations. It is also little wonder the divorce rate is so high as well.

I guess nobody can be who or what they really are. We are ALL hiding something of ourselves from everyone so we can live like "normal" people, whatever that is. Eventually we are found out (by our spouses) and our marriages either sink or float. What a sad existence.

So why do many women reject CD's? Expectations, fears, and stereotypes. Simple.

Ginger